November 22, 2023 • 37 mins
In this episode, we explore the Octalysis Framework with expert Amit Arora to understand how it drives product adoption. The conversation covers the 8 core drivers of customers: Epic Meaning, Accomplishment, Empowerment, Ownership, Social Influence, Scarcity, Unpredictability, and Avoidance. We discuss the relevance of psychological drivers and the importance of human emotions in decision-making. Amit emphasizes the framework's applicability in both B2C and B2B contexts and highlights the need for fine-tuning and continuous education. Success stories and measurement techniques are shared to illustrate its effectiveness. Overall, the conversation emphasizes staying informed and connected with customer behaviors and motivators to drive product adoption and success.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Product Voices, a podcast where we share
valuable insights and usefulresources to help us all be
great in product management.
Visit the show's website toaccess the resources discussed
on the show, find moreinformation on our fabulous
guests, or to submit yourproduct management question to
be answered on our special Q&Aepisodes.
(00:23):
That's all at ProductVoicescom,and be sure to subscribe to the
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
Now here's our host, JJ Rory,CEO of Great Product Management.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hello and welcome to Product Voices.
So how do we increase productadoption?
It's not an easy question toanswer.
There's a lot of dependencies.
There's so much context to know.
Right.
In the end, it probably comesdown to your customer's
motivation or their drive, oryou know what's making them need
(00:56):
your product or believe thatyour product can add some value
to them.
I think finding that out may bethe secret to answering that
adoption question.
So I'm excited about thisconversation today.
It's going to be reallyfascinating and we're going to
dive into that and specificallydive into something called the
italysis framework, and ouramazing guest is going to give
us lots more insights on thatand how it can help in product
(01:18):
adoption.
So Amin Arora has spent over 20years launching products that
have generated over a billiondollars in revenue, which is
awesome.
He's currently VP and head ofproduct at Swiss Re.
He runs the cyber riskinsurance group and he's also a
professor of AI and applied riskanalytics at Columbia
University.
He's a friend of mine.
I love following him, learningfrom him.
(01:39):
He is an all around productexpert.
Amit, thanks for joining me.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Thank you for having me.
Jj Pleasure.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
So let's just set the stage for the conversation.
Some folks may not know aboutthis framework and what it is
and what it can do.
So just tell us what isOctalysis and some of its
history, basics of it, just setthe context for us.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And this is a framework thatwas developed by a person called
Yu Kaichu I hope I'mpronouncing their name correctly
and the whole idea was that, inorder for companies to focus on
(02:28):
product adoption once theylaunch new products in the
market, that's the next area tofocus on post a launch, what do
they need to do to kind of getto the adoption curve that they
want to achieve?
And the Octalysis frameworkprimarily talks about focusing
(02:53):
on the core human values ormotivational values that drive
adoption in the market.
The framework is based on thepremise that systems are
function focused, designed tocomplete a task as quickly as
possible, very similar to afactory process.
(03:13):
Marketing workers will completetheir tasks in a timely manner
because they are required to doso.
However, when you look atOctalysis, it's a very
non-function focused approachtowards adoption, which is more
of a human focus thatacknowledges that people, unlike
machines in a system, havefeelings and securities,
(03:35):
motivations, et cetera, and theywant to or do not want to do
certain things and therefore, ifwe were to kind of optimize
those feelings, motivations, itwould lead to a higher
engagement.
Now that has been widelyadopted by psychologists, by
consumer behavior analysts, wholend this expertise into the
(04:02):
area of product adoption andmaking a product, you know, sell
more units, make the revenuesthat the company expects it to
make, and remain competitive,you know, with respect to other
things that are out there in asimilar capacity.
So this is a great area ofdifferentiation, you know, when
you're trying to kind of makeyour product successful and I
(04:26):
think, as I said, thefundamental difference is in
terms of how you go after themarket, whether it's a function
focus design, go-to-marketstrategy versus a human, you
know design, go-to-marketstrategy.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, that's fascinating.
So this framework, you know forthe record, you would think,
and hence this kind ofphilosophy and focus on this,
you would think that goingtowards a more human
motivational type of focus anddirection would be more
successful than just a functionfocused.
(05:06):
And of course functions comeinto it, features come into it,
the solution side of thingscomes into it.
But, you know, focusing onthose human drivers and human
motivators first, I think, seemsto be the answer there.
So, in terms of this frameworkthere's, I'm assuming, with the
name Octalysis, there are eightmotivators or drivers that it
(05:26):
talks about.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
That's right.
So you know it's constantlyevolving as well.
But the original framework wasit had a octagonal shape, you
know, visually speaking, witheach corner depicting a
particular code drive that youcould.
You could, if you're a productmanager, you could align those
drives to your products and youdon't have to necessarily go
(05:52):
after all the eight code drivesthat are denominated by these
eight corners.
You can pick and choose.
You know it depends on whetheryou have a B2B product or a B2C
product.
You know, of course thosedrives, you know, would be
different out of those from achoice perspective.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, that was going to be my next question.
What do product teams do?
You know?
What do they literally do?
How do they go about theactivities of figuring out which
are the drivers or motivatorsfor their customers?
What are some of the techniquesthat have helped them figure
out those behaviors, thosemotivators, those drivers?
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
So you know.
Let me briefly talk about thoseeight drivers and I can maybe
take a few examples to showcaseyou know how different companies
have led to a greater productadoption or solutions adoption
by using some or all of thosecode drives or drivers.
Right, so you know?
(06:53):
The first one is called EpicMeaning, or Calling, epic
Calling, and this code drive isin play when a person believes
that he or she is doingsomething greater than oneself
or was chosen to take action.
For example, if you go toCostco, costco provides free
(07:15):
samples when you enter the store.
More often than not that leadsconsumers to believe that they
owe something in return.
So it's a psychological play.
And then, from that feeling ofobligation, you end up buying
something from Costco when yougo there just because you ate
(07:39):
some free samples there.
There are other areas of epicmeaning and calling.
Examples could be beginner'sluck, for example.
So sometimes you're playing avideo game or you're engaged in
some activity with the productthat you're using and all of a
sudden new levels open up, oryou are rewarded more often as
(08:04):
you start to adopt a new productin the early stages of the
product adoption, and it becomesless and less.
But in the early stages you feelas if you have some beginner's
luck and you're more motivatedto use that product more often,
which is very, very common inall the video games that are
(08:24):
being developed or have beendeveloped, and earlier levels
are easier to crack, giving youthat feeling that, hey, you're
really good at it and you'remotivated to get to the next
level.
