June 25, 2025 • 60 mins
Kimberly Worsham, founder of FLUSH, joins us on the pod to discuss her work bringing marketing strategies, storytelling, and a love for toilets together.
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Check out Kimberly's work and FLUSH at https://www.itsflush.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Yeah, well, and same to you, you know?
there need, I think the, it's such a shame that we've let the stigma of like toilets andbathrooms become something where like it's just an untouchable topic when we do it every
day.
I mean, it's such an essential part of life.
And the fact that we've made it this taboo thing, there's reason for it a bit, but I thinkwe've almost gone too far.
(00:28):
Welcome back to Privy.
Privy is a podcast about bathrooms recorded from my home bathroom.
I'm your host, Hunter Hoover, and I love bathrooms.
um I'm in uh home bathroom, but I'm joined virtually via the power of the internet uh byFlush's one and only Kim Wersham.
(00:50):
Did I get your last name correct, Kim?
Perfect.
Welcome.
Thank you so much for being here.
How are you today?
I'm all right, how are you doing?
Thanks for inviting me.
Absolutely.
I'm doing well.
It's actually like my first real day.
I'm a school teacher by day.
So today is like my actual real first day of summer.
(01:12):
we were running around with the kids and getting that library stuff set up.
yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm just going to give you and also the listener kind of a brief, how did we get here?
Via social media, something that happens is the algorithm or the powers that be recommendme just countless bathroom related pages and profiles and accounts.
(01:43):
And I follow a handful of those, especially the ones that seem to have a lot to say and alot to provide and a lot of cool information just to keep track of what's going on out
there in the bathroom world.
And Flush was one of the early
uh bathroom related Instagram accounts that I had found and it's super cool to see.
(02:04):
I actually I was just earlier today I was on and I saw it might have been from some timeago but it was a video about the prisons in Alcatraz and I was reading through that.
Super fascinating stuff.
So that's kind of how we got to this point and then just reached out and said hey I liketo talk about bathrooms and
(02:25):
what y'all have going on at Flush seems uh very interested in them as well.
I will say I did a little digging around and I wanted to on Flush's website, it cites youas being kind of like having this childhood passion for bathrooms.
Can you share with us a little bit about what that was and what that looks like?
(02:46):
Sure, yeah.
So I have numerous gastrointestinal disorders.
So I've always been someone that's needed a bathroom, even since when I was a little girl.
And um I was always looking for a bathroom.
I was always not feeling safe if there was no bathroom.
And it became a family joke when I was younger, because whenever we would go to arestaurant in the 90s, I wouldn't let them sit down until I looked at the toilet first,
(03:12):
because I knew I was going to end up there.
Right, right.
I started joking around that I was like this toilet inspector, because I have a personalcode, because I wanted to make sure the toilet was good for me so that when I could go to
the bathroom, it would be fine.
yeah, and I totally forgot about that.
Like as I got older, I was like, you know, single digits child, eight, seven.
(03:34):
And then when I was trying to figure out my career stuff, you know, I liked a lot ofdifferent things.
And then I kind of rediscovered water and sanitation when I was doing work overseas.
And I called my mom at the time and I was like, Oh my God, I think I really want to workin toilets.
And she's like, yeah, that makes sense.
I didn't know what she was talking about.
She's like, don't you remember the inspections of all the toilets at the restaurants?
(03:57):
I was like, I remember it now, but like I, yeah, like I didn't put two and two together.
Yeah.
It's the thing.
It stood out more to them than it probably stuck with you.
That's interesting.
That's funny.
It probably wasn't funny in the moment, but um I know less gastrointestinal, but I thinkit's just anxiety of buildings and crowds.
(04:22):
Tracking down where the bathroom's at is definitely uh a component.
It is.
What took you overseas for the work that you were doing?
um I was pretty young in my career and I wanted to work overseas and I always wanted towork internationally.
And I ended up on a project in one of my grad programs where I went to India and uh neededa bathroom.
(04:44):
And it was a water-related program and I was doing some water work and needed a bathroomin the middle of nowhere in the rural areas.
Couldn't find one or find one that was allowed to use.
And I was like, you know what?
I can't be the only person that needs a bathroom all the time.
And it kind of opened light for me where I was like, my god, some people in the worlddon't have this.
(05:08):
And found out just how many people, mean, millions of people don't have access to toilets,even billions sometimes we could say.
So for me, that was like the big light turned on and.
You know, I started my career thinking I was going to be in entertainment and did that forlike a minute and got out and hated it.
And then I went into toilets and my parents were just like, what?
(05:30):
You like you went to business school, you went on to this international stuff and now youwant to work on toilets.
I was like, yeah, it's amazing.
That's awesome.
Wow.
I've been fortunate enough to not travel anywhere that I couldn't find one eventually, butI think the closest thing was we uh did some building project stuff in Mexico a few years
(05:58):
back and uh there was moments where it was like, is a hole, there's a seat and it's like,my goodness, this is wild.
uh
And in some of, I know there was a couple of places in Israel where you didn't flush thepaper, which was another big cultural separation because it just feels so wrong to not.
(06:23):
But yeah, it is a good reminder.
It's something that I think we definitely take for granted.
ah That's actually what sort of started this show.
It was actually around Thanksgiving and I was going through and I'm like, man,
This is pretty great that we have this access.
There's a lot of definite thankfulness in the backburners uh of the show.
(06:49):
You said you studied business.
Is that what led to Flush as, is it an organization?
I want to make sure I talk about it the right way.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, that's kind of how I've tried to marry my, you know, business degree and myinternational work together.
(07:12):
Um, you know, I got a degree at a fantastic business school in the U S and really didn'tknow what to do with it at the time.
And, you know, went off to do international development stuff.
And one of the things I kept seeing when I was in international development was just how
how much they struggled with things that we learned in business school and were prettyeasy to me where I was like, wow, why are we having such a hard time with this?
(07:38):
Particularly around communications.
So I have a marketing degree and I see a lot in water and sanitation.
It's a hidden topic partly just because we have a lot of enthusiastic engineers who don'tknow how to talk about it.
think that when they talk about it, it must make sense to everyone and then get confusedwhen people don't adopt the thing that they're trying to put in.
(08:07):
every time I was just like, yeah, you didn't do the marketing.
And everyone's going, oh, marketing is bad.
And I'm like, it's not.
It's just a way.
It's like, I mean, I don't think of myself as like a corporate hound or anything.
I think.
There's just a lot of misconceptions about business principles in the internationaldevelopment and nonprofit world, to be honest.
(08:30):
So I wanted to start a company to really provide those services and be like, I know whatyou're doing.
I align with your values, but I have this skillset and this skills that's kind ofimportant.
And I promise it'll help you.
um, yeah, so I started my company in 2018 and slowly built it up and it's, doing prettywell.
(08:51):
And.
you know, we're doing marketing support for some organizations and some otherorganizations were doing more like technical assistance on like evaluating how their
programs are doing.
So like, it kind of depends on the client what we actually do.
But yeah, like the main the main reason I started it was just because I was like, wow, youguys really don't understand how to like, run stuff.
(09:12):
And especially in in international development, it became really popular to talk aboutbusiness principles.
But
when they were talking about it, was all very theoretical.
And then when they would apply it, was like, that's not how that works.
That's not, that's not.
And I actually remember like, I had a full blown argument with someone about marketing,about what it was.
(09:32):
And, and I was like, I don't, have a degree in it.
I think I know what it is.
Like, I think I, passed, like I got some good grades in it and they kept trying to belike, that's not what it is.
And I was like, I don't know why you're trying to tell the person with a marketing degree,what marketing is.
Well, what you're telling me is not right.
Because they thought marketing was just flyers and radio station jingles.
(09:54):
And I was like, that's not it.
Marketing is like a whole lot of data and asking people questions, trying to understandhow they use stuff, saying, hey, this product isn't going to work or this service isn't
going to work because of this reason people don't like it.
And basically, it's like the relationship manager of anything you're trying to puttogether.
(10:17):
You know, when people started saying like, it's just communications.
like, it's really big.
Like, I mean, I had to take a lot of statistics classes and I had to learn a lot aboutlike how to engage with human beings.
And so started Flush to say, Hey, if you want this service, this is what we can do.
And we use our blog and we use our website and our social media as like proof of conceptof, Hey, people engage with us.
(10:41):
People think our stuff is really interesting and they reach out to us and we don't evenknow them like.
Here we are.
m
it gets found and people like it and and people are seeing that and they're resonatingwith it.
Oh, wow.
Like you do get people interested in your work and you don't have a big budget.
Like, no, you don't have to have a big budget, but you have to be smart about how you talkto people.
(11:02):
So, yeah, that's that's how flush started.
That's super cool.
uh I do have a question related to Flush and it's more of a personal curiosity.
Have you in this marketing world, especially with a name like Flush, I love it, but haveyou found people that are standoffish around the whole bathroom related concept or are
(11:23):
people pretty open to it?
Because I know just to share with this, there's folks that are like, wait now.
uh
whole thing about it and I was like yeah yeah you know bathrooms are everywhere.
Well, I think um it's kind of how I approach it with different people.
So like, I'm not going to go balls to the wall, talk about, you know, poo in bathroomswith someone who's like in private investment, right?
(11:48):
Like I'm going to start and kind of bring them in with like, hey, I work in like a climateor environmental related pro like thing, and we focus on sanitation and this is why.
So we try to kind of get them interested.
uh mean,
I think the challenge sometimes with my company name is they think I might be like acasino because like the card gains like a real flush.
(12:13):
So I get that sometimes or sometimes people get the name wrong or they're like, it'sflush.
I'm like, that's the name of the URL, but that's not the name of the company.
So I haven't had people get turned off by the name, but honestly, I find more people whenI tell them that I'm like a toilet expert.
(12:33):
I did a joke about this, I don't know, eight years ago.
I feel like a confessor.
I become this person where everything that's deep dark in their soul comes out abouttoilets.
I've always wanted to talk about this or ask this question to somebody.
And I get some really weird people tell me, because they're like, finally, somebody hasthis expertise and I can ask.
(12:56):
Or, oh, I had this experience and I need to share it.
And I'm always just like, OK.
and I'm happy to receive that information.
It's always, sometimes, and I think my face is like, I've been told I have a resting niceface.
So people just wanna share information to me.
yeah, so I've gotten some questions where I'm kind of like, okay, I'm not a sex edprofessional.
(13:18):
So I think that's actually a sexual education question or I actually don't know that muchabout animals.
And I feel like that might be someone else, like maybe a vet can answer that question.
I get some really weird questions when I'm the toilets.
If anything, I feel like people latch on really fast.
They're like, yes, really quick.
(13:38):
Well, good.
That's right at home here because when we started doing guested episodes, it began aspeople emailing me, like you said, these confessions essentially of bathroom confessions
and it's going, hey, do you want to talk to the internet about it and put it out therepublicly for everybody to hear?
(14:00):
About 50-50 on the people that are willing to do so.
um
What's the strangest question you've ever been asked about, whether bathroom-related orotherwise?
Um, yeah, I mean, and I really don't remember who this person was.
So I don't know if they'll ever listen to this, but they asked me about like the publichealth safety issues with like anal ingus.
(14:26):
And I was just like, you know what?
That's really not my specialty.
I like, I don't, I don't suggest you do that.
think there's cleaning protocols.
I don't know.
Like, I really, don't know how to answer your question.
And
You know, and the way they kind of looked at me like you can't finally answer this for me.
was like, I really don't know.
