Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Straw media. DTF stands for downto expletive go to bed with someone,
and we decided to completely flip thescript on what DPF stood for. Do
(00:24):
you find that as the holiday seasoncloses in you feel more pressure to find
romance? And maybe it's the movies, maybe it's the cold weather, maybe
it's the shorter days, or maybeit's just in our heads. Either way,
dating as a queer person can sometimesfeel like a mine field, and
add in a lack of inclusive languageon dating apps, the whole prospect can
(00:44):
just seem overwhelming, bumble, hinge, grind or her or tender. Though
some are more inclusive than others,they often fall short. But one app
is trying really hard to improve thedating experience for the LGBTQ plus community.
Almost twenty years ago, okay Cupidintroduced online dating to young people. It
was one of the first of itskind and also one of the first to
(01:06):
offer an inclusive space for members ofthe LGBTQ plus community. I'm Levi Chambers.
My pronouns are he him, his, and today on Pride we're talking
to Michael Kay, Associate director ofGlobal Communications at okay Cupid. We'll hear
about okay Cupid's history of inclusivity andwhat sets it apart from other dating apps,
(01:26):
How Michael came to his role atOkaycupid, and what it means to
work for a company that values andcelebrates queer people, the recent major expansion
of gender and identities on the app, and whether or not the moral capital
translates to business capital. Hey,I'm Michael K and this is Pride.
(01:51):
So hello, Michael. Thank youvery much for joining us today to talk
about this amazing company that you workfor. So first, could you go
ahead and talk a little bit aboutwhere you work and what kind of your
responsibilities aren't what you do from theday to day at that company? Absolutely,
(02:12):
First, thank you so much forhaving me here today. It's such
an honor to be here. SoI work at the dating app okay Cupid.
We've been around for nearly two decadesat this point, so we are
definitely an og in the dating game, and in my role, I'm really
focused on storytelling for our brand acrossmarkets all over the world, from North
(02:40):
America to the Middle East to SoutheastAsia. So it's really fun to get
to talk about dating and relationships andhow those really differ based on where you
live and who you are. OkayCupid first launch almost twenty years ago in
two thousand and four, and evenso it was a trailblazer for inclusivity.
(03:01):
It was started by four Harvard guysthat were not queer. They weren't even
looking for love. Instead, whatinterested them was more of a social experiment.
The question was, is there ascientific way to predict compatibility. What's
really different about okay Cupid from allthe other dating apps out there is that
(03:24):
we are the only dating app ofthe world that matches you on what matters
to you, and we do thatthrough thousands of in app matching questions.
And before anyone panics if you createan account on okay Cupid, we are
not going to put you to workand make you answer thousands of questions,
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but we do make you answer atleast fifteen, although most people go on
to answer dozens and dozens more.And those questions really cover everything you could
imagine within the dating relationships and suckrealm. But we also have questions that
relate to anything that's top of mindfor millennial and Gen Z daters, from
(04:09):
black lives matter to climate change toreproductive healthcare, marriage equality, and other
LGBTQ plus rights. And because ofthese questions, we are really able to
create a tailored experience for every singleperson who uses are at, whether you
(04:30):
are a bisexual person dating in NewYork City, or a straight user dating
in London, or a gay persondating in Mumbai. And we have localized
questions in over thirty countries around theworld, so you know, British daters
have things that are top of mindthat American daters might not care about.
(04:54):
And similarly, we also have awhole set of questions for LGBTQ plus people
because we recognize that what's top ofmind for straight people might not be top
of mind for the queer community.And even within our own community. I
mean I myself identify as gay,so within our own community, we have
questions for lesbians, questions for gaypeople, for bisexuals. So we really
(05:19):
use these questions to create an experiencethat feels really unique to every single person
on the app. This inclusivity thatyou've that you just kind of described,
and it goes beyond the LGBTQ pluscommunity to even people within certain geographic regions.