But then it gets a little bitharder and harder and then at
some point in time they ask youto pay money to buy special
tools and weapons and stuff, etcetera, to meet the next level.
(08:49):
But that's just themonetization side of it.
But I think from an epicmeaning perspective, that's
basically what it is.
The contributors do not receiveany intrinsic reward, but they
feel that their contributionwill help develop and protect
something, or get them to thenext level.
(09:10):
So the next core driver is aboutaccomplishment.
Again, these are things likestatus points, badges, progress
bars, crowning, the aura effect.
So, for example, facebook ifyou think of Facebook as a
(09:33):
product, facebook provides topfan badges to people who
regularly comment, like or shareposts from a page and those fan
badges are your badge of honorin whichever world that you live
in, right?
So?
Or status points and thingslike that.
So it helps consumers to kindof not consumers but Facebook to
(09:55):
kind of get the consumers toadopt Facebook more and more
from a usage perspective.
So that's the accomplishmentside of things.
The perception of the challengeis important.
So, for example, a badge or atrophy without a challenge is
not meaningful for a person,right?
So that's why the point systemand the badge systems, progress
(10:20):
bar, quest lists, those kind ofthings were kind of designed to
kind of cater to that level ofhuman emotion.
The third driver is all aboutcreativity, feedback,
empowerment, right?
So again, taking the example of, let's say, video games video
(10:42):
games unlocking later stages orspecial weapons after playing or
passing the previous ones makesyou feel empowered, so in your
mind.
So you have milestone unlocks,you have I don't know boosters,
for example, chain combos.
So if you cross, like threelevels in adoption or in product
(11:05):
that you're using, all of asudden something fantastic will
open up for you that wouldthrill you.
Similarly, with airlines,rewards programs right After you
hit certain milestones, thenyou get upgraded to silver, then
to gold, then to platinumlevels, right, each of those
levels unlocking new benefitsfor you.
(11:27):
So it's all about how do youget the consumers to spend more
time or money and money mayberight and kind of motivate to
kind of keep being involved inthat process and then get them
to some level of reward andempowerment.
(11:48):
The fourth driver is aboutownership and possession.
Ownership, whatever we call it,and the simplest example would
be the ability to, let's say,create avatars, for example
yourself, apple phones, forexample.
(12:11):
Let you create avatars that canbe personalized and that leads
to a sense of ownership, right,the more you can personalize the
product to your needs and theway you think, the way you
behave, the way you perceivethat you are right and your
product is a reflection of you,you know you would be more
(12:33):
attached to that product, right,there'll be loyalty, stickiness
to that product, adoption, andyou would not maybe switch to a
competitive product after acouple of years or some point in
time, even though it might belower priced, better features,
but then you have developed sucha strong bond with your product
that you almost feel like it'sowner in that regard, right.
(12:55):
So that's a very powerfulemotion that companies play on
from an adoption standpoint.
And then you have, of course,the social influence as another
driver, right, and Instagram.
You know Twitter.
All these social mediacompanies are very strong and
(13:16):
using social influence to gainnet new customers, make sure
that the churn rates are low.
Instagram creates followers andfollowing features wherein
people are with more followersare are given a greater social
influence.
Youtube is another example,right, and they are conformity
(13:41):
anchors.
You are thought of as an expertor a mentor to a lot of people
in your age group or in yourdemographics or whatever that
you're trying to do on thesesocial media.
You know channels and products.
So that idea of social, beingable to exert social influence
(14:07):
on a large group of people isanother.
You know psychological boostthat consumers get, right, and
when you're able to provide themwith the powers of social
influence, obviously there's ahigher level of product option
and you feel like you knowgetting to the next level in
that power.
(14:27):
So that's another very strongmotivator or a driver.
And I think there's another veryinteresting driver and this is
like a personal favorite of minewhich is all about creating
some artificial scarcity interms of, you know, product
(14:51):
availability and you have thingslike the countdown timers or
limited edition things beingbrought into the market and that
obviously leads to I mean,you've seen, you know leads to
higher product option, right,those kind of things sell out in
(15:11):
, like you know hours or days orwhatever, right, when the
window opens.
You know candy crushes and,again, a great example, you know
, where they have a limitedtimer and number of moves,
generating a drive of wantingsomething because you can't have
it, kind of a thing, right.
So that's a I wouldn't say afear of missing out kind of a
(15:34):
phenomena.
It's related to that.
But then you know appointmentdynamics.
You know you kind of danglesomething in front of your
consumers for a limited time,for a limited price and all of a
sudden you see a spike inadoption for those features or
those products.
So that's, you know, a lot ofcompanies kind of try to do that
(15:57):
and this basically is aroundthe human emotion of impatience,
fear of missing out, but thecore drive of wanting something
simply because it's extremelyrare or exclusive or immediately
unattainable makes you kind ofpursue that.
You know a little bit more,even though you may not really
have a big need for that product.
(16:21):
And torture breaks is anotherthing, right?
So what torture breaks reallymeans is you know.
You know you basically ask theconsumers to, let's say, come
back in two hours to get yourrewards.
So for those two hours theconsumers are like impatiently
waiting.
Hey, I'm gonna go to this nextlevel in this game, but you know
it's gonna unlock itself in twohours, so I gotta wait here
(16:43):
patiently.
So that plays a lot on yourmind, right.
And if you were not able, ifyou're.
So two scenarios like one isthat no such torture breaks in
your product versus there areright.
So in the first scenario,without the torture breaks,
obviously there's the motivationand the anxiety and the
(17:05):
excitement is kind of missing,because then it seems all too
easy to achieve, right.
And you know, the humans aredesigned genetically in a way
that if things seem to bedifficult to attain or achieve,
we kind of tend to give thatmore importance or a higher
price tag, you know,artificially in our head, so
(17:27):
those become more valued for noother reason than just being,
you know, a little bit perceivedto be difficult to get, kind of
a thing.
And then you knowunpredictability and curiosity
forms the next you know side ofthe dialysis.
And unpredictability is allabout random rewards.
(17:50):
For example, right, easter eggskind of a phenomena, you know
sudden rewards, you know, andyou know a lot of companies you
know provide scratch cards whichcan provide rewards between a
range you know, and that leadsto people feeling optimistic and
keep using those products inhope of earning those random
(18:11):
rewards again and again.
Right, so that's another waythat a lot of companies kind of
keep their consumers engaged inthat regard.
And then the last you know sideis called avoidance, loss and
avoidance, basically, and lossand avoidance is one of the core
(18:35):
drivers that motivates us toavoid something negative from
happening.
Right.
On a small scale, it could bealso to avoid losing previous
work or changing one's behavior.
