Inside the Wrestling Observer with Dave Meltzer: Prime Time Vault

Step back into Mooney’s Vault for another unforgettable conversation—this time with one of the most debated and influential voices in professional wrestling, Dave Meltzer! Dave shares the story of how the Wrestling Observer Newsletter began, and the relentless dedication that still drives him today—often putting in nearly 100 hours a week. He explains why certain wrestlers choose to share information with him (and why others don’t), and how he built a system to verify what’s real. The discussion also dives into Dave’s unique relationship with Vince McMahon and WWE, and whether he’d ever consider working for them directly. Beyond that, Dave opens up about the future of pro wrestling, the rise of wrestling podcasts, and his take on AEW’s long-term potential. Don’t miss this must-hear, 5-star conversation with Dave Meltzer!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is a Prime Time with Sean Mooney production. Joining
PTSM this week is a man who both was loved
and loathed by wrestlers and fans alike still to this day,
and I don't think he'd have it any other way.
He's been at it for a long time, now decades,
and is undoubtedly the most cited source of the history

(00:20):
of professional wrestling with his Wrestling Observer newsletter. As we
welcome Dave Meltzer. And you know, Dave, I remember when
I was with the WWF and there was this newsletter
that came out every week with the pages front and
back in this very very tiny type, and a lot
of people at the office they wouldn't admit it, couldn't

(00:44):
wait for it to come out, because not only did
it have all the scoop about the WWF, it also
had news about all the other big wrestling organizations around
the country.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
And the world.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
I mean, would you cover happenings in Japan? And you know, Dave,
I always wondered how in the world you got all
that information. I know, you talk about you know, you
know you have tapes. And then also you had this
network of people all over the place who would call
you including wrestlers that would tell you what was happening.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
But really, how did you do it?

Speaker 1 (01:20):
How did you decide what we were going to put
in that newsletter every week?

Speaker 3 (01:25):
That's a I don't know. I mean it well, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
I mean what kind of hour weeks were you putting it?

Speaker 3 (01:31):
Oh? Geeze hundred plus? Well over one hundred, you know.
I mean I didn't sleep much and I wrote and
I was on the phone. I mean I took breaks
here and there, but you know, yeah, yeah, one hundred.
I would say, you know, that's that sounds about right.
I mean it's a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Well, and I know you mentioned this before, but like
I said, I don't know what that audio is going
to sound like. So tell me about your sources, like
people that were out there were these just people that
went to different matches and also wrestlers who would pick
up a phone after these matches were over and call you.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, both both. I mean fan perspective I would get
from fans and wrestler perspective I get from wrestlers. From
promoter perspective I get from promoters and bookers. So you know,
you're getting everyone's you know, I was definitely getting everyone's perspective,
you know, and just yeah, you know, and just business
perspective from the people in the business. So it's it

(02:32):
was a lot a lot of hind people. Yeah, I was.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Going to say, though, it had to be mean to
develop that network. I mean, how did you do that?
It just amazes me to think, I mean, just how
much was going on? Plus we said overseas and you've
got was it just time and just consistency.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
I think in the eighties, in the early to mid eighties,
it became like the the thing that everyone read. So
at that point it wasn't you know, and so many
of these people subscribing, so it wasn't it wasn't that hard,
you know. I mean it's like you'd think that, like,
you know, like there's this perception that and a lot

(03:13):
of the guys didn't like it, but they still read it.
But you know, the younger guys especially, you know, i'd
say this, the younger guys in the business in the eighties,
just like the younger guys now are way more open
to it because it's like they grew up with it.
So it's not a bad thing. The older guys. Yeah,
I mean a lot of the older guys in the
eighties really hated it, and the younger guys liked it.

(03:33):
But in time, the older guys, you know, I know
from talking to them, it's like, man, I used to
hate you, but now I look back, you know, that
was kind of silly. And the other thing was is
as they got older, I was I'm really interested in
history and good with history, and it's like I could
remember what these guys did. When you know, I think
that when you get to be like seventy or sixty,

(03:55):
even when you're out of the business, the thing's kind
of cool that people remember what you do, you know,
did in a way as opposed to forgetting. So a
lot of those guys, you know, then they became they
kind of turned around in time. You know, I think
most people turned around. It's it's interesting, I mean, and
you know, there were definitely people, even a lot, and
again it's mostly previous generation that that was real negative

(04:15):
and some people negative now, but that's also because they've
been really you know, there's it's some of them, it's
been really uh, you know, people rile them up on
Twitter and there's things like that that that get people mad.
But even then that usually dissipates in thirty six hours.
So and Twitter is just a weird thing. It's just
like you know, it's just it changes things. But in

(04:38):
the long run, you know, when you kind of realize
it and realize what it what it is and what
it isn't, it's nothing that really bothers you. You know,
it's just it's a wonderful thing and it's and it's
an annoying thing at the same time.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
Well, but when you think back in the day there
and you mentioned it here with the generations, you know,
we're talking old school and you had generation you know, families,
sons were coming up, especially in the eighties, we had
people like Brett Hard and you know, all these guys,
Great Valentine and they came from wrestling families, and so
you can understand the resistance back then because of the.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
K they well, you know, here's here's a funny story
with the with the Hart family. Stu and Helen Hart
always always liked me. They wanted because they Stu loved
wrestling news. You know, Owen Hart, Ross Hart, you know,
Bruce Hart were all friends of mine. Brett which is funny,
you know, was not but you know, you know, after

(05:37):
nineteen eighty seven, you know, and you know we had
met a couple of times, but no, he didn't like me.
And then after nineteen nighty seven, you know, when we
got to know each other, you know, he completely changed,
you know, and then you know, we're you know, we're
you know, if he comes here, you know, very often
we'll visit with each other and stuff, you know, and
we know each other and things like that from time
to time, so it kind of changes. But yeah, like yeah,

