Episode 9 - Parting the Binary: Let My Gender Flow - Prepared to Drown: Deep Dives into an Expansive Faith

Episode Transcript
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Bill (00:01):
Friends, there's a reason that Calgary holds its Pride
celebrations at the end ofAugust and not in the month of
June, like the rest of the world.
It's not because we're tryingto be fashionably late.
It's because every June,without fail, this province
throws a weather tantrum.
And so here in the city ofCalgary, as we gather tonight to
record this podcast, there is aweather advisory.
In effect, the rain is alreadyfalling and we are in a room

(00:21):
full of people who are wonderingif we brought the right shoes
and coats for liberation tonight.
But here we are, gatheredanyway, in the basement of a
church during Pride Month, totalk about faith and gender and
embodiment and what it means tounlearn all of those gods that
keep us small.
And, as always, we are going totry to do this unfiltered,
unedited and recorded live infront of a studio audience.

(00:42):
There are no do-overs here,just real conversation about a
God who won't be boxed in and alove that keeps breaking open
the boundaries.
You'll never walk on water ifyou're not prepared to drown.
I'm Bill Weaver and this isPrepared to Drown.
Let's dive in.
Welcome to another episode ofPrepared to Drown Deep Dives

(01:07):
into an Expanse of Faith.
We are here in June in PrideMonth in Calgary, alberta, in
the basement of McDougal UnitedChurch, on the Friday evening
before what is apparently goingto be a miniature summer
snowpocalypse here in southernAlberta, and we are gathered
here for our ninth episode,which is entitled Parting the

(01:28):
Binary, let my Gender Flow.
And so I'm going to jump rightinto setting the stage for our
podcast tonight.
We have situated the month ofpride month of June pride month
into the story of the Exodus,which is one of the oldest
liberation stories that we havein the Christian tradition.
But it isn't a story just aboutpeople escaping a bad situation

(01:50):
.
It's about confronting a systemthat enslaves and erases and
breaks the human spirit in somany ways.
And that story, in that story,egypt isn't just a place.
It's a symbol of an empire andcontrol and forced conformity.
It's where people's bodies wereowned and identity was stripped
and where autonomy was punished.
And the God who shows up inthat story is not the God that

(02:14):
is typically portrayed in folksspeaking about God in circles
around affirming ministry ofpunishment and condemnation and
judgment, but rather a God whorefuses to play by the empire's
rules and a God who doesn'tspeak in titles and categories
and when asked for a name,simply responds with I am
Uncontained, unboxed, and thatis not the God that Pharaoh or

(02:39):
Egypt worships.
That's the God who breakspeople out of bondage and breaks
people out of slavery, andbreaks people out of pain and
suffering and misery.
And maybe that's the journeythat we are still on as people
today, because Egypt in Exodus,pharaoh's Egypt doesn't just
live in ancient history.
In every age and in everysystem that tries to own bodies

(03:07):
or suppress difference or demandobedience in the name of order
or conformity, in the name ofsocial propriety and rightness.
Pharaoh's Egypt is a paradigmand a way of consolidating power
that flattens people, and italways flattens the marginalized
and flattens the vulnerable.
It shows up wherever theologyis used to restrict rather than
release and wherever people aretold to conform or be cast out.

(03:30):
So wherever God gets reduced toa weapon of control, you are
looking at an idol being used bythe empire, an idol being used
by Pharaoh's Egypt, and soleaving Egypt is what we are
trying to do.
Every time we choose liberationover dogma, every time we let
go of a God that is built todominate and move toward a God

(03:52):
who delights in diversity, inembodiment and in freedom, every
time we step away from falsegods built in our own image and
toward the wild, untamed mysteryof God's expansive love.
So it is my hope and my prayerthat tonight's conversation
about gender and theology andGod and love and grace is about

(04:13):
more than simply theoreticalconversations about freedom.
I'm hoping that we might starton a journey tonight about
finding God again on the otherside of the empire, on the other
side of the empire on the otherside of the sea, and realizing
that we are not walking out ofEgypt alone.
But in order to do that, we gotto have some people who know

(04:37):
more about it than I do, and soI'm going to introduce your
panel tonight.
We have one of the mainstays onour panel sitting at the far end
.
Ricardo de Menezes is here.
He's a labor organizer and aqueer advocate, and someone that
I trust to call out the BS inlove and grace.
Every chance that he gets, hebrings fire and clarity and a
deep belief that solidarityisn't just possible, it is
sacred.
And yet somehow he stillmanages to share my lack of

(04:57):
tolerance for performativeallyship.
So, ricardo, thank you, asalways, for being here tonight.
Next to him is Reverend TracyRobertson.
I've known Tracy for a reallylong time, and Tracy is a
diaconal minister and a longtimecolleague whose ministry
reminds me that gentleness andjustice are not opposites.
They're often very much theexact same path.
Tracy, in the entire time thatI've known her, has brought a

(05:20):
deep care and a sharp insightand a grounded kind of hope that
keeps people coming back to thetable and expanding the table
in ways that are humbling tobehold and admirable in the face
of so much of what we areseeing in the world today.
So, tracy, I'm really gratefulthat you are here tonight.
Thank you very much.
And then, next to Tracy, we haveLaura Gunderson.
Laura is a student at theUniversity of Calgary, a

(05:41):
volunteer at the Queer Center orthe Q Center rather, where
they've been a part of buildingaffirming spaces for queer and
trans students.
She brings thoughtfulperspective and lived experience
and a voice that adds so muchto this dialogue, and I'm very
grateful that he's agreed tojoin us this evening.
I'm grateful to all of you forbeing here tonight.
My last guest is Karen King,writing under the name KS.

(06:07):
King wrote her debut youngadult novel, the Cure Book one
Contamination.
I've got my copy of it sittingright here.
She's an award-winningjournalist as well a librarian,
a youth pastor and now anovelist as well.
This book offers a complex andimaginative journey into gender
identity and sacred selfhood inthe midst of and imaginative
journey into gender identity andsacred selfhood in the midst of

(06:28):
apocalyptic Calgary, right herein our own backyard in southern
Alberta.
I'm so glad that she's bringingthat voice into this
conversation tonight, so thankyou for being here.
Thank you.
And so, with that, my hope isthat, as we step into this
conversation, it's not so muchthat we're going to arrive at
the end of it with some kind ofa right answer, because there is
no possible way we're going tocover all that ground tonight,
but perhaps we can simplydemonstrate a way that we can

(06:48):
keep on walking and we can keepleaving Egypt together, and if
that is the sum total of what wemanaged to accomplish tonight,
then we will have done our taskwith grace and charity and
virtue.
So I want to start tonightknowing that I have talked a lot
already, but I feel like, basedon the events of the last week,
I need to ground us a bit morein the moment that we're living

(07:10):
in right now, because when wethought about doing this podcast
at this time, I don't think wetotally mapped out what the
world would look like at thistime and in this place.
Mapped out what the world wouldlook like at this time and in
this place.
So there are real-worldconsequences that we are seeing

(07:32):
lived out in real time about theimages of God that people are
protecting and the people thatare being erased in the process.
So we are recording thispodcast tonight in a week where
multiple US states south of usjust refused to recognize or at
least substantially scaled backtheir recognition and honoring
of Juneteenth and actively areseeking the same rollbacks and

(07:55):
we're seeing a wave of thoserollbacks up here in Alberta as
well against 2SLGBTQIA plusrights and dignity and respect
and validity.
So once again we're hearingreligious language.
I'm hearing religious language.
Most of us are probably hearing.
It used to justify it, thingslike God made man and woman,

(08:16):
biblical values, natural order,and it reveals something deeper
that there's still a dominantimage of God being fiercely
defended and clung to and, ifanything, having walls built up
around it, prepared for what Ithink is going to be a very
tragic and misguided fight onthe horizon.

(08:42):
And this is a God who is maleand hierarchical and deeply
punitive, god who demandssameness and homogeneity in
order to be called holy and partof the family.
And so part of my hope and myprayer for tonight is that we
can have a conversation thatrejects that image.
But before we go there, it isprobably important to at least

(09:07):
make sure that we name what itis that we are speaking against
for folks who may not fullyunderstand.
So my first question to theentire panel.
Whoever wants to start is.
What kind of image of God is itthat is being fiercely
protected when people resist thevisibility, rights or dignity
of queer people in the community?

Tracy (09:30):
That's already a loaded question, I know.

Bill (09:33):
I'm not here to talk about the fluffy stuff, Tracy.

Tracy (09:35):
All right, all right, well, I'll start, since I chimed
in right away Well, I'll start,since I chimed in right away A
lot of the image that that Igrew up with.
I'm 56.
And so the image that I grew upwith was very much a narrow

(09:58):
image of God, this man on athrone and so far removed from
me that, of course, I would fearhim because he's so far away
from me.
And as I started my spiritualjourney, like, seriously, my
first prayer that I ever wantedto be answered, that I prayed

(10:20):
for probably three yearsstraight, was I wanted to be
able to look at a group ofpeople, wherever I happened to
be, and see the divine in everyone of them.
I wanted to see what God sees.
And that happened to me on thetrain.
As I was still I was not aminister yet I was going
downtown to work and I got onthe train and all of a sudden it

(10:43):
was like holy, can we swear onthis?
Holy shit?
Like I can see, I can seethings like I can see it was.
It was just, it was amazing, itwas an amazing, and I sat there
in like this awe of everysingle person around me.
Some people were chatting indifferent languages.

(11:03):
Some people were upset thatthey couldn't drive to work.
They were on the train and youcould tell that they were mad
and I'm like you're missing allthis wondrous stuff that I see.
Anyways, it was like the mostamazing thing.
And then it hit me that if thisis what this was, my prayer
answered, and if this was whatGod sees, then the God that I
grew up with was not the rightimage for me, and so that God

(11:28):
came like down, based on the wayI was raised and became a part
of me and became a part of everysingle person I could see, and
so, um, so, the God that, theGod that I don't recognize, that
people use to uh, harm and andjustify, hate and justify, um,

(11:58):
all those negative things,judgment and all those things,
is not the God that I, that Iknow, but that's the God of
patriarchy, that's the God ofcontrol, power and control.
It's a God that I think it is.
It comes down to power andcontrol for me, in that image of
when you want to harm somebodyin God's name, that's using

(12:25):
God's name and being.
It's not swearing, it's notsaying oh my God, it's not
saying God, damn it, it's notdoing all those things.
It is using the love of God,this unconditional being of
divine divinity, and justifyingharm.
The minute you harm someone,it's not of God.

