September 10, 2024 • 58 mins
Saving Our Community - The Antidote for Anger with Guest Robert Dean Bell
In this episode of Prisoner's Pardon Podcast, host Michi J discusses the pervasive issue of anger in society and its connection to imprisonment. The guest, Robert Dean Bell, a Milwaukee pastor and author of the book '80 Barry White Voices,' shares his transformative journey from a life of violence, anger, and imprisonment to one of forgiveness. Bell recounts the pivotal moments of forgiving the murderer of his brother, reconciling with his mother, and emphasizing the power of forgiveness in changing his life and others. Their conversation delves into how to forgive and the mental, spiritual, and emotional impact of genuine forgiveness, urging listeners to embrace forgiveness as a means to heal and move forward in life.
00:00 Introduction - The Dangerous Impacts of Anger
00:39 Understanding Anger in Society
01:12 The Role of Forgiveness
01:52 Guest Introduction: Robert Dean
02:25 Robert Dean's Journey and Book
04:00 Tragic Loss and the Antidote Forgiveness
08:19 Healing and How it then Transforms and Reconciles Relationships
14:15 The Power of Forgiveness
29:50 The Power of Forgiveness
30:56 Personal Struggles and Redemption
32:03 A Life Changed
33:04 The Impact of True Forgiveness
36:08 The Journey to Self-Forgiveness
38:18 Embracing a New Path
40:12 Overcoming Challenges
43:08 The Rewards of Letting Go
45:36 Final Reflections and Encouragement
Guest Information:
Book: Eighty Barry White Voices: Bell Sr., Robert Dean: 9798884767584: Amazon.com: Books
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:18):
Hello everyone.
And welcome to aprisoner's part in podcast.
I'm your host Meechie J.
I'm sure everyone has heard about thelatest incident of a shooting in Georgia.
This is where a young person.
Took upon himself to, kill anumber of his fellow classmates.
What is all of us stemming from?
(00:39):
I say it's anger.
We're seeing so much anger in our society.
We see it in road rage.
We see it in offices.
We see it at home.
Work.
We're see it.
Our church.
We're seeing it in ourselves.
We're just seeing it everywhere.
And this is what leadsto why a lot of people.
(01:03):
Are in prison.
And when even when they get out,they're still having this anger.
So, what do we do about this?
That is what a prisoner'spardon podcast is all about.
It's about a pardon?
A pardon is an act of forgiveness.
And that's how we counteract anger.
(01:25):
We do it with forgiveness.
I'm pretty sure most of us have been told.
We need to forget.
But.
Did they tell you how to do it?
Did they explain to you that.
Forgiven someone doesn't necessarilymean that there's no accountability.
We're going to be talking about howto forgive someone for one of the most
(01:49):
hardest things to forgive a person for.
Today we're going tohave as a guest is Mr.
Robert Dean.
, he is a Milwaukee native.
He is a, a O D a counselor.
He's actually now a pastor as well.
He's a husband, father.
Business owner, and now he is an authorand we're going to be talking to him
(02:13):
about his book because he does talk aboutforgiveness . Welcome pastor bell.
How you doing?
Me I'm doing great.
I have you now on the show withme to talk about your new book.
80 Barry white voices, I want youto go into detail about the title.
You guys, I have the book and I've alreadyread it and I just highly recommend it to
(02:35):
the audience because it's going to giveyou a good insight , just a lot of things
in life and how you can overcome it.
But let's tell us more about you.
Oh, well, my, my name is Robert bill.
Like you said, I'm born and raised here.
, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin atthe moment, I'm a pastor.
I'm the pastor of light church,Milwaukee here on 56 and burlock.
(02:55):
I'm a proud and happy husband, uh,Latrice bill, , seven children.
Um, just, a new life.
Oh, yeah.
I know it's a new lifebecause I read your book.
I went through everything and, , yes,it's definitely a new life and looking
at you now, most people wouldn't thinkthat you've been there, but I'm here
(03:17):
to tell you, no, that's not the case.
Yes.
But tell us more about.
Why did you name the book80 Barry White Voices?
I named the book 80 Barry WhiteVoices because it is what I heard.
It was the voice of Godthat, that changed my life.
And it's really not giving it away.
(03:37):
You can still get the book andyou're gonna be like blown away.
But it was, it was what I heard from God.
And it sounded like.
80 barely white voices andeverybody know barely white.
He was a singer.
He had a real deep voice, you know,and I'm talking about it was 80, but
it was a gentle 80, very white voicesthat I heard that changed my life.
(03:58):
Hmm.
Okay.
All right.
Tell us more about, , I know wedon't want to give the book away,
but, , we had a tragic thing happen.
You're leaving.
It was your younger brother.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause you're the oldest, right?
Yes.
Okay.
And he got killed and you had to goto court and you spoke some about
(04:21):
forgiving the killer of your brother, just enlighten us a little bit more.
What led to that?
Oh, well, I was in prison.
I was getting out two weeks later andyou know, when you go on a journey, see
if you can just keep being a knuckleheador you can get to catch yourself.
But I've always been a cat thatwas curious about books and getting
around people that were knowledgeable.
I always hunt around the older crowd,even though I was street, straight street.
(04:44):
Um, this is one of those times.
It's like, man, I gottaget my head together, man.
And I was getting out two weeks later.
I remember I was getting out February28th and my brother was murdered
February 12th and it happened.
And this is when I was like comingdeep out of the game, you know, things
were changing in my life, um, fora point because I went back, but.
(05:09):
At that moment in my life, God hadbeen speaking to me like I just didn't
want to be in the streets no more.
I was like, I want to be a grown man.
I want to do grown man things.
And once I get, I got that newsFebruary 12th, they called me,
um, to the office that night.
You know, usually they wait, theydon't tell you nothing because
they don't want no riots totake place and nobody go crazy.
(05:31):
So they'll wait till everybodygo to sleep or whatever.
But this particular day, it was early.
Time and they called me down and said,um, that my brother was murdered, you
know, uh, at a, at a local, at a bar.
And there was over a girl, the otherguy, girl liked it, my brother.
And it was, it was crazy.
It was just, it made me so mad, butonce I, uh, but I just stayed positive.
(05:56):
Did I want to kill dude?
Did I want to go back to the old life?
Absolutely.
But it was like, God had hishands on me and, um, I got out.
Then they, I think they finally foundhim weeks later and, um, probably a
month, a couple of months out after Igot, I don't know, in Tennessee, brought
him back and he was, uh, facing trial.
(06:17):
Wow.
That happened pretty quick.
You know, a lot of times they don'tfind the person so now did you know him?
No, I, most of his family though,everybody was like, yeah, I was pretty
known in the streets, even to this day.
And, um, I walked in, our familysitting on this side, and they
family sitting on this side.
And there was, uh, it was like, it wasa few cats like, Oh, what's up, babes?
(06:40):
I was like, hey, what's up, man?
And it was crazy.
They didn't even know how to feel.
And, and I, you know, I sat on the sidewith my family, and we went from there.
And, um, just remember my family going up.
And everybody was like, you need to, Ihope you suffer, you know, stuff like
that, but I, I didn't feel none of that.
(07:02):
I was, I was.
I didn't, I couldn'teven explain the feeling.
God had me at peace.
He already told me what to say.
And, um, I knew I had to beopposite of what was being said.
And so when I got on the stand, I talkedabout my brother and how much I love them.
And you know, a little stuff whenwe was kids, cause I watched all of
them, you know, I'm the oldest outof five boys and one girl, um, I told
(07:26):
them, I said, man, I miss my brother.
Then at one point I just looked at him.
I said, man, look, I forgive you, man.
And I was like, why are you in there?
I was like, you know,getting your word, man.
I said, get in your word.
I was like, cause Christis your only hope.
And I said, he gonna, he is peace, man.
Cause you're going to need a man.
And I was like, God bless you, brother.
And that was it.
(07:46):
I walked off court and peoplewere stopping me and like, man,
like the lawyer, that was, itwas a lawyer sitting in there.
She was like, I never heardnobody, you know, do that.
And you can feel the power of forgiveness.
In the room, it wasn't just forgiveness,but it was the power of interesting , I
like what you said about, it's a powerin the room was filled with it and God
(08:11):
was working on you and you couldn't havedone that in my estimation by yourself.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
So you said God was doing,a work on you, right?
Yeah.
I've noticed because of goingthrough forgiveness myself, that
this work that he's doing inside.
(08:34):
Is.
Where he shows you yourself.
The work he's doing is wherehe's showing you your real self.
And where you.
Actually our.
In life in a lot of timesbecause of what's going on,
the speed of what's going on.
You never really sit down.
(08:55):
And get a chance toreally look at yourself.
And you can't.
Really look at yourself, how youneed to, unless you have help.
For instance, to look atyourself, you need a mirror.
And when God is working on youat this point, He is showing.
The inside of you.
That's part of the work that he's doing.
(09:16):
In that's needed whenyou're going through.
This process of forgiveness.
Where he has to help you.
So You tell him getting your word whileyou in there is something you had to do or
you were doing that prepared you for this.
So it's a place you have been yourself.
(09:37):
So you kind of sawyourself in that person.
A lot of us think that when we're betterthan other people at times and we forget.
So God has a way of bringingus back to our senses.
, so to speak, , and getting us in thatplace and where we can see ourselves and,
(09:58):
, I see your, I know this is a podcastand people can't see right now and it's
a powerful moment right now for you.
Uh, you're reflecting onthat in the power of guys.
So looking at yourcharacter from before and.
What you did then wasis totally different.
(10:19):
It was not the same person.
Yeah, people like people used to be mymom's, you know, it hurted my heart.
Once I got saved, you know, youknow, I accepted Christ in my
life and I have to both feet in.
I had a my mind was made up.
It was I was done and I made my mindup and man, it transformed my heart.
(10:40):
I made up mine is powerful and I was done.
But I but You know, makingup your mind, um, got me into
relationships that were broken.
Got me back into relationshipsthat were broken.
And it was my mother, youknow, I was the oldest.
So she would tell me secrets andstuff when we was little, you
know, in abusive relationships.
So I knew how to get out thehouse and all that type of stuff.
(11:03):
Like who to call and stuff, butall that stopped in my old life.
But now when I got.
Back into relationship with my mom's,you know, until my once I got my life
right with Christ, my mom startedopening it back up again to me because
they're all less taken from me.
So we share things.
And one day we were sitting in ourhouse one day and I guess the old
(11:24):
picture came up and she was like, yeah.
And then all my guys,everybody said the same thing.
They was like, man, they was like, man,cast was scared when you came around, man.
It was like, and my mama openedup her mouth and said, me too.
She was like, I shouldbe scared of you, man.
That broke my heart, man.
I was like, I didn't even know.
Cause I used to snap, youknow, I used to go crazy, man.
(11:45):
You know, not meeting my real father.
Everybody else had an opportunity forthat in my family, but I was really hurt
over the years and never met my realfather and I should take it out on my
mom's, you know, we throw dope together.
Uh, just, she was a young mother.
She was 21 with six kids.
I had to think back.
I was like, wow.
(12:06):
I said 21 with six kids and Iactually when she was saying she
was like, no, I love my kids.
But what I'm saying is that sheopened up and when she said that
to me, it broke my heart, man.
She said she was scared of me.
And I, I seen that times,you know, I saw it.
I never put my hands on my mother, butthe way I would, you know, flex up.
(12:26):
Like, cause I ain't no little guy,the way I would flex up and, and the
whole house would clear or whereverI was, people would just clear
out cause I had this anger, man.
And when she said that,that broke my heart.
And that was afterwards, right?
No, this was before, like,before I got saved, like.
(12:48):
Okay.