You know, I can tell you that there's, you know, bacteria down there that you will want tosanitize.
(14:53):
You might get, you know, food poisoning from it, but like, I don't know what else to tellyou.
Like, this is really out of my wheelhouse.
So I've gotten, that was my weirdest question, I would say.
But sometimes the weirdest questions, like the weird questions I get, I actually make mekind of go like, huh.
That's a question that like is really interesting and it makes me actually rethink how wearticulate stuff about sanitation toilets.
(15:17):
Like I had one, I was doing a class in Connecticut a while back and someone was asking melike, why do my wives fart smell and not mine?
And people were laughing at him because that's a weird question.
was like, no, actually that's a really interesting question because it's like anevolutionary question.
Like why evolutionarily speaking?
Why do yours not smell and hers do?
(15:38):
And I came up with a general idea of an answer, but I was like, you know, that's reallyinteresting that you want to know that because it's like how you engage with that stuff.
Whereas like in my sector, if I ask my colleagues that, they'll be like, why would weanswer that?
like, because some people want to understand how it relates to them.
So to me, sometimes it's, you know, I think people in my sector would be like, that's aweird question.
(16:02):
And I'm like, wait, wait, hold on, hold on.
Wait, there's a point in like, yeah, like let's try to unpack that.
Like, what is that about?
And like, why does it bother them?
And also what can we say?
So sometimes I think if someone was with me whenever I'm like engaging in public stuff,would just collect these questions.
(16:23):
And often I'm just like, yeah, that was a cool question.
How do I answer that?
I don't know.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
I don't know why, but all I can imagine is that person, their wife sitting next to themjust like, stop it, trying to shut it down.
(16:46):
For me, when you open the door, whether it's through flush or other mediums to bathrooms,it's like you give permission to people.
to be like, well, this person's at least this much comfortable with the concept ofbathrooms.
(17:06):
If I'm going to ask anybody, I'm going to shoot my shot with them.
Hats off to you for being that for people because they need it.
Like you said.
You know, like we there need I think the it's such a shame that we've let the stigma oflike toilets and bathrooms become something where like it's just an untouchable topic when
we do it every day I mean, it's such an essential part of life and the fact that we'vemade it this taboo thing There's reason for it a bit, but I think we've almost gone too
(17:34):
far Yeah, and when I go to certain countries, it's a lot easier to talk about my work thanit is here in the US
And people are like, hold on, I've been asked if I'm doing a bit when I talk about my workwhere they're like, are you doing a bit on me?
And I'm like, why would I make this up?
This just feels too good to be true.
I'm really good at cocktail parties.
(17:55):
But if I go to work with my colleagues in Kenya or Ghana, to them, they're like, yeah,that's a legitimate problem we have.
Let's go fix it.
yeah, I see it.
And here there's a lot more giggles.
And I'm originally from New York City.
where people like weird stuff, but I live in San Francisco now.
And there have been a couple of times when I'm trying to talk about my work and people arelike, wait, what, really?
(18:20):
That's what?
What do you mean?
You focus on toilets?
I'm like, yeah, actually it's kind of important.
And they're just really kind of befuddled the whole time, just thinking that I'm makingfun of them, I guess.
I don't know, but I'm always like, I don't know, this is.
This is legitimate.
get paid to talk about toilets.
(18:41):
That's Yeah.
Yeah, it happens.
Yeah, that's wow.
I imagine even Kenyan and I'm sure that's one of many places in the world where you just,I don't know, when you said that, my first response around bathrooms is to kind of like
(19:02):
you said, chuckle a little bit.
But for a lot of people, it's like, no, no, this is a serious thing that if we can't getthis hammered out, ah life is harder.
uh or less safe in many, instances.
It's a good reminder.
I've got dysentery more than once because of my work.
(19:23):
Really?
Yeah.
mean, and it's funny.
I was talking with my Ugandan colleagues and she was like, I don't know any Ugandan who'shad dysentery.
like, I've got it.
I've had it twice in two different countries.
I feel like my passion is even higher.
I've had parasites and stuff because when I'm working in certain places, I'm going tothese places because they don't have good access, which means...
(19:45):
m
Whitey McWhite White over here is going to end up getting dysentery and and it's funny tome because I'm always just like Yeah, like going to the doctor being like I have
dysentery.
No, you don't like Do the tests like I promise you I do and then they're like you do I'mlike, I know I have dysentery uh But it's made me more passionate because I'm like, yeah,
(20:06):
like look I I am proof of concept proof of proof of the need because Wow, I go to certainplaces and I get sick
And, you know, or people, you know, joke about going to certain countries and gettingsick.
And it's like, well, if they had toilets, we wouldn't have this problem.
So here we are.
(20:27):
It's a solvable problem.
It's time and resources and people to care.
It's a gnarly problem too though, mean it's complicated.
Yeah.
Again, that's that stuff you take for granted.
I think even when they just build houses and stuff over here, they have the infrastructurein place.
(20:50):
um I've found there's a couple of articles that I've seen on Flush that was laying outthat infrastructure piece.
It was talking a little bit about how stuff integrates with a bigger sewage picture.
I find that stuff super helpful mostly because like I said, I work at a high school.
(21:12):
These kids have no idea how internet gets to their phone.
They think it's magic.
The same is true for when they hit the flush.
Not my problem now.
I've shown a handful of them stuff and trying to get them, especially there's handfulsthat are into trades and looking to go towards trades and I'm like, you.
(21:34):
You may want to take a look at this.
This will give you a bigger picture feel for what you're going to go into.
Plumbers make some good money too and we're running out.
There are a bunch of them hiring so we're having like a bit of gap.
uh
That's why I think it's necessary, like you said, if we don't turn that corner, we'll havea different problem too, another problem.
(21:58):
um I do want to know mostly because just to totally bear my ignorance, my interaction withthe idea of dysentery is like playing the Oregon Trail back in the day.
uh
What are the symptoms?
Or unless it's super overbearing, like what are the-
graphics do want me to get?
(22:19):
mean...
I mean...
I mean, it's bloody mucus stool and it's pretty constant diarrhea, like sick sometimes.
I mean, it looks like other things sometimes.
So the first time I got it, they thought I had dengue fever.
And so I was in the hospital and they came out with my stool sample and they're like, goodnews, it's not dengue, it's dysentery.
(22:45):
And I was like, I don't know if that's better, but I mean, it was in some sense.
So you get like really high fever.
tend to get really bad back aches when I get it and really like lethargic stomach achesand cramping.
And then you get, you know, bloody stool.
So it's not even stool, it's bloody diarrhea.
So you do that.
(23:07):
And what is treatment, I mean modern day, what do they do for that?
So the dysentery I've had is from amoebas, and so I get an antiprotozoal.
So it's like an antiparasitic, but um I have to eat really bland foods and just be near atoilet for a week, essentially.
(23:28):
And the last time I wasn't near a toilet at one point, and I was in a very dark place fora minute.
But yeah, mean, you have to get rid of the amoebas and eat.
just like rice and that's kinda it.
Yeah, yeah.
(23:48):
That's crazy.
uh What a story.
I will say this, you are the first person I've ever met- Who's had in person or otherwisethat's had dysentery.
Yes, I've met one person who had scurvy of all things.
(24:10):
Yes, you're the first dysentery.
It's, it's occupational hazard.
are some cases of the, there are some countries where I've worked where it's almost like abadge of like proof.
Like I work in this sector.
I've had dysentery.
So I was living in Cambodia and everyone got dysentery and like, was just a wave ofdysentery that went through.
So we all got dysentery and my roommate at the time had dysentery before me.
(24:33):
So she was like, yeah, yeah, that's here's like, here's the, the stuff that I took, likegood luck with it.
So.
Yeah, it's just a it's kind of one of those things that just happens in some places
Yeah, that is a sad and unfortunate truth.
I don't know.
I think that would be an emotionally challenging thing as well.
(24:57):
At least for me, I don't know if I'd be like, this might be it, but.
You do feel like dying, but once the medicine kicks in, you start feeling better.
If they give you good medicine, and in some countries where they don't have the FDA, theygive you really good medicines.
You feel really good afterwards.
(25:19):
There's a couple of things.
When I'm traveling for work, there are certain meds, I'll go to the pharmacist and I'll belike, give me a pack of that because I'm bringing it home.
or when I my next food poisoning instance, because it's just really good.
And um yeah, so it's not like you want to die forever.
It's like you want to die for like a day or two.
(25:41):
It's like having a terrible flu.
And then you get over it and you survive it.
then, you know, the only challenge for me is because I've had so many parasites anddysentery in a short period of time, I actually can't eat.
meat anymore.
So I'm a pescatarian because my body doesn't digest meat anymore.
(26:02):
that's the that's the bummer.
But I mean, I bacon sometimes, but it's fine.
Yes.
Wow, that's crazy.
Hats off to you for both going through that and also going out there and doing that work.
Yes, that's an incredible thing.
(26:24):
I have a handful of questions that I ask everyone.
Then at the end, I want to make sure that we come back around and sandwich it with a shortconversation related to Flush.
And so I'm just going to kind of float these out there.
And if you want to expand on them as much or as little as you want.
(26:44):
um like I said, these are super uh related to what you're doing.
are like, we're back in kindergarten level questions.
So ah I'm not going to be asking you anything too terribly wild.
uh The first is, what is your preferred type of toilet paper?
Like brand, ply, all of those things.
(27:05):
What do you prefer?
I like bamboo and I get who gives a crap.
uh Like their bulk purchases.
I get a bulk box of them and they last me pretty well.
I like that they're durable and that they're nice and thick, but I also like the fact thatit's not trees.
Yeah, yeah, that's actually, I did like a whole, raided a whole bunch of toilet paper andI have like, it's called Honeycomb Bamboo toilet paper.
(27:33):
But that's what we actually have right now.
Nice.
that's, yeah, very cool.
And you said it's Who Gives a Crap that you, the one that you like?
Yeah.
Okay, I'm gonna have to check it out, because there's a handful of brands out there thathave popped up, I think, in the, not too distant past, but.
Yeah.
(27:53):
And then on your toilet paper, are you a fold it over or fold it under?
Over.
Okay.
um Is that like, are you set on that or are you?
yeah.
Okay.
Because every time I do it under, breaks whenever I try to pull it out.
So over is always easier for me.
Got it.
If you ever, like if you go to someone's house or if you go somewhere and it's under, willyou flip it?
(28:15):
No.
Yeah.
Perfect.
I'm just like, oh you're an under.
Okay.
Well, that's that's funny my uh My wife is is in the same camp as you she is like, nope Itmust go over and if and if you put it on the other way I'm flipping it around and then I'm
(28:37):
you know that you did it wrong
So in the toilet paper patent, it's supposed to be over.
So I mean, we're
We're correct.
People bring this up to me all the time and I'm convinced that it's not a conspiracybecause I don't want to go into that, but I'm convinced that the guy did that on purpose
because I think it actually uses more paper to go over unless you're being mindful.
(29:02):
I think if anybody's being mindful of their paper, you're going to solve that problem, butespecially little kids when they just grab and rip.
I think the over, I don't know, I'm working on a test for that, but I haven't been ableto.
uh I have two kids and isolating them on that test is like, wait, wait, wait, how many didyou use?
(29:25):
Like half of it's gone.
You got to chill out and then there's no way to measure anyway.
uh
You should like number every single piece of toilet paper and just see how many they gofor.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
I wonder if you could buy it.
There has to be like pre-numbered paper.