(12:48):
Anyways, I talked more aboutwhat I think God is, and then,
yeah, you still got there, it'sgood, okay, thanks, we round
around.

Ricardo (12:54):
I can say that image you grew up with, because I grew
up Catholic and in my mind ormaybe the Catholic church
teaches this or not, I don'tknow but in my mind God was,
yeah, on the throne, but at thesame time, watching everything
that you did, and it was neverlike, hey, you just like did a
really good thing.
God was watching you.
It was like, oh, you were bad.
God saw that right.
So the punitive God that youtalked about, and when we talk

(13:17):
about what you say, people thatuse that punitive and that
patriarchal God for a God ofpunishment and hate.
I don't, I'm not trans and Idon't go through the trans
experience like some people do,but I've stressed to find a
trans person that was raisednon-religious, and so they have

(13:39):
that same experience that a lotof people had when it comes to
religion when they were young.
You know God's watching you.
God will beat you down,whatever you're gonna go to hell
.
But people who are rejected byreligion um, and myself included
in many ways, when I came out,uh, the catholic church and the
catholic priest wasn't very niceto me, but not as horrible as
they could be to other, and theyare to others.

(13:59):
They still yearn for that loveand that community, and that's
all they want in many ways isjust a community to love them or
to be.
Just leave them alone right atthe end of the day, let them be
who they are and that's, that'sthe kind of God that I see, in

(14:20):
the sense that everybody was, if, if we are all created in his
image, then that, that queerperson, that non-binary person,
that trans person, the blackperson, everybody is.
Just let them be who they areand be free.
And in my experience, especiallyover the past couple of years
when I've been experiencing andtraveling through my more

(14:43):
non-binary side, I noticed thatin clothing choices and in
expression of gender is the waythat society battles the most.
In gender expression, when aperson who has a beard, like
myself, and is big and whatever,puts a skirt on, you get the
most stares.
And that's how I feel theeffect of a binary world and

(15:09):
very much a world that wasdriven by religion in that sense
, right, like the binary, youhave to remember this.
Like in many of the SoutheastAsian and Pacific Asian nations,
third, genders are very commonthe Fava fina of samoa, uh, and
in thailand, and and uh, all ofthose specifically, there was
always a third gender or alwaysan additional gender than the

(15:32):
two, until christianity andcolonialization came through
right and forced these binariesupon them to the point where the
third genders were repressedand uh and tortured and forced
into the sex trades in order tosurvive.
And this is all part of thatprocess.

(15:52):
The same thing happened here inresidential schools, with
two-spirit individuals who wereforced into the binaries or in
many ways tortured as well.
And you know the United Churchof Canada had a hand in that
process of residential schoolsas well, and you know the United
Church of Canada had a hand inthat process of residential
schools as well.
And they're still the onlychurch that I know of that's
made such an apology that theycan't say it enough.

(16:13):
But that's the God that I thinkneeds to exist more, just the
one that lets people be but alsoundoes all of that damage of
forcing people so far apart intheir genders that they can't
even find a connection anymore,right or fluidity.

Karen (16:31):
Yes, I totally agree with you, because when I grew up
Anglican in Newfoundland in avery traditional, almost high
Anglican church and that isalmost borderline Catholic,
almost high Anglican church andthat is almost borderline
Catholic and the version of Godthat we grew up with was not

(16:51):
only on the throne but almostlike Santa Claus, had this big
beard, white hair and had a goodlist and a bad list and do not
get on the bad list and so therewas always somebody watching
you and taking notes and so youknow you had to kneel down.
Make sure it hurt when you saidyour prayers, make sure it hurt

(17:13):
when you when you.
We saw them lose contact withthat relationship with God.
We saw them lose contact withthat relationship with God.
We saw them lose contact withthat relationship with their

(17:48):
parents.
Some of them were kicked outbecause they came out as being
trans and a couple ended up onour door and for us, the
acceptance was basically knowingthat God is a God of love and

(18:09):
that was the basic.
We went back and said, okay,what's the basic information
that we know to be true?
If God is a God of love, heloves everybody, and if God is a
God of acceptance, he acceptseverybody.
And I think a lot of us out herewho are having struggles and

(18:30):
conflict and trying torationalize and figure out what
being non-binary means in aChristian environment.
Instead of saying God createdus in his image or their image,
we intentionally, we purposely,give God our attributes, give

(18:54):
God our identity and say put Godin a box.
God is not a human, god is nota man, god is not a woman, god
is not a gender.
God is God.
And I think we've fallen awayfrom that.
We keep giving God ourmisconceptions of what God

(19:18):
should be, whether that is SantaClaus, whether that is an
authoritative figure thatfollows us everywhere and takes
notes to make sure that we go tothe right place or that we
repent and turn around, or evenjudge us.
What we wear and you mentionedabout clothing and I had this

(19:43):
conversation with our son whenhe came out For me it's why is
it that women can wear pants,skirts, suits, ties?
I went through the 80s and 90swearing my dad's tie wrapped
around my neck and his dress,shirts with leggings and you

(20:07):
know, I'm sorry Neon socks?

Bill (20:11):
I'd like to apologize to the 80s, but you know it was.

Karen (20:16):
You know, yes, we got strange looks from our parents
and uncles and aunts and stufflike that, from our parents and
uncles and aunts and stuff likethat.
But if my brother would havedonned a skirt, except a kilt
Now, a kilt is a different thing, but an actual skirt or a dress
, oh my goodness he would havebeen not only shunned but close

(20:42):
to stoned, to death.
I would say, and that is ashame that you know, we we
accept in certain ways and wedon't in others, and it's so.

Lor (20:51):
Is that disparity that is rubbing us raw and like when
you're saying the god that we'reprotecting or that people who
are oppressing people areprotecting and that they're
using to defend, like all theselegislation changes and stuff,
I'm thinking like this is thegod.

(21:11):
That is that, yeah, that is thepower and it's not the love.
And this is the god.
That is like supporting, uh,just what you want, you know,
and what people um, specifically, I guess people empower, want
and they it's not like shakingthem up I know, I feel like god

(21:34):
shakes me up, you know.
Like when you're talking about,like public transit, spiritual
moments, like, yeah, yeah, I'vehad several of those, but just
like humanity, and like seeinghumanity from god's perspective
and just like how amazing andhow diverse and like incredible
it is, and then just thinking,oh, we're gonna condense god to

(21:56):
this little tiny god that agreeswith all my decisions,
revisions and hates all thesepeople Like no.

Bill (22:07):
Yeah, I remember when I was younger we watched reruns of
the Simpsons.
I'm not as young as or as old aseverybody sitting here at this
table.
I'm younger than you, are you,maybe it's possible but we
watched reruns of the Simpsons.
I remember really clearly,still to this day, one episode
episode, that um, that reallyjarred me um when I was, when I

(22:27):
was younger, um, and I can'teven remember what, what the
interaction was about.
But there's a.
There's a scene where Marge andHomer are fighting about church
, um, and and Marge says toHomer um, don't make me choose

(22:48):
between my family and my God,because you just can't win.
And in that moment I rememberfeeling like a really really
terrible churchgoer and and andI like for for years and years
and years.
You'd see it on the reruns, itwould play itself out and I
would constantly be thinkingabout this, like, why would I,
why wouldn't I choose God overum?
You know everything else in mylife, right, this is, this is

(23:08):
sort of what the, the churchkind of um at least, was trying
to instill in me, um,unsuccessfully for a real,
although I guess they played thelong game um, but, uh, um, but
but realistically, like I.
I can remember when I.
I can remember the first time Iwas able to watch and go
actually like.
I disagree with you, marge, um,and, and if your God can't

(23:31):
handle some of this stuff, thenyou need a better God, um,
rather than a better family,rather than a better community,
rather than um.
So, um, like, like it's, it's.
I'm.
I'm fascinated at how much itwas ingrained just into
Wednesday night primetimetelevision, right, this idea of

(23:52):
what religion kind of called usto do and be and believe, and
that the pinnacle of it all wasthis idea that there was a God
who had rules, and the rulesmight change from arbiter to
arbiter of what those rules were, but at the end of the day,
that's almost.
The question right now is whogets to tell you what God thinks

(24:12):
?
Because it used to be that itwas the clergy.
I would say that even right now, that's not the case anymore,
and especially in so much ofwhat we see around the hatred
and the violence and the fearand just all of it, all of the
clawbacks and rollbacks oneverything related to diversity
and equity and inclusion,certainly as it relates to the

(24:33):
2SLGBTQIA plus community is it'sthe random stranger on the
street corner who gets to tellyou what God thinks, and if you
don't like it, you're wrong.
The street corner who gets totell you what God thinks, and if
you don't like it, you're wrong.
And we've reached that pointwhere there is no underlying

(24:54):
truth anymore to any of it all.
It's just everybody's armchair,theologian kind of opinion on
things, and that's a really,really horrifying place to be
when you really think about it,because, um, like you end up
with you end up with an entirecommunity filled with diverse
opinions about something thatreally, at the core of it all is
is kind of none of yourbusiness, yeah, um, and

(25:15):
certainly not something that youshould be exerting any agency
over, because you would bepissed off if someone ever came
into your house and did it toyou.
Yeah, right, you would bepissed off if someone ever came
into your house and did it toyou, right?
Woe to all the straight whitepeople that they decide that.
You know the heterosexuals arewrong and God, actually you know
like it won't be fun at all foranyone.

(25:36):
So you hinted at this, Lauren, Iwant to like pull at it a bit
more because, like both you andTracy have talked about kind of
this, like these awe-inspiringmoments where we're, you know,
seeing humanity through kind ofwhat we would imagine, at least
the eyes of a more expansive andloving God the human moment,
the human experience.

(25:56):
So what do we actually?
Well, let's play it either way.
What are we losing when we letpeople limit that or, if you
would rather, be way morepositive than I am on a daily
basis?
What do we gain by actuallycasting a wider view and casting
a wider understanding of anungendered, unbiased,
unjudgmental, uncondemning God?

(26:18):
What do we gain by actuallydoing that and dropping the?
Because you've actually donesome work around this and some
conversations around this atuniversity, right?

