May 20, 2025 • 52 mins
Dr. LaToya Abrams shares her unexpected journey from aspiring backup dancer to accomplished counselor, professor, and business owner. Her path was shaped by personal connections to mental health challenges and a desire to increase representation for Black Americans in the counseling field.
• Originally wanted to be a backup dancer and choreographer before switching from business to psychology
• Pursued multiple degrees to deepen her knowledge after seeing family members struggle with mental health issues
• Faced challenges as a young Black woman whose competence was often questioned in professional settings
• Developed strategies to maintain boundaries between work and home life to prevent burnout
• Built a private practice after years of working in challenging environments like methadone clinics
• Balances teaching as a tenured track assistant professor with running her own counseling practice
• Lives with multiple sclerosis, which has deepened her understanding of disability and person-centered care
• Emphasizes the importance of knowing the communities you serve and their specific needs
Visit essenceofhealingllc.com to learn more about Dr. Abrams' services and approach to counseling.
Thanks for listening!
Until next time, continue to press into your purpose!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello and Hello, and welcome to today's episode of
(00:30):
Pressed Into Purpose.
I am your host, Valeria Wright.
Now let's meet today's guest.
Dr Latoya L Abrams is a nativeand current resident of Chicago,
illinois.
Dr Abrams attended RooseveltUniversity, where she received
her BA in psychology and MA inclinical professional psychology
.
She has an MA in forensicpsychology with a concentration
(00:55):
in law enforcement from ArgosyUniversity.
Dr Abrams also received her PhDin counselor education and
supervision from AlderUniversity.
She is a licensed clinicalprofessional counselor in
Illinois, a licensed mentalhealth counselor in Indiana and
a national certified counselor.
(01:15):
Dr Abrams has been in thecounseling field for 15 years,
providing individual therapy invarious settings.
Dr Abrams is currently atenured track assistant
professor at Chicago StateUniversity in the Counseling and
Psychology Department.
She has authored severaljournal articles and book
chapters.
She currently serves as thepresident of the Illinois
(01:39):
Association for Couples andFamily Counseling.
She is also the CEO and founderof the Essence of Healing LLC.
Please help me welcome DrLaToya Abrams.
Hello, hi, how are you?
I am wonderful, good, good,good, so glad to have you today.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Thank you, I am so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I am, as I was reading through your bio and as
I've gotten to know you a littlebit, some of the things I was
thinking I was like has shealways, like from a child, been
like a counselor or wanted to bea counselor?
Because, listen, you have doneall the things In counseling.
So I guess I'll start with thefirst question.
(02:24):
Yes, what made you choosecounseling as a profession?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Ooh, you know what I'm going to backtrack because
this was not in the cards for me.
Okay, this was not somethingwhere I woke up and, like you
know how kids say I want to be adoctor, I want to be a lawyer.
I never woke up and said Iwanted to be a counselor, I
wanted to be a doctor, I want tobe a lawyer.
I never woke up and said Iwanted to be a counselor, I
wanted to be a backup dancer.
Are you serious?
I wanted to do choreography,okay, okay, I always liked to
(02:52):
dance, liked to sing, do thosetype of things, and so, as I got
older, you're in high school,they're talking to you about
careers and you're trying tofigure out.
okay, now we'll be in the backof dance and you know, provide
it's going to pay the bills,we'll just pay some rent, you
know things of that nature, andso I was like I may have to
(03:13):
switch some things, I may haveto think about what I really
want to do, and so I thinkcounseling came.
Let me backtrack again Iactually majored in business.
Okay, I do not like math.
I think pretty much all themath class I touched in college
not so great.
(03:34):
And I remember calling my motherand I told her I said, if I
fail this next math exam, I'mdropping this program and then
I'm going to go over topsychology.
Okay, and that's what I did,wow.
And so, learning about the mind, how humans work, why they
engage in certain behaviors, Istarted to become more
interested.
(03:54):
Now, fast forward, I'm in theprogram and I'm like seeing
things around me and so,personal history I had an uncle
uncle may his soul rest in peacewho suffered with schizophrenia
and alcoholism.
And then I knew people whosuffered from depression and
anxiety and I'm like what doesit mean to be a person with
anxiety?
What does it mean to havedepression?
(04:15):
What does it mean to have amental illness?
And so that's what made mereally get into the field and
learn more.
And specifically for blackAmericans, because I didn't for
black Americans?
Okay, because I didn't seeblack therapists.
Whenever you watch TV, youwould see white counselors on TV
.
And so I was still like isthere a space for me in the
(04:36):
counseling field?
And the more I went throughschool and I would do homework
assignments and I'm watchingvideos for classes, I'm like,
okay, so there are someAfrican-American therapists out
here, but I think I've alwaysbeen nosy too.
I'm going to just be honest.
I think I've always been nosyand I knew how to ask the right
(04:57):
questions to get the informationthat I needed.
It's important.
It's important, and so that'swhat kind of drove me to be a
counselor is that I've alwaysheard people say you have the
spirit of help, like you, justlike helping people, yeah, and
at first I'm like I never reallythought about it.
I'm like I just want to be herefor other people, I want to be
(05:17):
a listening ear.
I never tied it to anything, Ijust thought I was being a good
person, a good friend, right.
But I think it took on a lifeof its own where it was like not
only was I listening, but Icould also provide some type of
advice.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Okay, that was helpful.
Okay, okay, wow, back updancing.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
I know my mother.
When she found that out she waslike ooh, I am so glad you did
not tell me that, Because shesaid I was not going to, Uh-uh,
she wasn't going.
No, she wasn't going for that,no.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
So you talked about going to school and then seeing
some things in your family andwith people around you At what
moment, and you also talkedabout how you changed from a
business major to psychology.
And so what then prompted you?
(06:15):
Because you have severaldegrees in psychology, so what
made you pursue each one ofthose?
And then what?
I guess a better question iswhat intrigued you about the
different topics?
So you have the forensics.
You've got, you know, themental health, you've got all
the things.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
So again, another funny story is I never wanted to
go to college.
Okay, so it amazes people thatthey hear my background.
They're like oh so you justknew you wanted to go to school.
No, I never wanted to go tocollege.
That was never my idea and orplan.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Um, me and my mother had a discussion close to
graduation from high school andI said you know, I don't think I
really want to go to college.
Okay, and the first thing shesaid well, what's your plan?
Right, and I'm like to behonest, I don't have one.
And she said so here she Ithink she reversed psychology.
(07:10):
The first thing she said well,let's do this go to school for a
year, midway point I'm going tocheck in with you and see what
your plan is.
Okay, we can revisit theconversation.
Okay, she checked in with me.
She said so, what plan?
I said I still don't have one.
Okay, and as you can see, fourdegrees later, I guess I never
came up with a plan because Istayed, and I think I also
(07:33):
stayed because I started to likeit.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I started to learn different.
And so when I got into thepsychology field, it was
interesting to learn about thebrain, like the brain has always
fascinated me, human behaviorhas always fascinated me,
because I would see people andI'm like what would make you
engage in this behavior, rathergood or bad.
And so, learning about thebrain, I'm figuring like, ok,
(07:55):
how can I use this in the future, knowing that in our field it
wasn't enough just to have abachelor's degree, like we had
to go further.
I ended up doing clinicalpsychology because then I was
like, yes, I just to have abachelor's degree, like we had
to go further.
I ended up doing clinicalpsychology because then I was
like, yes, I want to be atherapist, like this is what I
want to do.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I want to go back into my community.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
I want to help the people who look like me to have
a better outcome, a better lifeForensic.
I'm going to be honest.
I went back to school because Ithink I got bored, because I
never had a lapse in schooling,so it was like school all the
way up to 18.
And then I was just like I don'tknow what to do with myself.
(08:33):
But forensics I was alwaysinterested in because I would
watch crime shows, gotcha, I wasalways interested.
And please, people don't thinkI'm strange I was always
interested in serial killers andkind of what made them tick.
Okay, like what?
Because no one wakes up saying,hey, today is a good day to be
(08:53):
depressed, use drugs and or be aserial killer?
We hope not.
We hope not, right?
And so I was always intriguedby stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
It scared the people in my family, and so I mean, I
have a couple of people in myfamily that I'm like, really,
this is what you want to knowabout.
Yeah, and they said the samething.
I just want to know what makesthem tick.
I need to know.
I don't need to know, but thankGod for you.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
And so I was thinking that I wanted to do crime scene
work and then I heard what itentailed and blood and all this
stuff and I was like maybe thisis not for me.
Okay, you know, it was a goodidea in the beginning and so I
kind of moved away from that.
It did help me in my backgroundbecause I used to work for a
(09:41):
methadone clinic, so it kind ofhelped me in that space.
Wow.
And then I was like you knowwhat?
I have master's degrees, let'sgo ahead and do the doctoral
degree.
At this point my mind shiftedto more of I still want to do
counseling, but I think I wantto teach now.
Ok, I want to show other peoplehow to do what it is that I do,
(10:04):
okay, so I think that's kind ofhow I came to be in those
different fields.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
So how far along in your career were you before you
said I need to go back and getthis PhD?
Ooh.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
I think I had been doing counseling already for
almost 10 years.
I started very young.
I started counseling like at 23.
Wow 23, 24.
And then at that point I wasjust like I think I was over it,
I was burned out, okay, okay, Idon't think people really know
(10:36):
what goes into being a therapist.
Yeah, the mental energy that ittakes, the spiritual energy
that it takes, yes, the physicallabor.
And having worked in amethadone clinic for two years,
I was wiped out.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I was depleted.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Hearing those stories I was just like I don't know if
I can do this for the rest ofmy life.
Yeah, Because it was justemotionally, it was taxing.
Yeah, it was it was a goodexperience, yeah, but it was
like weighing on me.
So I think at that point I wasjust like you know what.
I know there's other avenues inthis field.
(11:15):
I need to tap into that, gotcha, and I think when I went back
to school to do that, I was likeokay, I think I found where I
really want to be.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So what was your PhD?
It's a counselor education andsupervision.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
What did that entail?
Talk me through that.
Yes, what does that?
What did that entail?
Talk me through that.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
So pretty much what that is.
It is already counselors in thefield, but now we're learning
how to teach others to do whatwe do.
Ok, so I'm teaching about microskills.
I'm teaching you how to dotreatment plans in the
counseling field.
I'm showing you how to diagnosepeople in the counseling field.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
So and doing research in the counseling field.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
So'm showing you how to diagnose people in the
counseling field.
So and doing research in thecounseling field, so it it walks
you through that process.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Okay, okay, and so so now you are teaching at the, at
the college level, and what so?
What do you enjoy aboutteaching?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Oh, so many things.
Ok, I think it's reallyrewarding to see the students
grasp the information.
Ok, it is also rewarding for meto see them become licensed in
this field, because when theycome in they're kind of like I
don't know if this is for me.
