September 17, 2025 • 54 mins
Actor, writer, advocate, and nonprofit founder Sarah Ann Masse has built a career out of turning pain into power—on stage, on screen, and in community. From confronting Harvey Weinstein to launching Hire Survivors, Sarah has used her voice to create space for others, while continuing to grow her own artistic journey.
But that’s just the start. Sarah opens up about:🌈 Coming out later in life and finding her place in the queer community🎭 Building Hire Survivors Hollywood and now Broadway to reshape inclusion in entertainment🎶 Workshopping The Right Girl, a Diane Warren–scored musical inspired by survivors’ stories🚛 Writing and starring in Mother Trucker, with Amber Ruffin now attached📚 Developing her YA fantasy adaptation, The Chronicles of Carrigan
Sarah’s blend of resilience, humor, and creativity makes this conversation one you won’t forget.
But that’s just the start. Sarah opens up about:🌈 Coming out later in life and finding her place in the queer community🎭 Building Hire Survivors Hollywood and now Broadway to reshape inclusion in entertainment🎶 Workshopping The Right Girl, a Diane Warren–scored musical inspired by survivors’ stories🚛 Writing and starring in Mother Trucker, with Amber Ruffin now attached📚 Developing her YA fantasy adaptation, The Chronicles of Carrigan
Sarah’s blend of resilience, humor, and creativity makes this conversation one you won’t forget.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Strawt Media. I want to keep becoming better as time
goes on. Like I believe in constant growth and constant change,
and so if I believe in that for myself, I
have to be able to believe in that for other
people too. So I don't want allies to feel afraid
to step up and say things because they're worried that
they're going to say things wrong or miss something. I
want people to be trying, but I want them to
(00:24):
actually try right, do something really supportive rather than performative,
and then even if you do get it wrong, you
know there's space to learn, there's space to grow.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Hi. I'm Caleb McDaniel. Welcome back to Pride. Happy by
Visibility Week, Happy by Visibility Month, because really it's a
month long celebration. Happy September. We're in the Burr months,
which are the best ones obviously, So if you're celebrating
bur months, we made it. There's finally not a crisp
(01:00):
in the air, but there's a crisp in the air
in my soul. I've already been to Spirit Halloween multiple
times planning my Halloween costumes. So if that's something that
brings you joy, happy almost fall I'm trying to just
think of all the things that keep me sane. Right now,
happy premiere finale of the summer, I turn pretty for
(01:24):
all those who celebrate that it's now or it's already happened.
So we're gonna find out what happens there. So I'm
so excited to close that chapter. There's so much to celebrate, honestly,
in this this episode we talk a little bit about
that as well. I am on the show, joined by
(01:44):
my friend Sarah and Massey. We start out she's celebrating
a birthday, she's also celebrating by month, and we're really
just trying to find find the joy in the darkness.
She's an amazing guest. I'm so excited. She is an
award winning writer, actor, and activist whose career bridges comedy, drama,
(02:05):
and social impact. She's the writer behind Mother Trucker, the
new comedy set to star Amber Ruffin, and you might
have seen her as Emily Steele in This She Said movie,
which follows the New York Times investigation that exposed Harvey
Weinstein's history of abuse and sexual misconduct against women. She's
(02:26):
also the founder of Higher Survivors Hollywood, which is changing
the way our industry supports survivors. I'm so excited to
get into that segment of this conversation. But we also
we're covering so much. We're talking about, of course, her
recent trip to Disney, because I can't not mention Disney,
our shared love of Halloween, what it means to celebrate
(02:49):
by Visibility Month and navigate community and allyship during a
really challenging time for all of us. She talks about
building higher Survivors Hollywood into a full nonprofit, her work
on the Broadway bound musical The Right Girl, and of
course we talk about road trips and why they're so
meaningful to us, especially road trip movies, so stay tuned
(03:11):
for that. Of course, we're going to talk about Mother
Trucker and Amma Ruffin and the power of comedy. So
there's so much to cover. Please stick around. I'm so
excited for you to listen. Let's get into it. So
(03:35):
just have to ask how your birthday Disney trip was?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Was so fun. I went with friends, which I don't
do a lot like my husband and I have like
the annual past Magic Key and so we go a lot,
like more than most people go. But two of my
friends go once a year and they always go sort
of right around my birthday and we always miss each other.
So this year they were like, hey, are you going
for your birthday? Let's all go together. And it was
(04:01):
really fun. It was just like four of us riding
all the rids and it was so hot, and it
was like two of us never drink caffeine, and we
both had caffeine and it was just, you know, a
fun day.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
You had to have caffeine and Disney.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
When it's a long day like that. And one of
my friends had, just like the night before, flown back
from a two week trip to Costa Rica in which
she facilitates these healing ceremonies, and so it was such
a huge shift from the headspace she had been in
to be like kikye and mm hmmm folloween decorations and
(04:40):
characters walking around and she had a great time. She
loved it.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
That's good. I'm glad it went.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, did you get to see all the decorations and
you said you were going to go?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yes, I did. I'm going like a couple times this season,
so I don't. I was so pushy on like I
need to go and see Halloween and then I'm like,
I'm rarely going like at least six times season, as
if I'm not, like I'm going to Ugu boogie in
October like the Bash.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, so I was like, as if I won't see
it then, But I love. I love anytime it's Halloween.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, my favorite is the like Christmas winter holiday decorations.
M hm, really fun.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, I have a saw. Everyone always asked me if
Halloween or Christmas is better at Disney and I was like,
it's so hard because Halloween's my favorite season. Yeah, but
I think they go harder for Christmas obviously.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
So I always thought it was funny. I grew up
on the East Coast, so my family was like a
Disney World family. My grandpapa lived in Florida, so we
would go when we would visit him, And they do
a Halloween party after hours, and they do a Christmas
party after hours, and Disneyland doesn't do an after hours
(05:52):
like winter holiday party, which I always thought was such
a weird like missed money making opportunity, to be honest,
because I feel like a ton of people pople would
want to buy tickets for that. But they did Pride,
which Disney World does not do. So I'll take Pride
over a Christmas party for sure.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, I didn't know Disney World didn't do Pride.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, they've had ever. Even when I was a little kid,
they had these unofficial back then they were called gay Days,
and they were like fan organized, big, kind of like
how Dapper Days happen in Disneyland, you know, where everyone
gets dressed up. And my parents were like, oh, this
is so cool, like they loved it, but it was
never official. And so a few years ago, when Disneyland
(06:34):
announced that they were going to do an official Pride party,
I was like, wow, things have changed.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
I always go on unofficial Goth Day and I always
get mad because I didn't get the memo. I'm like,
I would have. I would have dressed up like I
was black eighty percent of the time, but never really
in Disney. So then I'm always mad because I've gone
I think on like three unofficial Goth Days.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
That's amaz saying where are you from? Where did you
grow up? I grew up in Arizona, okay, Because I
was thinking, like, having eighty percent of your closet being
black feels very much like me having grown up in
and near New York. But I'm not used to people
from the West Coast having a lot of black in
their wardrobe.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, honestly, I didn't wear I probably didn't wear a
lot of black growing up. Like this is more of
a me now versus Arizona, although in Arizona it almost
just doesn't matter because it's so hot that like, no
matter what, it's so hot.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, Arizona so beautiful, But my bad is it hot?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
It is? I Yeah, I'm going this weekend and I'm
not looking forward to it already. It is.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
So we're allowed to complain about annoying things even when
there's things going on in the world.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
That's the only way to stay seene right now on
this small things.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, at least some of the day. Because we try
to focus on everything horrific, you'll just shut down. And
I kind of think that's what they're for, all the
people who are doing all of the menace in the world,
that they'll just overwhelm all the good people so that
we can't do anything. So we have to try to
like work around their trips.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
True, we can't even choose a battle because there's too many.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Or we can have like a general meeting where we
decide to divide and conquer, Like, Okay, you two thousand
people take this issue, You two thousand people take that
an issue. Then we'll come back together, share a note,
and then figure out what we have to do next.
We need to be more.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Organized, we do.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
We need to communicate, we really do.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
But I mean, on a lighter note, it's Bisexual Month. Yes,
I know, it's for your birthday, and by.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Month, it's a good month to be bisexual, Rigo, that's
a good time of year.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Do you have any plans?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Oh, I'm just going to be really a bisexual every day,
you know, keep that up. That's been going well for me. No,
I want. I went away for a couple of days
for my actual birthday, and then I'm just really busy
this month. I'm actually speaking on a panel on September
nineteenth in West Hollywood about by visibility, So that'll be
really fun. Some really cool people rewrite the byline, which
(09:13):
is an a company organized it with the city of
West Hollywood, so it should be really fun. And I'm
just yeah, I mean, I only came out a couple
of years ago, so it's been nice for me to
be welcomed into community and like find where I can
connect with community because I'm you know, I'm busy and
I'm a little bit of a homebody, and everything with
(09:34):
COVID has meant that I've been even more like we're
talking to Dan Zoom because California is in a big
spike right now and I'm a compromise. So it's been
good for me to like force myself to actually connect
with people and have those community moments and just feel welcomed,
because I think that was a big thing for me
coming out later in life is I didn't know how
(09:56):
I would kind of find my place in the queer
community and if I would be welcomed. And obviously there's
a huge amount of virriration and biphobia at the best
of times, including in our community, so I kind of
had those anxieties going into it. It was funny because
I was never worried about coming out to my immediate family.
I knew they would be really supportive. They always have
(10:17):
been really supportive of the LGBTQI pless community. So my
bigger worry was like, oh, how is how is community
going to embrace me? How am I going to find
my place? And I don't know. It's just been nice
because I haven't had to change anything about myself. I
am still married to a straight guy, and like, you know,
that's not going to change. But that is what Memby
(10:39):
looks like, right Like, you can be in a head
of presenting relationship. You can like be whoever you are,
and that's just you know, part of the identity. So
it's been really nice to find that. And yeah, so
this month, I'm just going to continue to work my
ass off at my creative jobs and my nonprofit and
then go spend time with some folks who understand the
(10:59):
journy of you know, being queer. Right now, I think
right now too, it feels heavy being part of this community.
It feels kind of like beautiful but also scary because
I'm just watching things that I thought we had gotten
passed a long time ago start to be requestioned. You know,
the fact that we're having conversations about whether or not
(11:22):
marriage equality is going to be overturned by the Supreme Court.
And it's just like a very very strange time. And
it's interesting for me to have come out sort of
in this window of time because I still think I'd
benefit a huge amount from you know, straight passing privilege
and being seen that way for such a long time
(11:43):
that I've had to make sure that I'm being loud
enough about all of these issues, and I've had to
make sure that I'm showing up in solidarity for my
siblings in this community who don't have as much privilege
and safety as I do. And so that's also a
really I see that as like a really beautiful blessing
of being given an opportunity to step into that space
(12:05):
and needs the privilege that I do have to speak
out when people who are more targeted right now may
not be able to. So that's something I take really
seriously and like a responsibility I really want to shoulder
and in a way that feels helpful and authentic and
aligned with everything else that I care about and talk about.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Absolutely, I mean you saying all that, Like, I've been
thinking a lot about the buy community, especially because there's
so many communities obviously under attack always, but especially now
that we're trying to give platforms too and make sure
that we're helping anywhere we can. But then even with
the bisexual especially women, right now, I just get so
(12:45):
irritated and so now with by month, like we're trying
to figure out how to use our platforms to make
sure that we're speaking out against it because there's so
much within the community that's going on. Oh yeah, that
is so frustrating. So yeah, so I wanted to hear
if you had any thoughts on anything that you've been
seeing recently.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Obviously, our own government is, you know, targeting our community
in a really intense and terrifying way, especially I think
our trans siblings. And but then you look at the
broader world, like what's happening with JK Rowling and the
law that was passed in Scotland, and I also see
it within our own community, like there are sometimes conversations
(13:25):
that are happening where I feel like we're like separating
people off too much. I think it's important to acknowledge
that we all have different experiences, Like my experience is
never going to be the experience of a black trans woman.
