Ep. 91: Craig Jones, TPE Boulder | Scaling Value in the Lower Middle Market through Strategic Growth
September 18, 2025 • 37 mins
On this episode Shiv Narayanan interviews Craig Jones of TPE Boulder to discuss value creation in lower middle market private equity, focusing on smaller companies with $2-5 million in EBITDA.
Craig shares TPE Boulder’s approach to scaling businesses through organic growth, emphasizing diversification by location and provider, strengthening management teams, and addressing technology deficits. He explains how they align with founders on a 5-year growth plan, manage key risks like founder dependency, and prioritize initiatives to ensure scalability without overwhelming limited resources.
Craig also highlights the importance of investing in high-growth healthcare markets, such as neuropathy treatment and interventional radiology, to drive enterprise value and attract larger PE buyers for higher EBITDA multiples at exit.
The information contained in this podcast is not intended to constitute, and should not be construed as, investment advice.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey everybody, before we jump into today's episode, I just
want to point out a few ways in which you can work with us here
at How to sass #1. If you're an investor and you're
in the middle of a transaction and you want to figure out what
is the marketing potential of the target investment that I'm
looking at, you can engage with us in the due diligence
engagement or within two weeks, we can give you a very clear
picture of all the levers withinthe marketing function of that
(00:22):
organization for them to drive more revenue and pipeline for
the business while being incredibly efficient #2.
If you're the founder, CEO, operator, or investor of a
company or marketing is just under leveraged and it's seen as
a growth lever where that requires more investment.
We can come in and do a deep dive across three to four months
and analyze all the opportunities within that
(00:43):
business on the marketing side by looking at demand Gen. paid
media, account based marketing, content marketing, product
marketing, SEO, website, and much more.
And come back with a set of recommendations and a road map
for what marketing needs to execute against to drive more
enterprise value for that business.
And #3 if you're the CEO of a company that doesn't have a CMO
(01:04):
right now or there is a gap in the organization because of VP
marketing, CMO was recently transitioned out.
We can come in in a fractional CMO capacity and partner with
you on that business and lead the internal team and the
operational plan so that the marketing function continues to
make progress and drive more pipeline and revenue.
And will also help you hire yournext CMO by being part of that
(01:28):
hiring process and on board thatnew person once they're ready to
join the organization so that they get a running start.
These three types of engagementsare some of the most common ways
in which investors, CEOs and companies work with us.
And we have a proven track record of driving a ton of
enterprise value and revenue growth across those companies.
To learn more, go to www.hassas.com where you'll get
(01:50):
a lot more information in terms of the types of engagements I've
described. And you can see case studies and
other examples of the work that we've done.
So you have a lot more confidence in partnering with
us. And with that said, let's get to
the episode. Enjoy the show.
Welcome to the Private Equity Value Creation Podcast where we
interview leading investors, operators, bankers, and advisors
(02:11):
to help you. Answer one question.
How do we increase the enterprise value of our
companies? My name is Shiva Narayanan and
each episode I will dive deep with a guest to help you become
a better value creator and. Capital.
Allocator. So with that said, let's jump
right in and let's get started with today's episode.
(02:31):
The guest today is Craig Jones of TPP Boulder.
And what's really interesting about this episode is that Craig
and his team invest in much smaller companies than most
private equity firms. And they found that it generates
a ton of margin and value creation opportunities for them
because there's more room to grow these companies from the
(02:52):
ground up. And a lot of the value creation
opportunities have not really been invested into inside these
companies. So I really enjoyed the
conversation with Craig because I and then we meet a lot of PE
investors. They're often running similar
playbooks for a lot of their companies, especially when
they're mature, they're cost takeouts or finding efficiencies
or running pricing plays or making sales a little bit more
(03:15):
efficient. But when you look at companies
that are earlier stage, the entirety of the business has not
been figured out. And so that's really
interesting, right, Because in some ways you don't really know
what the business is going to bewhen it grows up.
And Craig talks a lot about thatand you can explore a bunch of
value creation opportunities from the product side to the
sales side, the marketing side, and, and, and everywhere else.
(03:37):
So I really liked a lot of the examples Craig used in the
episode and how he talks about generating enterprise value for
different companies, especially where the founders are pivotal
to the business and there's a vertical focus and a bunch of
other characteristics that make it worthy of investment.
So with that said, I'll leave you to it.
Enjoy the episode. Alright, Craig, welcome to the
(04:05):
show. How's it going?
Very good. Thank you.
Glad to be here. Yeah, excited to have you on.
So why don't we start by giving an overview about TP Boulder and
yourself, and let's go from there.
Great. Well, TP Boulder is a private
equity firm focused, you know here in Boulder, Co and we focus
(04:27):
at the very what is known as thevery low end of the mid market.
So Lydia and myself are the two professionals here.
We invest in companies that are big enough and profitable enough
to attract third party debt, typically making a minimum of 2
(04:49):
million of EBITDA, up to about 5million of EBITDA and undergoing
majority control transactions. Got it.
And why, why on the lower end ofthe middle on the of the market,
there's a lot of key firms that chase like middle market type of
businesses. But tell me about the focus here
and and what expertise you're bringing to these companies.
(05:11):
Well, it's really twofold. 1 is that I was a venture capitalist
for 20 years, so I know how to deal with small companies and
the sort of unique challenges that under resourced companies
face that. The second thing is that we feel
that the very low end of the midmarket offers the highest return
(05:35):
potential. Arguably it's also riskier.
These are smaller, more fragile companies, but the returns have
been above the the median even for the mid market.
And one of the major reasons forthat ship is because the
multiple expansion opportunity is greater.
(05:56):
By that I mean you're buying in typically for let's say five
times EBITDA and you're hoping to sell at 7 to 8 to 9 times
even depending on how robust themarket is at that time.
So when you add the the fact that a small company can grow
(06:19):
faster, the rule of small numbers, and the fact that
you're getting in at a good price, the upside is excellent.
Right. Yeah, I've, I've heard this from
other PE investors that invest down market as well.
It's just smaller companies justhave more value creation
(06:39):
opportunities and they have an optimized for a lot of things
that a lot of larger companies have.
And also there's lesser competition in some ways because
there aren't enough PE firms focused on this stage of
business. That's right.
I mean, we, we, we hope and expect that we can get these
companies to the point where they attract the interest of the
(07:03):
larger PE firms five years down the line.