They're fresh, they're verygreen, they don't they.
(12:39):
Some students know some thingsbut they don't know the ins and
out of counseling.
So to see them go from deer inheadlights to like I got this,
like I got I'm in internship andI have seven clients, dr Abrams
, and I'm doing all theseamazing things like that really
does warm my heart yeah, itreally really does.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Okay, yeah, um, what challenges have you faced along
the way, because I know that, uh, you are an educated, talented,
(13:18):
beautiful black woman inAmerica.
Yes, and I know, being a blackwoman in America, that is not an
easy space to be in in variouscircles.
Yeah, and just in general, whatchallenges have you faced along
the way?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
um, in the field, I think right off two things.
When I was younger, it was age.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
And then also the competency level.
So people like to question yourcompetency, um, as a woman, as
a black woman, and then as ayoung black woman.
So we got the triple, thetrifecta, yes, yes, okay.
And so the challenge was how doI find a balance in this
(14:08):
without having thatstereotypical label of being
aggressive or angry yes yes,Because I was very passionate.
Yeah, and I come.
I become very passionate whenpeople want to kind of test the
waters with me If I I'm going tosay it really nice.
And so when I worked in placeswhere there may be of other
(14:31):
people, it was a lot of learninghow to stand my ground.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Yes, say what I need to say with the firmness and
assertiveness.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
But also trying to be authentic to myself, because I
feel like I had to code switchyes In those settings, right,
and so I'm like I can't beLatoya, as me and my husband
like to call her Latanya.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
We like to give her a different name.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
I can't be her in these settings because people
are easily offended or sensitiveand they don't know how to take
that, and so it became anxietyprovoking for me because I'm
like how do I show up today?
Who is the individual that'sgoing to come in today?
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Latoya, is it Dr Abrams?
Like who is the individual?
And I don't think people knowhow mentally exhausted it is to
code switch.
Oh, listen that is a that is asegment all by itself, For sure.
You know, if you ever get someother ideas, code switch is
(15:42):
another one, because I don'tthink people really understand
how taxing it is for black women, how we have to really
consciously think about showingup, yes, and how we show up and
so some of the challenges.
I'm a girl who likes to weardifferent colored braid hair in
her hair.
And so one day you may see mewith some green and black braids
(16:03):
, some purple and some blue, andI was like do I cut this out
now?
Do I stop doing these things?
Because I don't want my whitecounterparts to look at me like
oh, is she a?
Speaker 1 (16:15):
professional Right.
We can't take her seriously.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Right, and so that was another thing.
And thank God for my cousins DrLockhart, sherry, brandy, all
my good people who were likeyour professionalism isn't tied
to your aesthetic.
You look professional.
What does your hair color haveto do with what comes out of
your mouth?
So those were some challenges.
And then just also just findingmy footing.
(16:39):
You know, being young and whenyou're working with seasoned
people, I'm going to be honest,they're not quick to help you.
They want they.
You know, it's kind of like I'mgoing to hold on to this
information.
I'll give you little tidbits,okay, but then you swim and you
fish for yourself and you figureit out.
And so those were kind ofchallenges.
But thank goodness that I'm thetype where you know what that's
(17:01):
.
Okay, I'm going to figure itout, I'm going to figure it out.
You give me one little clue,trust me, I'll figure out the
rest.
Okay, okay, I'm good.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I didn't think about the young part, but in thinking
about you being a youngcounselor, I think about because
we judge people.
Look, everybody judges.
We all have moments when we,you know, are our best selves
and we prejudge people.
I remember going to counselingfor the first time and I prayed
(17:37):
and I was like God, I need acounselor, therapist, but I need
them to be a Christian.
Yeah, and you know, becauseit's important to me that I,
that whoever is counseling me,had aligns with the values that
I have, and so because I tried atherapist before, well, I guess
it was the second time I wasgoing to therapy.
(17:58):
First time I went to therapy, Iwent to this lady and, look,
god bless her.
But she was a.
She was an older woman, olderwhite woman, and when I, when I
sat and talked with her about myissues and I was having issues
in my marriage at the time, Iwas having issues in my marriage
at the time within the firstvisit she not only, you know,
(18:18):
she validated some things thatyou know, some things that I
said, but then she diagnosed myhusband and I was like, oh, no,
wait now.
And he was not present he wasnot present.
it was only the hour session andI'm the person that tries to
tell the whole story.
So I told things that were onmy heart, that were troubling me
(18:42):
.
I shared the things that werethat I had seen in him, but when
she started diagnosing him Iwas like now I don't think that
that's what one should do.
And so when I walked out ofthere, I was validated but
disturbed all at the same time.
You know what I mean.
(19:03):
So I was like, okay, well, letme.
I was like well, God.
He was like don't go back toher, yeah.
And so I was like, okay, that'swhat made me start looking for
a Christian therapist.
And so now I'm sitting in frontof this Christian therapist,
but she was younger than I wasand I was like, okay, she's
younger than me, she's a whitewoman.
How can she help me?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I'm just being honest , right?
No, that is the sentiment.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Because you brought it up, and so you know, I just
want to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yeah, so I sat there and I started sharing my story
and all the things I shared, youknow once again about my
marriage and all the differentthings.
She listened to me and she saidcan we pray?
I was shocked yes, I see it Now.
(19:53):
Mind you, I looked for aChristian therapist but I was
like can we pray?
Anybody ask?
Speaker 3 (19:58):
me that before in therapy.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
And I was, like sure, you know, kind of nervous,
right, and the first thing shesaid was God, you are the God of
miracles.
We need you to work a miraclein this situation.
It changed my entire view ofher, the person I had prejudged.
Because she was young, becauseshe was white, because she was
(20:23):
you know, I felt like how canshe really help me?
And she hasn't been doing thisvery long, right, but she had.
But she knew when her strengthcame from and she also had the
tools, because you know, you allgo to school for years for this
.
Yeah, and so it it it quickly.
I quickly changed my opinion ofher and I was able to hear and
(20:45):
receive from her, because shestarted and she said, can we
pray?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, and I was like wow, yeah, okay, and then we
went on for several sessionsafterwards and it was great, you
know here's the thing that I dowant people to understand when
they do see a young therapistand I have to tell my students
this because they are youngadults you're gonna get that,
but don't take it personal yeah,you can't take any of these
(21:13):
things that happen in thesecounseling spaces personal yeah
because if you do, you will beat home crying in the corner,
you know, because everything isgoing to hurt your feelings.
And I'll never forget one of myclients and she ended up loving
me without missing session, andI'll never forget.
I opened the door and I heardher say the first thing she said
and it better not be a youngperson either.
(21:35):
I opened the door and she waslike, oh, and I told her the
thing I said.
I said I heard what you said.
I said I'm not offended, Iunderstand.
I said, but I ask that you giveme a chance.
If it does not work for youafter this first session, you
have autonomy, which means youcan definitely not see me again.
(21:57):
Yes, we went on until I leftthe company and she was
devastated when I left.
She was like oh, my God will youleave it, I was like yes, but
she was like I'm glad I took achance on you.
Yeah, she said because this wasone of the best experiences
that I had with therapy.
And she said I saw you as a kid, but she was like you're so
wise Right.
You're so wise, you're full ofwisdom.
(22:17):
I'm like well thank you.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
I try and I think that's something that we all
need to just kind of checksometimes, yeah, because it
comes from a place of ego too.
It does Because we're like,well, you can't possibly know
what I need or know how to helpme, exactly because you're young
(22:43):
, right, or you're differentthan me, you look different than
me and I'm it's, it's, you know, I never I've thought about it
before, but I don't know thatI've thought about it like this.
Yes, I'm thinking about all thetherapists and counselors that
I've had it before, but I don'tknow that I've thought about it
like this.
Yes, I'm thinking about all thetherapists and counselors that
I've had.
I mean, I've only had what likefour over, you know, the past
(23:06):
10, 12 years or so, but oh mygosh, they've all been white.
I don't think I've ever had ablack therapist I've ever had,
of black therapists, but I willsay that they all acknowledge in
the beginning that we do havedifferent life experiences.
Yes, they all acknowledge thatthere may be some things that
(23:29):
they might not quite understand.
And if it gets to the pointwhere you know I feel like I
need somebody different, they'reall they were.
They've all been like, hey,it's OK, yeah, and I understand,
and I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yes, because I think people, especially therapists,
in this field, especially ifthey're seasoned it's almost and
I hate to say this because I'mpart of the profession but some
of them feel like I still havesomething to prove.
Or I'm going to show that I amthe expert, prove, or I'm going
(24:04):
to show that I am the expert,and so they tend to hold on to
people that they really shouldbe letting go, that you're doing
a disservice because you'retrying to prove a point yes,
that I have 40 years in thefield and I can fix whatever
this issue is, and it's likeit's okay if this does not work,
if this is not a good fit.
That's when we have to say youknow what?
This isn't working and, Valeria, you may have to go to somebody
else, because I think we cappedout in this relationship.
(24:28):
And it's hard for people to saythat, especially like if this is
your field and you are trainedin it.
It's hard for people to say Idon't think I can service this
person because I don't think Ihave the tools for them, and
that's okay.
It doesn't mean that you're notcompetent, right, it's just
that you don't have what'sneeded for this person.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
And it's okay, because counseling and therapy
really is personal.
Oh so personal, it is reallypersonal.
How are you able to deal withall of those heavy and personal
things and not bring them home?
Speaker 3 (25:04):
That took some time, okay, when I was working for the
methadone clinic in a placebefore that, it was hard.
It was very, very hard.
I would go home with thesestories on my mind.
I was dreaming about theseindividuals.
It was not inappropriate, butjust like I didn't see this
person today, where were theyLike, are they okay?
(25:24):
And I did not know how to shutanything off.
It got to the point where I wastelling people please do not
ask me about my day because Idon't want to talk about it,
gotcha.
And my mother was like, well,I'm going to ask you about your
day because you need to talkabout it, Right.
But as I got further in thefield, I found a place where
what happens here is going tostay here, right, I would share
(25:47):
with my partner at the time orwith my mom.
I was like I'll give you guysfive minutes of that, yeah.
And then I'm not going to talkabout it anymore because I was
re-traumatizing myself with thestories that I was hearing.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
So I had to set a boundary for myself that when I
got home I'll give you guys fiveminutes of what happened in my
workday.
But this is not going to be anall-day conversation because I
mentally could not handle itanymore.
Gotcha, and especially workingin a methadone clinic I mean
hearing stories of how peopleended up on drugs, was it's not
for the faint of heart, and so Iwas like I'm going to hear this
(26:25):
here but I'm going to leave ithere, and I had to learn.
That took time, but eventually Igot it.
I was just like, nope, nottoday, not today, we are done.