(29:46):
Oh, man.
Now I know what I know.
looking up later.
Do you do you prefer bar soap or liquid soaps?
Bar.
Bar.
Okay.
I like the feeling of control I have with the bar and I like the fact that like I justfeel like I can rub it better.
(30:07):
Like I don't like loofahs.
Loofahs are kind of gross to me and I have to use liquid soap sometimes when I'm travelingjust because that's like what's available.
And I always like the exfoliating feature of the bar soap.
So I just can't get behind the liquid.
My partner likes liquid but
Yeah, no, I'm like, he knows that I like bars like in my my Christmas stocking.
(30:30):
I always get like bars of stuff because I like soap.
Do you have a preferred brand or like a?
No, well, if I'm going to have to go for like a brand brand, it's going to be Dove becauseI have sensitive skin.
I tend to really like to go to markets where they have like goats milk soap because Ireally like how it works.
(30:50):
It's good.
And so the two best soaps I've ever used, one was donkey soap, donkey milk soap, which islike something that's really popular in France.
And so I got some and I was like, hold on.
Like I was getting this because it was funny and now I'm like really into it because if itwas nice and then charcoal soap, which is called soap in Ghana and that's really nice too.
(31:14):
So anything that's like milk or like just basically anything that someone's like making intheir house in like a sketchy way, I probably
man, it's the unsanctioned soap and dietary medications.
(31:34):
Yeah, that's it.
Yes, that's the way to go.
totally.
And then so related to that, not exactly, how do you feel about baths?
And to share where it's coming from, there's like two camps.
There's the folks that are like grossed out by baths and then there's the folks that likeit's...
it's peak experience for them.
do you, where do you fall on that continuum?
(31:56):
So I grew up not having baths.
we always did showers because my mom was told in the 80s that they weren't safe for kids.
So we didn't have baths really.
um Now I think it's weird that would stew.
I would become Kim Soup.
(32:17):
I don't like that idea.
oh But I know people I've tried to enjoy it in the past.
And I know some people do enjoy it and I just think I'm not it's not it's not it's not myjam So I really like the shower feeling and like historically speaking baths are really
like where it was at for a long time because it was like a full Spa experience and likethe shower only came in like what?
(32:43):
150 years ago or something Very recent but I just like I'm like, know what whoever decidedto like put a
bowl above their head and make a splash down on them was brilliant.
Love
yes.
ah Okay, yeah, I'm on the same page.
ah Do you have any bathroom pet peeves?
(33:06):
Like things that just drive you bonkers in the bathroom?
As in that I do or that other people do in my bathroom or in their bathroom.
any of it.
If you really want to dig down deep and find the things that you do that drive peoplenuts.
I mean, I think having, I have to think about this.
(33:31):
It's like not trying to say what drives me nuts my partner does basically is what I'mtrying to like, what else?
What's like not a partner thing?
I think of my bathroom as like my sanctuary.
like, there's just certain things about cleanliness that I like about my bathroom that I'dlike to keep.
(33:51):
um One of the things is I don't like it when people close the bathroom door after theyshowered.
Okay, just traps the...
Yeah, traps all the glue and stuff, or like they don't put the fan on or anything.
Like I've worked, lived with some roommates who were like, you have to close the door.
(34:12):
And I was like, do you not understand?
There's no window.
There's no way for us to get ventilation in here.
And that's like a really big peeve of mine.
Cause I don't like, I don't like the smell of mildew and I don't like the feeling ofeverything being kind of just like always a little bit soggy.
Yeah.
Realize, my biggest pet peeve.
Yeah, hey, is totally valid.
(34:34):
Yeah, I don't think of that one.
And I also don't think that, I mean, yeah, I don't think I've heard that one from people,uh but it's a good one, or even just the air, like when you go in, especially if it's not
been long since the shower has been off, you just get hit with the wave of like uh hot,warm, wet air, and it's like, ooh.
(34:57):
And there might be something to like one of my apartments in New York when I was livingthere for I lived there for a long time.
And one of my apartments, the bathroom ceiling fell on me and it might be something to dowith that because like, yeah, there was they were like close the door because there's
asbestos like in your in your bathroom now.
(35:20):
And I was like, cool.
Oh, my goodness, we're gonna ventilate.
that's yeah.
That's wild.
eh
Yeah, they didn't get rent that much.
uh Hey, that's Wow.
um So I'm going to be honest with you.
I have a series of what I've been told are like weird shower questions.
(35:46):
So I'm just going to go, I'm just going to dive right into them.
And if you're like, you know what, hard pass.
um But the first is, do you or have you ever taken a dark shower?
Just lights off, full shower experience with the lights off.
No.
Sometimes the power goes off when I'm overseas.
Okay, yeah.
(36:06):
so yes.
m
Okay, so I had a buddy in college that he did this and it was one of those things where itspread like wildfire and now it's like my preferred path forward.
I liken it to the sensory deprivation chambers, especially if you're a morning showerperson.
(36:27):
It's like this is the best way to ease myself into this day.
um So yeah, just the weird things that people do.
It's more strategic.
Like it is a six minute shower and I am like, I, it's clockable.
Like people at six minutes and I'm like taking the extra hair off of my head and stuff.
(36:49):
That's like falling out and whatever.
Cause I'm a female and I have a lot of hair and um, you know, like it's a very like, andnow is the time that we're doing the face and like, there's, just like the order.
It's my ritual.
It's like my operations and
If I don't have light, think that would hinder some of the things that I have to do in theshower.
Absolutely.
I think you have actually inadvertently answered a handful of these questions.
(37:13):
However, I'm going to soldier forth.
um Do you do any snacks either in the shower or you're like, noop, drinks, shower drink?
No, really?
Okay.
to do?
Why do need to blend things I enjoy?
This is a pure experience for me.
(37:33):
It's a shower.
Yeah, I, you know, it's, um...
There's a variety of things that are great in the shower.
There's a variety.
I've heard a lot of things that are a bridge too far.
I had a guy that was like, yes, a bag of chips.
I said, no, no, no.
(37:55):
That's madness.
Yeah, I know there's no food.
It is a non food place.
Like the bathroom is not a food place for me.
It's where things are evacuated, not for things to come in.
No, it's because I have like GI disorders.
(38:16):
maybe there's like, my bathroom experience is always a bit precarious because it's howmuch pain am I going to be in while I'm It's a safe zone.
Like the sterility of it needs to be there partly so that I feel
Yeah, that's fair.
And like, you know, like I have a thing where like, it's an IBS thing where like,sometimes I don't know if I'm gonna pass out puke or shit myself.
(38:45):
And when I'm on the bathroom, it's like, I don't know which one it is.
So I need everything to be like as food free as possible.
Cause it's like, I don't know what's gonna happen.
You don't want to add another calculation to that situation.
That's totally fair.
Totally fair.
Yes.
I guess I would recommend a shower drink if you ever are like, you know what, think I'mgoing to.
(39:12):
I'm down on me.
I can just open my mouth up and have some water from the shower.
I know a guy that said he makes ramen, like with the hot water and like I've had somedeviance on the show.
That's what I'm learning.
uh
I'm wondering how many of them have like, you know, some form of like bacterial growth intheir stomach and they have no idea.
(39:34):
Oh, I'm confident both based on our conversation right this moment and my co-workers'responses to just the things that I've said I've eaten.
I'm confident I've got something going on, but you don't know what's
It can be a prophylactic.
(39:57):
I've taken the wormy in pills as prophylaxis.
So you can go enjoy those.
my gosh, that's wild.
No orange in the shower as if it's an apple.
This is like uh a juice.
Okay, perfect.
Then the last shower question and we ask everybody on the show this question.
(40:20):
The first is, do you know what a waffle stomp is?
I don't know if I wanna know, but yeah, I don't know.
uh So in short, it's when a person poops into the bottom of the shower and then to justget it, they stomp it down.
know.
You're like running.
I'm fine.
(40:41):
Public health-wise, not fine.
Yeah, yeah.
Also, I have IBS, so like it, can't guarantee it's solid enough to do a stomp.
So um the times that I've heard and know of people having done this, it's actually becauseof moments like that, whether it's because of something they ate or known IBS where it's
(41:06):
like, I'm not going to make it out.
So we're just going and letting fly.
so I'm going to venture to say that you've never.
out of the bathroom if I have that urgent need because to me, like for a lot of reasons,one of them is like my sphincter doesn't work that way.
Our new little dog Izzy thinks that she has to police him so they just yell at me.
(41:28):
It's a great thing.
so like I don't think I want to ever do a waffle stomp.
Especially just because like my sphincter doesn't work that way and also it's like I...
I like the idea of the division of places in my house for activities.
So it's like, you know, like I don't nap on my bed because then my body thinks it'ssleeping for sleep, not napping.
(41:54):
So like I'll nap on the couch, right?
Like unless I'm sick and I know it's going to be like a three hour nap, like then I willsleep on my bed.
But otherwise like this is a fine place to nap.
And it's same like the kitchen is like where the food is and it's where it stays.
And it doesn't go in the bath
go there.
It doesn't actually like we don't need in the living room much either.
(42:14):
we, it's in the kitchen and like the bathroom is where like Kim takes care of her IBS.
And it's also the place where she cleans herself to like feel better after a bad bout ofit.
And the separation and the, know, like this is the place where I eliminate.
This is the place where I feel better.
(42:34):
And I don't want to have those like sensations crossed because I feel like psychologicallyI'll start associating.
Oh, yeah.
Well, and yeah, I will say you're onto something psychologically uh because once a person,what I found is if somebody's done it once, most of the times when I ask, they've done it
(42:55):
twice.
ah It's like they've given themselves permission ah and yes.
They say the same thing about murderers, you know, so like, I'm just putting that outthere.
There's a research project like how many known confirmed murderers have a correlation towaffle stomping or other deviant bathroom activity.
(43:23):
At which point they're just going to start tracking people that I've talked to at somepoint on this show in the past.
And I will be clear because she doesn't waffle sound so it's fine.
I will say less people have done it than have not.
So you are actually in the majority.
I don't know if that helps you navigate the world knowing that most people I've talked toare like, no, this is crazy.
(43:48):
I've weird things in the shower, and I've heard weird experiences that people do.
I feel better knowing that I'm not the only one who has a limit, but I'm sad for thepeople who have let that happen.
Who've accepted that as like, yeah, like it's like, you know, it's like how many shout,how many days do you go before a shower kind of question?
(44:13):
It's like after like your day, like to what end?
Yeah, I had a buddy tell me one time, gosh, that he said after day five you haveregulated, like your, I don't know, body ecosystem, whatever, has hit stasis and he says
(44:35):
you're gonna smell exactly how you're gonna smell.
I don't know if that's true.
He was not the cleanest guy, but you know.
the feeling of just being fresh.
This is one of those things where, again, and to even go back to that thankfulnessconversation, I am thankful daily for shower, especially hot shower, on-demand hot shower.
(45:05):
It's baffling that that's a thing that-
Yeah.
um Yeah, we were just having, my son and I were talking about this because he's eight andhe's like, and I'm like, bud, just wait, we're going camping soon.
That idea that you can just, I'm going to roll right in and just clean up, you're going towant it even after a couple of days here, buddy.
(45:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's truly an interesting thing.
I have a story.
I had to go to Papua New Guinea last year for work and I was in middle of nowhere.
So the project I was evaluating was in a remote island of Papua New Guinea and there wereno electricity.
(45:52):
So they were having a fuel crisis.
So no electricity, which meant no running water.