So if we're taking a company that's at 5 million of EBITDA
and you can get it to 10 millionof Evita, you attract an
entirely different universe of potential buyers.
Yeah, totally. So talk about the talk about
your approach to these companies, like as you're coming
in, obviously you're a smaller firm, like how do you look at
(07:25):
that? How do you look to generate a
return on your on your investment?
And what are some of the value creation levers or what's your
philosophy beyond in terms of value creation for these
companies? Well, Shiv, we, we rely heavily
on 2 metrics that we use as, as our, let's say, universal
(07:47):
screening opportunity. The 1st is the Rule of 40, which
we apply across both our healthcare and our software
companies. The Rule of 40 being the
combination of annual revenue, revenue growth and the EBITDA
margin. And if you're growing 20% a year
and you have 20% EBITDA margins,you have the opportunity to
(08:10):
escape, continue to scale and doso with organically generated
operating profits. The second thing we look at is
that rule of 40 against the EBITDA multiple that you're
paying to see whether or not you're paying a premium for that
excellent performance. So when we look at these
(08:33):
companies, they have existing momentum.
The existing entrepreneur is doing a good job of growing the
company. The question is, can that
scaling opportunity continue to happen over the next five years?
And the single biggest limiting factor in these very small
(08:56):
companies is the depth of the management team.
They're highly reliant on the chief executive officer, and
they're almost always gaps in the next level of management.
So one of the things that we do is, you know, a management
inventory with the chief executive officer to determine
(09:19):
what are the gaps. Do they need a professional vice
president of sales, for example?Do they need a chief financial
officer or a VP of finance and identifying those gaps early on
and timing the addition? And I say timing because
(09:41):
remember, you don't want to crush the Eva Taha, which is
easy to do by adding a lot of overhead in these small
companies. So you have to bring in the
additional level of talent as it's needed, not necessarily day
one. Yeah, Yeah.
I think that's a huge point is that in a lot of founder LED
(10:02):
companies, the CEO is there's a key man risk almost.
And so looking at the managementside is, is super important.
But it doesn't that get tricky because these while these
companies might be profitable orhave rule of 40, they have
almost like an operational capacity in terms of how much
expense run rate they can handleto actually grow the business.
(10:23):
So how do you navigate that in terms of professionalizing the
business versus the added cost of that might require?
Yeah. So when we're modeling these
things out, we we add the expenses that are going to be
necessary to have a complete management team.
So you're going to have to have operations, sales and marketing,
(10:45):
technology, finance with some level of bench management in it.
The second factor is that almostalways these companies have a
tech deficit. And so we're going to be
layering on another level of technology into these companies
(11:07):
that is often a year long project involves several
$100,000 worth of expenditures both for licenses and initial
implementation and training and so forth.
And so we will put those in the model and that's part of the
discussion that you have to havewith the founders.
(11:27):
What is the true EBITDA of the business once these sort of
first level expenses are added? So the two sort of tricks to the
trade are #1 you need to give that founder, if you're hoping
that he or she is going to continue to run the company for
(11:47):
the next 5 years, you have to offer them a second bite of the
apple. And our pitch is that the second
bite of the apple can and often is bigger than the first bite.
So if you're selling 60% or 70% of your company day one and we
have the opportunity to make five times our money, if we're
(12:09):
successful, you're going to havea bigger, much bigger bite of
the apple the second time aroundand you're going to scale with
our help. And so that's trick #1 trick
number 2 is the question, is that person willing and able to
stay for five years? Or is there a transition plan
(12:29):
that is necessary? So in many of these companies,
we look for either an internal promote somebody who has been
with the company for a length oftime and and sometimes she have
the, the founder has been running this business for 20
years. They may be tired, they may no
longer be full time involved in the company.
(12:51):
Even when we get involved and somebody else is already in fact
running the company or we need to go out and hire a new chief
executive officer. So having an honest and open and
complete discussion about transition, what that looks
like, when it is who an ideal candidate, all those discussions
(13:14):
need to happen up front. And when you look at that, help
me understand that. So when you're coming in and
you're having these kinds of conversations up front, like how
are you building this value creation plan in partnership
with the CEO because they may want to transition out, yet the
business is kind of dependent onthem.
And at the same time, you've also you as an investor stick
(13:36):
around to see the next phase of the business through in
partnership with you, right. So I'm assuming majority of the
time you that CEO is staying in place.
So beyond just the financial side, like how are you working
with them to make sure that theyare still interested in seeing
this through with you as a partner?
Well, shit, that's a an excellent question.
(13:58):
And here, you know, it's, it's more art than science.
So there has to be a a level of self-awareness on the side of
the founder as to what his or her strengths and weaknesses are
and what help they need. And if they have an accurate and
(14:20):
open assessment of that, then it's has the opportunity to be a
great relationship. And if they don't, it has an
opportunity to be a train wreck.So you, you really have to
assess how well that person's self recognition is.
We do a lot of healthcare services deals and many of the
(14:43):
founders are often MD's. They don't necessarily think of
themselves as great business people.
They think of themselves first and foremost as physicians.
They've obviously grown something highly attractive.
It, you know, I always say the hardest thing in the world to do
is go from zero to something. And they've done that.
(15:05):
And so the question is, can you take this great business that
they've built based on the fundamentals?
Are you doing something for patients that they can't get
otherwise that is better for them and better for their health
that is reimbursed by some combination of we're looking
(15:30):
private payers or private pay and can that model be replicated
in additional locations? So typically a physician often
is great at everything that theycan personally touch.
And they may have built a business of of scale, they may
(15:51):
have built a, a several $1,000,000 business with even 7
several million of EBITDA, but it's in one location.
They can literally touch and feel everything all the time,
every day. The question is, how do you
replicate that where you're not going to have that daily touch?
And of course, that means that you have to have management
(16:14):
systems and you have to have managers in the other locations
that are empowered and trained and have access to information
and have enough support to be successful elsewhere.
So when we've taken companies and replicated them from one to
(16:34):
three locations to many more andthen you have a opportunity to
scale enormously. Remember, this is all organic
growth and the capital expenditures are typically not
severe. You're talking about at least
some medical equipment. There is some lag time to get up
(16:58):
and running in a new medical location there.
You have to have good real estate.
You have to have that real estate be properly certified by
the local authorities. You have to have the right
physician there, then the support staff for that
physician. And so you you need to start
(17:20):
thinking about well what, what'snecessary to create that?
Do you need a head of real estate, for example, who is
going to be full time looking for these locations?