I even had it was to a pointI'm telling like coworkers, if
you need me after hours, pleasecall the director.
Like, do not call me, because Ihad to create a safe space for
(26:45):
myself.
My entire day could not be work.
I still have a life outside ofthis and I had to learn how to
carve that out for myself.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Today's episode is brought to you by Destiny Film
and Media.
Go to destinyfam1.com for allyour media needs.
Destiny Film and Media yourdestiny through film and media.
What are some of the tools thatyou use to be able to carve
(27:14):
that out for yourself?
Speaker 3 (27:15):
I'm learning how to.
One thing one of my co-workerstaught me was to be mindful of
the music that I would listen to.
Okay, okay, I did not like mycoworkers at the methadone
clinic.
I'm sorry I didn't.
Some of them I did.
I grew to have very goodrelationships, but I noticed
that, for a place that I didn'tlike, I was listening to trap
(27:37):
music at 5 o'clock in themorning.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Oh my gosh Right.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Oh yeah, you definitely five o'clock in the
morning.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Oh my gosh Right.
Oh yeah, you definitely.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
That was not a good idea because it set the tone for
my day.
So I'm like listening to thisrah-rah, aggressive music and
then I'm walking into this placeat 5.30 in the morning with
this aggressive, rah-rahattitude and she told me I'll
never forget.
She told me.
She said you need to changewhat you listen to in the
morning.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
She said you need to change what you listen to in the
morning.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Yeah, she said I found a YouTube station that has
nothing but meditation music,white noise.
Okay, and that's what I woulddo.
Okay, I would listen tomeditation music, pray, because
the good Lord knows Listen, thatI needed it, listen.
And I was like, let me justhave a conversation, yeah, even
down to just deep breathing,just getting myself together.
(28:24):
And I would do that after myclients because I'm like this is
heavy, Like you could feel it.
Yes, and I'm just like okay,let me take 10 minutes.
Let me debrief with myself.
Let me talk to God.
Like Lord.
What was this?
Can we talk a little bit,Listen, and then I would put on
my music.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
And that's what I would continue to do.
Now that I have my privatepractice, it's a little bit
better because I'm in my ownhome, so I drink my tea.
I could step away from myworkspace, clear my mind, go for
a drive, come back see my nextclient.
But I really had.
And my biggest issue isconsistency in things.
(29:04):
Okay, okay, I would start outI'd be like, okay, I feel good,
and then I would just stop doingall of it, like not listen to
my stuff anymore, oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
And then I'm like, oh , got to do it again and you
would go through the cycle.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
I would go through the little hamster wheel of
things and I'm like, toya, wouldyou just stay consistent please
?
And so I had to tell myself beconsistent in what you're doing.
Cause that was one of mybiggest challenges was just
being consistent in things, andso that's what I do.
If I have to sit down at home,read the Bible.
I listen to the Bible on myphone in between clients.
(29:39):
Keep me some snacks, cause youknow you gotta have you some
snacks.
Get your.
You know you got to have yousome snacks.
You got to have a good snack.
Get your cold water or whateverit is that you're drinking, and
then just let that be.
And even since my office is inmy home, I had to have
boundaries with that.
Yes, I don't do work in my room.
Yes, because that's our privatetime.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
My office is for work and.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I had to remember that.
Yes, yes, yeah, remember that.
Yes, yes, yeah, that's, that's,that's good.
Those are, those are good tools, good tools.
So what do you?
So you are, you are still young, relatively young, and so what
do you look forward to?
You've accomplished so muchalready.
What do you, what are youlooking forward to?
Speaker 3 (30:16):
I think now what I'm looking forward to is facing
some fears, ok so, and what thatentails is learning how to be
comfortable with public speaking.
I cannot stand it.
I cannot stand it.
Ok, I teach people like, well,you teach.
It's different because I knowthe bodies that sit in those
(30:38):
seats and I'm like I feel likeI'm a master of those topics and
I feel like I can a master ofthose topics and I feel like I
can research anything and bepretty good at it.
Yeah, it's being in thosespaces where I'm like at
conferences and part of my workjob is to like go out and
present into all of these things.
And I was just telling mybosses I'm like girl, I don't
(31:00):
know now, but that is a fear ofmine that I want to conquer,
because I'm like I can be outhere doing TED Talks.
Absolutely, why not me?
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Listen, you know, listen, my TED Talk is on the
way.
Okay, I am speaking it intoexistence.
It is coming.
Listen, we're going to be.
We're going back to back TEDTalk on the stage.
Listen, let's do it.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Let's do it.
I was like I know I can do thisand you see certain famous
people out here doing this stuff.
I'm like now they can do it.
Surely, surely, jesus, yes,lord, absolutely I can.
But I learned in this journey Iam my biggest critic.
I never needed anybody elseListen To talk me out of
(31:42):
anything.
Who you telling and I would sitand have ideas.
And I'm just like, before youknow it, I've talked myself out
of three things already.
And my dear husband, who I love, who I love.
He gives me the motivation.
Okay, he does.
He talks to me and I'm justlike I don't, I don't think I
(32:02):
can do this, I'm not going to doit.
Yeah, and he's like why and I'msitting here, are you giving me
therapy, are you being mytherapist now?
And when he questions me, itmakes me question myself Like
why, why can't I do this?
Why am I talking myself out ofthese things?
Yeah, and so I'm learning howto not operate out of fear.
(32:25):
Yeah, because I feel likethat's when everything just
tends to fall apart.
Listen, because your mind isnot there.
Yeah, it's already set up thatthis is not going to work.
Correct, this is going to fail.
Go ahead and do it, because Ialready told you it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
People listen, people don't always think about it,
but there's not only the fear offailure, there's also the fear
of success, and for a long time,I was afraid that I would
actually succeed at doing all ofthe things that God gave me.
You know what I'm saying.
I was like that, you know Godgave me you know what I'm saying
(33:02):
and so I just wouldn't.
I was like, well, well, what ifit really works?
Or what if it really does takeoff?
Then what?
And it's like, well, great then.
But in my mind it was like, but, but then what?
Like I can't, what, like what?
I was afraid of what would haveto come next?
Yes, in my head, yes, I had allthese things.
(33:25):
Well, if, if this succeeds, orwhen this succeeds, then I'm
gonna have to do this.
Or then, if I, if I achievethat goal, then yes, what's left
?
What's left?
And I, I don't know, it's justyeah, I have worked very hard to
overcome the fear of successover these last four years, even
(33:51):
with this podcast.
Like I in 2020, god gave thisto me and we're in 2025 and I'm
just now executing.
You know what I'm saying.
I had to get over so manydifferent things that I didn't
like about myself or I wasn'tconfident about myself.
And so I say to you like,record yourself talking.
(34:18):
You know, look, look back at it, get accustomed to hearing your
voice, because that was one ofthe things that I struggled with
.
I struggled with I didn't likethe sound of my voice.
And it's so crazy because yourvoice is very soothing.
Well, thank you.
And I was like nobody has evertold you that your voice sounds
(34:39):
crazy.
Exactly, why is it that you are?
Why don't you like your voicecrazy?
Exactly, why is it that you are?
Why are you?
Why don't you like your voice?
You've had the same voice, yourentire life.
And nobody has ever complainedabout it.
Exactly why are you?
Speaker 3 (34:51):
It was craziness, you know, I kind of think about and
it's so crazy we me and Darianwas listening to like the story
of Adam and Eve and how theybecame embarrassed once they
realized like, oh my God, we'renaked and everything.
It's kind of like children wehave no shame, right.
We have no fear, right.
We do all of the things.
(35:11):
All of the things, Whether theyfail succeed or not, but it's
like you hit that adolescentyear and you recognize the shame
, you recognize theembarrassment, yeah, and you're
just like.
I don't want to do this Becausethe people they can see me,
right, as if they didn't see youbefore, like did they not see
(35:32):
you at 12?
Did they not see you at 11?
But at 13 and 14 and 15, theysee you, right, right, you
become very well aware of all ofthe things, and that's what I
don't like.
I was like I like it.
When I was a kid.
I just went out here and didrandom stuff.
Clothes didn't match, hey.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
I love my hair.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
I'm out here just doing the stuff.
But then you become an adult orteenager and you're like people
are staring, People havecritiques.
Do I fit the mold?
You have 1,003 questions.
Do I look the part Do?
Speaker 1 (36:03):
I sound.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Okay, like you said, I didn't like the sound of my
voice either.
I'm like this is the same voicethat the Lord gave me, and it's
beautiful.
And it's beautiful, but it'slike, for some reason, I don't
want to see myself on camera.
It's like you had the sameaesthetic since you were a child
.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
What's different?
Speaker 3 (36:20):
today and I think, once I realized and it's so
crazy because I teach my clientshow to do these things and I'm
sitting here like I am havingthe hardest time executing-
trying to execute and implementfor myself, and it's so crazy,
like even with my own business.
I sat on that idea since 2018.
(36:40):
Wow, okay, I had the paperworkin the system, really, and I
stopped because the first thingI said was uh-uh, what if this
does not work?
What if I don't get clients?
What about money?
What about this?
That?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
and the third.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
When me and my husband reconnected in 2021, and
he was like you know, you're atherapist, have you ever thought
about having your own business?
I said it's funny you say that.
I said I've been sitting onthat idea since 2018.
I said my paperwork is sittingin the state system or whatever
it is.
And he's like so what are youdoing?
I say, well, nothing, right, Iwas like I'm not doing anything.
(37:20):
He was like so you don't wantto work for yourself, you don't
want to have your own?
I was like I do want to have myown.
He said so again what are youdoing?
I'm like this man.
You have not been in my lifebut a teaspoon of a minute and
you are like pushing me.
And when people start to push,I start becoming resistant and
(37:45):
it turns into irritability.
Okay, Because I'm like okay,stop pushing me.
Yeah, but I know you're pushingme for the right thing, right,
right, I'm just uncomfortable.
I like comfort.
Yes, I like behind the scenethings we all do.
When you tell me to step twoinches to the left out of this
comfort box, I'm sitting herelooking at you like, okay,
that's enough of being on ourside of the box, put me back in
(38:13):
Listen.
Put me back in the box and Isaid you know what, since you
are giving me the motivation,I'm going to do this.
Okay, I said I'm going to seehow this goes.
Yeah, mine was already doingwhat it wanted to do.
Okay, girl, go ahead and see ifyou want to.
I said, okay, he helped me withthe legal Zoom stuff and he got
me all of that.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
But it was a sense of pride when I saw on like August
16, 2021.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
I remember that Come on, come on.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Well, they were like your paperwork is in the system.
You are now the essence ofhealing LLC.
I'm like, wow, I cried, and I'mnot a crier.
I cried tears of joy because Ihad never in my wildest dreams
and he even said it.
We've been knowing each othersince we were 13.
