WWE Survivor Series 1987: Vince McMahon Hates Competition: Prime Time Vault

Step back inside Mooney’s Vault as we revisit Episode 10 of Prime Time with Sean Mooney and Hacksaw Jim Duggan! This time, Sean and Hacksaw break down Survivor Series 1987 — featuring icons like “Macho Man” Randy Savage, André the Giant, “Ravishing” Rick Rude, and of course, Hacksaw himself. Grab your 2x4, kick back, and enjoy the ride! Hoooo!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is a prime time with Sean Mooney production. Because
the event we're going to be talking about, Survivors Series
nineteen eighty seven, had a lot going on with it.
If you to go back in your time machine here,
the WWF was in its initial really starting to climb
as far as in the broadcast industry and becoming a

(00:22):
mainstream entertainment vehicle. And at that point in time, not
only was you know, there they have the shows on television,
but the house shows were the big drive for income.
And with WrestleMania that opened a whole new door. And
there was a few pay per view events, you know,
WrestleMania three, and this pay per view event was also

(00:48):
one of the first because up until then they'd done
close circuit television. Now folks will remember close circuit television.
It was, you know, a private screening. Basically, you'd go
to a movie theater or somewhere that would get this
signal and you would pay money and you'd go well,
pay per view, you didn't even have to leave the
house with cable. And Vince McMahon saw the wonder of

(01:10):
this and the chance for a great income from that.
Although it wasn't you know, if the first real pay
per view event and this has kind of surprised me
doing the research on it. It happened in nineteen seventy five
and it was a boxing match. It was the Thrilla
in Manila, if you remember, between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frasier.

(01:32):
It also appeared on It was transmitted through HBO. HBO
was also one of the new cable channels out there,
and that was really the kind of the birth of
all this as it started to go. But Vince McMahon
certainly took it and ran with it, and they were
able to you know, not only make money from folks

(01:54):
showing up to see the event, but people were willing
to pay money to see and their home and they
would you know, with pay per view, and this was
really the beginning of the empire. Really, this is when
it really started to take off. So anyway, in that
year in nineteen eighty seven, when they came up with
the Survivor series, that was going to be, you know,

(02:17):
soon become part of the Big Four that they would
do every year. The NWA was also experimenting They had
done close circuit television with their events with Jim Crockett Promotions,
and they decided they were going to do They had
a Thanksgiving event that they did Starcade, but this was
going to be their first venture into pay per view,

(02:38):
and Vince McMahon saw that this was not good. This
was going to be severe competition. Well, at this point,
the WWF had become very established as far as you know,
with WrestleMania and the kind of numbers they could do
in these cable systems. Vince actually said, you know what,
if you carry to a lot of these cable system

(03:00):
if you carry Starkade, I will not only not allow
you to have our future events, but you won't get
WrestleMania and a lot of these cable networks. Jim caved
and I don't know if you remember how big the
NWA was at the time, but you know, as far
as competition, it was pretty big, didn't you think. I mean,

(03:23):
n NWA certainly gave him a run.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Well, just shows what a master Vince McMahon is. I mean,
he sees this thing just starting to blossom, he crushes
it right away. He doesn't give it a chance to
start to grow and get bigger. I mean, he goes
right against it. Tells the cable companies, hey, if you
want WrestleMania, don't carry their show. I mean, talk about
a dog eat dog business, and Vince's the big dog there.

(03:45):
You gotta appreciate respective a businessman like that. I mean
he you know, later on in the as WCW took off,
he took on Ted Turner and put him to shame.
I mean, Laker hate Vince McMahon. You got to respect
him as a businessman.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah, absolutely, And I'm gonna have to when we really
get into this event. Because I hadn't joined the WWF
at that point. I would not until nineteen eighty eight,
in the spring of nineteen eighty eight, but I was
very aware of how cable was exploding at the time,
and you know, working in New York and how the

(04:23):
networks kind of laughed it all off. They thought cable
was a joke, and then it wasn't going to last, like,
you know, who needs all those channels? They're not gonna want,
you know, five hundred channels. And Jim also, they didn't
understand just how how much there was, how many opportunities
they were to use cable, to use that system, because
everything at that point when it was over the area,

(04:45):
the antennas in the house and it was free over
the air. Well. Cable brought all these you know, opportunities
that they could bring these events and charge people for
that specific event, which was was brilliance. I mean that
and Vince, you know, like I said, played his trump card,
no pun intended. There was good, but it was boaking

(05:08):
you know clause where none of these cable companies could
carry another wrestling event within thirty days of his Now
that was already written into his contracts. But then he
stepped it up because he saw what n w n
w A might too, and definitely he and it worked.
But you know, they were not only you know, making
money in these house shows.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
They had a good wrestle. They had had a good
card down there too, showing, didn't they. I think Flare
is still down there with n w A at that time, correct,
I think you're saying there the oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
It was, it was, Yeah, it was big. It was
a big time event went on the card down there.
I mean it could have been huge competition, Yeah, and
it and it certainly was. They were, they were pushing
things and then that was.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
When you do interviews. Remember Vince would not even mention,
don't ever mention the competition. Don't say were better than them.
They're doing horrible. You just don't mention them. They don't exist.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yeah, yeah, and that's exactly right, and uh give them
zero air time. Yeah until the nineties when that, you know,
everything happened. But that's the truth. And they Hello, who
let the dogs out?

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Jy just came down there, Jim, he's still there.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
Lets tell j y D to go up into the
living room.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
You will be up.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
And if you one of my best friends, God bless them,
old jy D. Junkyard dog.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah. Uh. But getting back to this, uh, you know
that this was one of those events that the Vince
was really willing to take a stand on, and uh,
thank goodness, it turned out to be a pretty good event.
But a lot of these cable companies backed off. And
there was something like three hundred and twenty five thousand

(07:02):
buys for the Survivor series, which was very, very big
at the time as far as you talk about the
numbers and Crockett's program, because there were some systems that
carried it but paled by comparison, and you know, I
think it certainly contributed to eventually having it end up

(07:23):
to where it did. And it was, you know, something
that he was definitely intent on doing, and I think
he really saw it was like a line in the
sand to try and control, you know, the business at
the time, and he was very successful at it. They
were asking, you know, people to spend some money on
these and you know, at the time, it was a

(07:44):
lot of money for someone to spend a lot of
money for.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Just to watch a show that most folks would see
for free. They would think, you know, but of course
back then, if you wanted to see the top guys wrestle,
you had to see him.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
At a pay per view.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
At how at TV shows, you'd just be out there
with a job guy and go out there and get
yourself over and a squash job in two or three minutes,
and it would just be squash job after squash job
after squash job, and then to see the two top
guys wrestle each other, boom, you'd have to go watch
the pay per view.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yeah. Absolutely, And to wrap this up as far as
the pay per view goes, I just really wanted to
make that point that Vince McMahon really is somebody who
was a visionary with pay per view and even when
people talk about the history of pay per view. They
cannot leave Vince McMahon out of that conversation. And now

(08:36):
it has become the mainstay with how events are presented,
and as you know, we are seeing that with the
upcoming Mayweather McGregor fight.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
But then, yeah, just not in pay per views. He
was a visionary in sports entertainment, yeah, just entertainment in general.
I mean, take it worldwide like he did. Crush the
cup petition. I mean, you know, you'd always.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
They move forward. Oh yeah, gohad jam.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
I was going to say, you know, sooner or later,
you'd think somebody come up with a number two. You know,
for every hurts, there's an Avis. And of course back
in the Monday Night Wars, people loved that competition. You'd
like to see another company come up. You know, you're
not really going to compete with a WWE, but offer
an alternative that folks have something else to watch. Because
Impact wrestling they just weren't carrying the load. And hopefully

(09:29):
out there somewhere there'll be a number two and folks
will have just at least an alternative to watch. And
plus also the boys might have a little bargaining power.
I mean if you're the only game in town. There's
not much negotiating you can do. You know, when WCW
was around, that was a great time in the WWF
because you could negotiate between Turner and McMahon. Now there's

(09:52):
not much negotiating going on.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
But do you think outfic is like Tommy Dreamer is
trying to do and these other can they ever or
get to a point where sure can even compete.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
Again Tommy Dreamer, I think here there's a guy that
really loves the business, is.

