November 27, 2025 • 31 mins
In this trending topic episode of the Private Equity Experience Podcast, hosts dive into the explosive intersection of private equity (PE) in college sports. Fueled by NIL deals, revenue sharing, transfer portal chaos, and massive TV rights contracts, college athletics—especially college football and basketball—is on the brink of a PE revolution. Is the Big Ten "selling its soul"? Could Notre Dame sell 10 years of TV rights for $2.8B? The team unpacks how PE could transform conferences like the SEC, Big Ten, Big 12, and ACC, boost efficiencies, and reshape the "student-athlete" model. Predictions: PE investments within the next year. Perfect for fans tracking college sports changes, PE trends, and the shift from amateur to pro-like leagues.
Memorable Quotes:
"When one needs cash, there's places to find that cash... private equity is now being talked about as a means to grow college sports." – Rory Liebhart
"A hundred dollars next year is worth about $96 today... Money today is worth more than money tomorrow." – Ed Barton on time value of money
"It'll happen sooner than 24 months... bigger than the NFL." – Ed & Rory on PE timeline
Private equity's push into college athletics signals a $ multi-billion-dollar new frontier. Track NIL evolution, conference realignments, and revenue-sharing lawsuits. Will it save or "fleece" programs like the Big Ten?
Key Topics: private equity college sports, PE in college football, NIL private equity, college basketball investments, SEC Big Ten TV rights, transfer portal impact, college athletics revenue sharing
Subscribe & Share: Never miss PE trends. Rate 5⭐ & drop a review! Follow for updates on Ep. 26. #PrivateEquity #CollegeFootball #NILDeals #BigTen #SEC
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (00:34):
All right.
We have another trending topicepisode, so we've come across a
whole bunch of articles, buthere's one Big 10 is letting the
wolf in the door and selling itssoul for what?
The bizarre, brazen story of theBig 10 trying to financially
fleece itself.
So.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (00:52):
If that's not clickbait, I don't
know what is I,
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (00:55):
We're talking about PE in college
athletics, which is something Inever thought I'd hear, but
apparently this is like anactual thing being considered.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (01:04):
Yeah, it has been, it's really been,
um, it's kind of coming to theforefront over the last couple
years as athletics specifically.
Uh, football and basketball havereally turned a paradigm to
where players are now being paidthrough, name, image, and
likeness, collectives.
There's revenue sharing, uh,from universities to players
(01:27):
now, and there's basically a tonof cash moving around in ways
that it hasn't before.
when you, when when one needscash, there's places to, you
know, find that cash and, and soyes, private equity is now being
talked about as a, as a means togrow college sports in ways that
we've never seen before, whichis really interesting.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (01:48):
And, and this is different from like
the transfer portal and NIL andlike paying college athletes.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (01:54):
It's all
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (01:55):
Okay.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (01:55):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (01:56):
Okay.
rory-liebhart_1_11- (01:57):
definitely.
I would say, if not for thosethings.
real, uh, in, in, in ways thatare actually legal now.
When people were still doing thesame shit, when they were, when
it was illegal.
Let's be clear about that.
Now it's overt, and now it's,uh, you know, it's a time for,
other private, private privateinvestors to get involved
really.
And private equities at the topof the list.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (02:18):
So, so how does this work?
Like who is who, what entity arethey investing in?
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (02:24):
Well, that's, I think, what is much,
much of a discussion topic.
I don't think anything is beingfully established.
Right?
Like I have so many questions.
I have more questions thananswers.
Let's put it that way.
you know, lot of universitiesare public institutions, some
are private.
Um, how, how would youdistinguish, you know, somebody
wanting to invest in thefootball program of a school but
(02:46):
not the.
know, women's field hockey,right?
Like, things like that come tomind.
How do we treat players asemployees?
I mean, you can look to, toprofessional sports franchises
and kind of see a modelhappening there, but it's just
so crazy for me.
I, I mean, I'm a collegefootball guy.
I like grow up with theromanticism about student
(03:07):
athletes and you know, it beinga pivotal thing and it's like
I've seen it change so much overthe last three or four years.
I'm like clinging to this notionof what is no longer there.
You know?
And I mean, I've personallyturned off from, uh, pro sports
in a lot of ways because I'vejust, put all my energy into
college football and things likethat.
But, so it's like seeing thishappen is really wild, but it
(03:29):
also opens up, know, discussionof like, well, what could
change?
How could it be, you know.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (03:34):
Yeah, well, I think.
I think it was Ed saying in anearlier conversation on or off
air, I can't remember, but thatsome college students took a pay
cut when they went to the pros.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (03:45):
Yeah.
They took a pay cut when theygot drafted
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (03:48):
Wow.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (03:49):
and this is a situation where, you
know, you're like, how does,how's pe gonna do this?
You know my, my response isgenerally where there's any cash
flow, especially at time valuedcash flow, you've got the
ability to discount that cashflow and it's monthly recurring
revenue, or it's annualrecurring revenue, which is set
by TV contracts and NILcontracts, and you can apply a
(04:14):
risk premium to it.
You're gonna be able to thendiscount it back to where the PE
guys are gonna be happy.
And the college is happy.
So what, here's an example ofsomething I think you may see.
You may see a university, andI'll use one of my myriad of, of
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (04:30):
you
fashizzle-baloo-- (04:30):
universities.
so you may see a university likethe University of Notre Dame
decide to go, decide to go,okay,
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (04:38):
brand probably in
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (04:39):
what we're gonna do.
We're going to the rights of ournext 10 years worth of college
football, television
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2 (04:47):
Mm-hmm.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (04:48):
to a private equity firm.
For an upfront payment of$2.8billion.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (04:56):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (04:57):
And then Notre Dame.
'cause Notre Dame does, I mean,I, when I was there, we got, we
got the exclusive
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (05:03):
Oh
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (05:03):
with NBC.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11- (05:04):
Saturday morning,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (05:05):
We got the exclusive with NBC.
And so we were, we were theNotre Dame Broadcasting network,
or Notre Dame BroadcastingCorporation with NBC.
And so they do that and then thePE guys go, okay, here's what we
can do.
We're gonna negotiate a betterdeal or a harder, hard, harder
core deal for the televisionrights.
So we're gonna get 3.8 billionfor the television rights.
(05:25):
The other thing that I saw in,in some of the articles are
college.
College athletic directors tendto be, attorneys tend to be, or
have come up through the collegeathletics environment.
And so, you know, they'retalking about like, the
negotiation of some of thesecontracts has been, you know,
(05:46):
how do people make millions ofdollars and continue to fail
year after year, after yearafter year.
And, so the private equity folksare likely to come in and bring
things like.
You know, complex analyticmodels to, to coaching to go,
okay, this coach is, you know,what correlations at a
coordinator level or at a smallcollege level work well to bring
(06:09):
in somebody at a higher level.
So, and then if the guy's notperforming, boot them out and
get someone in and they're gonnanegotiate harder contracts with
the talent.
So it's, it's, it turns into apro league essentially that's,
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (06:23):
time.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (06:24):
under the brand of a college.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (06:26):
So, so you're selling the TV rights,
but the, the product is stillthe game and how good the game
is and how winning the team is,or.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (06:35):
say winning helps certainly and, and
sort of having a successfulprogram.
Helps.
Um, however, you have all sortsof value centers in a college
college program similar to likeA NFL program or, you know,
major League soccer.
Not major league soccer as much,but just like Premier League
stuff, like think Global, butlike, you know, the branding
(06:58):
around the individual players,which now is even more prevalent
now that you can actually payplayers for that.
You have merchandising rights,you have concessions rights, you
have freaking real estate onwhich your stadium's built.
You have all of these elementsthat
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (07:14):
Yeah, luxury boxes.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (07:15):
to, to the, to the experience.