Yeah, so when I got saved,she opened back up to me.
You know, when you, when you cussing yourmother out, being crazy, acting crazy
and all that, your parents shut down onyou, you know, they, they start revealing
things that they have for you, youknow, and um, All that shut down on me.
And so now that I'm saying my mother, wetalk, it's just like, I'm a kid again.
(13:11):
She opened up by, she tells me if shehad just called me, like, guess what?
You know, that, that Avenue has beenopened up, but when you disrespectful to
your parents, which is an authoritativelevel, them doors close on you.
So a lot of kids out here aremissing out on value, value, valuable
conversations because of the disrespect.
(13:31):
And I want to, , just actuallyrefer that back to forgiveness
and it's, , reconciliation,, reconciling those relationships.
And like you just said, if you don't havethat forgiveness, there's no opening,
there's no intimate conversations.
(13:55):
And you I believe you were havingthose intimate conversations
while you were in prison with God.
And to be able to forgive, youhave to not just know about God.
You have to know God and havethose intimate conversations.
And, um, so many of us miss that becauseI've seen where he's more apt to listen
(14:23):
to us than we are to talk to him.
And being who he is.
, that's a great opportunity.
And It's valuable.
He's the creator of the universe andhe's opening up opportunities for us to
have these conversations with him and.
And that was, that was a significant thingyou did and it showed that, that there
(14:48):
was things going on that you were , inthe business of renewing your mind.
Yeah.
Because I was looking into this latelyabout transforming and renewing your mind.
You have to be.
First transform before youcan even renew your mind.
So now you're doing this and renewingyour mind was part of Lee, how
(15:13):
you were able to forgive exactly.
And then it was so powerful.
I believe it's, it's, it's.
It's still having an impact just likenow our, our conversation now, and
I'm pretty sure everybody that wasin that courtroom was impacted by it
because you don't see that every day.
So they're still being impacted by it.
(15:36):
I'm pretty sure they toldsomebody and what you did was.
Very, um, that was, it was God inthat room and you were being used
in, , the conversations you hadafter that and how, what you're
saying now with your, your mom, youwere able to, reconcile with her.
My belief is you first needto reconcile with God first
(15:59):
before all other relationships.
I think that my forgiveness thatGod put on my life to help me when
it came to forgiving others whenI when I knew that I was forgiven.
I knew that out in the book, butit was one time like with my mom's.
Two sections.
It's like when my mom's, I wasgraduating from, uh, adult and teen
(16:21):
challenges, a ministry program.
And I was graduating, shecame and my two children came.
I wasn't married at the time.
And, um, she's getting my lifetogether, but, but my mind was made up.
And I remember grabbing the micand they told me, and it's like 200
people in the room, they said, Hey.
They said, um, uh, Robert, just,you know, give you a testimony.
Like that's all cool.
(16:42):
I grabbed a mic instantly.
I knew the Holy spirit waslike, apologize to your mother.
And we have been kicking it.
I've been saying it like, mom,forgive me, you know, for the way
I used to talk to you and all that.
But this day it was like, Authentic.
And I said she was sittingin the back of the room.
It's like 200 people, man.
She's sitting in the backwith my two children.
And I said, man, before I say mytestimony, I just want to say,
(17:04):
I said, I'm going to tell mymother, mom, please forgive me.
And I could barely breathe.
Like, I was like, mom, pleaseforgive me for the way I treated you.
I said, you didn't deserve none ofthat, you know, because I'm honored
that your father and mother don't comewith stipulations because some people
think because your mom on drugs oryour mom or your dad or you got to
(17:24):
write, uh, don't come with stipulation.
And, uh, I was like,mom, please forgive me.
And, uh, and I'll never forget.
I just, and it was quiet and people, thepower of forgiveness came in the room.
They understood the power of it becauseI was from the back of the room.
She said, I forgive you, Robert,like that, man, the whole place.
erupted, praising God, crying.
(17:48):
People was just crying all over.
It was the power of forgiveness.
Um, and she forgave me.
And, um, but another time, um,the forgive, no, just helping me.
I started to understandforgiveness as I went along.
And you know, it was a, it was somebody,it was people that have done things to me
(18:08):
in my life that I couldn't forgive, man.
And I was like, God, howdo you forgive somebody?
I was like, cause they keep comingup, you know, the person's face
keep coming up the next day.
And God told me one day, literally,he said, listen, Forgiveness
don't come with feelings.
Oh man.
Mic drop.
(18:30):
Just told me straight out.
It was a Ephesians 4 32.
It talks about forgiveness, butit also has all the feelings
that you have in the beginning.
And it said, you know, showpeople kindness and, um, it
says, show people kindness.
Here it is right here.
It says, uh, and be kind toone another, tender heart,
(18:54):
just as God in Christ.
forgave you.
And so you look at the top partof saying, be kind to one another
and be tenderhearted and seek.
And when you don't forgive, ittakes that from your heart, the
kindness and being tenderhearted.
You, when you don't forgive, it's tryingto show you what your heart experiences
outside of forgiveness, the first part.
(19:15):
And it said, just know, be kind andtenderhearted to one another, just
as God in Christ Jesus forgave you.
And so I took that verse.
And I'm telling you, I forgave,because I not only hurt people, you'll
see in the book, but it was people.
And I, it was times I couldn'tsleep like for, for what people did.
(19:38):
And I took this verse and I said,Lord, I forgive this person just
like you forgave me in Christ Jesus.
And I said, I forgive.
And it didn't come with feelings.
And the next day, the same feeling come,I had the same feeling about the person.
And I'm telling you, and, andwhat God taught me in that moment,
he said, just say forgiven.
And I was like, because what meand you did was real because at
(20:00):
that moment, it was actually real.
What I went through, what I, theforgiveness I did, but the next day it
comes up, it don't feel like you did it.
You didn't do it right.
You like, no, God toldme like you did it right.
And so soon as that person probably yourmind at the devil, because the devil keep
bringing it up, you say, forgive him.
And then you might feel this way, but.
You speak this way, you respondthis way outside of feelings.
(20:24):
And man, I'm telling you, it's peoplethat I have literally , forgave
people and the wound got so it'sno longer open anymore in my life.
It's um, it's closed up, it healed andit got stitches and it's just a scar now.
And, um, it's a testimony forme because, and that's what I,
(20:44):
that's, I just want everybody tounderstand feelings don't come.
But I mean, forgiveness don't come byfeelings, but it comes by, um, with you,
your trust, uh, forgiveness through theword of God, because he forgave you.
I like how you, you put that in.
Yes.
That's definitely was a mic dropto say forgiveness doesn't come
(21:04):
with feelings because It's a,that too is a process, I believe.
And with you, I like how you said,because it was original at first, and
it may not feel original because you'rethinking the feelings should align with
it already when it doesn't at that time.
(21:25):
It's going to take, it's still goingthrough the healing process, but I also
like what you said about that verse,be kind and tender hearted because the
opposite of it is unkind and hard hearted.
Bitterness, bitterness, anger.
What do we see so much of today?
Yeah.
And anger.
(21:46):
And, , some people don'teven realize they are angry.
And, but we still, we see thetell a tale signs a lot of there
they're scowled all up snap quick.
, like you were saying, , howyou were reacting to things.
And that's just how it is when aperson is angry and haven't had
(22:08):
that experience of forgiveness yet.
So that's that power, because we needthat power of forgiveness to actually
help us with the anger and help people.
Everybody needs this becauseit is so much anger out here.
There's real rage.
This people want, anything to step ontheir toe and they're ready to kill them.
(22:31):
And then it's, and it cansend you off to prison.
It can end your life.
Um, just the description of, youknow, some of those altercations and
like we all have, , had, or, , whathappened with your brother, but the
night before he was killed, I mean,when he was killed, I should say,
(22:52):
um, if you were not angry, if you hadstuff under control, that could make a
big difference is it's life or death.
And when we see the power offorgiveness and God saved us, right.
And We see actually repeated infront of us in our day to day lives.
(23:15):
We can be saving people saving ourselves,through allowing God to help us with that.
So I like how you coupled thatbecause most people thinking that
they need to do it by themselves.
Their feelings should bealigned with it right now.
And.
I, I like how you just debunk that that'snot true and you are a real life case
(23:40):
of losing a loved one still missing andshowing how the power of forgiveness can
work on that and how it changed your life.
And then you talked about.
Forgiving your mom too.
And we have another instance of blowingup the room, like we, who, again, you
(24:02):
affected a lot of people and I'm notsure if they knew what they were looking
at, but forgiveness is what we need.
That's why I named this show,a prisoner's pardon, because
we're looking for answer for.
Recidivism and most people wouldn'tthink about forgiveness or just a pardon
(24:25):
and I just want to coincide the two.
That is still accountability.
The young man who killed your brotherstill went to jail, still had an
account, but that doesn't negateforgiveness because some people may
think, I know you've probably seen it.
Oh, I thought you forgave me.
(24:45):
And they're thinking thatthere's no consequences with it.
If you forgive somebody, Oh, allthe consequences are wiped away.
What do you think about that?
I understand.
That's like, like even God, whenhe forgive you, he forgive you your
sins, but people may not forgive you.
You get what I'm saying?
I look at that.
I thought that once I gave my life toChrist, that people will forgive me.
(25:07):
It's still people working on forgivingme now because I was so, you know,
It's people that still see me andthey cautious and like they, you
know, you could tell, um, thatjust because you've been forgiven.
That don't mean everybody forgiveyou, you know, um, by the cross.
I thought that for a while, butyou still got, sometimes you still
(25:30):
got consequences, you know, um,sometimes you just be wiped clean.
It's a lot of people that havebeen, you know, the power of
price ain't nothing to play with.
It'll wipe you clean.
It'll wipe clean.
It'll wipe like everything clean.
But some people.
You know, God still, youdon't know how he, he moves.
Sometimes he is still, you'll be forgivenby him, but sometimes you still got
(25:52):
to, you know, pay the consequences.
Um, cause, uh, even when I, when I didstuff when I was younger, I remember.
I did that robbery when I wasyounger, but I got a chance to
ask their family for forgiveness.
You know, you like you talkthat last sentence and day,
but I still had to go to jail.
It was like, I stillhad, um, my time to do.
(26:13):
So I totally understand that.
So what do you think aboutwhen people say, well, not when
people say, but when the Biblesays, , the truth was set you free.
How would you.
How would you align that with forgiveness?
(26:34):
The truth will set you free.
Yeah, it's, um, I think that's personal.
Mm hmm.
I think that's your heart, you know,your, um, your sin condition, you know?
Mm hmm.
I think that's more what it'stalking about, your heart, your heart
issues, your sin, your sin condition.
(26:54):
It'll set you free.
Um, but does life continue?
Yeah, it's still gonna bedeath and the family, you know?
You still gonna get like, like I gottasay, my, my daughter was running away
from, she was 14 to, and I'm deep inthe ministry after she was running
away from 14, she was 18 years old.
You know, life don't stop.
(27:15):
It has set you free,
but, but just life don't stop, butyou have a piece God to give you.
It's just like a special piece thatyou have that the world don't give.
You know, the truth of sexuality is this.
It's true.
It's like, even when I lost mygrandmother, I didn't go crazy.
(27:36):
It was just like, it was, it was keepingme, you know, grew up with my grandma
stayed in my grandma's house off and on.
It was just a piece.
Um, along with my heart.
I like that.
, and also I was thinking too, though,when I'm talking about the truth of
set you free, because that power offorgiveness is setting you free as well.
(28:01):
And it's, um, it's giving you that peace.
So part of forgiveness is being,I believe, truthful, honest, and
looking at things the way they are.
And that's how I believe it doesto coincide with how the truth is.