Speaker 3 (10:09):
Doing everything he can.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
I think if he gets the right financial backing, he's
got the right kind of talent around it. Because there's
you know, the world is there's there's only room for
so many guys in the WWE. The talent pool is
much deeper than what the WWE has. There's a lot
of good talent out there, and I think given the opportunity,
given the stage to perform on, they could really blossom.
And I think Tommy Dreamer, if he got you know,

(10:32):
some big backing from some big money guy, he might
have a shot. And big time river City Wrestling there's
a company out in Oklahoma. There's a couple of good
companies around the country. Just with the right backing, they
could take off because there's a lot of talent out there,
more than that's just in the WWE.

Speaker 3 (10:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
But the toughest thing about it is, even back then
some of those those big companies had backing going up
against Vincent. Now the company is just so gigantic than
any independent.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
That's the thing.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
You crush them or buy them, you know, you.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
Don't go up against them, You're just offering an alternative. Yeah,
you're not gonna You're not going to compete with WWE.
There's no way in the worldwide machine that's been going
for years we can trample you. But at least have
a little alternative out there.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
You know.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
That would be appealing, I think, but obviously hard to
do because nobody's doing it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
And now as Vince moves into another era of presenting
his product with the WWE network, it'll be interesting to
see how all of these other groups if they're going
to follow him into that, because he's put a lot
into the network now with all his events.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
Well, I'll tell you that that network is if your
a member has given new life to all my generation
of guys, Teddy Jake, myself we're out there just people say, oh,
I see you on the network. Even young kids come
up at autograph sessions and comic cons and they're like, oh,
are you Russell so and so, And I'm like, how
want the world? You see that on the network. So

(12:05):
that actually really helped us. I mean that was great
plus to get the library from Mid South Georgia Championship,
Texas All Star. To have all those libraries there, people
can really go back and see the early days and
see the development of different stars.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah. Absolutely, right, let's get to the baby.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
I was waiting for Brian to hit the train horn there, brother,
we were way off the tracks. Get on there we go.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
All right, as we come into Richfield Coliseum and Richfield Township, Ohio,
this is our next stop because we're going to finally
get to the main event here. The Survivor Series took
place in nineteen eighty seven. It was the first Survivor
Series pay per view event produced by the WWF, and
it happened on Thanksgiving Day. I remember spending many of

(12:58):
my Thanksgivings at the Survivor Series after this one because
that's what took place. And I tell you what, I
saw some amazing feats of consumption of turkey and other
items on this day when I was with the folks
from the WWF.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Well, you know, if you're in the wrestling business, holidays
weekends your work, and you know when Thanksgiving most folks
were at home and join their turkey with the family.
The boys were all on the road. You know, I've
had turkey dinner at waffle House before, back in the day.
But you know that going in but holidays is kind
of like being a copper or fireman. You work when

(13:37):
everybody else is off. But I tell you one thing
about that Ridgefield, Ohio Coliseum. That had to be one
of the hardest buildings in the world to find. I mean,
you can understand having trouble finding the spectrum where the
cow Palace in San Francisco, but you figure rich Field, Ohio.
But it was for me anyway. It was a hard
no no GPS.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah, that's right, and you're asking for a lot of
directions at gas stations on that end.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
We could pull up, I'd be driving, I have a
four hundred pounds ball, guys sitting next to me, a
hot blonde and a midget in the back seat. We'd
pull up and go hey, excuse me, excuse me, Hey,
excuse me. Guy, just don't look at him, keep walking,
keep walking. You go by the cops, they just pull
you over. Okay, what the hell is going on in
this car?

Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah, they get the vice squad for that, bring them over.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
I think that was a shot, Mooney. I'm marking that
down as a shot.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Okay, I'm way aheading points here, and I.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
Keep you're keeping score two.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
Owever, we good to see you one day, Sean, would
be really really good to see you.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
That's gonna be a long afternoon for me. Well, the
twenty three hundred people did find their way to the
Richfield Coliseum that day, so I mentioned folks at home
a by rate of three hundred and twenty five thousand,
and they went up against Jim Crockett promotion Starcade, which

(15:04):
was their first pay per view, but Vince, as we mentioned,
pretty much successfully ruined that Thanksgiving for them. That event
called Shytown Heat. They got heat from Vince MC. Anyway,
though it was it was a really interesting event to
watch because it and I'll get into this as we

(15:27):
as we move along here, but it was really an
interesting view from looking at it after being involved in
so many other productions with the WWF. This was early on, Jim,
and I'll talk about some of the things I've noticed,
but where they were really just coming together on how

(15:47):
to put these productions to present them to people on
pay per view. And I was just shocked looking at
some of the how amateurish and a lot of this
stuff looked. Because now even you know, just a few
years after, everything was just so tight and crisp and
music and boom and cues were right there, and this
was just amazing to me. And how how many things

(16:10):
were off with this one.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
Well there's a learning talking of you know, there's a
learning curve to it, and they were actually pretty steep.
And of course a guy like you got a pretty
critical eye for it too, because you know the business,
you know what you're looking for. But back then, yeah,
it was kind of a little uh, scrappy, but it
came together and the show worked.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
But now it is a slick production.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Oh yeah, absolutely is That's what I like, I said
when I was watching it, because it would become the
solid unit of precision machine, you know, with Kevin Dunn
and Kerwin. You you know Kerwin. Soephie's is the director
who's uh you know, directed so many of those events.
And I was like, these guys there, you know, because

(16:52):
you know, cues were off, shots were late, you know,
the audio was not mixed right, you know, mocks, the
mics were potted down too early. And that was all
within the first five minutes of the broadcast. I mean,
tell us, wow, they you know they had you know,
they went to the guys coming in and and uh
they went to an interview with gene Oakerland and his

(17:13):
mic wasn't up. And then it was the mix was terrible.
They had too much crowd. Uh you know it was
they they q Howard Finkel Gorilla is still talking. You know,
it was just it was it was just.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
Looking to see the other way.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
Also, Sean is a great example how hard it is
to put something like that on. I mean, what a production.
And I know back in the day, remember NYPD Blue
of the TV show used to be make a big
deal out of going live, like we go live all
the time. What the hell are you talking about? And
I mean it shows exactly how hard it is to

(17:47):
put a production like that on. And of course now
you look at it, it is actually looks like it's
running real smooth, but it's always kind of crazy backstage.
I know, back in the day. Sometimes I'd be right
there before I go through the curtain. I'd had my
two by four and I go, where's my two by four?
I can't find my two by four and have four
or five guys in the headset.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
Dougg and nugget.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
We need a two by more.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
Nug Oh, I.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Found a Fellaws. Calm down, you know, they did no sense.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, but but it says, as Vince used to say,
in those meetings, you know, nothing can go wrong, nothing
can go wrong. And you know you talked about before
when you know the slammis when you were you know,
involved in that big brawl and you guys went to
the door too early. And I'll bet anybody at home
had no idea because that team is so sharp that

(18:33):
they can adjust boom just like that. I had fun
watching yeah, yeah, but I had fun watching this because
it wasn't like that, and by any means it was.
It looked very much like a lot of the stuff
that we saw, you know, growing up with these you
know studios and uh dark you know, dingy looking shots

(18:55):
and and that's you know, you could tell that this
this precision team was just coming together.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
Well let's get to the first matchup. But you can
tell me about with Hanky talk Man. You're part of
the Honkey team. Honky talk Man, Hercules, King, Harley Race, Dangerous,
Danny Davis, and Outlaw Ron Bass were on that team
that you went up against because you were with a Machoman,
Randy Savage, Brutus the Barber, Beefcake, Jake Roberts, Ricky the