Why has inclusivity been a precept ofOkCupid really seemingly since the beginning,
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and why do you think it hastaken so many of the other dating apps
and some of them still really aren'tthat focused on that level of inclusivity.
Why is it taking them so longto follow suit or catch up? We're
a dating app. People are comingonto our platform to find love, to
find meaningful relationships, and if you'renot able to show up as your truest
(06:05):
self and express yourself however you possiblywant, then we're really not doing our
job, or you know, ifwe're not creating a space where you can
do that. We were the firstleading dating app to create a dedicated space
on profiles for LGBTQ plus people toshare their pronouns, and we actually recently
(06:26):
opened up that feature to our straightusers too, because we want to really
normalize the use of gender pronouns,and it also makes it easier for our
non binary and transgender users when they'reseeing straight people use pronouns as well.
We were also the first dating appto offer expanded gender and orientation options,
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so we now offer twenty two genderand twenty orientation options for our datas to
choose from, and last Pride monthso Prime Month twenty twenty one, we
actually expanded our identity options for ourLGBTQ plus data specifically, and some of
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those expanded identity options included terms likebare bottom switch versatile, Michael says.
Okay Cupid now offers over sixty identityoptions to choose from, with the option
to choose up to five at anytime. And with all that added specificity
and inclusivity, the folks at okayCupid saw an opportunity for education. So
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we spoke to non binary people,we spoke to transgender people, and they
were saying, Hey, it's greatthat you offer all these options, but
what's happening is I'm being matched withpeople who don't really understand what my identity
is. So we partnered with theHuman Rights Campaign and we started adding definitions
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to all the different identities we offerto our users. And when we think
about inclusivity, it's not just theLGBTQ plus community. So we have a
really great feature that I love onokayq bid. It's called profile badges,
and this allows us to let ourown datas signal to other people what's really
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important to them. So we've releaseda climate change Advocate badge over the years.
During the summer of twenty twenty,we actually launched the Black Lives Matter
profile badge so that our users couldsignal to other people that they were in
support of the BLM movement, andover eight and ten daters decided to add
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that badge to their profiles. Sowe're always using the product to make sure
that people feel really safe and comfortableon our platform, because if they're not
feeling like they can be themselves,like they're valued or heard or respected on
a platform where they're looking for love, they're never going to be able to
(09:00):
find, you know, those meaningfulconnections. So then in countries let's say
that have anti LGBTQ laws or thingslike that, do you have to navigate
the political scape and kind of workwithin the guardrails of the culture essentially to
still be able to provide a platformwhere people are safe, if that makes
sense. What's beneficial to us isthat we are always speaking to our daters.
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We're not just talking to people inour own backyard. We're speaking to
people all around the world. Wealso have teams of people all around the
world, whether that's people who workspecifically at Okaycupid or its agency partners that
we're leaning on. So there arecertain questions and features that might show up
for you if you're next to mein New York City, that won't show
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up for someone if they're let's say, in Turkey, and that's for their
own safety. That's for their ownprotection. It's also based on what they're
comfortable talking about. We have verydiff conversations, especially when it comes to
some of these more conservative markets,where you know, conversations around sexuality or
sex or identity is a little bitmore taboo than it here than it is
(10:13):
here in the United States. Sowe tailor our product to make sure that
you know, people are feeling safeand that they're able to express themselves as
much as they want to. Manycompanies, especially ones who are operating in
the same it's like you have tocontend with the political stances of lots of
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governments and societies and political groups asopposed to just what's here in the United
States. Okayqubid is still very openabout being a progressive company and trying to
be progressive even in those markets,and to kind of express those progressive values
even if you have to pull themback a little bit for the safety of
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users. Like you just described,do you think that helps or hurt the
company overall as a business that is, you know, a platform trying to
connect people. That's a great question, and I love that you talked about