(28:21):
And you're just not lying to yourselfabout just seeing yourself for.
The limitations that we have andthe things that we've done wrong
and not doubling down on it andjust trying to excuse it because
I've seen when you double down, you,you holding on, you holding on to
(28:42):
things and you can't get that trueforgiveness , having that truth and
having that forgiveness and that peace.
And it's, it's a valuable thing.
Peace is.
Everybody should know who's listeninghow precious pieces is, you know,
and God does says is no peacefor the wicked and it is true.
(29:03):
That's why I said, I think it's personal.
Yeah.
A prisoner's.
Pardon?
And that it, it's likeunforgiveness is like, you not free.
You know?
When you hold unforgiveness it'slike you hear people always say that.
It's like you drinkingpoison and you hope Mm-Hmm.
hoping other person die.
It's, it's true.
You be captive, man.
And it was like, man, dude,the change dropped off me once.
(29:27):
Uh, when you read the book, you know,people read the book How I was forgiving.
And I was forgiving other people.
You know, I was just, I wasjust running around like, man,
would you please forgive me?
If you, when you read the book, you'relike, I want you, I was going to my
uncle's aunties, friend girls thatI used to date and stuff like that.
Cause I wasn't in my right mind.
(29:47):
I was like, would you please,and I was actually hurting.
And, um, that's just what it was.
It was just a life of, please forgive me.
After he forgave me and I seen peopleand I seen how I was destructive, man.
I heard a lot of people.
I heard a lot of people and, um, buteverybody I met, they, they, they
(30:10):
forgave me and it was a bless at themoment and it was the power of it.
You know, I think that it's notjust forgiving somebody, but it's,
it's the power of forgivenessthat the cross, I think.
That's the difference between when weforgive as Christ followers, when we be
obedient to forgiveness, when God callsus to, we experienced the power of the
(30:31):
cross, the forgiveness of the cross.
And look how powerful it was, man.
The blood will be died, willbe dead and gone and the blood
will never lose its power.
It will still be forgiven.
So we deal with that.
When we obedient, God call us to say, Hey,forgive this person, or you better do it.
Free and set the other person freebecause that's what that's what it does.
(30:52):
It sets you free and another person free.
I like how You were sayinghere about you were hurting.
, what do you mean you were hurting?
How were you, you were talking aboutwhen I was going to the people?
Yeah.
You said you were hurting.
I was very violent.
I was a very violent person, you know,and, and by being the oldest and stuff
(31:17):
like that, I just felt obligated.
It was like, it was times I wanted outthe game, but I bought the equipment.
The gang life home GDs, youknow, I brought it home.
We was lynched mob renegades.
So I feel, I felt bad, uh, overthe years cause I brought it home
and I lost a brother to a murder.
(31:38):
I lost cousins to a murder, allthat type of, I just felt bad.
So when I was asking for forgiveness,I was hurting, man, but and God
allowed me to feel, um, uh, the pain,you know, of, of when you hurt people
and you, and you wanted forgiveness.
I can't explain it.
(31:59):
It was just, I just felt justlike, man, please forgive.
I remember I was in a family dollar.
It's a long story.
I couldn't find a job.
And I was, and my sister in lawcome up here where I said, man, I
ain't working in no family dollar.
Man, God was like, go.
Cause that would turn into my ministry.
He didn't know.
I remember one of myguys walked up in there.
(32:20):
This guy, I used to alwayslike bully like, I was, we was
cool, but I used to bully him.
And, and, uh, he walked in there oneday and I saw me and I walked up to him.
I said, Hey, Hey, what's up, man?
He's like, what's up base.
And I know he remembered, youknow, and I, and I looked at him.
And I say, man, what you, I said,look, I said, you know, the way
(32:42):
I used to treat you was wrong.
And man, I just startedweeping right in front of him.
I said, please forgive me, man.
I said, I wasn't in my right mind.
I said, but I acceptedChrist in my life, dude.
I was like, man, I said,I'm doing much man.
That brother looked at me.
And he was like, I forgiveyou, but I said, no, no, no.
Listen, I need you to forgiveme for the way I treated you.
(33:04):
And that there was the power of Christ.
It wasn't just forgiven.
It was the power of forgivenessin that, in the, in the aisle,
you know, and that brother huggedme and you could just feel it.
I just felt the Holyspirit all on both of us.
Cause he knew that it was authentic, youknow, cause I used to treat him wrong.
And I, and he told me, forgive me, man.
I hugged him.
I got his number to this day, you know.
(33:26):
I appreciate that because I, Iwant this to come out , talking
about the emotions of it too.
And what, what people should be seeingif they truly forgive someone is
like, it wasn't what, like you say,fake, , I wasn't like, Oh, forgive me.
And all that.
And then, you know, that's not,True forgiveness, what we're saying
(33:49):
here, and what you actually justput into words, you feel the pain.
Now of what you've done, you see theperson now and you feel pain about it
and you say what you did because, andyou were hurting, you said you had
bust out, you know, crying and stuff.
It is nothing wrong with that becauseit's showing that it was authentic
(34:12):
because it was, it was painful.
You now feel pain.
Something where before youwere desensitized, I would
say you were hard hearted.
Now you're tender hearted, tender heartedpeople when other people are hurt.
Yes.
So this is like audience.
This is a red flag here.
(34:32):
If you're not hurting and feelingpainful for what you've done,
I think you should rethink.
Look at this again, becausesomething is not right because
you should be tender hearted.
Tenderhearted people hurt.
They don't, they can't justdo something, , because.
(34:56):
It hurts them to dosomething that's wrong.
Um, so that's a big red flag that ifyou don't feel anything, it's nothing
like what's what's wrong with it.
You know, like we become so desensitizedwith this television and social
media and in not understanding the.
(35:17):
What's the, I would say transformationthat's going on inside of you, like
you transformed into what Christmade you to be, which is to be
tenderhearted, forgiving and kind.
That means you're not walking around allexposed and you're going to get hurt every
time somebody say something wrong to you.
And now it's funny, we'll saytenderhearted, but on the outside
(35:43):
of it, it's like you kind of,you think more thick skin.
You're not as sensitive.
As you were the wrong way, butyou're sensitive in the right way.
So, and then I like how you describe howthe power again is, I cannot negate this.
It is forgiveness.
True forgiveness is very powerful.
(36:05):
It changes people on the inside.
It, it changes.
When I say change people, it changesthe heart, the heart, the heart.
You become compassion.
I think like he can feel like that.
That's why Jesus was so compassionate.
He could feel, you know, and that's,that's what, that's what it's all about.
(36:28):
I can feel again.
That's what happened to me.
When I see him in that, that aislelike that, I feel compassion.
And I was just like, man, I just felt somuch compassion for him, but not just him.
It was a lot of people, man, that Iremember my uncle down there, man.
I used to, me and him got into it all thetime, but you know, I was more aggressive.
(36:51):
And, um, when I got, I'm telling you.
When I got saved, I seenhim at my mom's house, man.
I said, can I talk to y'all, man?
Christ was all on me, man.
Back.
I said, Hey, listen, I said, I love y'all.
He said, I love you too, man.
I love you too.
And, um, I said, but man, I said,look, please forgive me for the way
I was treated and I was like, and Icould see how I treated him in my mind.
(37:17):
You know, I can feel it.
And I was like, man, I could feel it.
And I was just like, and Ijust started to weep, man.
And it wasn't showing that I wasno punk or nothing like that.
It was just showinglike, I could feel again.
And I was like, I'm sorry.
And he was like, I forgive you, man.
And man, the way wehugged, it was the power.
(37:38):
It was the power.
See, forgiveness got power to, andso it'll change your heart, man.
I'm telling you.
And the way people, the way you seethings and the way people see you,
because it forgiveness not only affectsyou, but it affects every person.
Oh yeah.
I like how, again, you.
You, you described it perfectlyand how the whole room
(37:59):
changes and yeah, I was there.
So I was there myself before and, youknow, growing up in tough neighborhoods.
Right, Pastor.
It can be, you feel you gotta be tough.
And it's just, well, you'regoing to get ate up and that's
just, that was a survival.
It was about survival, but, , Iknow God showed me another way and
(38:24):
I'm sure he, like he showed you,you don't have to lose your heart.
You don't have to lose, um, That'ssensitive nature in because God
actually fights your battles for you.
I didn't realize that either.
So, and because , we're not built tofight those type of battles and stuff.
(38:45):
We do fight battles, but he,he actually does the work for
us and we just follow orders.
I should say, and then we're still intact.
We were able to.
, still be around people be kind hearted andtender, but also hold people accountable
as well and have that good balancewhere you don't lose sight of things.
(39:09):
So, and again, this, this, Icannot again, just tell you how.
powerful, how much we need forgiveness,true forgiveness, and but where
we don't see it around, you know,they always saying, be kind.
I don't know if you'vebeen hearing that lately.
Yeah, yeah.
You hear those words.
(39:30):
Yeah.
Then it's like, they don'ttell you how to be kind.
How do you just be kind?
Yeah.
And then he's like, okay, I'm gonna tryto be kind when you was trying to be kind.
Did you, were you able to do it?
No.
Good.
Be good.
All that type of, I think, I think.
I think I really thinkthat you should like Peter.
(39:51):
They was like, how manytimes you said 70 times 7.
The reason why Jesus said thatabout forgiveness, when you
forgive somebody said 70 times 7.
He's like, man, what?
They ask for more faith.
The reason why is becauseSanta's in the world, you know.
This world.
And so sin needs to be forgiven.
And so that, that is very important.
(40:12):
So even in my marriage, like the,the key words is always to my
wife, forgive me, I was wrong.
And this is not all the time, butit's, it's just saying, forgive me.
I was wrong because you ain't goingto always get it right in relation.
So them, them, the keywords and forgive me.
And then the other personshould be in place.
(40:33):
For forgiveness, because it'snot something you all you all the
time doing like hurting or saysomething wrong or I said something
too loud or something like that.
So I always be like, hey,I stopped myself instantly.
So the power of Christ, youkeep flowing in my life.
Because unforgiveness, it stops it.
So I, I'll be like, Heysweetheart, I apologize.
I was a little too loud with that.
(40:54):
And she, my wife would look at herand she'd be like, forgive like that.
And we get right back to, you know,letting Christ flow in our lives.
Because unforgiveness, it, it, it, itstops the flow of Christ in your life.
It goes back to what you weresaying, like with your mom.
You lose that intimacy, that openingthat you have, and you lose it with,
(41:19):
it's not even, I think, you know, somepeople think you can compartmentalize
it, you know, you'll put it in acertain section and it won't flow
into other relationships, but.
We're just not made that way.
Look at our blood.
Look how our blood flows through us.
You can't just keep itin your your hand part.
You can't just keep it in one body partthat forgiveness unforgiveness flows
(41:44):
into every relationship everything youdo and most effective most importantly,
I should say you lose that intimacywith Christ because he God is not one
to overlook stuff, he's gonna, he'sgonna bring it up, call it out, and
you're gonna be under this conviction,and once you're under that conviction,
(42:06):
that's when you feel that hurt.
And you, and you're actuallyseeing people and what they're
doing, what you've done to them.
And you see yourself as well.
I'm talking from experience as well.
You see your own sins and you'dbe like, I need forgiveness.
And so we, it's, it's actually, it hasto be, it's not just a one time thing.
(42:27):
So, and that's, I'm glad you brought up.
That how many times hesaid seven times tonight.
They had some more faith than itwas like, Lord, give us more faith.
It's actually like real.
You, you have to forgiveas Christ forgave you.
So, because, because even Jesus, he waslike, Lord, take this, this bitter cup.