(19:28):
Dragon's Steamboat was the one who rounded that out. And
of course you so take us into this one a
little bit, Jim as a leading up to this event
and then how it came together that you were with
this team and.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
Talk about I mean pretty much everybody that was on
the roster was at this pay per view. You know,
a lot of times it's hard to get out of
pay per view.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
But they had like.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
I think they said fifty or something amount of superstars there.
So it was great. And if you look at my team,
you know, Randy and Jake Steamboat, well beef Cake and me,
I don't know, but you know that was I mean,
we had a great team right off the bat and
Honky Tonk, Hercules, Dangerous, Danny Ron Bass. I mean, if
I was a betman, if they would have picked us

(20:12):
on that team too. But uh, it was actually a
long match, you know, and uh, I think we were
longer matches with five on five Survivor series. Miss Elizabeth
was there, Jimmy Hart and you know that, like we
talked before, all these guys are top of the line
pros out there. So with that many guys in the ring,
it still came across really smooth and came the result

(20:35):
was exactly what we wanted. It wasn't one of those
mex ups like the Islam Awards. I appreciate you bringing
that up to Mooney, but that's another story. But he
was smooth in that match for a change.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Well, and it was it was you know, it was
a really good match. They had, as you mentioned, the
the uh, the roster for this, so that was was incredible.
I mean you had you know, you had the ten
man uh you know, tag team Battle. They had twenty
superstars out there. Uh and there was only there are
only far matches in this this whole event, and one

(21:11):
of them was a women's match. But this, like you said,
this one was a long match, but it moved along
really well, and you and everybody had a feud going on.
It seemed like everybody also gave people a lot of
reason to be in Yeah. Uh you remember at that time,
I mean, I know you were had something wrong with
Harley Race, King Harley Race, you know, and then you

(21:33):
you had you know, Randy Savage with the Honky talk
Man and you know, just there was just a lot
going on in this.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, so it made it made for a good matchup.
It made for a good matchup, and it came across good.
And of course when you're the opening match too, you
really want to kick off the show, right, So everybody's
out there flying around doing what they can, and it
came across with that many guys, usually something screws up.
I'm sure something did. I don't remember, but overall, I
think it came across from than one of the few times.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Now because they had some many of these you know,
they had a lot of these storylines going on, and
many of these things were going to go on beyond
this event. They kept you know, some of the stuff
going did it involve more you know, set up for
this than you know, say that as we saw last week,
you know, the Royal rumble to do a match.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, this was more involved than the Royal Rumble, sure was.
Actually the Royal Rumble is not that bad because you
just got to remember, you know, who's going out before, who's.

Speaker 3 (22:36):
Putting you out?

Speaker 2 (22:36):
And something like this, there's probably spots involved with at
least two or three of your opponents, your partners out there,
so you got to do those spots. Plus you got
to remember the finish And was this a match like?
This is much much more involved than the Royal Rumble?

Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, and so I mean specifically with you and Harley,
and I know you like to work on them. It was,
you know, a great performer. But could you walk us
through a little bit how that went down? I mean
I could. The way it really happened is that, you know,
you go to town on Harley and you guys. It was,
you know, like you were both counting out like four

(23:14):
minutes and thirty seconds into this thing. But man, you
guys had a nice little brawl going. You end up
outside of the ring after you close line him. That
was What do you remember of that?

Speaker 3 (23:27):
That mass?

Speaker 2 (23:28):
I always said, you know, I've had easier street fights
and lost than working with Harley. I tell you things
were pretty live out there, and he never griped about
getting potatoes and he didn't mind potato in your back.

Speaker 3 (23:39):
It was believable.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
Stuff, you know, with Harley out there, even at that stage,
I mean he was late and later in his career.
And his bump over the top rope, it's kind of
a legendary kind of a way you'll learn to take
a bump over the top rope. Harley takes that bump,
And of course I enjoy working with a man a
legend like that anytime. And the only thing though, when

(24:02):
I got Harley's crown, it was like a bushel basket.
The guy's head so huge. The crown would said on me.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
They never gave you they got.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
They gave Macho a nice new crown off this guy.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
But he wore it a little longer though, didn't.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
He was that another shot, Moody, you're really pushing at
the show.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Brother.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
It's easy to do it for thousands of miles away.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
Right.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
You know, I'll pull a hamstring if I get off
the chair too quick, So you're all set, brother.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, But that that was, even though it ended quickly, Uh,
that was. It was fun to see and because I
always think now when I watch you, uh, especially you
got somebody like Harley Race that you said, you know,
all that stuff was, you know, with the pounding you
took in there, as long as you weren't taking out
somebody's nose or you know, hitting them where you weren't
supposed to, that was. That was.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
It was pretty stay alive.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
And you know, you look at it and say, well,
that wasn't that long. But when you're out there throwing
heavy stuff, I mean you're throwing as hard as you
can at Harley and he's fighting back with you, it
seems like a month out there. You come back there like, hacks,
what a beautiful red tie you have on. I said,
that's not a tie, it's my tongue hanging out. Kidding man.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
Anyway, you're you were in and out pretty quickly.

Speaker 3 (25:17):
I wasn't quick, Tony knock it off.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Well more minutes in thirty three seconds, but it was
a damn good four minutes.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
And I hear that a lot.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
That was great though. I mean, you know, you were
the first matches in this this event, and it was
another you know, premiere premiere event for the w w
w F, so you were you were getting a big
push from this company at the time.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yeah, I sure was. I you know, that time in
my career, they were really kind of grooming me. I
thought maybe for a world champion spot down the road,
but uh it never worked out, which is okay, But yeah,
I was happy with the way they were pushing me,
that's for sure. I can never complain about not getting
the opportunity with w W.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah. Now, also going on in this ring at the
same time was a very uh you know, heated feud
between Macho Man, Randy Savage and the Honky Tonk. And
this was coming off a Saturday Night's main event when
Honky Tonk shoves Elizabeth to the mat and then ends
up smashing a guitar over Macho's head. Uh that you know,

(26:29):
you look back at that, and I know that this
is part of the storyline, But it could not have
been easy for Randy to watch Honky Tom It was.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
Probably sho ended up being for Honky Tonk. You said,
me and Harley got beat each other up. I think
Roger just beat the hell out of Honky talk But yeah,
because everybody know how much was about Liz. I mean,
he was, you know, almost fanatical about her. Keper locked away.
He loved her so much, and I mean that somebody

(26:58):
put their home.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
What was it like between those two, What was it
like between Honkey and well Hockey.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, you know, Hanky is a good wrestler, but he's
more a gimmick guy than he is a wrestler, where
Macho is probably one of the best wrestlers there ever was.
And that they they matched up together well, because you
know much could work with anybody in Honky he was
He's a good hand. I'm not saying he's not a
good hand, but I think there's more a gimmick guy

(27:25):
than a wrestler. So and like you said, that matchup
kept going even after the pay per view.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, yeah, and it certainly did. And I'll tell you what,
you never heard of anything.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
About Honky real quick, little off track deal, so leave
it our own, Brian. But anyway, Honky with that guitar,
you know, when he hit people with guitars, that's actually very,
very dangerous. When I was with the w WI in
working with Santino Morella, he came and he hit me
with a guitar and the strings they didn't loosen up

(27:56):
the strings of the guitar and the string came back
and cut his lip right, look like a hairlip, all
the way down to his teeth, his upper lip. I mean,
it was a bad, bad injury just for not loosening
up the strings. So that was honky. You know, he
carried a guitar so much he knew enough to loosen
up the strings. And you know, that's just a market
for professional not a you know, where you don't have

(28:17):
a a squad of guys prop squad taking care of
things like a rubber two by four.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, now, what about loosening up the back of that thing.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
Oh yeah, yeah, they loosen up the back of it too, brother.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yeah, because if you tell of those you have to wonder.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Sometimes they tell you it depends who was getting it right.
Oh yeah, sure, we loosened it up real good for you.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
But do you remember it all with this angle like
that Saturday Night's main event altercation was how Randy was
felt about it or was it I'm not sure?

