Raven on Hulk Hogan’s Backstage Power in WCW and the WCW Video Game Cover Story

Former WCW and ECW star Raven opens up about his real-life experiences working with Hulk Hogan in WCW, including how Hogan treated him behind the scenes during one of the most chaotic eras in company history. Raven also explains how and why he unexpectedly landed on the cover of a WCW video game, breaking down the politics, timing, and star power involved.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Let your safe yesty Chattle Time and Wrestling History Chattle.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome back to the Wrestling History Channel. I'm Steve Fall
and on today's edition, I'm gonna give you a classic
interview with one of your favorite wrestlers.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Enjoy.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Though you were uh Scotty Flamingo in WCW as an
active wrestler, you won championships, but then you come into
the WWE as a manager. How was that transition and
why did you come in as a manager versus a wrestler?

Speaker 3 (00:43):
This on my size. I was two twenty at the time,
and two twenty was tiny for WWF back then. So yeah,
they made me a manager, and uh, and I knew
I was never I knew I would. I'd hang on
to the job for a little while, but I wasn't
gonna hang on to it because I didn't want to
be a manager, you know, and forget I could turn

(01:04):
it into being a wrestler. But but I also knew
I had to leave to come back. So it as
a matter of you know, creating a character and then
coming back with this, you know, started something new and.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
You know, yeah, the Raven character is such an iconic
character though, But when you were in the WWE, though,
as you also worked in the office, Am I correct?
What were you doing?

Speaker 3 (01:28):
I was an associate producer of Monday Night Raw, and
I wrote the programming for not the not the Computer program,
But I wrote the programs. I wrote the shows for
All America and Mania.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Oh wow, okay, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
I can run TV shows. Yeah, so I formatted them
and just wrote the you know, with matches this and
blah blah.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Did you have that experience beforehand at w CW.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
No what Vinish saw how clever I was in the
uh because I was doing commentary with him as well
on Superstars, which was their main show. Un told Raw
and uh yeah, and so yeah I did. Uh. He
thought that write potential, but he didn't realize that, you know,
like he wanted me to be. He's growing me for

(02:15):
the booking committee. But I didn't want to be a
you know, a booker, not back then because I didn't.
I didn't want to, Uh, I want to. I wouldn't
want to get out of the ring, you know. Yeah,
and that's why I wouldn't say. Eventually I was they
eventually Evince goes. You know, I'm getting a disconnect between
Johnny Polo and you and I go, yeah, it was
never me. I thought, you know, you're Shane McMahon. Should

(02:37):
have been Johnny Polo. You know, I never should have
been you know. But uh well, once you took me
off TV and would just keep me as a producer,
that's when I said, yeah, I gotta, I gotta get
out of here.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Interesting you bring up a Sean McMahon because I've heard
stories that you two would party together, and is this
is this true?

Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yeah? We were. Yeah, I'd have late like we'd be
out of late at night. He calls dad telling me
he's coming home late. You know, he's going to you know,
he's staying in my house and got me so much cheat.
The boy thought I was sucking up to Shane. Bro
was due. All did was bury me, you know with
the Vince you know, because nobody was to their son
out all night.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, we wrestlers as well. It's so before the partying
with San McMahon, what was relationship like with Vince McMahon,
and then what was it like after the situation of
you hang out with Shane.

Speaker 3 (03:35):
We mean, Vince, we got along. I mean, you know
it wasn't you know in the Rite home about I mean,
you know.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Just normal every day. He's you're your boss, you're the employee.
He's not treating you any different from before and after.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
After he treated me probably a little different. I don't know,
I don't remember. It's a long time because nineteen ninety three,
well yeah, time ago.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
But you know, these are the stories that people would
like to be known about, because again.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
But I don't want to talk about those stories because
you know, between Sue and the company and you know,
WW and counter shoots and stuff, I'm really not allowed
to talk about them anyway.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
So oh, okay, Well it's one final question about that
situation then, is did you actually have a when you
were leaving the WWE, did you have an exit interview
with Vincic Mann?

Speaker 3 (04:29):
Yeah? I guess so.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Is that a common Is that a common thing in
in professional wrestling? Exit interviews?

Speaker 3 (04:35):
No? Because I was I was an office employee, okay,
I was under an office contract.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Okay, yeah, because it was always bizarre and I read
that was like.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
I don't think, but I don't know. I don't know
for sure because I don't remember, you know, I mean,
I think and I'm not sure what it exactly an
exit interview consystem, you know, other than hi and goodbye.
I mean, you know, like because I never had a
real job, you know, so I just don't know what
an exit interview is supposed to Like, is it supposed
to take an hour? Is supposed to take ten minutes?
Is it just saying thanks for serving your services? I

(05:05):
mean so, you know, So besides being a long time ago,
it's also I'm not exactly sure what constitutes an exit interview.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, did you get benefits while you were also an
office employee? Did ever wrestlers know of this?

Speaker 3 (05:21):
Maybe?

Speaker 2 (05:22):
I imagine they wouldn't be too happy because obviously as
years have gone on and there's always been talks of unions, insurance,
health insurance and to all that stuff. But you're getting
it while you're also on the road as a performer.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah, but I was only on the road you know
for TVs and stuff mostly and somehow show runs like
local you know, you know, within three hour drive, household,
house show runs. Mostly I was in the office, you
know during the week.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
Man. You know, It's funny though, because when you leave
the WWE suddenly we get introduced to the raven character.
And where did this come from? Because again we saw
Scotty Flamingo, We've seen Johnny Polo. How did you reinvent
yourself and why did you want to do this?

Speaker 3 (06:04):
I stopping at DDP one day, and I was complaining
about the lack of usage of chicken ship heels in
the business. You know, like you know Scotty the body,
you know Scotty's wingo, you know that was this great
chicken ship heel, and and uh, nobody goes, Page goes DP.
He goes, nobody's buying them because you know you're gonna
have to be a tough guy. I go, yeah, but

(06:24):
everybody's a tough guy. It's time it doesn't because that's
what you got to do. He goes, you know, he goes,
you ought to go alternative, you know, like you you
look because I I dressed like in real life, like
I like I did. It's raven. So he's like, you know,
you ought to uh alternative like the red hot chili
peppery guys looked in that point break movie. And so
I took that that that that that snippet, and I

(06:47):
decided to make it a tough guy. But I've put
all the unique uh style to it because I didn't
want to just be your regular old tough guy, you
know what I mean. I wanted to be, you know,
an interest. I wanted to be a three dimensional care
there like nobody had done before, you know, where the
where you could tell where, like the character had a

(07:08):
certain behavioral patterns, and you would know what he would
do in certain situations. You know what I mean, that
you would understand him, want to that you could understand
him on a deeper level, you know, and you could
see his point of view even if he didn't agree
with it.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, it was. It was brilliant. And again again the
the idea of involving DDP. He talks to you about
this alternative to the world because e c W really was.
I guess I don't paul him a set like a
million times like the grunge of Because we had uh
tax evasion wrestlers, we had Indians, we had cowboys, we

(07:41):
had all these people, and here comes Raven who is
to a lot of us real, this person we can
talk to, relate to and understand.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
Right, And that's what I wanted. I wanted to. I
wanted to, you know, but I wanted you to understand
me and relate to But then be appalled that the
direction I would take with it, you know, And that's
why there was always a ten percent of fans that
we're going to cheering no matter what. But I tried
to eliminate that ten percent because you know, you don't

(08:11):
true here. I'm one of the only people in the
business that I know that they really enjoyed being a heel.
They wanted to be a heel. Most people want to
be a heel, so they don't get boot as a
bit as a babyface, or they want to be you know,
at least back in the day, they would want to
be a babyface. I mean a heel loose cheered, you know,
which is the easiest thing to be. You know, it's

(08:31):
easy to be a heel, and it's cheered being a
heel who's hated, you know, with the way people are
in the world, it's difficult, you know, to be truly
hated and they can keep making fans they get this
is what happens.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
Is is.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
When you become talented at a certain point, people recognize
your talent and they see that, wow, his talent should
be rewarded by us cheering in. But you don't want
but a true heel doesn't want to be cheered for
being a warriing. You have to find ways to show
your ass, like to show how despicable you really are.
You know. That's why I like when when fans started