But at a large scale, if youwere to look at it, it could be
to avoid admitting thateverything you did up to this
point was useless because youare now quitting Again.
(18:58):
Airlines points, right.
If you don't use your airlinespoints in the next two years
they will fade out, right, orthey will expire, or hotel
points that we earn, etc.
So you're trying to kind ofavoid losses by continuing to
(19:18):
adopt the product more and more,just for that reason and not
for any other reasons, right?
It's essentially a sunk costprison that you kind of trapped
your consumers in that regard,and LinkedIn, for example, is
great in doing that.
(19:40):
You might have noticed that yousometimes get notifications
about people reacting on postsof their friends or a list of
people who have viewed yourprofile, generating a sense of
fear of missing out to use theplatform, kind of a thing, right
.
So I mean, that's another greatexample or a technique to kind
(20:03):
of get people to adopt more ofyour product.
So I think those are the eight.
You know corners, and everycorner kind of obviously does
not relate to each and everyproduct that gets launched,
right, but you've got to pickand choose your corners.
You've got to pick and choosewhat would motivate your
audience or your consumers toremain sticky and loyal to your
(20:27):
product and continue to use itmore and more.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, I love that.
Thanks for that overview.
So it's so interesting as youwere explaining all of it.
I was thinking about some ofthe examples.
So the airlines, for example,not only would I can imagine,
not only are each of the driversrelevant to each product, but
there may be customers who aremotivated by different things
(20:52):
that you would think.
Right, you may same thingairline miles.
You may be motivated bysomething and I may be motivated
by another driver.
Right, I think of myself, andthe things that matter to me are
getting to board first.
I don't know why that mattersto me, but I just I love it.
You know, the idea of being ingroup like six, like it, gives
(21:13):
me anxiety, to know it.
So I have no idea why we're allgoing the same place.
I've got my seat, you know, Iget it, but, whatever reason,
I'm motivated by that.
But hearing you talk about someof those others I also think
about, okay, it's kind of astatus.
I kind of like being first, youknow, and going on, and then
everybody else has to, you know,go on after me.
(21:34):
I hope that doesn't sound asawful as I think it does in my
head, but those are the thingsthat I like about it without
really thinking about it before.
So you know, it's interestingand some of the things that are
in this framework and thisphilosophy make total sense.
But I'm curious, if you've.
They seem to make perfect sensefor consumer customers, you
(22:00):
know, individual consumers.
What about businesses?
How have you?
And again, businesses are madeup of people, so there are, you
know, human motivators there.
But how have you seen companiesand product teams leverage this
type of thing for businesscustomers?
Same kind of ideas, or there'ssome nuances that they should
(22:22):
think about?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah.
So that's a great question andI do not think, then, originally
, this you know framework wasdeveloped, right, it was meant
for, you know, b2b segment.
The idea was to kind of learnmore from the gamification side
(22:50):
of things.
So, like you know, video gamesfor example, how do you, how do
you, you know, get you know theconsumers to stay sticky to a
video game and not switch toanother, very similar game
that's being launched, right?
So that's, I think that thosewere pretty much the origins of
(23:10):
the framework and it wasobviously B2C, you know, focus,
but obviously the B2B areas alsokind of picking up some
traction.
In that regard, again, you know,human emotions are constant,
right, as you, as you rightlymentioned, there are people on
(23:31):
both sides of two companies whoare making a transaction, and I
think a lot of these strategiescould still be adopted and they
are being adopted, you know,whether we consciously know
about it or not.
But let's say, for example,avoidance is a very relevant
(23:55):
strategy, for example, if you'rein the M&A space, merchants and
acquisitions, right, and that'sa transaction too.
So you're a big company tryingto acquire a smaller leading
tech company and you know, ifyou're not able to kind of act
at the right time.
Even though the price might bea little bit too high and you
(24:16):
don't have enough runway fornegotiation, there are other
suitors that might look at thecompany and potentially acquire
it.
Maybe you're competitors, right?
So that kind of also plays inthe human psychology, and all
those people who are makingdecisions are also humans, right
, irrespective of the level.
(24:36):
So I think there's that.
Scarcity is another conceptthat would probably play in that
area, you know, and so I wouldsee merchants and acquisitions
as one example of a B2Btransaction where a lot of
octalysis framework co-driversare still in play, even though
they are at a business level,for example.
(24:57):
But I can think of some otherexamples too, but I just wanted
to see if you have any thoughtson this example.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, I like that example.
It makes sense.
I mean again, you're buying acompany but you're buying the
product, right?
You can look at it a couple ways.
The product is the company, orthey're also looking at the
company's products, right?
And so I think M&A is a goodexample of that, and it kind of
is an interesting examplebecause you could assume that
(25:33):
lots of B2B transactions couldfall in there, right, and I
think I mean at least where myhead is in terms of just
generally B2C versus B2B productmanagement.
I think that the core is reallyfinding that customer problem
and that customer motivator, andso this would apply to any of
them, right, we may have to dothings a little bit differently
(25:56):
and maybe there's a couple ofextra steps, or we have to look
at things slightly differentlyif we're talking about a
business versus an individual,but at the end of the day,
businesses and the peoplerunning that business and making
the decisions about yourproduct are looking to
accomplish something, or lookingto own some part of their own
(26:17):
process or whatever it is,whether of their competitors
having something that they don'tright.
I mean, I can imagine all ofthese types of behaviors really
kind of play into it, and it'sincumbent upon us as product
folks to figure it out right,what is driving our customers?
Who are our customers?
What drives them and then kindof put the right mechanisms into
(26:40):
place around our products toleverage that behavior or those
motivators.
So that tends to make a lot ofsense and I agree with you, it
seems like this was created formore consumers, but I don't
think that in any way eliminatesthe value for B2B product teams
(27:00):
.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Absolutely, and I've seen tons of examples in the M&A
space and also when you talkabout the meta words, for
example, right In, this conceptcame around at a scale a couple
of years ago.
Right, everybody was kind ofrushing.
When I say everybody, I'mtalking about the corporates and
the enterprises.
Right, you have Nike's of theworld, adidas is of the world,
(27:23):
the leading brands of the worldtrying to get a virtual real
estate on Metaverse, which wasanother enterprise product,
right, so there you have theprices going through the roof,
and it was essentially driven bythe intrigue.
(27:47):
Obviously, social influence waspart of it.
That was driving it.
And then what companies werereally trying to do was, maybe
look at the avoidance side ofthings, so what if they are not
able to get a prime real estatein the virtual time square of
the Metaverse?
Right, so what if somebody elsegot there first?