Speaker 2 (28:54):
Okay, this is what refreshed my memory about the altercation
on Saturday night.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
Well, that's where they know they have the showdown and uh,
you know, so that's where he goes. Yeah, he shoves
her down and that that's what started really, you know,
escalated this.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
And Hankey and Hawky's been around the business, you know,
so he realized shoving Liz down is going to be
money deal. So he's not going to hand her with
click kid gloves. I bet I bet he shoved her down.
You know, she's she's one of the boys, she's a worker.
She's got to be able to take a little bit
of a bump. And I don't think Honkey would treat
her with kid gloves when he shoved her down. I
bet it looked believable, which probably even infuriated Macho more.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
If possible.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
You know, it's interesting to look back at that now, though,
is that after I talk about a guy who's doing boobplexes,
but uh, you can't really get away with that these days.
As far as touching women and uh, you know, back then,
it seemed like it was a lot more acceptable.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, well, I mean just that mad and Ralph Crampton
on you know, the Honeymoon's Bang Zoom to the Moon Alice.
I mean, that's a different society nowadays.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
Of course, you got women wrestling each other and stuff.
So in the business, I think you may have a
little more leeway than in a lot of arenas.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, but you wonder if that, especially with somebody like
a listener, by such an innocent time.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, so you could you could bruise Liz up by
yelling at her. You know, she was such a petite
young woman. I mean, she really was that the part
she played was who she was. That's why it worked well.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
This and you talked about this matchup that it really
you know, it was a it was a good match
I enjoyed watching it. It all comes down to, you know,
Honky Tonk against three the three men that he'd had
you know, issues with that past year pretty much with
you know, Jake and Steamboat even and then Savage and uh,
you know, they go to town on them because Honky

(30:57):
Taks is the only one left when it gets down
to it, and he ends up sending Honkey out of
the ring. Randy Savage does there's a double axe handle
and then you know, hit some of the atomic drop
and then he's out of the ring and Honkey Dog
just bolts he's done and he leaves and he gets

(31:18):
counted out. And I think people were still happy about it.
I mean that crowd still went crazy. But that was
the finish.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
It's kind of an anti climatic finish, you know, I mean,
just it was. But after all that, but you know
that that's got to be hard to come up with
something new. But every finish, but that should have been.
It would seem like a little hotter finish than that
if all three of them were in the ring. Actually
me and Harley were still fighting at that damn backstage.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
You just didn't see, Yeah, looking for the door you're
supposed to knock down, right, but it's but it really is.
But that did leave the door open for him to,
you know, have issues with any of these guys literally,
but you know what I'm saying exactly.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
He could go in any direction with anybody. And and
Honky was that kind of talent he you know, he
could work with any three of those guys would be
good matches, all right.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
And then we move on. We move on to the
Women's Survivor match. And as I said, there were only
four matches that were part of this event, and they
had a Women's Survivors match. The headline on this for
this this matchup was, you know that sensational Sherry had
defeated fabulous Mulah for the women's title in Houston that

(32:33):
previous July. So they put this these teams together and
I don't didn't know a lot of them, but I
know that a lot of them were, you know, very
renowned women wrestlers. Donna Christianello, the Glamour Girls, Rock and
Rob and Judy.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Martin, Rocket Robin and Velvet McIntyre. Velvet's been around quite
a bit, uh And of course Rock and Robin is
Jake Robertson, Sam Houston's have sister sister.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
Right, But so then and then Don Marie was the
other one who was part of that team with sensational
Sherry and then the fabulous Mula was there as long
as as you mentioned Velvet McIntyre, Rock and Robin, and
the Jumping Bomb Angels, Rio Tatino and It'suki. Yeah, I'm
a zachar very good and they were, yeah, but they were,

(33:30):
you know, a high flying team. But I you know,
I wanted was kind of thinking how I present would
present this match, Jim, because if you think, yeah, you
look at the divas they have today, that's brutal.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
When you say the Glamour Girls not there with Ronnie
you know, you know, that's that's the old joke, you know,
because now all the girls are young beautiful divas, are
right out of Playboy, Playmate magazine and stuff. So you know,
we're out having dinner the other night and the guy
ask my wife. He says, aren't you worried about Jim
being around all those young beautiful divas. My wife said, no,

(34:08):
he can't be a little worried. But yeah, I mean
a different business. Those girls like Sherry in Velvet McIntyre,
those girls Lilani Kai, they were physical, tough women. I mean,
they were your stereotype lady wrestlers.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
You know.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
Back in the day you'd say, oh, she's like a
lady wrestler. That was kind of a derogatory term. Nowadays,
you know, she's like a lady wrestler. I mean she's
a diva. But back then they were lady wrestlers. They
were tough, tough women. They could probably kick a lot
of guys butts, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yeah. And but when you compare them to today as
far as the wrestling.

Speaker 3 (34:44):
Different type of Russian too. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
But you see the women today, and as you mentioned,
many of them are really their supermodel looking you know,
they're very very very attractive. Do you see the How
does the product compare as far as what they do
in the.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
Right I think the trend is gone over to the women.
That has gone to the guys a lot more high flying,
you know. You know, back in the day had super Fly,
super Jimmy snook up on the top rope. Now everybody's
up on the top rope flying.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
You know.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
Back then, I think the women were more brawlers. I mean,
they you know, have a hold here and there, maybe
a bear hug or something, but there was a lot
of chopping and punching going on too, hair pulling. Where
now the girls, boom, they're up on the top rope.
They're doing some real athletic moves. And as I said,
with the guys nowadays, I think they're probably more athletic
and more professional than our generation. As same goes for

(35:35):
the women. Maybe not as original as our group, but
as athletes and business folks, I think the men and
women are a little more professional.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, and they certainly a lot of these matchups. I
mean I've watched the current product, and those women go
at it and they do some incredible.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
Incredible stuff.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
A lot of people come up you know and say, hey,
you know the women's division, the Diva division, that's what
they enjoy. The television show that the Diva Show is
extremely popular. I mean, and you know they're good to
look at. Who doesn't mind looking at a pretty girl?

Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, And in this matchup, it's interesting that it didn't
come down to this battle between Sherry sensational Sherry and Mula.
I mean, they were both eliminated in this, and I
think that.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
The point they're pretty good at that time. I mean,
you know, she's still It's like me, People say, you
still wrestle Hacksaw. I said, well, I still go to
the ring. I don't know if you'd call it wrestling.
And that was probably how it was with Mula. She
went down to the ring there and you know, but
she put Sherry over. That was a huge passing the
torch from Mula to Sherry.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
That was big, yeah, and paved to you know, started
the road for sensational share and the career that she
ended up with. But they were both eliminated in this.
And it ends up that it's Judy Martin and the
uh the Angels, the uh the Flying Bomb Angels in
this matchup and uh so I think that the point

(37:10):
of us was to introduce some of this new talent. Uh.
They it seemed as they had big plans for the
jumping bomb Angels in the WWF and uh that's they
certainly got a big push in this one. And they
know that this match was rated pretty high. Uh, you
know from the critics, who I don't think we're expecting

(37:31):
to have that kind of a show, and especially on
a big card like this.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
You know, it's hard. I never in my career looked
at the critics, so they always blast me too much.
So you know, everybody's got an opinion of the match.
But I agree with you that they they brought the
girls over because that was the start of the flying stuff.
The Japanese girls were starting to fly a little bit
before the American girls. And bringing them over, I thought
they were, like I said, we're giving them a push.

(37:56):
And who knows why it didn't work because they were
kind of kim the ball. You know, there could have been,
you know, professional reasons, but it also could have been
personal reasons. Going over Japan is hard for us. For
those Japanese folks to come over here for long periods,
it's it's hard to be away from their family. So
who knows why it didn't work, but they did take
a good look at them, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yeah. Well, this this pay per view was, you know,
the actual broadcast of it was, you know, clearly somewhere
around three hours long. They shortened it up in the
network somewhere around two forty something, but you could tell
they cut a lot of stuff out. And I mean,
just like Jump cuts Jim stuff much longer. That's right,

(38:40):
forget the four thirty three. But but they did. And
in between these matches it was just you know, like
I said, I talking about the crispness of the product
that us that you would see just within years of
this one. But they would take big long breaks between
these and they had you know, they'd go back for
these interviews, and you know, like I said, I wasn't there.