(09:07):
to like me, I took Stan may AND's wife, and
then I took his kid, you know, and uh, whereas
so you couldn't like me, you know, so no matter
how much you could break it down, it was almost
impossible to like Raven, which is like, my great one
of my greatest compliments I ever got is with Simon
Diamond said that all his friends go up to me.
Came up to him and said, you know, he goes

(09:28):
Raven really as bigger asshole as he seems on TV.
I was like, and he's like, uh, and I'm like,
and he did it kind of like, you know, he
kind of like, I don't know if you're gonna like this.
I'm like, no, that's that's brilliant, that's great. That's what
I want people to think. I want them to think
I'm the character, you know, because Piper taught me a
long time ago that it's as long as they believe
in your character, it doesn't matter what else happens on

(09:49):
the show as long as they believe in your character,
you know, And so Piper was always no matter what
happened to any other match, you knew Piper's. You know,
Piper's was as close that you came to thinking it
was real, you know what I mean? And I think
I I think I did as well as the job
as could be done. That that you know that a
truly hated Dreamer and then and then and the reasons

(10:11):
why and then, but the the the despicableness of what
I would do to him. You know, it's it takes work,
you know, it takes a lot of It takes a
lot of effort to be hated. You know. It's easy
to get cheered. It's easy to get cheered if you're
a heel, and it's easy to get food of your

(10:32):
baby face. But it's easy to be liked, and it's
easy to be disliked. But to be hated and loved,
that's the that's the goal you want to be and
and to me, I even want to be. I wanted
to be hated more than my opponent was loved, Like
I wanted them to chant fuck Raven, Fuck you Raven
more than I wanted to chant go Tommy go. Now,

(10:53):
I would never I would never stack the deck to
make it like that. You know, I would never shut
up spots, you know. I mean so that I would
never set up the match in a way that they
would they would hurt him at all, you know. I mean,
I would never do anything negative to my partner. But
I wanted the people to hate me more than they
love Tim, you.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
Know, yeah, of course.

Speaker 3 (11:15):
And uh, and so that was a you know, but
that that's a that's an art form. It's wrestling is
an art form, you know, it really is when it's
done right. But like, I don't watch it now. I
haven't watched it in years. I stopped watching back when
he had the Alliance angle, when they when they brought
in w CW and e CW guys and all that,

(11:36):
and uh, they pushed nobody and it just just I
got so disenchanted with the business. But I stopped watching it,
and I never started watching it again. You know, I
think I think I had seen it, done it done,
had been a part of some of the best angles
in wrestling, and uh, and saw you know, watch them
and and I just you know, plus I'm a completeist,

(11:58):
So like get if I watch. If I watched Raw,
I have to watch Raw, I have to watch SmackDown,
I'd have to watch I had to watch everything, and
I just there's too much, you know, there's too much
on TV to watch. And you know, I didn't. I
didn't have enough time in the day to watch all
the wrestling shows, and so I just never went back.
You know. It's so it's funny because people always ask me.
You're like, you know, don't you watch it anymore? And

(12:20):
you know, and a lot of guys, a lot of
old timers say, oh, I don't watch it anymore, you know,
and they're just but they do. They just don't want
to admit to it, you know, because they don't want to. Well,
for whatever reason, I don't have any problem admitting it.
If I did, I just don't.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
You know, there's a lot of wrestling out there.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
So it's also it's also a little heartbreaking because I
never got to be the top guy to top company,
you know. So you know, so watching it brings a
little sadness to me. You know.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
So I don't know, Well, I think today we're gonna
change some people's perspectives because I think the Raven saying
man and his family storyline is one of the greatest
storylines ever. And I've always wondered why in other companies
they never used children that I feel like, if you're
gonna have a performance in talent they had they had

(13:13):
like Dominic Mysterial for a brief moment with Ray and
Eddie Guerrero years ago, but with you in Samman and
his and his children. Look, how did this come together?
How do you convince someone to allow their real family
to come onto television and abandon them on TV? Because
I'm guessing it's hard for a wife and kid to
go to school.

Speaker 3 (13:32):
Well, Sandman, he is, he's his wife missus ballet originally,
you know, and so it wasn't hard to get hurt
in the act, you know. And uh, and then I
think it was his idea or Paul's idea, but but uh,
we didn't need to hire an actor because Sarah's kid
was you know, Tyler wanted to do it. You know,

(13:53):
the kid was great and never missed this too, always
nailed his lines. It's brilliant. You know, like if we advice,
if I stumbled over my gverbiage and changed it a
little bit, you know, I changed the outword to him,
you know, so you know, quille him like i'd say something,
I'll say this, this and this, and then that'll be
your cue. And if I'm screwed it up or I
said the wrong thing, or I said the said that,

(14:16):
you know, misphrased it, he still knew it was his
queue and he would nail his line. It was amazing.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, that is one of the greatest storylines I think.

Speaker 3 (14:26):
Ever in all aside.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, no, I go, hey man, I wouldn't. Everyone's got
a tough th on horn sometimes. And I think that
storyline rate there is one of the best ones going.
And then of course you and Tommy Dreamer connected the
hip for the rest of time. I feel like with
the idea of good guy versus bad guy to total opposites,
but yet they somehow have a connection to each other.
And where did that come from? Where did this begin?

(14:51):
And how do you feel about always being connected? Tommy
dream if the rest of your life.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
Well, gravity, you know, because you're so fat, Gravity keeps
just connected anyway.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
But Tommy, oh oh no, Tommy.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Paulie wanted me to bring it. He's gonna bring me
in for three months to get Tommy over because I
was hoping to go back to w W with my character,
you know, and and so uh it brought me in.
And then then he thought he didn't have any idea
with the character, like like I don't know what the
character was, but he thought it was gonna be just like,

(15:31):
you know, like a comedy version of what the raving character,
you know, like because nobody had seen it. So when
then once he saw what I was doing, he completely
identified with it. And and I became like bookers always
see wrestling through sus see themselves through certain characters eyes,
like Ben sees himself through uh Lex Luger to Patriot,

(15:54):
you know, bodybuilder Patriot and also the million Dollar Man,
you know, that's who. That's two of the people that
vince what I'm saying. But I'll tell you that I'm sure.
But uh, Paul, he saw himself through Raven and Dreamer,
you know, and uh and so like he actually had
a better I didn't realize how much how much depth

(16:14):
I was gonna mind of the character of my own
personal stuff, my own baggage. And he understood the character.
I think even before I did as much like I
didn't understand I thought I was, you know, like I
didn't realize what I was doing with the character at first,
Like I mean, I knew what I mean, I knew
what I was doing, but I didn't realize where I
was gonna take it. And he saw he already saw

(16:37):
like the you rode ahead more than I did in
the beginning, you know what I mean, before I realized
all the things I could do with it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
He Paul Heyman always seems to have this history of
finding something in someone and pulling it out even more
than you thought that was there. Though. You're connected to
so many things in ECW, but one of the biggest
ones is the Crucifixion, and that involves kred Angle about
to do some things at the ECW. He decides to

(17:08):
leave after seeing this. You're forced to apologize on ECW
television for this angle.