We have that position in some ofour companies.
Sometimes it sits under the operations head.
Yeah, and. So that that I mean, that makes
that makes so much sense. What what it beyond some of
(17:42):
these examples, like what would be the main value creation
levers that you're looking at asyou're looking at these
companies, especially at the scale?
Because a lot of people firms have almost like, I don't want
to say predefined playbooks, butthere it's kind of like a rinse
and repeat. Every company kind of has a
similar playbook. They look at pricing, they look
at sales efficiency. Is that kind of how you look at
(18:04):
value creation through, especially since these
businesses are earlier stage? Are there, is it more on a
custom basis you're looking at acompany by company and trying to
figure out what works or do you have a defined playbook that
you're bringing to these companies And how much does that
affect also the companies that you invest in on the front end
where you based on where you know you can actually help them?
(18:26):
We do not look at companies to invest in where we have to
change the fundamental operational effectiveness of the
company. What we're doing is scaling the
business and making sure that the wheels don't fall off as you
(18:50):
grow. And so it's about protecting
yourself. Once you have a greater
distance, greater scale, multiple locations, how do you
have accountability? So you're taking that founder
ingenuity, that knowledge about the patients, the knowledge
(19:11):
about the payers, the knowledge about the treatments and then
expanding that beyond that initial individual.
So it is all about diversification, diversification
by location, diversification by provider concentration.
(19:32):
So if we're taking over a company that has significant
provider concentration based on that original founder and five
years later we have half a dozenproviders, we've lowered the
risk for the next buyer significantly.
Likewise, if we're starting out only proving the concept in one
(19:58):
location and now we have it in three cities.
We've diversified from a location standpoint and that's
highly attractive to the next buyer.
So rather than looking at it as something where each element of
the business needs to be changed, it's more about how do
(20:19):
you scale and replicate? How do you take that founder
knowledge and expertise and ingenuity and replicated, Yeah,
are you? Having some of these
conversations with the founder during the LOI to close phase
and saying like here's kind of how we see this or areas of risk
(20:41):
that we need to address post close.
Yeah. I mean, there, there there is a
five year plan, there there is 100 day plan, there's a, you
know, clear agreement upon what level of growth is achievable
and has a reasonable risk profile associated with it.
(21:06):
Hmm. And have deals fallen apart if
you can get alignment on that, because I'm assuming founders
always have their own ideas of how they want to grow the
business or what the focus area should be like.
How are you finding alignment atthat phase to ensure that the
transaction also happens? While the places where deals can
(21:26):
fall apart are Include the following.
If you're changing states, for example, you're currently in
Georgia and you want to go to Virginia and you want to go.
Each state is a different marketin healthcare and honestly every
(21:47):
city is different. The reason why each state is
different is because healthcare insurance is a state by state
adjudication in the United States and even if it has the
same parent company, the reimbursement rules, the rules
on how that specific procedure is reimbursed and the
(22:10):
documentation requirements, etcetera may differ considerably
by state. So if if you find that the going
from state to state causes you to in your due diligence process
causes you heartburn, then you might say, well, maybe this
didn't have the scale that we wethought it would have.
(22:31):
Second of all, you have to be able to recruit providers in
these other locations. And typically we wanna test that
out by seeing if we can find people who are interested in the
jobs even if we're not hiring them until closing.
Yeah, yeah, that. I mean that makes that makes a
lot of sense. What about prioritization like
(22:53):
at the scale of these companies,you know we look at larger
companies, they have a lot more in terms of resources.
So they can do cross sell and upsell as a value creation lever
and they can do pricing and theycan do sales efficiency and
overall go to market or scaling their marketing efforts, they
can kind of do it and then they can layer in M&A and all of
that. But these these smaller EBITDA
(23:14):
levels, you there are trade-offs, there are real
trade-offs and limited resourcesthere.
How are you approaching that? Like what's your process to
figure out like what you're actually going to focus on or
where the where the highest leverage area is for the
business? Well, shit, I always tell my
CEO's that the most important piece of technology that they
(23:38):
have to focus on is the clock. As you point out, there's only
so many hours in the day. And if they're at it 12 hours a
day and they could be pulled 1000 different directions
because, you know, oftentimes virtually every employee reports
directly to them. So one of the things you got to
(24:00):
do is stop that. You got to give the CEO time to
be able to think on different dimensions.
So the analogy I use is when youthink about the clock, think
about how much of your time is spent with the microscope, which
is what they typically are using95% of the time.
(24:22):
How much of the time are you using a binocular and how much
of your time are you using a telescope?
And think of, think of the, the microscope as focusing on
day-to-day activities and what has to be done that day, by
whom, who, what employees showedup or didn't show up, what
(24:44):
patient has an issue, etcetera. The, the, the mid, mid term is,
you know, what do we have to do in order to accomplish the next
quarters worth of, of growth And, and the telescope is what
are we trying to be when we growup?
What kind of business be trying to grow and if the CEO isn't
able to spend a significant portion of their time in all
(25:08):
three areas, they're going to just continue to be in the
position where they're doing theday-to-day, day-to-day 99% of
the time. And that's where they were when
we met them and we got to stop that.
And typically that means one of two things you either have to
hire somebody else or you have to delegate better.
(25:30):
And delegating, as you know, forfounders is is hard and they
have to, you know, exercise thatmuscle.
Right. Yeah, I think, I think that's a
huge element inside companies because distraction is the
enemy, right. So especially when you have
limited resources, how can you really focus on the things that
(25:50):
really move the needle? And I guess the connected
question to this would be, how are you looking at this these
focus areas and priorities and how does that connect with your
exit strategy and positioning the business for the next buyer?
Yeah. So, you know, if we invest in
(26:10):
good markets that continue to begrowth markets for the next 5
years, we have every chance to be successful.
And if we don't, we won't be. So I've been doing health care
services deals for 35 years as aventure capitalist and a private
equity guy. So I have a very good sense of
(26:31):
areas that we want to be involved with.
And there's so much happening today that is revolutionizing
healthcare. And example of course would be
the GOP drugs that have just come out that are
revolutionizing metabolic healthcare, weight control and
even anti aging. And so you you look at these
(26:55):
long term health trends, obesityand diabetes have been a problem
in this country for 25 years andwill be a problem going forward.
So you ask yourself what is happening today that could
(27:16):
improve the lives of these people?