(39:01):
It looked like they were doing live because I think
some of them they would have done over again because
they were just all over the place. But Craig to George,
who was there before I was, did these interviews. Craig
mina Vernie, who was you know, a sports commentator and
personality down in Florida. But anyway, he was there before

(39:24):
I was and he was conducting these interviews. He went
by the name of Craig to George for these and
they had like all these people they would have, you know,
these tag teams in there. But like I said, the
audio was just really bad. They had they must have
other microphones in the room and then he had a
stick mic, but they and they want everybody to be
pumped up, but you could barely hear what they were

(39:44):
talking about, and it just you know, I mean, I
understand the chaos and you want to create that, but
it was as from a production standpoint, it's just like
putting that.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Many wrestlers in a shot anyway, trying to get anything
in because everybody wants to get their stuff in.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
Everybody on a pay per view.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Everybody wants I want to get my line in, you know,
so everybody's talking over each other. But like you said,
that was a learning curve and it's definitely improved in
of course Vince McMahon, he's a task master. I'm sure
he looked at that show and said this is not
what I want.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
And yeah, well, and I'll tell you the overall you know,
just the whole look of it too. I mean, as
you see today. You know, the lighting is incredibly important.
It was, and I got an email from a couple
of people that were talking about this. You know why
was it so dark in there? Well because they probably

(40:36):
depended on you know, the arena's lighting. Now, when they
do stuff, they fully light everything and they light up
the arena they bring in to make sure it looks right.
You know, they have microphones everywhere and it's just you know,
for the audio to make sure it's right.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
And you got these.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
Professionals that know how to do that stuff. But this
you could see, as I mentioned, this was really the
beginning of how this unbelievable machine was coming to you.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
That was a learning experience. I mean, you know it
takes time. How long it takes for us to get
the right microphone for me on this Sean. I mean
you know, it takes a little while to get it down.
And of course once he got it down, man, he
can produce them probably in his sleep.

Speaker 3 (41:19):
Now.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah, well the most difficult production.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Those things are extremely high pressure. You talk about being
behind that curtain, man, everybody's on pins and needles, everybody's
on egg shells, everybody's ready to go. I mean, you
got to bring your a game to a pay per
view or a live TV shoot. I mean, it's it's
the big time.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah. And they, as I mentioned, they were doing these
interviews for these the upcoming tag team match. It was
a ten man tag team match on each side, so
you had five five tag teams, and well, I tell
you it was actually a pretty good match watching it.
But the the they had the Dream Team, you know,

(42:03):
the Bolsheviks Nikolai and Boris Sukov Nikolai Volkov, Demolition Acts
and Smash, Greg de Hammer, Valentine, Dino Bravo, and then
the Islanders Haku and and Tama and the Hart Foundation
when you know Jim Knightheart and Brett Hart were heels.

Speaker 3 (42:19):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (42:19):
And then they took on Strike Force, which was Rick
Martell and Tito Santana if you remember back then, and
they were the tag team champs at this event. Uh,
the Rougeo Brothers, the Killer Bees remember them, Jim Breunzel
and the British Bulldogs. I know, you know, that's what
I was going to say after I introduced these all

(42:40):
these British Bulldogs and Dynamite Kid baby Boy Smith, the
Young Stallions, Paul Roman and Jim Powers who were both
you know something else and uh, you know and the
uh and the Killer Bees as I have dimensioned, Oh,
we already got okay. So but at that point in time,
the WWF look at the tag teams they had, uh

(43:00):
in the on.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
The Run, that's that seemed to have fallen out of
favor with the w W. I mean, you have tag teams,
but you don't have a tag team division like.

Speaker 3 (43:09):
You did then.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
I mean really just well known teams have been together
for a while, you know, Sean and Marty. I mean,
you know guys that were just good tagged them, the
Nasty Boys. I mean, there was just tag more tag
teams back then. And it's funny you know that the
the tag teams have kind of drifted in popularity and
the women's division has grown.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
Yeah, well it's all about what sell exctally, right uh
and uh and you've got beautiful women who can with
all their teeth. Yeah, actually works that way. But these
but uh, you know, they would kind of be as

(43:52):
the years went on and they would, you know, reduce
the numbers here. But all of these tag teams were,
for the most part, were really great eight performers all
the way around. And I just wonder like, how do
they make the decisions on what they were going to
do with this, because I know the Killer Bees were
very upset with Vince saying that, you know, he had
promised them that they were going to win the title
at some point. But you think about all the other

(44:14):
talent that they had in the WWF at the time.
You know, how do you decide who's going to be
on top here when you've got you know, the British
Bulldogs and the Heart Foundation and the Islanders, you know,
and you know the demolition was all part of that,
and then to follow you've got LD coming a lesion
of doom and just just amazing that the talent that

(44:38):
had just with the tag team.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, I can't see the Evince telling the Bees that
they were going to be world champions. I mean never
at any time I've ever talked to him, And when
me and Sarge were together, they were talking about us
being world champs, but they put it on the straps
on LD, and anytime he talked to us about it,
you'd be like, we're going to do this, but everything's
subject to change. So I can never see him telling

(45:02):
the Bees, yeah, this is going to happen and this
is going to happen. But everything's subject to change.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
So there was a.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
Change, right, yeah, exactly. But getting back to the production
value on this, and now you can imagine you know
how difficult it is with the cameras, Jim, You've had
them around you in a ring, you know, your whole
entire career. But imagine trying to be, you know, trying
to direct this when you've got twenty guys involved in this.
As this thing get started, they're all up on the apron, uh,

(45:30):
and you're trying to get cameras.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
What a camera crew they have, you know, so back then,
you know now though, down there to perform in Center Orlando,
not only do they train train the talent, they're training
the camera crew guys too, so they know which angles
to get in those Back back in our day, those
camera crew guys learned on the fly. As you were
being critical of the show, I'll throw you under the
bus there, But those guys, you know, nowaday know one, two, three,

(45:56):
this this move's gonna happen. We're gonna shoot it with
that camera. Four or five, six, that move is going
to happen. We're gonna shoot it with this camera. Back then,
those guys just had to kind of have the instinct
to be in the right position. Well.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
And you know when you mentioned that the school down
in Florida that they had, which you know, evolved into NXT.
When they would train the guys down there, they part
of their training was not just the ring work, it
was also training to know where the cameras were and
how to play to the cameras. And they had acting classes.
You know, Dusty was down there working with you know,

(46:31):
along with Chris Chambers.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
They Terry Taylor at school down as Terry I knew
Terry in Mid South. He used to keep a journal
of finishes and angles and interviews. I mean, the guys
was well suited for that position down there, and it's
a great idea. The only my only criticism of the
school is that you're getting just one kind of cookie
cutter look at deal. You know, back in the day,

(46:53):
of course, best case scenario, you'd learn a little bit
in Mid South, you'd learn a little bit up in Oregon,
you learn a little bit Minnesota, you learn a whole
different from different kinds of people. Now you're kind of
just getting the same outlook. But I think it's a
you know, if you want to make it in the business,
that's you got to go through n XD. You got
to go through the performance center in Orlando. Now, what

(47:16):
a facility, Sean. That's it's been down there, Sean, it.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
I mean I was down there at the time.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
I mean, it's a you know, NFL twenty first century facility.
It's it's it's beautiful granite countertops.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
No, well, I haven't been full sale I was talking about.
I was talking I'd been to the school that they
had in Tampa before they moved to Orlando. Was a
very small facility where they had the guys going down there.
But it, uh, it evolved into what it is now,
but it was.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
It was a great idea to to big room with
I think like eight different rings in it, and all
the rings have cameras looking at it. So you know,
who up in Stanford wants to look at a certain
piece of talent, they just click on that camera and
that ring. The weight room is off the hook, the
training room, I mean.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
The the lounge.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
I mean, it's a it's a huge facility and it's
great to see the guys being pampered that way. I
think most of them would rather just get paid more.
But yeah, it is big time.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
I mean, it's the it's the NFL now where you
know it really is. But back then you had to learn,
you know, just from experience being in the ring, learning
where to play to the camera and how to do that,
and that there wasn't really you know, formal training like
there is now. But watching this matchup, you could tell
it was. It was they didn't have as many cameras