And so at the end of the day,it's about, it's a consumer
product.
Just like, you know, othersports are.
And so however you monetize andfollow those models from a
private equity standpoint willapply here.
I think it's, uh, kind of towhat Ed alluded to.
I see.
Like why would, why would aprivate equity wanna get
involved?
A, it's kind of a new frontierfor them to get involved.
(07:38):
There's not, there hasn't prevpreviously been a ton of above
board capital flowing into the,into the, into the programs.
Two, you know, it's probablyripe for efficiency gains from a
managerial and oversightperspective.
Again, not, not always the case,but in a lot of, a lot of
instances, private institutionsare run like an enterprise.
(08:02):
They're run like,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (08:03):
No.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (08:04):
know, a, a taxpayer funded
institution, so you don't haveas much innovation, things like
that.
I'm sort of.
sort of painting a picture of,of generality.
It's not always the case, butlike all of these things are
saying, Hey, we can come in hereand do this better than it's
been done.
We can ring some efficienciesout, make it more profitable,
and then become more successfuland then sell the enterprise
(08:26):
down the road, you know, to
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (08:27):
Wow.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (08:28):
other institutions.
It's really an interesting timeto be seeing this unfold.
Literally, you know.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (08:35):
Part of me.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (08:35):
the bigger, the bigger difference
here is going to be there is noequity essentially in the core
product.
So you've got things that youcan put.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (08:45):
You
fashizzle-baloo--it-is- (08:46):
Equity, like structures around it, you
know, so it could be stadium,stadium rentals, you know, those
kind of things.
But you do have in collegeathletics, and again, let me be
clear, it's.
Men's basketball, men'sfootball, everything else is a,
a loss at col.
At college, generally
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (09:03):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (09:03):
what you do have is fairly
predictable, especially whenyou're talking like the top 40
schools.
Fairly predictable cash flows inboth of those sports in.
And cash flows that can be, thatcan be monetized for present
value and then the universitycan use that money for other
program.
So that's their position is,look, I, if I can get a billion
(09:26):
and a half or$2 billion nowversus 2.8 billion over the next
five years, I'll take the 2billion now so I can build new
dormitories or so I can hire anew X or so I could do new y.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (09:36):
yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (09:36):
Then the, the PE guys are able to
take on something, a, adifferent approach with the,
with respect to the cash flow.
So I think that's, I thinkwhat's more, what we're more
likely to see is like atelevision setup where they go,
look, we're going to buy theexclusive negotiating rights and
cash flows from your televisionfor the next 10 years.
When that contract is coming up,it's gonna be an extension, or
(09:57):
another private equity firm isgonna come in and try and
negotiate a deal to get thatsame option or same negotiating.
Right.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (10:04):
And then how wild is it to think
about m and a in the space too,right?
Like as far as combining thingslike conferences, which we've
already seen happening, um, butin a, in a way that's much more
structured and, and sort of likePE model.
Um, like how, you know, howcould you think about like up a
bunch of sub conferences intoanother power conference,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (10:25):
Well, your, your, your one model that
I would think is logical becauseit's already on the college
football side, has already beenkind of permeated by corporate
sponsorship, is the playoffsbowl game
rory-liebhart_1_11-1 (10:38):
Absolutely
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (10:39):
So you look at the, you look at
March Madness for instance,
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (10:42):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (10:43):
has not been largely.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2 (10:45):
Mm-hmm.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (10:46):
start getting corporate sponsors for
each of those games, and thenyou start getting, you know,
some of those, some of thoseelements are played in at
neutral sites, but those neutralsites could very well be.
You know, corporate ownedfacilities that have x, y, or Z
type of ticket sales and otherthings.
I think there's, there's a, amyriad
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (11:04):
Oh
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (11:04):
of, of potential opportunities here
where private equity can insertthemselves, whether that's in
the playoff area, where, again,I think you, that at that point
do have a potential equity, newkind of new venture play.
Um,'cause because right now theNCAA kinda runs the, the NCAA
runs attorney and.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (11:24):
Yeah,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (11:24):
they might just want the cash and
then the other on the otherside, the college football, um,
bowl games are, are really ownedby the corporate sponsors at
this point.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (11:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bowl and the, you know, like,you know, like all of these bowl
games, like they are their ownbrands.
They truly are.
And they bring brandrecognition.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (11:44):
Yeah, the, the BlackRock Opportunity
Fund Bowl.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11 (11:49):
evergreen fun too, like, yeah, exactly.
Oh my gosh.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_15 (11:55):
Oh my gosh.
So Ed, you threw out some likefinancial terms and you kind of
explained'em along the way, butpresent value, meaning I'd
rather have the money now so Ican invest it earlier.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (12:03):
now is worth more than money over
time or money later.
'cause in your pocket.
And so there's a value that
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (12:09):
You can put it to use right now and
you have it like in hand versuson a spreadsheet,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_ (12:13):
credit risk and you remove.
Uh, kind of any of the othernon-pro non systematic risks
that can't be diversified orhedged away.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-20 (12:24):
Right.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (12:24):
then there was like the one you
mentioned earlier, which is thedelayed or like time value
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (12:29):
Time
emily-sander_1_11-11 (12:29):
something.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (12:30):
Value of money is essentially the same
thing, which is
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (12:33):
Okay.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (12:33):
the present value of the money is
the time value.
Time.
Money has a time value.
Time has a money value that wastaught to me by the late
professor Paul Conway back in1990, and the the thought
process there is.
Money today is worth more thanmoney tomorrow, and so you
should be compensated or youshould pay to get the money
(12:53):
faster.
And that's the time value ofmoney, that's the present value
of the money.
So a hundred dollars next yearis worth about 90,$96 today.
On the
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (13:03):
So,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (13:03):
all your time has a money value, so
you're, you shouldn't give yourtime away without at what am I
being compensated for, takingthis risk.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2 (13:11):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_15 (13:12):
so you're saying in, in this what
we're talking about this topic,the schools would rather have
the money now
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (13:19):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (13:20):
that they can, like you said, go
invest in a dorm or go invest inlike top professors or whatever.
Um, and then the.
It's interesting the players inthis whole, in this whole PE
jigsaw puzzle are like now likeTV rights and corporate sponsors
and like.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_15 (13:37):
I
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (13:37):
Yeah.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-20 (13:38):
always have been.
I would argue.
And I think that's the mainargument for some of the sea
changes we've seen in the ncaa,but.
But it does raise questionslike, how, how can, how much can
you hold the, these playersaccountable to the successor,
not of the business plan of thesquad?
You know?
Right.
Like, so, you know, any, anyemployees that you know are, are
(13:58):
managed in private company canbe fired and hired at will
effectively.
So, you know, think again aboutlike, we have 18 to 20 year
olds, mostly in the collegefootball arena.
Same with basketball.
You know,'cause
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (14:11):
Give them more attention and more
pressure and more money and seehow that goes.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (14:14):
You know,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (14:15):
It's a good idea.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (14:15):
are there?
Like, you know, like they don'teven, it's such a formative
years for someone.
I mean, so, but it is capitalismso you can choose to be part of
it or not.
Right.
So, But it would be veryinteresting to see how, just how
much we dealt, you know, kind ofmove towards players becoming
(14:37):
true employees collectivebargaining, that all of the, the
stuff that, know, pro franchisesdeal with now.
But those, those kids are alittle bit older at that point.
Um.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_15 (14:45):
is this like at the conference
level or the school by schoollevel or T-B-D-S-E-C.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (14:56):
much more knowledgeable of college
football than basketball, butright now you have four power
conferences with really twosuper conferences.
The Big 10 in the, in the SEC.
We should be saying all thesewords a lot because it'll get
picked up in the algorithm andlike get out to lost people.