I can't imagine what that is like. It's such a
vulnerable position to be in, and I'm not going to
pretend to know that. But I also think it's important
(13:47):
to like acknowledge those differences but not start separating off
into factions, like we have to come together, like talk
like we were joking about before, right, Like, we have
to be communicating with each other, and we have to
be supporting each other without erasing each other's experiences, without
downplaying the differences that we have, but using them as
(14:08):
more of like strength than something to faction us off.
So that's something I'm aware of too, and like when
I'm in spaces with other folks in the community, being
aware of not talking over people, not you know, only
coming at things from my perspective, like, there has to
be a lot of listening and a lot of like
sharing space and hearing what the pain points are for
(14:31):
each other so that we can actually step in and
show support when it's needed. Because this is a big
international fight that we have right now, and we have
to focus on the macro of it and how to
impact our you know, governments, whether they're failing or not
at the moment. But I think we also have to
make sure that we're showing up for each other in
the microways, within community, within our circles of our friends
(14:55):
and our colleagues, actually really coming together and supporting other
in the ways that we need. Yeah, I don't know
how you feel about that, Like, what's been your experience
recently since things have started getting worse in the broader world,
Like do you feel an impact within the community.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
I've been telling a lot of people have been asking me,
like how Pride months was, and I was like, to me, honestly,
it felt weird, which I think is fair with everything
going on, but it almost felt again like with the communication,
like I feel like we weren't communicating. Like I know
that there was a lot of things happening in events,
but I was like, I don't know. For me, I
(15:31):
just feel like everything feels off, and I feel like
we're not really all connecting, just even within the community,
and and I'm everyone's experiences is different and I'm only
like seeing a small part of it. But I was like,
I just feel like we all like need to be
talking more and linking up more and figuring stuff out. Yeah,
(15:54):
but I mean, we're all just doing the best with
the cards that we're being dealt right now.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
The other thing, right is like we're all just trying
to get out of bed every day at some level
and make sure we're safe when we're going to work
or diverse or so like there's so much just practical
trying to live and survive stuff that it is sometimes
a lot to make sure that we're showing up as
like our best selves. So yeah, some element of grace
too for the fact that people are going through a
(16:20):
lot right now. And then also I think I'm excited
to see more folks who are seemingly outside of our
community we never know. And I don't believe in forcing
people to out themselves ever, but seeing what are seemingly
like straight allies showing up more and talking about trans
rates and talking about all of these things that are
in danger, that excites me a lot. But I also
(16:42):
think there needs to be openness for allies to listen
to make sure that they're showing up in the ways
that are really supportive and are not performative. And I
think that's always a really nuanced conversation to have too.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Oh yeah, I mean, and we we get comments all
the time like why are you giving these people a platform?
And it's like it all we're all just we're all
trying to help, hopefully and we're doing it the best
way we can. And it's like again, it's like we're
trying to get the message across and hopefully it's working,
but you never really know.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So true, and I think I think because of like,
I don't know how much anyone listening right now knows
about me. But on top of like being queer, I'm
disabled and I'm a survivor, and I do a huge
amount of advocacy work, and I run a nonprofit called
Higher Survivors. And I think because I'm so publicly outspoken
about so many things, and I believe in holding people accountable,
(17:36):
I also think there's this misconception that I think that
if somebody does one thing wrong or makes one mistake,
or like has a history of holding a viewpoint that
is problematic, that they can't ever learn or come back
from that. I don't believe that either. Like I think
there are going to be imperfect allies who show up.
I think they're going to be imperfect people within our
community who come from the perspective they come from and
(17:57):
maybe say things that are harmful, and intention is less
important than impact. But I also think that if people
are called in or called out and actually hear that
and actually take accountability and dedicate themselves to learning and
educating themselves, it doesn't mean that people that they harm
ever have to forgive them. It doesn't mean that that
harm is undone, But I do think it means that
(18:17):
people have an opportunity to grow and to learn and
to actually step up in ways that are helpful rather
than harmful. So I think that's the thing too, is
like I have no patience for people causing harm, but
I also think like if we look at what it
is the nature of it and whether they're actually taking
responsibility and accountability for what they do and doing the work.
(18:37):
And I know doing the work is like so overused,
but I mean actually doing the work, not just saying
the things and like going to a few therapy sessions
or reading a few books on theory, but like actually
showing up in community doing harm reduction, doing harm repair.
Like we have an opportunity for people to grow. And
I hope I'm a better person five years from now
(18:58):
than I am right now. Like I think I'm doing
well and like trying to stay educated and trying to
stay act in and vocal. But I'm sure I'll look
back at things five years from aun and go, oh gosh,
what were you thinking. That's so uneducated, that's so you know,
needlessly harmful. That was a microaggression. And I say hope
that because I want to keep becoming better as time
(19:19):
goes on. Like, I believe in constant growth and constant change,
and so if I believe in that for myself, I
have to be able to believe in that for other
people too. So I don't want allies to feel afraid
to step up and say things because they're worried that
they're going to say things wrong or miss something. I
want people to be trying, but I want them to
actually try right, Like not just jump on a bandwagon
(19:41):
because they see other people doing it, but you know,
learn a little bit, talk to people in community, talk
to people are actually impacted, and then find out the
ways in which you can show up. You can use
your privilege and your platform to do something really supportive
rather than performative. And then even if you do get
it wrong, you know there's space to learn, there's space
to grow.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I mean, you said that you feel like you're not
doing enough, but I definitely always am seeing that you're
doing so many things. And you also said like, we
want to make sure everyone knows all the stuff you're
doing here, so yes, we want to talk about it.
So I don't even know where to start. Last time
we spoke, it was for that she said movie. Yeah,
(20:40):
and we talked about Higher Survivors, So if you want
to just kind of catch us up on that and
what it's been doing since then.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, so since we last spoke Higher Survivors, which grew
out of my own experience coming forward about being abused
by Harvey Weinstein. That was a very intense it means
to be very intense, really experience that nobody prepared me for.
And I am a pretty quick study and I'm pretty tough,
so I like learned quickly how to talk to the
(21:09):
press and advocate for myself and you know, fight for
what I needed and to be seen in the way
that I felt was appropriate. But I realized that as
I was doing this, like there were so many people
going through the same kind of thing, whether it was
on this really big world stage like I was, or
smaller ways in their own communities where they're speaking up
about their abuse, they're looking for support and they're not
(21:32):
always getting it, and they don't always know how to
talk about things in a way that feel safe to
them and how to find support in a way that
actually gives them what they need. So I decided to
start this sort of like educational initiative, and a lot
of our focus was on pushing back against retaliation, about
people who speak up about abuse or who have been abused,
(21:53):
about making sure that people have opportunities to be back
in the workforce because sexual violence, domestic violence talking a
massive economic and employment impact on survivors, and not everybody
knows that, not everybody talks about it. So that's how
it started. And in the years since, we've done so
much work. We've consulted in all these projects. We have
(22:13):
a survivor talent database, we have a free toolkit, and
we are now a fully fledged nonprofit. So we've been
a nonprofit for about a year and a half and
that means we can take donations and build out our
programming and it's been really amazing and we have some
really great partnerships and we're working on some great projects.
I'll talk about it here, we don't have it up
(22:34):
on our website yet. We've sort of soft launched a
new program that I'm really excited about, which is a
physical sponsorship program for individual creative projects. So we have
our first couple of applicants and approvals in some short films,
some features, and the only requirements are that you know,
the project takes our pledge is in alignment with our
mission and that somebody who is essential to the project
(22:58):
identifies as a survivor and 're the matis aerial sort
of fits with our mission statement. And it's really exciting
because filmmakers, theater makers, art makers can get donations for
their project to run nonprofit rather than doing a more
traditional like investor model, And we're able to help projects
launch and get off the ground that are telling important
stories and supporting important artists. So I'm super excited about that.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Oh my god, Yeah, that's so fun. So that's just
now starting.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Just now we sort of did it came out. What
I like about it most is it came out of
community need. So we're really big on being responsive to
our community. We talk about our toolkit being a living document,
always growing, always changing, always improving with community and input
and involvement. And we consult with filmmakers a lot. It's
(23:46):
like very comprehensive, will do sensitivity reads, we help with
casting crewing, we help create marketing plans, impact campaigns, all
this stuff. And so through that we've built a lot
of relationship relationships with especially independent film and all of
a sudden, over like a two month period, a bunch
of our past filmmakers, our current filmmakers came to us
and said, do do fiscal sponsorship or do you ever
(24:08):
do fiscal sponsorship? And so I brought it to the
board and we had conversations about it, and we talked
to an accountant, we talked to a lawyer, and we
realized it was something we could do and it was
something that would be really beneficial to the nonprofit and
also to our community. So that's really cool. I like
that it's been responsive like that, so that those first
filmmakers who came to us are the ones that we've
sent the application to and that we've you know, gone
(24:30):
through the approval process with. And you know, we were
kind of hoping maybe we could do an announcement in
the trades, but I think we might do a launch
just ourselves online and we're talking about it now with you,
so hopefully people will learn about it and we'll get
it up on our website and then we want we
want the trade coverage just because we want more artists
to know that this is available to them and to
be able to benefit from this. So I think it's
(24:51):
going to be a really good program.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
That sounds so exciting, and I like, I've you know,
talked to young filmmakers and heard the struggles of you
go through to go through that process. So that's so
nice that they have those resources.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, and we're also I think probably since last time
I talked to you, we've launched. So we have two
divisions now. The nonprofit is Higher Survivors and we have
High Survivors Hollywood, which you know services film, TV, streaming,
short form, and then hire Survivors Broadway for live theater.
So we've done our first couple of consulting projects on that.
We're building out a toolkit for that. And the fiscal
(25:27):
sponsorship program is also for theater projects.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
You've been doing theater too, right, Yes?
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yes, I was like I got a message I remember
speaking of all the Weinstein stuff. One of my very
talented fellow Einstein survivors and friends, Louise atte Geitz, who
is herself has a background as an actor and a writer.
She had an idea back in I know, maybe twenty
eighteen to write a musical about the survivor experience, and
(25:56):
it wasn't going to be specifically about Harvey. It's sort
of about, you know, an amalgamation of a lot of
these different stories. And I remember being with her at
like the Rap Power Women's Summit in La I think
in twenty eighteen, and she was telling me all about it,
and Diane Warren was there and we were talking about like,
(26:18):
I could you imagine if Diane Warren could do the
music for the for the musical, and we just like
went up to her and Louisa pitched it and Diane
was like, yeah, I like the idea, care take my information.
And Louisette and our other producer, Howard Kagan, who produced
like the Pip and Revival and Great Comment and all
(26:38):
that stuff, they brought her on. So I've been a
part of this musical called The Right Girl for a
long time now. Initially I was just supportive, and then
Louisette told us that the way they were going to
write the script is that they wanted to gather a
bunch of survivors together to just talk about our experience.