(48:42):
they have so many cameras now around to capture every shot.
Everybody knows what's coming, so they make sure they get
all the cues right. And there's one one point in
this match where acts and smash are elimited. After smashes,
you know, he's beating on Dynamite Kid and the big
bump in that is he throws the referee Hebner, one
of the Hebner brothers, across the ring and you never

(49:05):
saw it. You never saw it on TV because they
missed it. It was they had they were on the
floor camera looking up and uh, it was just you know,
another example of how this you know, production, there were
there were still learning how to do these giant shows
and that certainly, as I mentioned, that had to be
a really difficult match to even try and you know,

(49:27):
to be able to let everybody see happen because you
had so many guys in the ring and they're all
you know, around the ropes too. At the same time,
it wasn't like you know the Survivor series where you're
going in and they're out and there's nobody really up
on the apron, you know, wait tags. So it was
really fun to watch. And I also thought it was

(49:48):
interesting to see the Brett Hart as a heel because
certainly after that and most of the time that I
worked in the WWF, he was he was a babyface.
So but I think he enjoyed that.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Again, as we talked before second generation guys, I mean,
Brett could pull over and pull off being a heel
or maybe in a baby face, but I think he
enjoyed being a baby face more than a heel. I mean,
that's who Brett was. But if you want him to
be a bad guy, Brett was a good bad guy, right.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
He pulled it off, right. Uh, but you see them
all the times when we're wearing the glasses exactly, but
you see him, you know, he go over and come
out with the glasses and he'd go and find a young,
you know, young person in the one of the front
rows there and give him his glasses. And he can't
do that as a heel, so I think he enjoyed
that a lot man. But in this matchup, as we

(50:37):
talked about that, the tag team maybe getting thrown a bone,
they have the the Killer Bees end up winning this thing.
Of course they had to cheat to do it.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
So surprise, So that a curveball for all the fans
who thought they were going to pick out the winner
of that one.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
Yeah. Well, and especially when you've got the Islanders, who
are you know, the remaining tag team they go up against.
Who would have thought that would happen. But the way
they had to do it is they put on the
remember occasionally they put on these masks.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
That's right, Yeah, the other one pinned them, right, Yeah,
good gimmick, good gimmick.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
Yeah, that's what happened in that one. Yeah. Well it
works because you know, you had Bronzell's in there and
then uh, you know, Blair puts on the mask and
then sling shots over so the ref doesn't know, you know,
who's who, and because they both have on and then
you know, and it gets the Penny.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Without the dick move. I haagine used it back then.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
He'd be out of work.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Well you used you never know exactly. Well, and that's
the way that one kind of wrapped up. And and
uh uh as I said, uh, how they kind of
between these matches, they were just it just took forever
for them to move on. There was like one point
well before as they got to this, they went to
a dBase vignette. Remember he did all those vignettes we

(52:03):
always talked about, we have we talked about mister perfect,
the ones he did, and they did some great ones
with a million dollars.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
That was a that's perfect gimmick for ted I mean
he he lived apart, he looked apart, you know, and uh,
it wasn't a stretch for Teddy doing the million dollar
man gimmick.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
He loved it.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
Of course, who wouldn't, Right, He's flying the first class,
the restaurants, stuck back there and coach, you know, riding
in Alemmo.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
We're fighting for a Renni car, you know.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yeah, no, I gotta sell it.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
I got the deal when we all came up from
mid South, you know, A junkyard dog Jake to snake,
a Hacksaw, Doug and Teddy. He's like, well, I can't
come up there, look at you guys. I'm just ted Dbiassi.
He ends up coming up getting a million dollar med
Man gimmick is the best gimmick of all.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah. Well, in this is vignette, he uh, you know,
he's talking about you know what the million man, million
dollar Man thinks about Thanksgiving. And then they go back
and they roll all of these things that he did
to people. And they showed the one with a kid
who tries to do the push ups and he can't
do ten, and uh, you know, debos the million dollar
Man humiliates him. And then the kid with the basketball,

(53:08):
which is Cla. I was there and I oh my god,
I mean that poor kid. I mean, if you didn't,
I know, they ended up giving them money. If anybody
ever wanted to know, I know they did end up.
But that was priceless. When he kicks that ball and
just the look on that kid's face and then he
goes over to his mom. He's crying.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
You think he's on National International TV. Drip the ball
and Teddy's seven eight n kick.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
Yeah, exactly. One they also liked is at the end
of this vignette, go ahead, yeah, no, kid. But one
thing I liked about this vignette is that in the
end of it, Debasi's driving this car, you know, that
through the woods of Connecticut and his audio is perfect,

(53:59):
so they must have done something to fix it. But
because the tops down, everything but the car he's driving
is I've mentioned before, the Vince like these klan as
these uh you know, these old roadster cars. He's driving.
Vince's the purple one that he had. So if anybody
wants to check that out, yeah yeah, yeah, and then

(54:21):
maybe the same servants that they had. I don't know.
Uh anyway, yes, Butler made okay, so not servants. The
They had another interview coming out Craig to George interviews,
uh honky Tonk, and of course it's just about him
ranting about why he took off and the inter continent.

(54:44):
You know, the intercontinental Champion's not going to put up
with that and the whole thing. Then they go on Jim,
which I still just did not get. They you know,
it was Gorilla and Jesse doing the play by play
in this who I you know, you know that I
think a lot of both of them as announcers. I
just never liked it.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
I agree with they didn't didn't match just a Gorilla
and Bobby did or Jesse and Vince, you know Jesse
events were great, Billy and were good, but Gorilla and
Jesse just didn't seem to go that smooth.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
I agree, Yeah, And they did a lot of events together.
And I I don't know how fond uh Gino or
Gorilla was of I think I know that, you know,
they worked together.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
Here's something little current going on that I think came
across to on camera too. And we're with you know, uh,
Vince and Jesse. That was just great banter. And of
course Bobby and uh and Gorilla was you know, ye friends.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
Like a lot of times you can't explain why it works,
can't explain work together things as a team. And I yeah,
and I and uh, you know, Jesse had his I
liked his style. I I love the way that Jesse
really logically could exe just about anything and as the
angle went, you know, with people and really explained away
like it was sports. It was like he was really,

(56:08):
you know, a former athlete talking about a play, and
he would be able to justify psychologically why this guy
did that and it was you know, it was really good.
I just don't just him playing off Gorilla didn't work.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
It did beating against authority with Vince, you know where
Gorilla just didn't work. Of course, you just got enough
heat with my sisters where they hated him. He talked
bad about me. Did a good job there. But I
think with Vince, I think that banter was different than
with Gorillah.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
But for some reason they did before this final match,
and I timed it because it just seemed forever and
they would never do this now. I mean, you know
what they used. The announcers are bridges of ten to
thirty seconds max. They did six minutes Jim of talking
going through every match that had happened to that point.
I'm thinking, what in the world where they did they

(57:00):
have to fill time for on this, because that's what
it looked like, Phil Bullets.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
Until that time. I dug it in race, That's right, Yeah,
but it.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Was a paper view. You can get off whenever you
want it. You've got a heart out here, you know.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
Oh I didn't do just to keep bringing that guy up,
Joey Ryan up.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
Yeah. Uh So then we get to the uh, I
guess we've described as the main event, Hulk Cogan and
Andre the Giant, uh, you know, the captains of these
teams that we're going to be in this final uh
Survivor Series match. And this is another uh you know
we talk about this roster and some of the talent,
the talent that they had for these matches, especially in

(57:47):
this this final one, you know, with Andre the Giant,
King Kong Bundy, Ravishing, Rick Rude, who was you know,
really coming on the scene then, and and one Man
Gang omg, I know, big favorite of yours, the natural
Butcher Read. And then you had Bobby Heenan and Slick
at ringside and that was that was Andre's side. And

(58:07):
then you had the ww F Heavyweight Champion hul Cogan
when they used to say heavyweight champion, and Bam Bam
Bigelow who was really big at the time, Ken Peterra
Mister Wonderful Paul Orndorf, and the Rock Don Morocco. Isn't
it funny we had a rock from.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
Hawaii too, right, I think, Don?