(28:10):
And so the sense of ownership,fear of missing out all those
factors were driving thecorporate behavior to kind of
get onto the Metaverse and flashtheir brands and get some level
of consumer adoption in thevirtual world too.
So that's maybe another exampleof how emotions were kind of
(28:31):
taking over pure efficiency, orwhat we call the
function-focused designmotivators that I was talking
about earlier.
So it kind of translated moreto the human-focused endeavors
and motivations that led to thegrowth of Metaverse in the early
(28:52):
years.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, that's a great example and I think it's just an
important lesson for thosefolks of us that work in B2B
products that sure our customersmay be very clinical and cold
in the way they're talking aboutwhat they need and they need
efficiency and they need costsavings and they need things
(29:14):
that are very kind of systematic, but at the end of the day,
they're humans and let's digdeeper into how they're making
their decisions and what aresome of those drivers for them
making decisions for theirbusiness.
And I think that's an importantlesson for all of us not to
forget and not for us to get sofocused on that function and
(29:35):
feature set that we forget thatdecisions are made by humans and
that's an important aspect.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yeah, and there's another aspect to this as well,
you know, which is you know, howdo you, how do you, as a
product lead or a productmanager, say that I've been
successful in using octalysis?
Right, and it's a verysubjective topic in itself, as
you can imagine, right?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
You talk about human emotions, human focus, design,
and let's say, your product, youknow, goes from a million
dollars in revenue in year zeroto, let's say, 20 million
dollars in year three.
How will you attribute the useof this framework to your
product's adoption success?
Right, and I think the way thatone can go about this in
(30:26):
objectifying and quantifyingthis framework is, you know a
method called.
You know you can actually score, you know what you did in a way
, right?
So let's say you have anynumber between zero and 10 based
on personal judgment, data orexperience, right, and you
square that number to get thecode drive score right.
(30:48):
So, basically, for each cornerof the of the framework, you put
a number between zero and 10 interms of you know how, how
valuable you think that thatparticular corner is for your
product adoption.
You square that number and youget a score.
And then you add all the codedrive scores to get a final
score right, very simple, veryeasy to implement.
(31:10):
And then you look at that scorefor your product versus, let's
say, product B that you mighthave launched as well, and then
you see that product A had ahigher score, using this formula
, versus the other product whichhas a lesser score, and then
you correlate that with thesuccess, the financial success,
of your product, and then youare able to kind of see some
(31:32):
relationship between a highscore using this framework
versus higher financial successof the product adoption.
So that's one simple way tokind of look at it as well.
And you know, you look at AppleWatch, for example.
Apple Watch was launched in2015 or so, like eight or nine
years ago, and in five yearsright, apple sold more watches
(31:58):
than the entire Swiss watchindustry.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Oh my gosh, wow.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
And then when I try to kind of apply, you know, or
try to understand how Apple wasable to make the Apple Watch
such a successful product, youknow, from an adoption
standpoint right, and when Ilook at the Talusus framework
for Apple Watch, of all theeight corners, I can easily take
(32:27):
off at least six corners onthat.
So basically they were veryhigh on the Talusus score.
And we need to look at thefinancial success and the
product adoption in the market.
That basically, you know,corroborates that fact that if
you have a higher score on aTalusus, you are able to, kind
(32:49):
of, you know, do much better inthe real markets too.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
I love that and I think it's such an important
point that we have to find waysto quantify or to at least
assign some level of attributionto the success to this
framework.
I think to your point, there issome subjectivity here and
that's just part of it.
But the more we can, you know,make it quantifiable in some way
(33:16):
, the more that our stakeholdersare going to buy into it and
see the value in that.
And so I think that leads me tomy final question for you, amit
, is how do you suggest peopleget started?
Like, are there resources outthere for people to learn more?
Are there ways that you thinkyou know have seen product
(33:37):
managers and product teamsintroduce this into their
organization?
How would you suggest folkslearn more and get started if
they wanted to do this moreoften?
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Yeah, no, I think that's a great question and I
think for Amit, a lot of it isintuition, right, which is
inherent to any good productmanager, right as a professional
.
But then if you want to go, youknow, go scientifically about
it, right, there are a lot ofresources.
You know you have the creatorof the framework, you know
(34:11):
Yookaichu, who has, you know,his own website, right, where
there's tons of materialavailable for budding product
managers to kind of go on andlook at and read and understand
the tons of, you know, casestudies on the internet that
where companies have used thisframework to kind of
(34:31):
successfully launch not justlaunch, but get their products
to a great level of adoption inthe global markets, right.
So I think that that is a greatstarting point.
I think, in addition to that,once you're over that, you know
kind of applying some of thesecore drivers to the design
(34:54):
framework of whichever productthat you're trying to create.
You know, and validating thatthrough, let's say, a-b testing.
Or you know taking the productout for a beta trial before a
general availability or acommercial launch and getting
that feedback from sample.
Or you know random customersinitial, you know sample
(35:17):
customers, to validate which ofthose eight areas of the
framework you know is resonatingwith the real markets.
I think that's a great way tokind of put theory to practice.
You don't have to, kind of, youknow, go all out with
everything that's given in thisframework, because obviously
everything will not apply toyour product.
(35:39):
Right, you have to be selected.
But then the way that you goabout figuring out which areas
you know apply to your productis, you know, take the product
out.
You know, in a limited launch,you know capacity for pilot
projects in some narrowgeographical areas or limited
demographics, and then you knowtry it out, get the feedback and
(36:02):
see what's working, what's notworking, and then you know, find
you accordingly.
I mean, that's probably thebest way to kind of go about it.
Once you've learned theframework and learned you know
how you can go about it.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, that's great advice and so we'll post some
links out on theproductvoicescom on how you can
find out more and learn more and, you know, educate yourself on
it.
And then, yeah, just greatadvice to you know, try it in
your organization.
You know, brainstorm, think androll it out in a small form and
(36:34):
learn what works and doesn't,and just keep iterating, just
like we do on everything else inproduct.
So awesome, great advice and Ilove this conversation.
I'm it, aurora.
Thank you so very much forjoining me on product voices,
sharing your wisdom on thissubject.
Loved learning more from youand thanks again for being with
me.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
No, thank you, JJ.
It was a great session talkingto you and thanks for all the
great questions.
I hope they are helpful to theaudiences and the product
manager folks who want to know alittle bit more about this
framework.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Yeah, thank you.
It definitely was valuable, andwe will also put links how to
connect with Amit, if you wouldlike to, on LinkedIn and
elsewhere.
Always a good thing to connectwith these amazing guests on
product voices.