It's not just the experience of abuse, but what it
(26:58):
was like coming forward, what it was like for us after.
And she did a session in New York and a
session in La and there were probably about twenty five
of us, and we are all stakeholders in the project.
We're all story contributors. We have contracts that you know,
the profit share contract, which I thought was great. Louisette
and the whole team are really committed to the whole
higher Survivor's ethos, and they showed that right away.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And then they.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Invited me to come to like a table read that
they were doing in New York, the first table read,
and they had recorded some demos and it was a
whole bunch of these incredible Broadway actors, and they asked
me if I would read all the Survivor monologues and
I said, yeah, absolutely, And so then I told the
producer and the director, you know, I don't know if
(27:40):
you know this, but I my background is in musical theater,
so if you're ever auditioning, I'd love to throw my
hat in the ring. And like a year later, not
even a few months later, I got a call from
the producer and he said, hey, do you have a
singing reel? I do, and I sent it over and
he went, okay, you're in. I said, what do you mean?
He said, I like it. The direct I feel likes it.
(28:00):
Diane like Lee are great, You're in the cast. So
I have spent since twenty twenty workshopping this musical in
all different roles. We did like a three day workshop
in la and Diane Warrens studio. It was right before lockdown.
It was February of twenty twenty. It was kind of
the last thing I did before I really locked down.
And then that summer we did a Zoom workshop where
(28:23):
we met for two weeks and the producer sent us
like backdrops and microphones and lights, and we rehearsed on
Zoom and we had to record our singing parts separately
and then lip sync them on camera and then the
sound mix. It was really fascinating, and as somebody who
has a lot of experience in film and doing like
audiobook recording, I was totally comfortable, and I was like
(28:45):
having side chats with people teaching them how to set
up their tech. It was just it was chaotic and
super fun. And we were the only Equity actors working
in the entire country for that two week period because
Live Theater was shut down, but Equity agreed to let
us do this contract over Zoom and it was great.
And then I spent last fall in Winter in New
York workshopping this musical in person, and I usually do
(29:10):
sort of like the survivor track, so I had one
specific survivor who's in the ensemble that I'd played for years.
And the ensemble work in this show is beautiful because
it heavily is reliant on female and gender expansive actors
in the ensemble in the course, but we actually have
fully fleshed out characters with names and story arcs and
(29:32):
monologues and solo lines, and so it's been really fulfilling.
But during one of the workshops, they lost an actor
that they thought they were going to have for one
of the principal roles and asked me to step in
before rehearsals started. So I got to say one of
the principal roles and it was cool because it was
the journalist character, and I played one of the New
York Times journalists in she said, I played Emily Steele,
(29:54):
and then so I was like, oh, I actually know,
like I know how to get inside the head of
this character. I've done this before. So it was super fun.
And I'm just obsessed with the show and dying for
it to get to Broadway already because people are going
to love it. It is an amalgamation. It is not
about Harvey. It is about sort of the culture of abusive,
(30:16):
powerful men working within the entertainment industry. And it's built
on stories of people who dealt with Weinstein and Bill
O'Reilly and Russell Simmons and all sorts of people. And
it's really surreal, especially the first few times I did it,
because there are words that I said in those early
meetings that are in the script, and so every once
(30:37):
in a while, like my ear will tune into it
and it really impacts me, but not in like a
traumatizing way, but in a really powerful way. And it
seems to keep bligning with things that were happening, Like
we started the workshops and the readings the week that
the Weinstein trial started in New York and twenty twenty,
and we kept having these moments where like these big
things were happening for the show while big things were
(31:00):
happening in the case, and it just felt really, really
transformative and really healing, very similar to how she said
felt for me, because you know, I did lose my
career when I came forward, My acting career completely dried up,
and to be completely candid and honest, like I'm still
recovering from that. And I say that not so people
(31:20):
feel sorry for me, but so people understand the long
term impact of this. But when I got cast in,
she said, like, I went from being somebody who was
erased and silenced by Harvey and what he did to
me to somebody who got to literally have the camera
on me. And not because I'm a survivor, but because
I was seen for my talent, for my skill, for
(31:43):
the thing I love doing. I got to walk in
there and play a journalist. So like the power dynamic
was totally different. I wasn't playing a survivor. I was
playing someone with more like agency in the story, and
I got to go into the New York Times building
and be really supported by that team. Maria Schrader literally
like started cheering for me this and I walked on
set and telling me how excited she was. Now everybody
(32:04):
watched my tape and like, you know, and it's the
same energy in that room with the right girl. Everybody
who's in that room is really celebrated for being there.
Everybody's there because their talents are really special. But there's
also a lot of people there who also have lived
experience and who bring that nuance and that depth of
performance to this, and I think it is something that
(32:24):
is really healing. It's also funny. It's also like a big,
bold musical with beautiful numbers and fun dance sequences. And
I think people like, how can you write a fun,
splashy Broadway musical about this? But there's lots of Broadway
musicals that are about really traumatic, difficult things, and they're
really successful and they're really impactful. And so I think
(32:46):
I come from a comedy background too. I've done a
lot of sketch comedy, and I always think if you
can make people laugh, you can knock their walls down
a little bit, and then you can get the message
through in a way that doesn't feel heavy handed and
doesn't feel like the people are defensive taking it in.
It's just really important to have a story with a
message but also entertain people. It like does not have
(33:06):
to be mutually exclusive. So I feel really excited to
get to be part of so many projects that do
both of those things.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Anyone that wants that asks why something on Broadway is
so traumatic, like that like that has so much power,
Like have they watched anything on Broadway, because oh, everything
is really deep and really.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Sad uh Parade, Rag Time Lay Miss, Like it's even
want pathos and depth to your art right and your entertainment.
Like also there's room for stuff that No. I was
gonna say, there's room for stuff that doesn't have that
depth or pathos, but I don't even think that's true.
I was going to talk about I saw two shows
(33:46):
this last season that I was completely obsessed with, which
is maybe Happy Ending and Death Becomes Her and maybe
by the ending I describe it to people when they
asked me, it's like it's like an hour and a
half long live action musical version the Pixar movie, Like
it is so beautiful and heart stirring and really makes
(34:07):
you think about like humanity and death and meaning. But
it's a beautiful, fun musical at the same time. And
I was gonna say, Death Becomes Her is so campy
and so big and so splashy, and like the on
stage illusions are incredible, But that show is also about
like platonic female love and how society sets up women
(34:29):
to compete with each other and mortality and the meaning
of life. So like even ostensibly this like silly, campy
show has all this depth to it. And I think
that's how we know musical theater as a medium is
so successful, is that people have this sense of like, oh,
it's light and it's fun, and it's you know, maybe
even trivial. It's not like you're getting these messages that
(34:53):
sit in your bones and then stick in your head
forever because you can't forget the songs, you know what
I mean. Like, I think it's a really powerful medium
of art.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
And I just feel like it depends on how you
like describe it initially and how what people take away,
because you're like I can describe anything and really take
it to heart or really like sell it as a
fun little comedy, and you like I can do that
with literally anything.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Samea.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, So it's it's crazy. You're like, you know what
Wicked's really about? Like, yes, that's real true.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
And that's something I learned as a writer and as
somebody who runs this nonprofit is I'm never being dishonest
when I meet with people, but I'm very good I
think at quickly determining like what are people going to
respond to? What is something that is going to excite
them or make them feel ready to invest in something
or take a chance on something. And I can always
(35:45):
find that way in not because I'm making things stup,
because things that are good, things that are like valuable,
are nuanced and have layers and have all sorts of
different positive benefits, And it just about finding how to
connect with each person about what might matter to them
about it.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
So we have to talk about your most recent project
that's you know, taking over right now, which is Mother Trucker.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yep Trucker.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yes, So please tell me everything about that how you
said it started years ago.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
So I have a friend named Christina Carano, who is
just the loveliest person in the world, and she's like,
I have this idea and I feel like you're the
right person to make it happen and write it, but
I don't want to, you know, put anything on. And
I was like, no, tell me, And she started telling
me about how she had taken this road trip from
Chicago to LA when she was in college and she
(37:00):
drove across country with one of her friends and this
female truck driver. And I already was like, I'm super
I love this. Whatever this is, I'm really interested. And
the film now is very different It is about two
women on a road trip with a female truck driver,
but the women are in their thirties. There you know,
there's a search for a birth mom. Like it's a
(37:21):
whole thing. But it was enough to make me feel
really excited about exploring these women and like why are
they together? What are they like hoping to find? What
are they exploring? And this mother trucker came out of it.
And it's really funny. It's like a big, bold comedy.
It's a road trip movie, but it also is incredibly heartfelt,
(37:43):
Like it is about chosen family. It's about like questions
about motherhood and womanhood and what to do with your
life when you're in your thirties and in your forties
or in your fifties, and like what that means for
you being a woman in a very male dominated world.
I people are probably gathering at this point that like,
for me, if I'm going to work on a project
(38:05):
or if I'm going to write a project, it very
much has to come from a lens that makes sense
to me. So I have a very feminist lens, of
very inclusive lens. There's a bisexual character in it, and
what's hilarious to me is. I wrote this character years
before I came out, and it was always a little
bit of an avatar of me, Like there are qualities
in this character that I felt I really related to.
(38:26):
And when I realized that I was queer, when I
realized I was by I looked back at my writing
and I was like, oh, I kept writing bisexual characters
who were avatars for me. I should have known, like
my subconscious clearly knew before I did. But it's just great.
It's such a funny movie, and you know, I've had
some great producers on it for the past couple of years.
(38:48):
Then one really lovely thing about it is every single
person who's been set the script over the years, even
if the company has passed, even if they didn't end
up getting involved, they've all loved the script, like they've
really connected with it, laughed, cried, giving me the most
incredible feedback. So it was definitely one of those projects
where it's like it's okay that it's taking a while.
COVID happened, like things can take time, but I am
(39:10):
sticking with this and my producers felt the same way,
which I felt very blessed by. And a while ago,
an idea came up to approached Amber Refin for the
role of Ali, which is the bisexual character that I wrote,
and I was like, oh my god, Yes, she'd be
so perfect for this role. I'm kind of nervous because
she's an incredible comedy writer, an incredible comedian, like she's
(39:32):
going to read my script? Or is she going to think?
And my producer Tim got it to her and I
found out subsequently that she really doesn't read a lot
of scripts. She really has to feel like she trusts
the person sending it to her and she has the time,
but she's like, yeah, I'm going to read this. And
she was just an immediate yes. She loved the character
(39:53):
of Ali, she loved the script. She was like, what
can I do? I want to be in it? Can
I produce?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Like?
Speaker 1 (39:59):
How can I how can I get involved? So a
couple of days ago we announced Amber's attachment to the
project and we're out to directors now and things are
starting to move along and it's really exciting and I'm
in it too. I play a really fun sort of
recurring character it keeps popping up throughout the road trip
called Karen, and Hey, she's great. She's such an odd,
(40:21):
odd character, and I think it's gonna be really fun.
It'll be like you know my Annie Mamlow moment in Bridesmaids.