it in terms of, you know, us catering to more progressive issues,
because we really don't see this,this being what we're doing here at okay
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Cupid, as something that should bepoliticized. You know, we're not trying
to align ourselves with different political partiesaround the world or political candidates. What
we are doing is we're listening toour gen Z and millennial daters. Those
are the biggest demographics on okay Cupid, and those daters are telling us that
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they are concerned about climate change,that they support the Black Lives Matter movement,
that they believe women should have theright to choose what to do with
their own bodies. So when ourdaters tell us that something is really important
to them to them and they doso by answering our InApp questions on all
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these topics, that allows us,or really encourages us to create marketing campaigns
and product features that resonate and mirrorthe issues that are top of mind for
those people. So in that way. It's it's almost like you are kind
of crowdsourcing the platform in some way, you know what I mean, in
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terms of asking these questions, gettingthe feedback from the daters, and then
using that to kind of guide whereyou steer the company. Absolutely. I
mean, when we started to seethat climate change was becoming a trending topic
on our platform, we thought,why don't we introduce a feature where it
goes right on your profile and youcan tell people that, yes, you
(12:50):
believe climate change is real, andyes you want your government to do something
about it. And you know,features like that have been really successful into
your points. It's literally from usjust listening to what people on our platform
are saying is important to them.I mean, to me, that gives
me a lot of hope to seeso many people express that black Lives Matter
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was important to them. So Iwould imagine that that is not only nice
to see in terms of things youcan do with the platform, fund badges
and stuff like that, but alsosomewhat promising about the future. You can
kind of get a window into thefuture, especially with these younger demographics.
That has to be somewhat uplifting foryou all. And I mean, it
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is to me just hearing that absolutely. I mean, as I mentioned,
I identify as a gay man.But the LGBTQI A community is not just
important to okaycubid employees. Where seeingthat it's really important to our daters as
well, and that is extremely upliftingand it makes me feel really happy to
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come into my office or go tomy living room and work for this company.
You know, every single day,nearly one hundred percent of datas on
our platform, it's actually ninety sevenpercent said that they care about LGBTQ plus
issues, and seven in ten datassay it's important that their match cares about
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this community as well. We alsorecently found that ninety seven percent of one
and a half million people on okaycubidsupport marriage equality, And honestly, how
can that not make you happy?It gives me a lot of hope for
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you know, the next generation thatis coming up right behind us. And
you know, it makes me feelreally good to be working at a brand
that is really excited to support allthese different communities. I mean, we're
supporting the very people who are onour platform, and we're supporting the very
people who are in our office.Absolutely it's like it's almost like you have
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this this company that's like doubling asan amazing polling system that finds out what's
important to people beyond you know,dating and finding love and things like that.
These, you know, things thatwill eventually shape the world in some
ways. So tell me a littlebit about your personal origin story as we
(15:26):
are recording today. I'm in NewYork City and I am actually a New
Yorker born and raised. My parentsare Brooklyn born and raised. I went
to college in New York. I'veworked in the city since graduating, so
very loyal to this city. Andafter graduation, I started getting right into
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public relations, which is what Ido now. I worked at different agencies
across pretty much every brand you probablyuse in your personal life. And in
spring of twenty nineteen, someone fromokay Cupid slid into my dms on LinkedIn
and asked if I wanted to havea chat. And over three years later,
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I am still here helping people findlove all around the world, and
it's just been such a wild ride. Is this what you saw yourself doing
being a part of this sort ofindustry? Actually, No, I have
like a very unique maybe experience withdating apps. I didn't come out of
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the closet till after graduation, soI was almost twenty three before I started
telling people I was gay. AndI turned to dating apps after graduation because
those were the only places where Icould safely and discreetly meet other gay men.