So thank you all again forjoining us on product voices.
Hope to see you on the nextepisode.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Thank you for listening to product voices
hosted by JJ Rory.
To find more information on ourguests, resources discussed
during the episode, or to submita question for our Q&A episodes
, visit the show's website,productvoicescom, and be sure to
subscribe to the podcast onyour favorite platform.
Welcome to Product Voices, a podcast where we share
valuable insights and usefulresources to help us all be
great in product management.
Visit the show's website toaccess the resources discussed
on the show, find moreinformation on our fabulous
guests, or to submit yourproduct management question to
be answered on our special Q&Aepisodes.
(00:23):
That's all at ProductVoicescom,and be sure to subscribe to the
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
Now here's our host, JJ Rory,CEO of Great Product Management.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hello and welcome to Product Voices.
So how do we increase productadoption?
It's not an easy question toanswer.
There's a lot of dependencies.
There's so much context to know.
Right.
In the end, it probably comesdown to your customer's
motivation or their drive, oryou know what's making them need
(00:56):
your product or believe thatyour product can add some value
to them.
I think finding that out may bethe secret to answering that
adoption question.
So I'm excited about thisconversation today.
It's going to be reallyfascinating and we're going to
dive into that and specificallydive into something called the
italysis framework, and ouramazing guest is going to give
us lots more insights on thatand how it can help in product
(01:18):
adoption.
So Amin Arora has spent over 20years launching products that
have generated over a billiondollars in revenue, which is
awesome.
He's currently VP and head ofproduct at Swiss Re.
He runs the cyber riskinsurance group and he's also a
professor of AI and applied riskanalytics at Columbia
University.
He's a friend of mine.
I love following him, learningfrom him.
(01:39):
He is an all around productexpert.
Amit, thanks for joining me.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Thank you for having me.
Jj Pleasure.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
So let's just set the stage for the conversation.
Some folks may not know aboutthis framework and what it is
and what it can do.
So just tell us what isOctalysis and some of its
history, basics of it, just setthe context for us.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And this is a framework thatwas developed by a person called
Yu Kaichu I hope I'mpronouncing their name correctly
and the whole idea was that, inorder for companies to focus on
(02:28):
product adoption once theylaunch new products in the
market, that's the next area tofocus on post a launch, what do
they need to do to kind of getto the adoption curve that they
want to achieve?
And the Octalysis frameworkprimarily talks about focusing
(02:53):
on the core human values ormotivational values that drive
adoption in the market.
The framework is based on thepremise that systems are
function focused, designed tocomplete a task as quickly as
possible, very similar to afactory process.
(03:13):
Marketing workers will completetheir tasks in a timely manner
because they are required to doso.
However, when you look atOctalysis, it's a very
non-function focused approachtowards adoption, which is more
of a human focus thatacknowledges that people, unlike
machines in a system, havefeelings and securities,
(03:35):
motivations, et cetera, and theywant to or do not want to do
certain things and therefore, ifwe were to kind of optimize
those feelings, motivations, itwould lead to a higher
engagement.
Now that has been widelyadopted by psychologists, by
consumer behavior analysts, wholend this expertise into the
(04:02):
area of product adoption andmaking a product, you know, sell
more units, make the revenuesthat the company expects it to
make, and remain competitive,you know, with respect to other
things that are out there in asimilar capacity.
So this is a great area ofdifferentiation, you know, when
you're trying to kind of makeyour product successful and I
(04:26):
think, as I said, thefundamental difference is in
terms of how you go after themarket, whether it's a function
focus design, go-to-marketstrategy versus a human, you
know design, go-to-marketstrategy.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, that's fascinating.
So this framework, you know forthe record, you would think,
and hence this kind ofphilosophy and focus on this,
you would think that goingtowards a more human
motivational type of focus anddirection would be more
successful than just a functionfocused.
(05:06):
And of course functions comeinto it, features come into it,
the solution side of thingscomes into it.
But, you know, focusing onthose human drivers and human
motivators first, I think, seemsto be the answer there.
So, in terms of this frameworkthere's, I'm assuming, with the
name Octalysis, there are eightmotivators or drivers that it
(05:26):
talks about.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
That's right.
So you know it's constantlyevolving as well.
But the original framework wasit had a octagonal shape, you
know, visually speaking, witheach corner depicting a
particular code drive that youcould.
You could, if you're a productmanager, you could align those
drives to your products and youdon't have to necessarily go
(05:52):
after all the eight code drivesthat are denominated by these
eight corners.
You can pick and choose.
You know it depends on whetheryou have a B2B product or a B2C
product.
You know, of course thosedrives, you know, would be
different out of those from achoice perspective.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, that was going to be my next question.
What do product teams do?
You know?
What do they literally do?
How do they go about theactivities of figuring out which
are the drivers or motivatorsfor their customers?
What are some of the techniquesthat have helped them figure
out those behaviors, thosemotivators, those drivers?
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
So you know.
Let me briefly talk about thoseeight drivers and I can maybe
take a few examples to showcaseyou know how different companies
have led to a greater productadoption or solutions adoption
by using some or all of thosecode drives or drivers.
Right, so you know?
(06:53):
The first one is called EpicMeaning, or Calling, epic
Calling, and this code drive isin play when a person believes
that he or she is doingsomething greater than oneself
or was chosen to take action.
For example, if you go toCostco, costco provides free
(07:15):
samples when you enter the store.
More often than not that leadsconsumers to believe that they
owe something in return.
So it's a psychological play.
And then, from that feeling ofobligation, you end up buying
something from Costco when yougo there just because you ate
(07:39):
some free samples there.
There are other areas of epicmeaning and calling.
Examples could be beginner'sluck, for example.
So sometimes you're playing avideo game or you're engaged in
some activity with the productthat you're using and all of a
sudden new levels open up, oryou are rewarded more often as
(08:04):
you start to adopt a new productin the early stages of the
product adoption, and it becomesless and less.
But in the early stages you feelas if you have some beginner's
luck and you're more motivatedto use that product more often,
which is very, very common inall the video games that are
(08:24):
being developed or have beendeveloped, and earlier levels
are easier to crack, giving youthat feeling that, hey, you're
really good at it and you'remotivated to get to the next
level.
But then it gets a little bitharder and harder and then at
some point in time they ask youto pay money to buy special
tools and weapons and stuff, etcetera, to meet the next level.
(08:49):
But that's just themonetization side of it.
But I think from an epicmeaning perspective, that's
basically what it is.
The contributors do not receiveany intrinsic reward, but they
feel that their contributionwill help develop and protect
something, or get them to thenext level.