And so an example would be I'm on a board of a company in
Dallas, TX called the New Promise Neuropathy that is one
of the leading providers in the Dallas Fort Worth area and
expanding elsewhere in Texas to helping people deal with that
(27:40):
peripheral pain typically in thefeet from lack of circulation,
typically from diabetes. And so this company has a proven
protocol that includes Electro stimulation and multiple visits
(28:01):
that receives Medicare reimbursement.
And so by bringing these Medicare patients in for a
series of visits, we can start to increase their mobility,
which means they are now moving more, which improves their
overall health. It is a downward spiral when
(28:24):
you're suffering from chronic pain and that impacts your
mobility due to an underlying metabolic disease.
And so because I've been investing in and around this
space for many years, I know that to be a particular pain
point, no pun intended. And and so we know that that's a
(28:48):
good area to be involved with. So if we execute well, we
continue to have the highest standards of medical care.
Then the question, and this getsback to your earlier question
about the game book. Almost always we're going to
look for how can we diversify the services.
So the asset that we have in anyof these companies is access to
(29:11):
patients and locations. If we can utilize that real
estate and that medical professional capability for
greater range of services, then we have a chance to really
ignite the rocket ship. So now you're not just providing
(29:32):
a pain for neuropathy, neuropathy, but you're also
providing some other allies. What other similar problems do
these same patients have that wecan treat?
How much of? This work are you thinking about
as you're making the investment and saying, OK, this is the kind
(29:53):
of process that we need to take this company through.
And also by the way, if we buildthis and we build certain
assets, it will help us when we need to exit this investment.
Because there's a certain type of buyer that will appreciate
certain assets inside this business that if we scale up,
show them a lot more potential or expand our margins or show a
(30:17):
higher multiple on EBITDA. Yeah.
I mean the investment bankers will tell us look at if you want
to attract a, you know, larger fish private equity firm to buy
your company and you want to sell at high single digit EBITDA
multiples, you need to show one that you've have a bent a bench
(30:39):
in the management team. That's the table stake #2 you
need to show diversification, diversification by location,
diversification by reimbursementcode for what you're getting
reimbursed for by payer so that you have multiple insurance
(31:00):
companies that are also reimbursing you reimbursement.
But in terms of the number of providers, if you can do those
four things, then they're takingon less risk than you took on
and they're going to pay you higher multiple.
Hmm, Yeah, I. Guess, I guess you kind of have
(31:20):
to consciously build towards that.
And I don't know if all foundersare really thinking about their
exit story, if you will, right? Because you kind of have to
figure out like what would a future buyer care about and what
are the types of potential buyers that will actually
acquire this business and which assets do we have it will that
(31:40):
they'll actually value. So I guess you're doing a lot of
that work with the founder? Yeah.
I mean, each founder is different.
They they all have a different sort of set of skills.
I would say that the, the, the most important thing in these
deals is that we have a clean, pristine track record in terms
(32:11):
of patient satisfaction. Um, no problems with any
regulatory authorities, a clean track record with the insurance
reimbursement, Our documentationis sound.
If those fundamentals are good, then you have an opportunity to
(32:32):
scale the business. If there's a problem in any one
of those areas, then we wouldn'twant to be involved in the
business. So then the question is, is this
a founder who is, you know, justthinking about how he gets some
liquidity initially, or is he somebody who also is thinking
about the next five years? And, and some, some are and some
(32:55):
aren't and some can be educated on it and some aren't.
I mean, I've lived with investment bankers selling my
businesses for 35 years. They haven't.
So the question is, are they open to the input right?
Yeah. And then if they are, and then
then you can kind of partner together and start to build a
(33:17):
lot of these core pieces together.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. I think, I think that's a,
that's a great take away. And as we're kind of coming up
on time here, I wish we had moretime to dig deeper.
But just as investors are thinking about it, even if
they're investing a larger companies or or especially
(33:38):
smaller companies, what advice would you have overall for them
in terms of how they're looking at these businesses, whether
it's in the form of the IR that they can generate or in terms of
how they operationally look to create enterprise value with
these companies? Well, I think you want to be in
the early innings of these developing medical trends.
(34:00):
So I'll give you an example. You know, we invested in a
company called Atlanta Fibroid Centre, which is the single
largest single location interventional radiology centre
in Atlanta, GA for the treatmentof uterine fibrosis.
(34:21):
And so you have a patient population, largely African
American women that are suffering from a a real malady
that is now treatable in a way that wasn't treatable 20 years
ago, but still only a small percentage of women that would
qualify for interventional radiology, which by the way, is
(34:42):
an outpatient procedure, unlike A hysterectomy, which is a
hospitalization event. So you have the chance to retain
fertilization, you have the chance to have an outpatient
event, which is much less costlyand much better for the woman.
And yet only a small percentage of women who qualify for this
(35:04):
procedure are getting it. So we know we're in the early
innings. We know that it works.
We know that it's better for thepatient.
The question is, can we take this beautifully run centre in
Atlanta, GA and expand it to other locations?
We're not the only private equity firm doing this, but we
(35:25):
have a beautiful model to to to replicate.
So the fundamental question is, are you helping patients?
Are you in the early innings of a change?
Is this something that is neededthat saves the system money?
That is a win, win, win, win forthe patient's, win for the
(35:46):
payers and still provides a goodmargin for us, yeah.
I think I think that's a really important take away is just
really understanding the market and the customers and whether
that will continue to hold true.And if it is serving all of
these different parties, then the investment thesis in and of
itself will be will be realized.So I think I think that's a
(36:07):
that's a really great, really great take away.
Before we close off, Craig, whatare some ways that people can
get in touch with you or learn more about TP Boulder?
Yes. So obviously we have a website
at www.tpboulder.com and myself,Craig Jones or or Lydia Jones,
(36:31):
the 22 professionals here, they can contact either of us.
Excellent. Yeah, we'll.
Be sure to include that in the show notes and all the links as
well. And with that said, Craig,
thanks for coming and sharing your wisdom.
I thought it was super interesting, especially given
the sizes of business that you're investing in.
I think a lot of investors that are looking at companies at
different stages can learn a lotfrom it.
So appreciate you doing this. That's my.
(36:52):
Pleasure. Thanks a lot, Jeff.
Thanks for listening today's episode.
Before you take off, just a few requests from our side.
Number one, if you haven't done so already, please subscribe to
the podcast on iTunes or Spotifyor YouTube or wherever you go to
listen to your podcast #2 if youare in the market for due
diligence services, strategy consulting, or fractional CMO
(37:15):
services, please get in touch with us at www.hassas.com.