For sure, Well you know we're gonna also it has
like if we can get the budget that we're aiming for,
which I think we will. The script has so many
good needle drops in it. And I know, I don't
know anyone who's a writer might hear this, Go what
do you You can't write music into your script. It's
(40:42):
so like it's looked down on. It's not good. You
put people in the mind that it's gonna be so expensive,
And to me, I'm just like, nope. I music helps
to tell a story, and even if it ends up
not being this exact song, I'm helping people understand like
the mood of that moment or the mindset of that
character by indicating what kind of a musical moment this is.
(41:04):
So I just love it. It brings together so many
things that I love. And it takes place on the
road obviously, but it like starts in the Chicagoland area
and it ends up in LA and it's it's good.
It's really juicy, it's really funny and I'm just like
so thrilled. I mean when the other thing too, like
my ego felt really good. When I assumed, am we're
(41:27):
coming on she'd want to do a joke's polish or like,
she was just like, nope, I'm good. There's one thing
she wanted me to take out, which I did, and
it was one thing I had put in that I
didn't love but felt like it was like sort of
expected to be there. So she actually gave me permission
to improve the script in a way that felt more
(41:47):
aligned with the overall tone of it. So I feel
like the version we have now is perfect in terms
of like the tone and what we're trying to do.
And she's just so funny, and she's also so warm.
She has this like sweetness to her, but she's incredibly
sharp and incredibly incisive and just like direct in what
she says. And that's the character of Ali. Ali is
(42:10):
really comfortable in her own skin. She's really outspoken, but
you know she has to have this like kind core
in order for it to sort of work, and that's
that's Amber. So I think she's gonna make this role
just incredibly hilarious and beautiful, and it's gonna be good.
It's gonna be really good.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
I'm sad that I can't watch it right now, like
that it's.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Not plenty of scripts. You can imagine your money.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah please, because honestly, I love road trips, like those
are the best storylines. I don't know why, but they are.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I don't know how other cultures feel about road trips,
but I feel like there's something very American about the
road trip. Like we have such a big country, and
I know there's this like running criticism of like Americans
never get out of their own country, they don't travel there,
so close minded. But I always try to remind people,
like I have family from Europe, my husband said, of the
families from Europe. If you take like rush out, Europe
(43:09):
is smaller than the United States basically, and it's like
you can get it flight for fifty pounds to fly
from London to Adiza. Right, It's not the same here,
Like for Americans to travel to Europe, it's really expensive
and not everybody has that kind of money. We don't
have socialized medicine here, you know, like we we are
dealing with different things. So I think if people can
(43:29):
get out and even travel in the United States and
see other communities and other cultures. That's really beautiful. So
I've always loved road trips. I took them as a
kid with my family. I have driven across the country
with my husband now like six times in the nine
and a half years we've lived in LA So clearly
I have a really soft spot in my heart for
(43:50):
road trips and road trip movies, like even the Vacation movie.
You know, there's just like so much. I think it's
just like baked into our DNA as Americans, and there
haven't been enough road trip movies recently. I feel like
it's time for more road trip movies.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I agree, I think they always I don't know what, Yeah,
I don't know what it is. If it is just
like the nostalgia of me loving road trips, or like
putting these characters in such a small, enclosed space and
making them figure it out, and also like you kind
of go crazy on road trips.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Having three adult women in a cab of the big
Grig is you know, it sets some stuff up. And
also obviously in the movie there's a lot of like
high drinks and surprises. But I feel like that's what
it is to be on a road trip, like you
don't know what's coming around the next corner. You don't
know if you're gonna see, like what you're gonna see
on the side of the road, who you're gonna find,
what's gonna go wrong? How many times your car is
(44:41):
gonna break down? Like it is kind of a leap
of faith every time you get in the car to
take a road trip.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, I'm not even a big like planner when it
comes to trips sometimes, Like I kind of like to
go with the folk. I like to have a set
like idea, but I'm not like, oh, we have to
stick this is where we're gonna have the bathroom breaks
at Like I just like to just kind of see.
And that's what i'man with a road trip, Like you
can't plan anything.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Oh do you feel like in your regular life like
your are you very kind of organized and non schedule
or do you feel like you have that kind of
like I know things can change. That's school it's I
can be flexible, Like what's your kind because I wonder
if like your road trip attitude is different from like
your day to day attitude.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
I feel like with my job, I have to be
flexible like, I'd love to be able to just be
like from this hour to this hour, I'm doing this
and this and this, but like it's just not that's
not the reality I live in. Like things pop up constantly,
so I'm kind of just used to Like I think
in my ideal world, I would be very like time time, time,
(45:42):
everything out, but I can't. I just kind of have
to go with the flow most days.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Very flexible with me. I will attest to that. So
you're good at it, Alloway.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Well, is there anything else we want to cover?
Speaker 1 (45:55):
No, I could try, I could just I just feel
I kind of forgot we were recording this. It's like, oh,
just a bunch of talk to Caitlin.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
I know, I know, I wanted to just catch up.
I was like, there's so much more I feel like
we could talk about. But then I'm also like, we
need to talk about some other stuff, which I also
want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
That's the best kind of podcast to me, I've been
I've been watching and listening to Good Hang with Amy Poehler.
Really is just like fun conversations amongst friends, and to me,
it's really exciting because it's all these like comedy people
and talking about writing and talking about making a show.
My dream job is to be on a TV show,
(46:32):
hopefully when I've created like that would be a nice bonus.
But I feel like a TV show is the best
of both worlds of theater and film and also for stability.
My god, I have no stability doing what I do
in my life. It's like the stability of knowing, like
I have a show and it's run and it's been
picked up for four seasons and I'm going to have
a steady paycheck, and here are the people I work with,
(46:53):
And God, there's something about that that sounds like such
a dream. So hearing all these people talk about what
it was like to be on a show, what it
was like to create a show, it's like very inspiring
to me. But I feel like that's what has been
happening here. We've just been having like a fun conversation
where we talk about things that we're interested in. And
I love that. And I feel that when I watch
your podcast, like when I watch clips of it and
I watch episodes, people clearly just love talking to you,
(47:15):
and I think you're doing such a good job.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
I just love talking to people.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
That's my problem, Like I just had someone another guest,
and we talked about like cats for like twenty minutes.
I was like, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Do you have a cat?
Speaker 2 (47:28):
I do have a cat, yes, And he's a giant baby.
I think he's part what is the giant cat? I
always forget?
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Oh, yeah, I know the one you're talking about, but
I don't know the name. It has almost like the
point ears and lots of her.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
I think he's part that because he's like twenty pounds.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
That's a like cat. That is a cat.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
He's huge.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
I'm definitely allergic to cats, but I think they're adorable.
I know, I know. It's so sad dogs too. It's
just a real bummer. Oh one day, and I have stability,
meaning I have like one place that I typically live
most of the year, which is not me most of
the time. I want to have a pet pig. I
(48:10):
love pigs so much and they're so smart. And I've went,
I've gone and hung out with picks. And who has pigs.
Diane Warren has pigs, and a friend has her best
friend has pigs. And she gave all this money to
a pig sanctuary that's outside of LA And I went
and visited it once, and I'm not allergic to pigs.
Like I can spend hours like hanging out with pigs,
(48:33):
cuddling pigs. I don't get allergics. I'm like, all right,
this is it. If I'm ever gonna have a pet,
it's going to be a pig. But it needs to,
like I need to be in a place where it
has space. I'm not gonna have a pig in an apartment.
That's not fair. But one day, one day, your cat
and my pig can hang out. It'll be great.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
I love all those videos where people bring their pig
to the drive through. Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
It's the best. Yeah, I don't know what else do
we talk about? Is anything else that we talk about?
Still trying to get my why a fantasy series made.
I adapted this really great series called The Chronicles of Kerrigan,
which is like like three million downloads or something, and
it's independently published and it's a great series. I narrate
the audio books. That's how I got involved, and I
(49:14):
developed it into a pilot. It's so good and we
just have to find the right home for it. And like,
especially now, I feel like people need an alternative to
Harry Potter. I would just say, don't watch the new
Harry Potter, Like that's one thing I want to say,
don't watch it, just don't. Let's not give more money
to that. I understand it might be meaningful to you
(49:34):
from your past. You can hold on to that. Don't
give more money to JK. Rowling. But yeah, this is
good and it has a female lead and it takes
place at a boarding school in England. But it's not
Harry Potter and it's not like Harry Potter. It's just
probably will appeal to people who like it. So I'm
still trying to do that and trying to keep this
nonprofit afloat, so if anybody is listening and likes what
(49:57):
we're talking about and likes what we're trying to do
to support survivors and not just support survivors, like the
beautiful thing about the work, and I didn't mention this before,
is when we go in and consult and we go
and have a presence on set, we're really creating safety
and equity for everybody who's working on a project. Survivors
are obviously benefited by the fact that we're advocating for
(50:18):
their inclusion and for their being able to audition and
making sure that if sensitive materials being shot, there's like
support on set. But we will create like wellness spaces,
and crew will come and just like grab a stress ball,
have some candy, chat, let off a little steam, and
they're like two minute break and then go back to
set and everybody feels better. And because survivors are such
(50:39):
a diverse group of people and just so multiply marginalized,
when we improve the presence of survivors in the workplace,
we're also improving the presence of you know, queer folks
and you know, minoritized folks and disabled folks, and so
it's really it's really intersectional, comprehensive work. And so we
need money, need donations, We need supporters and sponsors, we partners.
(51:01):
We want more filmmakers to partner with us and studios
to partner with us. So I'll definitely give that shout
out because that's that's work. That's really hard work, but
really fulfilling. And I often have a hard time self
promoting in terms of like, oh, I'm an actor hireman
but whatever, But I will promote this until I'm blowing
into the face, because it's not about me, you know
(51:22):
what I mean, Like, it's about fixing or helping to
fix this like deeply entrenched problem that we have with
sexualized violence, gender based violence, domestic violence. And it's not
punitive work, like it's really creative work. It really encompasses
like the creative, collaborative spirit of making art, and we
just do that in a way that feels like it
(51:43):
can embrace people who have been pushed out and ostracized.
And I think, especially in the face of like clamping
down onto EI efforts, it's really important to support nonprofit
work that's still doing this, that's still pushing for this.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, it deserves its own shout out.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Sure, thanks Hirish rivers dot org, backslash, donate, support us,
read about it, let us know how we can help
you too.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
I mean, yeah, I think that covers everything we need
to talk about.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
I think so, from Disney to cats to the ills
of the world, Like we've covered it all.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Yeah, this is our day to day though, is jumping It.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
Really is, Like I'm not kidding, this is just how
my brain works. When I talk to anybody about anything.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Me too, me too, I'll be like, oh, yeah, that
reminded me of this. Has no correlation, but we're just
doing our best.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Is there anything you're really excited about right now, like
anything in your life or things that you're like working
on it you feel excited about?
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Hm, I don't know. I did just get an email
that I might get to talk to Julia Roberts, which
is exciting exciting. I do love her. Yeah, so I'm
excited about that. We're kind of taking new direction even
with this this whole podcast show, and we're trying to
(53:03):
make it just more available for people. So we're always
trying to because obviously online everything's just always changing.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
So oh my gosh, it really is. I'm working on
a project I can't talk about yet, but it's exciting
and it's like I think I emailed you and told
you what it is, so you you know what I'm
working on. But watch this space, so I will. I'll
be paying I'll be paying attention to a lot of
things that you're working on and seeing how you're making
it work as I developed this idea mm hmmm, mm hmmm.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
But yeah, there's there's always something come on. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
I love the work you do and I think it's
just such like a lovely bright light in the world,
and I always love getting to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Thank you. I think the same about you. Anytime you
messaged me, I'm like, oh god, my friend, my friend
is here.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
Th Cam welcome. Well, this is lovely.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Thank you all so much for listening. Be sure to
follow Sarah check out everything that she's doing. She's doing
some amazing work for Hollywood, so please follow along, stay
up to date on that. There are so many great
resources out there that you can utilize, so go check
those out and I'll see you for the next episode.