(06:00):
just it's like that's a perfect example of the wrest
of him with Stu. I mean, Stu was always so
nice and and you know, Brett used to tell me
about how he would get so mad because he didn't
like me, and Stu would be sitting at the Sunday
breakfast table and they'd be reading The Observer him and
you know, Sue and Ross and everything, and Brett was
just like, you know, he was on that on the

(06:20):
on the road and and and and you know, just
if he didn't like that someone he didn't like that
they were listening to so so heavily.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, and why do you think that.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
You know, there was kind of both sides to it,
because a lot of the wrestlers, you said, there were
some that would call you and give you information and
others that were just you know, got no way, you
can't give it up. Uh what do you think what
the two sides were on there? Because it was a
great source of information to know what your competition was doing.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, and you get the gates and everything like that,
which everybody everybody wanted to read. How you know, business
was in different cities and different you know, different company
and everything. I think it's the ones who read really
liked it and the ones who you know, just got
caught up in you know, exposing the business until they
no longer got caught up in it. You know, then

(07:13):
they then they were negative. But once once they kind
of accepted that the world had changed, then they weren't
so negative because there was no reason to be negative. Really,
if you think about it, I mean, it's like it's
like you know, baseball, you know, and and it's no
different from anywhere else. I'm sure that there's like baseball
team managers that hate the local newspaper and there's baseball
team managers that love the new local newspaper. And it
probably depends on when the team's winning and the team's losing.

(07:37):
You know so, and that's the same thing with wrestling,
when when the team's winning, you know, the press is
usually pretty favorable when the team's losing, and I'm kind
of pointing out, you know, why business is going down,
you know, I think a lot of people don't want
to read that, you know, as far as like if
they themselves are involved. And I was always kind of
you know, trying to figure out where the business is going.

(07:58):
That's always been the thing I mean, is really impressed
upon me very early on by the original people who
like taught me who were you know, And I really
learned from promoters more than I mean, I you know,
I mean, if I look back in the early eighties,
it was the promoters who who talked to me and
tried to explain why they did stuff and everything I
really tried to learn, you know. So that's how my

(08:19):
whole thing of like how business is doing has always
been like so important, like not how it's doing now,
but where it's going. Is business is going to go up,
his business going to go down? How the world is
changing effects business. I mean, that's the stuff that fascinates me.
Wins and losses is cool, you know, and cards are
great but the big picture is, you know, the big
picture is is like what's happening in the world with

(08:39):
the business and can more companies survive? And you know
how profits and things like that, and that's what I've
always covered the best.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
Really, So how did you get those gate numbers though?
And how did you know they were accurate? Because if
you're getting them from somebody who's a promoter, he's going
to try and you know, jack them up.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
To me, I don't think they're doing better. How did
you get that from me?

Speaker 3 (09:00):
Yeah? Well, I know, you know, it's like with like
the w W and everything. I mean, they would call
me every morning and give me this what we did
last night. I mean that's another thing that people had
the procession like they hated me, and they may have,
but they did call me every morning and give me
the gates and the merchandise to numbers. And you know,
I was able to double check with because a lot
of arena people read the Observer and still do you know,

(09:21):
and and I would just and I was able to check.
And like I'll say this for w W when they
were giving me gates personally, they're always to the dime.
So I can believe that because I checked, and you know,
they were so I mean and funny because they would
give me numbers that were different than the numbers, and
they would say on TV and all the time. And

(09:42):
I remember the conversation that with Vince and I go,
you know, was after a WrestleMania. It was not WrestleMania
three where this conversation took place. It was actually the
one in Anaheim where they announced like eighteen eight hundred,
and then Vince or Vince's people told me, you know,
whatever the number is, was like, you know, sixteen thousand.
It's like, what's the difference, right, And it just goes
what we say on television is for you know, the

(10:02):
numbers we get on television are for entertainment purposes, and
we're going to give you the real numbers. And then
later they became a public company. And once they became
a public company, as far as they didn't release show
by show, although they did to me for years, but
you know, they released the actual numbers that are now
public numbers. And at that, you know, you're not you're

(10:23):
not giving all I have to say. The gates are legitimate,
and the attendance averages that they put in their documents
are legitimate, but the numbers they say in public are
still not always legitimate, and anyone who does this very
simple math can figure that out. I mean, it's funny
because of WrestleMania. You'll they'll give you the number that

(10:45):
the average for the month, and then the average without
WrestleMania for the month. So it takes about twenty seconds
of math to subtract and you get you don't get
the exact number, but we get the number within you know,
a few hundred, and their numbers use ten thousand up,
and so it's like, okay, even their own documents, if
you use a little bit of math, you can kind
of see where you know these things are. Although you know,

(11:08):
so that's it's just kind of funny in a lot
of ways.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
What was there intent about to give you those numbers?

Speaker 3 (11:16):
I think because I think because w c W did first,
and they were in a wrestling war. On both sides
in that period were both trying to make sure that
I would say, I think both sides wanted to be
nice because it's the middle of a war, and I
was influential, and they wanted to, you know, not think

(11:40):
that they're the ones who are just you know, being
aloof so to speak. You know, it's like it's much
better to look it's like any other business. It's it's
you know, and again I'm more like a you know,
it's the same thing. It's like, what what advantages the
movie industry? It's giving the numbers to you know, the
box off as numbers at the movies. It's like, it's

(12:01):
just what they do or or you know, for the
UFC or whatever. It's just it's a part of journalism
in a lot of ways, w W, and in a
lot of ways is years and years and years decades
behind when it comes to this stuff, although they are
catching up. But you know, I mean that's that's basically it.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
So you met, You mentioned Vince. What has your relationship
been like with him?