And so one day it was like two days in and I was like, girls got a shower.
It's also 87 degrees outside every day.
So I was like,
where my shot, like where am I, what do I do?
And my colleagues were with me, they're like, you're gonna have to bathe in the river.
(46:13):
And I was like, oh, I'm bathing in a river.
Like the river that everyone's going to the bathroom in is where I'm bathing.
They're like, yeah, don't worry, it's fast moving.
I'm like, more worried.
Yeah, I was like, that makes me more worried.
So I had to bathe in the river.
was the first time, it was freezing cold.
I had to wear, you know, like a sarong and stuff.
(46:34):
It was very, like, I didn't fully clean because it's hard to clean yourself.
And, um, but while I was in the river and I was also in my head being like, I am way tooold to be breathing in a river for work.
Like, this is not something that I want to do it again.
Like, you know, middle-aged women who have never bathed before in a river to probablyshouldn't start, you know what I mean?
(46:58):
No, but the thing is it was a rapidly moving river, which means that the water.
just quickly entered my mouth at one point when I was like trying to do something with myhangout face.
And I was like 24 hours, I have 24 hours before I start feeling sick.
Sure enough, 24 hours, I was like, I feel terrible.
(47:19):
And the next day I had to fly home, which, you know, I had to fly through Hong Kong.
And at the Hong Kong airport, I get there and I, because I'm someone who has a lot of GIdisorders, I know how to mask really well.
And so I get to the Hong Kong airport and I was like, hello, I would like to see yourmedical staff, please.
And they were like, you don't look sick.
(47:39):
And I'm like, oh, I'm pretty sick.
Like I'm pretty sure I need a doctor.
And so they were like, that's going to cost you money.
like, I have medical insurance.
So please like give me, give me my doctor.
So they come in and they're like, they're just looking at me.
like, yeah, you seem fine.
I was like, just take the temperature.
And they like looked at, they're like, oh, you're sick.
And I was like, yeah, yeah.
I had like a 103 degree fever.
(48:02):
And they're like, you look fine.
I'm like, I'm really good at masking.
I'm always sick.
And they were actually debating if I was allowed on the plane.
Cause they're like, technically you have a fever of a certain level that we shouldn't letyou on the plane, but because you're masking and we know what you got sick from, we're
going to give you the meds and don't tell anybody in the airline that you're sick.
(48:24):
And I was like, okay, I'm going to be on this.
was like in the airplane and I was like telling my, my, you know,
a neighbor guy that was sitting next to me.
was like, Hi, stranger.
I just want to let you know, I do have food poisoning, and I am going to be very sick.
But like, don't worry, it's not contagious.
And he was just like, Okay, I was like, don't tell anyone.
(48:49):
It's a 15 hour flight home.
So please stay quiet.
So yeah, big fan of showers.
Yeah, that's fair.
And you know, with stories like that and others that you've shared, I get not mixing, youknow, the eating experience with the bathing shower.
(49:10):
Like, totally makes sense.
yeah, that's totally fair.
not my anal retentiveness.
uh Do you have a, and I'll say an American food establishment because I think we couldreally go down some wild ventures being abroad and traveling.
(49:32):
Do you have an American food establishment that does you the worst as far as in thebathroom?
I I could take the easier route, because I am lactose intolerant.
I'm a dairy queen, but um for obvious reasons.
But I don't actually, because of my GI stuff, I tend to cook at home.
(49:56):
um And I'm trying to think of if there's a restaurant that I go to.
Honestly, I don't think there's an establishment, clam chowder and ice cream at DairyQueen.
I can eat ice cream, but if it's like,
or like a hot chocolate will always make me sick.
Yeah, Ice cream's tough because I feel like if everybody's honest, it messes them up evenjust a little.
(50:21):
But it's tough to stay away from.
Well, and so my partner in our snows because he makes ice cream from scratch
Okay.
phenomenal and he's always like, it's good.
I'm like, ah, you've ruined me.
So I go to like, you know, ice cream parlors in other parts of the world and I'm like, no,like it doesn't, it doesn't chalk up.
(50:41):
But like, so we, we go to like bougie, like homemade, slow made ice cream parlors now.
So like it's pretty good, but yeah, there's, there's like, like I used to go to DairyQueen with my family when I was little and like every time I'd
Yes.
They're really doing the hard work, Dairy Queen is.
(51:08):
That is really all of the questions that I have.
Before I finish up with a couple of questions about Flush, do you have any bathroom wisdomthat you want to share with listeners?
Just advice or stories of survival, anything that you want to share?
got lots of stories of survival.
um It's always nice to have a squatty potty because it will always help you if you'rehaving a hard time letting go.
(51:38):
It helps your sphincter and one of the things that I also found is deep stomach breathingif you're having a hard time going, put the phone away.
I actually read poetry if I'm having a hard go.
It sounds silly, but it really does help.
like, and like deep stomach breathing, like deep in the belly, it kind of relaxes stuffand things go faster.
(52:05):
So there's that.
uh Other advice that I can give.
um Don't flush other things down the toilet.
Yes.
Yes.
um I was a janitor for 10 years and I have pulled countless things out of an S-Bend andyeah, that's just good advice all around.
(52:31):
Yeah.
I'm always surprised when people are like, why is my toilet not working?
I'm like, because you put pickles down the toilet.
Real story.
It happened.
Roommate story from a long time ago.
And it still upsets me.
Yeah, you know, I will confess my wrongdoing.
When I was a kid, I was probably fourth, fifth grade.
My mom gave me this just pot of soup that was, I don't know, it sat too long or something.
(52:56):
She said, I need you to dump it out.
And she meant go out into the Montana cold and dump it in the ditch or whatever.
And I was like, actually, and just in the toilet is what I did.
I now know that that's not a thing that I should have done.
um
uh Yep.
Yeah.
(53:16):
That's good advice.
So I wanted to kind of move to close.
Ask about what are some current, whether it's big projects or big focuses that y'all havefor Flush right now.
um We've got a lot of projects right now, so we're growing, oddly.
(53:36):
So everyone else in my sector is not, but we are.
And uh one of the things that I'm excited about is transitioning my company so that it's acooperative model.
like, I'm really big on like, know, white girls in the US should not be like doing jobsonly in Kenya because they're not Kenyan, they don't know the market.
(53:58):
So I have like a really fantastic East African group of colleagues and I'm trying to getthem to start thinking about like registering flush overseas.
So one of the things that I'm starting to do is how do I decentralize a company?
So it's not just my company.
I love my company.
I will run the US stuff.
I love doing stuff overseas, but do I, am I needed?
(54:18):
Like, do I actually have to go?
First of all, I'm tired and I don't want to fly 15 hours.
Second of all,
It's just, doesn't make sense all the time for me to do projects in certain countriesbecause I don't know it well enough and I don't know the local language.
So I'm trying to work with my colleagues on like learning how, like what certain parts ofrunning a business makes sense.
Like I can do the admin pieces, but like, how do you get work?
(54:41):
How do you talk about yourself and training them on that?
And also training them on like, do we want to start registering the company in othercountries?
So that's a big thing that I'm excited about.
And we're also, we're trying to have conversations.
So I don't know if you know, like all of the USAID stuff that happened, like USAID closeddown.
(55:04):
Most of my colleagues lost their jobs.
So a lot of them I'm taking on as associates, but we're starting to have this conversationof, know, like Americans are upset about this, but the African colleagues I know are like,
you know, this actually might be a good thing because
We want to be able to be more sustainable and we want to be able to like make our owndecisions.
(55:26):
So we started to like build out conversations.
Like what does, what does international development look like where maybe it is more like,you know, Kenyans for Kenyans and you know, the U S isn't doing that great either with
sanitation.
So it's like, Hey guys, like maybe we focus on the developing country that is the U Swhere we have a lot of.
(55:47):
A lot of people in the US don't have access to toilets and we don't talk about it or, youknow, all of that, like there are counties in Alabama and Appalachia that don't have good
access to good plumbing.
So we have issues too.
We just don't think about it much in the US or we don't communicate it that way.
So how do we start thinking of international development as more just like development?
(56:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
that so project wise with my clients, we've got some cool client projects, not going tolie, but I don't know if my clients want me to talk about it on a podcast.
Absolutely.
But yeah, like building out my company, growing it and also like getting empowering mycolleagues and my associates to start taking on projects without me and uh letting me run
(56:37):
the numbers that they want.
But like they can they can run with the brand because at end of the day,
I don't think this is going to be my forever thing.
I love toilets, like, you know, I'd love to also walk dogs and do that for a while.
And my ultimate goal that I want to do, but I haven't figured out how to balance it withmy work is I do want to write a history of toilets book because I have 6,000 years of
(57:01):
history in my head.
like people, I go to like events and like, tell me an interesting history fact.
I'm like, geez, can you narrow it down?
because I have too many history facts in my brain.
So yeah, I wanna build a history book where the center of the history isn't Rome, it isn'tEngland, which is historically what a lot of people focus on.
(57:23):
It's a history of the world where like, hey, did you know that Africans were using toiletswhen Europeans were going in the bush?
Let's have a conversation about that.
Let's have a first plumbing toilet, like the first flushing toilet for women was in Korea.
Let's have interesting conversations about all of this other interesting stuff that'shappening in the world that people don't focus on.
Because it's a lot cooler when you start bringing in those other pieces and seeing howlike, it's a world history, it's a cultural phenomenon.
(57:50):
So that's my like ultimate goal is to write this history book.
That's super cool.
Yeah.
And a lot of we do like history deep dives too.
And so I, you know, I don't know how far out that would be, but I will definitely be uhboth through just like following Flush and keeping eyes for that because that's going to
(58:13):
be a uh definite read.
actually, have like Sir John Harrington, wrote like when he invented the first like modernFlush toilet, he wrote this like,
long form treatise about- AX.
Yeah.
I bought the book.
I found it.
I used to have it in here somewhere for light reading, but yeah.
(58:35):
No, it would-
Medieval writing is what I'm reading to you.
That says a lot.
Well, you were saying you take him, no, it's not.
But you you're reading poetry.
Sometimes the distraction of like, yeah, I don't really know what he's saying.
Well, enough to.
Yep.
Yeah, you got it.
But that's super cool.
(58:57):
And before you go, would you tell folks where they can check out Flush and your own stuffif you want?
Go ahead and.
Share that with whoever's out there.
Yep, you can see FlushThings at itsflush.com.
We're on Blue Sky, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook.
And we're starting to dabble in YouTube very, very, very smally.
(59:21):
So feel free to look, and we have blogs that come out pretty regularly, I would say acouple times a month.
Always interesting, wacky things that you might wanna learn about, and we always takerequests, so if anyone has requests, we're happy to write blogs about those as well.
And yeah, my personal stuff is flushed right now.
So that's what you'll find me.
(59:42):
Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, Kim, thank you so much for joining us here on the pod.
I always tell people whenever I close out the show, I always feel like the dog that's inthe backyard, like going to the bathroom and then somebody catches what they're doing and
they're still doing it, but people are watching.
(01:00:03):
So I'm going to close out the show.
Yeah, but listener, thank you so much for being here.
I'm gonna save all of the plugs and just to say go follow Flush, check out itsflush.com ahand check out what they're doing in those blogs as well as their social media and things
going on out there.
It's how I found them and it's pretty interesting.
So go check that out.
As always, we wanna thank Kevin McLeod and Pottington Bear for the use of their music.
(01:00:27):
You can find it in the description down below wherever free use and that specialty musicis found.