Speaker 3 (17:15):
Okay, here's here's the problem with apologize. First of all, okay,
here I play the cut of the pro and the
con and the devil devcadomy. So the pro of making
me apologize was because I'm ju I'm of a Jewish
descent polyes of Jewish sent Gordon's of Jewish descent. People

(17:35):
who were offended they thought it could be you know,
a slander on Christianity. So from that perspective, that's the
pro reason to apologize. The con reason did not apologize
is you're the extreme promotion. You don't apologize for anything.
You know, you're the extreme promotion if you if you
go over the line, you eat the consequences, but you

(17:55):
don't apologize for it. So that's the con. Then what
I say is either way, you'd never apologize because of
what I said. Because of the con you never apologize
because you don't want to apologize. And also it wasn't necessary.
It wasn't it was. It got the right reaction. They

(18:17):
are people in the back thought that had the wrong reaction,
but it didn't. It got the perfect reactions. I'm in
the center of the ring. I know where I know
where the sound is or the lack of sound, because
that's what it was. It was like, whoa, you know
what I mean, And that's the right reaction, completely right reaction.
The people shit on my apology, you know, and you
know because and also I gave the most sincere, insincere

(18:40):
apology I could because poly said make it as sincere
as you can, so I made it as sincerely insincere
as possible, because Raven wouldn't make a sincere you know, apology,
make a sincere and a sincerely insincere one. But the
but the people didn't like the apology, I mean, and
that's why, you know, it's like they also the pro

(19:01):
was also they wanted to a peace Kurt angle, but
he was never because he had never seen pro wrestling before.
This is the first time he's ever been to an
actual matchup scene it on TV, you know, so he's
watching the arena. They're trying to get him to be
a commentator, not even a wrestler. And it's amazing how
our talented he became. You know, it's such a short
time too, but you know, it's not watching it and

(19:22):
being appalled by it, and so he was appallable. We're
never gonna get join the company anyway, you know, so
all at all. I mean, it was the wrong thing
to do, was the apology, But I understand why, so
I guess that's what the pros and the cons are.
It was the wrong thing, but it was the I

(19:42):
can understand why they made me do it.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
Now here's a question for you, is is the reason
why it's brought up? So I brought up too. But
is the reason why so many people have brought up
over the years. It's because what Kridgle became. So if
Kerdingle did not become a world champion, the w and
did so well and all that wouldn't even matter that
a random Olympian decided not to join up with e W.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
I would have still the apology. People still would ask
about the apology, but it would happen, it wouldn't have
the legs it's had. They would they would say why,
you know, why would you apologize? And that, and the
story would change to because of the Jewish thing, you know,
and because though you know, like well when Kurt Angle
said something and Taz jumped in the bandwagon and a

(20:24):
couple other guys, you know, you know, I think I
think most people didn't realize that it wasn't I wasn't
making fun of religion. I was. I was using it
as a as a metaphor, you know, I was using
it as as I cannot because it's so I kind

(20:44):
of graphic is you know, is the cross? You know,
it's it's an icon and it stands for you know,
for I wanted people to feel I wanted Sandman to
feel my pain, to feel what to be a martyr for?
Because a Raven, it's a martyr for society's dysfunction. That's
the way he feels. He feels he's up on a cross.
There's a martyr for society's dysfunction, and he wanted Sandman

(21:07):
to feel his pain. You know.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
So you know, now, how did you how did you
feel about? Now here's a flashboard, how did you feel
about when the Undertaker had an Undertaker symbol not a cross,
and then put Steve Austin on it And I was like,
this is the same thing set they're calling it and
Taker's cross or symbol versus located.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
Okay, Yeah, I mean I don't get mad because you know,
I've stolen ship from other people, you know what I mean.
You know, everybody steals shit. You know, nobody's a complete
original product. And his originals Raven is there's there's parts
of parts of Jake robertson him. There's parts of you know,
Kevin Sullivan, there's parts of you know, I I took

(21:49):
and made it my own thing. You know. It's like
it's like one time when I was Scotty Umingo, I
was Michael Hayes was my hero, like Michael Hayes and
Jake Robertson like my two biggest heroes, and you know,
for different obviously for different reasons. But but Hayes was
such a great talker and uh and so anyway, so
I walk into a club and love I lived in

(22:10):
Atlanta at the time, as I do now, and went
to a club and Hayes was there. Michael Hayes was there,
and and I go to my room and I goes, shit,
I got to go. I gotta go introduce myself. I
don't want to say hi. But then I'm like, I
don't want to just sound like a dumb mark and
just go I'm, you know, a big schmuck for you,
you know what I mean. And while I'm debating how
to approach him, his wife comes up to me and says,

(22:31):
my husband would like to talk to you. He's Michael Hayes.
And I'm like, oh shit. So I go over there
and he goes, I want to tell you. Because he goes,
I'm such a big fan of yours. And his wife goes, oh,
this is the reason we have to watch Global Wrestling
every day at four o'clock. And she's He's like yeah,
And I'm like, oh man, what a compliment, you know,
like my hero put me over, you know. And uh.

(22:52):
And then I said to him, I said, you know
that I stole some bits and pieces from me. I go,
I gotta hope you don't mind. He goes, and he
goes and he thought it was gonna be an insult.
He goes, I gotta be honest because I don't see it.
I go, No, that's great. That means that I've I've
I've made it my own, you know, I've taken I've
taken what I saw that I liked out of your act,
made it my own, put my own spin on it,

(23:14):
and made it look original, like I love to, like
I always do this, Like I loved when he would have,
like the guy in a chin lock, and all of
a sudden, he would like his eyes would dart like
he'd hurt somebody boom or something, and then they dart
the other way, and the hair with the long hair
going flying, and then he'd go back and forth and

(23:34):
his face would start going, oh, fuck it shit, you
know what I mean. The guy would start coming up
and the way he did it was just amazing, Like
it was just so dynamic and so you know, I
saw I basically gripped that all wholesale. But he's obviously
he never saw me. He never recognized it in there,
So I apparently I put my own spin on it,
you know what I mean? But yeah, that guse. Everybody's gonna,

(23:56):
you know, do their own thing. My problem with the
wrestling is so many guys like put there to take
stuff from other people, but they take crappy stuff. Like
I don't get that. I don't get why you would
take crappy stuff from other people, you know, Like like I
was talking to somebody. I don't want to say his
name because of the insulting I've said in the past,

(24:19):
so you can look it up if you wanted to
pick it up that badly. But the I asked him
what he thought of his match, He goes, it was okay.
I go, well, what about like, you know, you like
your spots because they were okay? I go, then why'd
you do them? He goes, well, I saw this guy
do him and so I you know, So, I go,
did you like it when he did? It? Is? No,
not really, I goes, then why are you doing it?

(24:41):
I go, why would you steal spots, and you weren't
even enamored of He's like, yeah, you're right, you know,
but it's like wrestlers are sheep. You know, they do
what they see.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
You know, that is true. There's a lot of comparisons
over the airs. You know, nature boy, Buddy Rogers, nature
boybrick Flair. You know that's it happens over the time.
It doesn't matter who you are.

Speaker 3 (25:02):
But then, but then there's a great example of three
guys who did their own spin on it and got
over like a son of a bitch, you know what
I mean. Yeah, And I was like a motherfucker doing
the same nickname, same kind of basic, same basic premise,
you know, to the act. But it's all how you
put your own spin on it right.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
For years, I would hear that, you know, Bray White
people reminded him of you and Jake Roberts and Kevin
Sullivan because of just a slight similarities. But you couldn't
obviously pinpoint which ones they were because of.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
Actually it was mostly Danny Spivey, wasn't it.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
Oh Well, Whalen Whalen Mercy I believe was his. There
was some there too.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
That's his father's uh, one of his father's friends or
I mean.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Partners or but then that character was kind of based
off of Robert de Niro's character from one of his moves.
So it's like boom, boom boom. We're all taking a
little bit here and there here. Yeah, Kate fier I
was like, what's the name of the movie.

Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, he did. He did a great spin on it.
It's a shame his body was so broke. Spivey's body
was so broken down by that time that he couldn't
work like he used to, you know, in just years
of Japan beat him up.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
I love uh, I love me some Wala mercy.

Speaker 3 (26:13):
That's great.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
It was so great, you know it was. It was
a lot scary when you're watching cherry.

Speaker 3 (26:18):
Guy know Wayian shirt. I mean, that's that's impressive to
be a scary guy in a Hawaiian shirt.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
We could ask for more.

Speaker 3 (26:26):
You know. It's interesting, you know, you know it's funny.
Is remember the Skinner character?