Speaker 1 (12:24):
I remember that, and I was trying to think about
what year it was, but I remember you came to
Hamilton Avenue one time.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
You were doing a tour, a visit.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Ninety one, okay, and you came over to the studio
and I always wondered what that visit was about. Was
it Vince trying to make nice, trying to influence you
where you think.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
Board No, no, no, no, no, no. It was no. I mean,
Vincent and I were talking, you know, for a couple
of years and then you know, and get mad and
then not getting mad, and we talked and we wouldn't talk.
You know. It was one of those things, and then
you know, once he just goes, you know, I'd like

(13:06):
to invite you to come to Connecticut. And and as
it turned out, I mean, it all worked out because
it was it was SummerSlam weekend, and there were friends
of mine who got me tickets to SummerSlam, and it
was in Madison Square Garden that year, so it was
basically I think the day before or or two days before.
So it just that the timing worked out. So then

(13:28):
I went, and then Vince called a lot of other reporters,
you know, Originally it was just going to be me,
and then Vince said you and Steve Beverly, who was
another reporter. And then I actually suggested, well you probably
because because the other really good reporter at that time
was Wade Keller. So I told Vince Ago you probably
should also invite Wade Keller. And he ended up inviting

(13:49):
a lot more, as it turned out, not a lot more.
There were probably about a half dozen others but but that was, Yeah,
that was how that trip happened.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
Well, and you know, that.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Would have made sense because you've got people, i mean,
the same way you do with the press, and you
had guys that were, you know, very legitimate journalists as
far as reporting what they on the entertainment side of
this this industry. But it was so it was just
kind of amazing that they were the enemy the way
they looked the enemy.

Speaker 3 (14:20):
But you know, I mean it was funny because on
that trip, you know, they introduced me around to every
you know, all the executives, and we went into everybody's
office and got to talk to people. I met it
Cohen there, who I'm sure you remember, yeah, and he
was so nice and then, I mean I had never
met him. I knew the name obviously, you know, and
I saw his office and how everything, and he's the

(14:42):
arena guy and the business guy. So it's like he's
the guy who I'm gonna have a lot in common with.
And actually, very short, very soon after that, we had
a really good conversation and got along. I never talked
to him after that. And then when Davince goes, you
know what, you know, I want you and it Cohen
to be This is funny. I want Unit Cohen to
be friends and and he's going to be your guy.

(15:03):
And if you got any questions, you know, he'll ask
me what the questions were? You know, are just go
to you know, call him anytime. He's gonna call you
and whatever anything you need to know. And so, you know,
and people were always like, how did you know? You know,
you know who's the mole? And it's like, I mean,
and Ed wasn't the only one. I mean, there were
a lot of other people. And but the point is

(15:23):
is that me and Ed Cohen being friends. Vince set
that up, you know. I mean, that wasn't like Ed
Cohen going rogue and oh, I'm giving you the secret information.
He's like, Vince goes, Ed, you're the guy you deal with,
Dave JJ Dillon, You're the guy you deal with Dave,
you know, And there were other guys like that. This
is I had that And then still to this day,
it's always been like that.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
That's funny because.

Speaker 3 (15:43):
We'll not always, not always. There were periods there there
have been periods for you know, a year or two
where that isn't the case. But for the most part,
since eighty seven consistently that's been the case.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
That's really interesting though, because I remember, you know, at
least my time there, and I think it lasted before
I got there, and after I got there was always.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Like who's the guy, who's the who's.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
Right right right?

Speaker 2 (16:05):
You know?

Speaker 3 (16:05):
So, I mean I remember when wrestler I was at
the UFC show and a wrestler was there who I
didn't really know is a big name. I don't want
to indict him, a real big name, like like Top,
and he just kind of like laughed to me and
he just goes, you know, everyone wants to know, you know,
where you get your stuff from. And he goes, and
I know it's indirectly from Vince, and I go, well

(16:27):
there you go.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
Well that's funny.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Hey did they ever try and get you to come
on board works?

Speaker 3 (16:33):
I mean I would say never a heart cell. I
mean as far as soft cell A couple of times
yeah really yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, and you never
like it would more be, it would more be Okay,
we need help and creative and they just me and
they do this. Actually once with Brian Alvarez, who's my partner.
They came to they came through me for Brian wants

(16:55):
to but it was it would be if you call
and do you ask for this and this and this
and this. You could work here, and it's like, I
don't want to work there, you know. It's it's that
wasn't ever a goal. I wanted to be a reporter.
I didn't want to be in the business. So it
like literally there was never any serious talk. But over

(17:15):
the years, at different times there were feelers sent to me.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yes, but you were never tempted. You always liked the idea.

Speaker 3 (17:22):
No, I was never I could say I was never
tempted for a second. It was never I think that
if I was like broke and I you know, you
know what I mean. But but I was always doing
well enough to where it was never a temptation because
it was never a goal. And you know, it was like,
you know, you can make more money here. It's like
I'm doing fine and the one thing is that I
go there, I'll probably end up getting fired. I mean,

(17:42):
if ever even thought of it that deep. It was
always like I'm a reporter and as that's it, I'll
always be a reporter. I don't think that's ever going
to change. So work, you know, it's just not like
working in the company is just not gonna It's not
what I ever wanted out of it. I never wanted
to be that part of the business. I wanted to
be the part of the business that I am, and
I always been, you know, happy with it, and it's

(18:02):
you know, and now it would be you know, impossible
for a million reasons. But you know, no, So I mean,
like you know, like, yeah, there's been stuff. But if
you said, have they ever made you a serious offer?
The answer would be no. Have they ever asked you
to ask? Yeah, then the answer be yes.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
So a big part of the newsletter, and was even
huge back then, is that the star system. And people say,
originally that was Jim Cornett who kind of came.

Speaker 2 (18:33):
Up with that idea.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
But right, how did that really all come together? And
what started you doing it? With the matches?