Thank you so much for being here.
Keep pooping in the free world.
And now, as always, don't forget to flush.
Yeah, well, and same to you, you know?
there need, I think the, it's such a shame that we've let the stigma of like toilets andbathrooms become something where like it's just an untouchable topic when we do it every
day.
I mean, it's such an essential part of life.
And the fact that we've made it this taboo thing, there's reason for it a bit, but I thinkwe've almost gone too far.
(00:28):
Welcome back to Privy.
Privy is a podcast about bathrooms recorded from my home bathroom.
I'm your host, Hunter Hoover, and I love bathrooms.
um I'm in uh home bathroom, but I'm joined virtually via the power of the internet uh byFlush's one and only Kim Wersham.
(00:50):
Did I get your last name correct, Kim?
Perfect.
Welcome.
Thank you so much for being here.
How are you today?
I'm all right, how are you doing?
Thanks for inviting me.
Absolutely.
I'm doing well.
It's actually like my first real day.
I'm a school teacher by day.
So today is like my actual real first day of summer.
(01:12):
we were running around with the kids and getting that library stuff set up.
yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm just going to give you and also the listener kind of a brief, how did we get here?
Via social media, something that happens is the algorithm or the powers that be recommendme just countless bathroom related pages and profiles and accounts.
(01:43):
And I follow a handful of those, especially the ones that seem to have a lot to say and alot to provide and a lot of cool information just to keep track of what's going on out
there in the bathroom world.
And Flush was one of the early
uh bathroom related Instagram accounts that I had found and it's super cool to see.
(02:04):
I actually I was just earlier today I was on and I saw it might have been from some timeago but it was a video about the prisons in Alcatraz and I was reading through that.
Super fascinating stuff.
So that's kind of how we got to this point and then just reached out and said hey I liketo talk about bathrooms and
(02:25):
what y'all have going on at Flush seems uh very interested in them as well.
I will say I did a little digging around and I wanted to on Flush's website, it cites youas being kind of like having this childhood passion for bathrooms.
Can you share with us a little bit about what that was and what that looks like?
(02:46):
Sure, yeah.
So I have numerous gastrointestinal disorders.
So I've always been someone that's needed a bathroom, even since when I was a little girl.
And um I was always looking for a bathroom.
I was always not feeling safe if there was no bathroom.
And it became a family joke when I was younger, because whenever we would go to arestaurant in the 90s, I wouldn't let them sit down until I looked at the toilet first,
(03:12):
because I knew I was going to end up there.
Right, right.
I started joking around that I was like this toilet inspector, because I have a personalcode, because I wanted to make sure the toilet was good for me so that when I could go to
the bathroom, it would be fine.
yeah, and I totally forgot about that.
Like as I got older, I was like, you know, single digits child, eight, seven.
(03:34):
And then when I was trying to figure out my career stuff, you know, I liked a lot ofdifferent things.
And then I kind of rediscovered water and sanitation when I was doing work overseas.
And I called my mom at the time and I was like, Oh my God, I think I really want to workin toilets.
And she's like, yeah, that makes sense.
I didn't know what she was talking about.
She's like, don't you remember the inspections of all the toilets at the restaurants?
(03:57):
I was like, I remember it now, but like I, yeah, like I didn't put two and two together.
Yeah.
It's the thing.
It stood out more to them than it probably stuck with you.
That's interesting.
That's funny.
It probably wasn't funny in the moment, but um I know less gastrointestinal, but I thinkit's just anxiety of buildings and crowds.
(04:22):
Tracking down where the bathroom's at is definitely uh a component.
It is.
What took you overseas for the work that you were doing?
um I was pretty young in my career and I wanted to work overseas and I always wanted towork internationally.
And I ended up on a project in one of my grad programs where I went to India and uh neededa bathroom.
(04:44):
And it was a water-related program and I was doing some water work and needed a bathroomin the middle of nowhere in the rural areas.
Couldn't find one or find one that was allowed to use.
And I was like, you know what?
I can't be the only person that needs a bathroom all the time.
And it kind of opened light for me where I was like, my god, some people in the worlddon't have this.
(05:08):
And found out just how many people, mean, millions of people don't have access to toilets,even billions sometimes we could say.
So for me, that was like the big light turned on and.
You know, I started my career thinking I was going to be in entertainment and did that forlike a minute and got out and hated it.
And then I went into toilets and my parents were just like, what?
(05:30):
You like you went to business school, you went on to this international stuff and now youwant to work on toilets.
I was like, yeah, it's amazing.
That's awesome.
Wow.
I've been fortunate enough to not travel anywhere that I couldn't find one eventually, butI think the closest thing was we uh did some building project stuff in Mexico a few years
(05:58):
back and uh there was moments where it was like, is a hole, there's a seat and it's like,my goodness, this is wild.
uh
And in some of, I know there was a couple of places in Israel where you didn't flush thepaper, which was another big cultural separation because it just feels so wrong to not.
(06:23):
But yeah, it is a good reminder.
It's something that I think we definitely take for granted.
ah That's actually what sort of started this show.
It was actually around Thanksgiving and I was going through and I'm like, man,
This is pretty great that we have this access.
There's a lot of definite thankfulness in the backburners uh of the show.
(06:49):
You said you studied business.
Is that what led to Flush as, is it an organization?
I want to make sure I talk about it the right way.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, that's kind of how I've tried to marry my, you know, business degree and myinternational work together.
(07:12):
Um, you know, I got a degree at a fantastic business school in the U S and really didn'tknow what to do with it at the time.
And, you know, went off to do international development stuff.
And one of the things I kept seeing when I was in international development was just how
how much they struggled with things that we learned in business school and were prettyeasy to me where I was like, wow, why are we having such a hard time with this?
(07:38):
Particularly around communications.
So I have a marketing degree and I see a lot in water and sanitation.
It's a hidden topic partly just because we have a lot of enthusiastic engineers who don'tknow how to talk about it.
think that when they talk about it, it must make sense to everyone and then get confusedwhen people don't adopt the thing that they're trying to put in.
(08:07):
every time I was just like, yeah, you didn't do the marketing.
And everyone's going, oh, marketing is bad.
And I'm like, it's not.
It's just a way.
It's like, I mean, I don't think of myself as like a corporate hound or anything.
I think.
There's just a lot of misconceptions about business principles in the internationaldevelopment and nonprofit world, to be honest.
(08:30):
So I wanted to start a company to really provide those services and be like, I know whatyou're doing.
I align with your values, but I have this skillset and this skills that's kind ofimportant.
And I promise it'll help you.
um, yeah, so I started my company in 2018 and slowly built it up and it's, doing prettywell.
(08:51):
And.
you know, we're doing marketing support for some organizations and some otherorganizations were doing more like technical assistance on like evaluating how their
programs are doing.
So like, it kind of depends on the client what we actually do.
But yeah, like the main the main reason I started it was just because I was like, wow, youguys really don't understand how to like, run stuff.
(09:12):
And especially in in international development, it became really popular to talk aboutbusiness principles.
But
when they were talking about it, was all very theoretical.
And then when they would apply it, was like, that's not how that works.
That's not, that's not.
And I actually remember like, I had a full blown argument with someone about marketing,about what it was.
(09:32):
And, and I was like, I don't, have a degree in it.
I think I know what it is.
Like, I think I, passed, like I got some good grades in it and they kept trying to belike, that's not what it is.
And I was like, I don't know why you're trying to tell the person with a marketing degree,what marketing is.
Well, what you're telling me is not right.
Because they thought marketing was just flyers and radio station jingles.
(09:54):
And I was like, that's not it.
Marketing is like a whole lot of data and asking people questions, trying to understandhow they use stuff, saying, hey, this product isn't going to work or this service isn't
going to work because of this reason people don't like it.
And basically, it's like the relationship manager of anything you're trying to puttogether.
(10:17):
You know, when people started saying like, it's just communications.
like, it's really big.
Like, I mean, I had to take a lot of statistics classes and I had to learn a lot aboutlike how to engage with human beings.
And so started Flush to say, Hey, if you want this service, this is what we can do.
And we use our blog and we use our website and our social media as like proof of conceptof, Hey, people engage with us.
(10:41):
People think our stuff is really interesting and they reach out to us and we don't evenknow them like.
Here we are.
m
it gets found and people like it and and people are seeing that and they're resonatingwith it.
Oh, wow.
Like you do get people interested in your work and you don't have a big budget.
Like, no, you don't have to have a big budget, but you have to be smart about how you talkto people.
(11:02):
So, yeah, that's that's how flush started.
That's super cool.
uh I do have a question related to Flush and it's more of a personal curiosity.
Have you in this marketing world, especially with a name like Flush, I love it, but haveyou found people that are standoffish around the whole bathroom related concept or are
(11:23):
people pretty open to it?
Because I know just to share with this, there's folks that are like, wait now.
uh
whole thing about it and I was like yeah yeah you know bathrooms are everywhere.
Well, I think um it's kind of how I approach it with different people.
So like, I'm not going to go balls to the wall, talk about, you know, poo in bathroomswith someone who's like in private investment, right?
(11:48):
Like I'm going to start and kind of bring them in with like, hey, I work in like a climateor environmental related pro like thing, and we focus on sanitation and this is why.
So we try to kind of get them interested.
uh mean,
I think the challenge sometimes with my company name is they think I might be like acasino because like the card gains like a real flush.
(12:13):
So I get that sometimes or sometimes people get the name wrong or they're like, it'sflush.
I'm like, that's the name of the URL, but that's not the name of the company.
So I haven't had people get turned off by the name, but honestly, I find more people whenI tell them that I'm like a toilet expert.
(12:33):
I did a joke about this, I don't know, eight years ago.
I feel like a confessor.
I become this person where everything that's deep dark in their soul comes out abouttoilets.
I've always wanted to talk about this or ask this question to somebody.
And I get some really weird people tell me, because they're like, finally, somebody hasthis expertise and I can ask.
(12:56):
Or, oh, I had this experience and I need to share it.
And I'm always just like, OK.
and I'm happy to receive that information.
It's always, sometimes, and I think my face is like, I've been told I have a resting niceface.
So people just wanna share information to me.
yeah, so I've gotten some questions where I'm kind of like, okay, I'm not a sex edprofessional.
(13:18):
So I think that's actually a sexual education question or I actually don't know that muchabout animals.
And I feel like that might be someone else, like maybe a vet can answer that question.
I get some really weird questions when I'm the toilets.
If anything, I feel like people latch on really fast.
They're like, yes, really quick.
(13:38):
Well, good.
That's right at home here because when we started doing guested episodes, it began aspeople emailing me, like you said, these confessions essentially of bathroom confessions
and it's going, hey, do you want to talk to the internet about it and put it out therepublicly for everybody to hear?
(14:00):
About 50-50 on the people that are willing to do so.
um
What's the strangest question you've ever been asked about, whether bathroom-related orotherwise?
Um, yeah, I mean, and I really don't remember who this person was.
So I don't know if they'll ever listen to this, but they asked me about like the publichealth safety issues with like anal ingus.
(14:26):
And I was just like, you know what?
That's really not my specialty.
I like, I don't, I don't suggest you do that.
think there's cleaning protocols.
I don't know.
Like, I really, don't know how to answer your question.
And
You know, and the way they kind of looked at me like you can't finally answer this for me.
was like, I really don't know.
You know, I can tell you that there's, you know, bacteria down there that you will want tosanitize.