And 3rd, please buy a copy of mynew book, Exit Ready Marketing.
It covers a ton of concepts thatwe take our customers through
private equity investors to be company CEOs.
Operating partners and. Marketers and there's a ton of
great value in there that expands on my previous book post
(37:37):
acquisition Marketing as well. So with that said, I hope you
enjoyed today's content and we'll see you on the next
episode.
Hey everybody, before we jump into today's episode, I just
want to point out a few ways in which you can work with us here
at How to sass #1. If you're an investor and you're
in the middle of a transaction and you want to figure out what
is the marketing potential of the target investment that I'm
looking at, you can engage with us in the due diligence
engagement or within two weeks, we can give you a very clear
picture of all the levers withinthe marketing function of that
(00:22):
organization for them to drive more revenue and pipeline for
the business while being incredibly efficient #2.
If you're the founder, CEO, operator, or investor of a
company or marketing is just under leveraged and it's seen as
a growth lever where that requires more investment.
We can come in and do a deep dive across three to four months
and analyze all the opportunities within that
(00:43):
business on the marketing side by looking at demand Gen. paid
media, account based marketing, content marketing, product
marketing, SEO, website, and much more.
And come back with a set of recommendations and a road map
for what marketing needs to execute against to drive more
enterprise value for that business.
And #3 if you're the CEO of a company that doesn't have a CMO
(01:04):
right now or there is a gap in the organization because of VP
marketing, CMO was recently transitioned out.
We can come in in a fractional CMO capacity and partner with
you on that business and lead the internal team and the
operational plan so that the marketing function continues to
make progress and drive more pipeline and revenue.
And will also help you hire yournext CMO by being part of that
(01:28):
hiring process and on board thatnew person once they're ready to
join the organization so that they get a running start.
These three types of engagementsare some of the most common ways
in which investors, CEOs and companies work with us.
And we have a proven track record of driving a ton of
enterprise value and revenue growth across those companies.
To learn more, go to www.hassas.com where you'll get
(01:50):
a lot more information in terms of the types of engagements I've
described. And you can see case studies and
other examples of the work that we've done.
So you have a lot more confidence in partnering with
us. And with that said, let's get to
the episode. Enjoy the show.
Welcome to the Private Equity Value Creation Podcast where we
interview leading investors, operators, bankers, and advisors
(02:11):
to help you. Answer one question.
How do we increase the enterprise value of our
companies? My name is Shiva Narayanan and
each episode I will dive deep with a guest to help you become
a better value creator and. Capital.
Allocator. So with that said, let's jump
right in and let's get started with today's episode.
(02:31):
The guest today is Craig Jones of TPP Boulder.
And what's really interesting about this episode is that Craig
and his team invest in much smaller companies than most
private equity firms. And they found that it generates
a ton of margin and value creation opportunities for them
because there's more room to grow these companies from the
(02:52):
ground up. And a lot of the value creation
opportunities have not really been invested into inside these
companies. So I really enjoyed the
conversation with Craig because I and then we meet a lot of PE
investors. They're often running similar
playbooks for a lot of their companies, especially when
they're mature, they're cost takeouts or finding efficiencies
or running pricing plays or making sales a little bit more
(03:15):
efficient. But when you look at companies
that are earlier stage, the entirety of the business has not
been figured out. And so that's really
interesting, right, Because in some ways you don't really know
what the business is going to bewhen it grows up.
And Craig talks a lot about thatand you can explore a bunch of
value creation opportunities from the product side to the
sales side, the marketing side, and, and, and everywhere else.
(03:37):
So I really liked a lot of the examples Craig used in the
episode and how he talks about generating enterprise value for
different companies, especially where the founders are pivotal
to the business and there's a vertical focus and a bunch of
other characteristics that make it worthy of investment.
So with that said, I'll leave you to it.
Enjoy the episode. Alright, Craig, welcome to the
(04:05):
show. How's it going?
Very good. Thank you.
Glad to be here. Yeah, excited to have you on.
So why don't we start by giving an overview about TP Boulder and
yourself, and let's go from there.
Great. Well, TP Boulder is a private
equity firm focused, you know here in Boulder, Co and we focus
(04:27):
at the very what is known as thevery low end of the mid market.
So Lydia and myself are the two professionals here.
We invest in companies that are big enough and profitable enough
to attract third party debt, typically making a minimum of 2
(04:49):
million of EBITDA, up to about 5million of EBITDA and undergoing
majority control transactions. Got it.
And why, why on the lower end ofthe middle on the of the market,
there's a lot of key firms that chase like middle market type of
businesses. But tell me about the focus here
and and what expertise you're bringing to these companies.
(05:11):
Well, it's really twofold. 1 is that I was a venture capitalist
for 20 years, so I know how to deal with small companies and
the sort of unique challenges that under resourced companies
face that. The second thing is that we feel
that the very low end of the midmarket offers the highest return
(05:35):
potential. Arguably it's also riskier.
These are smaller, more fragile companies, but the returns have
been above the the median even for the mid market.
And one of the major reasons forthat ship is because the
multiple expansion opportunity is greater.
(05:56):
By that I mean you're buying in typically for let's say five
times EBITDA and you're hoping to sell at 7 to 8 to 9 times
even depending on how robust themarket is at that time.
So when you add the the fact that a small company can grow
(06:19):
faster, the rule of small numbers, and the fact that
you're getting in at a good price, the upside is excellent.
Right. Yeah, I've, I've heard this from
other PE investors that invest down market as well.
It's just smaller companies justhave more value creation
(06:39):
opportunities and they have an optimized for a lot of things
that a lot of larger companies have.
And also there's lesser competition in some ways because
there aren't enough PE firms focused on this stage of
business. That's right.
I mean, we, we, we hope and expect that we can get these
companies to the point where they attract the interest of the
(07:03):
larger PE firms five years down the line.
So if we're taking a company that's at 5 million of EBITDA
and you can get it to 10 millionof Evita, you attract an
entirely different universe of potential buyers.
Yeah, totally. So talk about the talk about
your approach to these companies, like as you're coming
in, obviously you're a smaller firm, like how do you look at
(07:25):
that? How do you look to generate a
return on your on your investment?