Lor (26:30):
Yeah, I mean, what I've heard from people the most and
what I guess I've seen in my ownlife the most is like, when you
get this like moments of likebigger view of God, it's Well I
guess it's such a big conceptnow I'm losing my words it's
like you can see how people andhow creation is just like

(26:52):
reflected in that and how it's alot more of it than you can
like conceptualize.
You know, and we can see likethe beauty in, like in my own
experience of being non-binary,like there is a lot in that.
That's like how do I shape thatidentity?

(27:14):
How do I like kind of build on,like what I was given and like
God is like this, like ultimatecreativity.
I, I don't know.

Tracy (27:29):
Yeah we're all like these works of art that are works in
progress Kind of yeah.

Lor (27:36):
And then, like with talking with people about their
experiences of like how they'veopened their imagination of God
and how that's like affectedtheir relationship with God or
their relationship withspirituality or like a lot of
those big kinds of relationshipsand feelings and identity
things it's a lot of.

(27:57):
I can see myself reflected, Ican feel that connection.
I can see the connection oflike this is like a valued part
of me and this is like a valuedpart of me, like that is valued
by God and yeah, that hasbrought people a lot closer to
like other people, to God, tojust interactions with the world

(28:18):
in like a positive, valued kindof way.
Valued kind of way instead oflike this is something that is
shameful or this is somethingthat is imperfect or deviant,
but it's expansive, it'sencompassed in like this

(28:41):
godliness, holiness, yeah.

Ricardo (28:45):
Let's not forget, I mean, that the beauty and
creativity and the diversity ofthe world existed.
I mean before white peopleruined everything.

Bill (28:57):
Sorry, when are you ever sorry?

Tracy (29:02):
Sorry, not sorry.
Yeah, I'm not sorry.

Ricardo (29:05):
Yeah, the cultures and the traditions and the different
aspects and the differentperspectives of God existed
throughout the world, yeah, andGod existed in the climate, and
God as a God of love and onethat would provide the sun and

(29:28):
the rain for the crops andprovide good fortune and
goodwill for villages to havemore children and raise a large
family and all those sorts ofthings.
And then I don't know maybe theministers and the crowd here in
the group can talk to me aboutit what did it all of a sudden
be like?
No, no, no, that's not enough,right, we're also a God that

(29:52):
tells you how to dress and howto act and how to look and how
to pray and all those kinds ofthings to you.
And so it's when we get to thatpoint and we're at a crossroads
in society now, especially withGod and the beauty of humanity,
where people are.
I mean, people have stood onsoapboxes preaching what they

(30:13):
thought about the Bible andabout God for centuries, and now
they're off the soapbox andthey're in your face, and then
now they've gone from in yourface to ripping down the walls
around you, right?
So I mean, an example is theyremoved the name Harvey Milk off
the boat, and a certain peoplesaid that it was specifically

(30:34):
done on Pride Month for thatreason, if you understand Right.
So like they could have chosenany other time of the year.
No, no, we waited for PrideMonth to rip Harvey Milk's name
off the boat, right?
And so this is where we're atnow.
We're at a crossroads where,like we, either defend diversity
and the dignity of humanity orwe fall back into the traps of

(30:55):
of um, a really harmful time fora lot of people well and at the
same time, like I would say,also a crossroads, where I hope
we're also realizing just howtenuous all of the progress
actually is.

Bill (31:07):
Right, like to be able to wantonly wait and flaunt that
there are powers in the worldthat can stomp all over this
stuff whenever they bloody wellfeel like it right.
And so what, then, is going tobe our response to that right?
What does resilience look likein the face of that?

(31:28):
What does solidarity andallyship look like in the face
of that?
Really right, because thoughtsand prayers are great.

Tracy (31:40):
We could actually do something.

Bill (31:41):
I'm vocationally required to believe in the power of
prayer.

Ricardo (31:47):
It's a bona fide occupational requirement.

Tracy (31:50):
There's a vow in there somewhere.

Bill (31:52):
Thoughts and prayers are kind of what they bank on being
the limit of your work on thesubject right in response.
So again, pray, absolutely,don't make it the only thing in
your toolbox.
So, yeah, I mean, like thisdoes feel like a crossroads time
and I'm not naive enough tobelieve that it's the first time

(32:13):
ever that it's been acrossroads time, right, but
certainly we're in the midst ofone, and I don't even need to
look south of the border andJoanne's not here to like really
make us lean into it right nowanyway.
But realistically, we can lookright here in Calgary, in
Southern Alberta, in Alberta,and see that, yeah, like it's

(32:36):
happening in real time allaround us and thoughts and
prayers are running out ofrunway on the issue.

Tracy (32:45):
Well, it almost becomes comical.
That phrase, right, thoughtsand prayers becomes comical,
right, like, I think, a lot ofpeople.
On June 1st, you know, you putsomething on Facebook happy,
pride, all those kinds of thingsand my youngest had a post that

(33:06):
said we can't just say love islove anymore, like now.
We're in a time where we haveto say let's save some lives,
right, because lives areliterally in danger, right, and
we're letting it happen.
I had somebody once tell methat she was talking to a room

(33:26):
full of clergy who fromaffirming churches and and was
being very real with us, and sowe were saying what can we do?
And she said I don't understandhow you can allow a group of
people to take the scripturethat you love and use it against
somebody in in such a harmfulway.

(33:47):
It's weaponized.

Lor (33:48):
It's weaponized.

Tracy (33:50):
And it always has been.
But we can't be these quietallies anymore.
We can't just be this.
Oh, I didn't know there wasaffirming churches.
Well, why not?
We need to be shouting thisfrom the mountaintops.
I started talking about goingback to binary and non-binary.
There's no such thing as binaryLike let's just admit that

(34:11):
right from the get-go thosethings that are listed in the
Bible man and woman, free andslave, greek and Jew no.

Bill (34:20):
Gentile and Jew.

Tracy (34:22):
Yeah, Jew and Gentile, all those kinds of things, right
, but those are like what wealways say.
We use those things as the endsof a spectrum, right?
Male and female and everythingin between, Greek or Jew and
Gentile, and everything inbetween Rich and poor, everybody
in between.
Like that's what it's meant tobe, those lists in the Bible.

(34:44):
It's not meant to be the binaryLike it's meant to be.
Let's just encompass from.
It's not meant to be the binaryLike it's meant to be, let's
just encompass from here to hereand everything else.
Right.
And so the sense of binary isreally, when we come down to it,
there's more sides to anargument, even than just two.
Right, there's no binary inthese things, right, Anyway.

(35:06):
And so I also think that thisfeeds into talking about
diversity and understanding Godin a deeper level.
Doing interfaith work andlearning about other faiths is
huge in terms of opening yourheart up to who God really is

(35:26):
right.
Like you cannot tell me and Ican say this with some
confidence the Christians likedid some damage, Like did a lot
of damage, saying I am the truth, that's only Jesus.
And it's like, come on, Likethat's not what's meant.
Like you cannot tell me thatonly christianity, which is the

(35:49):
cause of a lot of wars andconflicts, is the only right way
.

Bill (35:54):
it's the right way for some of us well, and even even
in that scripture passage, likeproof texting obviously is a
huge issue, right?
Because jesus goes on to saythere are other sheep and other
flocks right exactly, yeah, andthey, but they still respond to
my voice, right?
so, um, so, certainly this isone problem.
I don't want to lose sight ofone thing, because you did ask a
question, ricardo, that Iactually want to try to take a

(36:16):
stab at answering and I'mtrusting that, uh, that tracy
will will help me out with thisone because you said when did uh
, when did it all start to gowrong?
Maybe the ministers could tryto explain to you when it was
that we suddenly decided that itwasn't enough.
We had to start saying that Godwas also a God of rules and
what to wear and how to worshipand all that kind of stuff.
So what brought me back to itwas actually something that

(36:39):
Tracy had said about this ideaof the binary and everything in
between.
Right, no-transcript, becauseeven in the Trinity we find so

(37:21):
many places where God breaksfree of the breaks free of the
triune understanding of God,right, that even beyond those
three is God.
So, no matter what it is we tryto do throughout history, it's
our best failed attempt and itwill always be based on our
context.

(37:41):
It will always be justinherently based on our context.
So, on the one hand, weshouldn't expect anything but
the prosperity gospel from thewealthy right.
You would hope for a littlemore grace in it.
But the essence of theprosperity gospel makes sense to
come from the wealthy right,just like liberation theology

(38:03):
should come from the marginsright.
Nobody would believe liberationtheology coming from rich white
people.
It wouldn't look like or soundlike liberation theology to
emerge from them, but even atits crux, what we learn over
time is that even the best of itis still our best failed
attempt.
Because even beyond the best wecan muster in our time exists

(38:26):
God.
Because even beyond the best wecan muster in our time exists
God Every time.
Whatever box, the mostexpansive box you can put God in
, god is still waiting on theother side of the walls of that
box, right?
So it doesn't seem, but wehaven't made it to a point yet
where we can grasp there is nobox, right?
I don't want to sound like theMatrix, but realistically, like
that's kind of where it's at, ifwe can't

Lor (38:47):
define our relationship with God.

Bill (38:49):
We're in just as much trouble, right, If we can't say
God loves us and others.
We're in just as much trouble.
We have to define God in orderfor us to be in relationship
with God.
But it will always be our worstor our best failed attempt.
We will never get it right.
Where it goes wrong is whenhubris kind of sets in and you

(39:10):
go.
I know it better than anybodyelse.
That's where it starts to gowrong.
So even in the idea of the maleand female and everything in
between, even beyond that, is.
God right, even beyondeverything in between?
Is everything outside of thatspectrum right?
And that's the earth-shattering, mind-blowing kind of reality

(39:34):
as you go is that it's not evenabout the ends of the polarity,
because there are no ends.
But how do we relate to that aspeople?
That's the struggle, right, werelate to that as people, that's
the struggle right.
We're uncomfortable in thatspace, and rightfully so in some
ways, because the vastness ofGod is not the vastness of
humanity.
It can't be.
We are finite, we are mortal.

(39:56):
We're all but humble sinners.
That's my attempt at it.
Anything to add, Tracy, thatwould make it any easier on
anybody.

Tracy (40:03):
No, no, you did a wonderful, lovely job there.