(09:10):
So the next core driver is aboutaccomplishment.
Again, these are things likestatus points, badges, progress
bars, crowning, the aura effect.
So, for example, facebook ifyou think of Facebook as a
(09:33):
product, facebook provides topfan badges to people who
regularly comment, like or shareposts from a page and those fan
badges are your badge of honorin whichever world that you live
in, right?
So?
Or status points and thingslike that.
So it helps consumers to kindof not consumers but Facebook to
(09:55):
kind of get the consumers toadopt Facebook more and more
from a usage perspective.
So that's the accomplishmentside of things.
The perception of the challengeis important.
So, for example, a badge or atrophy without a challenge is
not meaningful for a person,right?
So that's why the point systemand the badge systems, progress
(10:20):
bar, quest lists, those kind ofthings were kind of designed to
kind of cater to that level ofhuman emotion.
The third driver is all aboutcreativity, feedback,
empowerment, right?
So again, taking the example of, let's say, video games video
(10:42):
games unlocking later stages orspecial weapons after playing or
passing the previous ones makesyou feel empowered, so in your
mind.
So you have milestone unlocks,you have I don't know boosters,
for example, chain combos.
So if you cross, like threelevels in adoption or in product
(11:05):
that you're using, all of asudden something fantastic will
open up for you that wouldthrill you.
Similarly, with airlines,rewards programs right After you
hit certain milestones, thenyou get upgraded to silver, then
to gold, then to platinumlevels, right, each of those
levels unlocking new benefitsfor you.
(11:27):
So it's all about how do youget the consumers to spend more
time or money and money mayberight and kind of motivate to
kind of keep being involved inthat process and then get them
to some level of reward andempowerment.
(11:48):
The fourth driver is aboutownership and possession.
Ownership, whatever we call it,and the simplest example would
be the ability to, let's say,create avatars, for example
yourself, apple phones, forexample.
(12:11):
Let you create avatars that canbe personalized and that leads
to a sense of ownership, right,the more you can personalize the
product to your needs and theway you think, the way you
behave, the way you perceivethat you are right and your
product is a reflection of you,you know you would be more
(12:33):
attached to that product, right,there'll be loyalty, stickiness
to that product, adoption, andyou would not maybe switch to a
competitive product after acouple of years or some point in
time, even though it might belower priced, better features,
but then you have developed sucha strong bond with your product
that you almost feel like it'sowner in that regard, right.
(12:55):
So that's a very powerfulemotion that companies play on
from an adoption standpoint.
And then you have, of course,the social influence as another
driver, right, and Instagram.
You know Twitter.
All these social mediacompanies are very strong and
(13:16):
using social influence to gainnet new customers, make sure
that the churn rates are low.
Instagram creates followers andfollowing features wherein
people are with more followersare are given a greater social
influence.
Youtube is another example,right, and they are conformity
(13:41):
anchors.
You are thought of as an expertor a mentor to a lot of people
in your age group or in yourdemographics or whatever that
you're trying to do on thesesocial media.
You know channels and products.
So that idea of social, beingable to exert social influence
(14:07):
on a large group of people isanother.
You know psychological boostthat consumers get, right, and
when you're able to provide themwith the powers of social
influence, obviously there's ahigher level of product option
and you feel like you knowgetting to the next level in
that power.
(14:27):
So that's another very strongmotivator or a driver.
And I think there's another veryinteresting driver and this is
like a personal favorite of minewhich is all about creating
some artificial scarcity interms of, you know, product
(14:51):
availability and you have thingslike the countdown timers or
limited edition things beingbrought into the market and that
obviously leads to I mean,you've seen, you know leads to
higher product option, right,those kind of things sell out in
(15:11):
, like you know hours or days orwhatever, right, when the
window opens.
You know candy crushes and,again, a great example, you know
, where they have a limitedtimer and number of moves,
generating a drive of wantingsomething because you can't have
it, kind of a thing, right.
So that's a I wouldn't say afear of missing out kind of a
(15:34):
phenomena.
It's related to that.
But then you know appointmentdynamics.
You know you kind of danglesomething in front of your
consumers for a limited time,for a limited price and all of a
sudden you see a spike inadoption for those features or
those products.
So that's, you know, a lot ofcompanies kind of try to do that
(15:57):
and this basically is aroundthe human emotion of impatience,
fear of missing out, but thecore drive of wanting something
simply because it's extremelyrare or exclusive or immediately
unattainable makes you kind ofpursue that.
You know a little bit more,even though you may not really
have a big need for that product.
(16:21):
And torture breaks is anotherthing, right?
So what torture breaks reallymeans is you know.
You know you basically ask theconsumers to, let's say, come
back in two hours to get yourrewards.
So for those two hours theconsumers are like impatiently
waiting.
Hey, I'm gonna go to this nextlevel in this game, but you know
it's gonna unlock itself in twohours, so I gotta wait here
(16:43):
patiently.
So that plays a lot on yourmind, right.
And if you were not able, ifyou're.
So two scenarios like one isthat no such torture breaks in
your product versus there areright.
So in the first scenario,without the torture breaks,
obviously there's the motivationand the anxiety and the
(17:05):
excitement is kind of missing,because then it seems all too
easy to achieve, right.
And you know, the humans aredesigned genetically in a way
that if things seem to bedifficult to attain or achieve,
we kind of tend to give thatmore importance or a higher
price tag, you know,artificially in our head, so
(17:27):
those become more valued for noother reason than just being,
you know, a little bit perceivedto be difficult to get, kind of
a thing.
And then you knowunpredictability and curiosity
forms the next you know side ofthe dialysis.
And unpredictability is allabout random rewards.
(17:50):
For example, right, easter eggskind of a phenomena, you know
sudden rewards, you know, andyou know a lot of companies you
know provide scratch cards whichcan provide rewards between a
range you know, and that leadsto people feeling optimistic and
keep using those products inhope of earning those random
(18:11):
rewards again and again.
Right, so that's another waythat a lot of companies kind of
keep their consumers engaged inthat regard.
And then the last you know sideis called avoidance, loss and
avoidance, basically, and lossand avoidance is one of the core
(18:35):
drivers that motivates us toavoid something negative from
happening.
Right.
On a small scale, it could bealso to avoid losing previous
work or changing one's behavior.
But at a large scale, if youwere to look at it, it could be
to avoid admitting thateverything you did up to this
point was useless because youare now quitting Again.
(18:58):
Airlines points, right.
If you don't use your airlinespoints in the next two years
they will fade out, right, orthey will expire, or hotel
points that we earn, etc.