Speaker 1 (58:29):
Yeah, But you know all of those guys were and
there was a lot of beef in this ring just.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
Going up against the n W A thing they had
everybody on the roster on this card, and of course,
you know, you want to make sure that that's a one
really good ring that that might be pushing the weight
limit of rings with that group in there.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Yeah, that was a lot of juice.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
Well not just just girth with Gang and Bundy and
and your Morocco Bam bad.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
I mean Morocco looked like he was going to explode
at any moment. I mean it looked like an air
hose have been inserted, you know, somewhere. And really he.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
Looked at that. And were the small guys.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
Of that Yeah, yeah, Worndorf. Orndorf wasn't particularly big either.
Neither was neither was.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Rude, but the regular folks that were compared to that
group not so much.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
Yeah, right, No, and and and you and it showed
in the ring, I mean it was just like wow,
you know, even even looking at uh, you know, one
man Gang next to Andre, he didn't seem that much shorter.
And uh and and neither did Bam Bam Bigelow.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
Bigelow was There's a lot of weight in that, No question, man,
there's a lot of weight.

Speaker 1 (59:56):
So when you when you uh think back to this
this when you've got got this many people in here,
as far as and the and the size of these people,
is it any different than you know, lining up for
the match.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
You speak because you know Andrey is not going to
do too much to the finish, so he's going to
be on the apron most of the time, so that
cuts that down. Hogan's not going to do a whole
lot either, So the rest of the guys probably got
their spots. They go in and do their spots. But yeah,
you know, when you got that many guys in the ring,
which you don't want. There's no crossbodies, no coming off
the top rope or nothing, nobody flying around where you

(01:00:32):
might land on the back of somebody's legs. You want
to be careful when there's a lot of guys in
the ring.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
But yeah, and when you've got that going, I mean
it's basically it's supposed to be two guys in there.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
And yeah, I tell you you see, folks, sometimes they
win a contest or something, they get in the ring.
Just getting into the ring is a challenge. Getting in
between those ropes and getting there quick is tough. So
just another offshooting. What kind of athletes, those great big
men are you're talking about Gang and Bundy and in

(01:01:06):
a Bam Bam you're talking about great, big heavy men
and they're moving around pretty agile. I mean, all three
of those guys were pretty agile.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
Yeah, And what about Bam Bam Bigelow. Uh, you don't
hear people talk too much about him as far as
you know when when you talk about some of these legends.
But he really he could really move in that ring.
And I was always impressed by.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
His extremely agile, very powerful too, you know. And of
course the first guy really to have the flames on
his head, you know, tattooed on his head. Of course,
one man Gang had the skull and crossed crossbones tattooed
on the side of the side of his head. So
they were only big and ugly. They were scary too,

(01:01:53):
Sorry Gang.

Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
But really, the like you mentioned that, these guys were,
you know, could really could really work and and uh
and Bam Bam got a really big pushy you know,
in the finish of this, I mean, Andre comes out
on top spoiler alert there, Sorry, but everybody knew that anyway.
But uh, he you know, lasts a long time in
this ring, and at the end of it. It's there's uh,

(01:02:18):
you know, the it's it's Bam Bam and and uh.
You know these three other superstars in there with you know, Andre,
the Giant and the Uh. He takes two of them out,
you know, to to uh to get to the last man,
which is Andre. And it was you know, I just
was very impressed by how Bigelow sold in this.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Bam was good and of course you know who we
hadn't talked about much because you know, he said with
a slick and Bobby Heenan was old Oliver Humperdink, remember
the hump Man. He was a good manager.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
Yeah, and he was the ring side as well. But
then you know, as I mentioned in the it's a
wrap this thing up, you know gang, this one man
gang and fame, you know, Bam Bam Bungalow takes him out, Yeah,
and uh and the and then the big finish with
with Andrea because you know, Hulk it's counted out in
this uh and of course you know, uh, then he

(01:03:20):
comes back in and cracks uh, you know Andre after
Andre wins this thing. And there was a lot of
criticism about the Hulkster in this coming in and and
maybe whether or not he had control over how this
thing was going to end and what who was going
to take the stage and uh, but the fact that
he came in and didn't they didn't bring Bam Bam

(01:03:42):
back in or anything like that because he's the guy
that out lasts or at least for his team. Do
you remember any any heat.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
I can't if they if they put.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
On no I was to say with Bam Bam, I
mean with how you know the the reaction to you
know Hulk, I guess, well showcasing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Well, Hogan's the marquee guy at a company, man, I
mean he's the lead singer of the band where just
the rest are playing guitar and the drums. Hogan's Hogan.
So yeah, I can see him coming out and doing
a deal. And I think anybody knows business realized that
they're out there and they're showcasing their their marquee guy
who was as haul Cogan.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Well, and that's how you know, this thing kind of
wrapped up with you know, the Andre and uh they
do a backstage interview with him and with me and
Gene and Bobby. But and this thing would go on,
you know, with Andrea and Hulks are as they went on,
and they were always thinking about.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
How during that me and Harley were still fighting through
the back Sean just.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
Yeah, But overall, I mean, what was your thinking back
on this one. I told you earlier that about the
to pull Sunday.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
I think everybody started to realize that what this pay
per view meant, you know, like you said, it was
started the start of something new, and we didn't know
they're going to do one a year, if they're going
to do any a year, or how many. And I
think it was, like you said, a learning curve where
the production wasn't that good. Uh, probably the wrestling wasn't
as smooth as it should have been, but it was
just the WWF and it's emphasy going to the pay

(01:05:27):
per view deal. So it's hard to be critical of
something that's taken off and turned into the monster that
it is just glad to be.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Yeah, and you've mentioned several times him that, Uh, it
was you got on a roller coaster and it just great, right,
just kept climbing still.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
You know, I've been wrestling for many years, relatively just
a short time in my career with a ww but
that all anybody ever remembers it's it's huge. What the
WWF did for for me and my whole generation of
guys that worked for him. Could have been better, yes,
could we get retirement yes? Maybe insurance?

Speaker 3 (01:06:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
Bottom line though, it's been a pretty good ride. You're
not kidding.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
Yeah, at the time, did you and the boys realize that,
you know, this pay per view? And then they would
go to where we're gonna have, you know, the four
big ones before they you know, really took off and
started doing these on a much more uh, you know,
much more often. What I think would come down to you, even
what I.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
Think everybody were thinking about back then, to be honest,
was like, this is going to be a much better
payoff than a regular house show or a regular TV show.
This is a pay per view. We're going to make
some good bread off this. And you know that's that's
the way, you know, the talent looked at. It's a
way to generate more revenue, well a relative compared to

(01:06:52):
whole not too much, Andre, but no.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
No, but I'm not just saying relatively on all. As
far as you make more of that change, you sure
would income.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
But you know you used to have to wait. I
think it was like three or four months to get
that to get that check. For some reason, it took
forever to get the payoff from a pay per view
and the you know, the big underbelly thing going on
events was putting the money into an account and just
making the interest off it and ahole kinds of tales
that were going on. But bottom line, it did take

(01:07:24):
a while to get that pay per view check. But
it always was a little bone once in a while,
sometimes a big bone, sometimes not so big.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Well, a lot of times it took a while.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
That's probably more like it than the scuttle. But that
is going about the wrestling. But you know, the talent's
going to gripe the best part.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
Best part of the job.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
So how did these events? How did these events affect
the house shows as far as the live gates from
what you remember, I mean, did you see a big
a big kick few events that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
It was a lot because a lot of folks are
you know, look the other way and said they thought
they hurt the house shows. I was on the other
vein where I think it helped the house shows because
it made it a bigger deal. You know, WWF that
they're on pay per view and now they're going to
come to my hometown. You can watch them all over
the world, but they're coming here to our civic center.
So I think it just generated more and more excitement

(01:08:18):
about the show coming to town.