(42:48):
It was a bit, it was, that cup was bitterbecause that unforgiveness is, it was
a bitter cup and he had to take on it.
He had to take on our sins because we wereunforgiving and, and, but by his blood,
we're forgiving, but the cup itself.
And it was unforgiveness, man.
We, we, we had Christ paid our debt, man.
(43:08):
So that cup that, what he went through,he suffered, his soul suffered.
And so all that has todo with unforgiveness.
Um, your soul suffers and that's yourmind, your emotions and your own will.
You'll even make bad decisions throughunforgiveness, just resting in your
bones and in your heart like that.
You'll, you'll be ableto take you off course.
(43:30):
And, but that's, so that's why.
Forgiveness is so important andotherwise, if you don't have this
forgiveness, you have this anger.
If you have this anger, I mean,this is most of your story, right?
That's most of.
Everybody's story, I would think Iwould, imagine that if someone's
(43:52):
going in and out and of jail, orthey're constantly just in trouble and
stuff, it's usually an anger issue.
And I'm and we see it every day.
Just look at these people look at people.
They're angry.
And some of the stuff is like overthis, why are you angry for, but it's,
(44:14):
it's not because of that one incident.
It's something that's been buildingother stuff and it's, you have to deal
with this is or it's what it's goingto escalate and it's not, can you
talk, I like how you brought up too,is that when you forgive other people.
(44:37):
It necessarily doesn't happen wherethe other person forgives you,
but do you still have this piece?
Yeah.
Okay.
Because you was obedientto what God told you.
Well, that's, that's the, it'sabout just being obedient.
It don't say that God didn't tell youthat the other person would change.
He just told you to, youjust have to do your part.
(44:59):
And sometimes people don't.
That the other hand don't receive, butyou did your part and that that's it.
That that's the key behind it.
It's just you, you doing God's will.
It's just like when Christ came,he, he, he was sent for everybody,
but he was, he was rejected.
He came for the Jews,but they rejected him.
He did his part.
He, he did his part.
(45:20):
The blood was still forthem as well, you know?
And so he did his part and, and wehave to just do our parts in life.
And sometimes the otherperson won't respond.
And you wish they do, but nowyou got to just move along.
Now, did you have anyproblem forgiving yourself?
(45:40):
Oh, absolutely.
For you, man, for years, for years.
Man, I was I think that'swhat the problem was.
And you know what?
Other people forgave me attimes and I may forgive myself.
It was a few people thatforgave me and I forgive myself.
And I was like, man, yougot to let that go, man.
You know, you'd be likeit works that way as well.
(46:01):
But I had, I had a hugeproblem with forgiving myself.
And, uh, when I had been forgiven,even with God, like, like, how could
he forgive me for all the stuff I did?
I can't even talk about it.
I'd be in prison, but I waslike, how could he forgive me?
And so, you know, the devil alwaystry to manipulate unforgiveness,
(46:25):
you know, or forgiveness rather.
He, he always tried tomanipulate forgiveness.
That comes from Christ, um, like,no, you ain't worthy and all
that, but, but he found me worthy.
And so that is what it is.
And I stand on that today.
And I think, do you think this was partof when you, my mind is made up, you
(46:47):
were saying when you finally got yourmind made up, were you at that point too?
Getting past forgiving yourselfand being able to forgive
yourself and just do the work.
What was going on there?
Yeah, I was ready.
Once my mind was made up,I was ready for anything.
That's just what it was.
It was like, I was, Iwas like, I knew my mind.
(47:09):
It was somethingdifferent that took place.
Cause usually when I got, when I was like,I was going to do something, I had my foot
one in the world and one in the church,one in the program and one in the world.
And sometimes I had both feet in,but I still entertain those thoughts
that weren't, weren't right.
And I would let you know,I, I would you, whatever you
(47:29):
entertain becomes your reality.
So sometimes I kind of entertain Youknow, smoking cigarettes again, I get
out, go have sex, all that type of stuff.
Entertain the morning and he said,just overtake me as it would anybody
and you know, and I'd like topoint that out to people because
(47:51):
I see so many times that we, we.
We forget that we can't do nothingwithout Christ and how powerful
sin is, but forgiveness ispowerful, more powerful than sin.
And when we start forgivingpeople, we can start today
(48:13):
forgiving yourself, having that intimaterelationship with God, having him forgive.
You, did you ask himfor forgiveness as well?
How did that go?
I see what a made up mind, justreading the scriptures, Jesus, his
life showed us that we struggled, youknow, cause we got to give up some
(48:34):
things and he had to give up his life.
And at one point at three times, hesaid, father, take this cup away from me.
But right after that, he said, notmy will, but your will be done.
So it was, I was trapped between both.
He was showing us Our life because he hadon the body put on a body and he showed
us our struggle and it's the same way.
I got to give up this.
That's why a lot of people saybecause it's uh, they got to give up
(48:58):
some things and it was a struggle.
But once I, once I made my mind up,just like Christ, he did, he said,
not my will, your will be done.
That was the last part when he did it3 times and it took him to the cross.
And see, that's what I told you.
Um, well, I don't know if I told you ornot, but we had a sidebar, but it was a
(49:19):
lot of scholars believe that the gardenof Gethsemane was the most powerful
place, um, because it's the place wherehe made up his mind to go to the cross.
And so.
It was the same way, a made up mindto take you where you need to be.
And so made my mind up and it tookme to the cross and I confessed.
(49:40):
I was like, that's when I was honest.
I was like, Lord, I'm a sinner.
I'm in need of grace.
And, and I'm telling you, man,I never, my mind was made up.
And it was open.
I promise you, I ain't been back sinceI had, I ain't been back since I'm
talking about, I haven't been backsince, since 2000, December 10th, 2012.
(50:02):
I haven't been back sincecause I put both feet in him.
I made my mind.
I said, Lord, I'm done.
I said, use me.
You know, I said, useme Lord for your glory.
I was like, ah, I don'twant to go back no more.
And that was it.
And the power of forgivenesscame, boom, it hit me.
And I knew I was free and I wept and wept.
(50:23):
Man, he just let me knowthat I was forgiven, man.
And it, and it showed cause man, alltype of doors start opening for me, man.
I was about to go into that because yousaid, um, a very important thing when
everybody thinks you feel like you, um,given up a lot, but do you gain more?
(50:47):
Did you gain?
Oh, that's a, that's a,that's the deception.
That is, that's the deception that the.
Want us to be like, hold on to ourpast because ain't nothing there.
It was nothing there.
Mm-Hmm.
. And I was like, you know, the, the, the,the sex drugs kicking it party, all that.
It ain't even worth compared to what?
(51:07):
The, what?
He opened doors for me, man.
I, he, the first time, the first,so when I did that, I went on a
ministry trip and um, I, we gaveour testimony, I had to give my
testimony this one church way up north.
All right, this guy walked up tome and he described his experience.
When he first got saved, when God forgavehim of all his sins, he told me, he
(51:30):
said, when that, when I received Christthat day, he forgave me of all my sins.
He said, I ain't felt the Holyspirit like this in years, young man.
And he said, he said, um, God toldme to tell you, you need to go back
to school and I'm gonna pay for it.
And, um, it was the power of forgivenessthat paid for my first year of school.
And, and so when I went back to the, tothe treatment center, I came back with
(51:51):
a check to go back to school becausethey knew how much it cost my books and
all that, and they put it in the safeand this time, God to put something
before me so I won't run no more.
Okay.
And so all that, I, I was in a programI had, I was waiting to, uh, get out of
this just so I can go back to school.
It was paid for.
That's what I'm talking about.
(52:12):
Thank you for, , exposing that lieand, , feeling like you're going to
lose so much when actually you'regoing to gain right in its way.
It's priceless.
And, and right now you'reactually being cheated.
Right?
When you think you're, you, when you thinkyou're doing good and you, you can't just
(52:33):
give that up and you're not gonna make it.
You know?
And I hope someone that's listeningand hear that right now, um, at this
moment that they feel like they're okay.
I don't wanna give thisand that up, right?
We are, we are here to tell you thattrust you, trust you gotta gain way more.
And once you understand the, the, thepricelessness of it, you're going to
(52:57):
be like, man, I've been cheating allthis time and I've been faked out
and I'm going to tell you that.
And when I had, like, when I did that,it was a girl that was kind to me, man.
I mean, she was there the whole time,but once I checked into the ministry,
when God had called me in, I had bothfeet in my mind, God told me that she
(53:18):
couldn't go and it broke my heart.
And my wife noticed it broke,but she didn't do, you know,
she, she, she didn't understand.
And I was like, but I came into her lifemanipulative and God told me it's done.
We're done with that.
And, uh, it changed everything.
And once I, I let, I finally letthat go and cause it took me a while,
(53:39):
man, cause I couldn't understand it.
But then when I did doit, I did it by faith.
I didn't, I didn't go off my feelings.
God was like, I need you to do this now.
It was like an urgent call in my spirit.
And I just let her know, youknow, and I just stayed away.
I was like, she couldn't understand it,but I'm going to tell you I did that.
I went through the repercussions of that.
(54:01):
She was calling mad in the center,you know, doing stuff, saying stuff.
It was crazy.
But my wife came after that.
I promised it.
Yup.
Somebody to help me carry thevision that God called me to.
Yup.
Cause when you give, when you separateyourself, when you, uh, he said,
he who keeps his life will lose it.
But he who loses his life forme, Jesus said, we'll find it.
(54:24):
And that's what it was.
And I'm telling you what, themore you, you, you give up things
in your life, the things that.
That don't mean you no good man,or the thing, it can be some good
things sometime in your life.
Don't always think it's the bad things.
A lot of people always think it'sthe bad things God coming after.
But it's the good things,because there was some time I
had to give up a radio station.
(54:45):
I was teaching on a radio station.
I heard God say, clear asday, that give that up.
And I need you to stop doing thisover here in this ministry part.
And these were good things.
And I gave him up and heopened a door for me over here.
And I was like, Oh, I see why.
So it's not always bad thingsbecause that's what it can be.
Some, some things thatare beneficial as well.
(55:07):
But when God say, give it up,give it up because he has a
perfect plan for your life.
It's a perfect plan.
So that means we can't.
Add to it or take away from it.
Well, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for this.
Um, we're about to wrap this up.
And thank you for just revealing.
I don't want to call them secret things.
(55:27):
I want to call them things that is hidden.
They're treasures that.
We need to know about when we thinkingabout giving up things for God and how,
, forgiveness plays a big part of you.
The biggest part, I believe of youbeing able to step away from, , the
(55:49):
lifestyle you had before that sentyou back and forth to prison, had
you under those influences andhad you spiraling down in the fun.
And it's like, I know we You know,I look at this every day and it's, I
believe it's a spiritual thing whenwe hold on to things that we know.
(56:12):
It's no good.
We see where we at and westill want to hold on to it.
And again, just thank you telling ushow it was for you to separate from
those things and how benefits thatyou didn't have before started coming
and how your wife came after that.
It's like you have to getthrough this test in time.
I'm pretty sure going back towhat you say, it don't feel good.
(56:37):
Oh, your feelings don'tusually be there yet.
It's faith.
This is faith, not feelings.
Okay.
Okay.
Faith over feelings.
I like that one.
So is there anything else youwant to tell the audience,
, we mentioned your book,80 Barry white voices.
Um, can they get it on Amazon or?
(56:58):
Yes, they can get it on 80 BarryWhite Voices, Robert Dean Bell,
it's on Amazon now and it's cheap.
Everybody's like, man, you got it cheap.
It's 14.
99, but it's a, it's an impactful read.
It's engaging.
Teenagers should read this book.
You know, uh, it's really likea 00, you know, a 007 start.
It just start off like action packed.