He was like you couldn't havenever told me that you were
(38:59):
going to be a doctor.
Wow, he said, because I saw howyou acted in high school.
I was like, yeah, 20 did thebare minimum.
As long as I passed.
I'm good, smart kid.
I just didn't feel the need toapply myself, yeah.
But he was like I wouldn't havenever guessed this, wow.
And he was like this is amazing.
I'm like I'm scared, but I'mlike happy, yes.
And then I stopped using theword scared and started saying
(39:20):
nervous.
Okay, because I feel like thoseare two different emotions.
Like nervousness, I'll still doit.
I'm just nervous, right, butit's pushing me.
Yes, because I'm like thenerves are.
They're pushing me.
When I'm scared, I becomestagnant and I don't do anything
, okay, and so I startedchanging my vocabulary around
that and I'm like I've been inbusiness three years Come on and
(39:40):
my cousin she works with me andso me and her are doing the
thing.
But I was like I would neverguess that I would have my own
business and my mom and my dadloves to brag on that.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
I bet, because they should be peacock proud, as my
dad would say.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
I just never.
That was just never the vision.
I don't know if I really had aconcrete vision for myself,
because I just never thoughtabout things.
I was just the kid who was like, okay, I'll do something, if it
don't work, we're going to moveon to the next.
But I was very proud and Ithanked God every day because I
was like what about money.
I paid for my business out ofpocket.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Come on, people are like what?
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Because the money fell in my lap and I was just
like come on.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
I am a firm believer.
Whenever you begin to walk anddo what you're supposed to be
doing, what God has laid on yourheart to do, then he is going
to work everything out.
And look, our pastor says Godalways gives provision for his
vision.
And so you stepped out on thebusiness because it had been on
(40:49):
your heart for a very long time,and so it was obviously
something that God had for youto do, and you've been
successful in it.
And you know, I stepped out onfinally saying, ok, I'm going to
do this podcast.
And when everything lined upthe way that it was supposed to
line up, yeah, and it has been,dare I say, easy, yes, yes, I
(41:15):
struggled for so many years,fighting against it, fighting
against my own progress,fighting against my own blessing
that I was praying for Because,wait?
So the Bible also says that Godgives us witty ideas and a
vengeance, right, and so hegives us these things.
(41:35):
And then we're scared so thatwe don't do it Exactly, scared
so that we don't do it Exactly.
And then we get frustrated andirritated and upset when things
aren't going the way that wethink that they should be going
and we're not seeing the resultsthat we think we should see
when, if we just go back to dowhat he said to do in the first
(41:56):
place Exactly, look at howthings work out.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
And stop working on your own timing.
That's one of my biggest issues.
I am very much so an instantgratification type person.
I am very.
I need this to happen today.
If I lay out this plan in themorning, I need to see the fruit
of this plan Tonight, tonight.
(42:21):
And I think you know God toldme one day baby girl, that is
not how this works and I was thetype where I would pray for
things, but I was still doingstuff.
I wasn't the type to pray, sitback, relax, wait, let God do
his thing.
I'm like I think God need alittle assistance.
Let me, let me and he does notneed my help Listen and it's one
(42:45):
thing for faith without works.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
You know what I'm saying?
Faith without works is dead.
So you do have to have someaction, you know.
Put your faith to action.
However, there are other thingsthat we're just doing.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Busy work, yeah, and they have nothing to do with
Nothing, wasting time and energy, and you're just like let me
and my mother, my grandmother,everybody, if you're gonna pray
about it, you shouldn't worryabout it.
Yes, so they would tell me, ifyou're gonna worry, then you
need not pray, because thatmeans you're not trusting in
what he's capable of doing.
Yes, so I was like you guys areabsolutely right and so.
(43:18):
I had to learn that the hard way.
It came to me.
So now I pray and I'm like it'sfrom my mind I'm going to just
let that be.
But that took some time becauseI operate some time out of
anxiousness and that's when alot of things can fall apart,
Exactly Because I'm like OK, Ipray, now what are we doing?
(43:43):
I'm shaking, I'm walking aroundand I'm like no, you got to
learn how to sometimes just sit,yes, Be still and be quiet.
Exactly, my therapist told methat she said sometimes you just
need to sit and be quiet.
And I looked at her.
I said girl, for how long Isthere a time limit on this?
She was like try for a minute.
I.
(44:04):
She was like try it for aminute.
I tried it and I was like Idon't know.
This is a lot.
But you learn a lot aboutyourself when you quiet the
noise.
Yes, I didn't know how to quietthe noise and now that I do
know how to quiet the noise, Ihear better, I see things better
and I'm like okay, this is howI need to be moving.
Yeah, I was leaning a lot on myown understanding, which we
(44:26):
know we should not be doing.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
We should not, but in all our ways, acknowledge him
and he shall direct our path.
You know, that's what it says.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
And that's where I came to like.
You know what, if I'm going topray about it, I'm not going to
worry about this thing.
I was like, however the Lordsee fit to grow this business.
That's just how it's going tobe, and it's been doing well.
You know, it works for mebecause I do have a full-time
job.
So I don't take on too manyclients, okay, but it works.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
It works and I can still do what I love to do, but
at my own leisure, gotcha it wasdifferent when you're working
for a company and it's you gotto see these many clients.
You got to do this you got todo that.
It takes the passion awaybecause I felt like it was more
corporate goal driven than I.
Want you to really sit down andhelp this individual because
(45:16):
there was a number, a goal tiedto it.
Now, me doing my own thing,it's like I can really help the
people how I need to help thepeople.
Can be people focused and notprofit focused, exactly so
that's why I'm just like I lovemy business.
I do, I love it.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
I love it.
I love this for you, thank you.
So, as we wrap up theconversation, if you were to
give and I know you havestudents, so maybe it's a blast
that you give your students, butwhat advice would you give to
someone who is thinking aboutgoing into the psychology field
(45:56):
or the counseling field?
What advice would you give them?
Speaker 3 (46:01):
The first thing I would say is definitely have a
passion for it.
Do not make money the focus,because it's not always there
Right, and I want people to knowthat, because when we think of
therapy and counseling, we havea Hollywood sensationalized
opinion about therapy.
(46:22):
When I started out, I worked Itell people all the time I
worked at some janky places.
I didn't get my first paycheckor my last paycheck from one
company.
Oh honey.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Rough times oh, that's a whole mess.
Speaker 3 (46:34):
A whole hot, flaming mess.
Have a passion for it.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
And I say a passion, because you are sitting in front
of people who had enoughcourage to come in and say I'm
going to sit in front of astranger and share my
deep-seated issues with thisindividual in hopes that this
person will not judge me and canassist me in growing from this
place.
Yeah, I would also tell them toset boundaries.
(47:00):
This field takes a lot out ofyou, and I don't say that to
scare people, but it does.
You have to have boundaries.
They're for other people, butthey're for yourself too.
So, learning how to set healthyboundaries and just love what
you do, have a zeal to helppeople.
(47:20):
If you know that helping peopleis not what you like to do, I
do not advise you to be in thisprofession.
If you're coming here for themoney, I'd advise you to go
somewhere else To find somethingwhere I knew, probably from a
young age, that I wanted to helppeople.
(47:41):
I just did not know in whatcapacity that I wanted to help
people.
After having personalinteractions with people who
experienced mental health issues, I was like, yeah, I think this
is where I needed to be,because now I'm seeing more
black and brown people havingmental health issues and not
(48:01):
receiving the services that theyneed, and me myself having my
own struggles with anxiety andthen also having, you know, some
physical health challenges.
I don't know if you know I havemultiple sclerosis.
Well, they gave me.
They want to say that I did notknow that.
You know I have multiplesclerosis.
Well, they gave me.
They want to say that Got you.
I did not know that, I was notaware, and so that was a
challenge at school, because ithappened while I was in my
(48:22):
doctoral program.
Wow, and so losing the abilityto sometimes walk, hold a pen,
to talk.
When it first happened, Ithought I was having a stroke.
Wow, it was crazy.
I like fell down a flight ofstairs because I lost all
sensation on my white side, andso seeing people and I always
say people with, because it'speople is person centered
(48:45):
language.
You're not a schizophrenic,you're not depressed.
You are a person whoexperiences these things, and so
I want people to learn how tosee themselves outside of what
people like to label you.
You're still a person, yes, andso having my own challenges with
some things made me viewcounseling in a different way.
(49:05):
Because we treat people whostruggle with mental health
issues or physical disabilities.
We treat them different.
We marginalize them.
That is true, and at some pointI was one of those people.
Yeah, because I didn't knowwhat that's like.
I'm like, oh, they're different, like what's wrong with them?
It took for me to see my ownpersonal stuff family members to
(49:27):
be like, yeah, yeah, I need tohave a different outlook on
people.
So I would definitely encourageto please just have a passion
for it.
Okay, really, just love whatyou do, set boundaries and
continue to grow in this field.
Our field changes five to tenyears.
There's always some newinformation.
Okay, stay on top of what'shappening in this counseling
(49:50):
field so that you can betterserve your community.
Yes, and lastly, know thepeople that you serve community.
Yes, and lastly, know thepeople that you serve.
Nothing irks me more thanoutsiders coming into the
community and you do not knowthe people that you serve.
You don't know the neighborhoodthat you're in.
I always tell my students whenyou go into these people's
neighborhoods, you're a guest.
Yes, which means I need to knowwhat's in your neighborhood.
(50:12):
So if you come in and you'retelling me I have two kids, I
don't have food at home, I needto know where the nearest food
pantry is for you.
I need to know where your kidscan go and get their shots for
free.
I need to know where thenearest place to get coats if
it's cold outside.
Know the individuals thatyou're serving.
People come in and they're justlike oh, I'm just here, because
(50:35):
I'm here, I need the creditsfor class or I'm trying to
satisfy some loan.
They said if I come into theinner city, this is no, ok,
that's not enough.
I need you to know who you'reserving.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Yeah, yeah, because that's important to me it
absolutely is, because you cando people more of a disservice.
Yeah, when you don't take timeto learn.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:55):
So of a disservice when you don't take time to
learn?
Yeah, so just be open and justhave a willingness to learn from
your client.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
Okay, well, I thank you.
Thank you For taking time to.
I appreciate you.
I thank you for taking the timeto talk to me today and I just
want is there, do you have awebsite?
Speaker 3 (51:17):
I do so.
It's essenceofhealingllccom.
You can see all the information, the services that we provide,
bios of myself and my cousin.
You can get it all there.
I write blogs sometimes.
I've been lacking on that, butyeah.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Okay, so essenceofhealingllccom.
All right.
Well, thank you, Dr Abrams,once again, and thank you
everyone for listening.
We will catch you next time onPressed Into Purpose.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
I'm a hard person to be a friend Really, no way you
say that.
But I feel like I'm a hardfriend because I'm always trying
to like hold friendsaccountable.