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And it was really overwhelming, andI was really terrified of meeting up
with them because this was, youknow, something that I tried to hide
about myself for my entire life atthat point. And I remember matching and
connecting and talking to so many differentguys, and when it came to the
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point where you know, they wantedto meet up, they wanted to be
a coffee or a drink or whateverit was, I would always check it
out and I got really scared.And there, you know, I was
about to delete my dating app,and I matched with one more guy and
I thought, okay, this willbe the final conversation. Then we're deleting
this and calling it a day.And he was the one person I decided
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to meet up with and go todinner with, and over eight years later,
we are still together. So congratulations, thank you. I wasn't on
dating apps for long, but Iam. I guess one of the best
success stories for dating app, soI'm here to say they really do work.
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But on that note, like Inever thought I'd find myself back at
a dating app in a different capacity. Your decision to join okaycubid and Dating
did its history of inclusion of i'mgonna say queer identities, but also just
lots of people, right, Diversity, it's it's history and diversity did that
way you in one direction or theother in terms of joining the company?
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Was it a factor you cared about? Absolutely? I mean before I joined,
when I was you know, duringthe interview process, when I was
doing all this research about okay cubid, and I found that they had really
been committed to the LGBTQ plus communityfor one for years and years. That
made me feel safe, and itmade me feel like when I walked through
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these doors, I could show upas my true self. I didn't have
to hide anything about me. Whatreally got me excited about this job was
not only seeing how inclusive of aproduct it really is, but when I
walked into the office, I sawpeople of all different backgrounds and it was
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actually the first time I saw anopenly queer person in the c suite and
that person is responsible for building ourproduct, and that meant a lot to
me because it was the first timewhere I felt visible, I felt seen,
and I saw someone like myself reflectedin leadership, and it made me
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think that could be me one day. How does that focus on diversity kind
of flow through everything that the companydoes. Besides our product features that were
releasing every year, we're also makingsure that with anything that we're putting out
from the company, that it's reflectiveof our values, of our mission,
and of the very people that areon our platform every single day. So
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in our our marketing campaigns, weare showing interracial couples, we are showing
queer couples, We're using models whoare people of color, We're using models
who identify as non binary, modelswho identify as transgender. Because it's really
important to us that if we're creatinga safe space for these people on our
(20:25):
app, that when they see acommercial from Okay Cupid or they see a
billboard from us, that they're alsoseeing themselves reflected there as well. And
sometimes people say that what we're doingis controversial, and we really don't understand
that. It's a hard idea towrap our minds around that showing a queer
couple is controversial or an interracial coupleas controversial. We don't get it,
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but we're definitely not going to stopdoing it. We're going to take a
quick break, but when we comeback, we'll hear about how okay Cupid
flip the script in their market campaignsand how their commitment to taking a stand
on important social issues has helped thebusiness grow. If you live in a
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major city, you probably noticed okayCupid's marketing campaign that started back in January
twenty eighteen. They were big,splashy, colorful billboards that said DTF,
except the f didn't mean what youthought it meant. Instead, it meant
down to fall head over heels,and it showed two women about to kiss,
one in the other's arms and holdinga red rose. It meant down
(21:37):
to fly the red eye, andit showed an interracial couple with sleep masks
decorated with each other's eyes. Itwas extremely provocative, and the idea behind
that campaign was honestly just to makea splash. We wanted to scream from
the rooftops that okay Cupid is here. But as the years went on and
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they thought about newmark getting campaigns.Michael says they wanted to tell people why
Okay Cupid was here. So whenwe were thinking about the every single Person
campaign, and it's right in thename, we wanted to let people know
that we are an app for themno matter how you identify, no matter
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what relationship you're looking for. Ifyou are a bookworm, we are for
you. If you want to beat a club at all hours of the
night, we are for you.If you are looking for marriage right now,
that's great. If you are interestedin an open relationship, that's awesome.
Do you we want you to dothat. So it was really all
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about celebrating the people and the kindsof couples that we're seeing form on our
app. So for those who arelistening and may not know because they,
I don't know, live in anAmish community, what does DTF mean?