(57:20):
You will see the story, man.
I'm telling you, it's a great book.
1499.
Plus I want to shout out to my church,Life Church, Milwaukee, and I'm here on
56th and Burlap, our service times at 9 30and 11 AM, right on 56th and Burlap, Life
Church, Milwaukee, 9 o'clock services.
And I'm here to tell youthat he is who we say he is.
(57:42):
Christ Jesus is who we say he is.
All right, I thank you so much forthat shout out and a great show again.
I really don't get enough times totalk about forgiveness, but your story
and what you went through was perfect.
And you just really gave usthe details about forgiveness.
(58:04):
Life feelings, how you feel, howyou can get cheated, how, how was
worth it and just how far you'vecome and how God has blessed you.
But I thank you again for joining me.
Thank you audience for listening and mayyou have a week filled with blessings.
Hello everyone.
And welcome to aprisoner's part in podcast.
I'm your host Meechie J.
I'm sure everyone has heard about thelatest incident of a shooting in Georgia.
This is where a young person.
Took upon himself to, kill anumber of his fellow classmates.
What is all of us stemming from?
(00:39):
I say it's anger.
We're seeing so much anger in our society.
We see it in road rage.
We see it in offices.
We see it at home.
Work.
We're see it.
Our church.
We're seeing it in ourselves.
We're just seeing it everywhere.
And this is what leadsto why a lot of people.
(01:03):
Are in prison.
And when even when they get out,they're still having this anger.
So, what do we do about this?
That is what a prisoner'spardon podcast is all about.
It's about a pardon?
A pardon is an act of forgiveness.
And that's how we counteract anger.
(01:25):
We do it with forgiveness.
I'm pretty sure most of us have been told.
We need to forget.
But.
Did they tell you how to do it?
Did they explain to you that.
Forgiven someone doesn't necessarilymean that there's no accountability.
We're going to be talking about howto forgive someone for one of the most
(01:49):
hardest things to forgive a person for.
Today we're going tohave as a guest is Mr.
Robert Dean.
, he is a Milwaukee native.
He is a, a O D a counselor.
He's actually now a pastor as well.
He's a husband, father.
Business owner, and now he is an authorand we're going to be talking to him
(02:13):
about his book because he does talk aboutforgiveness . Welcome pastor bell.
How you doing?
Me I'm doing great.
I have you now on the show withme to talk about your new book.
80 Barry white voices, I want youto go into detail about the title.
You guys, I have the book and I've alreadyread it and I just highly recommend it to
(02:35):
the audience because it's going to giveyou a good insight , just a lot of things
in life and how you can overcome it.
But let's tell us more about you.
Oh, well, my, my name is Robert bill.
Like you said, I'm born and raised here.
, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin atthe moment, I'm a pastor.
I'm the pastor of light church,Milwaukee here on 56 and burlock.
(02:55):
I'm a proud and happy husband, uh,Latrice bill, , seven children.
Um, just, a new life.
Oh, yeah.
I know it's a new lifebecause I read your book.
I went through everything and, , yes,it's definitely a new life and looking
at you now, most people wouldn't thinkthat you've been there, but I'm here
(03:17):
to tell you, no, that's not the case.
Yes.
But tell us more about.
Why did you name the book80 Barry White Voices?
I named the book 80 Barry WhiteVoices because it is what I heard.
It was the voice of Godthat, that changed my life.
And it's really not giving it away.
(03:37):
You can still get the book andyou're gonna be like blown away.
But it was, it was what I heard from God.
And it sounded like.
80 barely white voices andeverybody know barely white.
He was a singer.
He had a real deep voice, you know,and I'm talking about it was 80, but
it was a gentle 80, very white voicesthat I heard that changed my life.
(03:58):
Hmm.
Okay.
All right.
Tell us more about, , I know wedon't want to give the book away,
but, , we had a tragic thing happen.
You're leaving.
It was your younger brother.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause you're the oldest, right?
Yes.
Okay.
And he got killed and you had to goto court and you spoke some about
(04:21):
forgiving the killer of your brother, just enlighten us a little bit more.
What led to that?
Oh, well, I was in prison.
I was getting out two weeks later andyou know, when you go on a journey, see
if you can just keep being a knuckleheador you can get to catch yourself.
But I've always been a cat thatwas curious about books and getting
around people that were knowledgeable.
I always hunt around the older crowd,even though I was street, straight street.
(04:44):
Um, this is one of those times.
It's like, man, I gottaget my head together, man.
And I was getting out two weeks later.
I remember I was getting out February28th and my brother was murdered
February 12th and it happened.
And this is when I was like comingdeep out of the game, you know, things
were changing in my life, um, fora point because I went back, but.
(05:09):
At that moment in my life, God hadbeen speaking to me like I just didn't
want to be in the streets no more.
I was like, I want to be a grown man.
I want to do grown man things.
And once I get, I got that newsFebruary 12th, they called me,
um, to the office that night.
You know, usually they wait, theydon't tell you nothing because
they don't want no riots totake place and nobody go crazy.
(05:31):
So they'll wait till everybodygo to sleep or whatever.
But this particular day, it was early.
Time and they called me down and said,um, that my brother was murdered, you
know, uh, at a, at a local, at a bar.
And there was over a girl, the otherguy, girl liked it, my brother.
And it was, it was crazy.
It was just, it made me so mad, butonce I, uh, but I just stayed positive.
(05:56):
Did I want to kill dude?
Did I want to go back to the old life?
Absolutely.
But it was like, God had hishands on me and, um, I got out.
Then they, I think they finally foundhim weeks later and, um, probably a
month, a couple of months out after Igot, I don't know, in Tennessee, brought
him back and he was, uh, facing trial.
(06:17):
Wow.
That happened pretty quick.
You know, a lot of times they don'tfind the person so now did you know him?
No, I, most of his family though,everybody was like, yeah, I was pretty
known in the streets, even to this day.
And, um, I walked in, our familysitting on this side, and they
family sitting on this side.
And there was, uh, it was like, it wasa few cats like, Oh, what's up, babes?
(06:40):
I was like, hey, what's up, man?
And it was crazy.
They didn't even know how to feel.
And, and I, you know, I sat on the sidewith my family, and we went from there.
And, um, just remember my family going up.
And everybody was like, you need to, Ihope you suffer, you know, stuff like
that, but I, I didn't feel none of that.
(07:02):
I was, I was.
I didn't, I couldn'teven explain the feeling.
God had me at peace.
He already told me what to say.
And, um, I knew I had to beopposite of what was being said.
And so when I got on the stand, I talkedabout my brother and how much I love them.
And you know, a little stuff whenwe was kids, cause I watched all of
them, you know, I'm the oldest outof five boys and one girl, um, I told
(07:26):
them, I said, man, I miss my brother.
Then at one point I just looked at him.
I said, man, look, I forgive you, man.
And I was like, why are you in there?
I was like, you know,getting your word, man.
I said, get in your word.
I was like, cause Christis your only hope.
And I said, he gonna, he is peace, man.
Cause you're going to need a man.
And I was like, God bless you, brother.
And that was it.
(07:46):
I walked off court and peoplewere stopping me and like, man,
like the lawyer, that was, itwas a lawyer sitting in there.
She was like, I never heardnobody, you know, do that.
And you can feel the power of forgiveness.
In the room, it wasn't just forgiveness,but it was the power of interesting , I
like what you said about, it's a powerin the room was filled with it and God
(08:11):
was working on you and you couldn't havedone that in my estimation by yourself.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
So you said God was doing,a work on you, right?
Yeah.
I've noticed because of goingthrough forgiveness myself, that
this work that he's doing inside.
(08:34):
Is.
Where he shows you yourself.
The work he's doing is wherehe's showing you your real self.
And where you.
Actually our.
In life in a lot of timesbecause of what's going on,
the speed of what's going on.
You never really sit down.
(08:55):
And get a chance toreally look at yourself.
And you can't.
Really look at yourself, how youneed to, unless you have help.
For instance, to look atyourself, you need a mirror.
And when God is working on youat this point, He is showing.
The inside of you.
That's part of the work that he's doing.
(09:16):
In that's needed whenyou're going through.
This process of forgiveness.
Where he has to help you.
So You tell him getting your word whileyou in there is something you had to do or
you were doing that prepared you for this.
So it's a place you have been yourself.
(09:37):
So you kind of sawyourself in that person.
A lot of us think that when we're betterthan other people at times and we forget.
So God has a way of bringingus back to our senses.
, so to speak, , and getting us in thatplace and where we can see ourselves and,
(09:58):
, I see your, I know this is a podcastand people can't see right now and it's
a powerful moment right now for you.
Uh, you're reflecting onthat in the power of guys.
So looking at yourcharacter from before and.
What you did then wasis totally different.
(10:19):
It was not the same person.
Yeah, people like people used to be mymom's, you know, it hurted my heart.
Once I got saved, you know, youknow, I accepted Christ in my
life and I have to both feet in.
I had a my mind was made up.
It was I was done and I made my mindup and man, it transformed my heart.
(10:40):
I made up mine is powerful and I was done.
But I but You know, makingup your mind, um, got me into
relationships that were broken.
Got me back into relationshipsthat were broken.
And it was my mother, youknow, I was the oldest.
So she would tell me secrets andstuff when we was little, you
know, in abusive relationships.
So I knew how to get out thehouse and all that type of stuff.
(11:03):
Like who to call and stuff, butall that stopped in my old life.
But now when I got.
Back into relationship with my mom's,you know, until my once I got my life
right with Christ, my mom startedopening it back up again to me because
they're all less taken from me.
So we share things.
And one day we were sitting in ourhouse one day and I guess the old
(11:24):
picture came up and she was like, yeah.
And then all my guys,everybody said the same thing.
They was like, man, they was like, man,cast was scared when you came around, man.
It was like, and my mama openedup her mouth and said, me too.
She was like, I shouldbe scared of you, man.
That broke my heart, man.
I was like, I didn't even know.
Cause I used to snap, youknow, I used to go crazy, man.
(11:45):
You know, not meeting my real father.
Everybody else had an opportunity forthat in my family, but I was really hurt
over the years and never met my realfather and I should take it out on my
mom's, you know, we throw dope together.
Uh, just, she was a young mother.
She was 21 with six kids.
I had to think back.
I was like, wow.
(12:06):
I said 21 with six kids and Iactually when she was saying she
was like, no, I love my kids.
But what I'm saying is that sheopened up and when she said that
to me, it broke my heart, man.
She said she was scared of me.
And I, I seen that times,you know, I saw it.
I never put my hands on my mother, butthe way I would, you know, flex up.
(12:26):
Like, cause I ain't no little guy,the way I would flex up and, and the
whole house would clear or whereverI was, people would just clear
out cause I had this anger, man.
And when she said that,that broke my heart.
And that was afterwards, right?
No, this was before, like,before I got saved, like.
(12:48):
Okay.
Yeah, so when I got saved,she opened back up to me.
You know, when you, when you cussing yourmother out, being crazy, acting crazy
and all that, your parents shut down onyou, you know, they, they start revealing
things that they have for you, youknow, and um, All that shut down on me.
And so now that I'm saying my mother, wetalk, it's just like, I'm a kid again.
(13:11):
She opened up by, she tells me if shehad just called me, like, guess what?
You know, that, that Avenue has beenopened up, but when you disrespectful to
your parents, which is an authoritativelevel, them doors close on you.
So a lot of kids out here aremissing out on value, value, valuable
conversations because of the disrespect.
(13:31):
And I want to, , just actuallyrefer that back to forgiveness
and it's, , reconciliation,, reconciling those relationships.
And like you just said, if you don't havethat forgiveness, there's no opening,
there's no intimate conversations.