Yes, and you know, I mean, andI would expect the same thing,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
You know whatever.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
But I just feel like that's why some of them have
gone for a season.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
Listen because everybody does not want to be
pushed.
Yes, everybody does not want toor hear the truth, listen
everybody does not want to bepushed.
Speaker 2 (52:17):
Everybody does not want to or hear the truth.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
Listen?
Everybody does not.
Today's episode is brought toyou by Destiny Film and Media.
Go to destinyfam1.com for allyour media needs.
Destiny Film and Media yourdestiny through film and media.
Hello and Hello, and welcome to today's episode of
(00:30):
Pressed Into Purpose.
I am your host, Valeria Wright.
Now let's meet today's guest.
Dr Latoya L Abrams is a nativeand current resident of Chicago,
illinois.
Dr Abrams attended RooseveltUniversity, where she received
her BA in psychology and MA inclinical professional psychology
.
She has an MA in forensicpsychology with a concentration
(00:55):
in law enforcement from ArgosyUniversity.
Dr Abrams also received her PhDin counselor education and
supervision from AlderUniversity.
She is a licensed clinicalprofessional counselor in
Illinois, a licensed mentalhealth counselor in Indiana and
a national certified counselor.
(01:15):
Dr Abrams has been in thecounseling field for 15 years,
providing individual therapy invarious settings.
Dr Abrams is currently atenured track assistant
professor at Chicago StateUniversity in the Counseling and
Psychology Department.
She has authored severaljournal articles and book
chapters.
She currently serves as thepresident of the Illinois
(01:39):
Association for Couples andFamily Counseling.
She is also the CEO and founderof the Essence of Healing LLC.
Please help me welcome DrLaToya Abrams.
Hello, hi, how are you?
I am wonderful, good, good,good, so glad to have you today.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Thank you, I am so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I am, as I was reading through your bio and as
I've gotten to know you a littlebit, some of the things I was
thinking I was like has shealways, like from a child, been
like a counselor or wanted to bea counselor?
Because, listen, you have doneall the things In counseling.
So I guess I'll start with thefirst question.
(02:24):
Yes, what made you choosecounseling as a profession?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Ooh, you know what I'm going to backtrack because
this was not in the cards for me.
Okay, this was not somethingwhere I woke up and, like you
know how kids say I want to be adoctor, I want to be a lawyer.
I never woke up and said Iwanted to be a counselor, I
wanted to be a doctor, I want tobe a lawyer.
I never woke up and said Iwanted to be a counselor, I
wanted to be a backup dancer.
Are you serious?
I wanted to do choreography,okay, okay, I always liked to
(02:52):
dance, liked to sing, do thosetype of things, and so, as I got
older, you're in high school,they're talking to you about
careers and you're trying tofigure out.
okay, now we'll be in the backof dance and you know, provide
it's going to pay the bills,we'll just pay some rent, you
know things of that nature, andso I was like I may have to
(03:13):
switch some things, I may haveto think about what I really
want to do, and so I thinkcounseling came.
Let me backtrack again Iactually majored in business.
Okay, I do not like math.
I think pretty much all themath class I touched in college
not so great.
(03:34):
And I remember calling my motherand I told her I said, if I
fail this next math exam, I'mdropping this program and then
I'm going to go over topsychology.
Okay, and that's what I did,wow.
And so, learning about the mind, how humans work, why they
engage in certain behaviors, Istarted to become more
interested.
(03:54):
Now, fast forward, I'm in theprogram and I'm like seeing
things around me and so,personal history I had an uncle
uncle may his soul rest in peacewho suffered with schizophrenia
and alcoholism.
And then I knew people whosuffered from depression and
anxiety and I'm like what doesit mean to be a person with
anxiety?
What does it mean to havedepression?
(04:15):
What does it mean to have amental illness?
And so that's what made mereally get into the field and
learn more.
And specifically for blackAmericans, because I didn't for
black Americans?
Okay, because I didn't seeblack therapists.
Whenever you watch TV, youwould see white counselors on TV
.
And so I was still like isthere a space for me in the
(04:36):
counseling field?
And the more I went throughschool and I would do homework
assignments and I'm watchingvideos for classes, I'm like,
okay, so there are someAfrican-American therapists out
here, but I think I've alwaysbeen nosy too.
I'm going to just be honest.
I think I've always been nosyand I knew how to ask the right
(04:57):
questions to get the informationthat I needed.
It's important.
It's important, and so that'swhat kind of drove me to be a
counselor is that I've alwaysheard people say you have the
spirit of help, like you, justlike helping people, yeah, and
at first I'm like I never reallythought about it.
I'm like I just want to be herefor other people, I want to be
(05:17):
a listening ear.
I never tied it to anything, Ijust thought I was being a good
person, a good friend, right.
But I think it took on a lifeof its own where it was like not
only was I listening, but Icould also provide some type of
advice.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Okay, that was helpful.
Okay, okay, wow, back updancing.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
I know my mother.
When she found that out she waslike ooh, I am so glad you did
not tell me that, Because shesaid I was not going to, Uh-uh,
she wasn't going.
No, she wasn't going for that,no.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
So you talked about going to school and then seeing
some things in your family andwith people around you At what
moment, and you also talkedabout how you changed from a
business major to psychology.
And so what then prompted you?
(06:15):
Because you have severaldegrees in psychology, so what
made you pursue each one ofthose?
And then what?
I guess a better question iswhat intrigued you about the
different topics?
So you have the forensics.
You've got, you know, themental health, you've got all
the things.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
So again, another funny story is I never wanted to
go to college.
Okay, so it amazes people thatthey hear my background.
They're like oh so you justknew you wanted to go to school.
No, I never wanted to go tocollege.
That was never my idea and orplan.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Um, me and my mother had a discussion close to
graduation from high school andI said you know, I don't think I
really want to go to college.
Okay, and the first thing shesaid well, what's your plan?
Right, and I'm like to behonest, I don't have one.
And she said so here she Ithink she reversed psychology.
(07:10):
The first thing she said well,let's do this go to school for a
year, midway point I'm going tocheck in with you and see what
your plan is.
Okay, we can revisit theconversation.
Okay, she checked in with me.
She said so, what plan?
I said I still don't have one.
Okay, and as you can see, fourdegrees later, I guess I never
came up with a plan because Istayed, and I think I also
(07:33):
stayed because I started to likeit.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I started to learn different.
And so when I got into thepsychology field, it was
interesting to learn about thebrain, like the brain has always
fascinated me, human behaviorhas always fascinated me,
because I would see people andI'm like what would make you
engage in this behavior, rathergood or bad.
And so, learning about thebrain, I'm figuring like, ok,
(07:55):
how can I use this in the future, knowing that in our field it
wasn't enough just to have abachelor's degree, like we had
to go further.
I ended up doing clinicalpsychology because then I was
like, yes, I just to have abachelor's degree, like we had
to go further.
I ended up doing clinicalpsychology because then I was
like, yes, I want to be atherapist, like this is what I
want to do.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I want to go back into my community.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
I want to help the people who look like me to have
a better outcome, a better lifeForensic.
I'm going to be honest.
I went back to school because Ithink I got bored, because I
never had a lapse in schooling,so it was like school all the
way up to 18.
And then I was just like I don'tknow what to do with myself.
(08:33):
But forensics I was alwaysinterested in because I would
watch crime shows, gotcha, I wasalways interested.
And please, people don't thinkI'm strange I was always
interested in serial killers andkind of what made them tick.
Okay, like what?
Because no one wakes up saying,hey, today is a good day to be
(08:53):
depressed, use drugs and or be aserial killer?
We hope not.
We hope not, right?
And so I was always intriguedby stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
It scared the people in my family, and so I mean, I
have a couple of people in myfamily that I'm like, really,
this is what you want to knowabout.
Yeah, and they said the samething.
I just want to know what makesthem tick.
I need to know.
I don't need to know, but thankGod for you.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
And so I was thinking that I wanted to do crime scene
work and then I heard what itentailed and blood and all this
stuff and I was like maybe thisis not for me.
Okay, you know, it was a goodidea in the beginning and so I
kind of moved away from that.
It did help me in my backgroundbecause I used to work for a
(09:41):
methadone clinic, so it kind ofhelped me in that space.
Wow.
And then I was like you knowwhat?
I have master's degrees, let'sgo ahead and do the doctoral
degree.
At this point my mind shiftedto more of I still want to do
counseling, but I think I wantto teach now.
Ok, I want to show other peoplehow to do what it is that I do,
(10:04):
okay, so I think that's kind ofhow I came to be in those
different fields.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
So how far along in your career were you before you
said I need to go back and getthis PhD?
Ooh.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
I think I had been doing counseling already for
almost 10 years.
I started very young.
I started counseling like at 23.
Wow 23, 24.
And then at that point I wasjust like I think I was over it,
I was burned out, okay, okay, Idon't think people really know
(10:36):
what goes into being a therapist.
Yeah, the mental energy that ittakes, the spiritual energy
that it takes, yes, the physicallabor.
And having worked in amethadone clinic for two years,
I was wiped out.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I was depleted.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Hearing those stories I was just like I don't know if
I can do this for the rest ofmy life.
Yeah, Because it was justemotionally, it was taxing.
Yeah, it was it was a goodexperience, yeah, but it was
like weighing on me.
So I think at that point I wasjust like you know what.
I know there's other avenues inthis field.
(11:15):
I need to tap into that, gotcha, and I think when I went back
to school to do that, I was likeokay, I think I found where I
really want to be.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So what was your PhD?
It's a counselor education andsupervision.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
What did that entail?
Talk me through that.
Yes, what does that?
What did that entail?
Talk me through that.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
So pretty much what that is.
It is already counselors in thefield, but now we're learning
how to teach others to do whatwe do.
Ok, so I'm teaching about microskills.
I'm teaching you how to dotreatment plans in the
counseling field.
I'm showing you how to diagnosepeople in the counseling field.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
So and doing research in the counseling field.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
So'm showing you how to diagnose people in the
counseling field.
So and doing research in thecounseling field, so it it walks
you through that process.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Okay, okay, and so so now you are teaching at the, at
the college level, and what so?
What do you enjoy aboutteaching?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Oh, so many things.
Ok, I think it's reallyrewarding to see the students
grasp the information.
Ok, it is also rewarding for meto see them become licensed in
this field, because when theycome in they're kind of like I
don't know if this is for me.
They're fresh, they're verygreen, they don't they.
(12:39):
Some students know some thingsbut they don't know the ins and
out of counseling.
So to see them go from deer inheadlights to like I got this,
like I got I'm in internship andI have seven clients, dr Abrams
, and I'm doing all theseamazing things like that really
does warm my heart yeah, itreally really does.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Okay, yeah, um, what challenges have you faced along
the way, because I know that, uh, you are an educated, talented,
(13:18):
beautiful black woman inAmerica.