SEC, big 10, big 12.
And the A, c, C.
(15:17):
So those are effectively thefour conferences that have.
The power schools.
The one caveat to that is youcaught a couple of independents
with Notre Dame being the mostnotable one, which is, or again,
as I
emily-sander_1_11-11-20 (15:27):
They're not in a conference.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (15:28):
not in the conference by their own
choice.
Um, and that's worked outextremely well for them, for
that school and that program.
But point being is of thelegislation in college athletics
is built around that, aroundthose conferences.
So it starts there, but withinthat you have schools competing
for.
within the conferences.
And you have these conferencesthat sh the conferences are what
(15:52):
make a ton of money right nowfrom the, broadcasting rights,
the media rights, all thatstuff, uh, predominantly at
which point they share thatrevenue with the universities
and within those cast systems,if you will.
You know, the, the, the biggerschools get a higher share than
the lower schools or the newerschools to the conference.
(16:13):
But, so there's a lot to be doneand unlocked there, so to speak.
But, but yeah, I think thatthat's how it'll be.
I think it's kind of set upright now in the way that it
would kind of be taken forward.
So there'd be investments aswe've seen in these articles
recently, is today into the Big10 or some of these other
conferences.
(16:34):
And from there, you know, howthe schools negotiate with the
conferences is another thing.
'cause maybe the conferencesstart kicking schools out and
stuff like that.
And where I, where I think a lotof money is be made as the
lawyers in all of this, becauseyou're setting new policy and
you're gonna be litigating theshit outta stuff when stuff
really starts happening.
So, um.
You know, really, reallyinteresting.
(16:55):
But it's like, again, I was, wewere talking off air.
If you would've told me thiswould've happened five years
ago, I would've like thought noway.
Like, this is the one lastbastion of like, you know, kind
of like, um, the
fashizzle-baloo--it-i (17:08):
Rockwell.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-20 (17:09):
Right.
You know?
And I'm like, Nope, And it's notas if the, I think it was
actually more the schools and,the conferences that have made
these big changes available forprivate equity to come in.
It hasn't, it wasn't likeprivate equity is like.
Spearheading this per se.
I think there, you know, it'sjust a natural place for
investment, institutionalinvestment to go and they're at
(17:31):
the top of the food pyramid onthat.
You know,
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (17:34):
Who, who does this displace or like
ruffle feathers of like, I'mimagining, I know in the SEC
there's like some big donors.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (17:41):
think fans that clinging to some level
of a, we just said, like thesort of classic notion.
I, one one, you know, little bitof a tangent, if I may.
Like, one thing that I've beenthinking about on this front is
like.
There are a lot of college fans.
I'm kind of one of those, it'slike, I like it because of what
it represents nostalgia wise tome and all this stuff that, if
(18:02):
it becomes the NFL, are it, doesthis cannibalize the NFL or, or
the other way around?
It's like maybe people are justgonna like gravitate more
towards the NFL because.
Maybe they just don't have thebandwidth for all of it.
Taking up an entire Saturday andan entire Sunday.
I pretty much have my Saturdaystaken up, but I have my Sundays
free.
but it is interesting to say,okay, there's only so many
(18:23):
eyeballs that are into football.
You know, are, is it going togrow the game or is it gonna,
you know, kind of drop someeyeballs or move eyeballs from
one to the other?
'cause how much of a, you know,how much.
Capacity.
Do you have to follow all ofyour favorite NFL teams and all
of your favorite college teamsand stuff like that?
(18:44):
I mean, I think there's a lot ofpeople out there that do all of
it, but like,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (18:47):
Um.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (18:47):
I'm just saying, I, I just wonder if
it doesn't alienate the customerat the end of the day and the
customer's, the consumer of theproduct, right?
So.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11- (18:54):
I was gonna say, I think that's,
well, that's well said, Rory.
I, I, you know, speaking formyself, the, to be you had very
few transfers and you had towait a year to transfer in
college to play, and so you hada lot more stability.
You always had 25% of the teamor so turning over every year,
but you had a lot more stabilityin the players.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2 (19:14):
Mm-hmm.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (19:15):
the coaches tended to have, there
tended to be a lot longer fuseon coach.
You know, kind of you hire acoach and they last for a while
and you know what, what we'veseen already is with the
transfer portal and the NILmoney and those things, people
go and look, I'm gonna transfer'cause I can get more money here
and I can get more playing timethere.
(19:35):
And you know, again, that's,that for me has actually taken.
the college football piece andmade it feel like the NFL.
And I'm like, look, and I'm withyou.
I'm like, look, if I got a, I'mgonna, I actually see more
stability with the Seahawks thanI see with Syracuse University.
And so I'm like, I, I, you know,if I gotta pick one or the
(19:55):
other, I'm gonna pick the, thelocal NFL team.
'cause at least they're notpretending to be, a, a
not-for-profit, you know,enterprise that's educationally
driven.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (20:06):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (20:07):
Would there ever be like a, these,
these college teams are doingthe money play and the PE and,
and, and these college teams arejust not, it's like a normal,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (20:17):
is a lot of that.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (20:19):
that way?
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (20:20):
okay.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11 (20:20):
question.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (20:20):
and that's, and so like we talked
earlier, Notre Dame in, in 1988,it, basically negotiated its own
TV agreement with NBC exclusiveand has had that for.
I mean, we're looking likenearly 40 years.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (20:35):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (20:36):
so they, and, and you know, they
said, look, we, we can draw allthese eyeballs.
We're gonna negotiate our owndeal.
We're not going through the NCAA
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2 (20:44):
Mm-hmm.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (20:45):
That was almost the start of it.
And then the conferences havealways been kind of aggressive
on, on the element, and then itwas at revenue share at the
conference level.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (20:53):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (20:54):
But you have schools like the
Mountain West or, or conferenceslike the Mountain West.
They're, it's a have notconference.
And when you compare that to theSEC, it's a real have not
conference.
And they are now having troublecompeting.
You know, they can't competewith these guys.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-20 (21:09):
became a non-conference,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11- (21:11):
a non-conference yet.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (21:12):
that was a Power Five conference and
it got displaced.
You're
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (21:15):
Yeah, you really can't get, but those
schools can't compete becausenow you're buying talent
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (21:19):
yeah,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (21:20):
so the, you can't, a Boise State is
gonna have trouble competingagainst an Alabama where 10
years ago, Boise State was a,would compete for the national
championship.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (21:29):
Well that's the true farm system.
Now, if you will like the, thelower group of five conference,
again, we're talking football.
And probably the same inbasketball, but like, you know,
these, these lower conferences,they are basically now with the
ability to transfer, as Ed said,without having to wait a year on
your eligibility and make moremoney.
It's like these, these rostersare getting perpetually plucked
(21:51):
you know, if a, if a player islike not a great high school
player per se.
Five star, four star, they, theygo play it, uh, like Utah State
or, you know, pick any number of'em like James Madison, although
they're kicking some a thisyear.
But being is like, they'll playwell and they'll be like, oh,
it's like another farm system inbaseball.
(22:12):
So you then, you then move to ahigher, higher school after
you've been recruited and playedat this lower school.
And so it's con perpetuallybeing a feeder system.
So you think about the lack ofconsistency of rosters the power
conference, that's magnifiedtimes 10 in these
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (22:28):
Yeah.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-20 (22:29):
'cause you can't even keep anybody if
you're if, if you, if you got astar player or a coach for that
matter.
So
fashizzle-baloo--it-is- (22:35):
private equity is just gonna exacerbate
the problem by putting moremoney into the system to be able
to pluck those players andputting in the discipline of the
analytics, the kind of the, thepieces they'll take, they'll,
they'll put Moneyball to play incollege athletics more so than
it already is.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (22:53):
Yeah.