(13:55):
And you I believe you were havingthose intimate conversations
while you were in prison with God.
And to be able to forgive, youhave to not just know about God.
You have to know God and havethose intimate conversations.
And, um, so many of us miss that becauseI've seen where he's more apt to listen
(14:23):
to us than we are to talk to him.
And being who he is.
, that's a great opportunity.
And It's valuable.
He's the creator of the universe andhe's opening up opportunities for us to
have these conversations with him and.
And that was, that was a significant thingyou did and it showed that, that there
(14:48):
was things going on that you were , inthe business of renewing your mind.
Yeah.
Because I was looking into this latelyabout transforming and renewing your mind.
You have to be.
First transform before youcan even renew your mind.
So now you're doing this and renewingyour mind was part of Lee, how
(15:13):
you were able to forgive exactly.
And then it was so powerful.
I believe it's, it's, it's.
It's still having an impact just likenow our, our conversation now, and
I'm pretty sure everybody that wasin that courtroom was impacted by it
because you don't see that every day.
So they're still being impacted by it.
(15:36):
I'm pretty sure they toldsomebody and what you did was.
Very, um, that was, it was God inthat room and you were being used
in, , the conversations you hadafter that and how, what you're
saying now with your, your mom, youwere able to, reconcile with her.
My belief is you first needto reconcile with God first
(15:59):
before all other relationships.
I think that my forgiveness thatGod put on my life to help me when
it came to forgiving others whenI when I knew that I was forgiven.
I knew that out in the book, butit was one time like with my mom's.
Two sections.
It's like when my mom's, I wasgraduating from, uh, adult and teen
(16:21):
challenges, a ministry program.
And I was graduating, shecame and my two children came.
I wasn't married at the time.
And, um, she's getting my lifetogether, but, but my mind was made up.
And I remember grabbing the micand they told me, and it's like 200
people in the room, they said, Hey.
They said, um, uh, Robert, just,you know, give you a testimony.
Like that's all cool.
(16:42):
I grabbed a mic instantly.
I knew the Holy spirit waslike, apologize to your mother.
And we have been kicking it.
I've been saying it like, mom,forgive me, you know, for the way
I used to talk to you and all that.
But this day it was like, Authentic.
And I said she was sittingin the back of the room.
It's like 200 people, man.
She's sitting in the backwith my two children.
And I said, man, before I say mytestimony, I just want to say,
(17:04):
I said, I'm going to tell mymother, mom, please forgive me.
And I could barely breathe.
Like, I was like, mom, pleaseforgive me for the way I treated you.
I said, you didn't deserve none ofthat, you know, because I'm honored
that your father and mother don't comewith stipulations because some people
think because your mom on drugs oryour mom or your dad or you got to
(17:24):
write, uh, don't come with stipulation.
And, uh, I was like,mom, please forgive me.
And, uh, and I'll never forget.
I just, and it was quiet and people, thepower of forgiveness came in the room.
They understood the power of it becauseI was from the back of the room.
She said, I forgive you, Robert,like that, man, the whole place.
erupted, praising God, crying.
(17:48):
People was just crying all over.
It was the power of forgiveness.
Um, and she forgave me.
And, um, but another time, um,the forgive, no, just helping me.
I started to understandforgiveness as I went along.
And you know, it was a, it was somebody,it was people that have done things to me
(18:08):
in my life that I couldn't forgive, man.
And I was like, God, howdo you forgive somebody?
I was like, cause they keep comingup, you know, the person's face
keep coming up the next day.
And God told me one day, literally,he said, listen, Forgiveness
don't come with feelings.
Oh man.
Mic drop.
(18:30):
Just told me straight out.
It was a Ephesians 4 32.
It talks about forgiveness, butit also has all the feelings
that you have in the beginning.
And it said, you know, showpeople kindness and, um, it
says, show people kindness.
Here it is right here.
It says, uh, and be kind toone another, tender heart,
(18:54):
just as God in Christ.
forgave you.
And so you look at the top partof saying, be kind to one another
and be tenderhearted and seek.
And when you don't forgive, ittakes that from your heart, the
kindness and being tenderhearted.
You, when you don't forgive, it's tryingto show you what your heart experiences
outside of forgiveness, the first part.
(19:15):
And it said, just know, be kind andtenderhearted to one another, just
as God in Christ Jesus forgave you.
And so I took that verse.
And I'm telling you, I forgave,because I not only hurt people, you'll
see in the book, but it was people.
And I, it was times I couldn'tsleep like for, for what people did.
(19:38):
And I took this verse and I said,Lord, I forgive this person just
like you forgave me in Christ Jesus.
And I said, I forgive.
And it didn't come with feelings.
And the next day, the same feeling come,I had the same feeling about the person.
And I'm telling you, and, andwhat God taught me in that moment,
he said, just say forgiven.
And I was like, because what meand you did was real because at
(20:00):
that moment, it was actually real.
What I went through, what I, theforgiveness I did, but the next day it
comes up, it don't feel like you did it.
You didn't do it right.
You like, no, God toldme like you did it right.
And so soon as that person probably yourmind at the devil, because the devil keep
bringing it up, you say, forgive him.
And then you might feel this way, but.
You speak this way, you respondthis way outside of feelings.
(20:24):
And man, I'm telling you, it's peoplethat I have literally , forgave
people and the wound got so it'sno longer open anymore in my life.
It's um, it's closed up, it healed andit got stitches and it's just a scar now.
And, um, it's a testimony forme because, and that's what I,
(20:44):
that's, I just want everybody tounderstand feelings don't come.
But I mean, forgiveness don't come byfeelings, but it comes by, um, with you,
your trust, uh, forgiveness through theword of God, because he forgave you.
I like how you, you put that in.
Yes.
That's definitely was a mic dropto say forgiveness doesn't come
(21:04):
with feelings because It's a,that too is a process, I believe.
And with you, I like how you said,because it was original at first, and
it may not feel original because you'rethinking the feelings should align with
it already when it doesn't at that time.
(21:25):
It's going to take, it's still goingthrough the healing process, but I also
like what you said about that verse,be kind and tender hearted because the
opposite of it is unkind and hard hearted.
Bitterness, bitterness, anger.
What do we see so much of today?
Yeah.
And anger.
(21:46):
And, , some people don'teven realize they are angry.
And, but we still, we see thetell a tale signs a lot of there
they're scowled all up snap quick.
, like you were saying, , howyou were reacting to things.
And that's just how it is when aperson is angry and haven't had
(22:08):
that experience of forgiveness yet.
So that's that power, because we needthat power of forgiveness to actually
help us with the anger and help people.
Everybody needs this becauseit is so much anger out here.
There's real rage.
This people want, anything to step ontheir toe and they're ready to kill them.
(22:31):
And then it's, and it cansend you off to prison.
It can end your life.
Um, just the description of, youknow, some of those altercations and
like we all have, , had, or, , whathappened with your brother, but the
night before he was killed, I mean,when he was killed, I should say,
(22:52):
um, if you were not angry, if you hadstuff under control, that could make a
big difference is it's life or death.
And when we see the power offorgiveness and God saved us, right.
And We see actually repeated infront of us in our day to day lives.
(23:15):
We can be saving people saving ourselves,through allowing God to help us with that.
So I like how you coupled thatbecause most people thinking that
they need to do it by themselves.
Their feelings should bealigned with it right now.
And.
I, I like how you just debunk that that'snot true and you are a real life case
(23:40):
of losing a loved one still missing andshowing how the power of forgiveness can
work on that and how it changed your life.
And then you talked about.
Forgiving your mom too.
And we have another instance of blowingup the room, like we, who, again, you
(24:02):
affected a lot of people and I'm notsure if they knew what they were looking
at, but forgiveness is what we need.
That's why I named this show,a prisoner's pardon, because
we're looking for answer for.
Recidivism and most people wouldn'tthink about forgiveness or just a pardon
(24:25):
and I just want to coincide the two.
That is still accountability.
The young man who killed your brotherstill went to jail, still had an
account, but that doesn't negateforgiveness because some people may
think, I know you've probably seen it.
Oh, I thought you forgave me.
(24:45):
And they're thinking thatthere's no consequences with it.
If you forgive somebody, Oh, allthe consequences are wiped away.
What do you think about that?
I understand.
That's like, like even God, whenhe forgive you, he forgive you your
sins, but people may not forgive you.
You get what I'm saying?
I look at that.
I thought that once I gave my life toChrist, that people will forgive me.
(25:07):
It's still people working on forgivingme now because I was so, you know,
It's people that still see me andthey cautious and like they, you
know, you could tell, um, thatjust because you've been forgiven.
That don't mean everybody forgiveyou, you know, um, by the cross.
I thought that for a while, butyou still got, sometimes you still
(25:30):
got consequences, you know, um,sometimes you just be wiped clean.
It's a lot of people that havebeen, you know, the power of
price ain't nothing to play with.
It'll wipe you clean.
It'll wipe clean.
It'll wipe like everything clean.
But some people.
You know, God still, youdon't know how he, he moves.
Sometimes he is still, you'll be forgivenby him, but sometimes you still got
(25:52):
to, you know, pay the consequences.
Um, cause, uh, even when I, when I didstuff when I was younger, I remember.
I did that robbery when I wasyounger, but I got a chance to
ask their family for forgiveness.
You know, you like you talkthat last sentence and day,
but I still had to go to jail.
It was like, I stillhad, um, my time to do.
(26:13):
So I totally understand that.
So what do you think aboutwhen people say, well, not when
people say, but when the Biblesays, , the truth was set you free.
How would you.
How would you align that with forgiveness?
(26:34):
The truth will set you free.
Yeah, it's, um, I think that's personal.
Mm hmm.
I think that's your heart, you know,your, um, your sin condition, you know?
Mm hmm.
I think that's more what it'stalking about, your heart, your heart
issues, your sin, your sin condition.
(26:54):
It'll set you free.
Um, but does life continue?
Yeah, it's still gonna bedeath and the family, you know?
You still gonna get like, like I gottasay, my, my daughter was running away
from, she was 14 to, and I'm deep inthe ministry after she was running
away from 14, she was 18 years old.
You know, life don't stop.
(27:15):
It has set you free,
but, but just life don't stop, butyou have a piece God to give you.
It's just like a special piece thatyou have that the world don't give.
You know, the truth of sexuality is this.
It's true.
It's like, even when I lost mygrandmother, I didn't go crazy.
(27:36):
It was just like, it was, it was keepingme, you know, grew up with my grandma
stayed in my grandma's house off and on.
It was just a piece.
Um, along with my heart.
I like that.
, and also I was thinking too, though,when I'm talking about the truth of
set you free, because that power offorgiveness is setting you free as well.
(28:01):
And it's, um, it's giving you that peace.
So part of forgiveness is being,I believe, truthful, honest, and
looking at things the way they are.
And that's how I believe it doesto coincide with how the truth is.
(28:21):
And you're just not lying to yourselfabout just seeing yourself for.
The limitations that we have andthe things that we've done wrong
and not doubling down on it andjust trying to excuse it because
I've seen when you double down, you,you holding on, you holding on to
(28:42):
things and you can't get that trueforgiveness , having that truth and
having that forgiveness and that peace.
And it's, it's a valuable thing.
Peace is.
Everybody should know who's listeninghow precious pieces is, you know,
and God does says is no peacefor the wicked and it is true.
(29:03):
That's why I said, I think it's personal.
Yeah.
A prisoner's.
Pardon?
And that it, it's likeunforgiveness is like, you not free.
You know?
When you hold unforgiveness it'slike you hear people always say that.
It's like you drinkingpoison and you hope Mm-Hmm.
hoping other person die.