Speaker 3 (18:42):
Okay, So when I started doing the newsletter, there was
a guy there was another newsletter called Weasel's World of
Wrestling by a guy named Norman Dooley, who I actually
copied him. I mean I copied Mike Tonay in the seventies.
In the eighties, I copied Weasel's World of Wrestling. Norm
Dooley because he was so funny, and I was like, man,
I would love to be able to be as funny

(19:02):
as him, which I never was, but that was like
kind of like the goal. That's why if you ever
read the old Observers, there's a lot of wise cracks
in there. And now there's humor. I do real inside
humor for a few people who will get it, but
it's it's I don't do a lot of humor now,
but then I did a lot of humor. And one
of the things the Weasels World newsletter did was star

(19:23):
ratings for matches, so I didn't and Norm Dooley was
was best friends with Jim Cornett, so I actually didn't
know till years and years later. It was Jim Cornett
who came up with the idea. But it was in
the Norm Dooley newsletters. This is how he rated matches,
and I just copied the system. It was never mine.
It was never like a cut and dried system because
Norm Dooley, you know, and Norm Dewley was. I wish

(19:46):
everybody could see those those issues because other than Cornett,
I don't know if anyone alive still has them, but
they were some of the most funny and incisive writing
on wrestling as far as like the late seventies and
early eighties that there.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Was so what what is this? So how does it work?
When you're looking at it?

Speaker 3 (20:02):
I mean, okay, so dud is a totally worthless match.
Negative stars is like an offensively bad match. One star.
One star is kind of like it's there, you know,
it's not good. It's not good. Two stars is fine,
and two stars a normal match. Three stars is a
good match, four stars is a great match, and five
is like, okay, this one's anything really over four and

(20:24):
a half. In the old days, I would say four
and a half and up, it's like, let's consider this
one for Match of the year now because the talent
is so into having great matches, it's it's the mentality
so different. That's how they get noticed is having great
matches now, like you really have to be like five
stars to get to match of the year qualities. And

(20:45):
then there's been a few matches I've rated above five
stars because Norm Dooley's highest ever was a six and
a half I think or six yeah, six and a
half or six and a quarter or something like that.
So I never really I didn't go above five until
Norman Dewley went about five in early in the early eighties.
I didn't go above five for any match until god,

(21:08):
I'm thinking eighty nine Flare Steamboat, the one in Landover Mills,
and then and then a couple of Misaua Kuada and
and I think there may been a Japanese women's match
that I went above five for, and then a couple
of years ago with I hadn't done it for like
fifteen years, yeah, maybe fifteen years. And then I did

(21:32):
it for omegan Ocada Tokyo Domain and people short circuited,
which at the time I watched it, and when that
match is over, it's like, Okay, this is one of
the three best matches I've ever seen in my life.
So it's not a five star match, it's a six
star match. And then they improved on that in their
in their subsequent matches, so that made it even harder.
I mean, it was like such a joke because it
got to where my friends would come over and we
would watch Omego Cota every Omego Cotta match after the

(21:55):
first one, and when it's over, it was always the
same thing. It's like, what are you going to rate it,
and I feel sorry for you because people are going
to lose their minds because and they all knew that
it was like these were the best matches they'd ever seen.
And then you go like people are gonna you know,
it's like, I feel sorry. It's like when Kenny Omega
and Okata have these matches, It's like we watch it
and it's the greatest matches that we've seen, and then

(22:17):
we laugh for a week because everyone goes after Dave
for saying that. So that's kind of, you know, it's
kind of what happened, I guess.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
But is there criteria?

Speaker 1 (22:26):
I mean, do you do you have things like, you know, execution,
you know, it's all there, it's stage, you know, are
you just look at entertainment.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
I'm definitely looking entertainment, crowd reaction, execution. I'm really into
storytelling and you know it, which is funny because everyone
thinks I'm into moves, but I'm not adverse to moves either.
There are some people who just like hate moves, and
it's like, look, if moves get the people going crazy

(22:56):
and they're doing a moves match, then I and I
like it, then it's good too. I don't I like, like,
you know, again, I think a lot of people do.
I think, And this has to probably do with my
being a big fan of luch libre, which is a
completely different style. And I love great lucha libre just
like I love great American style in Japanese style. But

(23:16):
so so, if I see something that's like essentially a
great lucha libre match, a lot of people go, ah,
there's no psychology, there's no reason they're doing all this stuff.
And sometimes I think that too, But and and that,
and if I do think that, then I'm not necessarily
going to rate it that high anyway. But if it's
like building the crowd and taking the crowd, the little
thing is taking the crowd on a ride, you know,

(23:37):
through your through your match. Some people, there are some
people who take a crowd for a ride just on
the fact that they have such incredible chrisma. And that's
not the same thing, like like hul Cogan just an example,
who is one of the greatest, most charismatic guys I've
ever seen in life. But when he would do matches,
it was basically formula. He would, you know, and it worked,

(23:58):
and you know, I wouldn't knock it. You know is
badly executed. I might, but but the whole thing was
is to me, those aren't classic matches. That's just straight formula.
You know, you're ten minutes, you do this, you do this,
and it's not bad. But I wouldn't say, like, this
is the greatest match I've ever seen. But you know,
sometimes those matches get incredible, incredible reactions because of the
charisma of the person. I'm more into the matches getting

(24:20):
great reaction based on what they do in the ring,
like taking guys who are average charisma guys or not
ain't even better than average, but the match starts, people
are kind of into it and taking him to where
at the end they're going crazy as opposed to they're
going crazy from the start because this guy comes in
and tears his T shirt off and he knows how
to keep the crowds. And you know, I mean, Hogan's
a master and I'll never deny that. But I don't

(24:42):
think like Hoke Cogan matches are are classic wrestling matches.
I don't even think he thinks that, And other wrestlers
never did either, you know, back in the day, because
it was always like you know, people would always compare
Hulk Hogan and Flair. And I think everyone kind of
knows the difference between the two of them. They're both
both great at what they did. Hogan was the bigger,
more charismatic star. Flair was the great worker who had
the great matches. And you know that. And they both

(25:05):
go down, and they'll both go down in history, and
I think that they're I think that they're both very
satisfied with that thing. I mean, you know, Hogan will
tell you if you ask him, that Flair was way
better than him, and Flair will tell you that Hogan
was a much bigger job than him. It's just and
and And they're both great for their They're both great
for the business.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
Mutual respects society. That's definitely true with them. You know, Dave,
did you along the way? I mean, you really have it.
I mentioned at the at the top of the podcast
here that you really have become the historian of professional wrestling.
I mean, uh, Conrad and Bruce's job would be a
lot harder with their podcast if they didn't.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
Have the newsletter to refer to.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
But do was that something you ever planned on, you know,
basically being the historian for professional wrestling?