(14:53):
You might get, you know, food poisoning from it, but like, I don't know what else to tellyou.
Like, this is really out of my wheelhouse.
So I've gotten, that was my weirdest question, I would say.
But sometimes the weirdest questions, like the weird questions I get, I actually make mekind of go like, huh.
That's a question that like is really interesting and it makes me actually rethink how wearticulate stuff about sanitation toilets.
(15:17):
Like I had one, I was doing a class in Connecticut a while back and someone was asking melike, why do my wives fart smell and not mine?
And people were laughing at him because that's a weird question.
was like, no, actually that's a really interesting question because it's like anevolutionary question.
Like why evolutionarily speaking?
Why do yours not smell and hers do?
(15:38):
And I came up with a general idea of an answer, but I was like, you know, that's reallyinteresting that you want to know that because it's like how you engage with that stuff.
Whereas like in my sector, if I ask my colleagues that, they'll be like, why would weanswer that?
like, because some people want to understand how it relates to them.
So to me, sometimes it's, you know, I think people in my sector would be like, that's aweird question.
(16:02):
And I'm like, wait, wait, hold on, hold on.
Wait, there's a point in like, yeah, like let's try to unpack that.
Like, what is that about?
And like, why does it bother them?
And also what can we say?
So sometimes I think if someone was with me whenever I'm like engaging in public stuff,would just collect these questions.
(16:23):
And often I'm just like, yeah, that was a cool question.
How do I answer that?
I don't know.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
I don't know why, but all I can imagine is that person, their wife sitting next to themjust like, stop it, trying to shut it down.
(16:46):
For me, when you open the door, whether it's through flush or other mediums to bathrooms,it's like you give permission to people.
to be like, well, this person's at least this much comfortable with the concept ofbathrooms.
(17:06):
If I'm going to ask anybody, I'm going to shoot my shot with them.
Hats off to you for being that for people because they need it.
Like you said.
You know, like we there need I think the it's such a shame that we've let the stigma oflike toilets and bathrooms become something where like it's just an untouchable topic when
we do it every day I mean, it's such an essential part of life and the fact that we'vemade it this taboo thing There's reason for it a bit, but I think we've almost gone too
(17:34):
far Yeah, and when I go to certain countries, it's a lot easier to talk about my work thanit is here in the US
And people are like, hold on, I've been asked if I'm doing a bit when I talk about my workwhere they're like, are you doing a bit on me?
And I'm like, why would I make this up?
This just feels too good to be true.
I'm really good at cocktail parties.
(17:55):
But if I go to work with my colleagues in Kenya or Ghana, to them, they're like, yeah,that's a legitimate problem we have.
Let's go fix it.
yeah, I see it.
And here there's a lot more giggles.
And I'm originally from New York City.
where people like weird stuff, but I live in San Francisco now.
And there have been a couple of times when I'm trying to talk about my work and people arelike, wait, what, really?
(18:20):
That's what?
What do you mean?
You focus on toilets?
I'm like, yeah, actually it's kind of important.
And they're just really kind of befuddled the whole time, just thinking that I'm makingfun of them, I guess.
I don't know, but I'm always like, I don't know, this is.
This is legitimate.
get paid to talk about toilets.
(18:41):
That's Yeah.
Yeah, it happens.
Yeah, that's wow.
I imagine even Kenyan and I'm sure that's one of many places in the world where you just,I don't know, when you said that, my first response around bathrooms is to kind of like
(19:02):
you said, chuckle a little bit.
But for a lot of people, it's like, no, no, this is a serious thing that if we can't getthis hammered out, ah life is harder.
uh or less safe in many, instances.
It's a good reminder.
I've got dysentery more than once because of my work.
(19:23):
Really?
Yeah.
mean, and it's funny.
I was talking with my Ugandan colleagues and she was like, I don't know any Ugandan who'shad dysentery.
like, I've got it.
I've had it twice in two different countries.
I feel like my passion is even higher.
I've had parasites and stuff because when I'm working in certain places, I'm going tothese places because they don't have good access, which means...
(19:45):
m
Whitey McWhite White over here is going to end up getting dysentery and and it's funny tome because I'm always just like Yeah, like going to the doctor being like I have
dysentery.
No, you don't like Do the tests like I promise you I do and then they're like you do I'mlike, I know I have dysentery uh But it's made me more passionate because I'm like, yeah,
(20:06):
like look I I am proof of concept proof of proof of the need because Wow, I go to certainplaces and I get sick
And, you know, or people, you know, joke about going to certain countries and gettingsick.
And it's like, well, if they had toilets, we wouldn't have this problem.
So here we are.
(20:27):
It's a solvable problem.
It's time and resources and people to care.
It's a gnarly problem too though, mean it's complicated.
Yeah.
Again, that's that stuff you take for granted.
I think even when they just build houses and stuff over here, they have the infrastructurein place.
(20:50):
um I've found there's a couple of articles that I've seen on Flush that was laying outthat infrastructure piece.
It was talking a little bit about how stuff integrates with a bigger sewage picture.
I find that stuff super helpful mostly because like I said, I work at a high school.
(21:12):
These kids have no idea how internet gets to their phone.
They think it's magic.
The same is true for when they hit the flush.
Not my problem now.
I've shown a handful of them stuff and trying to get them, especially there's handfulsthat are into trades and looking to go towards trades and I'm like, you.
(21:34):
You may want to take a look at this.
This will give you a bigger picture feel for what you're going to go into.
Plumbers make some good money too and we're running out.
There are a bunch of them hiring so we're having like a bit of gap.
uh
That's why I think it's necessary, like you said, if we don't turn that corner, we'll havea different problem too, another problem.
(21:58):
um I do want to know mostly because just to totally bear my ignorance, my interaction withthe idea of dysentery is like playing the Oregon Trail back in the day.
uh
What are the symptoms?
Or unless it's super overbearing, like what are the-
graphics do want me to get?
(22:19):
mean...
I mean...
I mean, it's bloody mucus stool and it's pretty constant diarrhea, like sick sometimes.
I mean, it looks like other things sometimes.
So the first time I got it, they thought I had dengue fever.
And so I was in the hospital and they came out with my stool sample and they're like, goodnews, it's not dengue, it's dysentery.
(22:45):
And I was like, I don't know if that's better, but I mean, it was in some sense.
So you get like really high fever.
tend to get really bad back aches when I get it and really like lethargic stomach achesand cramping.
And then you get, you know, bloody stool.
So it's not even stool, it's bloody diarrhea.
So you do that.
(23:07):
And what is treatment, I mean modern day, what do they do for that?
So the dysentery I've had is from amoebas, and so I get an antiprotozoal.
So it's like an antiparasitic, but um I have to eat really bland foods and just be near atoilet for a week, essentially.
(23:28):
And the last time I wasn't near a toilet at one point, and I was in a very dark place fora minute.
But yeah, mean, you have to get rid of the amoebas and eat.
just like rice and that's kinda it.
Yeah, yeah.
(23:48):
That's crazy.
uh What a story.
I will say this, you are the first person I've ever met- Who's had in person or otherwisethat's had dysentery.
Yes, I've met one person who had scurvy of all things.
(24:10):
Yes, you're the first dysentery.
It's, it's occupational hazard.
are some cases of the, there are some countries where I've worked where it's almost like abadge of like proof.
Like I work in this sector.
I've had dysentery.
So I was living in Cambodia and everyone got dysentery and like, was just a wave ofdysentery that went through.
So we all got dysentery and my roommate at the time had dysentery before me.
(24:33):
So she was like, yeah, yeah, that's here's like, here's the, the stuff that I took, likegood luck with it.
So.
Yeah, it's just a it's kind of one of those things that just happens in some places
Yeah, that is a sad and unfortunate truth.
I don't know.
I think that would be an emotionally challenging thing as well.
(24:57):
At least for me, I don't know if I'd be like, this might be it, but.
You do feel like dying, but once the medicine kicks in, you start feeling better.
If they give you good medicine, and in some countries where they don't have the FDA, theygive you really good medicines.
You feel really good afterwards.
(25:19):
There's a couple of things.
When I'm traveling for work, there are certain meds, I'll go to the pharmacist and I'll belike, give me a pack of that because I'm bringing it home.
or when I my next food poisoning instance, because it's just really good.
And um yeah, so it's not like you want to die forever.
It's like you want to die for like a day or two.
(25:41):
It's like having a terrible flu.
And then you get over it and you survive it.
then, you know, the only challenge for me is because I've had so many parasites anddysentery in a short period of time, I actually can't eat.
meat anymore.
So I'm a pescatarian because my body doesn't digest meat anymore.
(26:02):
that's the that's the bummer.
But I mean, I bacon sometimes, but it's fine.
Yes.
Wow, that's crazy.
Hats off to you for both going through that and also going out there and doing that work.
Yes, that's an incredible thing.
(26:24):
I have a handful of questions that I ask everyone.
Then at the end, I want to make sure that we come back around and sandwich it with a shortconversation related to Flush.
And so I'm just going to kind of float these out there.
And if you want to expand on them as much or as little as you want.
(26:44):
um like I said, these are super uh related to what you're doing.
are like, we're back in kindergarten level questions.
So ah I'm not going to be asking you anything too terribly wild.
uh The first is, what is your preferred type of toilet paper?
Like brand, ply, all of those things.
(27:05):
What do you prefer?
I like bamboo and I get who gives a crap.
uh Like their bulk purchases.
I get a bulk box of them and they last me pretty well.
I like that they're durable and that they're nice and thick, but I also like the fact thatit's not trees.
Yeah, yeah, that's actually, I did like a whole, raided a whole bunch of toilet paper andI have like, it's called Honeycomb Bamboo toilet paper.
(27:33):
But that's what we actually have right now.
Nice.
that's, yeah, very cool.
And you said it's Who Gives a Crap that you, the one that you like?
Yeah.
Okay, I'm gonna have to check it out, because there's a handful of brands out there thathave popped up, I think, in the, not too distant past, but.
Yeah.
(27:53):
And then on your toilet paper, are you a fold it over or fold it under?
Over.
Okay.
um Is that like, are you set on that or are you?
yeah.
Okay.
Because every time I do it under, breaks whenever I try to pull it out.
So over is always easier for me.
Got it.
If you ever, like if you go to someone's house or if you go somewhere and it's under, willyou flip it?
(28:15):
No.
Yeah.
Perfect.
I'm just like, oh you're an under.
Okay.
Well, that's that's funny my uh My wife is is in the same camp as you she is like, nope Itmust go over and if and if you put it on the other way I'm flipping it around and then I'm
(28:37):
you know that you did it wrong
So in the toilet paper patent, it's supposed to be over.
So I mean, we're
We're correct.
People bring this up to me all the time and I'm convinced that it's not a conspiracybecause I don't want to go into that, but I'm convinced that the guy did that on purpose
because I think it actually uses more paper to go over unless you're being mindful.
(29:02):
I think if anybody's being mindful of their paper, you're going to solve that problem, butespecially little kids when they just grab and rip.
I think the over, I don't know, I'm working on a test for that, but I haven't been ableto.
uh I have two kids and isolating them on that test is like, wait, wait, wait, how many didyou use?
(29:25):
Like half of it's gone.
You got to chill out and then there's no way to measure anyway.
uh
You should like number every single piece of toilet paper and just see how many they gofor.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
I wonder if you could buy it.
There has to be like pre-numbered paper.
(29:46):
Oh, man.
Now I know what I know.
looking up later.
Do you do you prefer bar soap or liquid soaps?