So you're trying to kind ofavoid losses by continuing to
(19:18):
adopt the product more and more,just for that reason and not
for any other reasons, right?
It's essentially a sunk costprison that you kind of trapped
your consumers in that regard,and LinkedIn, for example, is
great in doing that.
(19:40):
You might have noticed that yousometimes get notifications
about people reacting on postsof their friends or a list of
people who have viewed yourprofile, generating a sense of
fear of missing out to use theplatform, kind of a thing, right
.
So I mean, that's another greatexample or a technique to kind
(20:03):
of get people to adopt more ofyour product.
So I think those are the eight.
You know corners, and everycorner kind of obviously does
not relate to each and everyproduct that gets launched,
right, but you've got to pickand choose your corners.
You've got to pick and choosewhat would motivate your
audience or your consumers toremain sticky and loyal to your
(20:27):
product and continue to use itmore and more.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, I love that.
Thanks for that overview.
So it's so interesting as youwere explaining all of it.
I was thinking about some ofthe examples.
So the airlines, for example,not only would I can imagine,
not only are each of the driversrelevant to each product, but
there may be customers who aremotivated by different things
(20:52):
that you would think.
Right, you may same thingairline miles.
You may be motivated bysomething and I may be motivated
by another driver.
Right, I think of myself, andthe things that matter to me are
getting to board first.
I don't know why that mattersto me, but I just I love it.
You know, the idea of being ingroup like six, like it, gives
(21:13):
me anxiety, to know it.
So I have no idea why we're allgoing the same place.
I've got my seat, you know, Iget it, but, whatever reason,
I'm motivated by that.
But hearing you talk about someof those others I also think
about, okay, it's kind of astatus.
I kind of like being first, youknow, and going on, and then
everybody else has to, you know,go on after me.
(21:34):
I hope that doesn't sound asawful as I think it does in my
head, but those are the thingsthat I like about it without
really thinking about it before.
So you know, it's interestingand some of the things that are
in this framework and thisphilosophy make total sense.
But I'm curious, if you've.
They seem to make perfect sensefor consumer customers, you
(22:00):
know, individual consumers.
What about businesses?
How have you?
And again, businesses are madeup of people, so there are, you
know, human motivators there.
But how have you seen companiesand product teams leverage this
type of thing for businesscustomers?
Same kind of ideas, or there'ssome nuances that they should
(22:22):
think about?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah.
So that's a great question andI do not think, then, originally
, this you know framework wasdeveloped, right, it was meant
for, you know, b2b segment.
The idea was to kind of learnmore from the gamification side
(22:50):
of things.
So, like you know, video gamesfor example, how do you, how do
you, you know, get you know theconsumers to stay sticky to a
video game and not switch toanother, very similar game
that's being launched, right?
So that's, I think that thosewere pretty much the origins of
(23:10):
the framework and it wasobviously B2C, you know, focus,
but obviously the B2B areas alsokind of picking up some
traction.
In that regard, again, you know,human emotions are constant,
right, as you, as you rightlymentioned, there are people on
(23:31):
both sides of two companies whoare making a transaction, and I
think a lot of these strategiescould still be adopted and they
are being adopted, you know,whether we consciously know
about it or not.
But let's say, for example,avoidance is a very relevant
(23:55):
strategy, for example, if you'rein the M&A space, merchants and
acquisitions, right, and that'sa transaction too.
So you're a big company tryingto acquire a smaller leading
tech company and you know, ifyou're not able to kind of act
at the right time.
Even though the price might bea little bit too high and you
(24:16):
don't have enough runway fornegotiation, there are other
suitors that might look at thecompany and potentially acquire
it.
Maybe you're competitors, right?
So that kind of also plays inthe human psychology, and all
those people who are makingdecisions are also humans, right
, irrespective of the level.
(24:36):
So I think there's that.
Scarcity is another conceptthat would probably play in that
area, you know, and so I wouldsee merchants and acquisitions
as one example of a B2Btransaction where a lot of
octalysis framework co-driversare still in play, even though
they are at a business level,for example.
(24:57):
But I can think of some otherexamples too, but I just wanted
to see if you have any thoughtson this example.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, I like that example.
It makes sense.
I mean again, you're buying acompany but you're buying the
product, right?
You can look at it a couple ways.
The product is the company, orthey're also looking at the
company's products, right?
And so I think M&A is a goodexample of that, and it kind of
is an interesting examplebecause you could assume that
(25:33):
lots of B2B transactions couldfall in there, right, and I
think I mean at least where myhead is in terms of just
generally B2C versus B2B productmanagement.
I think that the core is reallyfinding that customer problem
and that customer motivator, andso this would apply to any of
them, right, we may have to dothings a little bit differently
(25:56):
and maybe there's a couple ofextra steps, or we have to look
at things slightly differentlyif we're talking about a
business versus an individual,but at the end of the day,
businesses and the peoplerunning that business and making
the decisions about yourproduct are looking to
accomplish something, or lookingto own some part of their own
(26:17):
process or whatever it is,whether of their competitors
having something that they don'tright.
I mean, I can imagine all ofthese types of behaviors really
kind of play into it, and it'sincumbent upon us as product
folks to figure it out right,what is driving our customers?
Who are our customers?
What drives them and then kindof put the right mechanisms into
(26:40):
place around our products toleverage that behavior or those
motivators.
So that tends to make a lot ofsense and I agree with you, it
seems like this was created formore consumers, but I don't
think that in any way eliminatesthe value for B2B product teams
(27:00):
.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Absolutely, and I've seen tons of examples in the M&A
space and also when you talkabout the meta words, for
example, right In, this conceptcame around at a scale a couple
of years ago.
Right, everybody was kind ofrushing.
When I say everybody, I'mtalking about the corporates and
the enterprises.
Right, you have Nike's of theworld, adidas is of the world,
(27:23):
the leading brands of the worldtrying to get a virtual real
estate on Metaverse, which wasanother enterprise product,
right, so there you have theprices going through the roof,
and it was essentially driven bythe intrigue.
(27:47):
Obviously, social influence waspart of it.
That was driving it.
And then what companies werereally trying to do was, maybe
look at the avoidance side ofthings, so what if they are not
able to get a prime real estatein the virtual time square of
the Metaverse?
Right, so what if somebody elsegot there first?
(28:10):
And so the sense of ownership,fear of missing out all those
factors were driving thecorporate behavior to kind of
get onto the Metaverse and flashtheir brands and get some level
of consumer adoption in thevirtual world too.
So that's maybe another exampleof how emotions were kind of
(28:31):
taking over pure efficiency, orwhat we call the
function-focused designmotivators that I was talking
about earlier.