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yeah, So Steve Kerran was a great worker, like I mean,
a fantastic I mean, I'm the unbelievable worker, you know,
and attack team specialists and all that, but he could
really work, you know, like chain wrestling, all kinds of
wrestling or whatever. But then he decided, you know, I've
talked him about it, decided when he became Skinner, and
Skinner would have no idea how to wrestle. And that's

(26:53):
why his matches looked like a guy who wasn't a
worker at all. I mean, like, how how how amazing
is that that he knew that the boys were gonna
say he can't work, you know, like the young guys
would come up and be like Skinner, where he was
a terrible worker. Was supposed to be. He wasn't supposed
to be a worker. It was supposed to be you know,
just a wild man, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
He skinned out. He attacked alligators and he skinned him.
You know that he had a he had a claw.
He had stab you with him and he'd spit black
good in your face. It was great, you know. E c.
W is known for so many things, great wrestling, hardcore wrestling.
Unfortunately also backstage drug use.

Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah well if you passed the drug test, you were fired.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
Okay, so avenger of you. TODH Gordon like a million
times now about his book, but he brought up about
it a couple of times where it was pretty much, hey,
this is gonna happen. If you're coming to ECW, understand
this is the locker room. What was that situation like
because to somebody going out there, is everyone a little
on something while wrestling each other?

Speaker 3 (27:52):
Yeah, when everybody always is on a little something, I
would say that was much deeper than just our company,
you know, it was just both companies. It was all
three companies, you know. But I mean it's a matter.
It's it's a matter of taking drugs and then being
able to handle the amount you take in the ring,
you know what I mean. Yeah, And most people just

(28:13):
took pain pills because you know, it was like an armor,
you know, it felt like you were it felt like shielding.
To me, it felt like in like wearing a suit
of armor.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
You know, Like was there like more to someone because
like I interviewed Rovan Dan before and I was like,
when you'd go out there high with people who upset
with you? And he's like, well, it depends what you
consider being high, And I was like what it? And
I was like, Okay, each person has a different intolerance
to what they're taking. So was there ever an issue
with someone going out to the ring on too much
of something and you're like, dude, like we're all doing this,

(28:44):
I understand, but like you went out and you're you're
you're a mess, like you almost drop me on my head.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
Yeah, Sandman would be sometimes once in a blue moon,
end up like that and people would get mad about it,
you know what I mean. Yeah, but you know, but
for the most part, you know it, people could you know,
knew their limits, you know what I mean. And uh,
and it became more of a became more of a

(29:09):
boast than anything. You know that we're all drugies, you know,
we're all proud of it, you know what I mean.
It was just really stupid. But you know I'm I'm
as guilty of it as anybody, but more so than most.
But but yeah, but you know, like like to me,

(29:31):
I would never go out there and drunk off my ass,
you know, where I couldn't. I would never go out
the where I couldn't function. You know, I don't, like,
I don't. I never used to let myself get like
that anyway. It was rare that I'd ever get to
the point where I was like you know that it
almost never happened, you know, I mean, I just you know,
I could handle my drugs. Yeah. Well unfortunately I was
proud of that. And so it was like something I

(29:52):
did more and more of because I was I could
handle you know, I could tolerate a ship ton of
tolerate a ship ship high tolerance, and and so it
was being insecure, you know, like I was always known
as as somebody who's egotistical, but because I was so
insecure as a kid, you know what I mean, and
as an adult and uh so here I found something
I was good at. So I you know, I used

(30:15):
it to the ninth level. Like my addiction doctor he said,
he goes, you may not be because you may not
be in a complete addict, because you may not be
an actually officially an addict. But I've never seen anybody
abuse drugs as bad as you.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
That was the person supplying you with drugs.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
Like that was like I done, my doctor trying to
get me clean.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Oh you're really okay. I was gonna say, is this
a different what's what?

Speaker 3 (30:40):
When we know the guy getting cleaned, the guy you know,
were getting detoks and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
So was that Obviously drugs are a common thing in wrestling,
and you're saying it wasn't just E c W. You're
saying all locker rooms during that time had an issue,
and obviously some management just turned the whe I to it.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
I think, I don't think, you know, I think somebody
would get todd, would be so fucked up they couldn't function,
and the boys would point them out, and the and
the agents would come and they would take their you know,
and they get get rid of their match. You know
what I mean?

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
You wouldn't let somebody go out like that. The boys police,
it'll lot themselves, you know what I mean. And a
lot of this is also this is also twenty years ago,
you know what I mean, this twenty four years ago,
twenty five so stuff that I remembered, like like it
was like like yesterday was a long time ago, you
know what I mean, Like I remember shit, I remember shit.

(31:43):
It stands out. But after fifty nine years, fifty nine
years old, I only got so much space for so
much knowledge, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yes, I uh, A lot of memories.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
Just get tossed off to the side, and then somebody
will bring them up and I'm like, oh, yeah, I
remember that, you know what I mean or I'll be like,
oh no, I don't remember that, you know.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, and obviously no one knew about checking chair shots
clean to the skull. Uh. You know, then everyone thought, oh,
I can take put your head out for it, versus
now you're like no, no, no, because we know the consequences.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
And then go.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Heading into e CW's first paper of view, Barely Legal.
You're the champion. Did you know? Did anyone know you
were leaving like immediately after that to go to w CW.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, No, No, it wasn't the first
paper view? Was it?

Speaker 2 (32:37):
ECW? Barely Legal is the first?

Speaker 3 (32:40):
Uh? It wasn't. It wasn't. The first paper view was
eaven after it was the.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
You left out the second one.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
I left after something, But it wasn't the first one
because that was my match with Funk when Funk beat
me for the title.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yes, with the with it like the time was running
out and the paper of view time was running out
and the power was about to go. Everything that could
go wrong was about to happen, but luckily you lost
to Terry Funk. After that, it just gets a great
eventge I.

Speaker 3 (33:04):
The time I timed the right down to the you know,
the last minute.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
You know, it's brilliant again.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
You know, I only was freaking out in the back.
The foot that the doctor we add at the show
was a was a foot doctor because I had gallop
from excessive drinking. And uh. Then we became really good
friends and became my roommate, and then they needed a
doctor at ringside at all time, so he became the doctor.
And so he's in the back and Paulie's like, you

(33:30):
gotta go now. He goes, Paulie, it's not my spot yet.
He goes, you gotta go. We're gonna run out of time,
and he's like, don't worry, Raven's got it. And he because,
like you know, from sitting there, he knew and he
knew he understood wrestling really well from listening, you know,
to me talk about it all the time. And he's like,
so he's like, Paulie, paul It's like, but you gotta
go because I can't go as much. There's no reasons

(33:51):
for me to go. Yeah, they had paula funk hadn't
been split open yet, you know. So he go out
there and then checks him out and then he starts
it or something like that. I think said suposed to happen,
And and he got PAULI his blah and and Mark
he's that's his name, Mark, Mark. I won't give his
last name. Mark. He's a I called him the quack.
That's my nig name Fortant because you know he's a doctor.

(34:12):
He's a quack, right, so he uh and he's a
foot doctor. And he goes, he goes, PAULI goes bare,
he goes. Paulie relax, I saved lives. He created that.
He lives a foot doctor.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, he was saving your foot, Raven, he was gonna save.

Speaker 3 (34:33):
He actually wasn't an emergency room doctor. He still love it,
he said when people come like a knife in their foot,
you know, and stuff like that. But uh but yeah,
he's like he's like paul he relaxed, falling, I saved lives.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
I love it so much. So then after the Mark quack,
the doc and involvement with that, you do go to
w c W and honestly, and he right after that,
well not right after that, but eventually you go. Eventually
go to w c W and And this is where
I feel like if you watched them at the time,
it was huge nw OO and sting and all this stuff.

(35:07):
You came in and you're treated as a huge get
by w CW, like a huge superstar coming in like
a huge talent. What does that feel like? Because you
come on in and suddenly it feels like a red
carpet is given to you, like you're given all this.
You have your own stable, the flock. They're trying to
get you to sign a contract. You won't do it.

(35:28):
Raven's rules, all this extra stuff is there pressure from
Hult Cogan and other talents like that looking at you,
going you know, I don't like how this guy's getting
TV time.