Speaker 2 (25:51):
Or did it just happen along the way.

Speaker 3 (25:53):
I think it happened along the way, but I did.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
So.

Speaker 3 (25:57):
Paul Bosh brought me to Cauliflower Alley Club in the eighties,
and this would have been very early when I was
doing the newsletter, and he introduced me to all of
the wrestlers. And these are guys, every one of these
guys from you know, Buddy Rogers and Clara Mortenson who's
probably named no one's ever heard of, who was actually
the world women's champion before Mildred Burke, who's another name

(26:19):
that probably people haven't heard of. It was actually one
of the biggest stars in history wrestling. But he would
introduce me to these people, tell me who they were.
And I think because Paul was an older guy at
the time, you know, he always impressed, you know, like
to learn, you know, to know this business, you have
to know the history of the business. And I've also
been very lucky that the best historians in this business

(26:42):
are guys who ended up being my friends, like Steve
Ohe and people like that. So I always had like
go to guys who just these guys would go to
the library and go through the old newspapers in the
tens and the twenties and the thirties because wrestling was
covered really big in those days. People don't know that,
like I think, you know, oh my god, you know,

(27:02):
like you know, there's there's stories and whatever. It's like,
you know these sports sections. When when Jim Londos or
Striyana le Lewis came to town. I mean, these guys were
you know the cream, you know, it's it's I don't
want to say Lebron, but like someone said, like what
was what was the comparison? They said, there was nobody
like then that would be equivalent to Michael Jordan, But

(27:26):
we did have Charles Barkley's like stranger. Lewis would be
Charles Barkley in the sports scene in the twenties, like
in the sense that he's a major, major, major figure.
He was not the major figure like Jack Dempsey or
Babe Ruth, although he was talked about it in their category,
but they were way ahead of him. So those guys,
they yeah, those those guys really influenced me and would

(27:48):
say that they send me stuff and I always wanted
to read it because I always want to know the
history and history is really weird in wrestling because you know,
you read ten versions of history and they're ten completely
different stories, so you kind of have to everyone's got
their own interpretation of them. So, yeah, wrestling history is
tough because you know, unlike baseball and football and everything
where it's really written down, wrestling, yes, it's written down

(28:09):
in the twenties and thirties because of the newspaper stories.
But at the same time, you know, you know, the
newspapers didn't necessarily very often go behind the scenes, and
wrestling so much about behind the scenes, so the behind
the scenes wrestling stuff is very much open to interpretation
of what was going on. I would say probably you know,
through I would say the eighties, you know, because the

(28:33):
people you know, I mean, it just wasn't written down
what happened. So you're relying on memories and I've known,
you know, even from your own memory. You know, it's like, yeah,
you remember things pretty close. But then you'll read back,
like I'll read back at something too, Oh yeah, I
did forget that detail, which is actually sort of significant.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
Yeah, well, and is it's amazing though that you can
go back decades now and it's hard to think that
it's just been so many years now but really you
could find out what happened in great details, well pretty
much any night at any event that has taken place,
and uh yeah, and it's it has happened. I guess

(29:08):
it's it's funny you say it happened along the way,
but that's what that's what's happened. And it's pretty amazing
because everybody refers.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
To it now.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah, yeah, and it's great for research. Of course, people
with their agendas, you know, try to change history, you know,
I mean, it's and then there're usually people who ended
up failing in the business, you know, you know, try
to blame other people. But you know that happens too,
So well do you do you enjoy the.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
I guess back and forth, I mean with with Eric
Bischoff and Bruce and.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
Bruce okay, so so Bruce. You know, it's the funny thing.
It's like, I haven't really talked to Bruce in a while,
but I do, and I don't listen to the show regularly,
but when he was doing stuff on the on the
w W network and a couple of shows like people go,
well this one you need to listen to I listened
to him, and I find Bruce entertaining. I don't have

(30:01):
any like Animaster, but Bruce's you know, Bruce is Bruce.
He's going to defend Vince. He got his job back
with Vince. And you know, I think that that's what
that's the tact took, was it? You know, it ended
up I think it ended up being stick very quickly.
So it's just like the stick, you know, you know, uh,
plans change or whatever, which God everyone knows plans change
in this business. On Anyone who ever worked in WWE

(30:23):
on Monday on a Monday can tell you how plans
change regularly up until that show starts. But but yeah,
with Bruce, it's like I I you know, and again
I've known Bruce since he was, you know, in his
early early twenties and you know, and so and I
talked to him and he was in WWE and things
like that. So I don't really like, I don't think

(30:44):
I don't know Bruce. I think is doing it all
in fun. People will talk about Shavanny and I know
Shavanne's is it's just stick and he's openly admitted it.
And I, you know, I like Tony Shavanni. Bruce, I
don't you know, I'm entertained by Bruce. You know, sometimes
it bothers me, but know most of the time and
and it really doesn't. I'll just say, like, look, Bruce's
own co host will tell you that they're doing an

(31:05):
entertainment podcast in his co host, you know, and you know,
we'll we'll talk about you know, he has nothing negative
to say about me on a personal level, for sure,
And so I don't really have from Eric. Eric's you know,
Eric's a different, different piece of work, just a bitter guy,
and you know, he he he was very you know,

(31:25):
and I'll always give Eric credit for certain things. You know,
Eric did usher in the modern era of television with
Nitro and the Mononet Wars were an amazing time and
he deserves a lot of credit for that. They also
went down, which you know, and it was nobody's singular
fault they went down. It was a group thought. But

(31:46):
the thing with Eric was is that is that there
was a book written that you know, Eric and Kevin
Nash and Hogan and Vince Russo were kind of like
the villains in the book. And I didn't write the book,
but as far as factual accuracy, it said Brian Alberts
wrote it who's one of my best friends and he's
my partner. And the book relies on factual numbers all