Be
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (22:54):
Ever moved to the NFL?
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (22:57):
Well, it's already there.
I, I believe, and certainly inbaseball too, like there are
private.
Funds that are invested infranchises to some degree, maybe
not the majority stake, butcertainly minority stakes
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (23:12):
know the Packers didn't they go
public?
So like the public can own.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_ (23:15):
public since like 1920.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2 (23:17):
that's, yeah, definitely
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (23:18):
Okay.
fashizzle-baloo--it-i (23:18):
publicly, they're publicly owned, but,
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (23:20):
yeah.
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (23:20):
and there used to, the Celtics used
to be publicly owned as well,and they went private.
But you have, you have a numberof, like the NFL for instance,
basically has a very rigorousmethodology by which they vet
ownership.
And so it's difficult to be anNFL majority owner and.
make enough money that they maynot, but what you do see is they
(23:42):
are ruthless.
They've been ruthless business,business people since the
beginning, basically since, youknow, the, the ROSELL era and
the, the combination of theA-F-L-N-F-L and that, and
they're making good money, butanywhere there's money, there's
an opportunity for privateequity to figure out how to, if,
(24:03):
if there's money andinefficiency.
Private equity will find a wayto get themselves in there.
And it could be on theoperational side, it could be on
STA Stadium Construction.
It could be any of those things.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (24:13):
Yeah.
Well, and we talked a couplepods ago about, EA Sports and
Saudi Wealth Fund.
I mean, so, you know, sovereignwealth funds are, are.
Very prevalent is investorsglobally outside of the us.
So in, in football clubs, youknow, English football clubs or
European football clubs, there'sa lot of investment from, um,
(24:36):
you know, sovereign wealth fundsand other, other big funds like
that.
So it's definitely not novel.
Ed made a good point aboutthere's a, maybe a more vetting
process.
It's not just a free market theus but I don't see why that will
stay the case forever if
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_15 (24:51):
Is it at the college level though?
At like the university level?
Worldwide.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (24:56):
Uh, not that I might, not that I'm
aware of.
No, no.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (25:00):
Okay.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (25:00):
have a, we have a fairly unique,
yeah, we have a fairly uniquecollege sports.
I mean, you have college schoolseverywhere, almost everywhere,
but it is not like the US.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (25:11):
makes America great in my opinion.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_15 (25:17):
if this goes through, who are the
winners and losers?
Like, are there sponsors ordonors to these big SEC teams
that like lose sway?
Is that a loser or do they finda way to plug themselves into
the system?
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (25:30):
are,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (25:30):
The winner.
I think ultimately you're gonnahave two, you're gonna have two
big winners.
I think big winner number one isgoing to be the student athlete.
Because you're gonna continue topump money in.
I think talent, it's gonna betalent acquisition, so it's
gonna start looking more andmore like Hollywood and less and
less like college athletics.
So it's gonna be, you know, thestudent athlete is gonna have
(25:53):
the ability to get paid more.
The private equity folks aregonna be able to structure an IL
deals with, you know, othercompanies to get the preferred
folks paid more.
And so I think the collegeathlete will ultimately.
Will ultimately benefit so thetalent will benefit.
And I think private equity willbenefit.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (26:11):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11- (26:11):
I think it, you know, they, they
rarely go into something wherethey're, where they don't
benefit, you know, so it's, soit's gonna, they'll structure it
in such a way that they takeadvantage of those areas where
there's inefficiencies to behad, where they can participate
fully and, you know, whetherthat's stadium construction or,
or any of those kind of things,they'll do well.
Um, who's gonna suffer, I thinkultimately.
(26:33):
Is going to be the fan who isgonna be kind of faced with a
magnification or intensificationof what we've already seen with,
you know, schools moving aroundand working for better deals
and, and players moving aroundlooking for better deals of
coaches.
And then the other one that Ithink is gonna lose ultimately
is going to be the institutionwho used to be able to, and,
(26:55):
the, and the conferences.
So the traditional college.
Infrastructure around sportswhere they used to be able to do
two things.
One, these two sports, men'sbasketball, men's football would
subsidize all the other sports.
So that money would all comeinto the university and then
would be used to subsidizewomen's water polo and you know,
(27:17):
men's track and field.
And now that's not gonna happen.
And then,'cause that money'sgonna be.
Off to athletes and privateequity.
And the college itself I thinkis gonna struggle with a lot of
folks.
And again, I Rory's a UDub grad.
I'm a grad of multipleinstitutions with college
football programs, and we tendto have a strong emotional
(27:40):
connection with our alma materthrough that sports program.
And if that sports program kindof
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (27:46):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (27:46):
to feel too businessy, that
emotional connection will startto fray and.
Folks coming up through thesystem won't build that same
loyalty to the alma mater that,that we did growing up.
And I think that's, that's gonnabe the fundamental difference.
That's, that's where you'relosing.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (28:02):
the consumer might suffer, but we'll
see, you know, how durable thatis over time, you know, like who
knows what kind of, um,additional innovations.
I mean, I'm already thinking tomyself like changing the rules
to grant even more eligibilityto these folks so that they stay
in the system and they don't goto the NFL because maybe they
don't have as much incentive.
(28:22):
Uh, because they're making moremoney in college.
That's actually alreadyhappening that way.
But this would be an even much.
potential for that if you havegoverning bodies changing, you
know, the NC a a is alreadysomewhat impotent, if you will,
in so many ways.
And it's gonna become even moreso over time if, uh, if more
(28:43):
private interests get involved.
So, you know, we'll see.
Um, it is here, I mean, it'shappening.
It's, it's definitely not atheoretical at this point,
whereas, like I said, five yearsago, I would've thought it would
be like, no way.
But yeah, there's a will.
There's way.
emily-sander_1_11- (29:00):
Predictions, will this happen?
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (29:02):
Hmm.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (29:03):
How soon
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_15 (29:03):
I
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (29:04):
and what will the result be?
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (29:05):
yeah, I mean, you know, doubling on a
couple of our episodes, I meanlike, call it 18 to 24 months
from now when we can invest inprivate equity out of our 401k
as retail investors, like we, wecan have exposure to this asset
class on our own, you know?
So yeah, it's happening and it,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (29:22):
it It'll happen.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (29:24):
for
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (29:24):
it will happen.
I think it'll even happen.
Yeah.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (29:26):
this business, it's gonna happen.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11- (29:28):
I think it'll happen sooner than
24 months.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (29:30):
it is as big, if not bigger than
the NFL, quite honestly.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (29:34):
Yep.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (29:34):
have simply more programs.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (29:36):
Yep.
I, I think it'll happen.
It'll happen within the nextyear.
I think you'll see the first, Ithink you'll see the first
investments and it's funny, Iwas thinking about,
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (29:45):
be in the conferences.
They'll be like
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (29:47):
yeah.
rory-liebhart_1_11 (29:47):
partnerships with the
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (29:48):
Yep.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (29:49):
sure.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (29:49):
And, and they're ready in the bowl
games.
And I'll bet you the NCAA con,uh.
March Madness becomes part of,becomes one of the early
dominoes to fall.
I think the other piece I wasjust thinking about, the losers.
My old law firm in Syracuse hada significant NCAA practice
working, working through the,um, eligibility issues and, you
(30:13):
know, whether folks were onprobation and dealing with, with
some of the issues forenforcement from the NC two A,
they're gonna be a loser.
Because there's
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (30:22):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (30:22):
less of that.
'cause it's, as Rory noted, it'salways been there.
And so they would hire, hire ourfirm to kind of clean up a lot
of this stuff.
Well, now it's all in the openand it's fine.
rory-liebhart_1_11 (30:32):
institution.