Follow Pride to stay up to date on LGBTQ news.
(54:24):
We post new podcast episodes at Pride wherever you listen
and watch podcasts, and you can also check us out
on social media at Pride. I'll see you next time. Bye.
Strawt Media. I want to keep becoming better as time
goes on. Like I believe in constant growth and constant change,
and so if I believe in that for myself, I
have to be able to believe in that for other
people too. So I don't want allies to feel afraid
to step up and say things because they're worried that
they're going to say things wrong or miss something. I
want people to be trying, but I want them to
(00:24):
actually try right, do something really supportive rather than performative,
and then even if you do get it wrong, you
know there's space to learn, there's space to grow.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Hi. I'm Caleb McDaniel. Welcome back to Pride. Happy by
Visibility Week, Happy by Visibility Month, because really it's a
month long celebration. Happy September. We're in the Burr months,
which are the best ones obviously, So if you're celebrating
bur months, we made it. There's finally not a crisp
(01:00):
in the air, but there's a crisp in the air
in my soul. I've already been to Spirit Halloween multiple
times planning my Halloween costumes. So if that's something that
brings you joy, happy almost fall I'm trying to just
think of all the things that keep me sane. Right now,
happy premiere finale of the summer, I turn pretty for
(01:24):
all those who celebrate that it's now or it's already happened.
So we're gonna find out what happens there. So I'm
so excited to close that chapter. There's so much to celebrate, honestly,
in this this episode we talk a little bit about
that as well. I am on the show, joined by
(01:44):
my friend Sarah and Massey. We start out she's celebrating
a birthday, she's also celebrating by month, and we're really
just trying to find find the joy in the darkness.
She's an amazing guest. I'm so excited. She is an
award winning writer, actor, and activist whose career bridges comedy, drama,
(02:05):
and social impact. She's the writer behind Mother Trucker, the
new comedy set to star Amber Ruffin, and you might
have seen her as Emily Steele in This She Said movie,
which follows the New York Times investigation that exposed Harvey
Weinstein's history of abuse and sexual misconduct against women. She's
(02:26):
also the founder of Higher Survivors Hollywood, which is changing
the way our industry supports survivors. I'm so excited to
get into that segment of this conversation. But we also
we're covering so much. We're talking about, of course, her
recent trip to Disney, because I can't not mention Disney,
our shared love of Halloween, what it means to celebrate
(02:49):
by Visibility Month and navigate community and allyship during a
really challenging time for all of us. She talks about
building higher Survivors Hollywood into a full nonprofit, her work
on the Broadway bound musical The Right Girl, and of
course we talk about road trips and why they're so
meaningful to us, especially road trip movies, so stay tuned
(03:11):
for that. Of course, we're going to talk about Mother
Trucker and Amma Ruffin and the power of comedy. So
there's so much to cover. Please stick around. I'm so
excited for you to listen. Let's get into it. So
(03:35):
just have to ask how your birthday Disney trip was?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Was so fun. I went with friends, which I don't
do a lot like my husband and I have like
the annual past Magic Key and so we go a lot,
like more than most people go. But two of my
friends go once a year and they always go sort
of right around my birthday and we always miss each other.
So this year they were like, hey, are you going
for your birthday? Let's all go together. And it was
(04:01):
really fun. It was just like four of us riding
all the rids and it was so hot, and it
was like two of us never drink caffeine, and we
both had caffeine and it was just, you know, a
fun day.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
You had to have caffeine and Disney.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
When it's a long day like that. And one of
my friends had, just like the night before, flown back
from a two week trip to Costa Rica in which
she facilitates these healing ceremonies, and so it was such
a huge shift from the headspace she had been in
to be like kikye and mm hmmm folloween decorations and
(04:40):
characters walking around and she had a great time. She
loved it.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
That's good. I'm glad it went.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, did you get to see all the decorations and
you said you were going to go?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yes, I did. I'm going like a couple times this season,
so I don't. I was so pushy on like I
need to go and see Halloween and then I'm like,
I'm rarely going like at least six times season, as
if I'm not, like I'm going to Ugu boogie in
October like the Bash.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, so I was like, as if I won't see
it then, But I love. I love anytime it's Halloween.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, my favorite is the like Christmas winter holiday decorations.
M hm, really fun.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, I have a saw. Everyone always asked me if
Halloween or Christmas is better at Disney and I was like,
it's so hard because Halloween's my favorite season. Yeah, but
I think they go harder for Christmas obviously.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
So I always thought it was funny. I grew up
on the East Coast, so my family was like a
Disney World family. My grandpapa lived in Florida, so we
would go when we would visit him, And they do
a Halloween party after hours, and they do a Christmas
party after hours, and Disneyland doesn't do an after hours
(05:52):
like winter holiday party, which I always thought was such
a weird like missed money making opportunity, to be honest,
because I feel like a ton of people pople would
want to buy tickets for that. But they did Pride,
which Disney World does not do. So I'll take Pride
over a Christmas party for sure.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, I didn't know Disney World didn't do Pride.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, they've had ever. Even when I was a little kid,
they had these unofficial back then they were called gay Days,
and they were like fan organized, big, kind of like
how Dapper Days happen in Disneyland, you know, where everyone
gets dressed up. And my parents were like, oh, this
is so cool, like they loved it, but it was
never official. And so a few years ago, when Disneyland
(06:34):
announced that they were going to do an official Pride party,
I was like, wow, things have changed.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
I always go on unofficial Goth Day and I always
get mad because I didn't get the memo. I'm like,
I would have. I would have dressed up like I
was black eighty percent of the time, but never really
in Disney. So then I'm always mad because I've gone
I think on like three unofficial Goth Days.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
That's amaz saying where are you from? Where did you
grow up? I grew up in Arizona, okay, Because I
was thinking, like, having eighty percent of your closet being
black feels very much like me having grown up in
and near New York. But I'm not used to people
from the West Coast having a lot of black in
their wardrobe.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, honestly, I didn't wear I probably didn't wear a
lot of black growing up. Like this is more of
a me now versus Arizona, although in Arizona it almost
just doesn't matter because it's so hot that like, no
matter what, it's so hot.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, Arizona so beautiful, But my bad is it hot?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
It is? I Yeah, I'm going this weekend and I'm
not looking forward to it already. It is.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
So we're allowed to complain about annoying things even when
there's things going on in the world.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
That's the only way to stay seene right now on
this small things.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, at least some of the day. Because we try
to focus on everything horrific, you'll just shut down. And
I kind of think that's what they're for, all the
people who are doing all of the menace in the world,
that they'll just overwhelm all the good people so that
we can't do anything. So we have to try to
like work around their trips.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
True, we can't even choose a battle because there's too many.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Or we can have like a general meeting where we
decide to divide and conquer, Like, Okay, you two thousand
people take this issue, You two thousand people take that
an issue. Then we'll come back together, share a note,
and then figure out what we have to do next.
We need to be more.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Organized, we do.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
We need to communicate, we really do.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
But I mean, on a lighter note, it's Bisexual Month. Yes,
I know, it's for your birthday, and by.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Month, it's a good month to be bisexual, Rigo, that's
a good time of year.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Do you have any plans?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Oh, I'm just going to be really a bisexual every day,
you know, keep that up. That's been going well for me. No,
I want. I went away for a couple of days
for my actual birthday, and then I'm just really busy
this month. I'm actually speaking on a panel on September
nineteenth in West Hollywood about by visibility, So that'll be
really fun. Some really cool people rewrite the byline, which
(09:13):
is an a company organized it with the city of
West Hollywood, so it should be really fun. And I'm
just yeah, I mean, I only came out a couple
of years ago, so it's been nice for me to
be welcomed into community and like find where I can
connect with community because I'm you know, I'm busy and
I'm a little bit of a homebody, and everything with
(09:34):
COVID has meant that I've been even more like we're
talking to Dan Zoom because California is in a big
spike right now and I'm a compromise. So it's been
good for me to like force myself to actually connect
with people and have those community moments and just feel welcomed,
because I think that was a big thing for me
coming out later in life is I didn't know how
(09:56):
I would kind of find my place in the queer
community and if I would be welcomed. And obviously there's
a huge amount of virriration and biphobia at the best
of times, including in our community, so I kind of
had those anxieties going into it. It was funny because
I was never worried about coming out to my immediate family.
I knew they would be really supportive. They always have
(10:17):
been really supportive of the LGBTQI pless community. So my
bigger worry was like, oh, how is how is community
going to embrace me? How am I going to find
my place? And I don't know. It's just been nice
because I haven't had to change anything about myself. I
am still married to a straight guy, and like, you know,
that's not going to change. But that is what Memby
(10:39):
looks like, right Like, you can be in a head
of presenting relationship. You can like be whoever you are,
and that's just you know, part of the identity. So
it's been really nice to find that. And yeah, so
this month, I'm just going to continue to work my
ass off at my creative jobs and my nonprofit and
then go spend time with some folks who understand the
(10:59):
journy of you know, being queer. Right now, I think
right now too, it feels heavy being part of this community.
It feels kind of like beautiful but also scary because
I'm just watching things that I thought we had gotten
passed a long time ago start to be requestioned. You know,
the fact that we're having conversations about whether or not
(11:22):
marriage equality is going to be overturned by the Supreme Court.
And it's just like a very very strange time. And
it's interesting for me to have come out sort of
in this window of time because I still think I'd
benefit a huge amount from you know, straight passing privilege
and being seen that way for such a long time
(11:43):
that I've had to make sure that I'm being loud
enough about all of these issues, and I've had to
make sure that I'm showing up in solidarity for my
siblings in this community who don't have as much privilege
and safety as I do. And so that's also a
really I see that as like a really beautiful blessing
of being given an opportunity to step into that space
(12:05):
and needs the privilege that I do have to speak
out when people who are more targeted right now may
not be able to. So that's something I take really
seriously and like a responsibility I really want to shoulder
and in a way that feels helpful and authentic and
aligned with everything else that I care about and talk about.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Absolutely, I mean you saying all that, Like, I've been
thinking a lot about the buy community, especially because there's
so many communities obviously under attack always, but especially now
that we're trying to give platforms too and make sure
that we're helping anywhere we can. But then even with
the bisexual especially women, right now, I just get so
(12:45):
irritated and so now with by month, like we're trying
to figure out how to use our platforms to make
sure that we're speaking out against it because there's so
much within the community that's going on. Oh yeah, that
is so frustrating. So yeah, so I wanted to hear
if you had any thoughts on anything that you've been
seeing recently.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Obviously, our own government is, you know, targeting our community
in a really intense and terrifying way, especially I think
our trans siblings. And but then you look at the
broader world, like what's happening with JK Rowling and the
law that was passed in Scotland, and I also see
it within our own community, like there are sometimes conversations
(13:25):
that are happening where I feel like we're like separating
people off too much. I think it's important to acknowledge
that we all have different experiences, Like my experience is
never going to be the experience of a black trans woman.