Speaker 3 (35:38):
If there was, I didn't know about it, but I
don't think there was. I don't think it was that
big A looked at it that big a deal because
to the fans it look like a big deal. But
to the to the to the writers, it was just
another unique way to bring in the talent. You know
what I mean, It wasn't, you know, because I wasn't
given there, I wasn't given their rocket up. I asked,
you know what I mean? The uh you know, I

(36:00):
was always allowed to face people in my lane, you
know what I mean, at the same level as me.
But I wasn't allowed to go up a level, you know.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah, so what was your relationship like with hul Kogan
then Wiland ws w HI and by all, oh that's
nothing else.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
He had his own locker room, you know, so he
would you know, he would give sometimes walk through our
locker room and you know, you say ay and by
you know, he's a nice guy. I mean every time
I've ever talked with him, he's a nice guy. But
you know he has his you know, his own agendas,
you know what I mean, and stuff.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
You know, Yeah, well you're on the cover.

Speaker 3 (36:36):
I don't have a problem with it, you know, I
don't know. I don't even I guess he was known
for people you say had him for nepotism. No, I
never had a problem with that. I mean, I think
you should get your friend's jobs. I think that's what
that's a friends are four to help you get jobs.
But I think that's not the only thing. Therefore, what
I mean, but that's part of being a friend, as
you help your friends out, you know. But I think
he should only give him a spot that they are

(36:57):
capable of handling, you know, Like I don't think he
should push and to the moon if they can't handle
that kind of rocket, you know what I mean. So
I think sometimes got friends got pushed too far, too
far and too much. But I never had a problem
with nepotism, you know, or friendshiptism, you know, like you know,
I got people jobs. You know, I've helped out many

(37:17):
a friend, you know, with spots and stuff and jobs
and stuff.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
No, I agree, I agree. If you're in a power,
if you're in a place of power, help the people,
your friends or your family and get there. You know,
you don't think a mayor just hi or someone just
don't make them.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
Just don't. If you're the king, and you're and you
can elect you and you can point out people to
be on your council, just don't put people in your council.
You can put your friends in there, just don't put
people on there that have no knowledge or skill level
to be there, you know what I mean. Yeah, keep
them with god job and security, because.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
There's, unfortunately, is a pattern of people in power who
give friends jobs that definitely should not be in there.
Politicians or wrestlers, anything.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
A bad name.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
It's true, you won the US championship, though then you
lose it the next night to Goldberg. How you think
about that situation?

Speaker 3 (38:06):
That was heartbreaking because not not the belt so much,
but the fact that I thought I was going to
get a rocket up my ass and then I got
a and apparently with the rockos facing the wrong way.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
Yeah, I don't mean to laugh. That's a hilarious jokes.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
Good.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
I just want to make sure we're okay here, because.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
I also do stand up comedy and I haven't since
before the pandemic, but I also do stand up comedy.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Well, you're again, you're quick witted, you're smart. But that
night losing the Goldberg to me was like, Okay, I
know where we had the street going, but like, what's
what's the point of this?

Speaker 3 (38:46):
There really wasn't one, I guess, I mean to me.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
But you know you're on the cover though of the
ww video game. Again at the time that.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
That was also a fluke. That was because the guy
who created the game, I was one of his favorite wrestlers,
so he could be in the game. Yeah, and so
all the boys and the like, you know, the guys
he saying out with, like Jericho and Canyon and Conan
and then they disco we uh, You're like, how'd you
get in the game, well, who'd you blow? And I'm
like and I'm like, what do you mean? I'm I'm like,

(39:16):
they're like, one of these names is not like the other.
You got Hogan, Goldberg and Nash and you and it's
like that Sesame Street thing. One of these things is
not like the other. And I'm like, look, you know,
I have no idea. And I really had no idea
for the longest time until the guy who invented the
game came up and told me one day and I

(39:38):
ended up in a when I was in what was it? Oh? Yeah,
I ended up in a three pack of Austin and
Shane McMahon and me in a three pack of dog
Action figures in w W. After when I went to
w New York and I was like, that's a good
money spot or anything with Austin, you know, And uh,
They're like, I'm like, how that one? How that happened?

(40:00):
And the guy told me because I'm in charge of
putting it, so I put you in there, like, oh
that's nice.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Wow, see friends helping friends, well not friends, but fans,
you know, fans, acquaintances, things like that.

Speaker 3 (40:14):
I didn't know those. I didn't know either. Of those guys.
But but but I like that, you know what I mean, Like,
you know, it's kind of like when when it's somebody
like uh. For an example, like when Elton John Uh,
he hooked up Leon Russell, who was a nineteen seventies
guy god like the one hit like a one hit

(40:36):
wonder type guy, but was a really well respected musician,
and then he made an album with him, like you know,
of course this is fifteen ten or fifteen years ago,
but made an album with him, got him back into
limelight for a little while and made him some money,
you know, And that's always cool, you know when people
who who made it, or who get to a certain
who get to a certain position, and then they they

(40:59):
make the call back the people that they you know
that they were they were fans of you know what
I mean.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah, No, I think it's all the time.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
I would say A good example is like me doing podcasts.
When people hire me, you know, there's quite a bit
of these podcasts it's because they're fans of mine. But
I have no but there's really no reason to go
to me because I don't wrestle anymore hardly, you know,
I don't I don't push anything. I don't prase the limelight.

(41:29):
I'm not in it. I'm not you know, I'm kind
of off to the side, way off to the side.
But you know, but they're they're fans, you know, I
get that quite a bit. And I'm glad, you know,
I mean, I'm glad I made that kind of impact.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
You know again, I'm I'm a fan. And here we
are talking right now about your career and I'm having
a great day ship chatting along with you. One more
Christmas WCW then we'll go into your next run. Is
Is it true that Eric Bischoff said if anyone's not
happy here, get up and you can leave. And you

(42:07):
were like okay, And he just got up and actually was.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
He was directed to me. He goes Scott, if you're
not happy with the door, and he goes Raven. If
you're not happy with the door, you're not okay. The
first thing he says in the meeting is he goes
as he goes Scott, and I thought he was talking
about me, And he goes Scott Cunningham, our attorney or
something like that is here and uh and so something something,

(42:31):
and then he goes and Raven, if you're not happy
with the company. There's the door, and I go, Okay,
So I got up and left because I was really
I was really upset that I was like at a
level right below you know, there was there's a level
of the top ten who like you know, Flair, the
Big Show, DDP, Nash, all those Scott Hall and there's

(42:51):
like ten guys and then me, Jericho, Booker, t we
were just writing in Conan and we were right below
them and then everybody else. And and I really frustrated
me that I wasn't getting you know, movement up to
card you know what I mean. You know, it looked
like I was going to be stuck there. So I
was in So I said, yeah, So I figured I'd
go to New York. You know, they still if they
wanted me, I didn't have any heat, you know, if

(43:14):
my heat wasn't so overwhelming from before. And then they
said you can't go to New York. And I go,
I'll go to e c W, I guess. And then uh,
and then I didn't know. I didn't realize Paul, I
figured Eric I thought the ECW was going to really
do something there because they just signed a national deal
with TNN, which was became Spike, but I didn't realize

(43:35):
Pauli was burnt out. You know, he'd been doing it
for as million years at that point. You know, nobody
books that long without getting burnt out, you know, and
there was no in the talent that he had was
so it wasn't it wasn't like the original E c
W crew. It was it didn't have the uniqueness, the
star power. You know. I'd had rv D and Jerry

(43:56):
Lynn and that was about it. You know.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Yeah, it was a little It was a strange time
when TNN got ECW because I was so excited, but
then all you watch on Friday nights at least where
I was was Joey Style was talking about Roller Derby
being on after or before ECW. But yet you do
come to WW eventually and there's a WrestleMania matchress me
at seventeen you Big Show and Kane. This is part

(44:19):
of my tradition of every year when if I have
a wrestling marathon of matches WrestleMania, that one is on
with golf carts and broken glass and craziness. How is
this match put together? And by the way, how did
it feel to be run over by a golf cart.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
They had they set up certain spots for a company.
Did you know this Show and Cane were in it.
So they wanted me thrown through the glass windows. So
I was cool with that. They were like, uh, you
want to wear your jacket that way you don't get hurt.
And I'm like, no, I'm not wearing my jacket. I
go ware to go. It's protective. It's it's it's auto glass.
It breaks in little pieces, you know what I mean.