(32:06):
the way through. This is what happened, This is how
the gates dropped and all this, and that's like the
basics of the book. It's an excellent book, okay. And
Eric legitimately thought I wrote the book and I didn't
write the book, and I remember when you know, he
had you know, he didn't find out I didn't write
the book until like a year ago, and it hated me
for like fifteen straight years with a passion because he

(32:27):
thought this book, he thought this book he never which
he never read, by the way, he's only on he
just knew he was on the cover of So that
was his, you know, agenda for hating me. And no,
he's he's not a good he's not a good human
being in any way, shape or form. You know, you
can see the difference, you know, if you know, I
mean you can you know if you ever see this stuff,

(32:47):
Bruce will say, you know, I mean, Bruce is all
it's all in fun, you know, whereas with Eric it's
I don't think it's in fun. But you know, that's
his cross to bear. It's my mind because I don't
I don't really, you know, I don't really worry about
him because he's you know, his history's history, and like
I said, Eric's a fantastic television performer. When they've made

(33:11):
Daniel Brian GM of Braw, I mean or Cerence Fact
and I should say a couple of years ago, I
told people, I go, I hope Eric gets that job
because of all those guys, Eric is so good on television,
and some people I's too old. Now it's like, ah, Eric,
Eric will be great. They picked Daniel Brian, which actually,
because of who Daniel Brian was, was the better choice
at the time. I don't even know that Eric was
ever under consideration. It was just like, who would you

(33:32):
put They're gonna announce general managers of both brands, and
I just thought, man, Eric's is sitting at home and
he's a great TV performer. So I mean, I'll, you know, again,
there's a lot of good stuff I could say about him,
and I will, you know, as far as his role
in history, but you know, it's it's he I got
very different opinions of him overall.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah, but I really I think that you mentioned Bruce,
you know, and Eric and Tony, I mean, they're just
they're all great entertainers as far as I see it.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
And and you like Eric.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, I like Tony and I was really happy to
see him come back on MLW and he does a
good job there. And you know, he's a voice of
a lot of people's childhoods and he's good, you know.
I mean he had a bad run at the end
of WCW, but everyone did, everyone associated with that product.
You know, you're trying to show for a product that's
just going down the tubes, and every announcer there took

(34:24):
you know, like credibility lumps. So if you're an announcer
in the company is just terrible, you're become a become
a bad announcer. If you're an announcer when the company's
on fire, you can be and and you're good. You'll
be a good announcer. You know, you can still be
a bad announcer for a good company. But but if
you're a good announcer with a really bad company, you
because you're trying to sell angles that make no sense.

(34:46):
It's it's it's it reflects badly, you know, and it's
just unfortunate. It's just unfortunate.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
Really well, I think it, uh, I think that we're
blessed that we have these guys out there now doing
these things because they really have revitalized the lot of
the business, you know, people being interested in what happened in.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
The eighties and the nineties. And uh, I think it's
just great to see.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
But looking ahead, and you mentioned a w earlier on
what do you what are you seeing ahead for the business?

Speaker 2 (35:15):
I do you like what you're seeing? Is it? Is
it in flux? I think as you said that it's
a wait and see.

Speaker 3 (35:21):
Look, I mean it's it's got to be a wait
and see and I mean it's really like so far.
But so far they've had a few at bats, I
would say, you know, they did the All In Show,
which was not ae W but it was the guys
who were doing aw That show was a home run. Yeah, okay,
they did. They did the on you know, the uh

(35:41):
the announced some some of their announcements and things like that.
That's got a lot of interest. Then they put tickets
on help for the Vegas Show. That was beyond a
home run. That was something that like, I mean, except
for w W E, there's never been a demand for
tickets in this country for a show like the All
In two that's in Vegas. I mean the number of
people who were turned away on the first thirty minutes

(36:01):
of ticket sales. You know, it's thirty thousand people that
were over thirty thousand you know, just well yeah, right
at thirty thousand probably, but you know it's actually over okay,
So yeah, need a big But the point is is
that's another So that's that's a home run. But they
haven't run the show, and they're going to live or die.

(36:23):
The history of that company is going to be written
on television and we don't you know, how are you
going to do whatever the TV is on whatever this?
Do they get a station to be a station that
pays everything? You know, based on what is going on.
Everything feels good, okay, but you still never know, like
as far as like where they're going to get TV
and what kind of exposure and things like that. It

(36:44):
feels like it's going to be good, and it's going
to be good, you know, good for the industry. But
in the end, it's up to the fans. I know
that they have a very fervent fan base of a
certain number of people that you know, will we'll go
to these shows and will to fly across the country
for these shows. They don't have millions and millions and

(37:05):
millions of fans like WWE, nor do they have to,
but they do have to get whatever the number is,
you know, whether it's a million, and I don't know,
you know, it depends on the station you're on. You
basically have to get whatever are competitive numbers for the
station that you're on. You need to get that number,
you know, whether it's five hundred thousand or three hundred thousand,
or a million five or a million two or whatever.
But depending on what station and what timeslot, you have

(37:28):
to be able to get that and keep that that
kind of a number. And we don't know, you know,
we don't know if that many people are gonna watch
more wrestling in in the end of twenty nineteen early
twenty twenty. So again, like you know, they can go
in on this May twenty fifth show and and have
you know, it's already sold out. They're gonna if they

(37:49):
go out there and have incredible matches, everyone goes this
is an incredible show, like the first all in. I mean,
that's great and it's wonderful, but in the end, if
they drawn four thousand fans and the show was good
but not great in the long run, that doesn't make
a difference. But the real difference, it's a momentum difference.
But the real thing, the game really starts when they

(38:10):
start on television. If they get they do well enough
to where they can get paid for television rights, because
that's the name of the game in every sports is
what you get paid for television rights. So it's up
to them to be able to draw enough viewers on
a weekly basis to where television stations want their show
and are willing to pay good money for their show,