I can't imagine what that is like. It's such a
vulnerable position to be in, and I'm not going to
pretend to know that. But I also think it's important
(13:47):
to like acknowledge those differences but not start separating off
into factions, like we have to come together, like talk
like we were joking about before, right, Like, we have
to be communicating with each other, and we have to
be supporting each other without erasing each other's experiences, without
downplaying the differences that we have, but using them as
(14:08):
more of like strength than something to faction us off.
So that's something I'm aware of too, and like when
I'm in spaces with other folks in the community, being
aware of not talking over people, not you know, only
coming at things from my perspective, like, there has to
be a lot of listening and a lot of like
sharing space and hearing what the pain points are for
(14:31):
each other so that we can actually step in and
show support when it's needed. Because this is a big
international fight that we have right now, and we have
to focus on the macro of it and how to
impact our you know, governments, whether they're failing or not
at the moment. But I think we also have to
make sure that we're showing up for each other in
the microways, within community, within our circles of our friends
(14:55):
and our colleagues, actually really coming together and supporting other
in the ways that we need. Yeah, I don't know
how you feel about that, Like, what's been your experience
recently since things have started getting worse in the broader world,
Like do you feel an impact within the community.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
I've been telling a lot of people have been asking me,
like how Pride months was, and I was like, to me, honestly,
it felt weird, which I think is fair with everything
going on, but it almost felt again like with the communication,
like I feel like we weren't communicating. Like I know
that there was a lot of things happening in events,
but I was like, I don't know. For me, I
(15:31):
just feel like everything feels off, and I feel like
we're not really all connecting, just even within the community,
and and I'm everyone's experiences is different and I'm only
like seeing a small part of it. But I was like,
I just feel like we all like need to be
talking more and linking up more and figuring stuff out. Yeah,
(15:54):
but I mean, we're all just doing the best with
the cards that we're being dealt right now.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
The other thing, right is like we're all just trying
to get out of bed every day at some level
and make sure we're safe when we're going to work
or diverse or so like there's so much just practical
trying to live and survive stuff that it is sometimes
a lot to make sure that we're showing up as
like our best selves. So yeah, some element of grace
too for the fact that people are going through a
(16:20):
lot right now. And then also I think I'm excited
to see more folks who are seemingly outside of our
community we never know. And I don't believe in forcing
people to out themselves ever, but seeing what are seemingly
like straight allies showing up more and talking about trans
rates and talking about all of these things that are
in danger, that excites me a lot. But I also
(16:42):
think there needs to be openness for allies to listen
to make sure that they're showing up in the ways
that are really supportive and are not performative. And I
think that's always a really nuanced conversation to have too.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Oh yeah, I mean, and we we get comments all
the time like why are you giving these people a platform?
And it's like it all we're all just we're all
trying to help, hopefully and we're doing it the best
way we can. And it's like again, it's like we're
trying to get the message across and hopefully it's working,
but you never really know.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So true, and I think I think because of like,
I don't know how much anyone listening right now knows
about me. But on top of like being queer, I'm
disabled and I'm a survivor, and I do a huge
amount of advocacy work, and I run a nonprofit called
Higher Survivors. And I think because I'm so publicly outspoken
about so many things, and I believe in holding people accountable,
(17:36):
I also think there's this misconception that I think that
if somebody does one thing wrong or makes one mistake,
or like has a history of holding a viewpoint that
is problematic, that they can't ever learn or come back
from that. I don't believe that either. Like I think
there are going to be imperfect allies who show up.
I think they're going to be imperfect people within our
community who come from the perspective they come from and
(17:57):
maybe say things that are harmful, and intention is less
important than impact. But I also think that if people
are called in or called out and actually hear that
and actually take accountability and dedicate themselves to learning and
educating themselves, it doesn't mean that people that they harm
ever have to forgive them. It doesn't mean that that
harm is undone, But I do think it means that
(18:17):
people have an opportunity to grow and to learn and
to actually step up in ways that are helpful rather
than harmful. So I think that's the thing too, is
like I have no patience for people causing harm, but
I also think like if we look at what it
is the nature of it and whether they're actually taking
responsibility and accountability for what they do and doing the work.
(18:37):
And I know doing the work is like so overused,
but I mean actually doing the work, not just saying
the things and like going to a few therapy sessions
or reading a few books on theory, but like actually
showing up in community doing harm reduction, doing harm repair.
Like we have an opportunity for people to grow. And
I hope I'm a better person five years from now
(18:58):
than I am right now. Like I think I'm doing
well and like trying to stay educated and trying to
stay act in and vocal. But I'm sure I'll look
back at things five years from aun and go, oh gosh,
what were you thinking. That's so uneducated, that's so you know,
needlessly harmful. That was a microaggression. And I say hope
that because I want to keep becoming better as time
(19:19):
goes on. Like, I believe in constant growth and constant change,
and so if I believe in that for myself, I
have to be able to believe in that for other
people too. So I don't want allies to feel afraid
to step up and say things because they're worried that
they're going to say things wrong or miss something. I
want people to be trying, but I want them to
actually try right, Like not just jump on a bandwagon
(19:41):
because they see other people doing it, but you know,
learn a little bit, talk to people in community, talk
to people are actually impacted, and then find out the
ways in which you can show up. You can use
your privilege and your platform to do something really supportive
rather than performative. And then even if you do get
it wrong, you know there's space to learn, there's space
to grow.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I mean, you said that you feel like you're not
doing enough, but I definitely always am seeing that you're
doing so many things. And you also said like, we
want to make sure everyone knows all the stuff you're
doing here, so yes, we want to talk about it.
So I don't even know where to start. Last time
we spoke, it was for that she said movie. Yeah,
(20:40):
and we talked about Higher Survivors, So if you want
to just kind of catch us up on that and
what it's been doing since then.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, so since we last spoke Higher Survivors, which grew
out of my own experience coming forward about being abused
by Harvey Weinstein. That was a very intense it means
to be very intense, really experience that nobody prepared me for.
And I am a pretty quick study and I'm pretty tough,
so I like learned quickly how to talk to the
(21:09):
press and advocate for myself and you know, fight for
what I needed and to be seen in the way
that I felt was appropriate. But I realized that as
I was doing this, like there were so many people
going through the same kind of thing, whether it was
on this really big world stage like I was, or
smaller ways in their own communities where they're speaking up
about their abuse, they're looking for support and they're not
(21:32):
always getting it, and they don't always know how to
talk about things in a way that feel safe to
them and how to find support in a way that
actually gives them what they need. So I decided to
start this sort of like educational initiative, and a lot
of our focus was on pushing back against retaliation, about
people who speak up about abuse or who have been abused,
(21:53):
about making sure that people have opportunities to be back
in the workforce because sexual violence, domestic violence talking a
massive economic and employment impact on survivors, and not everybody
knows that, not everybody talks about it. So that's how
it started. And in the years since, we've done so
much work. We've consulted in all these projects. We have
(22:13):
a survivor talent database, we have a free toolkit, and
we are now a fully fledged nonprofit. So we've been
a nonprofit for about a year and a half and
that means we can take donations and build out our
programming and it's been really amazing and we have some
really great partnerships and we're working on some great projects.
I'll talk about it here, we don't have it up
(22:34):
on our website yet. We've sort of soft launched a
new program that I'm really excited about, which is a
physical sponsorship program for individual creative projects. So we have
our first couple of applicants and approvals in some short films,
some features, and the only requirements are that you know,
the project takes our pledge is in alignment with our
mission and that somebody who is essential to the project
(22:58):
identifies as a survivor and 're the matis aerial sort
of fits with our mission statement. And it's really exciting
because filmmakers, theater makers, art makers can get donations for
their project to run nonprofit rather than doing a more
traditional like investor model, And we're able to help projects
launch and get off the ground that are telling important
stories and supporting important artists. So I'm super excited about that.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Oh my god, Yeah, that's so fun. So that's just
now starting.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Just now we sort of did it came out. What
I like about it most is it came out of
community need. So we're really big on being responsive to
our community. We talk about our toolkit being a living document,
always growing, always changing, always improving with community and input
and involvement. And we consult with filmmakers a lot. It's
(23:46):
like very comprehensive, will do sensitivity reads, we help with
casting crewing, we help create marketing plans, impact campaigns, all
this stuff. And so through that we've built a lot
of relationship relationships with especially independent film and all of
a sudden, over like a two month period, a bunch
of our past filmmakers, our current filmmakers came to us
and said, do do fiscal sponsorship or do you ever
(24:08):
do fiscal sponsorship? And so I brought it to the
board and we had conversations about it, and we talked
to an accountant, we talked to a lawyer, and we
realized it was something we could do and it was
something that would be really beneficial to the nonprofit and
also to our community. So that's really cool. I like
that it's been responsive like that, so that those first
filmmakers who came to us are the ones that we've
sent the application to and that we've you know, gone
(24:30):
through the approval process with. And you know, we were
kind of hoping maybe we could do an announcement in
the trades, but I think we might do a launch
just ourselves online and we're talking about it now with you,
so hopefully people will learn about it and we'll get
it up on our website and then we want we
want the trade coverage just because we want more artists
to know that this is available to them and to
be able to benefit from this. So I think it's
(24:51):
going to be a really good program.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
That sounds so exciting, and I like, I've you know,
talked to young filmmakers and heard the struggles of you
go through to go through that process. So that's so
nice that they have those resources.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, and we're also I think probably since last time
I talked to you, we've launched. So we have two
divisions now. The nonprofit is Higher Survivors and we have
High Survivors Hollywood, which you know services film, TV, streaming,
short form, and then hire Survivors Broadway for live theater.
So we've done our first couple of consulting projects on that.
We're building out a toolkit for that. And the fiscal
(25:27):
sponsorship program is also for theater projects.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
You've been doing theater too, right, Yes?
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yes, I was like I got a message I remember
speaking of all the Weinstein stuff. One of my very
talented fellow Einstein survivors and friends, Louise atte Geitz, who
is herself has a background as an actor and a writer.
She had an idea back in I know, maybe twenty
eighteen to write a musical about the survivor experience, and
(25:56):
it wasn't going to be specifically about Harvey. It's sort
of about, you know, an amalgamation of a lot of
these different stories. And I remember being with her at
like the Rap Power Women's Summit in La I think
in twenty eighteen, and she was telling me all about it,
and Diane Warren was there and we were talking about like,
(26:18):
I could you imagine if Diane Warren could do the
music for the for the musical, and we just like
went up to her and Louisa pitched it and Diane
was like, yeah, I like the idea, care take my information.
And Louisette and our other producer, Howard Kagan, who produced
like the Pip and Revival and Great Comment and all
(26:38):
that stuff, they brought her on. So I've been a
part of this musical called The Right Girl for a
long time now. Initially I was just supportive, and then
Louisette told us that the way they were going to
write the script is that they wanted to gather a
bunch of survivors together to just talk about our experience.
It's not just the experience of abuse, but what it
(26:58):
was like coming forward, what it was like for us after.
And she did a session in New York and a
session in La and there were probably about twenty five
of us, and we are all stakeholders in the project.