Bar.
Bar.
Okay.
I like the feeling of control I have with the bar and I like the fact that like I justfeel like I can rub it better.
(30:07):
Like I don't like loofahs.
Loofahs are kind of gross to me and I have to use liquid soap sometimes when I'm travelingjust because that's like what's available.
And I always like the exfoliating feature of the bar soap.
So I just can't get behind the liquid.
My partner likes liquid but
Yeah, no, I'm like, he knows that I like bars like in my my Christmas stocking.
(30:30):
I always get like bars of stuff because I like soap.
Do you have a preferred brand or like a?
No, well, if I'm going to have to go for like a brand brand, it's going to be Dove becauseI have sensitive skin.
I tend to really like to go to markets where they have like goats milk soap because Ireally like how it works.
(30:50):
It's good.
And so the two best soaps I've ever used, one was donkey soap, donkey milk soap, which islike something that's really popular in France.
And so I got some and I was like, hold on.
Like I was getting this because it was funny and now I'm like really into it because if itwas nice and then charcoal soap, which is called soap in Ghana and that's really nice too.
(31:14):
So anything that's like milk or like just basically anything that someone's like making intheir house in like a sketchy way, I probably
man, it's the unsanctioned soap and dietary medications.
(31:34):
Yeah, that's it.
Yes, that's the way to go.
totally.
And then so related to that, not exactly, how do you feel about baths?
And to share where it's coming from, there's like two camps.
There's the folks that are like grossed out by baths and then there's the folks that likeit's...
it's peak experience for them.
do you, where do you fall on that continuum?
(31:56):
So I grew up not having baths.
we always did showers because my mom was told in the 80s that they weren't safe for kids.
So we didn't have baths really.
um Now I think it's weird that would stew.
I would become Kim Soup.
(32:17):
I don't like that idea.
oh But I know people I've tried to enjoy it in the past.
And I know some people do enjoy it and I just think I'm not it's not it's not it's not myjam So I really like the shower feeling and like historically speaking baths are really
like where it was at for a long time because it was like a full Spa experience and likethe shower only came in like what?
(32:43):
150 years ago or something Very recent but I just like I'm like, know what whoever decidedto like put a
bowl above their head and make a splash down on them was brilliant.
Love
yes.
ah Okay, yeah, I'm on the same page.
ah Do you have any bathroom pet peeves?
(33:06):
Like things that just drive you bonkers in the bathroom?
As in that I do or that other people do in my bathroom or in their bathroom.
any of it.
If you really want to dig down deep and find the things that you do that drive peoplenuts.
I mean, I think having, I have to think about this.
(33:31):
It's like not trying to say what drives me nuts my partner does basically is what I'mtrying to like, what else?
What's like not a partner thing?
I think of my bathroom as like my sanctuary.
like, there's just certain things about cleanliness that I like about my bathroom that I'dlike to keep.
(33:51):
um One of the things is I don't like it when people close the bathroom door after theyshowered.
Okay, just traps the...
Yeah, traps all the glue and stuff, or like they don't put the fan on or anything.
Like I've worked, lived with some roommates who were like, you have to close the door.
(34:12):
And I was like, do you not understand?
There's no window.
There's no way for us to get ventilation in here.
And that's like a really big peeve of mine.
Cause I don't like, I don't like the smell of mildew and I don't like the feeling ofeverything being kind of just like always a little bit soggy.
Yeah.
Realize, my biggest pet peeve.
Yeah, hey, is totally valid.
(34:34):
Yeah, I don't think of that one.
And I also don't think that, I mean, yeah, I don't think I've heard that one from people,uh but it's a good one, or even just the air, like when you go in, especially if it's not
been long since the shower has been off, you just get hit with the wave of like uh hot,warm, wet air, and it's like, ooh.
(34:57):
And there might be something to like one of my apartments in New York when I was livingthere for I lived there for a long time.
And one of my apartments, the bathroom ceiling fell on me and it might be something to dowith that because like, yeah, there was they were like close the door because there's
asbestos like in your in your bathroom now.
(35:20):
And I was like, cool.
Oh, my goodness, we're gonna ventilate.
that's yeah.
That's wild.
eh
Yeah, they didn't get rent that much.
uh Hey, that's Wow.
um So I'm going to be honest with you.
I have a series of what I've been told are like weird shower questions.
(35:46):
So I'm just going to go, I'm just going to dive right into them.
And if you're like, you know what, hard pass.
um But the first is, do you or have you ever taken a dark shower?
Just lights off, full shower experience with the lights off.
No.
Sometimes the power goes off when I'm overseas.
Okay, yeah.
(36:06):
so yes.
m
Okay, so I had a buddy in college that he did this and it was one of those things where itspread like wildfire and now it's like my preferred path forward.
I liken it to the sensory deprivation chambers, especially if you're a morning showerperson.
(36:27):
It's like this is the best way to ease myself into this day.
um So yeah, just the weird things that people do.
It's more strategic.
Like it is a six minute shower and I am like, I, it's clockable.
Like people at six minutes and I'm like taking the extra hair off of my head and stuff.
(36:49):
That's like falling out and whatever.
Cause I'm a female and I have a lot of hair and um, you know, like it's a very like, andnow is the time that we're doing the face and like, there's, just like the order.
It's my ritual.
It's like my operations and
If I don't have light, think that would hinder some of the things that I have to do in theshower.
Absolutely.
I think you have actually inadvertently answered a handful of these questions.
(37:13):
However, I'm going to soldier forth.
um Do you do any snacks either in the shower or you're like, noop, drinks, shower drink?
No, really?
Okay.
to do?
Why do need to blend things I enjoy?
This is a pure experience for me.
(37:33):
It's a shower.
Yeah, I, you know, it's, um...
There's a variety of things that are great in the shower.
There's a variety.
I've heard a lot of things that are a bridge too far.
I had a guy that was like, yes, a bag of chips.
I said, no, no, no.
(37:55):
That's madness.
Yeah, I know there's no food.
It is a non food place.
Like the bathroom is not a food place for me.
It's where things are evacuated, not for things to come in.
No, it's because I have like GI disorders.
(38:16):
maybe there's like, my bathroom experience is always a bit precarious because it's howmuch pain am I going to be in while I'm It's a safe zone.
Like the sterility of it needs to be there partly so that I feel
Yeah, that's fair.
And like, you know, like I have a thing where like, it's an IBS thing where like,sometimes I don't know if I'm gonna pass out puke or shit myself.
(38:45):
And when I'm on the bathroom, it's like, I don't know which one it is.
So I need everything to be like as food free as possible.
Cause it's like, I don't know what's gonna happen.
You don't want to add another calculation to that situation.
That's totally fair.
Totally fair.
Yes.
I guess I would recommend a shower drink if you ever are like, you know what, think I'mgoing to.
(39:12):
I'm down on me.
I can just open my mouth up and have some water from the shower.
I know a guy that said he makes ramen, like with the hot water and like I've had somedeviance on the show.
That's what I'm learning.
uh
I'm wondering how many of them have like, you know, some form of like bacterial growth intheir stomach and they have no idea.
(39:34):
Oh, I'm confident both based on our conversation right this moment and my co-workers'responses to just the things that I've said I've eaten.
I'm confident I've got something going on, but you don't know what's
It can be a prophylactic.
(39:57):
I've taken the wormy in pills as prophylaxis.
So you can go enjoy those.
my gosh, that's wild.
No orange in the shower as if it's an apple.
This is like uh a juice.
Okay, perfect.
Then the last shower question and we ask everybody on the show this question.
(40:20):
The first is, do you know what a waffle stomp is?
I don't know if I wanna know, but yeah, I don't know.
uh So in short, it's when a person poops into the bottom of the shower and then to justget it, they stomp it down.
know.
You're like running.
I'm fine.
(40:41):
Public health-wise, not fine.
Yeah, yeah.
Also, I have IBS, so like it, can't guarantee it's solid enough to do a stomp.
So um the times that I've heard and know of people having done this, it's actually becauseof moments like that, whether it's because of something they ate or known IBS where it's
(41:06):
like, I'm not going to make it out.
So we're just going and letting fly.
so I'm going to venture to say that you've never.
out of the bathroom if I have that urgent need because to me, like for a lot of reasons,one of them is like my sphincter doesn't work that way.
Our new little dog Izzy thinks that she has to police him so they just yell at me.
(41:28):
It's a great thing.
so like I don't think I want to ever do a waffle stomp.
Especially just because like my sphincter doesn't work that way and also it's like I...
I like the idea of the division of places in my house for activities.
So it's like, you know, like I don't nap on my bed because then my body thinks it'ssleeping for sleep, not napping.
(41:54):
So like I'll nap on the couch, right?
Like unless I'm sick and I know it's going to be like a three hour nap, like then I willsleep on my bed.
But otherwise like this is a fine place to nap.
And it's same like the kitchen is like where the food is and it's where it stays.
And it doesn't go in the bath
go there.
It doesn't actually like we don't need in the living room much either.
(42:14):
we, it's in the kitchen and like the bathroom is where like Kim takes care of her IBS.
And it's also the place where she cleans herself to like feel better after a bad bout ofit.
And the separation and the, know, like this is the place where I eliminate.
This is the place where I feel better.
(42:34):
And I don't want to have those like sensations crossed because I feel like psychologicallyI'll start associating.
Oh, yeah.
Well, and yeah, I will say you're onto something psychologically uh because once a person,what I found is if somebody's done it once, most of the times when I ask, they've done it
(42:55):
twice.
ah It's like they've given themselves permission ah and yes.
They say the same thing about murderers, you know, so like, I'm just putting that outthere.
There's a research project like how many known confirmed murderers have a correlation towaffle stomping or other deviant bathroom activity.
(43:23):
At which point they're just going to start tracking people that I've talked to at somepoint on this show in the past.
And I will be clear because she doesn't waffle sound so it's fine.
I will say less people have done it than have not.
So you are actually in the majority.
I don't know if that helps you navigate the world knowing that most people I've talked toare like, no, this is crazy.
(43:48):
I've weird things in the shower, and I've heard weird experiences that people do.
I feel better knowing that I'm not the only one who has a limit, but I'm sad for thepeople who have let that happen.
Who've accepted that as like, yeah, like it's like, you know, it's like how many shout,how many days do you go before a shower kind of question?
(44:13):
It's like after like your day, like to what end?
Yeah, I had a buddy tell me one time, gosh, that he said after day five you haveregulated, like your, I don't know, body ecosystem, whatever, has hit stasis and he says
(44:35):
you're gonna smell exactly how you're gonna smell.
I don't know if that's true.
He was not the cleanest guy, but you know.
the feeling of just being fresh.
This is one of those things where, again, and to even go back to that thankfulnessconversation, I am thankful daily for shower, especially hot shower, on-demand hot shower.
(45:05):
It's baffling that that's a thing that-
Yeah.
um Yeah, we were just having, my son and I were talking about this because he's eight andhe's like, and I'm like, bud, just wait, we're going camping soon.
That idea that you can just, I'm going to roll right in and just clean up, you're going towant it even after a couple of days here, buddy.
(45:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's truly an interesting thing.
I have a story.
I had to go to Papua New Guinea last year for work and I was in middle of nowhere.
So the project I was evaluating was in a remote island of Papua New Guinea and there wereno electricity.
(45:52):
So they were having a fuel crisis.
So no electricity, which meant no running water.
And so one day it was like two days in and I was like, girls got a shower.
It's also 87 degrees outside every day.