Bill (40:06):
Does that at least let white people off the hook a bit,
ricardo?

Tracy (40:09):
Yes, Well, I think also I'm bringing it back a little
bit to the Trinity right theHoly like we kind of get a
handle on God, we have a handleon Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is a wild card,right.
The Holy Spirit gets usuncomfortable.

Bill (40:26):
Also the feminine person in the Trinity, Exactly Also the
feminine, which is also a wildcard right.
The Holy Spirit gets usuncomfortable.

Tracy (40:28):
Also the feminine person in the Trinity.
Exactly Also the feminine,which is also a wild card.
You never know what you get.
But I think that's part of thatuncomfortability.
Is that a word?

Bill (40:40):
Sure, we've made it one here tonight.

Tracy (40:41):
All right Is that we don't like uncomfortable, we
don't like unexpected, we don't.
You know, we like when thingsare planned, and that's also
with those in power.
People like the mess they, theylike to control the message,
right.
And so if you believe what Ibelieve, then you're a safe
person.
I know what you're going to say, I know what you're going to,

(41:04):
what you think.
But if you don't believe thesame as me, oh, oh, I don't know
what I we're all gonna do withthat, because you know I have
other things to worry about thanto worry about what your
message is and what you, yourbelief, is like.

Bill (41:16):
if you believe the same as me, then I can, you know,
control other people, and yeah,so it's, it's yeah, and yet at
the same time, when you begin toexperience those god moments
we've heard it already heretonight the liking being shaken
up, liking being unsettled, atleast right.
So there's good comfort and badcomfort, or good discomfort and

(41:40):
bad discomfort in the middle ofit all, right.
So anyone want to try toquantify what that looks like?

Tracy (41:47):
Well, you know I sorry I'm talking a lot, I'm going to
let other people talk.
But I started in our PowerPointsand things at church, I started
putting other pronouns or othernames rather than just the male
mostly male or Lord.

(42:08):
You know, we male or Lord andI'll put that in brackets.
So I won't change a hymn, butI'll put in brackets an
alternative word, and so Ialways say to folks at the
beginning of the service whohaven't been to my church you'll
see words in brackets, you cansing and you can say whatever
you're comfortable with.
But I would encourage you tosay the words in brackets and

(42:28):
see how it feels, See if itopens your image of Lord in a
different way, or of God in adifferent way, or of he in a
different way, and see how thatfeels and you're in a safe place
and you can be uncomfortable.
But you might be surprised thatit might open you up to

(42:49):
something that is actuallysomething positive and something
oh, I hadn't thought of she inthat sense or in that verse.
It sounds different, right.
So I think that could be apositive way of making
uncomfortability good, Exciting.
Yeah, making uncomfortabilitygood, exciting.
Yeah, yeah because I'm like you,laura, like I get excited about

(43:11):
the differences, like thethings that are unexpected.

Karen (43:17):
Yeah, I get excited about those kinds of things and I
think there's generations ofpeople out there who do not have
the social and uh debate ofnatures that a lot of our
parents even grew up with.
Um, you know, we had debateclubs, we had uh in classes, and

(43:38):
a lot of schools still do.
But now, with the advent ofsocial media and the internet
what what people have starteddoing and they started doing
this years ago they gravitatetowards other people who feel
and think the way they do.
Rather than challengethemselves, rather than go out

(44:00):
and find someone to have adebate with, they would rather
be in a little chat group andthen with someone who feels the
exact same way, has the exactsame opinion, and that chat
group expands and expands andall of a sudden, you basically
have a cult and now you're goingto start doing something and
you're going to start spreadingthat cult message and you're
going to start implementing thatmessage within society and

(44:23):
impacting society within societyand impacting society, rather
than have an educated discussionand be open to honest opinions.
That may or may not changeyours, but at least you'll be
given the opportunity to sayokay, if I feel this way, why do
I feel this way and if thisperson is saying something that

(44:45):
refutes that, that makes a lotof sense.
But I think a lot of people havelost that ability to actually
think that somebody else who'srefuting their information and
their opinions to give themenough openness to accept that
what you're getting instead iscombative.

(45:07):
You're getting, if you don'tagree with me, well, blah, blah,
blah, screw you, I'll nevertalk to you again.
You're unfriended, you're blah,blah, blah.
And it goes into this combative, threatening nature.
And you see it in politics, yousee it in society.
I mean, I wrote my book onextremism.

(45:32):
I wrote it 10 years ago when Istarted seeing these things
popping up in our society, thesethings popping up in our
churches, these things poppingup in our industry, in our
province in Alberta specifically, and at the time it was just a
small little seed.
And when I started writing thepremise for it, based on

(45:58):
real-world trends that I wasseeing in my journalism career,
a lot of people who read thefirst drafts oh, this is too out
there.
You know, it's too extreme.
Do you really think this isgoing to happen?
It is happening.
You know there are lots ofthings that I mentioned now that
scared people when they readthe book, and it should.

(46:21):
Extremism is here.
It started years ago.
It's not something thatsprouted up overnight.
It didn't sprout up in theStates.
It didn't sprout up in Canadain a little tiny seed overnight.
It sprouted from years andyears and years of not accepting

(46:42):
other people, not acceptingother people, not accepting
other opinions and not beingopen and honest with other
people in those discussionssaying we get defensive, like

(47:07):
you said, right, you getdefensive, there's conflict,
instead of saying, oh, you know,can you tell me more about why
you think that?

Tracy (47:11):
or why you say that and and and?
I don't ever have to agree withthat person, but I'm not going
to want them dead, you know.
I will get to a point ofunderstanding where they're
coming from.
Right and so this, right and sothis.
Again, I'm I'm giving props tomy youngest, ev hi Ev, to say

(47:32):
that this curiosity like theyare brilliant, anyways,
curiosity, I think, is the isone of the keys to being able to
be in, like, living in peacewith one another.
And I think back to youroriginal when did this happen?
Like, how did this?

(47:53):
And I think it started withlike, people stopped being
curious, right, stopped beingcurious and decided we're right,
you're wrong, decided that thegood news was only about Jesus.
And no, it wasn't.
The good news is about love,it's not about you know.
And we just become combative.

Karen (48:06):
Yeah, and I think, as soon as we say we have it, we
know god we know what exactlythat's when we're in trouble.

Ricardo (48:12):
Yeah, you know, and it's it's hard too, because we
also live in a time right nowwhere people want to erase the
unknown and the uncomfortableand they want to uh um, not just
not talk about it like what youused to do.
I was happy at a time when youknow, when I came out it was

(48:35):
still the early 2000s, late 90s,and it was a very uncomfortable
and a very awkward and a veryweird situation for everyone in
my family and friends groupbecause, like, as I was telling
our three guests, like we didn'teven have sexual orientation in
the human rights code yet inAlberta, right, Let alone
marriage and all this stuff.
And now we live in a worldwhere, you know, we supposedly

(48:57):
have these rights enshrined inlaw, right but we're actively
seeing it rolled back becausewe're living in an age now where
they don't want to just leaveus alone or keep quiet about it
or not acknowledge, they want toerase it and erase us off the
face of the planet.

Bill (49:11):
Yeah, and in the face of that, even enshrined in law is
not safe enough and not safeenough.

Ricardo (49:17):
And, like yesterday, we had a pride.
Like we do our birthdays, likethe month of birthdays, we do
them on a day at the office andwe also, like, sort of had a
pride celebration.
So I went to the cupcake storeand got, you know, my boss got
these big plethora of rainbowcupcakes and everyone celebrated
their birthdays and I gave alittle.
He gave a little speech aboutlike pride and how the first

(49:40):
pride protest was at StonewallHotel in New York in 1969 when
the police raided and somebodysaid well, you know, did that
ever happen in Canada?
And not many people know thatin Calgary.
The police raided the gay bar inCalgary in December of 2002.
Yep Raided, arrested, hauledeveryone to jail at the gay bar
in Calgary and I was just 19years old or 20 years old when

(50:06):
that happened and I was likewhat the hell is going on?
Right, like I'm in thiscommunity, I'm out, there's no
going back, right and so it tookthe Calgary police 21 years to
issue an apology to ourcommunity in Calgary, to say we
made a mistake and we shouldn'thave done that.
Right and so.
But we're getting to a pointnow where, like you know, let's

(50:27):
put the governments aside andthe crazy governments aside,
even corporations are backingoff now and saying you know, we
don't want anything to do withthis.
Now, right, we will protect youif someone discriminates
against you, because the lawrequires us to, but it's no
longer going to be somethingthat we're going to talk about.
And it's just it's erasing usand it's not just putting us
back in the closet, because nottalking about us is one thing

(50:51):
that's almost like leaving usalone but not talking about us
while there's radical, extreme,hurtful and violent people in
power is a death sentence for alot of our community.
What I also am very concernedabout is that the a lot of
people in the 2SLGBTQIAcommunity, especially gays and
lesbians, are becoming apatheticto what's going on because they

(51:13):
feel that we have we're safe.
In Canada, I know a lot of gaypeople that, like, they go to
all the parties, they drinktheir faces off, but all of like
the social justice events, allthe the marches and the things
that are going on, no one showsup anymore for these things, and
it's scary for me because it'sone of those situations where

(51:34):
you know there was a quote thatI saw on Instagram where you
know they came for theIndigenous, but I wasn't
Indigenous, so I didn't care.
They came for the Jews, but Iwasn't a Jew, they didn't care.
And then finally they came forme, right, but by then it was
too late.
Nobody left right.
So that's.
The problem is that right now,we're in a situation in a world

(51:55):
where they want to erase andsuppress and repress Like it's a
scary time in a lot of ways.
And over what?
Really?
Let's put it into context Overwhat right A person wearing a
dress right or somebody wholooks different and acts
different than you, right?

(52:15):
We're literally doing these,passing these laws and shaping
the minds of children andhumanity, which prevents people
from getting jobs.
Like 80 to 90 to 100%, 100% ofthe trans people that I know
just want to work, pay theirbills, buy some groceries.

Bill (52:33):
Playing about the cost of groceries right along the way.

Ricardo (52:35):
Yeah, maybe get a good drunk once in a while, go on a
vacation, that's all they want,right?