(44:56):
It doesn't break jagged edges, So no, I would look
to be honest, I wanted to take my shirt off
and have it, you know, bare skinned. But I couldn't
think of a reason to give my shirt off, you know,
because other than because then people say, oh, I stick
his shirt off for the spot, you know what I mean?
So that spot. Then they gave us to golf carts
that we were supposed to drive all the way around

(45:16):
the entire building once make an entire lap. But I
ran off the road because I went to bump into
the fence like his big show started choking me, like
he's on the back, and so I had it drive
like I'm being choked, and so I tried to bounce
off the fence, you know, like like an even bear back.
But as soon as I bounced it the fence, the

(45:39):
defence wasn't connected at the bottom, and the wheels just
dropped them to the below the ground, below the level
and uh. And so I couldn't drive anymore. And uh.
So I tried to pick up the thing and move it,
and shows like, no, just move on to the next spot.
So I'm like, I gotta do something. So I ran

(45:59):
out in the midd got run over by cane and
uh and I was fine, necessarily fine, and uh. But
it turns out the guy wondered the production guys after
the show told movie that I came within centimeters of
this cutting off the power to the whole show because
the tire when the wheel came off, a piece of
metal in the wheel, something in the in the wheels

(46:21):
set and uh and the axle, I guess something cut
the wire to the and it almost cut the wire
to this to the power of the whole show. Because
can you imagine that if I had killed the show
and it shot.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
Me rust me. The saving scene has gone down as
probably one of the grass with many of all time.
According to many different people, in the world, and it
never would have kept going because of the golf cart
that went off.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
Oh my, that I kill madam. So to this day,
I'm still disappointed because I wondered if I was supposed
to drive around the entire building with the show Chaser
had choken me and Kane chasing us in the other
golf cart. Well, we didn't get to do that, So
time to make up for it by getting run over.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
H I love it. It's again. If no one's ever
seen that match, you're dispointing, dispointed in you if you're
watching this interview right now, But if you haven't, go
back and watch it right now. It's so damn good.
Though hardcore division starts off hot kind of fizzles. What
were your thoughts on the Hardcore Division? Because you and
Rhino have great matches. You Jerry hit great matches. There

(47:25):
are some amazing hardcore championship matches, but then it becomes
like a joke at some point, I don't know where when,
But what did you feel about the division?

Speaker 3 (47:34):
I liked it. I liked it. It was twenty four
to seven and anywhere and all that. Like you know,
I was able to get my head stuck in the toilet,
you know, and flushed and am I it started sucking
my hair down. I was like, holy shit, pull my
hair out. But I did have that much suction, but
I'd love suction to pull it like I would have
been like a truck, like a if it would have

(47:56):
stayed like that. And uh, you know, we uh we
we tried to go over to creator. I love going
over the creative stuff. That's why I like that the
vision because I got the deuced I had more props,
so you know, you only have you know, a singles match,
you have two people in the ref. Tag match you
got four people in the ref, so you have more
people to created more spots with tag teams. That's why

(48:18):
tag matches, you know, should you know, when they're done,
rights should be, I should always be much better than
singles if they're set upright, you know what I mean,
There's more people to do stuff with, you know, at
least at least you know, on a on a match
it means nothing. You know, if if a match has
a stakes, then obviously the singles match is going to
mean more. But you know, but the tag match can

(48:39):
be can do so much like so much creative stuff.
You can do. And so with hardcore, I was able
to come up and use pots pans, you know, like,
but I would never try to use them just like
everybody else, did you know what I mean? Like that's
why I did the drop toll on the chairs. It
was unique, you know which I actually there's another thing
that I that I borrowed. Shane Douglas did it one
night against uh somebody I think it was against. Who

(49:03):
was it was? It was it? Uh one of the
pit bulls. No, I think it was. Who was it?
What's his name for a horseman? Guy? Uh? Tully Blanchard.
I think I think did it against I don't know.
It's thirty years so I don't know, but I think
that was. And after the matches like, that's amazing. What
a creative way using it because you can have it.

(49:24):
I go, really, you don't want it? He goes, no,
you can have it, Like, I'll take it. I'll take
that spot. I was, man, it was so creative because
why you know, and then like and then then the
creativity can take past that. Like I was working on
match with a J style and TNA AJ styles and
TNA and he and he was the the heel and

(49:44):
he goes. Listen, he goes, I'm not gonna do any
of my big spots. I don't want to. I don't
want to make you look bad, like you're not gonna
make me look bad. I go, I go to secret.
It's not who does the athletic stuff, and it's it's
the babyface just comes out on top set to set
up the spots. Right, So I set up a spot
where I did the drop toll hold on the chair,
but he jumped through it and jumped onto the chair

(50:06):
so like my legs didn't catch his, and so he
jumped on to the top of the chair and from
there he jumped onto the top rope. And so he's
gonna come back and to Boshmi, which is so athletic,
so you know, obviously you think he's gonna get the pop.
But instead I collapsed the chair and sat with the
saburo to the chair in his face and knocked on
as he was flying down, flying at me. And so

(50:26):
I win the spot. So all his athleticism comes to
comes to naught, you know what I mean. And that's
and that's how you and that's how you be a
heel he was. That's how you become. That's how he
is a heel. You do, you do all your creative stuff,
you just make sure it backfires on you.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
You know again that drop toll hold is one of those.
It's again one of those spots that I love so much.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
You know, we'll rushing like streep in the guard rail.
That's another one there. The easiest bump there is to take.
All you do is you push. You're at a squad
and then you push back six inches and it's a rail.
I mean, it's in a rail. Can't possibly hurt six inches,
Not that it hurts anyway, because really and gives clatters

(51:11):
and goes back so makes a lot of noise. So no,
there actually is no bump really on this and a
draw on the Russian legs she went to the cheat
into the guardrail. But it looks it looks brilliant, it
looks brutal, you know, all do you snap your head
back and you fall to your ground and you rock
and back and forth and you look like you're killed.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
So sometimes a simple move, well it's like you got murdered.
And uh, those of Russian legs we s definitely did
into guardrails and the drop toll in the chair, though
there is a story out there. You're in the shower,
you come out, there's Deborah McMichael, who at the time
is married to Stone Cold Steve Austin. Austin is not
happy about the situation. What exactly happened that day, because

(51:57):
I've heard different angles, different stories about this, but you're there.
What actually happened?

Speaker 3 (52:04):
Nothing? Really, Austin got mad because he thought, you know,
he realized that he didn't realized that was in the
shower before they came in, you know. And he's under
He's always under tons of pressure, you know what I mean.
He's got to run the company. He's on his back,
you know what I mean. And and I hadn't seen
him in years. You know, we used to ride together
back in w CW ME him and Kilman used to

(52:25):
ride together. So but he hadn't seen me in a
couple of years now. And then I come walking out
to town and they're shooting the scene and deppers with him,
and I'm like, and he's like and so he doesn't
know what to think. So he pulls me aside, you know,
says some stuff. I was like, I sorry about that,
And then I talked to him during the week and it.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Was cool, all right, because the part of the he's
cool part always gets left out of the articles or
the other stories. It's always it's always stone Cold and
Raven hate each other over a towel situation. I'm like,
I gotta talk to Raven about this because this is
what happens stared the part of the time.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
Yeah, I mean, he wouldn't have me on this podcast
if you care, you know, if he didn't, if he
was still mad. I don't think he remembers it, you know, I.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
Was saying that was two thousand and one so or
two thousandth.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
I brought it up like once to him and and
he had no recollect Like he had like zero recollection
of it, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
He didn't remember. H oh interesting, I don't look.