So it kind of translated moreto the human-focused endeavors
and motivations that led to thegrowth of Metaverse in the early
(28:52):
years.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, that's a great example and I think it's just an
important lesson for thosefolks of us that work in B2B
products that sure our customersmay be very clinical and cold
in the way they're talking aboutwhat they need and they need
efficiency and they need costsavings and they need things
(29:14):
that are very kind of systematic, but at the end of the day,
they're humans and let's digdeeper into how they're making
their decisions and what aresome of those drivers for them
making decisions for theirbusiness.
And I think that's an importantlesson for all of us not to
forget and not for us to get sofocused on that function and
(29:35):
feature set that we forget thatdecisions are made by humans and
that's an important aspect.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yeah, and there's another aspect to this as well,
you know, which is you know, howdo you, how do you, as a
product lead or a productmanager, say that I've been
successful in using octalysis?
Right, and it's a verysubjective topic in itself, as
you can imagine, right?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
You talk about human emotions, human focus, design,
and let's say, your product, youknow, goes from a million
dollars in revenue in year zeroto, let's say, 20 million
dollars in year three.
How will you attribute the useof this framework to your
product's adoption success?
Right, and I think the way thatone can go about this in
(30:26):
objectifying and quantifyingthis framework is, you know a
method called.
You know you can actually score, you know what you did in a way
, right?
So let's say you have anynumber between zero and 10 based
on personal judgment, data orexperience, right, and you
square that number to get thecode drive score right.
(30:48):
So, basically, for each cornerof the of the framework, you put
a number between zero and 10 interms of you know how, how
valuable you think that thatparticular corner is for your
product adoption.
You square that number and youget a score.
And then you add all the codedrive scores to get a final
score right, very simple, veryeasy to implement.
(31:10):
And then you look at that scorefor your product versus, let's
say, product B that you mighthave launched as well, and then
you see that product A had ahigher score, using this formula
, versus the other product whichhas a lesser score, and then
you correlate that with thesuccess, the financial success,
of your product, and then youare able to kind of see some
(31:32):
relationship between a highscore using this framework
versus higher financial successof the product adoption.
So that's one simple way tokind of look at it as well.
And you know, you look at AppleWatch, for example.
Apple Watch was launched in2015 or so, like eight or nine
years ago, and in five yearsright, apple sold more watches
(31:58):
than the entire Swiss watchindustry.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Oh my gosh, wow.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
And then when I try to kind of apply, you know, or
try to understand how Apple wasable to make the Apple Watch
such a successful product, youknow, from an adoption
standpoint right, and when Ilook at the Talusus framework
for Apple Watch, of all theeight corners, I can easily take
(32:27):
off at least six corners onthat.
So basically they were veryhigh on the Talusus score.
And we need to look at thefinancial success and the
product adoption in the market.
That basically, you know,corroborates that fact that if
you have a higher score on aTalusus, you are able to, kind
(32:49):
of, you know, do much better inthe real markets too.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
I love that and I think it's such an important
point that we have to find waysto quantify or to at least
assign some level of attributionto the success to this
framework.
I think to your point, there issome subjectivity here and
that's just part of it.
But the more we can, you know,make it quantifiable in some way
(33:16):
, the more that our stakeholdersare going to buy into it and
see the value in that.
And so I think that leads me tomy final question for you, amit
, is how do you suggest peopleget started?
Like, are there resources outthere for people to learn more?
Are there ways that you thinkyou know have seen product
(33:37):
managers and product teamsintroduce this into their
organization?
How would you suggest folkslearn more and get started if
they wanted to do this moreoften?
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Yeah, no, I think that's a great question and I
think for Amit, a lot of it isintuition, right, which is
inherent to any good productmanager, right as a professional
.
But then if you want to go, youknow, go scientifically about
it, right, there are a lot ofresources.
You know you have the creatorof the framework, you know
(34:11):
Yookaichu, who has, you know,his own website, right, where
there's tons of materialavailable for budding product
managers to kind of go on andlook at and read and understand
the tons of, you know, casestudies on the internet that
where companies have used thisframework to kind of
(34:31):
successfully launch not justlaunch, but get their products
to a great level of adoption inthe global markets, right.
So I think that that is a greatstarting point.
I think, in addition to that,once you're over that, you know
kind of applying some of thesecore drivers to the design
(34:54):
framework of whichever productthat you're trying to create.
You know, and validating thatthrough, let's say, a-b testing.
Or you know taking the productout for a beta trial before a
general availability or acommercial launch and getting
that feedback from sample.
Or you know random customersinitial, you know sample
(35:17):
customers, to validate which ofthose eight areas of the
framework you know is resonatingwith the real markets.
I think that's a great way tokind of put theory to practice.
You don't have to, kind of, youknow, go all out with
everything that's given in thisframework, because obviously
everything will not apply toyour product.
(35:39):
Right, you have to be selected.
But then the way that you goabout figuring out which areas
you know apply to your productis, you know, take the product
out.
You know, in a limited launch,you know capacity for pilot
projects in some narrowgeographical areas or limited
demographics, and then you knowtry it out, get the feedback and
(36:02):
see what's working, what's notworking, and then you know, find
you accordingly.
I mean, that's probably thebest way to kind of go about it.
Once you've learned theframework and learned you know
how you can go about it.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, that's great advice and so we'll post some
links out on theproductvoicescom on how you can
find out more and learn more and, you know, educate yourself on
it.
And then, yeah, just greatadvice to you know, try it in
your organization.
You know, brainstorm, think androll it out in a small form and
(36:34):
learn what works and doesn't,and just keep iterating, just
like we do on everything else inproduct.
So awesome, great advice and Ilove this conversation.
I'm it, aurora.
Thank you so very much forjoining me on product voices,
sharing your wisdom on thissubject.
Loved learning more from youand thanks again for being with
me.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
No, thank you, JJ.
It was a great session talkingto you and thanks for all the
great questions.
I hope they are helpful to theaudiences and the product
manager folks who want to know alittle bit more about this
framework.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Yeah, thank you.
It definitely was valuable, andwe will also put links how to
connect with Amit, if you wouldlike to, on LinkedIn and
elsewhere.
Always a good thing to connectwith these amazing guests on
product voices.
So thank you all again forjoining us on product voices.
Hope to see you on the nextepisode.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Thank you for listening to product voices
hosted by JJ Rory.
To find more information on ourguests, resources discussed
during the episode, or to submita question for our Q&A episodes
, visit the show's website,productvoicescom, and be sure to
subscribe to the podcast onyour favorite platform.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com