Karen (52:41):
And actually have a life.
I mean, the fear of a lot oftrans kids these days is that
they won't have a life.
They don't deserve a life.
They don't know where to go.
I work in a school and we have aGSA.
I'm a librarian at a school andwhen four books were put on the

(53:07):
ban list and all of them wereLGBTQ+, we had one of those
books in our learning commons.
It was age appropriate.
It was pulled.
It was just at the start ofPride Month.
So what could I do?

(53:29):
I made a huge Pride display.
I brought out my LGBTQ books,made a big display, had my
rainbow hearts, had all mybookmarks with all you know save
a life, You're welcome here.
I had, you know, all kinds ofdisplay things for kids to come

(53:50):
in and see and all the Canadianbooks on nonfiction and fiction
books where there werenon-binary characters and people
in Canadian history, famouspeople in sports, you know who
are non-binary and LGBTQ+.
The number of kids that came in, grabbed a bookmark and started

(54:15):
putting them in other books inthe Learning Commons, Just so
that other kids reading otherbooks, whether they be LGBTQ+ or
not, would have something toflip through and find a positive
message.
They went throughout mylearning commons and it was, you

(54:38):
know, a very powerful moment tosee these kids come in, and
it's a safe space for them.
But in the same token, though,in discussing with the GSA club
members at our school, I askedthem before the podcast here
tonight, in talking with thestudents, what kinds of things

(55:01):
are stressing them out thesedays.
These days and the teacher Ispoke with said everything they
are so frustrated, they're soscared, they are so unsure of
where they belong, and if theybelong, because society keeps
telling them they don't, whencan they go?

(55:24):
We can have safe spaces in ourschools, we can create a safe
space in our families, in ourhomes, in our churches, but
outside of that, where can theygo If everything is being clawed
back, in the employmentindustry, in education, if you
see it, in society, if theclawing back is starting to

(55:45):
happen?
I am fearful for their lives,Because when all of this stuff
started coming out, thisnegativity, this very vile
hatred towards LGBTQ, especiallytrans, one message that kept
going through Facebook,Instagram, Twitter, was a meme

(56:09):
that said you know, can we getback to the day when they just
killed themselves?
That showed up in my feed, thatshowed up on the Twitter world
Because I'm an LGBTQ plus author.
It showed up in my feed and Ican just imagine how many kids

(56:34):
saw that, how many young peoplesaw that, how many people who
are afraid to even disclose totheir parents, to their families
, to their close loved ones, totheir church, to their mentors.
How many people saw that andwhat that did to their psyche,
what that did to their faith,what that did to their mental

(56:56):
health.
Because it shocked me and Ithink of my son and what he
struggled with.
He had those suicidal thoughtsbut he had us to help him.

(57:17):
If you don't have that supportnetwork to help you through
those minefields that are outthere now, where do you go?
Because I am so scared for thekids in Alberta right now.

Bill (57:30):
I really am so it used to be I know Ricardo is giving me
the subtle hint to look at timeas well.
We are reaching the point forintermission, but I do want to
say really quickly, before wemove into the intermission, that
one of the things that you usedto be able to I think at least
count on is that, even when allof the other supports or

(57:53):
structures or systems that werein the world were failing you I
was taught as a child, I wastaught as a teenager you can
always count on God, you canalways turn to God, and I think
part of what we jeopardize themost in all of this is when you
take away that bastion of hope,that one bastion of hope that

(58:18):
isn't reliant on humaninstitutions or the best of
humanity to make it happen, thebest of humanity to make it
happen.
So we have spent the first parthere talking about where we are
at and some of the things, theimplications, the very serious
implications of thisconversation and what happens

(58:41):
when we co-opt God and kind ofbox God into a model that tells
people that they either conformor don't belong, or ought not to
live, or are somehow judged andcondemned for that fact.
So when we come back from ourintermission again, vocational

(59:02):
hazard.
I'd like to look at thebrighter side, if we could for a
little bit, so that we're notall leaving here feeling
distraught.
But I don't want to make lightof the reality that certainly I
anticipate every single personsitting here on this panel
tonight has experienced somedegree of the implications of
this rhetoric up until thispoint.
I know that, certainly in thechurch.

(59:23):
It is no secret to folks whohave been around to know that I
and one of my daughters have hadto go through this, including
the thoughts of suicide, andthat even in her advocacy for
her friends that are in the2SLGBTQIA community experienced

(59:44):
great violence and an absence ofsupport from the structures
that were supposed to have safeplaces A school that did not
have a GSA and haspathologically refused to start
one up and certainly felt veryalone and was only held actually
by the friends that she was,you know, supporting herself in

(01:00:06):
the middle of it all andobviously her family that deeply
loved her.
But I think what has shifted,if I can be so bold as to say it
, what has shifted now is Idon't think people truly
understand the consequences oftheir actions or the
consequences of their wordsanymore.
You gave the example and I'm notcritiquing the example because

(01:00:28):
I agree with it, but you gavethe example of just because I
disagree with somebody doesn'tmean that I would want them dead
, and I think what we haveactually reached is the point
now where people don't realizethat disagreement is okay.
How you choose to disagree canactually lead to somebody's

(01:00:55):
death, and it used to go withoutsaying that you knew there was
a way to disagree.
Well, yeah, violent would bethe wrong word, but certainly
the most volatile disagreements,even on issues of politics or
certainly issues around humanrights, there was always at
least the understanding that atthe core of it all, human
dignity must still remain as apart of the discourse right, and

(01:01:18):
maybe I'm romanticizing it, butit certainly wasn't like it is
now today.
right, we do live now in a dayand age where, yes, silence is
complicity, and you're not justcomplicit in not changing things
.
In a lot of cases you'recomplicit with the narrative
that actually leads to peoplelosing their lives certainly

(01:01:39):
losing their livelihoods, butmore often than not also losing
their lives or being at greaterrisk of having that happen.
So when we come back, let'simagine a different world for a
little bit, if we can.
I know that might be hard forus to do, but for now we're
going to take an intermissionand we will be back to start off
the second half of ourdiscussion.

(01:02:24):
Here and before the break wewere talking about what happens
when our image of God is toosmall, and so now I'm hoping
that we can turn the questionand look a little bit more at
what becomes possible in ourfaith and in our relationships
and in our own embodiment andour communities when we let the
image of God actually grow andexpand and become more than a

(01:02:45):
simple binary image and, in allhonesty, a patriarchal, male,
punitive kind of image of God.
because leaving Egypt is notjust about what we're leaving
behind, it's also what we'removing toward.
So it's about claiming ourfreedom and it's about telling
new stories, stories thathaven't necessarily dominated

(01:03:07):
our literature, our airwaves,and refusing to let the empire
or the pharaoh of our day defineour worth.
And so that's actually going toget me to start with you on
this one, karen, because that'sexactly ha ha, look at this.
That's exactly what yourprotagonist, julia, is facing in
your book.
She claims her truth and I'mtrying not to give away too much

(01:03:30):
because I don't want to spoilit and then everyone will go hey
, I don't need to buy the book.
But there is a moment in theCure where Julia is standing in
front of a mirror and she's gota pair of scissors in her hand
and she's talking almost with avoice in her head at the same
time.
And she's just come off of aconflict with her parents and

(01:03:51):
they have said we just reallywish that we could understand
what you are going through.
And Julia is talking to herselfand the mirror and saying if
you want to understand what I'mgoing through, then you need to
face reality.
And then the voice in her headsays you needed to face reality.
And then the voice in her headsays you needed to face reality,
julia.
And she takes the scissors andshe takes that liberating step

(01:04:14):
towards becoming visible andcuts her hair and looks in the
mirror afterwards and says well,hello there.
I think the description isactually her.
What was the word?
Her hair is not destroyed, butI think it's her chopped hair or
whatever.
Looks at her image in themirror with this clearly amateur
cut in the mirror kind ofhaircut and says, well, hello

(01:04:36):
there, nice to finally meet you.

Karen (01:04:38):
Yes.

Bill (01:04:40):
And so when I was reading this, I was very aware that, for
me at least, this was not sortof a coming-of-age moment.
It was actually more of areally kind of sacred and
embodied moment of refusing tolet somebody else define who she
is.
And certainly not the first anddefinitely not the last in the
story.
Either right, but my questionto you is going to be a little

(01:05:02):
bit different than that, BecauseI want to know and this is
going to be a.
I'm trusting that, as ajournalist, you've had to answer
our questions and not just askthem.
Uh, as you were writing, julia,yes, uh, as you imagine,
someone claiming their identity,uh, in defiance of the binary
expectations of her day, our day, um, did that process shift

(01:05:24):
anything in you?

Karen (01:05:27):
Of course it did.
I don't think I could havepossibly have written the book
without me growing with Juliaand going through that growth
process from Julia to Jules,from Julia to Jules.

(01:05:49):
Jules was based ever soslightly on our son and about
his transitioning.
He had a difficult time, thesame as Julia did, but we
noticed in his transitioningthat the conversation that he

(01:06:12):
always had in his head did notmatch the conversation we were
having with him and there weretimes when we would discuss
something, and I think it's partof being a teenager as well.
You have all these dialogues inyour head that you think
somebody's thinking about you orwhat they're really thinking,

(01:06:37):
what they really want to say andwhat they mean when they say
what they say.
I had those conversations in myhead when I was a teenager.
I had those conversations in myhead when I was a teenager and
nine chances out of ten theywere wrong, because my
perspective and my perceptionwas so skewed with my own
identity and what I was goingthrough that I was changing

(01:07:00):
everything in my head so that,because I couldn't figure out
the muddled part part.
Now, when I created Jules, it'sone of those characters where
it's a book about extremism.
Yes, so Jules goes throughextreme reactions, but I also

(01:07:25):
wanted the dialogue to be therein Jules's head and the reader
knowing what Jules was goingthrough, which is why there is a
dialogue.
Jules talks to themselves a lotand the voice that starts off
with Julia is not the voice thatends up with Jules, and there's
a journey there as Juliatransitions to Jules.

(01:07:50):
That voice who starts off meanand very vindictive and hateful
and very conflicted and nitpickyand very sarcastic, and that
comes out in Julia's behaviorwith her family, with her
friends and all this anger theyhave.