So I was like,
where my shot, like where am I, what do I do?
And my colleagues were with me, they're like, you're gonna have to bathe in the river.
(46:13):
And I was like, oh, I'm bathing in a river.
Like the river that everyone's going to the bathroom in is where I'm bathing.
They're like, yeah, don't worry, it's fast moving.
I'm like, more worried.
Yeah, I was like, that makes me more worried.
So I had to bathe in the river.
was the first time, it was freezing cold.
I had to wear, you know, like a sarong and stuff.
(46:34):
It was very, like, I didn't fully clean because it's hard to clean yourself.
And, um, but while I was in the river and I was also in my head being like, I am way tooold to be breathing in a river for work.
Like, this is not something that I want to do it again.
Like, you know, middle-aged women who have never bathed before in a river to probablyshouldn't start, you know what I mean?
(46:58):
No, but the thing is it was a rapidly moving river, which means that the water.
just quickly entered my mouth at one point when I was like trying to do something with myhangout face.
And I was like 24 hours, I have 24 hours before I start feeling sick.
Sure enough, 24 hours, I was like, I feel terrible.
(47:19):
And the next day I had to fly home, which, you know, I had to fly through Hong Kong.
And at the Hong Kong airport, I get there and I, because I'm someone who has a lot of GIdisorders, I know how to mask really well.
And so I get to the Hong Kong airport and I was like, hello, I would like to see yourmedical staff, please.
And they were like, you don't look sick.
(47:39):
And I'm like, oh, I'm pretty sick.
Like I'm pretty sure I need a doctor.
And so they were like, that's going to cost you money.
like, I have medical insurance.
So please like give me, give me my doctor.
So they come in and they're like, they're just looking at me.
like, yeah, you seem fine.
I was like, just take the temperature.
And they like looked at, they're like, oh, you're sick.
And I was like, yeah, yeah.
I had like a 103 degree fever.
(48:02):
And they're like, you look fine.
I'm like, I'm really good at masking.
I'm always sick.
And they were actually debating if I was allowed on the plane.
Cause they're like, technically you have a fever of a certain level that we shouldn't letyou on the plane, but because you're masking and we know what you got sick from, we're
going to give you the meds and don't tell anybody in the airline that you're sick.
(48:24):
And I was like, okay, I'm going to be on this.
was like in the airplane and I was like telling my, my, you know,
a neighbor guy that was sitting next to me.
was like, Hi, stranger.
I just want to let you know, I do have food poisoning, and I am going to be very sick.
But like, don't worry, it's not contagious.
And he was just like, Okay, I was like, don't tell anyone.
(48:49):
It's a 15 hour flight home.
So please stay quiet.
So yeah, big fan of showers.
Yeah, that's fair.
And you know, with stories like that and others that you've shared, I get not mixing, youknow, the eating experience with the bathing shower.
(49:10):
Like, totally makes sense.
yeah, that's totally fair.
not my anal retentiveness.
uh Do you have a, and I'll say an American food establishment because I think we couldreally go down some wild ventures being abroad and traveling.
(49:32):
Do you have an American food establishment that does you the worst as far as in thebathroom?
I I could take the easier route, because I am lactose intolerant.
I'm a dairy queen, but um for obvious reasons.
But I don't actually, because of my GI stuff, I tend to cook at home.
(49:56):
um And I'm trying to think of if there's a restaurant that I go to.
Honestly, I don't think there's an establishment, clam chowder and ice cream at DairyQueen.
I can eat ice cream, but if it's like,
or like a hot chocolate will always make me sick.
Yeah, Ice cream's tough because I feel like if everybody's honest, it messes them up evenjust a little.
(50:21):
But it's tough to stay away from.
Well, and so my partner in our snows because he makes ice cream from scratch
Okay.
phenomenal and he's always like, it's good.
I'm like, ah, you've ruined me.
So I go to like, you know, ice cream parlors in other parts of the world and I'm like, no,like it doesn't, it doesn't chalk up.
(50:41):
But like, so we, we go to like bougie, like homemade, slow made ice cream parlors now.
So like it's pretty good, but yeah, there's, there's like, like I used to go to DairyQueen with my family when I was little and like every time I'd
Yes.
They're really doing the hard work, Dairy Queen is.
(51:08):
That is really all of the questions that I have.
Before I finish up with a couple of questions about Flush, do you have any bathroom wisdomthat you want to share with listeners?
Just advice or stories of survival, anything that you want to share?
got lots of stories of survival.
um It's always nice to have a squatty potty because it will always help you if you'rehaving a hard time letting go.
(51:38):
It helps your sphincter and one of the things that I also found is deep stomach breathingif you're having a hard time going, put the phone away.
I actually read poetry if I'm having a hard go.
It sounds silly, but it really does help.
like, and like deep stomach breathing, like deep in the belly, it kind of relaxes stuffand things go faster.
(52:05):
So there's that.
uh Other advice that I can give.
um Don't flush other things down the toilet.
Yes.
Yes.
um I was a janitor for 10 years and I have pulled countless things out of an S-Bend andyeah, that's just good advice all around.
(52:31):
Yeah.
I'm always surprised when people are like, why is my toilet not working?
I'm like, because you put pickles down the toilet.
Real story.
It happened.
Roommate story from a long time ago.
And it still upsets me.
Yeah, you know, I will confess my wrongdoing.
When I was a kid, I was probably fourth, fifth grade.
My mom gave me this just pot of soup that was, I don't know, it sat too long or something.
(52:56):
She said, I need you to dump it out.
And she meant go out into the Montana cold and dump it in the ditch or whatever.
And I was like, actually, and just in the toilet is what I did.
I now know that that's not a thing that I should have done.
um
uh Yep.
Yeah.
(53:16):
That's good advice.
So I wanted to kind of move to close.
Ask about what are some current, whether it's big projects or big focuses that y'all havefor Flush right now.
um We've got a lot of projects right now, so we're growing, oddly.
(53:36):
So everyone else in my sector is not, but we are.
And uh one of the things that I'm excited about is transitioning my company so that it's acooperative model.
like, I'm really big on like, know, white girls in the US should not be like doing jobsonly in Kenya because they're not Kenyan, they don't know the market.
(53:58):
So I have like a really fantastic East African group of colleagues and I'm trying to getthem to start thinking about like registering flush overseas.
So one of the things that I'm starting to do is how do I decentralize a company?
So it's not just my company.
I love my company.
I will run the US stuff.
I love doing stuff overseas, but do I, am I needed?
(54:18):
Like, do I actually have to go?
First of all, I'm tired and I don't want to fly 15 hours.
Second of all,
It's just, doesn't make sense all the time for me to do projects in certain countriesbecause I don't know it well enough and I don't know the local language.
So I'm trying to work with my colleagues on like learning how, like what certain parts ofrunning a business makes sense.
Like I can do the admin pieces, but like, how do you get work?
(54:41):
How do you talk about yourself and training them on that?
And also training them on like, do we want to start registering the company in othercountries?
So that's a big thing that I'm excited about.
And we're also, we're trying to have conversations.
So I don't know if you know, like all of the USAID stuff that happened, like USAID closeddown.
(55:04):
Most of my colleagues lost their jobs.
So a lot of them I'm taking on as associates, but we're starting to have this conversationof, know, like Americans are upset about this, but the African colleagues I know are like,
you know, this actually might be a good thing because
We want to be able to be more sustainable and we want to be able to like make our owndecisions.
(55:26):
So we started to like build out conversations.
Like what does, what does international development look like where maybe it is more like,you know, Kenyans for Kenyans and you know, the U S isn't doing that great either with
sanitation.
So it's like, Hey guys, like maybe we focus on the developing country that is the U Swhere we have a lot of.
(55:47):
A lot of people in the US don't have access to toilets and we don't talk about it or, youknow, all of that, like there are counties in Alabama and Appalachia that don't have good
access to good plumbing.
So we have issues too.
We just don't think about it much in the US or we don't communicate it that way.
So how do we start thinking of international development as more just like development?
(56:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
that so project wise with my clients, we've got some cool client projects, not going tolie, but I don't know if my clients want me to talk about it on a podcast.
Absolutely.
But yeah, like building out my company, growing it and also like getting empowering mycolleagues and my associates to start taking on projects without me and uh letting me run
(56:37):
the numbers that they want.
But like they can they can run with the brand because at end of the day,
I don't think this is going to be my forever thing.
I love toilets, like, you know, I'd love to also walk dogs and do that for a while.
And my ultimate goal that I want to do, but I haven't figured out how to balance it withmy work is I do want to write a history of toilets book because I have 6,000 years of
(57:01):
history in my head.
like people, I go to like events and like, tell me an interesting history fact.
I'm like, geez, can you narrow it down?
because I have too many history facts in my brain.
So yeah, I wanna build a history book where the center of the history isn't Rome, it isn'tEngland, which is historically what a lot of people focus on.
(57:23):
It's a history of the world where like, hey, did you know that Africans were using toiletswhen Europeans were going in the bush?
Let's have a conversation about that.
Let's have a first plumbing toilet, like the first flushing toilet for women was in Korea.
Let's have interesting conversations about all of this other interesting stuff that'shappening in the world that people don't focus on.
Because it's a lot cooler when you start bringing in those other pieces and seeing howlike, it's a world history, it's a cultural phenomenon.
(57:50):
So that's my like ultimate goal is to write this history book.
That's super cool.
Yeah.
And a lot of we do like history deep dives too.
And so I, you know, I don't know how far out that would be, but I will definitely be uhboth through just like following Flush and keeping eyes for that because that's going to
(58:13):
be a uh definite read.
actually, have like Sir John Harrington, wrote like when he invented the first like modernFlush toilet, he wrote this like,
long form treatise about- AX.
Yeah.
I bought the book.
I found it.
I used to have it in here somewhere for light reading, but yeah.
(58:35):
No, it would-
Medieval writing is what I'm reading to you.
That says a lot.
Well, you were saying you take him, no, it's not.
But you you're reading poetry.
Sometimes the distraction of like, yeah, I don't really know what he's saying.
Well, enough to.
Yep.
Yeah, you got it.
But that's super cool.
(58:57):
And before you go, would you tell folks where they can check out Flush and your own stuffif you want?
Go ahead and.
Share that with whoever's out there.
Yep, you can see FlushThings at itsflush.com.
We're on Blue Sky, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook.
And we're starting to dabble in YouTube very, very, very smally.
(59:21):
So feel free to look, and we have blogs that come out pretty regularly, I would say acouple times a month.
Always interesting, wacky things that you might wanna learn about, and we always takerequests, so if anyone has requests, we're happy to write blogs about those as well.
And yeah, my personal stuff is flushed right now.
So that's what you'll find me.
(59:42):
Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, Kim, thank you so much for joining us here on the pod.
I always tell people whenever I close out the show, I always feel like the dog that's inthe backyard, like going to the bathroom and then somebody catches what they're doing and
they're still doing it, but people are watching.
(01:00:03):
So I'm going to close out the show.
Yeah, but listener, thank you so much for being here.
I'm gonna save all of the plugs and just to say go follow Flush, check out itsflush.com ahand check out what they're doing in those blogs as well as their social media and things
going on out there.
It's how I found them and it's pretty interesting.
So go check that out.
As always, we wanna thank Kevin McLeod and Pottington Bear for the use of their music.
(01:00:27):
You can find it in the description down below wherever free use and that specialty musicis found.
Thank you so much for being here.
Keep pooping in the free world.
And now, as always, don't forget to flush.
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