And what are some of the value creation levers or what's your
philosophy beyond in terms of value creation for these
companies? Well, Shiv, we, we rely heavily
on 2 metrics that we use as, as our, let's say, universal
(07:47):
screening opportunity. The 1st is the Rule of 40, which
we apply across both our healthcare and our software
companies. The Rule of 40 being the
combination of annual revenue, revenue growth and the EBITDA
margin. And if you're growing 20% a year
and you have 20% EBITDA margins,you have the opportunity to
(08:10):
escape, continue to scale and doso with organically generated
operating profits. The second thing we look at is
that rule of 40 against the EBITDA multiple that you're
paying to see whether or not you're paying a premium for that
excellent performance. So when we look at these
(08:33):
companies, they have existing momentum.
The existing entrepreneur is doing a good job of growing the
company. The question is, can that
scaling opportunity continue to happen over the next five years?
And the single biggest limiting factor in these very small
(08:56):
companies is the depth of the management team.
They're highly reliant on the chief executive officer, and
they're almost always gaps in the next level of management.
So one of the things that we do is, you know, a management
inventory with the chief executive officer to determine
(09:19):
what are the gaps. Do they need a professional vice
president of sales, for example?Do they need a chief financial
officer or a VP of finance and identifying those gaps early on
and timing the addition? And I say timing because
(09:41):
remember, you don't want to crush the Eva Taha, which is
easy to do by adding a lot of overhead in these small
companies. So you have to bring in the
additional level of talent as it's needed, not necessarily day
one. Yeah, Yeah.
I think that's a huge point is that in a lot of founder LED
(10:02):
companies, the CEO is there's a key man risk almost.
And so looking at the managementside is, is super important.
But it doesn't that get tricky because these while these
companies might be profitable orhave rule of 40, they have
almost like an operational capacity in terms of how much
expense run rate they can handleto actually grow the business.
(10:23):
So how do you navigate that in terms of professionalizing the
business versus the added cost of that might require?
Yeah. So when we're modeling these
things out, we we add the expenses that are going to be
necessary to have a complete management team.
So you're going to have to have operations, sales and marketing,
(10:45):
technology, finance with some level of bench management in it.
The second factor is that almostalways these companies have a
tech deficit. And so we're going to be
layering on another level of technology into these companies
(11:07):
that is often a year long project involves several
$100,000 worth of expenditures both for licenses and initial
implementation and training and so forth.
And so we will put those in the model and that's part of the
discussion that you have to havewith the founders.
(11:27):
What is the true EBITDA of the business once these sort of
first level expenses are added? So the two sort of tricks to the
trade are #1 you need to give that founder, if you're hoping
that he or she is going to continue to run the company for
(11:47):
the next 5 years, you have to offer them a second bite of the
apple. And our pitch is that the second
bite of the apple can and often is bigger than the first bite.
So if you're selling 60% or 70% of your company day one and we
have the opportunity to make five times our money, if we're
(12:09):
successful, you're going to havea bigger, much bigger bite of
the apple the second time aroundand you're going to scale with
our help. And so that's trick #1 trick
number 2 is the question, is that person willing and able to
stay for five years? Or is there a transition plan
(12:29):
that is necessary? So in many of these companies,
we look for either an internal promote somebody who has been
with the company for a length oftime and and sometimes she have
the, the founder has been running this business for 20
years. They may be tired, they may no
longer be full time involved in the company.
(12:51):
Even when we get involved and somebody else is already in fact
running the company or we need to go out and hire a new chief
executive officer. So having an honest and open and
complete discussion about transition, what that looks
like, when it is who an ideal candidate, all those discussions
(13:14):
need to happen up front. And when you look at that, help
me understand that. So when you're coming in and
you're having these kinds of conversations up front, like how
are you building this value creation plan in partnership
with the CEO because they may want to transition out, yet the
business is kind of dependent onthem.
And at the same time, you've also you as an investor stick
(13:36):
around to see the next phase of the business through in
partnership with you, right. So I'm assuming majority of the
time you that CEO is staying in place.
So beyond just the financial side, like how are you working
with them to make sure that theyare still interested in seeing
this through with you as a partner?
Well, shit, that's a an excellent question.
(13:58):
And here, you know, it's, it's more art than science.
So there has to be a a level of self-awareness on the side of
the founder as to what his or her strengths and weaknesses are
and what help they need. And if they have an accurate and
(14:20):
open assessment of that, then it's has the opportunity to be a
great relationship. And if they don't, it has an
opportunity to be a train wreck.So you, you really have to
assess how well that person's self recognition is.
We do a lot of healthcare services deals and many of the
(14:43):
founders are often MD's. They don't necessarily think of
themselves as great business people.
They think of themselves first and foremost as physicians.
They've obviously grown something highly attractive.
It, you know, I always say the hardest thing in the world to do
is go from zero to something. And they've done that.
(15:05):
And so the question is, can you take this great business that
they've built based on the fundamentals?
Are you doing something for patients that they can't get
otherwise that is better for them and better for their health
that is reimbursed by some combination of we're looking
(15:30):
private payers or private pay and can that model be replicated
in additional locations? So typically a physician often
is great at everything that theycan personally touch.
And they may have built a business of of scale, they may
(15:51):
have built a, a several $1,000,000 business with even 7
several million of EBITDA, but it's in one location.
They can literally touch and feel everything all the time,
every day. The question is, how do you
replicate that where you're not going to have that daily touch?
And of course, that means that you have to have management
(16:14):
systems and you have to have managers in the other locations
that are empowered and trained and have access to information
and have enough support to be successful elsewhere.
So when we've taken companies and replicated them from one to
(16:34):
three locations to many more andthen you have a opportunity to
scale enormously. Remember, this is all organic
growth and the capital expenditures are typically not
severe. You're talking about at least
some medical equipment. There is some lag time to get up
(16:58):
and running in a new medical location there.
You have to have good real estate.
You have to have that real estate be properly certified by
the local authorities. You have to have the right
physician there, then the support staff for that
physician. And so you you need to start
(17:20):
thinking about well what, what'snecessary to create that?
Do you need a head of real estate, for example, who is
going to be full time looking for these locations?
We have that position in some ofour companies.
Sometimes it sits under the operations head.
Yeah, and. So that that I mean, that makes
that makes so much sense. What what it beyond some of
(17:42):
these examples, like what would be the main value creation
levers that you're looking at asyou're looking at these
companies, especially at the scale?