Let's be real about
fashizzle-baloo--it-is (30:34):
They're,
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (30:34):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is (30:35):
probably struggling now'cause they used
to represent the, the collegesagainst the NC two A on on
violations and so there'sprobably fewer violations and
the lawyers are gonna, Rory hadtalked about the lawyers are
gonna get busy.
Well that particular firm'slawyers are gonna struggle a
little bit'cause they gonna befewer violations for them to
defend.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (30:54):
good point.
Yeah.
Point
emily-sander_1_11-1 (30:59):
experience, and we will probably follow up
with this one as well in
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (31:02):
is one to watch.
emily-sander_1_11-1 (31:04):
predictions and see how they roll out.
But
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (31:07):
Go
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (31:07):
thank you, ed.
Thank.
All right.
We have another trending topicepisode, so we've come across a
whole bunch of articles, buthere's one Big 10 is letting the
wolf in the door and selling itssoul for what?
The bizarre, brazen story of theBig 10 trying to financially
fleece itself.
So.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (00:52):
If that's not clickbait, I don't
know what is I,
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (00:55):
We're talking about PE in college
athletics, which is something Inever thought I'd hear, but
apparently this is like anactual thing being considered.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (01:04):
Yeah, it has been, it's really been,
um, it's kind of coming to theforefront over the last couple
years as athletics specifically.
Uh, football and basketball havereally turned a paradigm to
where players are now being paidthrough, name, image, and
likeness, collectives.
There's revenue sharing, uh,from universities to players
(01:27):
now, and there's basically a tonof cash moving around in ways
that it hasn't before.
when you, when when one needscash, there's places to, you
know, find that cash and, and soyes, private equity is now being
talked about as a, as a means togrow college sports in ways that
we've never seen before, whichis really interesting.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (01:48):
And, and this is different from like
the transfer portal and NIL andlike paying college athletes.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (01:54):
It's all
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (01:55):
Okay.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (01:55):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (01:56):
Okay.
rory-liebhart_1_11- (01:57):
definitely.
I would say, if not for thosethings.
real, uh, in, in, in ways thatare actually legal now.
When people were still doing thesame shit, when they were, when
it was illegal.
Let's be clear about that.
Now it's overt, and now it's,uh, you know, it's a time for,
other private, private privateinvestors to get involved
really.
And private equities at the topof the list.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (02:18):
So, so how does this work?
Like who is who, what entity arethey investing in?
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (02:24):
Well, that's, I think, what is much,
much of a discussion topic.
I don't think anything is beingfully established.
Right?
Like I have so many questions.
I have more questions thananswers.
Let's put it that way.
you know, lot of universitiesare public institutions, some
are private.
Um, how, how would youdistinguish, you know, somebody
wanting to invest in thefootball program of a school but
(02:46):
not the.
know, women's field hockey,right?
Like, things like that come tomind.
How do we treat players asemployees?
I mean, you can look to, toprofessional sports franchises
and kind of see a modelhappening there, but it's just
so crazy for me.
I, I mean, I'm a collegefootball guy.
I like grow up with theromanticism about student
(03:07):
athletes and you know, it beinga pivotal thing and it's like
I've seen it change so much overthe last three or four years.
I'm like clinging to this notionof what is no longer there.
You know?
And I mean, I've personallyturned off from, uh, pro sports
in a lot of ways because I'vejust, put all my energy into
college football and things likethat.
But, so it's like seeing thishappen is really wild, but it
(03:29):
also opens up, know, discussionof like, well, what could
change?
How could it be, you know.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (03:34):
Yeah, well, I think.
I think it was Ed saying in anearlier conversation on or off
air, I can't remember, but thatsome college students took a pay
cut when they went to the pros.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (03:45):
Yeah.
They took a pay cut when theygot drafted
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (03:48):
Wow.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (03:49):
and this is a situation where, you
know, you're like, how does,how's pe gonna do this?
You know my, my response isgenerally where there's any cash
flow, especially at time valuedcash flow, you've got the
ability to discount that cashflow and it's monthly recurring
revenue, or it's annualrecurring revenue, which is set
by TV contracts and NILcontracts, and you can apply a
(04:14):
risk premium to it.
You're gonna be able to thendiscount it back to where the PE
guys are gonna be happy.
And the college is happy.
So what, here's an example ofsomething I think you may see.
You may see a university, andI'll use one of my myriad of, of
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (04:30):
you
fashizzle-baloo-- (04:30):
universities.
so you may see a university likethe University of Notre Dame
decide to go, decide to go,okay,
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (04:38):
brand probably in
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (04:39):
what we're gonna do.
We're going to the rights of ournext 10 years worth of college
football, television
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2 (04:47):
Mm-hmm.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (04:48):
to a private equity firm.
For an upfront payment of$2.8billion.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (04:56):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (04:57):
And then Notre Dame.
'cause Notre Dame does, I mean,I, when I was there, we got, we
got the exclusive
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (05:03):
Oh
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (05:03):
with NBC.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11- (05:04):
Saturday morning,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (05:05):
We got the exclusive with NBC.
And so we were, we were theNotre Dame Broadcasting network,
or Notre Dame BroadcastingCorporation with NBC.
And so they do that and then thePE guys go, okay, here's what we
can do.
We're gonna negotiate a betterdeal or a harder, hard, harder
core deal for the televisionrights.
So we're gonna get 3.8 billionfor the television rights.
(05:25):
The other thing that I saw in,in some of the articles are
college.
College athletic directors tendto be, attorneys tend to be, or
have come up through the collegeathletics environment.
And so, you know, they'retalking about like, the
negotiation of some of thesecontracts has been, you know,
(05:46):
how do people make millions ofdollars and continue to fail
year after year, after yearafter year.
And, so the private equity folksare likely to come in and bring
things like.
You know, complex analyticmodels to, to coaching to go,
okay, this coach is, you know,what correlations at a
coordinator level or at a smallcollege level work well to bring
(06:09):
in somebody at a higher level.
So, and then if the guy's notperforming, boot them out and
get someone in and they're gonnanegotiate harder contracts with
the talent.
So it's, it's, it turns into apro league essentially that's,
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (06:23):
time.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (06:24):
under the brand of a college.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (06:26):
So, so you're selling the TV rights,
but the, the product is stillthe game and how good the game
is and how winning the team is,or.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (06:35):
say winning helps certainly and, and
sort of having a successfulprogram.
Helps.
Um, however, you have all sortsof value centers in a college
college program similar to likeA NFL program or, you know,
major League soccer.
Not major league soccer as much,but just like Premier League
stuff, like think Global, butlike, you know, the branding
(06:58):
around the individual players,which now is even more prevalent
now that you can actually payplayers for that.
You have merchandising rights,you have concessions rights, you
have freaking real estate onwhich your stadium's built.
You have all of these elementsthat
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (07:14):
Yeah, luxury boxes.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (07:15):
to, to the, to the experience.
And so at the end of the day,it's about, it's a consumer
product.
Just like, you know, othersports are.
And so however you monetize andfollow those models from a
private equity standpoint willapply here.
I think it's, uh, kind of towhat Ed alluded to.
I see.
Like why would, why would aprivate equity wanna get
involved?
A, it's kind of a new frontierfor them to get involved.
(07:38):
There's not, there hasn't prevpreviously been a ton of above
board capital flowing into the,into the, into the programs.
Two, you know, it's probablyripe for efficiency gains from a
managerial and oversightperspective.
Again, not, not always the case,but in a lot of, a lot of
instances, private institutionsare run like an enterprise.
(08:02):
They're run like,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (08:03):
No.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (08:04):
know, a, a taxpayer funded
institution, so you don't haveas much innovation, things like
that.
I'm sort of.
sort of painting a picture of,of generality.