Yes, and I know, being a blackwoman in America, that is not an
easy space to be in in variouscircles.
Yeah, and just in general, whatchallenges have you faced along
the way?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
um, in the field, I think right off two things.
When I was younger, it was age.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
And then also the competency level.
So people like to question yourcompetency, um, as a woman, as
a black woman, and then as ayoung black woman.
So we got the triple, thetrifecta, yes, yes, okay.
And so the challenge was how doI find a balance in this
(14:08):
without having thatstereotypical label of being
aggressive or angry yes yes,Because I was very passionate.
Yeah, and I come.
I become very passionate whenpeople want to kind of test the
waters with me If I I'm going tosay it really nice.
And so when I worked in placeswhere there may be of other
(14:31):
people, it was a lot of learninghow to stand my ground.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Yes, say what I need to say with the firmness and
assertiveness.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
But also trying to be authentic to myself, because I
feel like I had to code switchyes In those settings, right,
and so I'm like I can't beLatoya, as me and my husband
like to call her Latanya.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
We like to give her a different name.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
I can't be her in these settings because people
are easily offended or sensitiveand they don't know how to take
that, and so it became anxietyprovoking for me because I'm
like how do I show up today?
Who is the individual that'sgoing to come in today?
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Latoya, is it Dr Abrams?
Like who is the individual?
And I don't think people knowhow mentally exhausted it is to
code switch.
Oh, listen that is a that is asegment all by itself, For sure.
You know, if you ever get someother ideas, code switch is
(15:42):
another one, because I don'tthink people really understand
how taxing it is for black women, how we have to really
consciously think about showingup, yes, and how we show up and
so some of the challenges.
I'm a girl who likes to weardifferent colored braid hair in
her hair.
And so one day you may see mewith some green and black braids
(16:03):
, some purple and some blue, andI was like do I cut this out
now?
Do I stop doing these things?
Because I don't want my whitecounterparts to look at me like
oh, is she a?
Speaker 1 (16:15):
professional Right.
We can't take her seriously.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Right, and so that was another thing.
And thank God for my cousins DrLockhart, sherry, brandy, all
my good people who were likeyour professionalism isn't tied
to your aesthetic.
You look professional.
What does your hair color haveto do with what comes out of
your mouth?
So those were some challenges.
And then just also just findingmy footing.
(16:39):
You know, being young and whenyou're working with seasoned
people, I'm going to be honest,they're not quick to help you.
They want they.
You know, it's kind of like I'mgoing to hold on to this
information.
I'll give you little tidbits,okay, but then you swim and you
fish for yourself and you figureit out.
And so those were kind ofchallenges.
But thank goodness that I'm thetype where you know what that's
(17:01):
.
Okay, I'm going to figure itout, I'm going to figure it out.
You give me one little clue,trust me, I'll figure out the
rest.
Okay, okay, I'm good.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I didn't think about the young part, but in thinking
about you being a youngcounselor, I think about because
we judge people.
Look, everybody judges.
We all have moments when we,you know, are our best selves
and we prejudge people.
I remember going to counselingfor the first time and I prayed
(17:37):
and I was like God, I need acounselor, therapist, but I need
them to be a Christian.
Yeah, and you know, becauseit's important to me that I,
that whoever is counseling me,had aligns with the values that
I have, and so because I tried atherapist before, well, I guess
it was the second time I wasgoing to therapy.
(17:58):
First time I went to therapy, Iwent to this lady and, look,
god bless her.
But she was a.
She was an older woman, olderwhite woman, and when I, when I
sat and talked with her about myissues and I was having issues
in my marriage at the time, Iwas having issues in my marriage
at the time within the firstvisit she not only, you know,
(18:18):
she validated some things thatyou know, some things that I
said, but then she diagnosed myhusband and I was like, oh, no,
wait now.
And he was not present he wasnot present.
it was only the hour session andI'm the person that tries to
tell the whole story.
So I told things that were onmy heart, that were troubling me
(18:42):
.
I shared the things that werethat I had seen in him, but when
she started diagnosing him Iwas like now I don't think that
that's what one should do.
And so when I walked out ofthere, I was validated but
disturbed all at the same time.
You know what I mean.
(19:03):
So I was like, okay, well, letme.
I was like well, God.
He was like don't go back toher, yeah.
And so I was like, okay, that'swhat made me start looking for
a Christian therapist.
And so now I'm sitting in frontof this Christian therapist,
but she was younger than I wasand I was like, okay, she's
younger than me, she's a whitewoman.
How can she help me?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I'm just being honest , right?
No, that is the sentiment.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Because you brought it up, and so you know, I just
want to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yeah, so I sat there and I started sharing my story
and all the things I shared, youknow once again about my
marriage and all the differentthings.
She listened to me and she saidcan we pray?
I was shocked yes, I see it Now.
(19:53):
Mind you, I looked for aChristian therapist but I was
like can we pray?
Anybody ask?
Speaker 3 (19:58):
me that before in therapy.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
And I was, like sure, you know, kind of nervous,
right, and the first thing shesaid was God, you are the God of
miracles.
We need you to work a miraclein this situation.
It changed my entire view ofher, the person I had prejudged.
Because she was young, becauseshe was white, because she was
(20:23):
you know, I felt like how canshe really help me?
And she hasn't been doing thisvery long, right, but she had.
But she knew when her strengthcame from and she also had the
tools, because you know, you allgo to school for years for this
.
Yeah, and so it it it quickly.
I quickly changed my opinion ofher and I was able to hear and
(20:45):
receive from her, because shestarted and she said, can we
pray?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, and I was like wow, yeah, okay, and then we
went on for several sessionsafterwards and it was great, you
know here's the thing that I dowant people to understand when
they do see a young therapistand I have to tell my students
this because they are youngadults you're gonna get that,
but don't take it personal yeah,you can't take any of these
(21:13):
things that happen in thesecounseling spaces personal yeah
because if you do, you will beat home crying in the corner,
you know, because everything isgoing to hurt your feelings.
And I'll never forget one of myclients and she ended up loving
me without missing session, andI'll never forget.
I opened the door and I heardher say the first thing she said
and it better not be a youngperson either.
(21:35):
I opened the door and she waslike, oh, and I told her the
thing I said.
I said I heard what you said.
I said I'm not offended, Iunderstand.
I said, but I ask that you giveme a chance.
If it does not work for youafter this first session, you
have autonomy, which means youcan definitely not see me again.
(21:57):
Yes, we went on until I leftthe company and she was
devastated when I left.
She was like oh, my God will youleave it, I was like yes, but
she was like I'm glad I took achance on you.
Yeah, she said because this wasone of the best experiences
that I had with therapy.
And she said I saw you as a kid, but she was like you're so
wise Right.
You're so wise, you're full ofwisdom.
(22:17):
I'm like well thank you.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
I try and I think that's something that we all
need to just kind of checksometimes, yeah, because it
comes from a place of ego too.
It does Because we're like,well, you can't possibly know
what I need or know how to helpme, exactly because you're young
(22:43):
, right, or you're differentthan me, you look different than
me and I'm it's, it's, you know, I never I've thought about it
before, but I don't know thatI've thought about it like this.
Yes, I'm thinking about all thetherapists and counselors that
I've had it before, but I don'tknow that I've thought about it
like this.
Yes, I'm thinking about all thetherapists and counselors that
I've had.
I mean, I've only had what likefour over, you know, the past
(23:06):
10, 12 years or so, but oh mygosh, they've all been white.
I don't think I've ever had ablack therapist I've ever had,
of black therapists, but I willsay that they all acknowledge in
the beginning that we do havedifferent life experiences.
Yes, they all acknowledge thatthere may be some things that
(23:29):
they might not quite understand.
And if it gets to the pointwhere you know I feel like I
need somebody different, they'reall they were.
They've all been like, hey,it's OK, yeah, and I understand,
and I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yes, because I think people, especially therapists,
in this field, especially ifthey're seasoned it's almost and
I hate to say this because I'mpart of the profession but some
of them feel like I still havesomething to prove.
Or I'm going to show that I amthe expert, prove, or I'm going
(24:04):
to show that I am the expert,and so they tend to hold on to
people that they really shouldbe letting go, that you're doing
a disservice because you'retrying to prove a point yes,
that I have 40 years in thefield and I can fix whatever
this issue is, and it's likeit's okay if this does not work,
if this is not a good fit.
That's when we have to say youknow what?
This isn't working and, Valeria, you may have to go to somebody
else, because I think we cappedout in this relationship.
(24:28):
And it's hard for people to saythat, especially like if this is
your field and you are trainedin it.
It's hard for people to say Idon't think I can service this
person because I don't think Ihave the tools for them, and
that's okay.
It doesn't mean that you're notcompetent, right, it's just
that you don't have what'sneeded for this person.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
And it's okay, because counseling and therapy
really is personal.
Oh so personal, it is reallypersonal.
How are you able to deal withall of those heavy and personal
things and not bring them home?
Speaker 3 (25:04):
That took some time, okay, when I was working for the
methadone clinic in a placebefore that, it was hard.
It was very, very hard.
I would go home with thesestories on my mind.
I was dreaming about theseindividuals.
It was not inappropriate, butjust like I didn't see this
person today, where were theyLike, are they okay?
(25:24):
And I did not know how to shutanything off.
It got to the point where I wastelling people please do not
ask me about my day because Idon't want to talk about it,
gotcha.
And my mother was like, well,I'm going to ask you about your
day because you need to talkabout it, Right.
But as I got further in thefield, I found a place where
what happens here is going tostay here, right, I would share
(25:47):
with my partner at the time orwith my mom.
I was like I'll give you guysfive minutes of that, yeah.
And then I'm not going to talkabout it anymore because I was
re-traumatizing myself with thestories that I was hearing.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
So I had to set a boundary for myself that when I
got home I'll give you guys fiveminutes of what happened in my
workday.
But this is not going to be anall-day conversation because I
mentally could not handle itanymore.
Gotcha, and especially workingin a methadone clinic I mean
hearing stories of how peopleended up on drugs, was it's not
for the faint of heart, and so Iwas like I'm going to hear this
(26:25):
here but I'm going to leave ithere, and I had to learn.
That took time, but eventually Igot it.
I was just like, nope, nottoday, not today, we are done.
I even had it was to a pointI'm telling like coworkers, if
you need me after hours, pleasecall the director.
Like, do not call me, because Ihad to create a safe space for
(26:45):
myself.
My entire day could not be work.
I still have a life outside ofthis and I had to learn how to
carve that out for myself.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Today's episode is brought to you by Destiny Film
and Media.
Go to destinyfam1.com for allyour media needs.
Destiny Film and Media yourdestiny through film and media.
What are some of the tools thatyou use to be able to carve
(27:14):
that out for yourself?