Because a lot of people firms have almost like, I don't want
to say predefined playbooks, butthere it's kind of like a rinse
and repeat. Every company kind of has a
similar playbook. They look at pricing, they look
at sales efficiency. Is that kind of how you look at
(18:04):
value creation through, especially since these
businesses are earlier stage? Are there, is it more on a
custom basis you're looking at acompany by company and trying to
figure out what works or do you have a defined playbook that
you're bringing to these companies And how much does that
affect also the companies that you invest in on the front end
where you based on where you know you can actually help them?
(18:26):
We do not look at companies to invest in where we have to
change the fundamental operational effectiveness of the
company. What we're doing is scaling the
business and making sure that the wheels don't fall off as you
(18:50):
grow. And so it's about protecting
yourself. Once you have a greater
distance, greater scale, multiple locations, how do you
have accountability? So you're taking that founder
ingenuity, that knowledge about the patients, the knowledge
(19:11):
about the payers, the knowledge about the treatments and then
expanding that beyond that initial individual.
So it is all about diversification, diversification
by location, diversification by provider concentration.
(19:32):
So if we're taking over a company that has significant
provider concentration based on that original founder and five
years later we have half a dozenproviders, we've lowered the
risk for the next buyer significantly.
Likewise, if we're starting out only proving the concept in one
(19:58):
location and now we have it in three cities.
We've diversified from a location standpoint and that's
highly attractive to the next buyer.
So rather than looking at it as something where each element of
the business needs to be changed, it's more about how do
(20:19):
you scale and replicate? How do you take that founder
knowledge and expertise and ingenuity and replicated, Yeah,
are you? Having some of these
conversations with the founder during the LOI to close phase
and saying like here's kind of how we see this or areas of risk
(20:41):
that we need to address post close.
Yeah. I mean, there, there there is a
five year plan, there there is 100 day plan, there's a, you
know, clear agreement upon what level of growth is achievable
and has a reasonable risk profile associated with it.
(21:06):
Hmm. And have deals fallen apart if
you can get alignment on that, because I'm assuming founders
always have their own ideas of how they want to grow the
business or what the focus area should be like.
How are you finding alignment atthat phase to ensure that the
transaction also happens? While the places where deals can
(21:26):
fall apart are Include the following.
If you're changing states, for example, you're currently in
Georgia and you want to go to Virginia and you want to go.
Each state is a different marketin healthcare and honestly every
(21:47):
city is different. The reason why each state is
different is because healthcare insurance is a state by state
adjudication in the United States and even if it has the
same parent company, the reimbursement rules, the rules
on how that specific procedure is reimbursed and the
(22:10):
documentation requirements, etcetera may differ considerably
by state. So if if you find that the going
from state to state causes you to in your due diligence process
causes you heartburn, then you might say, well, maybe this
didn't have the scale that we wethought it would have.
(22:31):
Second of all, you have to be able to recruit providers in
these other locations. And typically we wanna test that
out by seeing if we can find people who are interested in the
jobs even if we're not hiring them until closing.
Yeah, yeah, that. I mean that makes that makes a
lot of sense. What about prioritization like
(22:53):
at the scale of these companies,you know we look at larger
companies, they have a lot more in terms of resources.
So they can do cross sell and upsell as a value creation lever
and they can do pricing and theycan do sales efficiency and
overall go to market or scaling their marketing efforts, they
can kind of do it and then they can layer in M&A and all of
that. But these these smaller EBITDA
(23:14):
levels, you there are trade-offs, there are real
trade-offs and limited resourcesthere.
How are you approaching that? Like what's your process to
figure out like what you're actually going to focus on or
where the where the highest leverage area is for the
business? Well, shit, I always tell my
CEO's that the most important piece of technology that they
(23:38):
have to focus on is the clock. As you point out, there's only
so many hours in the day. And if they're at it 12 hours a
day and they could be pulled 1000 different directions
because, you know, oftentimes virtually every employee reports
directly to them. So one of the things you got to
(24:00):
do is stop that. You got to give the CEO time to
be able to think on different dimensions.
So the analogy I use is when youthink about the clock, think
about how much of your time is spent with the microscope, which
is what they typically are using95% of the time.
(24:22):
How much of the time are you using a binocular and how much
of your time are you using a telescope?
And think of, think of the, the microscope as focusing on
day-to-day activities and what has to be done that day, by
whom, who, what employees showedup or didn't show up, what
(24:44):
patient has an issue, etcetera. The, the, the mid, mid term is,
you know, what do we have to do in order to accomplish the next
quarters worth of, of growth And, and the telescope is what
are we trying to be when we growup?
What kind of business be trying to grow and if the CEO isn't
able to spend a significant portion of their time in all
(25:08):
three areas, they're going to just continue to be in the
position where they're doing theday-to-day, day-to-day 99% of
the time. And that's where they were when
we met them and we got to stop that.
And typically that means one of two things you either have to
hire somebody else or you have to delegate better.
(25:30):
And delegating, as you know, forfounders is is hard and they
have to, you know, exercise thatmuscle.
Right. Yeah, I think, I think that's a
huge element inside companies because distraction is the
enemy, right. So especially when you have
limited resources, how can you really focus on the things that
(25:50):
really move the needle? And I guess the connected
question to this would be, how are you looking at this these
focus areas and priorities and how does that connect with your
exit strategy and positioning the business for the next buyer?
Yeah. So, you know, if we invest in
(26:10):
good markets that continue to begrowth markets for the next 5
years, we have every chance to be successful.
And if we don't, we won't be. So I've been doing health care
services deals for 35 years as aventure capitalist and a private
equity guy. So I have a very good sense of
(26:31):
areas that we want to be involved with.
And there's so much happening today that is revolutionizing
healthcare. And example of course would be
the GOP drugs that have just come out that are
revolutionizing metabolic healthcare, weight control and
even anti aging. And so you you look at these
(26:55):
long term health trends, obesityand diabetes have been a problem
in this country for 25 years andwill be a problem going forward.
So you ask yourself what is happening today that could
(27:16):
improve the lives of these people?
And so an example would be I'm on a board of a company in
Dallas, TX called the New Promise Neuropathy that is one
of the leading providers in the Dallas Fort Worth area and
expanding elsewhere in Texas to helping people deal with that
(27:40):
peripheral pain typically in thefeet from lack of circulation,
typically from diabetes. And so this company has a proven
protocol that includes Electro stimulation and multiple visits
(28:01):
that receives Medicare reimbursement.