Speaker 3 (53:18):
I mean, he's been like, you know, it's this is
this is life. We're talking about half a cent half
a quarter century ago, you know what I mean. It's
a long time, you know. I mean, and stuff stuff
to me and stuff that stands out in you guys' minds,
you know, like I remember, like like, uh, if I

(53:40):
saw a match and I and I and I went
to the guy who I saw it with and I'm
like and I'm like, man, I remember when you did this.
He's like, yeah, I remember, And I'm like, you know,
or the same thing has happened to me millions of
times over the years. I'm such a fan of this,
but I understood it because it's you know, we're doing
this three hundred nights a year. You know, we're not

(54:00):
doing it, and this is like you might have a
memory from Toronto, you know what I mean, like on
a house show you were at where this happened. You
know it's such a big deal, But to us, that
was just another night at work, you know what I mean.
It's just like it. You know, if people give up
to you and said, remember when you remember when you
wrote that article? Well, can you tell me about it?

(54:20):
I don't know I wrote the article.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
Right, I wrote I've interviewed somebody wrestlers. Now, if someone
asked me, hey, did you remember that? But I don't like,
I think I'd like I think I did.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
But but if you feel bad because it meant so
much to them, but you know, it's a time has
gone by, which is is the biggest killer memory chair
shots to the head and then drug you know, drug usage,
you know, and just old age, you know. But mainly
it's because it's a it's a job. It's a it's

(54:50):
a you know, it's a nightly job. You don't remember
it like people were. You know, people don't remember their
jobs in day to day. They couldn't tell you what
happened day to day. The only person that could do
that is Mary Lou Henner. She says that she has
that perfect recall, like she literally you know who Mary
Lou Henner is.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
I've read name.

Speaker 3 (55:08):
She's from the show Taxi was Famous, of course, yeah,
the Redhead. She she has perfect memory, like idetic memory
or whatever it's called. She can tell you what happened
on any day, what the hour, the minute. If you
ask her, like, what happened, you know in July thirteenth, Uh,
what was it was the headline in the New York Times.

(55:30):
So she read the New York Times. Let's say she
read that regularly. You know, you go, what happened on
July thirteenth, nineteen seventy five, and she go, oh, the
headline said this, this and this, And you're like and
you're like, then what'd you do that day? Well? I
did this, this and this and I met this cup
of coffee and then drank it. It was terrible, and
it's like, holy fucking shit. But she's and for the

(55:51):
longest time apparent I've seen interviews with her where she
she didn't know then everybody isn't like that. She just
assumed everybody else in the world was like that, Oh no,
And then she found out and she was like, She's like, oh,
you know, that's gotta be weird.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
To remember every single thing that has ever happened in
the world, you know, But like you.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
Did anything that you were a part of, you remember
everything about it.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
We'll talk about this then if you remember it seem
punkin you have a historic storyline where CM punk is
kind of on the rise and Ring of Honor and
people are acknowledging him he's doing well. But once you
and him got connected, it created I think a spotlight
on him. Now can you share that experience because seeing
Funk in today's world, he's done so much. He left

(56:35):
a w D like a decade, was out of the
wrestling business, went to AEW for a little bit. Things
fall apart. Now he's back in the WWE, but in reality,
without the foundation that you built with him, they would
be no best in the world, seem punk there anyway,
who would have got there ched you said he would
have got there without you.

Speaker 3 (56:54):
Yeah, he would have got there regardless of what I did.
I did nothing, you know, the I mean to be honest,
you know, he was gonna get to the top no
matter what. Like at that time, he thought he was
the greatest wrestler in the world, which he wasn't, but
eventually he did become that because you know, like I've
been I've seen enough matches like pay per views, Like

(57:16):
why I used to get, you know, hired to sit
at the pay per view party and watch. So I
remember I was at well, I can't even remember the
show or the year, but it was like ten years ago,
fifteen years ago. I was at a pay per view
party and they're you know, they're paying you know why.
It's the matches with the fans and the like a
Hooters or something, and uh, and he was I was like,
holy shit, he's amazing, you know what I mean, Like

(57:37):
he really did become the best in the business, you know,
at the time. You know, and then I don't know
how he is now because I haven't seen him, you know,
but I'm sure he's quite good. He's quite talented, the guys,
you know. But my my little impact in his career
at that and with the with the gathering in TNA,
you know, we I didn't, you know. I tried to

(57:59):
instill some idea he is in on some points, you know,
I mean tried to, but I mean, but he it's
all like he learned what he learned, you know what
I mean. I would have he would have made it
regardless of me.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Oh day, I like how you Rampa gathering to Julio
de Niro and Mickey James and the reason and I'll
tell you right now floud out honestly, the reason I
started watching teen when it was called NWA teen A
on Wednesday nights for ten dollars of pop eight to
ten pm on pay per Review was they were advertising
a match Raven versus Jeff Jarrett for the World Championship,

(58:32):
and I said, holy shit, Raven's gonna win the World Championship.
I'm in and so I bought that, and unfortunately you
didn't win until late a couple years later. You did
win the belt, but again the impact you gave to
NWA in more star power and then of course you
do become NWA champion, but that's exactly the time they
lose their TV deal. So you're champion for a beat

(58:56):
for like two months when these events are not happy
on television, they're happening on I believe Teena's website, and
then you lose the.

Speaker 3 (59:05):
Champion, which if it doesn't happen on TV, it doesn't happen.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
And you lost the champage to Jeff Jarrett. I have
to call it a not taped before they joined. I
believe it was either Spike TV or Fox Sports Net.
And so in my brain, I'm like, why why does
this have to happen to Raven? And what were you
feeling like? Because to me, I'm like, he champion, yay,
and then you lost it not on television.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
I was pissed off only because it was because then
they didn't even have me on the first show. You know,
I've heard of CV showing on the new network, whether
it was Spiker or a Fox Sports or whatever. Other
than that, I mean, you know, it's like that's a business,
you know, you know, it's I'm glad that you know,
it's like, I'm glad I got to keep that for

(59:48):
you know, so I can put it on my resume,
you know. But I mean, it's the belts. You know,
there's been so many guys undeserving of belts that it's
not like it's not like it's that big a thing.
It's not like when you were Bruno and you held
the belt for eight years, you know what I mean.
You know, I mean they're and they're it's not like
you wanted a belt. They're given it to you. You know,

(01:00:08):
it's not like you beat somebody for it. You're given
it to them.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
But they acknowledge that when you get the championship, that
you're someone that they believe in, that you're gonna put
butts in the seats. Like it's not just but.

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
That's what everybody thinks about them. It's like, you know,
there's so many guys that want so many belts that
that they if you said that about them, you'd be
like you just roll your eyes, you know. So yeah, yeah,
everybody feels like that when the belts put on them,
that it's going to mean more, you know what I mean.
And some guys are right, you know, and some guys

(01:00:39):
are wrong. You know. I'd like to think you know
that I've been giving belts you know, in a lot
of places because it because I deserved it, you know
what I mean, because I was the best. But there's
guys probably out there to say, yeah, i' ra even sucked,
you know what I mean. But I think if anybody
you know, like it's funny, like I'm not a great athlete,
you know, but it's this isn't an athletic sport, you know,

(01:01:02):
this is I mean, the better an athlete you are,
the better you're at, the better you know, the odds
you have a making it. But it's not about athleticism.
It's about you know, IQ, It's it's it's about psychology
and ringmanship, you know what I mean, and putting shit together.
You know that it's gonna make the fans, you know,
get elated.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
It's like it's like I've always said this, you know that,
and a lot of like when I was doing a
lot of indie matches that for a while, there was
a big thing where I don't know if to still
is because I haven't done them since since three surgeries
in the last two years. I too, knee replacements in
the shoulder replacement. But uh, it's like let's go so
and so let's go the other guy. Yeah, you know,

(01:01:46):
and I've always said that that that's great if they're
cheering that. But if they're cheering that, then they're not
really involved in They're more involved in your spots than
who's gonna win the go and so I would rather
them say let's go Dreamer, Let's go Dreamer, and and
fuck Raven then having to go let's go Dreamer, let's

(01:02:06):
go stand Man, Let's go dream You know, when it
goes back and forth, they're there, not only are they.
I'm not say it's not a great match, because you know,
if there you got them go, if you got them
chanting like that, it's a great match. I'm suying. It's
just not dramatic, as dramatic as what I It's more
athletic than dramatic. And to me, it's more about drama.