It's not always the case, butlike all of these things are
saying, Hey, we can come in hereand do this better than it's
been done.
We can ring some efficienciesout, make it more profitable,
and then become more successfuland then sell the enterprise
(08:26):
down the road, you know, to
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (08:27):
Wow.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (08:28):
other institutions.
It's really an interesting timeto be seeing this unfold.
Literally, you know.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (08:35):
Part of me.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (08:35):
the bigger, the bigger difference
here is going to be there is noequity essentially in the core
product.
So you've got things that youcan put.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (08:45):
You
fashizzle-baloo--it-is- (08:46):
Equity, like structures around it, you
know, so it could be stadium,stadium rentals, you know, those
kind of things.
But you do have in collegeathletics, and again, let me be
clear, it's.
Men's basketball, men'sfootball, everything else is a,
a loss at col.
At college, generally
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (09:03):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (09:03):
what you do have is fairly
predictable, especially whenyou're talking like the top 40
schools.
Fairly predictable cash flows inboth of those sports in.
And cash flows that can be, thatcan be monetized for present
value and then the universitycan use that money for other
program.
So that's their position is,look, I, if I can get a billion
(09:26):
and a half or$2 billion nowversus 2.8 billion over the next
five years, I'll take the 2billion now so I can build new
dormitories or so I can hire anew X or so I could do new y.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (09:36):
yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (09:36):
Then the, the PE guys are able to
take on something, a, adifferent approach with the,
with respect to the cash flow.
So I think that's, I thinkwhat's more, what we're more
likely to see is like atelevision setup where they go,
look, we're going to buy theexclusive negotiating rights and
cash flows from your televisionfor the next 10 years.
When that contract is coming up,it's gonna be an extension, or
(09:57):
another private equity firm isgonna come in and try and
negotiate a deal to get thatsame option or same negotiating.
Right.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (10:04):
And then how wild is it to think
about m and a in the space too,right?
Like as far as combining thingslike conferences, which we've
already seen happening, um, butin a, in a way that's much more
structured and, and sort of likePE model.
Um, like how, you know, howcould you think about like up a
bunch of sub conferences intoanother power conference,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (10:25):
Well, your, your, your one model that
I would think is logical becauseit's already on the college
football side, has already beenkind of permeated by corporate
sponsorship, is the playoffsbowl game
rory-liebhart_1_11-1 (10:38):
Absolutely
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (10:39):
So you look at the, you look at
March Madness for instance,
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (10:42):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (10:43):
has not been largely.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2 (10:45):
Mm-hmm.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (10:46):
start getting corporate sponsors for
each of those games, and thenyou start getting, you know,
some of those, some of thoseelements are played in at
neutral sites, but those neutralsites could very well be.
You know, corporate ownedfacilities that have x, y, or Z
type of ticket sales and otherthings.
I think there's, there's a, amyriad
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (11:04):
Oh
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (11:04):
of, of potential opportunities here
where private equity can insertthemselves, whether that's in
the playoff area, where, again,I think you, that at that point
do have a potential equity, newkind of new venture play.
Um,'cause because right now theNCAA kinda runs the, the NCAA
runs attorney and.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (11:24):
Yeah,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (11:24):
they might just want the cash and
then the other on the otherside, the college football, um,
bowl games are, are really ownedby the corporate sponsors at
this point.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (11:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bowl and the, you know, like,you know, like all of these bowl
games, like they are their ownbrands.
They truly are.
And they bring brandrecognition.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (11:44):
Yeah, the, the BlackRock Opportunity
Fund Bowl.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11 (11:49):
evergreen fun too, like, yeah, exactly.
Oh my gosh.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_15 (11:55):
Oh my gosh.
So Ed, you threw out some likefinancial terms and you kind of
explained'em along the way, butpresent value, meaning I'd
rather have the money now so Ican invest it earlier.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (12:03):
now is worth more than money over
time or money later.
'cause in your pocket.
And so there's a value that
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (12:09):
You can put it to use right now and
you have it like in hand versuson a spreadsheet,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_ (12:13):
credit risk and you remove.
Uh, kind of any of the othernon-pro non systematic risks
that can't be diversified orhedged away.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-20 (12:24):
Right.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (12:24):
then there was like the one you
mentioned earlier, which is thedelayed or like time value
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (12:29):
Time
emily-sander_1_11-11 (12:29):
something.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (12:30):
Value of money is essentially the same
thing, which is
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (12:33):
Okay.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (12:33):
the present value of the money is
the time value.
Time.
Money has a time value.
Time has a money value that wastaught to me by the late
professor Paul Conway back in1990, and the the thought
process there is.
Money today is worth more thanmoney tomorrow, and so you
should be compensated or youshould pay to get the money
(12:53):
faster.
And that's the time value ofmoney, that's the present value
of the money.
So a hundred dollars next yearis worth about 90,$96 today.
On the
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (13:03):
So,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (13:03):
all your time has a money value, so
you're, you shouldn't give yourtime away without at what am I
being compensated for, takingthis risk.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2 (13:11):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_15 (13:12):
so you're saying in, in this what
we're talking about this topic,the schools would rather have
the money now
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (13:19):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (13:20):
that they can, like you said, go
invest in a dorm or go invest inlike top professors or whatever.
Um, and then the.
It's interesting the players inthis whole, in this whole PE
jigsaw puzzle are like now likeTV rights and corporate sponsors
and like.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_15 (13:37):
I
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (13:37):
Yeah.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-20 (13:38):
always have been.
I would argue.
And I think that's the mainargument for some of the sea
changes we've seen in the ncaa,but.
But it does raise questionslike, how, how can, how much can
you hold the, these playersaccountable to the successor,
not of the business plan of thesquad?
You know?
Right.
Like, so, you know, any, anyemployees that you know are, are
(13:58):
managed in private company canbe fired and hired at will
effectively.
So, you know, think again aboutlike, we have 18 to 20 year
olds, mostly in the collegefootball arena.
Same with basketball.
You know,'cause
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (14:11):
Give them more attention and more
pressure and more money and seehow that goes.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (14:14):
You know,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (14:15):
It's a good idea.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (14:15):
are there?
Like, you know, like they don'teven, it's such a formative
years for someone.
I mean, so, but it is capitalismso you can choose to be part of
it or not.
Right.
So, But it would be veryinteresting to see how, just how
much we dealt, you know, kind ofmove towards players becoming
(14:37):
true employees collectivebargaining, that all of the, the
stuff that, know, pro franchisesdeal with now.
But those, those kids are alittle bit older at that point.
Um.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_15 (14:45):
is this like at the conference
level or the school by schoollevel or T-B-D-S-E-C.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (14:56):
much more knowledgeable of college
football than basketball, butright now you have four power
conferences with really twosuper conferences.
The Big 10 in the, in the SEC.
We should be saying all thesewords a lot because it'll get
picked up in the algorithm andlike get out to lost people.
SEC, big 10, big 12.
And the A, c, C.
(15:17):
So those are effectively thefour conferences that have.
The power schools.
The one caveat to that is youcaught a couple of independents
with Notre Dame being the mostnotable one, which is, or again,
as I
emily-sander_1_11-11-20 (15:27):
They're not in a conference.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (15:28):
not in the conference by their own
choice.
Um, and that's worked outextremely well for them, for
that school and that program.
But point being is of thelegislation in college athletics
is built around that, aroundthose conferences.
So it starts there, but withinthat you have schools competing
for.
within the conferences.
And you have these conferencesthat sh the conferences are what
(15:52):
make a ton of money right nowfrom the, broadcasting rights,
the media rights, all thatstuff, uh, predominantly at
which point they share thatrevenue with the universities
and within those cast systems,if you will.
You know, the, the, the biggerschools get a higher share than
the lower schools or the newerschools to the conference.