Speaker 3 (27:15):
I'm learning how to.
One thing one of my co-workerstaught me was to be mindful of
the music that I would listen to.
Okay, okay, I did not like mycoworkers at the methadone
clinic.
I'm sorry I didn't.
Some of them I did.
I grew to have very goodrelationships, but I noticed
that, for a place that I didn'tlike, I was listening to trap
(27:37):
music at 5 o'clock in themorning.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Oh my gosh Right.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Oh yeah, you definitely five o'clock in the
morning.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Oh my gosh Right.
Oh yeah, you definitely.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
That was not a good idea because it set the tone for
my day.
So I'm like listening to thisrah-rah, aggressive music and
then I'm walking into this placeat 5.30 in the morning with
this aggressive, rah-rahattitude and she told me I'll
never forget.
She told me.
She said you need to changewhat you listen to in the
morning.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
She said you need to change what you listen to in the
morning.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Yeah, she said I found a YouTube station that has
nothing but meditation music,white noise.
Okay, and that's what I woulddo.
Okay, I would listen tomeditation music, pray, because
the good Lord knows Listen, thatI needed it, listen.
And I was like, let me justhave a conversation, yeah, even
down to just deep breathing,just getting myself together.
(28:24):
And I would do that after myclients because I'm like this is
heavy, Like you could feel it.
Yes, and I'm just like okay,let me take 10 minutes.
Let me debrief with myself.
Let me talk to God.
Like Lord.
What was this?
Can we talk a little bit,Listen, and then I would put on
my music.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
And that's what I would continue to do.
Now that I have my privatepractice, it's a little bit
better because I'm in my ownhome, so I drink my tea.
I could step away from myworkspace, clear my mind, go for
a drive, come back see my nextclient.
But I really had.
And my biggest issue isconsistency in things.
(29:04):
Okay, okay, I would start outI'd be like, okay, I feel good,
and then I would just stop doingall of it, like not listen to
my stuff anymore, oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
And then I'm like, oh , got to do it again and you
would go through the cycle.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
I would go through the little hamster wheel of
things and I'm like, toya, wouldyou just stay consistent please
?
And so I had to tell myself beconsistent in what you're doing.
Cause that was one of mybiggest challenges was just
being consistent in things, andso that's what I do.
If I have to sit down at home,read the Bible.
I listen to the Bible on myphone in between clients.
(29:39):
Keep me some snacks, cause youknow you gotta have you some
snacks.
Get your.
You know you got to have yousome snacks.
You got to have a good snack.
Get your cold water or whateverit is that you're drinking, and
then just let that be.
And even since my office is inmy home, I had to have
boundaries with that.
Yes, I don't do work in my room.
Yes, because that's our privatetime.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
My office is for work and.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I had to remember that.
Yes, yes, yeah, remember that.
Yes, yes, yeah, that's, that's,that's good.
Those are, those are good tools, good tools.
So what do you?
So you are, you are still young, relatively young, and so what
do you look forward to?
You've accomplished so muchalready.
What do you, what are youlooking forward to?
Speaker 3 (30:16):
I think now what I'm looking forward to is facing
some fears, ok so, and what thatentails is learning how to be
comfortable with public speaking.
I cannot stand it.
I cannot stand it.
Ok, I teach people like, well,you teach.
It's different because I knowthe bodies that sit in those
(30:38):
seats and I'm like I feel likeI'm a master of those topics and
I feel like I can a master ofthose topics and I feel like I
can research anything and bepretty good at it.
Yeah, it's being in thosespaces where I'm like at
conferences and part of my workjob is to like go out and
present into all of these things.
And I was just telling mybosses I'm like girl, I don't
(31:00):
know now, but that is a fear ofmine that I want to conquer,
because I'm like I can be outhere doing TED Talks.
Absolutely, why not me?
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Listen, you know, listen, my TED Talk is on the
way.
Okay, I am speaking it intoexistence.
It is coming.
Listen, we're going to be.
We're going back to back TEDTalk on the stage.
Listen, let's do it.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Let's do it.
I was like I know I can do thisand you see certain famous
people out here doing this stuff.
I'm like now they can do it.
Surely, surely, jesus, yes,lord, absolutely I can.
But I learned in this journey Iam my biggest critic.
I never needed anybody elseListen To talk me out of
(31:42):
anything.
Who you telling and I would sitand have ideas.
And I'm just like, before youknow it, I've talked myself out
of three things already.
And my dear husband, who I love, who I love.
He gives me the motivation.
Okay, he does.
He talks to me and I'm justlike I don't, I don't think I
(32:02):
can do this, I'm not going to doit.
Yeah, and he's like why and I'msitting here, are you giving me
therapy, are you being mytherapist now?
And when he questions me, itmakes me question myself Like
why, why can't I do this?
Why am I talking myself out ofthese things?
Yeah, and so I'm learning howto not operate out of fear.
(32:25):
Yeah, because I feel likethat's when everything just
tends to fall apart.
Listen, because your mind isnot there.
Yeah, it's already set up thatthis is not going to work.
Correct, this is going to fail.
Go ahead and do it, because Ialready told you it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
People listen, people don't always think about it,
but there's not only the fear offailure, there's also the fear
of success, and for a long time,I was afraid that I would
actually succeed at doing all ofthe things that God gave me.
You know what I'm saying.
I was like that, you know Godgave me you know what I'm saying
(33:02):
and so I just wouldn't.
I was like, well, well, what ifit really works?
Or what if it really does takeoff?
Then what?
And it's like, well, great then.
But in my mind it was like, but, but then what?
Like I can't, what, like what?
I was afraid of what would haveto come next?
Yes, in my head, yes, I had allthese things.
(33:25):
Well, if, if this succeeds, orwhen this succeeds, then I'm
gonna have to do this.
Or then, if I, if I achievethat goal, then yes, what's left
?
What's left?
And I, I don't know, it's justyeah, I have worked very hard to
overcome the fear of successover these last four years, even
(33:51):
with this podcast.
Like I in 2020, god gave thisto me and we're in 2025 and I'm
just now executing.
You know what I'm saying.
I had to get over so manydifferent things that I didn't
like about myself or I wasn'tconfident about myself.
And so I say to you like,record yourself talking.
(34:18):
You know, look, look back at it, get accustomed to hearing your
voice, because that was one ofthe things that I struggled with
.
I struggled with I didn't likethe sound of my voice.
And it's so crazy because yourvoice is very soothing.
Well, thank you.
And I was like nobody has evertold you that your voice sounds
(34:39):
crazy.
Exactly, why is it that you are?
Why don't you like your voicecrazy?
Exactly, why is it that you are?
Why are you?
Why don't you like your voice?
You've had the same voice, yourentire life.
And nobody has ever complainedabout it.
Exactly why are you?
Speaker 3 (34:51):
It was craziness, you know, I kind of think about and
it's so crazy we me and Darianwas listening to like the story
of Adam and Eve and how theybecame embarrassed once they
realized like, oh my God, we'renaked and everything.
It's kind of like children wehave no shame, right.
We have no fear, right.
We do all of the things.
(35:11):
All of the things, Whether theyfail succeed or not, but it's
like you hit that adolescentyear and you recognize the shame
, you recognize theembarrassment, yeah, and you're
just like.
I don't want to do this Becausethe people they can see me,
right, as if they didn't see youbefore, like did they not see
(35:32):
you at 12?
Did they not see you at 11?
But at 13 and 14 and 15, theysee you, right, right, you
become very well aware of all ofthe things, and that's what I
don't like.
I was like I like it.
When I was a kid.
I just went out here and didrandom stuff.
Clothes didn't match, hey.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
I love my hair.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
I'm out here just doing the stuff.
But then you become an adult orteenager and you're like people
are staring, People havecritiques.
Do I fit the mold?
You have 1,003 questions.
Do I look the part Do?
Speaker 1 (36:03):
I sound.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Okay, like you said, I didn't like the sound of my
voice either.
I'm like this is the same voicethat the Lord gave me, and it's
beautiful.
And it's beautiful, but it'slike, for some reason, I don't
want to see myself on camera.
It's like you had the sameaesthetic since you were a child
.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
What's different?
Speaker 3 (36:20):
today and I think, once I realized and it's so
crazy because I teach my clientshow to do these things and I'm
sitting here like I am havingthe hardest time executing-
trying to execute and implementfor myself, and it's so crazy,
like even with my own business.
I sat on that idea since 2018.
(36:40):
Wow, okay, I had the paperworkin the system, really, and I
stopped because the first thingI said was uh-uh, what if this
does not work?
What if I don't get clients?
What about money?
What about this?
That?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
and the third.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
When me and my husband reconnected in 2021, and
he was like you know, you're atherapist, have you ever thought
about having your own business?
I said it's funny you say that.
I said I've been sitting onthat idea since 2018.
I said my paperwork is sittingin the state system or whatever
it is.
And he's like so what are youdoing?
I say, well, nothing, right, Iwas like I'm not doing anything.
(37:20):
He was like so you don't wantto work for yourself, you don't
want to have your own?
I was like I do want to have myown.
He said so again what are youdoing?
I'm like this man.
You have not been in my lifebut a teaspoon of a minute and
you are like pushing me.
And when people start to push,I start becoming resistant and
(37:45):
it turns into irritability.
Okay, Because I'm like okay,stop pushing me.
Yeah, but I know you're pushingme for the right thing, right,
right, I'm just uncomfortable.
I like comfort.
Yes, I like behind the scenethings we all do.
When you tell me to step twoinches to the left out of this
comfort box, I'm sitting herelooking at you like, okay,
that's enough of being on ourside of the box, put me back in
(38:13):
Listen.
Put me back in the box and Isaid you know what, since you
are giving me the motivation,I'm going to do this.
Okay, I said I'm going to seehow this goes.
Yeah, mine was already doingwhat it wanted to do.
Okay, girl, go ahead and see ifyou want to.
I said, okay, he helped me withthe legal Zoom stuff and he got
me all of that.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
But it was a sense of pride when I saw on like August
16, 2021.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
I remember that Come on, come on.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Well, they were like your paperwork is in the system.
You are now the essence ofhealing LLC.
I'm like, wow, I cried, and I'mnot a crier.
I cried tears of joy because Ihad never in my wildest dreams
and he even said it.
We've been knowing each othersince we were 13.
He was like you couldn't havenever told me that you were
(38:59):
going to be a doctor.
Wow, he said, because I saw howyou acted in high school.
I was like, yeah, 20 did thebare minimum.
As long as I passed.
I'm good, smart kid.
I just didn't feel the need toapply myself, yeah.
But he was like I wouldn't havenever guessed this, wow.
And he was like this is amazing.
I'm like I'm scared, but I'mlike happy, yes.
And then I stopped using theword scared and started saying
(39:20):
nervous.