We're all story contributors. We have contracts that you know,
the profit share contract, which I thought was great. Louisette
and the whole team are really committed to the whole
higher Survivor's ethos, and they showed that right away.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And then they.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Invited me to come to like a table read that
they were doing in New York, the first table read,
and they had recorded some demos and it was a
whole bunch of these incredible Broadway actors, and they asked
me if I would read all the Survivor monologues and
I said, yeah, absolutely, And so then I told the
producer and the director, you know, I don't know if
(27:40):
you know this, but I my background is in musical theater,
so if you're ever auditioning, I'd love to throw my
hat in the ring. And like a year later, not
even a few months later, I got a call from
the producer and he said, hey, do you have a
singing reel? I do, and I sent it over and
he went, okay, you're in. I said, what do you mean?
He said, I like it. The direct I feel likes it.
(28:00):
Diane like Lee are great, You're in the cast. So
I have spent since twenty twenty workshopping this musical in
all different roles. We did like a three day workshop
in la and Diane Warrens studio. It was right before lockdown.
It was February of twenty twenty. It was kind of
the last thing I did before I really locked down.
And then that summer we did a Zoom workshop where
(28:23):
we met for two weeks and the producer sent us
like backdrops and microphones and lights, and we rehearsed on
Zoom and we had to record our singing parts separately
and then lip sync them on camera and then the
sound mix. It was really fascinating, and as somebody who
has a lot of experience in film and doing like
audiobook recording, I was totally comfortable, and I was like
(28:45):
having side chats with people teaching them how to set
up their tech. It was just it was chaotic and
super fun. And we were the only Equity actors working
in the entire country for that two week period because
Live Theater was shut down, but Equity agreed to let
us do this contract over Zoom and it was great.
And then I spent last fall in Winter in New
York workshopping this musical in person, and I usually do
(29:10):
sort of like the survivor track, so I had one
specific survivor who's in the ensemble that I'd played for years.
And the ensemble work in this show is beautiful because
it heavily is reliant on female and gender expansive actors
in the ensemble in the course, but we actually have
fully fleshed out characters with names and story arcs and
(29:32):
monologues and solo lines, and so it's been really fulfilling.
But during one of the workshops, they lost an actor
that they thought they were going to have for one
of the principal roles and asked me to step in
before rehearsals started. So I got to say one of
the principal roles and it was cool because it was
the journalist character, and I played one of the New
York Times journalists in she said, I played Emily Steele,
(29:54):
and then so I was like, oh, I actually know,
like I know how to get inside the head of
this character. I've done this before. So it was super fun.
And I'm just obsessed with the show and dying for
it to get to Broadway already because people are going
to love it. It is an amalgamation. It is not
about Harvey. It is about sort of the culture of abusive,
(30:16):
powerful men working within the entertainment industry. And it's built
on stories of people who dealt with Weinstein and Bill
O'Reilly and Russell Simmons and all sorts of people. And
it's really surreal, especially the first few times I did it,
because there are words that I said in those early
meetings that are in the script, and so every once
(30:37):
in a while, like my ear will tune into it
and it really impacts me, but not in like a
traumatizing way, but in a really powerful way. And it
seems to keep bligning with things that were happening, Like
we started the workshops and the readings the week that
the Weinstein trial started in New York and twenty twenty,
and we kept having these moments where like these big
things were happening for the show while big things were
(31:00):
happening in the case, and it just felt really, really
transformative and really healing, very similar to how she said
felt for me, because you know, I did lose my
career when I came forward, My acting career completely dried up,
and to be completely candid and honest, like I'm still
recovering from that. And I say that not so people
(31:20):
feel sorry for me, but so people understand the long
term impact of this. But when I got cast in,
she said, like, I went from being somebody who was
erased and silenced by Harvey and what he did to
me to somebody who got to literally have the camera
on me. And not because I'm a survivor, but because
I was seen for my talent, for my skill, for
(31:43):
the thing I love doing. I got to walk in
there and play a journalist. So like the power dynamic
was totally different. I wasn't playing a survivor. I was
playing someone with more like agency in the story, and
I got to go into the New York Times building
and be really supported by that team. Maria Schrader literally
like started cheering for me this and I walked on
set and telling me how excited she was. Now everybody
(32:04):
watched my tape and like, you know, and it's the
same energy in that room with the right girl. Everybody
who's in that room is really celebrated for being there.
Everybody's there because their talents are really special. But there's
also a lot of people there who also have lived
experience and who bring that nuance and that depth of
performance to this, and I think it is something that
(32:24):
is really healing. It's also funny. It's also like a big,
bold musical with beautiful numbers and fun dance sequences. And
I think people like, how can you write a fun,
splashy Broadway musical about this? But there's lots of Broadway
musicals that are about really traumatic, difficult things, and they're
really successful and they're really impactful. And so I think
(32:46):
I come from a comedy background too. I've done a
lot of sketch comedy, and I always think if you
can make people laugh, you can knock their walls down
a little bit, and then you can get the message
through in a way that doesn't feel heavy handed and
doesn't feel like the people are defensive taking it in.
It's just really important to have a story with a
message but also entertain people. It like does not have
(33:06):
to be mutually exclusive. So I feel really excited to
get to be part of so many projects that do
both of those things.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Anyone that wants that asks why something on Broadway is
so traumatic, like that like that has so much power,
Like have they watched anything on Broadway, because oh, everything
is really deep and really.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Sad uh Parade, Rag Time Lay Miss, Like it's even
want pathos and depth to your art right and your entertainment.
Like also there's room for stuff that No. I was
gonna say, there's room for stuff that doesn't have that
depth or pathos, but I don't even think that's true.
I was going to talk about I saw two shows
(33:46):
this last season that I was completely obsessed with, which
is maybe Happy Ending and Death Becomes Her and maybe
by the ending I describe it to people when they
asked me, it's like it's like an hour and a
half long live action musical version the Pixar movie, Like
it is so beautiful and heart stirring and really makes
(34:07):
you think about like humanity and death and meaning. But
it's a beautiful, fun musical at the same time. And
I was gonna say, Death Becomes Her is so campy
and so big and so splashy, and like the on
stage illusions are incredible, But that show is also about
like platonic female love and how society sets up women
(34:29):
to compete with each other and mortality and the meaning
of life. So like even ostensibly this like silly, campy
show has all this depth to it. And I think
that's how we know musical theater as a medium is
so successful, is that people have this sense of like, oh,
it's light and it's fun, and it's you know, maybe
even trivial. It's not like you're getting these messages that
(34:53):
sit in your bones and then stick in your head
forever because you can't forget the songs, you know what
I mean. Like, I think it's a really powerful medium
of art.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
And I just feel like it depends on how you
like describe it initially and how what people take away,
because you're like I can describe anything and really take
it to heart or really like sell it as a
fun little comedy, and you like I can do that
with literally anything.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Samea.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, So it's it's crazy. You're like, you know what
Wicked's really about? Like, yes, that's real true.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
And that's something I learned as a writer and as
somebody who runs this nonprofit is I'm never being dishonest
when I meet with people, but I'm very good I
think at quickly determining like what are people going to
respond to? What is something that is going to excite
them or make them feel ready to invest in something
or take a chance on something. And I can always
(35:45):
find that way in not because I'm making things stup,
because things that are good, things that are like valuable,
are nuanced and have layers and have all sorts of
different positive benefits, And it just about finding how to
connect with each person about what might matter to them
about it.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
So we have to talk about your most recent project
that's you know, taking over right now, which is Mother Trucker.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yep Trucker.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yes, So please tell me everything about that how you
said it started years ago.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
So I have a friend named Christina Carano, who is
just the loveliest person in the world, and she's like,
I have this idea and I feel like you're the
right person to make it happen and write it, but
I don't want to, you know, put anything on. And
I was like, no, tell me, And she started telling
me about how she had taken this road trip from
Chicago to LA when she was in college and she
(37:00):
drove across country with one of her friends and this
female truck driver. And I already was like, I'm super
I love this. Whatever this is, I'm really interested. And
the film now is very different It is about two
women on a road trip with a female truck driver,
but the women are in their thirties. There you know,
there's a search for a birth mom. Like it's a
(37:21):
whole thing. But it was enough to make me feel
really excited about exploring these women and like why are
they together? What are they like hoping to find? What
are they exploring? And this mother trucker came out of it.
And it's really funny. It's like a big, bold comedy.
It's a road trip movie, but it also is incredibly heartfelt,
(37:43):
Like it is about chosen family. It's about like questions
about motherhood and womanhood and what to do with your
life when you're in your thirties and in your forties
or in your fifties, and like what that means for
you being a woman in a very male dominated world.
I people are probably gathering at this point that like,
for me, if I'm going to work on a project
(38:05):
or if I'm going to write a project, it very
much has to come from a lens that makes sense
to me. So I have a very feminist lens, of
very inclusive lens. There's a bisexual character in it, and
what's hilarious to me is. I wrote this character years
before I came out, and it was always a little
bit of an avatar of me, Like there are qualities
in this character that I felt I really related to.
(38:26):
And when I realized that I was queer, when I
realized I was by I looked back at my writing
and I was like, oh, I kept writing bisexual characters
who were avatars for me. I should have known, like
my subconscious clearly knew before I did. But it's just great.
It's such a funny movie, and you know, I've had
some great producers on it for the past couple of years.
(38:48):
Then one really lovely thing about it is every single
person who's been set the script over the years, even
if the company has passed, even if they didn't end
up getting involved, they've all loved the script, like they've
really connected with it, laughed, cried, giving me the most
incredible feedback. So it was definitely one of those projects
where it's like it's okay that it's taking a while.
COVID happened, like things can take time, but I am
(39:10):
sticking with this and my producers felt the same way,
which I felt very blessed by. And a while ago,
an idea came up to approached Amber Refin for the
role of Ali, which is the bisexual character that I wrote,
and I was like, oh my god, Yes, she'd be
so perfect for this role. I'm kind of nervous because
she's an incredible comedy writer, an incredible comedian, like she's
(39:32):
going to read my script? Or is she going to think?
And my producer Tim got it to her and I
found out subsequently that she really doesn't read a lot
of scripts. She really has to feel like she trusts
the person sending it to her and she has the time,
but she's like, yeah, I'm going to read this. And
she was just an immediate yes. She loved the character
(39:53):
of Ali, she loved the script. She was like, what
can I do? I want to be in it? Can
I produce?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Like?
Speaker 1 (39:59):
How can I how can I get involved? So a
couple of days ago we announced Amber's attachment to the
project and we're out to directors now and things are
starting to move along and it's really exciting and I'm
in it too. I play a really fun sort of
recurring character it keeps popping up throughout the road trip
called Karen, and Hey, she's great. She's such an odd,
(40:21):
odd character, and I think it's gonna be really fun.
It'll be like you know my Annie Mamlow moment in Bridesmaids.
For sure, Well you know we're gonna also it has
like if we can get the budget that we're aiming for,
which I think we will. The script has so many
good needle drops in it. And I know, I don't
know anyone who's a writer might hear this, Go what
do you You can't write music into your script. It's
(40:42):
so like it's looked down on. It's not good. You
put people in the mind that it's gonna be so expensive,
And to me, I'm just like, nope. I music helps
to tell a story, and even if it ends up
not being this exact song, I'm helping people understand like
the mood of that moment or the mindset of that
character by indicating what kind of a musical moment this is.
(41:04):
So I just love it. It brings together so many
things that I love. And it takes place on the
road obviously, but it like starts in the Chicagoland area
and it ends up in LA and it's it's good.