(16:13):
But, so there's a lot to be doneand unlocked there, so to speak.
But, but yeah, I think thatthat's how it'll be.
I think it's kind of set upright now in the way that it
would kind of be taken forward.
So there'd be investments aswe've seen in these articles
recently, is today into the Big10 or some of these other
conferences.
(16:34):
And from there, you know, howthe schools negotiate with the
conferences is another thing.
'cause maybe the conferencesstart kicking schools out and
stuff like that.
And where I, where I think a lotof money is be made as the
lawyers in all of this, becauseyou're setting new policy and
you're gonna be litigating theshit outta stuff when stuff
really starts happening.
So, um.
You know, really, reallyinteresting.
(16:55):
But it's like, again, I was, wewere talking off air.
If you would've told me thiswould've happened five years
ago, I would've like thought noway.
Like, this is the one lastbastion of like, you know, kind
of like, um, the
fashizzle-baloo--it-i (17:08):
Rockwell.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-20 (17:09):
Right.
You know?
And I'm like, Nope, And it's notas if the, I think it was
actually more the schools and,the conferences that have made
these big changes available forprivate equity to come in.
It hasn't, it wasn't likeprivate equity is like.
Spearheading this per se.
I think there, you know, it'sjust a natural place for
investment, institutionalinvestment to go and they're at
(17:31):
the top of the food pyramid onthat.
You know,
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (17:34):
Who, who does this displace or like
ruffle feathers of like, I'mimagining, I know in the SEC
there's like some big donors.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (17:41):
think fans that clinging to some level
of a, we just said, like thesort of classic notion.
I, one one, you know, little bitof a tangent, if I may.
Like, one thing that I've beenthinking about on this front is
like.
There are a lot of college fans.
I'm kind of one of those, it'slike, I like it because of what
it represents nostalgia wise tome and all this stuff that, if
(18:02):
it becomes the NFL, are it, doesthis cannibalize the NFL or, or
the other way around?
It's like maybe people are justgonna like gravitate more
towards the NFL because.
Maybe they just don't have thebandwidth for all of it.
Taking up an entire Saturday andan entire Sunday.
I pretty much have my Saturdaystaken up, but I have my Sundays
free.
but it is interesting to say,okay, there's only so many
(18:23):
eyeballs that are into football.
You know, are, is it going togrow the game or is it gonna,
you know, kind of drop someeyeballs or move eyeballs from
one to the other?
'cause how much of a, you know,how much.
Capacity.
Do you have to follow all ofyour favorite NFL teams and all
of your favorite college teamsand stuff like that?
(18:44):
I mean, I think there's a lot ofpeople out there that do all of
it, but like,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (18:47):
Um.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (18:47):
I'm just saying, I, I just wonder if
it doesn't alienate the customerat the end of the day and the
customer's, the consumer of theproduct, right?
So.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11- (18:54):
I was gonna say, I think that's,
well, that's well said, Rory.
I, I, you know, speaking formyself, the, to be you had very
few transfers and you had towait a year to transfer in
college to play, and so you hada lot more stability.
You always had 25% of the teamor so turning over every year,
but you had a lot more stabilityin the players.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2 (19:14):
Mm-hmm.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (19:15):
the coaches tended to have, there
tended to be a lot longer fuseon coach.
You know, kind of you hire acoach and they last for a while
and you know what, what we'veseen already is with the
transfer portal and the NILmoney and those things, people
go and look, I'm gonna transfer'cause I can get more money here
and I can get more playing timethere.
(19:35):
And you know, again, that's,that for me has actually taken.
the college football piece andmade it feel like the NFL.
And I'm like, look, and I'm withyou.
I'm like, look, if I got a, I'mgonna, I actually see more
stability with the Seahawks thanI see with Syracuse University.
And so I'm like, I, I, you know,if I gotta pick one or the
(19:55):
other, I'm gonna pick the, thelocal NFL team.
'cause at least they're notpretending to be, a, a
not-for-profit, you know,enterprise that's educationally
driven.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (20:06):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (20:07):
Would there ever be like a, these,
these college teams are doingthe money play and the PE and,
and, and these college teams arejust not, it's like a normal,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (20:17):
is a lot of that.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (20:19):
that way?
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (20:20):
okay.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11 (20:20):
question.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (20:20):
and that's, and so like we talked
earlier, Notre Dame in, in 1988,it, basically negotiated its own
TV agreement with NBC exclusiveand has had that for.
I mean, we're looking likenearly 40 years.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (20:35):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (20:36):
so they, and, and you know, they
said, look, we, we can draw allthese eyeballs.
We're gonna negotiate our owndeal.
We're not going through the NCAA
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2 (20:44):
Mm-hmm.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (20:45):
That was almost the start of it.
And then the conferences havealways been kind of aggressive
on, on the element, and then itwas at revenue share at the
conference level.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (20:53):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (20:54):
But you have schools like the
Mountain West or, or conferenceslike the Mountain West.
They're, it's a have notconference.
And when you compare that to theSEC, it's a real have not
conference.
And they are now having troublecompeting.
You know, they can't competewith these guys.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-20 (21:09):
became a non-conference,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11- (21:11):
a non-conference yet.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (21:12):
that was a Power Five conference and
it got displaced.
You're
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (21:15):
Yeah, you really can't get, but those
schools can't compete becausenow you're buying talent
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (21:19):
yeah,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (21:20):
so the, you can't, a Boise State is
gonna have trouble competingagainst an Alabama where 10
years ago, Boise State was a,would compete for the national
championship.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (21:29):
Well that's the true farm system.
Now, if you will like the, thelower group of five conference,
again, we're talking football.
And probably the same inbasketball, but like, you know,
these, these lower conferences,they are basically now with the
ability to transfer, as Ed said,without having to wait a year on
your eligibility and make moremoney.
It's like these, these rostersare getting perpetually plucked
(21:51):
you know, if a, if a player islike not a great high school
player per se.
Five star, four star, they, theygo play it, uh, like Utah State
or, you know, pick any number of'em like James Madison, although
they're kicking some a thisyear.
But being is like, they'll playwell and they'll be like, oh,
it's like another farm system inbaseball.
(22:12):
So you then, you then move to ahigher, higher school after
you've been recruited and playedat this lower school.
And so it's con perpetuallybeing a feeder system.
So you think about the lack ofconsistency of rosters the power
conference, that's magnifiedtimes 10 in these
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (22:28):
Yeah.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-20 (22:29):
'cause you can't even keep anybody if
you're if, if you, if you got astar player or a coach for that
matter.
So
fashizzle-baloo--it-is- (22:35):
private equity is just gonna exacerbate
the problem by putting moremoney into the system to be able
to pluck those players andputting in the discipline of the
analytics, the kind of the, thepieces they'll take, they'll,
they'll put Moneyball to play incollege athletics more so than
it already is.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (22:53):
Yeah.
Be
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (22:54):
Ever moved to the NFL?
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (22:57):
Well, it's already there.
I, I believe, and certainly inbaseball too, like there are
private.
Funds that are invested infranchises to some degree, maybe
not the majority stake, butcertainly minority stakes
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_ (23:12):
know the Packers didn't they go
public?
So like the public can own.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_ (23:15):
public since like 1920.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2 (23:17):
that's, yeah, definitely
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (23:18):
Okay.
fashizzle-baloo--it-i (23:18):
publicly, they're publicly owned, but,
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (23:20):
yeah.
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (23:20):
and there used to, the Celtics used
to be publicly owned as well,and they went private.
But you have, you have a numberof, like the NFL for instance,
basically has a very rigorousmethodology by which they vet
ownership.
And so it's difficult to be anNFL majority owner and.
make enough money that they maynot, but what you do see is they
(23:42):
are ruthless.