It's, it's true.
You be captive, man.
And it was like, man, dude,the change dropped off me once.
(29:27):
Uh, when you read the book, you know,people read the book How I was forgiving.
And I was forgiving other people.
You know, I was just, I wasjust running around like, man,
would you please forgive me?
If you, when you read the book, you'relike, I want you, I was going to my
uncle's aunties, friend girls thatI used to date and stuff like that.
Cause I wasn't in my right mind.
(29:47):
I was like, would you please,and I was actually hurting.
And, um, that's just what it was.
It was just a life of, please forgive me.
After he forgave me and I seen peopleand I seen how I was destructive, man.
I heard a lot of people.
I heard a lot of people and, um, buteverybody I met, they, they, they
(30:10):
forgave me and it was a bless at themoment and it was the power of it.
You know, I think that it's notjust forgiving somebody, but it's,
it's the power of forgivenessthat the cross, I think.
That's the difference between when weforgive as Christ followers, when we be
obedient to forgiveness, when God callsus to, we experienced the power of the
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cross, the forgiveness of the cross.
And look how powerful it was, man.
The blood will be died, willbe dead and gone and the blood
will never lose its power.
It will still be forgiven.
So we deal with that.
When we obedient, God call us to say, Hey,forgive this person, or you better do it.
Free and set the other person freebecause that's what that's what it does.
(30:52):
It sets you free and another person free.
I like how You were sayinghere about you were hurting.
, what do you mean you were hurting?
How were you, you were talking aboutwhen I was going to the people?
Yeah.
You said you were hurting.
I was very violent.
I was a very violent person, you know,and, and by being the oldest and stuff
(31:17):
like that, I just felt obligated.
It was like, it was times I wanted outthe game, but I bought the equipment.
The gang life home GDs, youknow, I brought it home.
We was lynched mob renegades.
So I feel, I felt bad, uh, overthe years cause I brought it home
and I lost a brother to a murder.
(31:38):
I lost cousins to a murder, allthat type of, I just felt bad.
So when I was asking for forgiveness,I was hurting, man, but and God
allowed me to feel, um, uh, the pain,you know, of, of when you hurt people
and you, and you wanted forgiveness.
I can't explain it.
(31:59):
It was just, I just felt justlike, man, please forgive.
I remember I was in a family dollar.
It's a long story.
I couldn't find a job.
And I was, and my sister in lawcome up here where I said, man, I
ain't working in no family dollar.
Man, God was like, go.
Cause that would turn into my ministry.
He didn't know.
I remember one of myguys walked up in there.
(32:20):
This guy, I used to alwayslike bully like, I was, we was
cool, but I used to bully him.
And, and, uh, he walked in there oneday and I saw me and I walked up to him.
I said, Hey, Hey, what's up, man?
He's like, what's up base.
And I know he remembered, youknow, and I, and I looked at him.
And I say, man, what you, I said,look, I said, you know, the way
(32:42):
I used to treat you was wrong.
And man, I just startedweeping right in front of him.
I said, please forgive me, man.
I said, I wasn't in my right mind.
I said, but I acceptedChrist in my life, dude.
I was like, man, I said,I'm doing much man.
That brother looked at me.
And he was like, I forgiveyou, but I said, no, no, no.
Listen, I need you to forgiveme for the way I treated you.
(33:04):
And that there was the power of Christ.
It wasn't just forgiven.
It was the power of forgivenessin that, in the, in the aisle,
you know, and that brother huggedme and you could just feel it.
I just felt the Holyspirit all on both of us.
Cause he knew that it was authentic, youknow, cause I used to treat him wrong.
And I, and he told me, forgive me, man.
I hugged him.
I got his number to this day, you know.
(33:26):
I appreciate that because I, Iwant this to come out , talking
about the emotions of it too.
And what, what people should be seeingif they truly forgive someone is
like, it wasn't what, like you say,fake, , I wasn't like, Oh, forgive me.
And all that.
And then, you know, that's not,True forgiveness, what we're saying
(33:49):
here, and what you actually justput into words, you feel the pain.
Now of what you've done, you see theperson now and you feel pain about it
and you say what you did because, andyou were hurting, you said you had
bust out, you know, crying and stuff.
It is nothing wrong with that becauseit's showing that it was authentic
(34:12):
because it was, it was painful.
You now feel pain.
Something where before youwere desensitized, I would
say you were hard hearted.
Now you're tender hearted, tender heartedpeople when other people are hurt.
Yes.
So this is like audience.
This is a red flag here.
(34:32):
If you're not hurting and feelingpainful for what you've done,
I think you should rethink.
Look at this again, becausesomething is not right because
you should be tender hearted.
Tenderhearted people hurt.
They don't, they can't justdo something, , because.
(34:56):
It hurts them to dosomething that's wrong.
Um, so that's a big red flag that ifyou don't feel anything, it's nothing
like what's what's wrong with it.
You know, like we become so desensitizedwith this television and social
media and in not understanding the.
(35:17):
What's the, I would say transformationthat's going on inside of you, like
you transformed into what Christmade you to be, which is to be
tenderhearted, forgiving and kind.
That means you're not walking around allexposed and you're going to get hurt every
time somebody say something wrong to you.
And now it's funny, we'll saytenderhearted, but on the outside
(35:43):
of it, it's like you kind of,you think more thick skin.
You're not as sensitive.
As you were the wrong way, butyou're sensitive in the right way.
So, and then I like how you describe howthe power again is, I cannot negate this.
It is forgiveness.
True forgiveness is very powerful.
(36:05):
It changes people on the inside.
It, it changes.
When I say change people, it changesthe heart, the heart, the heart.
You become compassion.
I think like he can feel like that.
That's why Jesus was so compassionate.
He could feel, you know, and that's,that's what, that's what it's all about.
(36:28):
I can feel again.
That's what happened to me.
When I see him in that, that aislelike that, I feel compassion.
And I was just like, man, I just felt somuch compassion for him, but not just him.
It was a lot of people, man, that Iremember my uncle down there, man.
I used to, me and him got into it all thetime, but you know, I was more aggressive.
(36:51):
And, um, when I got, I'm telling you.
When I got saved, I seenhim at my mom's house, man.
I said, can I talk to y'all, man?
Christ was all on me, man.
Back.
I said, Hey, listen, I said, I love y'all.
He said, I love you too, man.
I love you too.
And, um, I said, but man, I said,look, please forgive me for the way
I was treated and I was like, and Icould see how I treated him in my mind.
(37:17):
You know, I can feel it.
And I was like, man, I could feel it.
And I was just like, and Ijust started to weep, man.
And it wasn't showing that I wasno punk or nothing like that.
It was just showinglike, I could feel again.
And I was like, I'm sorry.
And he was like, I forgive you, man.
And man, the way wehugged, it was the power.
(37:38):
It was the power.
See, forgiveness got power to, andso it'll change your heart, man.
I'm telling you.
And the way people, the way you seethings and the way people see you,
because it forgiveness not only affectsyou, but it affects every person.
Oh yeah.
I like how, again, you.
You, you described it perfectlyand how the whole room
(37:59):
changes and yeah, I was there.
So I was there myself before and, youknow, growing up in tough neighborhoods.
Right, Pastor.
It can be, you feel you gotta be tough.
And it's just, well, you'regoing to get ate up and that's
just, that was a survival.
It was about survival, but, , Iknow God showed me another way and
(38:24):
I'm sure he, like he showed you,you don't have to lose your heart.
You don't have to lose, um, That'ssensitive nature in because God
actually fights your battles for you.
I didn't realize that either.
So, and because , we're not built tofight those type of battles and stuff.
(38:45):
We do fight battles, but he,he actually does the work for
us and we just follow orders.
I should say, and then we're still intact.
We were able to.
, still be around people be kind hearted andtender, but also hold people accountable
as well and have that good balancewhere you don't lose sight of things.
(39:09):
So, and again, this, this, Icannot again, just tell you how.
powerful, how much we need forgiveness,true forgiveness, and but where
we don't see it around, you know,they always saying, be kind.
I don't know if you'vebeen hearing that lately.
Yeah, yeah.
You hear those words.
(39:30):
Yeah.
Then it's like, they don'ttell you how to be kind.
How do you just be kind?
Yeah.
And then he's like, okay, I'm gonna tryto be kind when you was trying to be kind.
Did you, were you able to do it?
No.
Good.
Be good.
All that type of, I think, I think.
I think I really thinkthat you should like Peter.
(39:51):
They was like, how manytimes you said 70 times 7.
The reason why Jesus said thatabout forgiveness, when you
forgive somebody said 70 times 7.
He's like, man, what?
They ask for more faith.
The reason why is becauseSanta's in the world, you know.
This world.
And so sin needs to be forgiven.
And so that, that is very important.
(40:12):
So even in my marriage, like the,the key words is always to my
wife, forgive me, I was wrong.
And this is not all the time, butit's, it's just saying, forgive me.
I was wrong because you ain't goingto always get it right in relation.
So them, them, the keywords and forgive me.
And then the other personshould be in place.
(40:33):
For forgiveness, because it'snot something you all you all the
time doing like hurting or saysomething wrong or I said something
too loud or something like that.
So I always be like, hey,I stopped myself instantly.
So the power of Christ, youkeep flowing in my life.
Because unforgiveness, it stops it.
So I, I'll be like, Heysweetheart, I apologize.
I was a little too loud with that.
(40:54):
And she, my wife would look at herand she'd be like, forgive like that.
And we get right back to, you know,letting Christ flow in our lives.
Because unforgiveness, it, it, it, itstops the flow of Christ in your life.
It goes back to what you weresaying, like with your mom.
You lose that intimacy, that openingthat you have, and you lose it with,
(41:19):
it's not even, I think, you know, somepeople think you can compartmentalize
it, you know, you'll put it in acertain section and it won't flow
into other relationships, but.
We're just not made that way.
Look at our blood.
Look how our blood flows through us.
You can't just keep itin your your hand part.
You can't just keep it in one body partthat forgiveness unforgiveness flows
(41:44):
into every relationship everything youdo and most effective most importantly,
I should say you lose that intimacywith Christ because he God is not one
to overlook stuff, he's gonna, he'sgonna bring it up, call it out, and
you're gonna be under this conviction,and once you're under that conviction,
(42:06):
that's when you feel that hurt.
And you, and you're actuallyseeing people and what they're
doing, what you've done to them.
And you see yourself as well.
I'm talking from experience as well.
You see your own sins and you'dbe like, I need forgiveness.
And so we, it's, it's actually, it hasto be, it's not just a one time thing.
(42:27):
So, and that's, I'm glad you brought up.
That how many times hesaid seven times tonight.
They had some more faith than itwas like, Lord, give us more faith.
It's actually like real.
You, you have to forgiveas Christ forgave you.
So, because, because even Jesus, he waslike, Lord, take this, this bitter cup.
(42:48):
It was a bit, it was, that cup was bitterbecause that unforgiveness is, it was
a bitter cup and he had to take on it.
He had to take on our sins because we wereunforgiving and, and, but by his blood,
we're forgiving, but the cup itself.
And it was unforgiveness, man.
We, we, we had Christ paid our debt, man.
(43:08):
So that cup that, what he went through,he suffered, his soul suffered.
And so all that has todo with unforgiveness.
Um, your soul suffers and that's yourmind, your emotions and your own will.
You'll even make bad decisions throughunforgiveness, just resting in your
bones and in your heart like that.
You'll, you'll be ableto take you off course.
(43:30):
And, but that's, so that's why.
Forgiveness is so important andotherwise, if you don't have this
forgiveness, you have this anger.
If you have this anger, I mean,this is most of your story, right?
That's most of.