(01:08:14):
As Julia transitions and becomesJules, though, they find a
place where they can belong,they find their own identity and
accept who they actually areand then realize, well, the
world's not going to come to anend because of me.
It'll become because ofeverything else that's coming

(01:08:34):
around.
But my parents are accepting ofme, my family is Okay, well,
that's a safe space.
My brother is accepting of meWell, that's a safe space which
opens up a little bit, a littlebit, a little bit more, so that
by the time the book ends,jules' inner dialogue is so

(01:08:57):
affirmative and is so comfortingand not quite confident yet,
but it's a voice that surpassesyour inner psyche, the inner

(01:09:20):
dialogue and actually Jules getsa glimpse of God talking to
Jules and accepting and caringand loving who Jules is.
And when Jules looks at thatmirror for the first time and
cuts the hair and sees who theyare just a little glimpse of who

(01:09:41):
they actually are it's a bigload off.
It's like I don't have todisguise myself anymore.
I don't have to disguise myselfanymore.
I don't have to hide, I don'thave to transform myself to fit
an image that society says Ihave to fit into a box that
society wants to put me in.

(01:10:01):
So I wanted the readers tojourney with Jules and I hope
you felt that when you read it.

Bill (01:10:08):
I actually wrote here that for me, one of the things that
gave me great hope in readingthis book and I mean, you know
the audience probably doesn'tknow, but my 12-year-old is now
actually reading the book and my15-year-old is called Dibs
afterwards, right, so in a lotof cases I was joking with the
panel before we started becausethey're all going like Dad, why
are you reading a young adultbook?

(01:10:29):
But I wrote that for me, thething that brought sort of a lot
of hope out of the charactersthat you built in this book is
that there's a reflection herethat there can be queerness and
divinity that exist on the pagebut also in the world right.
That we can actually get to aplace where queerness and the

(01:10:49):
divine are not separate thingsat all but are in fact one and
the same.
So that certainly would be myendorsement for reading the book
.
But certainly there was greathope in that, and again, for my
kids to be interested andengaged in it as well is one of

(01:11:10):
the places that gives me greathope.
I think that if we start to findways to change the stories that
are dominant in our narrative,if we get away from the Simpsons
rerun ingrained kind ofunderstandings of where God fits
into the picture of things andwhat our relationship with God
actually is when it comes toquestions around, your God tells

(01:11:31):
me that I can't be like thisthen we probably need a better
God, as opposed to don't make mechoose between God and you
because you can't win, right,there's never that kind of at
least in my experience, no,there's never that kind of a
choice being put before us,right?
God never forces us to choosebetween God and dignity, right?

(01:11:53):
And so, yeah, I mean, likecertainly every page, you feel
the anger at the beginning.
You gave away more than I wasgoing to, so I don't feel bad,
and you do get to journeythrough the entire transition
and all of both kind of thecourage and the heartbreak and

(01:12:14):
everything that kind of goeswith it, right?
So again, like for mepersonally, thank you for
writing the book because again,my kids are loving it so far and
it's a different kind ofnarrative than we typically hear
.
Yeah, it's a different kind ofnarrative than we typically hear
and the characters are frontand center as opposed to

(01:12:34):
sideline punchline supportingcast characters.

Karen (01:12:38):
And I try to make them as real as possible.
Jules is a compilation of abunch of different teenagers
that our son has befriended andeven other trans kids in our
church.
When Jules, just after our son,came out as trans and it's

(01:13:04):
funny, these kids find theirtribe.
Whether you try and push themone way or another, they find
their tribe.
Whether you try and push themone way or another, they find
their tribe.
And when our son came out astrans, it wasn't like we stood
up in church and said our son istrans.
He just slowly came in andchanged a little bit each time

(01:13:32):
and all of a sudden there wereother teenagers who noticed and
said Okay, I see the difference.
Maybe I can sit and have a chatwith you later.
And mom and dad came over.
Maybe I can talk to you aboutsome things which led to other
conversations and friendshipsand to tell you you know Jules

(01:14:01):
does do a transformation.
But you know I had thisconversation with my son two
weeks ago and he knew I wrotethe book.
He knew he was an inspirationfor the Jules character, but he
hadn't read it yet and he got acopy for Christmas and he's been

(01:14:28):
sitting on a shelf and he'sbeen working hard and everything
.
And he decided to pick it upand start reading it about a
month ago.
And he called me a couple weeksago and he said mom, I love
your voice, does Jewel?

(01:14:49):
He was only a couple ofchapters in and he said does
Jules change?
Does Jules grow?
Because I've grown, haven't I?
And I said, oh, my God, youhave grown so much.

(01:15:10):
I'm so proud of who you'vebecome.
You have embraced who you areto the 10th degree.
He went through this stage inmiddle school, high school, and
lost all confidence in himself.
But as soon as he embraced whohe really was, who God made him

(01:15:36):
to be, he thrived.
He got on this path.
He wanted to work himselfthrough university.
He did, convocated withexcellence on the dean's list

(01:15:57):
every single year in university,has a dual degree, like in a
science degree, and he's doinghis master's in the fall and he
has a wonderful, beautifulpartner and I see so much hope

(01:16:20):
for him and he gives so muchhope.
He gives so much back and he is.
He is talking about, you know,whenever, whenever there's
something in our lives thatwe're struggling with.
He said, mom, I'm going to prayfor you and to have that come
back at you after throwing itout there so many times.

(01:16:40):
That is a mother's dream.

Ricardo (01:16:47):
I want to say that I believe your son embraced who he
was and is thriving because ofa safe space and a mother like
you.

Karen (01:16:55):
Oh, thank you.

Ricardo (01:16:58):
And you are truly special for providing that for
your child when so many childrendon't get it, because I truly
believe that when trans kidssurvive, trans adults thrive and
they live.
But they need that safe spaceto be themselves and embrace and
explore who they are, becauseotherwise they're just
perpetually thrown into a box.

(01:17:19):
So don't discredit yourself forwhat you've done and provided
for your child too.

Karen (01:17:25):
Thank you so much.

Ricardo (01:17:27):
And it's important as a society that we just love and
accept people for who they areand how they come.
I mean, even until today, mostpeople will have that
reservation of insecurity whenthey don't see part of
themselves.
Everybody wants to see part ofthemselves in everybody and

(01:17:47):
wants to see similarities, tosee part of themselves in
everybody and wants to seesimilarities, and and
similarities is a source ofcomfort for most people, in
order to provide um thatconnection for conversation and
and for um and for friendship oror anything.
And um you know, as a unionorganizer, I always tell my
staff that um you know, youyou'll only develop more

(01:18:11):
activists if you stop talking tothe people that look and sound
like you, and you'll only findthe true issue in the workplace
and the true challenge thatpeople are facing when you're
doing that organizing, facingwhen you're doing that

(01:18:31):
organizing, even if it'sexisting unionized workplaces or
new ones, if you go to somebodythat you would have no comfort
or no pre-existing sort of urgeto speak to and just sit down
and talk with them andunderstand who they are.
And that's where the realbeauty of humanity is, when we
explore the unknown and we arecurious, like we said in the
last half, right, when we arecurious and when we are, when we

(01:18:56):
just break down all thebarriers and just have a
conversation with somebody at ahuman level, right.

Karen (01:19:03):
Thank you, and I mean I don't do this alone.
I know I don't do this alone.
I have a wonderful husbandwho's also an Anglican priest
and who has been such an amazingmentor for both our kids, and

(01:19:26):
we have a God who's loving andkind and answers prayers and is
there when they need them andeven when they don't think they
do.
But I wanted this book to beabout hope, even despite all the
chaos.

Bill (01:19:48):
There's hope in the middle of it.
The world is still kind of yeahwell, the world's still going to
half half a priest and alibrarian.

Ricardo (01:19:59):
There must be no shortage of bookshelf space in
your house.

Karen (01:20:03):
That's another story.
Things work out for.

Bill (01:20:06):
Jules, not for a lot of other people.
Laughter, laughter laughter,laughter.
Things work out for Jules, notfor a lot of other people.
Story about a bus driver namedRaj.
Oh God, I wanted to move onbecause this is an example.
Tracy, I'm coming to youactually because you have

(01:20:33):
ministered in a variety ofdifferent kind of contexts and
ways, right.
So you've done the progressivecongregation kind of ministry.
You're at St Thomas United now,and certainly even in
progressive conversationsMcDougal, red Deer Lake, st
Thomas, everywhere there arestill we are still doing the
work, I think, of trying tounlearn harmful theologies,
right, like you described theidea of you know like we put the

(01:20:53):
words up but we put the wordsin brackets, right?
Or, in my case, we tend to do alot of the.
You can say the Lord's Prayer inwhatever language and tradition
brings you closest to thecomfort of God, knowing that for
some people it is just asdifficult to take away the
language they have said for 50years as it is to encourage them

(01:21:17):
to consider what theimplications behind that
language might be right.
Lordship in and of itself isnot a bad thing.
How it has been misused wouldbe the bad thing.
So, from the pastoralperspective, for me it's always
about whatever wording works, aslong as it's not an expectation
that everybody uses the samewords.
But you've also chaplained at ayoung offender center, and many

(01:21:41):
of the people you would haveworked with there because I did
a practicum there a number ofyears ago would have been on the
receiving end of some of themost rigid and punishing
religious messaging imaginable,not just because of their
context, but again, certainlyeven a number of the folks when
I was there doing my practicumwere wrestling with a very.
It was very clear and theywould disclose I'm gay, but it

(01:22:03):
is not safe to be gay here, justin general right.
So I'm curious.
I'm going to invite you atleast to start.
What begins to heal for people,whether it be in worship or in
their own self-care or in theirrelationships with others, when
you start to hear a differentvoice, other than that of the

(01:22:23):
God that is oppressive andempirical and patriarchal, one
that actually invites them tocome out of Egypt and to move
towards freedom and true,authentic freedom?
What heals for communities andfor people and for relationships
, when you start to walk downthat road?

Tracy (01:22:42):
Wow, I think I don't want to make it as simplistic as
your soul starts to heal, but Ithink that's part of it.
When I get a phone call fromsomebody who is ready to kill

(01:23:05):
themselves because their churchhas told them that they're an
abomination and the world wouldbe better without them, and I
talk to them for two hours onthe phone and I get them through
the night.
They have nothing to do with StThomas, they just call us
because we have the rainbow andwe might be a safe place to talk
about God and get them through.
And then two years later, I seethem at Pride Parade and they

(01:23:28):
come up to me I've never metthis person.
They Years later, I see them atPride Parade and they come up
to me I've never met this person.
They recognize me for somereason and say you got me.
I'm here today because of thattwo-hour conversation.
And so then I tell thosestories to the congregation in
sermons and messages and thingsand people.