So DTF stands for down to expletivego to bed with someone, and we
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decided to completely flip the script onwhat DTF stood for. So we had
images and billboards all over the countrythat just gave a new meeting to the
acronym. So some of those saiddown to fall head over heels, or
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down to fight about the president,or down to fire up the kiln,
you know, whatever you want todo. So really that was all about
reimagining what this overtly sexual term reallymeant and celebrating it in a brand new
way that resonated with people all aroundthe country. It falls right back into
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what you've talked about with pushing theenvelope a little bit with everything. If
you could kind of elaborate a littlebit on what it exactly means. This
like this perspective of reimagining what intimacymeans. What do you mean by that?
Yeah, so when you think aboutDTF, or when you thought about
eight years and years ago, itwas set in a way that really shamed
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people for being DTF. It sortof put people down and look down upon
people who wanted to sleep around.And we see no problem with that if
that is what you want to do. We always say that we are the
platform where you come to whether youare looking for someone for Saturday night or
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Saturday nights for the rest of yourlife. And we were tired of DTF
being this bad word, and wejust wanted to flip it on its head
and define it in a way thatjust made sense to different people that made
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them proud to b DTF and that'ssort of what that campaign was all about.
I love that, and I feellike that is something that you and
the company very much achieved. Sowhen you rolled out the more inclusive app
features that came earlier this year andthe questions, could you tell us a
(25:26):
little bit about how these inclusive featureseffect not only inclusivity within your platform and
your community, but also in determiningcompatibility among users who are looking for people.
If you haven't been an Okay Cupid, these questions power our algorithm and
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help us connect you with people thatwe feel you are most compatible with.
So when you're Honor app and yousee another user, you will actually see
a match percentage on their profile.That is a number that we have calculated
that tells you how compatible you arewith the other person based on three things.
What you said you're looking for aa partner, so their age,
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their identities, where they're from,what they say they are looking for an
a partner, and how you bothanswered the questions in a similar way.
So we want to make sure thatbecause you're also busy, that when we're
showing you different people on the app. We're showing you people that you actually
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have something in common with. Youknow, if you are someone who is
a workaholic, we want to matchyou with someone who is okay with that
and is not going to feel neglectedby you. If you're someone who is
really active and fitness is really importantto you, we have questions about that
too, about living a healthy lifestyle, and if you're a runner, you
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want to be to the other runnerslike. That's what our questions are all
about, and that's one of thebiggest purposes they serve. Another reason for
our questions is besides being a dealbreaker, they're a dealmaker. They're also
a conversation starter. So when peoplelook at the match percentage that they have
with someone, they can actually seeall the questions that they answered in common
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and also the questions that they answeredbut might have had different answers too.
So that'll help you realize that,oh, this person also loves horror movies.
That's going to tell me that.Okay, instead of using hey or
hi or are you up, I'mgoing to message them and ask them what's
your favorite horror movie? What arewe streaming this weekend? It just gives
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me a little bit something to gooff of, and that's really how we
think about our questions on the app. All of these things together create the
unique product and company that is okayCupid, and it makes me wonder about
the relationship between moral capital and businesscapital. Do they work together? And
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as okay Cupid's focus on inclusivity anddiversity help the company grow absolutely, I
think it really depends on who you'retargeting. If your target consumer is part
of gen Z, if they aremillennials, these are the most progressive generations
that we are seeing. They wantto purchase a product or service from a
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brand whose values really align with theirs. So for us, we've seen it
be a really huge benefit to forour company to be a values driven dating
app. We've seen that these differentfeatures, especially ones for the LGBT blessed
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community, these questions, these differentfeatures on the profile have really benefited our
business. When we look at thelast year, we've seen a big increase
in new users who identify as bisexual, as non binary, as transgender coming
to our app to look for love. And it's because of these features,
It's because of our campaigns, it'sbecause of everything that we're doing here that
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people from across identities really feel likethis is a space where they can come
to and be themselves. And ifthat's how they feel, our users are
only going to continue to grow.So yes, it's absolutely benefited okay Cupid
in the United States, but reallyall over the world. So as as
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someone who you work for the company, but you also have this perspective that
you've been successful with dating apps.What is something that you from like a
user perspective, and then also asan employee like to see from okay Cupid
in the future. I would saythat I would love for us to just
continue to customize and localize our appas best as possible. I think it's
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just really cool that someone in SanFrancisco can have a great experience on okay
Cupid, but it's very different fromthe experience of someone in Tel Aviv or
Mumbai or London. I think that'sawesome that we are making sure that no
matter where you are in the world, no matter what's important to you,
that when you come onto our app, it feels like this has been created
(30:40):
for you specifically. So I wouldjust like us to continue down that path,
which we absolutely are. What aboutfor someone who is not currently on
any dating apps for whatever reasons,what is something about okay Cupid do you
feel like is a reason they shouldjoin and try? I'm sorry to interrupt.