Speaker 1 (01:08:22):
Yeah, well, it certainly did. It went from there, and
you know, we had like the Big Four, these pay
per view events, and then of course, as I mentioned,
it just took off from there. They were always very
exciting for me to be involved in. I love doing
the pay per views. I love the way we set
them up with all of the storylines and you know,
and building these house shows as we went along to

(01:08:43):
get to the pay.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
Very exciting even nowadays. I mean, you know, you pull
up on the bus, you see the folks all surrounding
the arena. Everybody's carrying signs and dressed up like their
favorite character, a lot of undertaker, you know. But I
mean it's exciting not only for the fans, but it's
all so exciting for the talent. I you know, I
still get butterflies. I still enjoy it. I think if

(01:09:06):
that doesn't happen, then might be time to move on
for somebody.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
Well, you know, as far as the way people remember
this event, just as you know, one of the big
events that the WWF has done, and there has been
you know, whether they're coming up on the thirtieth one
just for the Survivor series, and it rates you know,
pretty much to the mid level of But you think
about all that have taken place, that ain't bad considering

(01:09:33):
as I mentioned the production issues that they had, you know,
the cues were you know, the often they didn't look
that great, but it still stands up in those matches.
I think all of them were great, even though I
enjoyed watching the women's match, which I think a lot
of people back then were kind of like, oh boy, okay,
now time to go go beer, you know, but no,

(01:09:54):
but seed shown.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
We're folks who that have the network are going to say, hey,
you know that might be worth check them out and
see where it came from, where what has become its uh,
you know, it is something to seek.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
Yeah, that is a great you know, that's a good
good match to look at because it really they had,
you know, there were some of the top performers in
the in the world of professional wrestling when it came
to women and you had Mula and was that was
the you know, the queen No but I'm saying from
the it was that was another.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Then you look on the way out here, brother, you're
going after Mula and said of me, I'm more afraid
of you than Mula.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
Yeah, but but but really to see the comparison of
someone like that, and then the you know, the the
flying angels, you know that, and and that movement which
is like you said, you see today these divas and
the way they fly around. So I think it's it
was a great event in World Wrestling Federation history, and

(01:10:56):
it was. It was so much more as I mentioned
that was behind this as when you look at what
pay per view became and how it was really uh
launched in that in that part of the you know,
era of the w w F, and how gigantic it became.
So I think it was a great event to talk
about today.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
And and think of the guys and think of all
the stars that were there.

Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
But let's no more. Dick moved.

Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
Yeah, yeah, we we we covered the entire body's body.

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
Stomp.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
Yeah. Right there. We got a couple of questions though,
before we get you out of here, Jim, and this
is this is a story of an encounter and then
also a question for you all rolled into one. So
this is from Darren Carry of Everett, Washington. He says,
one night after a house show in Yakima, Washington, I
was able to catch up with a certain rental car.

(01:11:57):
Hawk was in the convenience store buying a case of
beer Animal pump gas. In the car, mister Perfect was
in the passenger seat yelling at children that he would
not sign autographs for them. In the back seat was Hacksaw.
I know Bill Watts would have fined you for this
back in mid South, and it's evident Vince would not.
Did you prefer working in an organization where this is

(01:12:17):
the question part where you wouldn't get fined for traveling
with someone from the opposite side, or did you miss
the art of k fabe? So the question is you
know the difference there between you know you wouldn't do that,
and I think also, you know, do you miss the.

Speaker 3 (01:12:34):
Business?

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
You know back then where there wasn't just a k fabe,
the whole business was very close. There's only a few
guys that knew about wrestling. There wasn't like a wrestling
website that pulled the curtain back and told everybody all
the secrets about the handshake, about the juice, about speaking
kiaz Arni, I mean, you know, now everybody, yeah, I
kind of missed that error. But as a talent though,

(01:12:56):
I've always I seem to get along better with the heels.
You know, I was joke, I said, the biggest competition
on good guys side is for mirror space. Everybody's in
there looking at their air. They are all grease seduff
looking at their muscles.

Speaker 3 (01:13:09):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
Yeah, I enjoy traveling with Kurt and Doctor Death and
guys like that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
But uh, hey, guys, you hung out with there the smell,
but you know, and I'm not saying you remember that
night in Yakima, but that was probably a typical evening
stopping at the convenience store.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
Because who know how far the drive was. Imagine nowadays
a bunch of open beers in the car, I mean wow.
Back then, yeah, we'd all, you know, load up and
probably go from Yakima, head over to Seattle or somewhere
and a show the next night. Of course, traveling with Kurt,
you know, you never get bored. He was a great
storyteller and a rib pull er. So uh that was

(01:13:53):
that sounded like a fun car, except for animal animals. Okay,
but hawk there were six of them, might beat off
them up. In the same time, I'm like, oh, brother,
what's the nasties?

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
Tell you about eighteen truckers? They tried to come at me? Yeah,
but that would have been a fun ride, I would think.
After a while though, I tell you, uh but yeah,
but that that was That's how how you rolled. As
they say back.

Speaker 2 (01:14:24):
Good place to see the boys, right, beer stop after that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:27):
And then one yeah, I know. I was just waiting
for you to say, God, I missed the nineties.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
I missed the eight he's to go to the seventies
mooning It's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
And one bar for you, Jim. I have a question here.
Let's see when you wrestled in Mid South. You wrestled
Ted DiBiase many times. There was one match I still
haven't gotten an answer to, and he has emailed a
couple of times. The match where you and this is
Sean Sean Crouch, he said, you may know his name.
The match for you and Teddy was and he supposedly

(01:15:01):
ran into your fist which made him gush blood from
his nose. I asked ted this question. He said, you
forgot the spot and you said, he ran into your fists?
Which one is the real deal?

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Do you remember more than one time with Teddy? I
split him open over the years. You know, I'm still
I'm out there. My eyes are crossed. I'm throwing these
live rounds like great a hams, flying towards Teddy. You know,
I've got him a few times over the years, but
I always said he ran into my fist, you know.
Of course, I'll tell you a quick story to go

(01:15:31):
off off.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
The two inches got me back.

Speaker 2 (01:15:33):
One time I was getting some juice with a blade,
which I hated to do because I just hated disgrabe
my body with a razor blade. But anyway, I'm getting
juice and I'm like, Teddy's that enough. He's like no more.
So I get some more enough. Teddy's like no more?
About three or four more? Dug and more. I look down.
I'm like ankle deep in blood.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
You know. So Dbashi got me back.

Speaker 1 (01:16:00):
He worked here for that one. All right, some great questions, folks,
keep them coming. We're just getting out of time here.
Once again, Please spread the word on the podcast. We're
available on mlwradio dot com and of course, as I
continue to mention iTunes because you help us out a
lot when you subscribe there, even more when you give

(01:16:21):
us a five star rating and give us a review
on there. We'd love to hear some feedback, but we
really want you to get the word out so that
we can keep doing this every week. I can keep
driving Jim crazy and keeps putting up with my nonsense.
You can also contact us once again through our website,
which is what is it Primetime at MLW dot com.

(01:16:46):
Primetime at MLW dot com. You can get in touch
with Hacksaw to official at Official Hacksaw and of course
me at Sean Mooney Who, and we also have the
podcast Twitter handle at Primetime on MLW. There's lots of
ways to get to us so we can get back
to you. So thanks folks once again for joining us

(01:17:08):
here on Primetime with hacks Jim Duggan and I'll tell you, but.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
I just want to say one thing for our good
friend Rick Flair. Rick, We're thinking about your buddy, and
this holds for you, Oh, the rule of never stops.

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
Interested in starting your own podcast, audio Boom can help
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(01:18:01):
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