Everybody's story, I would think Iwould, imagine that if someone's
(43:52):
going in and out and of jail, orthey're constantly just in trouble and
stuff, it's usually an anger issue.
And I'm and we see it every day.
Just look at these people look at people.
They're angry.
And some of the stuff is like overthis, why are you angry for, but it's,
(44:14):
it's not because of that one incident.
It's something that's been buildingother stuff and it's, you have to deal
with this is or it's what it's goingto escalate and it's not, can you
talk, I like how you brought up too,is that when you forgive other people.
(44:37):
It necessarily doesn't happen wherethe other person forgives you,
but do you still have this piece?
Yeah.
Okay.
Because you was obedientto what God told you.
Well, that's, that's the, it'sabout just being obedient.
It don't say that God didn't tell youthat the other person would change.
He just told you to, youjust have to do your part.
(44:59):
And sometimes people don't.
That the other hand don't receive, butyou did your part and that that's it.
That that's the key behind it.
It's just you, you doing God's will.
It's just like when Christ came,he, he, he was sent for everybody,
but he was, he was rejected.
He came for the Jews,but they rejected him.
He did his part.
He, he did his part.
(45:20):
The blood was still forthem as well, you know?
And so he did his part and, and wehave to just do our parts in life.
And sometimes the otherperson won't respond.
And you wish they do, but nowyou got to just move along.
Now, did you have anyproblem forgiving yourself?
(45:40):
Oh, absolutely.
For you, man, for years, for years.
Man, I was I think that'swhat the problem was.
And you know what?
Other people forgave me attimes and I may forgive myself.
It was a few people thatforgave me and I forgive myself.
And I was like, man, yougot to let that go, man.
You know, you'd be likeit works that way as well.
(46:01):
But I had, I had a hugeproblem with forgiving myself.
And, uh, when I had been forgiven,even with God, like, like, how could
he forgive me for all the stuff I did?
I can't even talk about it.
I'd be in prison, but I waslike, how could he forgive me?
And so, you know, the devil alwaystry to manipulate unforgiveness,
(46:25):
you know, or forgiveness rather.
He, he always tried tomanipulate forgiveness.
That comes from Christ, um, like,no, you ain't worthy and all
that, but, but he found me worthy.
And so that is what it is.
And I stand on that today.
And I think, do you think this was partof when you, my mind is made up, you
(46:47):
were saying when you finally got yourmind made up, were you at that point too?
Getting past forgiving yourselfand being able to forgive
yourself and just do the work.
What was going on there?
Yeah, I was ready.
Once my mind was made up,I was ready for anything.
That's just what it was.
It was like, I was, Iwas like, I knew my mind.
(47:09):
It was somethingdifferent that took place.
Cause usually when I got, when I was like,I was going to do something, I had my foot
one in the world and one in the church,one in the program and one in the world.
And sometimes I had both feet in,but I still entertain those thoughts
that weren't, weren't right.
And I would let you know,I, I would you, whatever you
(47:29):
entertain becomes your reality.
So sometimes I kind of entertain Youknow, smoking cigarettes again, I get
out, go have sex, all that type of stuff.
Entertain the morning and he said,just overtake me as it would anybody
and you know, and I'd like topoint that out to people because
(47:51):
I see so many times that we, we.
We forget that we can't do nothingwithout Christ and how powerful
sin is, but forgiveness ispowerful, more powerful than sin.
And when we start forgivingpeople, we can start today
(48:13):
forgiving yourself, having that intimaterelationship with God, having him forgive.
You, did you ask himfor forgiveness as well?
How did that go?
I see what a made up mind, justreading the scriptures, Jesus, his
life showed us that we struggled, youknow, cause we got to give up some
(48:34):
things and he had to give up his life.
And at one point at three times, hesaid, father, take this cup away from me.
But right after that, he said, notmy will, but your will be done.
So it was, I was trapped between both.
He was showing us Our life because he hadon the body put on a body and he showed
us our struggle and it's the same way.
I got to give up this.
That's why a lot of people saybecause it's uh, they got to give up
(48:58):
some things and it was a struggle.
But once I, once I made my mind up,just like Christ, he did, he said,
not my will, your will be done.
That was the last part when he did it3 times and it took him to the cross.
And see, that's what I told you.
Um, well, I don't know if I told you ornot, but we had a sidebar, but it was a
(49:19):
lot of scholars believe that the gardenof Gethsemane was the most powerful
place, um, because it's the place wherehe made up his mind to go to the cross.
And so.
It was the same way, a made up mindto take you where you need to be.
And so made my mind up and it tookme to the cross and I confessed.
(49:40):
I was like, that's when I was honest.
I was like, Lord, I'm a sinner.
I'm in need of grace.
And, and I'm telling you, man,I never, my mind was made up.
And it was open.
I promise you, I ain't been back sinceI had, I ain't been back since I'm
talking about, I haven't been backsince, since 2000, December 10th, 2012.
(50:02):
I haven't been back sincecause I put both feet in him.
I made my mind.
I said, Lord, I'm done.
I said, use me.
You know, I said, useme Lord for your glory.
I was like, ah, I don'twant to go back no more.
And that was it.
And the power of forgivenesscame, boom, it hit me.
And I knew I was free and I wept and wept.
(50:23):
Man, he just let me knowthat I was forgiven, man.
And it, and it showed cause man, alltype of doors start opening for me, man.
I was about to go into that because yousaid, um, a very important thing when
everybody thinks you feel like you, um,given up a lot, but do you gain more?
(50:47):
Did you gain?
Oh, that's a, that's a,that's the deception.
That is, that's the deception that the.
Want us to be like, hold on to ourpast because ain't nothing there.
It was nothing there.
Mm-Hmm.
. And I was like, you know, the, the, the,the sex drugs kicking it party, all that.
It ain't even worth compared to what?
(51:07):
The, what?
He opened doors for me, man.
I, he, the first time, the first,so when I did that, I went on a
ministry trip and um, I, we gaveour testimony, I had to give my
testimony this one church way up north.
All right, this guy walked up tome and he described his experience.
When he first got saved, when God forgavehim of all his sins, he told me, he
(51:30):
said, when that, when I received Christthat day, he forgave me of all my sins.
He said, I ain't felt the Holyspirit like this in years, young man.
And he said, he said, um, God toldme to tell you, you need to go back
to school and I'm gonna pay for it.
And, um, it was the power of forgivenessthat paid for my first year of school.
And, and so when I went back to the, tothe treatment center, I came back with
(51:51):
a check to go back to school becausethey knew how much it cost my books and
all that, and they put it in the safeand this time, God to put something
before me so I won't run no more.
Okay.
And so all that, I, I was in a programI had, I was waiting to, uh, get out of
this just so I can go back to school.
It was paid for.
That's what I'm talking about.
(52:12):
Thank you for, , exposing that lieand, , feeling like you're going to
lose so much when actually you'regoing to gain right in its way.
It's priceless.
And, and right now you'reactually being cheated.
Right?
When you think you're, you, when you thinkyou're doing good and you, you can't just
(52:33):
give that up and you're not gonna make it.
You know?
And I hope someone that's listeningand hear that right now, um, at this
moment that they feel like they're okay.
I don't wanna give thisand that up, right?
We are, we are here to tell you thattrust you, trust you gotta gain way more.
And once you understand the, the, thepricelessness of it, you're going to
(52:57):
be like, man, I've been cheating allthis time and I've been faked out
and I'm going to tell you that.
And when I had, like, when I did that,it was a girl that was kind to me, man.
I mean, she was there the whole time,but once I checked into the ministry,
when God had called me in, I had bothfeet in my mind, God told me that she
(53:18):
couldn't go and it broke my heart.
And my wife noticed it broke,but she didn't do, you know,
she, she, she didn't understand.
And I was like, but I came into her lifemanipulative and God told me it's done.
We're done with that.
And, uh, it changed everything.
And once I, I let, I finally letthat go and cause it took me a while,
(53:39):
man, cause I couldn't understand it.
But then when I did doit, I did it by faith.
I didn't, I didn't go off my feelings.
God was like, I need you to do this now.
It was like an urgent call in my spirit.
And I just let her know, youknow, and I just stayed away.
I was like, she couldn't understand it,but I'm going to tell you I did that.
I went through the repercussions of that.
(54:01):
She was calling mad in the center,you know, doing stuff, saying stuff.
It was crazy.
But my wife came after that.
I promised it.
Yup.
Somebody to help me carry thevision that God called me to.
Yup.
Cause when you give, when you separateyourself, when you, uh, he said,
he who keeps his life will lose it.
But he who loses his life forme, Jesus said, we'll find it.
(54:24):
And that's what it was.
And I'm telling you what, themore you, you, you give up things
in your life, the things that.
That don't mean you no good man,or the thing, it can be some good
things sometime in your life.
Don't always think it's the bad things.
A lot of people always think it'sthe bad things God coming after.
But it's the good things,because there was some time I
had to give up a radio station.
(54:45):
I was teaching on a radio station.
I heard God say, clear asday, that give that up.
And I need you to stop doing thisover here in this ministry part.
And these were good things.
And I gave him up and heopened a door for me over here.
And I was like, Oh, I see why.
So it's not always bad thingsbecause that's what it can be.
Some, some things thatare beneficial as well.
(55:07):
But when God say, give it up,give it up because he has a
perfect plan for your life.
It's a perfect plan.
So that means we can't.
Add to it or take away from it.
Well, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for this.
Um, we're about to wrap this up.
And thank you for just revealing.
I don't want to call them secret things.
(55:27):
I want to call them things that is hidden.
They're treasures that.
We need to know about when we thinkingabout giving up things for God and how,
, forgiveness plays a big part of you.
The biggest part, I believe of youbeing able to step away from, , the
(55:49):
lifestyle you had before that sentyou back and forth to prison, had
you under those influences andhad you spiraling down in the fun.
And it's like, I know we You know,I look at this every day and it's, I
believe it's a spiritual thing whenwe hold on to things that we know.
(56:12):
It's no good.
We see where we at and westill want to hold on to it.
And again, just thank you telling ushow it was for you to separate from
those things and how benefits thatyou didn't have before started coming
and how your wife came after that.
It's like you have to getthrough this test in time.
I'm pretty sure going back towhat you say, it don't feel good.
(56:37):
Oh, your feelings don'tusually be there yet.
It's faith.
This is faith, not feelings.
Okay.
Okay.
Faith over feelings.
I like that one.
So is there anything else youwant to tell the audience,
, we mentioned your book,80 Barry white voices.
Um, can they get it on Amazon or?
(56:58):
Yes, they can get it on 80 BarryWhite Voices, Robert Dean Bell,
it's on Amazon now and it's cheap.
Everybody's like, man, you got it cheap.
It's 14.
99, but it's a, it's an impactful read.
It's engaging.
Teenagers should read this book.
You know, uh, it's really likea 00, you know, a 007 start.
It just start off like action packed.
(57:20):
You will see the story, man.
I'm telling you, it's a great book.
1499.
Plus I want to shout out to my church,Life Church, Milwaukee, and I'm here on
56th and Burlap, our service times at 9 30and 11 AM, right on 56th and Burlap, Life
Church, Milwaukee, 9 o'clock services.
And I'm here to tell youthat he is who we say he is.
(57:42):
Christ Jesus is who we say he is.
All right, I thank you so much forthat shout out and a great show again.
I really don't get enough times totalk about forgiveness, but your story
and what you went through was perfect.
And you just really gave usthe details about forgiveness.
(58:04):
Life feelings, how you feel, howyou can get cheated, how, how was
worth it and just how far you'vecome and how God has blessed you.
But I thank you again for joining me.
Thank you audience for listening and mayyou have a week filled with blessings.
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