Is this for me? LEVI?This is our producer Frank And yes,
(31:06):
that question was for them. Ohmy god, you're calling him out.
I'm here for it. I'm noton any dating apps, Michael at
all. Right now, I don'tknow, like I've used them a bunch
before, but like, yeah,how do you convince someone like me who's
who hasn't had huge success with datingapps in the past, as a queer
(31:27):
person, as someone who identifies asnon binary, as someone who uses he
They pronouns like yeah, I guess, like, why should should I try
okay Cupid? See how it workswell for you? Specifically, I would
say we're definitely the most inclusive datingapp that you're ever gonna find. I
(31:48):
can say that with confidence. Butfor anybody, I would encourage you to
get okay Keupid to try, becauseyou're able to tell the app the perfect
person you're looking for. When youdownload okay Cuban and create an account,
you don't just give your name anda photo and call it a day.
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We really make you work for it, so you have to answer at least
fifteen questions before you get to getstarted. And what's nice about that is
if you see a question that doesn'tresonate to you, or it's not really
relevant or even makes you uncomfortable,you can skip it. There's not a
single question on the app that's mandatory. It is mandatory to answer fifteen of
(32:34):
them. And then there's all thesedifferent profile prompts that you can fill out,
so we definitely have more robust profilesthan any other dating app. And
right now, what we hear frompeople sometimes when they complain about dating is
that you know, they're tired ofswiping and going out with someone for coffee
or drinks or whatever the date isand finding out that they're not compatible.
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But on our platform, through ourquestions, we really make sure that before
you even meet up with this personor have a phone call with them or
a FaceTime, you know a tonabout them. You know what their interests
are, what they're passionate about,what values they have, and that's really
(33:21):
important and I think it makes datinga lot easier. And if you I'll
just share this with you all.But if you want to give okay keep
It a try, please email subscriptionsat okay keep it dot com and I
am more than happy to upgrade youraccount on me. Frank make it now
literally going to make a profile.Now you're gonna end up with a bunch
(33:43):
of people. I have nothing tolose. Yeah, I'm gonna go on
like thirty days and thirty days andthen I'll send you. I'll let you
know how it goes, Michael.So listeners, If you're on the fence
about online dating, if you're exhaustedby the endless swiping and profiles that tell
you nothing, give OkCupid to try. If Frank can do it, so
(34:07):
can you. And if you havesomething to say about dating online as a
queer person, we'd love to hearfrom you. Send us an email at
Pride at straw hutmedia dot com.Pride is a production of straw Hut Media.
If you like the show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whereveryou listen to podcasts. Then follow us
(34:30):
on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook,Twitter, and snapchat at Pride and tune
in weekly for more episodes. Besure to share this episode with your friends
and subscribe for more stories from amazingqueer people. If you'd like to connect
with me, you can follow meeverywhere at Levi Chambers. Pride is produced
by Me, Maggie Bowls, FrankDriscoll, Ryan Tillotson, and Brandon Marlowe.
(34:51):
Edited by Maggie Bowls and Daniel Ferrara