(38:30):
and that funds the company, and then they'll be around
as long as those TV deals are around. Just like
with Vince, Vince's not about selling tickets to house shows.
He's not about pay per views, he's not even about
the network, although the network's important. He's about selling these
television rights. And that's why WWE as a business is
so incredibly, incredibly successful and will be for the next

(38:52):
sixty years no matter what they do, as long as
these deals are in place, whether the product itself is
good or bad, you know, And then a lot of
people don't like the product. And there's look I watch
on on some Mondays and I don't like it. I
watch on some Tuesdays and I like it. I love
some pay per views, I hate some pay per views,
and I'm in the middle and some. But in the end,
it's not about you know, like like last night's show
didn't sell out, Oh my god, WW is doing terrible. No,

(39:14):
they're not. They're you know, if they they're about TV rights,
and the TV rights are guaranteed money. They're guaranteed until
twenty twenty four, the end of twenty twenty four, So
there's nothing to worry about business wise with w W
when they're getting burn in seventy million a year from
US TV, and god knows how much they're going to
be getting outside the US, between India and UK and
Philippines in Canada and Mexico and all these other countries

(39:37):
in the world.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
But why do you think, though, and you've seen this
company for as long as it's been in existence, why
do you think they're struggling creatively now? And that is
they are from everybody, And why do you think is
it cyclical or is it something you know, we've seen
it go up and down they don't have any competition,
or is it just bad creative.

Speaker 3 (40:00):
I think it's too much television that they're trying to fill.
It's a chicken in the egg. They're in a position
where they're making so much money, but by producing so
much product and making it so hard to keep up,
they're burning the audience out. That's why the ratings are
going down because they but financially they have to produce
this much product, so they're producing too much product. It's
it's actually something that's if you study the history of television,

(40:23):
it's consistent with you know, in this like whether it's
game shows or talk shows or sitcoms or whatever. What
happens is something gets hot and then when it gets hot,
everybody copies, and then you flog the market with it.
And once you flog the market, people burn out with it,
and then you got to come up with a new
concept to say the things. And that's what this is

(40:43):
is is wrestling right now, and cable is strong just
because it's so hard to get lots of viewers to
cable shows, and wrestling, because of its history being sort
of a sport, has a very consistent audience. But then
they've done there's so much product that you burn people out,
so so you're you're having that effect. But even with

(41:05):
burning people out, the number you're at right now is
still a very good number based on what everybody else
in the cable is drawing. If you keep going down
twenty percent a year, that's a scary thing. And and
so so there is there is that aspect of it.
But they're making so much money and and and they're
becoming fixtures and culture at a way they've never been before.

(41:28):
So it's like I almost think that, like they're good.
They're good as gold, for you know, nothing's forever but
for a long, long long time. So I don't really
worry about it. But I do think that like the
the amount of and some of the TV decline also
is people watching another means. But but you still have
the attendance decline, you know, I mean, and that that's
just you know that, and that's a better barometer. That's
Vince's barometer in a lot of ways, is when he

(41:50):
looks at the attendance and and that you know, that's
a real decline, but it's not. That's not as big
a decline. It's more of a very slow decline. But
still do you want slow declines every year? You know?
I mean, you know, you remember when there was when
w W how shows did twelve thousand people on average,
and now it's four thousand. It's a big difference over time,
but it's also over twenty years.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, And I don't want to call them a threat,
but do you think that AAW can have an impact
on the WWE at least with challenging them to be
have a better product and also giving these boys, the
boys and women, I should say, more options.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
It's going to help the pay scale for everyone because
there's competition for the talents. So that's very good as
long as they're viable. And let me see as far
as creatively, if AW comes up with a concept that's good,
WW will probably try to follow along with it. You've

(42:50):
already seen more of an emphasis on men's tag teams
already because they know that AEW is gonna focus heavily
on men's tag teams. You've already an emphasis on longer,
better matches because they know AEW is going to be
about better match So in a sense, I feel that
they're trying to beat ae W to the punch because
AW has no TV with what they presume, a W

(43:12):
will have his strengths and have those strengths by whenever
they start TV to where AEW doesn't corner the market
on tag teams or great matches on television every week.
So I, yes, we've already seen, we've already seen, we've
already seen changes because of it, and yeah, that's that's
what it.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Is, and it's gonna be it's gonna be fun to watch.
I'm really excited about seeing what's happening. Uh, Dave, before
I let you go, can you give me your three
all time matches? And then, and I don't know if
it necessarily has to do with having the most stars,
but just for yourself personally, are there three that that
you can give me that really stand out?

Speaker 3 (43:51):
Well? Omegan o'cada from the June Dominion Show is the
best match I've ever seen. Really, Yeah, oh, without a
doubt that that wasn't a class above any match I've
ever seen. The Omega Ocadam match the year before at
Dominion would probably be my second best. And then as

(44:11):
far as third, there's there's really a lot of different ones.
You know, I couldn't really go with a straight third,
but most of the ones I would say would still
be matches I've seen in the last five years and
really the last two or three years. Yeah, because because
he got so many of these young guys that they're
so you know, they're so into having these great matches.