(01:23:49):
There's a certain sense of pridefrom the congregation.
Um, when, when their leader isout there, right, doing, doing
the things, um, of course, thereare some congregants that are
like, you know, don't bepolitical.
Well, it's not political it,but it's not.

(01:24:10):
But there's a certain sense ofpride, and so I think.
And then congregants come up tome and say I wish I could do
what you do, you know, and I'mso glad that you do it on our
behalf, kind of thing.
And I said we're all doing itin our own way, we're all doing
it.
And so the minute you're ableto go up to somebody in a

(01:24:32):
grocery store and say, niceskirt, that looks great on you,
you know, and those, it's asmall thing for those of us that
have privilege of being able tosay those things out loud and
not worrying about theconsequences of that, but it's
huge, for it can be huge for therecipient of that.

(01:24:53):
So I think what begins to healis, well, first of all,
relationships.
But I think our souls begin toheal, like, like, I think, I
think people who are affirmed inwho they are and how, I say God
made them to be, and and givethem that confidence that, yes,
god made you this way and God isjourneying with you in this,

(01:25:17):
and so am I and so is the church.
There's, there's a buildup of,of, of the, of the, the, the
faith that has, you know, a lotof a lot of folks grew up with
the faith, right, and they missit when they're ousted from
their church communities.
Right, they miss thatfoundation.

(01:25:40):
And so when they find a churchthat says they're affirming,
they'll check it out first andfeel the waters and see if it's
actually safe and if they'reactually preaching or living out
what they preach.
But as soon as they find thatthey become involved in the
church community, they start totrust other people on other

(01:26:00):
committees, they start tovolunteer and they start telling
their community outside thechurch about it and that just
heals the entire church.
Like our church, the Christianchurch has been so damaged by

(01:26:21):
the harm that we've done in thepast and it's our responsibility
today, as affirming Christianleaders today, to fix that.
And so it's the same idea asreconciliation.
Right, I wasn't there, I didn'trun a residential school right,
we can use those excuses.
Right, it wasn't me, no, but werepresent that, right.

(01:26:43):
And so I think it's still ourresponsibility and I think, as
uncomfortable as that makes somepeople feel there is still that
uncomfortableness moves themtowards just that soul healing,
that spirit healing.
Yeah, I don't know if Iexplained that.

Bill (01:27:07):
So, laura, what about you?
What do you think?
What, uh, what opens up for usand how we relate to ourselves
and to each other when we startto, um well, hold god's identity
a little more loosely than ithas been in the past?

Lor (01:27:25):
well, when you were speaking, tracy, about like I
guess people coming intocommunity and finding that
belonging and finding that theycan be accepted as themselves I
know I don't see the full likejourney as much like sometimes
they'll be like I volunteer atthe Q Center on campus and
sometimes they'll be like highschoolers that are touring
campus and they'll stop by andlike I've talked with some of

(01:27:47):
them and like just like therewill be tears sometimes you wow,
I'll be able to find this kindof community here.
Like things are opening up tome, you know, so that kind of
healing, like yeah, it's very,very cool to see.
And then also when embracingGod, I don't know, I got to have

(01:28:07):
some really cool conversationsthis year through like campus
ministry.
We had a lot of discussionprograms on a lot of really cool
topics like God and like genderand things like that, and just
to hear people's stories of howthey like connect with God
differently and how they connectwith community differently and

(01:28:30):
how they view themselvesdifferently because of like
these more open images of God,like there's one person I was
talking with who, likespecifically did not feel a
connection to God, you know,left spirituality, I guess,
behind a bit because of the likemale image of God and like I

(01:28:51):
can't see myself in this.
I can't see a lot of people thatI know in this, like what does
this have for me?
And then finding that like wow,what if I look at God in like a
more feminine way?
What if I look at God in like agender expansive way or all
these different things?
Then there's like that level ofconnection and there's that I

(01:29:11):
can see myself in the divine andjust like a lot of that echoed
in the personal connection andthe reflection yeah I think
there's a lot of simple thingswe can do to like visibly
accepting.

Karen (01:29:31):
Um, I mean, I wear my cross, I'm uh, at school, but I
you wear a pride t-shirt or uhor something.

(01:30:02):
Or just make a comment and saygive a compliment, um, just
because you're a nice person,like, I think we've lost that
kindness to people, thatkindness If you see someone that
you think is struggling alittle, give a compliment, give

(01:30:23):
a kind word, a smile.
You know, open a door.
It doesn't take much to changesomeone's day and you know
little actions make big ripples.

Ricardo (01:30:39):
It's interesting that probably one of the most simple
ways to not just show allyshipbut leadership towards the
2SLGBTQIA community is justexpressing your pronouns in one
way shape or form.
Wearing a button or a sticker,putting a sticker or a button on
your name tag.
If you have one or every nametag that you have.

(01:31:00):
Or even doing systemic changelike if you're in a capacity to
organize events or conferencesto ensure that pronouns are
something that everybody has tochoose, or not go by any if they
don't want to.
Some people prefer to go juston their first name basis, and
so I want to just read somethingreally quick.
It's not terribly long at all.

(01:31:20):
It's what we put in everysingle one of our conference
programs and it just saysincreasingly, many of us are
expressing their genderidentities and expressions in
ways that are new to some of us.
Inclusion and equity is ourunion's way.
For that reason, we want totake a moment to explain the
importance of acknowledgingeveryone's proper pronouns and
take some time to introduceourselves to each other with

(01:31:42):
those pronouns, and that's whatI mean.
Right, you don't have to say hi, I'm Ricardo.
Why go by he?
They pronouns.
Every single time that getskind of like it's a lot.
Have to say hi, I'm Ricardo.
Why go by he?

Tracy (01:31:50):
they pronouns every single time.
That gets kind of like it's alot.

Ricardo (01:31:55):
But even if you wear a button, somebody who's in the
closet or questioning knows thatyou're almost a safe person to
say it.
So we go on to say some of usprefer she, her or he, him,
while others prefer more neutralpronouns like they, them.
Many folks, especially in the2SLGBTQ plus community, identify
as non-binary or gender fluid,someone who doesn't identify as
exclusively male or female inthe context that we know today
and as union leaders, it isessential that we acknowledge

(01:32:17):
and respect this by using theirproper pronouns all the time.
Nothing is more impersonal thanthe way people refer to us by
our names and our pronouns.
Accurately using a person'schosen name and chosen pronoun

(01:32:42):
is a part of.
There may be a lot of learningthat we have to do, but small
little symbols of we're tryinggoes a lot further than you need
to fit in.
Yeah.
Right, and that's where we allhave to start right.
And in a world where maybe youare just as offended by what's

(01:33:10):
going on in the political andthe social discourse in the
world right now, but you don'tknow where to start and you
don't know how to even begin toexpress even some sort of
solidarity with the communitiesthat are being targeted, you can
at least say you're tryingrather than keeping quiet right.

(01:33:34):
Stuff like you know, pronounpins, or even stuff like wearing
a small rainbow on your jacket,or even just like educating
yourself.
That's what I was just going tosay, reading something.

Lor (01:33:51):
Here's a very very.

Bill (01:33:52):
I don't think.
I don't think I'm oversharingif I am, you'll call me to task
for it later but the primeexample would be we actually had
an email or a text interchange,right?
A couple of weeks ago where Iwas like this is probably the
stupidest question I could ask,and I mean, I've known you for a
while, right, but I was writinga description for this episode
and I was like okay, so am Iusing queer, am I using

(01:34:14):
non-binary?
What's the actual like?
What would you prefer I use?
And then I sat and I waitedBecause you were like-.

Ricardo (01:34:21):
I was in the US.
I was in the US and I turned mydata off because I could charge
$14 a day.

Bill (01:34:24):
And I go through this process in my head, like did I
ask an offensive question?
Did I not do it right?
Did I miss the one thatactually mattered?
Right, like this whole thing.
And then finally, sorry, I justgot this now because I've been
down in the us and didn't have asignal, or whatever right so um
, but it's just.
It's just like I think theeffort matters more than

(01:34:46):
anything else right um more thanlike it's.
It's okay to not know, um, butit's not okay to pretend you
don't know, right.
And it's certainly not okay tothen make the assumption or go
for the categorical, you know,just normative, whatever.
Right?
So in an ideal world?

(01:35:07):
So what I keep telling my kidsis ask them their pronouns,
because if they argue with youabout it or get ridiculous about
it, you know they're not a safeperson to talk about anything
else with.
That is the simplest of thesimple right.
If they're going to get hung upon that, don't start talking to
them about anything else,because if they can't just say

(01:35:30):
he, him or she, her or they,them or whatever, without a
running discourse to go with it,they're not going to be a safe
place to talk about anythingdeeper or certainly much more
vulnerable in a safe way, right?
So the effort truly matters,right, more than anything else,

(01:35:52):
if you can just acknowledge thatyou don't know everything.

Ricardo (01:35:56):
We can all see why book bans are so horrifically
damaging to children.
And I mean, I think we allagree on two things, a that no,
three things.
The easiest one is there aresome books that probably
shouldn't be out there, yeah,yeah, I agree.
Someone that was in powerbetween 1930 and 1945, maybe his

(01:36:18):
book shouldn't be in chapterstoo much, right, but there is a.

Bill (01:36:23):
Who are you talking about?

Ricardo (01:36:26):
There and he was burning books, remember.

Bill (01:36:29):
Right Book back.
There is when you limitpeople's learning by ban burning
books.
Remember Book back.

Ricardo (01:36:32):
When you limit people's learning by banning books, you
limit anyone's ability to eventry, right?
And the third thing, when itcomes to people saying, well, we
have to protect the childrenfrom, we have librarians for a
reason, university educatedpeople that say maybe kids
shouldn't read this, okay, andwe're not going to put this here
, but when they can understandwhat it is, it's available at a

(01:36:55):
library, a public one, right?
Like there are people that aresmarter than the governments who
are banning books, who aremaking those conscious decisions
for children but also sayingthat kids need to learn about
all aspects of life.
And this is is why we have totry.
And you know, when thegovernment of Alberta, they're
pushing that bar as far as theycan.