Okay, because I feel like thoseare two different emotions.
Like nervousness, I'll still doit.
I'm just nervous, right, butit's pushing me.
Yes, because I'm like thenerves are.
They're pushing me.
When I'm scared, I becomestagnant and I don't do anything
, okay, and so I startedchanging my vocabulary around
that and I'm like I've been inbusiness three years Come on and
(39:40):
my cousin she works with me andso me and her are doing the
thing.
But I was like I would neverguess that I would have my own
business and my mom and my dadloves to brag on that.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
I bet, because they should be peacock proud, as my
dad would say.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
I just never.
That was just never the vision.
I don't know if I really had aconcrete vision for myself,
because I just never thoughtabout things.
I was just the kid who was like, okay, I'll do something, if it
don't work, we're going to moveon to the next.
But I was very proud and Ithanked God every day because I
was like what about money.
I paid for my business out ofpocket.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Come on, people are like what?
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Because the money fell in my lap and I was just
like come on.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
I am a firm believer.
Whenever you begin to walk anddo what you're supposed to be
doing, what God has laid on yourheart to do, then he is going
to work everything out.
And look, our pastor says Godalways gives provision for his
vision.
And so you stepped out on thebusiness because it had been on
(40:49):
your heart for a very long time,and so it was obviously
something that God had for youto do, and you've been
successful in it.
And you know, I stepped out onfinally saying, ok, I'm going to
do this podcast.
And when everything lined upthe way that it was supposed to
line up, yeah, and it has been,dare I say, easy, yes, yes, I
(41:15):
struggled for so many years,fighting against it, fighting
against my own progress,fighting against my own blessing
that I was praying for Because,wait?
So the Bible also says that Godgives us witty ideas and a
vengeance, right, and so hegives us these things.
(41:35):
And then we're scared so thatwe don't do it Exactly, scared
so that we don't do it Exactly.
And then we get frustrated andirritated and upset when things
aren't going the way that wethink that they should be going
and we're not seeing the resultsthat we think we should see
when, if we just go back to dowhat he said to do in the first
(41:56):
place Exactly, look at howthings work out.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
And stop working on your own timing.
That's one of my biggest issues.
I am very much so an instantgratification type person.
I am very.
I need this to happen today.
If I lay out this plan in themorning, I need to see the fruit
of this plan Tonight, tonight.
(42:21):
And I think you know God toldme one day baby girl, that is
not how this works and I was thetype where I would pray for
things, but I was still doingstuff.
I wasn't the type to pray, sitback, relax, wait, let God do
his thing.
I'm like I think God need alittle assistance.
Let me, let me and he does notneed my help Listen and it's one
(42:45):
thing for faith without works.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
You know what I'm saying?
Faith without works is dead.
So you do have to have someaction, you know.
Put your faith to action.
However, there are other thingsthat we're just doing.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Busy work, yeah, and they have nothing to do with
Nothing, wasting time and energy, and you're just like let me
and my mother, my grandmother,everybody, if you're gonna pray
about it, you shouldn't worryabout it.
Yes, so they would tell me, ifyou're gonna worry, then you
need not pray, because thatmeans you're not trusting in
what he's capable of doing.
Yes, so I was like you guys areabsolutely right and so.
(43:18):
I had to learn that the hard way.
It came to me.
So now I pray and I'm like it'sfrom my mind I'm going to just
let that be.
But that took some time becauseI operate some time out of
anxiousness and that's when alot of things can fall apart,
Exactly Because I'm like OK, Ipray, now what are we doing?
(43:43):
I'm shaking, I'm walking aroundand I'm like no, you got to
learn how to sometimes just sit,yes, Be still and be quiet.
Exactly, my therapist told methat she said sometimes you just
need to sit and be quiet.
And I looked at her.
I said girl, for how long Isthere a time limit on this?
She was like try for a minute.
I.
(44:04):
She was like try it for aminute.
I tried it and I was like Idon't know.
This is a lot.
But you learn a lot aboutyourself when you quiet the
noise.
Yes, I didn't know how to quietthe noise and now that I do
know how to quiet the noise, Ihear better, I see things better
and I'm like okay, this is howI need to be moving.
Yeah, I was leaning a lot on myown understanding, which we
(44:26):
know we should not be doing.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
We should not, but in all our ways, acknowledge him
and he shall direct our path.
You know, that's what it says.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
And that's where I came to like.
You know what, if I'm going topray about it, I'm not going to
worry about this thing.
I was like, however the Lordsee fit to grow this business.
That's just how it's going tobe, and it's been doing well.
You know, it works for mebecause I do have a full-time
job.
So I don't take on too manyclients, okay, but it works.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
It works and I can still do what I love to do, but
at my own leisure, gotcha it wasdifferent when you're working
for a company and it's you gotto see these many clients.
You got to do this you got todo that.
It takes the passion awaybecause I felt like it was more
corporate goal driven than I.
Want you to really sit down andhelp this individual because
(45:16):
there was a number, a goal tiedto it.
Now, me doing my own thing,it's like I can really help the
people how I need to help thepeople.
Can be people focused and notprofit focused, exactly so
that's why I'm just like I lovemy business.
I do, I love it.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
I love it.
I love this for you, thank you.
So, as we wrap up theconversation, if you were to
give and I know you havestudents, so maybe it's a blast
that you give your students, butwhat advice would you give to
someone who is thinking aboutgoing into the psychology field
(45:56):
or the counseling field?
What advice would you give them?
Speaker 3 (46:01):
The first thing I would say is definitely have a
passion for it.
Do not make money the focus,because it's not always there
Right, and I want people to knowthat, because when we think of
therapy and counseling, we havea Hollywood sensationalized
opinion about therapy.
(46:22):
When I started out, I worked Itell people all the time I
worked at some janky places.
I didn't get my first paycheckor my last paycheck from one
company.
Oh honey.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Rough times oh, that's a whole mess.
Speaker 3 (46:34):
A whole hot, flaming mess.
Have a passion for it.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
And I say a passion, because you are sitting in front
of people who had enoughcourage to come in and say I'm
going to sit in front of astranger and share my
deep-seated issues with thisindividual in hopes that this
person will not judge me and canassist me in growing from this
place.
Yeah, I would also tell them toset boundaries.
(47:00):
This field takes a lot out ofyou, and I don't say that to
scare people, but it does.
You have to have boundaries.
They're for other people, butthey're for yourself too.
So, learning how to set healthyboundaries and just love what
you do, have a zeal to helppeople.
(47:20):
If you know that helping peopleis not what you like to do, I
do not advise you to be in thisprofession.
If you're coming here for themoney, I'd advise you to go
somewhere else To find somethingwhere I knew, probably from a
young age, that I wanted to helppeople.
(47:41):
I just did not know in whatcapacity that I wanted to help
people.
After having personalinteractions with people who
experienced mental health issues, I was like, yeah, I think this
is where I needed to be,because now I'm seeing more
black and brown people havingmental health issues and not
(48:01):
receiving the services that theyneed, and me myself having my
own struggles with anxiety andthen also having, you know, some
physical health challenges.
I don't know if you know I havemultiple sclerosis.
Well, they gave me.
They want to say that I did notknow that.
You know I have multiplesclerosis.
Well, they gave me.
They want to say that Got you.
I did not know that, I was notaware, and so that was a
challenge at school, because ithappened while I was in my
(48:22):
doctoral program.
Wow, and so losing the abilityto sometimes walk, hold a pen,
to talk.
When it first happened, Ithought I was having a stroke.
Wow, it was crazy.
I like fell down a flight ofstairs because I lost all
sensation on my white side, andso seeing people and I always
say people with, because it'speople is person centered
(48:45):
language.
You're not a schizophrenic,you're not depressed.
You are a person whoexperiences these things, and so
I want people to learn how tosee themselves outside of what
people like to label you.
You're still a person, yes, andso having my own challenges with
some things made me viewcounseling in a different way.
(49:05):
Because we treat people whostruggle with mental health
issues or physical disabilities.
We treat them different.
We marginalize them.
That is true, and at some pointI was one of those people.
Yeah, because I didn't knowwhat that's like.
I'm like, oh, they're different, like what's wrong with them?
It took for me to see my ownpersonal stuff family members to
(49:27):
be like, yeah, yeah, I need tohave a different outlook on
people.
So I would definitely encourageto please just have a passion
for it.
Okay, really, just love whatyou do, set boundaries and
continue to grow in this field.
Our field changes five to tenyears.
There's always some newinformation.
Okay, stay on top of what'shappening in this counseling
(49:50):
field so that you can betterserve your community.
Yes, and lastly, know thepeople that you serve community.
Yes, and lastly, know thepeople that you serve.
Nothing irks me more thanoutsiders coming into the
community and you do not knowthe people that you serve.
You don't know the neighborhoodthat you're in.
I always tell my students whenyou go into these people's
neighborhoods, you're a guest.
Yes, which means I need to knowwhat's in your neighborhood.
(50:12):
So if you come in and you'retelling me I have two kids, I
don't have food at home, I needto know where the nearest food
pantry is for you.
I need to know where your kidscan go and get their shots for
free.
I need to know where thenearest place to get coats if
it's cold outside.
Know the individuals thatyou're serving.
People come in and they're justlike oh, I'm just here, because
(50:35):
I'm here, I need the creditsfor class or I'm trying to
satisfy some loan.
They said if I come into theinner city, this is no, ok,
that's not enough.
I need you to know who you'reserving.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Yeah, yeah, because that's important to me it
absolutely is, because you cando people more of a disservice.
Yeah, when you don't take timeto learn.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:55):
So of a disservice when you don't take time to
learn?
Yeah, so just be open and justhave a willingness to learn from
your client.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
Okay, well, I thank you.
Thank you For taking time to.
I appreciate you.
I thank you for taking the timeto talk to me today and I just
want is there, do you have awebsite?
Speaker 3 (51:17):
I do so.
It's essenceofhealingllccom.
You can see all the information, the services that we provide,
bios of myself and my cousin.
You can get it all there.
I write blogs sometimes.
I've been lacking on that, butyeah.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Okay, so essenceofhealingllccom.
All right.
Well, thank you, Dr Abrams,once again, and thank you
everyone for listening.
We will catch you next time onPressed Into Purpose.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
I'm a hard person to be a friend Really, no way you
say that.
But I feel like I'm a hardfriend because I'm always trying
to like hold friendsaccountable.
Yes, and you know, I mean, andI would expect the same thing,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
You know whatever.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
But I just feel like that's why some of them have
gone for a season.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
Listen because everybody does not want to be
pushed.
Yes, everybody does not want toor hear the truth, listen
everybody does not want to bepushed.
Speaker 2 (52:17):
Everybody does not want to or hear the truth.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
Listen?
Everybody does not.
Today's episode is brought toyou by Destiny Film and Media.
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