And so by bringing these Medicare patients in for a
series of visits, we can start to increase their mobility,
which means they are now moving more, which improves their
overall health. It is a downward spiral when
(28:24):
you're suffering from chronic pain and that impacts your
mobility due to an underlying metabolic disease.
And so because I've been investing in and around this
space for many years, I know that to be a particular pain
point, no pun intended. And and so we know that that's a
(28:48):
good area to be involved with. So if we execute well, we
continue to have the highest standards of medical care.
Then the question, and this getsback to your earlier question
about the game book. Almost always we're going to
look for how can we diversify the services.
So the asset that we have in anyof these companies is access to
(29:11):
patients and locations. If we can utilize that real
estate and that medical professional capability for
greater range of services, then we have a chance to really
ignite the rocket ship. So now you're not just providing
(29:32):
a pain for neuropathy, neuropathy, but you're also
providing some other allies. What other similar problems do
these same patients have that wecan treat?
How much of? This work are you thinking about
as you're making the investment and saying, OK, this is the kind
(29:53):
of process that we need to take this company through.
And also by the way, if we buildthis and we build certain
assets, it will help us when we need to exit this investment.
Because there's a certain type of buyer that will appreciate
certain assets inside this business that if we scale up,
show them a lot more potential or expand our margins or show a
(30:17):
higher multiple on EBITDA. Yeah.
I mean the investment bankers will tell us look at if you want
to attract a, you know, larger fish private equity firm to buy
your company and you want to sell at high single digit EBITDA
multiples, you need to show one that you've have a bent a bench
(30:39):
in the management team. That's the table stake #2 you
need to show diversification, diversification by location,
diversification by reimbursementcode for what you're getting
reimbursed for by payer so that you have multiple insurance
(31:00):
companies that are also reimbursing you reimbursement.
But in terms of the number of providers, if you can do those
four things, then they're takingon less risk than you took on
and they're going to pay you higher multiple.
Hmm, Yeah, I. Guess, I guess you kind of have
(31:20):
to consciously build towards that.
And I don't know if all foundersare really thinking about their
exit story, if you will, right? Because you kind of have to
figure out like what would a future buyer care about and what
are the types of potential buyers that will actually
acquire this business and which assets do we have it will that
(31:40):
they'll actually value. So I guess you're doing a lot of
that work with the founder? Yeah.
I mean, each founder is different.
They they all have a different sort of set of skills.
I would say that the, the, the most important thing in these
deals is that we have a clean, pristine track record in terms
(32:11):
of patient satisfaction. Um, no problems with any
regulatory authorities, a clean track record with the insurance
reimbursement, Our documentationis sound.
If those fundamentals are good, then you have an opportunity to
(32:32):
scale the business. If there's a problem in any one
of those areas, then we wouldn'twant to be involved in the
business. So then the question is, is this
a founder who is, you know, justthinking about how he gets some
liquidity initially, or is he somebody who also is thinking
about the next five years? And, and some, some are and some
(32:55):
aren't and some can be educated on it and some aren't.
I mean, I've lived with investment bankers selling my
businesses for 35 years. They haven't.
So the question is, are they open to the input right?
Yeah. And then if they are, and then
then you can kind of partner together and start to build a
(33:17):
lot of these core pieces together.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. I think, I think that's a,
that's a great take away. And as we're kind of coming up
on time here, I wish we had moretime to dig deeper.
But just as investors are thinking about it, even if
they're investing a larger companies or or especially
(33:38):
smaller companies, what advice would you have overall for them
in terms of how they're looking at these businesses, whether
it's in the form of the IR that they can generate or in terms of
how they operationally look to create enterprise value with
these companies? Well, I think you want to be in
the early innings of these developing medical trends.
(34:00):
So I'll give you an example. You know, we invested in a
company called Atlanta Fibroid Centre, which is the single
largest single location interventional radiology centre
in Atlanta, GA for the treatmentof uterine fibrosis.
(34:21):
And so you have a patient population, largely African
American women that are suffering from a a real malady
that is now treatable in a way that wasn't treatable 20 years
ago, but still only a small percentage of women that would
qualify for interventional radiology, which by the way, is
(34:42):
an outpatient procedure, unlike A hysterectomy, which is a
hospitalization event. So you have the chance to retain
fertilization, you have the chance to have an outpatient
event, which is much less costlyand much better for the woman.
And yet only a small percentage of women who qualify for this
(35:04):
procedure are getting it. So we know we're in the early
innings. We know that it works.
We know that it's better for thepatient.
The question is, can we take this beautifully run centre in
Atlanta, GA and expand it to other locations?
We're not the only private equity firm doing this, but we
(35:25):
have a beautiful model to to to replicate.
So the fundamental question is, are you helping patients?
Are you in the early innings of a change?
Is this something that is neededthat saves the system money?
That is a win, win, win, win forthe patient's, win for the
(35:46):
payers and still provides a goodmargin for us, yeah.
I think I think that's a really important take away is just
really understanding the market and the customers and whether
that will continue to hold true.And if it is serving all of
these different parties, then the investment thesis in and of
itself will be will be realized.So I think I think that's a
(36:07):
that's a really great, really great take away.
Before we close off, Craig, whatare some ways that people can
get in touch with you or learn more about TP Boulder?
Yes. So obviously we have a website
at www.tpboulder.com and myself,Craig Jones or or Lydia Jones,
(36:31):
the 22 professionals here, they can contact either of us.
Excellent. Yeah, we'll.
Be sure to include that in the show notes and all the links as
well. And with that said, Craig,
thanks for coming and sharing your wisdom.
I thought it was super interesting, especially given
the sizes of business that you're investing in.
I think a lot of investors that are looking at companies at
different stages can learn a lotfrom it.
So appreciate you doing this. That's my.
(36:52):
Pleasure. Thanks a lot, Jeff.
Thanks for listening today's episode.
Before you take off, just a few requests from our side.
Number one, if you haven't done so already, please subscribe to
the podcast on iTunes or Spotifyor YouTube or wherever you go to
listen to your podcast #2 if youare in the market for due
diligence services, strategy consulting, or fractional CMO
(37:15):
services, please get in touch with us at www.hassas.com.
And 3rd, please buy a copy of mynew book, Exit Ready Marketing.
It covers a ton of concepts thatwe take our customers through
private equity investors to be company CEOs.
Operating partners and. Marketers and there's a ton of
great value in there that expands on my previous book post
(37:37):
acquisition Marketing as well. So with that said, I hope you
enjoyed today's content and we'll see you on the next
episode.
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