They've been ruthless business,business people since the
beginning, basically since, youknow, the, the ROSELL era and
the, the combination of theA-F-L-N-F-L and that, and
they're making good money, butanywhere there's money, there's
an opportunity for privateequity to figure out how to, if,
(24:03):
if there's money andinefficiency.
Private equity will find a wayto get themselves in there.
And it could be on theoperational side, it could be on
STA Stadium Construction.
It could be any of those things.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (24:13):
Yeah.
Well, and we talked a couplepods ago about, EA Sports and
Saudi Wealth Fund.
I mean, so, you know, sovereignwealth funds are, are.
Very prevalent is investorsglobally outside of the us.
So in, in football clubs, youknow, English football clubs or
European football clubs, there'sa lot of investment from, um,
(24:36):
you know, sovereign wealth fundsand other, other big funds like
that.
So it's definitely not novel.
Ed made a good point aboutthere's a, maybe a more vetting
process.
It's not just a free market theus but I don't see why that will
stay the case forever if
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_15 (24:51):
Is it at the college level though?
At like the university level?
Worldwide.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (24:56):
Uh, not that I might, not that I'm
aware of.
No, no.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (25:00):
Okay.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (25:00):
have a, we have a fairly unique,
yeah, we have a fairly uniquecollege sports.
I mean, you have college schoolseverywhere, almost everywhere,
but it is not like the US.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (25:11):
makes America great in my opinion.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_15 (25:17):
if this goes through, who are the
winners and losers?
Like, are there sponsors ordonors to these big SEC teams
that like lose sway?
Is that a loser or do they finda way to plug themselves into
the system?
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (25:30):
are,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_1 (25:30):
The winner.
I think ultimately you're gonnahave two, you're gonna have two
big winners.
I think big winner number one isgoing to be the student athlete.
Because you're gonna continue topump money in.
I think talent, it's gonna betalent acquisition, so it's
gonna start looking more andmore like Hollywood and less and
less like college athletics.
So it's gonna be, you know, thestudent athlete is gonna have
(25:53):
the ability to get paid more.
The private equity folks aregonna be able to structure an IL
deals with, you know, othercompanies to get the preferred
folks paid more.
And so I think the collegeathlete will ultimately.
Will ultimately benefit so thetalent will benefit.
And I think private equity willbenefit.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (26:11):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11- (26:11):
I think it, you know, they, they
rarely go into something wherethey're, where they don't
benefit, you know, so it's, soit's gonna, they'll structure it
in such a way that they takeadvantage of those areas where
there's inefficiencies to behad, where they can participate
fully and, you know, whetherthat's stadium construction or,
or any of those kind of things,they'll do well.
Um, who's gonna suffer, I thinkultimately.
(26:33):
Is going to be the fan who isgonna be kind of faced with a
magnification or intensificationof what we've already seen with,
you know, schools moving aroundand working for better deals
and, and players moving aroundlooking for better deals of
coaches.
And then the other one that Ithink is gonna lose ultimately
is going to be the institutionwho used to be able to, and,
(26:55):
the, and the conferences.
So the traditional college.
Infrastructure around sportswhere they used to be able to do
two things.
One, these two sports, men'sbasketball, men's football would
subsidize all the other sports.
So that money would all comeinto the university and then
would be used to subsidizewomen's water polo and you know,
(27:17):
men's track and field.
And now that's not gonna happen.
And then,'cause that money'sgonna be.
Off to athletes and privateequity.
And the college itself I thinkis gonna struggle with a lot of
folks.
And again, I Rory's a UDub grad.
I'm a grad of multipleinstitutions with college
football programs, and we tendto have a strong emotional
(27:40):
connection with our alma materthrough that sports program.
And if that sports program kindof
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (27:46):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (27:46):
to feel too businessy, that
emotional connection will startto fray and.
Folks coming up through thesystem won't build that same
loyalty to the alma mater that,that we did growing up.
And I think that's, that's gonnabe the fundamental difference.
That's, that's where you'relosing.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (28:02):
the consumer might suffer, but we'll
see, you know, how durable thatis over time, you know, like who
knows what kind of, um,additional innovations.
I mean, I'm already thinking tomyself like changing the rules
to grant even more eligibilityto these folks so that they stay
in the system and they don't goto the NFL because maybe they
don't have as much incentive.
(28:22):
Uh, because they're making moremoney in college.
That's actually alreadyhappening that way.
But this would be an even much.
potential for that if you havegoverning bodies changing, you
know, the NC a a is alreadysomewhat impotent, if you will,
in so many ways.
And it's gonna become even moreso over time if, uh, if more
(28:43):
private interests get involved.
So, you know, we'll see.
Um, it is here, I mean, it'shappening.
It's, it's definitely not atheoretical at this point,
whereas, like I said, five yearsago, I would've thought it would
be like, no way.
But yeah, there's a will.
There's way.
emily-sander_1_11- (29:00):
Predictions, will this happen?
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (29:02):
Hmm.
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (29:03):
How soon
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_15 (29:03):
I
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025_1 (29:04):
and what will the result be?
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (29:05):
yeah, I mean, you know, doubling on a
couple of our episodes, I meanlike, call it 18 to 24 months
from now when we can invest inprivate equity out of our 401k
as retail investors, like we, wecan have exposure to this asset
class on our own, you know?
So yeah, it's happening and it,
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (29:22):
it It'll happen.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_ (29:24):
for
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11 (29:24):
it will happen.
I think it'll even happen.
Yeah.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (29:26):
this business, it's gonna happen.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_11- (29:28):
I think it'll happen sooner than
24 months.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (29:30):
it is as big, if not bigger than
the NFL, quite honestly.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (29:34):
Yep.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (29:34):
have simply more programs.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (29:36):
Yep.
I, I think it'll happen.
It'll happen within the nextyear.
I think you'll see the first, Ithink you'll see the first
investments and it's funny, Iwas thinking about,
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (29:45):
be in the conferences.
They'll be like
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1 (29:47):
yeah.
rory-liebhart_1_11 (29:47):
partnerships with the
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (29:48):
Yep.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (29:49):
sure.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (29:49):
And, and they're ready in the bowl
games.
And I'll bet you the NCAA con,uh.
March Madness becomes part of,becomes one of the early
dominoes to fall.
I think the other piece I wasjust thinking about, the losers.
My old law firm in Syracuse hada significant NCAA practice
working, working through the,um, eligibility issues and, you
(30:13):
know, whether folks were onprobation and dealing with, with
some of the issues forenforcement from the NC two A,
they're gonna be a loser.
Because there's
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (30:22):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is-_1_ (30:22):
less of that.
'cause it's, as Rory noted, it'salways been there.
And so they would hire, hire ourfirm to kind of clean up a lot
of this stuff.
Well, now it's all in the openand it's fine.
rory-liebhart_1_11 (30:32):
institution.
Let's be real about
fashizzle-baloo--it-is (30:34):
They're,
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-202 (30:34):
Yeah.
fashizzle-baloo--it-is (30:35):
probably struggling now'cause they used
to represent the, the collegesagainst the NC two A on on
violations and so there'sprobably fewer violations and
the lawyers are gonna, Rory hadtalked about the lawyers are
gonna get busy.
Well that particular firm'slawyers are gonna struggle a
little bit'cause they gonna befewer violations for them to
defend.
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025 (30:54):
good point.
Yeah.
Point
emily-sander_1_11-1 (30:59):
experience, and we will probably follow up
with this one as well in
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (31:02):
is one to watch.
emily-sander_1_11-1 (31:04):
predictions and see how they roll out.
But
rory-liebhart_1_11-11-2025_1 (31:07):
Go
emily-sander_1_11-11-2025 (31:07):
thank you, ed.
Thank.
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