(44:33):
So I mean, it's it's a stylistic thing. But yeah,
I mean I've seen wonderful, wonderful matches, you know, every
year since the beginning of time. But I would say
in the last three years, especially twenty eighteen, as far
as numbers of great matches, I think someone actually did
a table. And in the early nineties there was a lot,
like early early nineties, there's a lot, a lot of

(44:54):
great matches all over the world, and then it kind
of went down, you know, like that early nineties period
and actually like in Japan and everything, and guys got
hurt and guys got older, and this the business moved
changed in certain ways, and then like from twenty sixteen
it really started coming back to what I you know,
like near record levels, and last year was really the
record level. I mean, when you talk about the kind

(45:16):
of matches they were having in Europe and in in
in the United States, especially on the indie scene, and
you know, obviously Japan, it's it's you can't even put
this way. There were matches that I would have died
to see that I can't keep up with, and everyone
says that to me, it's like, we can't even keep
up with the four and a half star matches or
so many of them. And it's like, you know, it's
not being easier because if I watch old matches that

(45:39):
I thought were great, I would go like, you know this,
they're still great, but my god, have we evolved. And
it almost makes you go like this talent that we
have now as far as producing matches and athletically and
then the thought process going into the matches, because you know, before, guys,
you look, you're working three hundred nights a year, so
you're you're just trying to have good matches every night

(46:02):
and things like that. But when you're working a lot
less dates and you can focus I've got this one
match and I'm this this one matches it, and I'm
only wrestling one match in a week, You're gonna have
a better match because you're so focused on. And that's
what I think a lot of people, Oh, you're you know,
why is it? You know, like this and it's like,
because number one, everyone's learned from the past, and everyone's
got access because before, like the study, you'd have to

(46:25):
go and get a videotapes. Now it's like you push
a button on your computer and you can watch any
great match and it's like I want to And if
you're a thinking wrestler, you can learn from that match,
even if it's like, well I didn't like it, but
there's always something to learn. And the more you learn
and the less you wrestle and you can focus on
individual matches, the better your matches are gonna be. And
that's that's the environment of today's wrestling. And some people

(46:48):
like I don't think that they really get that. It's like,
it's natural evolution. It's not. It's not. It's not a
knock on the past. Some people like take this as
some knock on the past, and it's it's not. It's
natural evolution is going to bring this in. It's it's
you know again, I don't know this year is going
to be like last year, and I don't think it will.
But but ten years from now it's gonna be the

(47:09):
same thing. These guys are gonna be doing athletic stuff.
That we can't even conceive of. And they're gonna be
telling stories, which a lot of people like, oh, they
don't tell stories, and it's like, yeah, they do, they do.
It's different stories, you know, and and because it's different fans.
But yeah, they're gonna these guys, the guys that are
starting out now that are watching these guys now, they're
gonna be way better than the guys now. That's just

(47:30):
that's just how it's gonna be.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Does it concern you though some of these matches we
see that just it's spots and these guys you know,
jumping off you know one story, I mean, you know,
doing it flip.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Oh I I you know. The bad side of what
I just said is I just watched the match last
night that was a phenomenal match with Kotobushi and tetsu Unito,
and I was just so concerned with the the they
the damage these guys are doing to their next I
really worry about hidden. Yeah. No, no, that's absolutely part
of that thing that that that mentality is is what

(48:01):
you can do great athletic stuff that's safe or minimal risk.
I mean there's always risk, but some stuff, to me,
there's some moves where you're letting you know, you're taking
really bad falls right on your neck. I get scared
about that because you know, look at how many guys
have had neck surgeries and things like that, and you
do want to have long careers. So yes, I am

(48:21):
absolutely concerned about you know, the guys tay who take
it too far. And then like the spots, you know,
that depends on the audience. You know, if you're doing spots, spot, spot,
and and it's not registering with the audience, then you're
doing it wrong. If it is, then you're doing it.
Then you're doing it right. And it's what the audience wants.
And in the end, it's the style that you know,
the audience just you know, the audience likes are going

(48:43):
to determine a lot of the style as well, because
if you're wrestling, you're going in the ring and you're
doing something, and if people aren't reacting, you're probably gonna
throw that at your repertoire. If the people are going crazy,
you're probably going to do it the next ten nights
you wrestle.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Well, it's it's amazing to see and I love seeing
the you know, the great matches, but also, like you said,
you got to tell story too.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
Well, that's the main that's that's that's the main thing.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. How much is MMA part of your
life too?

Speaker 1 (49:07):
I know that that's something else that You've also done
a lot of covering these different organizations.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
How much does that can take?

Speaker 3 (49:16):
I started that from I started that from day one
in ninety three, and I'm actually the longest American MMA
reporter because i started long before any of these guys.
But because of wrestling, MMA is very you know, a
couple of years back, I kind of tread them as equal,
especially when MMA was really really hot, and also it
was hot with the wrestling audience when Listener was there

(49:38):
and things like that. Now it's I mean, wrestling is
definitely number one priority. But I watch every UFC, I
still write for MMA fighting, I still cover the business
of MMA price close as anybody. So yeah, I mean
MMA is definitely a big part of my life.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
Yes, all right, So how can folks if they want
to get up on the latest of what's happening in
the world of the professional wrestling, how can they do
that today?

Speaker 3 (50:04):
Just go to www. Dot wrestling observer dot com and
we do. We have a service. We have podcasts, tons
of podcasts. You know. It's a subscription model, and we
get we have two newsletters that come out, actually three
newsletters that come out a week. We have a Monday newsletter,
which is actually a history newsletter from seventeen eighteen years ago.

(50:25):
You can see exactly what happened then and how it
went down. And then there's a Figure four weekly, which
we still do. And then the Observer, which comes out
every wednes late lately Wednesday night, so basically for most
people Thursday morning, and it covers everything that's gone on
in the week. We mix history with current stuff, wet
match reviews, we've got news, we've got business, and there's

(50:47):
never you know, I'm always editing it down. I'm never
editing it up. There's always too much in a week.
I'll tell you that. But you know that's the nature
of the Beast right.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
Now, still doing one hundred hour weeks, I bet pretty
pretty nice.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Well, Dave, thank you so much. I know you're busy.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Thanks for taking the time out, and I'm glad that
we've got a chance to catch up.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Am I going to see you in Vegas at Starcast?
You're going to go to this one?

Speaker 3 (51:10):
I'm going to be at Starcast. Yeah, it's a great scene.
I saw you at walle Mania. Yeah, we were just
me and my friend were just talking about we saw
you a year ago at wallle Mania, and walla Mania
is coming up again this year, so that's where. Yeah,
it was really cool.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
Well and I will see you in Vegas too, so awesome.

Speaker 3 (51:26):
Cool. It was really great talking to you.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
All right, Dave, see you soon. Take care of my friend.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
Okay, you take care too.