(01:37:18):
And when they talked about bookbans, my heart sank because I
had my coworkers.
I don't know, I shouldn't saythat, but yeah, I did.
Well, you know, he came out asbi eventually, but he told me
first or very early on and Ididn't know, like how safe the

(01:37:39):
surrounding, like I knew myco-worker was safe because we
talked about it all the time.
I just didn't know how.
So I like wrapped a book about,like exploring bisexuality and
I slid it in his backpack whenhe came and I was like there's
something in your backpack.
If you're not safe at home, youknow, open it up when you're in
the washroom or whatever and hewas all happy.
But I thought to myself like ifthat book could just be there
in the library for them to like,explore and learn in a safe

(01:38:01):
place?
Libraries should be safe spacesand this is what I'm saying
like, um, I was super happy withMcDougal when we opened up the
whole 2SLGBT section in thelibrary and bought a whole bunch
of books and put them in there.
Like I don't know how busy ourlibrary is of Jen's like crazy
stamping cards, I don't know,but we have to try, yeah, and

(01:38:23):
that library does exist.

Bill (01:38:25):
Yeah, absolutely Right.

Tracy (01:38:27):
I always taught my kid that whatever books get banned
are the ones you should read,just saying as long as they're
age appropriate.

Karen (01:38:35):
I mean, I think there's still a banning out right.

Bill (01:38:37):
Probably means you should read it, maybe not at the age of
eight.

Tracy (01:38:40):
Not right now.
Yeah, exactly that's right, butyeah.

Karen (01:38:43):
I mean there are inappropriate materials
depending on the age andmaturity of children, and I work
at a junior high, so it's agrade 6 to 9.
So we have to have books forgrade 6 students who maybe read
at a grade 5 level.
We also have books for grade 9students who read at a grade 10

(01:39:04):
level.
So years ago when I started, Iput dots on my books with the
suggested reading levels on them.
Now that's not a suggestedreading level that I come up
with, that's from libraryservices.
You know United LibraryServices.
These are expert people whoactually go through the books

(01:39:26):
and determine what the readinglevel is for these books.
My concern about thegovernment's ban is that you
have a partisan government whois influenced by lobby groups
determining which books arebeing banned rather than having
a conversation with the CanadianLibrary Association, with the
Alberta Library Association, andhaving a conversation.

(01:39:49):
What books are appropriate doyou deem appropriate in this
list?
Why?
Why not?
And then decide which books, ifwhich books can be pulled, and
when that conversation didn'thappen, when you don't turn to
the experts in what books areappropriate for which students,

(01:40:16):
you are missing it so clearly,the mark, so clearly, of what
education is all about.
I mean, you are limitingeducation and that is a slippery
slope, as we found in the 1930s, 40s.

Bill (01:40:35):
And probably now in the 2020s.
Yeah.
So I'm sensitive to time.
I want to wrap this up.
We do something here.
Last thought, sort of down thetable.
I'm going to question this one,though, or I'm going to add a
question to this one.
So if you could rewrite oneline, either in the social
discourse of our day right nowor in the church's theological
messaging about God as itrelates to your identity, your

(01:40:59):
gender, who you are, rewrite Ifyou could rewrite one line
currently social discourse,church discourse what would you
write in its place, and why?

Ricardo (01:41:11):
And I'm going to start with Ricardo, because I haven't
asked many tough questionstonight- I'm not sure that I
would rewrite anything, but I'dcertainly add more gay people in
the Bible and while theyprobably do exist, I was going
to say do you think they're notthere now?

Bill (01:41:25):
No, they probably do exist .

Ricardo (01:41:27):
They may have tried to be rewritten out or written out
through different subsequentversions of the Bible.
I know for a fact thatthroughout history there were
times when openly queer peoplewere actually quite well
accepted and you know, discoursechanged and people were
persecuted for whateverfashionable persecution at the
time was, whatever fashionablepersecution at the time was.

(01:41:50):
But if we had in the Bible likean actual, like story of a
queer couple that ended up happyand God loved them and had
children you know what I'msaying Then that would change
the whole course of history.
Because whoever picked out thewords out of the Bible to attack
certain groups of individualscaused a lot of historical and

(01:42:13):
tragic drama throughout ourentire time.
And I think to myself how muchdifferent the world would be if
Christianity had maintained thebook of love rather than
dominance and conversion.
Right Tracy.

Tracy (01:42:36):
Yeah, I would echo that.
It is unfortunate that therewas a mistranslation of the
Bible in 1946, and that gotglobbed onto by a lot of extreme
Christian groups, and so I kindof wish that that hadn't
happened.
But it was a United Churchminister that called them to

(01:42:59):
tasks to tell them that was amistranslation.
So that's kind of nice for us.
United Church people.
Remind anybody that says that,especially Christians who are on
a mission to convert people toChristianity.

(01:43:20):
I would remind them that thefirst people that were told
about Jesus's birth wereshepherds, the lowest of the low
in society, and the second weremagi from faraway lands,
essentially scientists, who wereled to the birth of Jesus or to

(01:43:43):
the childhood home of Jesus andnot to be converted, to come as
they were, come as who they areand just bask in.
This is the being that I havesent to to teach people about
love and acceptance, and theyleft without being converted.
They left another way, and sothat's one thing that I would

(01:44:05):
just yeah for me.

Lor (01:44:08):
I guess I look back on my own kind of like putting
together of queerness andChristianity in like what I
believed in, like who I was, andthe kind of fundamental turning
point for me was like findingthis foundation of like safety
and security and like belovedstatus, rather than having this

(01:44:29):
like internal debate of like, oh, if I am queer, well, I knew I
was queer.
If God truly thinks that likequeerness is a sin, then like am
I like inherently less loved orlike that kind of fearful
theological and not also nottheological only, but like
political discourse on people'slike status in the church and

(01:44:56):
their status as just like humanpeople with dignity and humanity
, just to give it all thefoundation of safety and
belovedness and yeah.

Karen (01:45:22):
And I think I would encourage people to lean into
the true identity of belovedchild of God.
There's no gender in that,there's no binary in that.
There's no other than belovedchild of God.
And I think if people what I'mseeing is if people who are

(01:45:53):
attacking the non-binary and the2SLGBTQ2S plus community, the
queer community, hold up amirror to the Pharisees and see
how different you are or how thesame, because Jesus came to
preach love and acceptance tothe marginalized, to those on
the brink of society, to thosewho were not accepted.

(01:46:13):
And if Jesus preached love andacceptance to all the people
that were cast out of themainstream society and everyone
else, the Pharisees and everyoneelse was throwing laws at them
this, that and the other thing.
This is why you can't do itthen how much more are you like
the Pharisees to thoseoppositions than you are like

(01:46:34):
Jesus?
Which side are you on of thatmirror?
I want to be on the side ofJesus.

Bill (01:46:45):
All right.
In the Exodus story the peopledon't just walk out of Egypt
it's not out of Egypt into thepromised land.
They wander and they wrestleand they forget and they
remember and they complain a loton the way.
I'm reminded that anytime youtry to leave empire, anytime you

(01:47:09):
try to leave dynamics orstructures of power and control,
it isn't a one-and-done kind ofan event.
It actually ends up being muchmore of a practice, and dare I
say even a spiritual practice ina lot of ways.
Sometimes the hardest partisn't crossing the Red Sea of

(01:47:33):
our day, it's letting go of thegods that kept you small, or the
pharaohs that kept you small,or the powers that kept you
small.
So if by chance.
Something tonight stirredsomething in you.
If you're questioning theimages of God that you were
handed, that doesn't mean thatyou're losing your faith.
It might mean that you'refinally setting it free.

(01:47:56):
To our panelists tonight, toRicardo and Tracy and Laura and
Karen, I want to say thank you.
Thank you for a robustconversation and for your
witness and your wisdom and yourwillingness to actually walk
this path out loud and with agreat deal of vulnerability.
I'm really grateful for allyour voices here tonight and

(01:48:19):
very thankful.
And to those of you who arelistening whether you're
listening or online or part ofour live audience here today
again, thank you for listeningand for being here, either in
person or online, to hear.
But I want to say the followingplainly, because I always get
the last word To those of youwho were raised to believe that

(01:48:40):
God hates you, that your genderor your body or your love makes
you unworthy that was a lie.
Yes, you are not broken.
Or your love makes you unworthy.
That was a lie.
Yep, yes, you are not broken.
You are beloved, always havebeen and always will be.
To those of you who are raisedto believe that God hates others

(01:49:02):
and you are trying to learn adifferent way.
Keep going different way.
Keep going Because unlearningEgypt is holy, sacred work.
And to those of you who wake upevery day and fight for the
dignity of others in classroomsand boardrooms and libraries,

(01:49:22):
and picket lines and pulpits,thank you.
Thank you for all of the workand know that you are not alone.
And to anyone who is stillwandering in the wilderness,
unsure if there is a promisedland on the other side of all of
this undoing there is.
They're honest to God and truly, as the story is not finished

(01:49:43):
yet and you are still a part ofthe story and always will be.
So, it is my hope and my prayerthat, as we leave here tonight,
we will keep walking the roadand we will keep unlearning
Pharaoh and making room for theGod who says I am who I am, and

(01:50:03):
maybe we can continue to leaveEgypt together.
So until next time this hasbeen prepared to to drown, thank
you, and take care ofyourselves and each other.
And happy, pride, happy pride.
Thank you, happy pride that's itfor this episode.

(01:50:27):
But just because the mic turnsoff doesn't mean the work does.
If something you heard tonighthit close to home or cracked
open an old image of God, don'tpush it away.
Sit with it and let it move you, because this isn't just about
belief.
It's about survival andbelonging and dignity and
reclaiming the sacred from thosewho've tried to gatekeep it.
You can find more atPreparedToDrowncom, with full

(01:50:48):
episodes and blog posts behindthe scenes, extras and ways to
connect.
Subscribe wherever you get yourpodcasts and if you want to
help fuel these conversations,we'd love to have you on our
Patreon.
Until next time, keep walking,keep unlearning and keep leaving
Egypt.
We weren't made for closets orfor cages.
We were made to be free, andthe only way that we do that is

(01:51:09):
together.
I'm Bill Weaver.
This has been Prepared to Drownand happy Pride.

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Episode 9 - Parting the Binary: Let My Gender Flow

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 9 - Parting the Binary: Let My Gender Flow