It's really juicy, it's really funny and I'm just like
so thrilled. I mean when the other thing too, like
my ego felt really good. When I assumed, am we're
(41:27):
coming on she'd want to do a joke's polish or like,
she was just like, nope, I'm good. There's one thing
she wanted me to take out, which I did, and
it was one thing I had put in that I
didn't love but felt like it was like sort of
expected to be there. So she actually gave me permission
to improve the script in a way that felt more
(41:47):
aligned with the overall tone of it. So I feel
like the version we have now is perfect in terms
of like the tone and what we're trying to do.
And she's just so funny, and she's also so warm.
She has this like sweetness to her, but she's incredibly
sharp and incredibly incisive and just like direct in what
she says. And that's the character of Ali. Ali is
(42:10):
really comfortable in her own skin. She's really outspoken, but
you know she has to have this like kind core
in order for it to sort of work, and that's
that's Amber. So I think she's gonna make this role
just incredibly hilarious and beautiful, and it's gonna be good.
It's gonna be really good.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
I'm sad that I can't watch it right now, like
that it's.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Not plenty of scripts. You can imagine your money.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah please, because honestly, I love road trips, like those
are the best storylines. I don't know why, but they are.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I don't know how other cultures feel about road trips,
but I feel like there's something very American about the
road trip. Like we have such a big country, and
I know there's this like running criticism of like Americans
never get out of their own country, they don't travel there,
so close minded. But I always try to remind people,
like I have family from Europe, my husband said, of the
families from Europe. If you take like rush out, Europe
(43:09):
is smaller than the United States basically, and it's like
you can get it flight for fifty pounds to fly
from London to Adiza. Right, It's not the same here,
Like for Americans to travel to Europe, it's really expensive
and not everybody has that kind of money. We don't
have socialized medicine here, you know, like we we are
dealing with different things. So I think if people can
(43:29):
get out and even travel in the United States and
see other communities and other cultures. That's really beautiful. So
I've always loved road trips. I took them as a
kid with my family. I have driven across the country
with my husband now like six times in the nine
and a half years we've lived in LA So clearly
I have a really soft spot in my heart for
(43:50):
road trips and road trip movies, like even the Vacation movie.
You know, there's just like so much. I think it's
just like baked into our DNA as Americans, and there
haven't been enough road trip movies recently. I feel like
it's time for more road trip movies.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I agree, I think they always I don't know what, Yeah,
I don't know what it is. If it is just
like the nostalgia of me loving road trips, or like
putting these characters in such a small, enclosed space and
making them figure it out, and also like you kind
of go crazy on road trips.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Having three adult women in a cab of the big
Grig is you know, it sets some stuff up. And
also obviously in the movie there's a lot of like
high drinks and surprises. But I feel like that's what
it is to be on a road trip, like you
don't know what's coming around the next corner. You don't
know if you're gonna see, like what you're gonna see
on the side of the road, who you're gonna find,
what's gonna go wrong? How many times your car is
(44:41):
gonna break down? Like it is kind of a leap
of faith every time you get in the car to
take a road trip.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, I'm not even a big like planner when it
comes to trips sometimes, Like I kind of like to
go with the folk. I like to have a set
like idea, but I'm not like, oh, we have to
stick this is where we're gonna have the bathroom breaks
at Like I just like to just kind of see.
And that's what i'man with a road trip, Like you
can't plan anything.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Oh do you feel like in your regular life like
your are you very kind of organized and non schedule
or do you feel like you have that kind of
like I know things can change. That's school it's I
can be flexible, Like what's your kind because I wonder
if like your road trip attitude is different from like
your day to day attitude.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
I feel like with my job, I have to be
flexible like, I'd love to be able to just be
like from this hour to this hour, I'm doing this
and this and this, but like it's just not that's
not the reality I live in. Like things pop up constantly,
so I'm kind of just used to Like I think
in my ideal world, I would be very like time time, time,
(45:42):
everything out, but I can't. I just kind of have
to go with the flow most days.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Very flexible with me. I will attest to that. So
you're good at it, Alloway.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Well, is there anything else we want to cover?
Speaker 1 (45:55):
No, I could try, I could just I just feel
I kind of forgot we were recording this. It's like, oh,
just a bunch of talk to Caitlin.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
I know, I know, I wanted to just catch up.
I was like, there's so much more I feel like
we could talk about. But then I'm also like, we
need to talk about some other stuff, which I also
want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
That's the best kind of podcast to me, I've been
I've been watching and listening to Good Hang with Amy Poehler.
Really is just like fun conversations amongst friends, and to me,
it's really exciting because it's all these like comedy people
and talking about writing and talking about making a show.
My dream job is to be on a TV show,
(46:32):
hopefully when I've created like that would be a nice bonus.
But I feel like a TV show is the best
of both worlds of theater and film and also for stability.
My god, I have no stability doing what I do
in my life. It's like the stability of knowing, like
I have a show and it's run and it's been
picked up for four seasons and I'm going to have
a steady paycheck, and here are the people I work with,
(46:53):
And God, there's something about that that sounds like such
a dream. So hearing all these people talk about what
it was like to be on a show, what it
was like to create a show, it's like very inspiring
to me. But I feel like that's what has been
happening here. We've just been having like a fun conversation
where we talk about things that we're interested in. And
I love that. And I feel that when I watch
your podcast, like when I watch clips of it and
I watch episodes, people clearly just love talking to you,
(47:15):
and I think you're doing such a good job.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
I just love talking to people.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
That's my problem, Like I just had someone another guest,
and we talked about like cats for like twenty minutes.
I was like, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Do you have a cat?
Speaker 2 (47:28):
I do have a cat, yes, And he's a giant baby.
I think he's part what is the giant cat? I
always forget?
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Oh, yeah, I know the one you're talking about, but
I don't know the name. It has almost like the
point ears and lots of her.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
I think he's part that because he's like twenty pounds.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
That's a like cat. That is a cat.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
He's huge.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
I'm definitely allergic to cats, but I think they're adorable.
I know, I know. It's so sad dogs too. It's
just a real bummer. Oh one day, and I have stability,
meaning I have like one place that I typically live
most of the year, which is not me most of
the time. I want to have a pet pig. I
(48:10):
love pigs so much and they're so smart. And I've went,
I've gone and hung out with picks. And who has pigs.
Diane Warren has pigs, and a friend has her best
friend has pigs. And she gave all this money to
a pig sanctuary that's outside of LA And I went
and visited it once, and I'm not allergic to pigs.
Like I can spend hours like hanging out with pigs,
(48:33):
cuddling pigs. I don't get allergics. I'm like, all right,
this is it. If I'm ever gonna have a pet,
it's going to be a pig. But it needs to,
like I need to be in a place where it
has space. I'm not gonna have a pig in an apartment.
That's not fair. But one day, one day, your cat
and my pig can hang out. It'll be great.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
I love all those videos where people bring their pig
to the drive through. Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
It's the best. Yeah, I don't know what else do
we talk about? Is anything else that we talk about?
Still trying to get my why a fantasy series made.
I adapted this really great series called The Chronicles of Kerrigan,
which is like like three million downloads or something, and
it's independently published and it's a great series. I narrate
the audio books. That's how I got involved, and I
(49:14):
developed it into a pilot. It's so good and we
just have to find the right home for it. And like,
especially now, I feel like people need an alternative to
Harry Potter. I would just say, don't watch the new
Harry Potter, Like that's one thing I want to say,
don't watch it, just don't. Let's not give more money
to that. I understand it might be meaningful to you
(49:34):
from your past. You can hold on to that. Don't
give more money to JK. Rowling. But yeah, this is
good and it has a female lead and it takes
place at a boarding school in England. But it's not
Harry Potter and it's not like Harry Potter. It's just
probably will appeal to people who like it. So I'm
still trying to do that and trying to keep this
nonprofit afloat, so if anybody is listening and likes what
(49:57):
we're talking about and likes what we're trying to do
to support survivors and not just support survivors, like the
beautiful thing about the work, and I didn't mention this before,
is when we go in and consult and we go
and have a presence on set, we're really creating safety
and equity for everybody who's working on a project. Survivors
are obviously benefited by the fact that we're advocating for
(50:18):
their inclusion and for their being able to audition and
making sure that if sensitive materials being shot, there's like
support on set. But we will create like wellness spaces,
and crew will come and just like grab a stress ball,
have some candy, chat, let off a little steam, and
they're like two minute break and then go back to
set and everybody feels better. And because survivors are such
(50:39):
a diverse group of people and just so multiply marginalized,
when we improve the presence of survivors in the workplace,
we're also improving the presence of you know, queer folks
and you know, minoritized folks and disabled folks, and so
it's really it's really intersectional, comprehensive work. And so we
need money, need donations, We need supporters and sponsors, we partners.
(51:01):
We want more filmmakers to partner with us and studios
to partner with us. So I'll definitely give that shout
out because that's that's work. That's really hard work, but
really fulfilling. And I often have a hard time self
promoting in terms of like, oh, I'm an actor hireman
but whatever, But I will promote this until I'm blowing
into the face, because it's not about me, you know
(51:22):
what I mean, Like, it's about fixing or helping to
fix this like deeply entrenched problem that we have with
sexualized violence, gender based violence, domestic violence. And it's not
punitive work, like it's really creative work. It really encompasses
like the creative, collaborative spirit of making art, and we
just do that in a way that feels like it
(51:43):
can embrace people who have been pushed out and ostracized.
And I think, especially in the face of like clamping
down onto EI efforts, it's really important to support nonprofit
work that's still doing this, that's still pushing for this.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, it deserves its own shout out.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Sure, thanks Hirish rivers dot org, backslash, donate, support us,
read about it, let us know how we can help
you too.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
I mean, yeah, I think that covers everything we need
to talk about.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
I think so, from Disney to cats to the ills
of the world, Like we've covered it all.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Yeah, this is our day to day though, is jumping It.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
Really is, Like I'm not kidding, this is just how
my brain works. When I talk to anybody about anything.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Me too, me too, I'll be like, oh, yeah, that
reminded me of this. Has no correlation, but we're just
doing our best.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Is there anything you're really excited about right now, like
anything in your life or things that you're like working
on it you feel excited about?
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Hm, I don't know. I did just get an email
that I might get to talk to Julia Roberts, which
is exciting exciting. I do love her. Yeah, so I'm
excited about that. We're kind of taking new direction even
with this this whole podcast show, and we're trying to
(53:03):
make it just more available for people. So we're always
trying to because obviously online everything's just always changing.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
So oh my gosh, it really is. I'm working on
a project I can't talk about yet, but it's exciting
and it's like I think I emailed you and told
you what it is, so you you know what I'm
working on. But watch this space, so I will. I'll
be paying I'll be paying attention to a lot of
things that you're working on and seeing how you're making
it work as I developed this idea mm hmmm, mm hmmm.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
But yeah, there's there's always something come on. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
I love the work you do and I think it's
just such like a lovely bright light in the world,
and I always love getting to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Thank you. I think the same about you. Anytime you
messaged me, I'm like, oh god, my friend, my friend
is here.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
Th Cam welcome. Well, this is lovely.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Thank you all so much for listening. Be sure to
follow Sarah check out everything that she's doing. She's doing
some amazing work for Hollywood, so please follow along, stay
up to date on that. There are so many great
resources out there that you can utilize, so go check
those out and I'll see you for the next episode.
Follow Pride to stay up to date on LGBTQ news.
(54:24):
We post new podcast episodes at Pride wherever you listen
and watch podcasts, and you can also check us out
on social media at Pride. I'll see you next time. Bye.
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