(01:02:28):
Wrestling is about is a drama. To me, it's why
I never went to Japan. Well, I mean I went
to Japan six times from six different companies, but I
never I never tried to get a regular gig there
because it's not my style. You know, there is just
about you know, athletic, there is about wrestling in my
mind is about what I'm seeing about as drama and characters.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
I do all about I agree with you and what
you just said about the double cheering. It still happens,
and so in some but not in certain companies. Certain
companies they have this and that's that's how they make
their bread and butter. Other company do not do that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:01):
I'm not saying that's not a great thing. It's it's
a great thing. I'm just saying, if I have my
you know, preferences, I would rather just chant for the
babyface or boo the heel, then having to be back
and forth, which means somebody generally means somebody isn't doing
their job as the heel and somebody you know, and

(01:03:24):
and if it's a two babyfaces, there's there's better there's
better ways to work the match. You know. One guy
can always be a subtle heel, you know what I mean.
But if you're but it's usually not baby face baby
face matches that they make those chance it's usually I
don't know. I mean, I don't want to get down
on the weeds. I'm just saying that that my point

(01:03:47):
being is the whole point of all this was that
there is there's a levels, there's totally there's totally different levels.
And it's like you're talking talking about punk punk was
it a level, but he thought he was at a
higher level. Eventually he not only got that higher level,
he passed it, you know, he got to the highest levels,

(01:04:08):
you know, and he could draw money, which is even better,
you know what I mean? You know, so you know,
it's one thing to just, you know, to be that good.
It's another thing to be able to draw money as well,
you know what I mean. To be somebody who's both
critically and commercially acclaimed. Although critically acclaimed in this world
is really weird. It's like, if you go to the movies,

(01:04:30):
the critically acclaimed move that the movies that people crap on,
or the commercially the commercially big movies don't usually get
the same respect as action movies. Action movies, I mean,
they'll get the same respect this commercial movie. Commercially let
me start it again. Action movies is just NonStop action,
which is like most high spot matches. Get all the

(01:04:53):
get all the ship reviews in the movies, but in wrestling,
the sheets love it and I'm like, but there's no
rama to it. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
I agree, I agree CARKR.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
No, there's no selling, and that they sold them just
a little bit in between and more at the end
and all that they would have twice the reaction did
have twice, and they'd get great reactions, but they would
get even more because there's levels above just eye spots,
you know what I mean. And unfortunately in this business
that's would adored, That's what you know. The sheets like

(01:05:24):
Melcher and all them, they love that. And uh but
in the then again it gave you you're gonna argue with
movie critics. They're also pretty pretentious too.

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
So you know, well they also they also want to
still get free tickets to go to the movies, so
they're not so they're not gonna say the meanest things
about the biggest movies because then they won't get brought
back into those press conferences and those press releases and
all that stuff. Speaking of drama, though you killed them
mop one time on my night raw, Speaking of drama,

(01:05:54):
and I love it because there's this weird feeling that,
like when the wood Chipper wouldn't work for a second,
people believe let's let's let's let's dive down for a
second when you're putting when you're putting MAPI in there.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
This yeah, I think this is it's about it because
I got I'm running out of the.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Yeah, of course, mopye MAPI.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
Yeah, let's finish the MAPI. Yeah. So you're trying to
just so MAPI. I put it in a wood chipper
and then it does. Nothing happens. Like I'm like, I'm
trying to shove it. Nothing's happening. So I'm like, oh, ship,
Now I gotta kill the airtime. So this is I'm like, okay,
I gotta kill air. This is great. I get to
add lib here. What am I gonna say? I gotta

(01:06:33):
think of something funny or something cool or something you know, clever.
And then I started doing them. There was a cartoon
on a clay car, a claymation cartoon on Saturday Night
Alive called mister Billy and Uh and he was a
and he was a clay mation figure and he would
always get to run over and then pianos just drop
on his head and that's it. And so I was

(01:06:55):
like right away, I was like, oh, this is it.
So I just started doing a mystery board. Oh no, Mutton,
he's going on the chipper arm.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
I'm going to the chipper an.

Speaker 3 (01:07:04):
I love it so I turned I turned chicken shit
in the chicken soup. You know. But that's the art
form of wrestling, is being able to add live on
the spot. I I teach young guys. Let me say
one last thing. What I try and tell young guys
is you want to have matches where you called all
in the ring because you have to learn how to
you have to learn how to add lit. But you're

(01:07:26):
probably gonna have worse matches for a much longer time
because you can almost always come up with a better
match when you set the thing up ahead of time
than if you just make it up on the spot,
you know. And uh, but you have to be ready
for the ad libs, you know, so the uh. So
it's better to learn and have matches that aren't as
good because you're gonna learn for the future learning to

(01:07:47):
your learning stuff that's levels above. You know, are getting
an introduction of what's levels above where you are and
uh and it's it's funny like guys are so used
to calling it all on the match that if something
sucks up, if a spot bucks up, or it doesn't
react if people don't react a certain way, they get
lost and don't know what to do. So that's that's
how you erected by that, you know, there was There's

(01:08:10):
a great example I always used when I teach people
that uh it was. It was uh Frankie Gazarian versus
Ad Styles on TNA for the X Division title and
Frankie was Uh. Frankie was down and the AJ hit
tumbleweed on him, but he missed. So Frankie kicks out
at two and the referee counts three because that I

(01:08:33):
was supposed to be to finish. And then they give
de Bellot the AJ who's a babyface, and he's going, ah,
ship pissed, Ship pissed, crap fuck ship pissed and he's pissed,
like why would you be pissed at you? One? The belot?
But he is at the time he didn't know like
he hadn't he had never worked a match calling it
in the rings, so he had no idea how to
live a situation other than they just getting mad about it.

(01:08:54):
And Frankie hadn't had the experience yet either, So what for?
So what what I told him, what you should have
done was a j should have said I don't want
to win too, you're on a baby face. I don't
want to win the belt that way, Let's restart the match.
And then just said it with your styles class, you
know what I mean. And I was franky. I would
complain and say, hey, he he didn't win. I kicked
out a two and a half, asked the people, and

(01:09:15):
the people who are gonna have to say yes because
there's glaring, and he goes and then he could say
so start to match, and then clubs Ad on the
back shoots himrow for verse styles clash and uh, which
is so simple, you know, but if you if you've
never had a work, you never had a work, if
everything has been set up ahead of time, you don't

(01:09:35):
know what to do, and so ad libbing is such
a crucial part of the game. But it's like it's
like Al Snow one time was teaching a class and
he was teaching the headlock series and I interrupted him
and I said, hey, listen, I go I know you
guys are probably wondering, probably thinking, hey, I'm there. I
never do it. I'll never do a headlock series. You know.
I've never seen one on the law, you know, or SmackDown,

(01:09:55):
and I was like, I'll start to get pistol. I
was like, no, I'm not saying you shouldn't teach it.
I think you should teach. But what they're gonna learn
from it isn't the headlock sequence. They're gonna learn about pacing,
about sequencing, about putting stuff together, about coming back to spots,
calling back olds, you know, stuff like that. There's so
much more you can learn from it than just a
headlock sequence, you know what I mean that you're learning

(01:10:17):
more important things than that. You're learning stuff that's introducing
you to the levels above and uh and then you
know they're not all agreed and uh. But didn't because
I thought because I felt like the students are going.
You know, I felt like if I was a student
and I was going and he's doing a headlock sequence,
and I'd be like, I never see that on the law.
I never seen anybody who working headlock sequence on the wall,
because you know, it's not the it's not the venue

(01:10:39):
for it. It's out showing, you know series, you know, yeah, yeah,
but you know whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
Anyway, again, it's been a pleasure talking to you today.
And you know, I think in my brain future Hall
of Famer Raven do you believe so?

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
Now? A New York will never w W will never
put me in the Hall of Fame. But uh, but
thank you for the kind worts.