October 30, 2025 • 60 mins
What happens when educational leaders face back-to-back crises? How do they support traumatised communities while managing their own wellbeing? Leadership coach Annette Gray takes us deep into these questions, drawing from her powerful work with school principals following the devastating Black Summer bushfires.
The principals Annette coached were carrying an extraordinary burden—not just rebuilding physically destroyed schools, but becoming the emotional anchors for entire communities. "The principal was holding everything together and they were just incredibly exhausted," she shares. One leader, facing both bushfires and floods, confessed he simply couldn't make any more decisions. The emotional toll was palpable.
This experience illuminates a critical leadership challenge: how to navigate overwhelming circumstances while supporting others. Annette's approach focuses on creating space for leaders to be heard without judgment. Rather than dispensing advice, she guides them to discover their own solutions—a coaching mindset that transforms conversations.
The distinction between coaching and advice-giving emerges as crucial for all educational leaders. When Annette's daughter, a teacher struggling with challenging classroom behaviours, encountered leaders who bombarded her with strategies she'd already tried, the approach felt dismissive rather than supportive. "Coach-like conversations" instead begin with genuine curiosity: "What do you want from this conversation? What would make a difference?"
For busy principals, Annette offers immediate, practical suggestions. Being truly present matters more than availability—"If now's not a good time, when would be?" Simple acknowledgments like this demonstrate that you value the conversation enough to give it proper attention.
Beyond individual interactions, Annette advocates for group coaching, where leaders learn from each other's experiences and develop complementary leadership styles. This collaborative approach recognises that no single leader possesses all necessary competencies—especially important in today's complex educational landscape.
Self-awareness emerges as the fundamental leadership skill. Understanding your triggers, managing your responses, and creating boundaries around difficult conversations creates the foundation for effective leadership. As Annette puts it: "How do I bring my best self, best version of me, to this conversation?"
Ready to transform your leadership conversations? Connect with Annette at annettegray.com.au or explore her YouTube channel for more insights into creating human-centred, inclusive school cultures through the power of coaching.
Links and References:
To view our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning
To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Drew J (00:00):
Welcome back to Professional Learning's, the New
South Wales PPA EducationalLeadership Podcast.
It's great to have your company.
This podcast aligns to thevalues of the New South Wales
Primary Principals Association.
That is, the values ofprincipal wellbeing, principals
as lead learners, as well assupporting principals to lead
(00:22):
school operations.
If you enjoy this podcast,don't forget to subscribe for
further updates.
Now let's get into today'slatest episode.
I'm honoured to speak withsomeone whose life work is
helping leaders navigate notonly everyday challenges, but
also some of the toughestmoments imaginable.
My guest today is Annette Gray,leadership coach, facilitator
(00:50):
and mentor, whose mission is toempower leaders to transform
conversations and create morehuman, centered and inclusive
cultures.
From starting as a high schoolteacher to leading complex
culture changes projects acrossindustries, annette insights
resonates deeply with anyoneleading people through change
and challenge.
And for those of us ineducation, annette's work
(01:12):
supporting educational leadersin the recovery phase after the
devastating Black Summerbushfires of 2019 and 20 is a
powerful example of how coachingand leadership conversations
can be a lifeline in times ofcrisis.
With that, annette, a welcometo our podcast.
Great to have you with us.
Annette Gray (01:30):
Thank you so much, Drew.
I look forward to theconversation with you today.
Drew J (01:36):
Yeah, as am I, and let's well, let's start.
For the audience who may notknow you, let's start at the
beginning.
You grew up in Sydney, spentsome time, as I've, done my
research in the Philippines as achild and eventually found
yourself teaching in highschools.
How did those early experiencesshape your love for learning,
(01:59):
teaching and, ultimately,coaching Annette?
Annette Gray (02:04):
I think you know when I reflected on it you know
it's interesting I grew up withfour brothers and, yes, we did
live in the Philippines for fiveyears because my dad worked for
Qantas.
And what we always talk aboutat any of the family events you
know funerals, birthdays,whatever is what a profound
(02:25):
impact our time in thePhilippines had.
So I was early years ofschooling that I started my
schooling in the Philippines andthen only went.
I was seven when I came back.
So you know it was veryformative years.
But what it opened up for me isthis acceptance of diversity
(02:48):
and inclusion, and that is mypassion now.
How do we create workplaces,schools that are inclusive,
human-centred and diverse andhonouring the difference?
And that stuck with me.
And I think the other thing thatstuck with me in my childhood
(03:08):
when I reflect on it, my momwanted to be a teacher but
circumstances didn't allow herto go into teaching.
But she was a Sunday schoolteacher.
And then, when I look at myfamily, that so much influence
of teaching is in my family mydaughter's a teacher.
(03:31):
I was a teacher, I still teachadults.
Three nieces are teachers.
Like all from my brothers andmy family, we've influenced
people to go into education.
My two sister-in-laws areteachers and my five closest
friends I had from TeachersCollege, so it's such a strong
(03:53):
influence about this love oflearning and continuing to grow
and that's what I try and workwith leaders on.
There needs to be this opennessto change, to learn to navigate
.
You know we are now inambiguous times, so this is
where being open to look atthings differently, ai is having
(04:16):
such a big impact.
So that's a long answer to youknow the influences from the
past.
Drew J (04:22):
Oh well, it gives us a really great insight into your
background of who Annette Grayis, and also the alignment, as
you've clearly outlined, thealignment with educators as well
.
All of the people in yourclosest circle are educators.
So, education what I'm hearingreally resonates for you and you
(04:43):
can see the power of educationand the impact of education.
And if we move into talkingabout strong leadership in the
work that you're leading, I wantto talk about or, if we can,
about strong leadership andmeaningful conversations, which
were absolutely they were reallycrucial in the 2019-2020
(05:05):
bushfires here in Australia, andthat is reflecting nearly five
years ago now, or even longerfive, six years ago and you
supported educational leadersafter the fires, during the
recovery phase.
Annette, could you share whatyou witnessed in terms of the
emotional and the professionaltoll that it took on leaders and
(05:27):
communities?
Annette Gray (05:29):
Yeah, sure, and let me sort of preface it with
when it happened.
So you know, 2019-20 were thebushfires and a lot of schools
got impacted in rural and remoteareas and there was a wonderful
project that I think it wasCathy Powson in the department
(05:50):
actually led, which was theresponse how are we going to
support these schools who havebeen really impacted and their
communities have been impactedin big ways?
So this was sort of 18 monthslater and what they were
noticing and Cathy brought me into do this work with two of my
(06:12):
other executive coaches thatwork with me to support 50
schools that were impacted in atraumatic way during the
bushfires in a traumatic way,you know, during the bushfires
and so what we found theirresponse, these principles that
we worked with and basicallywhat we did.
(06:32):
It was a wellbeing sort ofcoaching project and so we
helped those principles have asounding board, someone neutral
that wasn't in the department,to actually vent, download, go.
I'm actually exhausted.
I've had 18 months ofsupporting my community and it
(06:55):
ended up.
The principals were the onesthat supported the community
broader than the school, thecommunity broader than the
school.
And then the other aspect isthey had to rebuild physically
their schools that were burntdown, so the principal was
holding everything together andthey were just incredibly
(07:16):
exhausted.
So we were really focused ontheir wellbeing and helping them
understand what does fullyflourishing look like for a
leader, and we use the GlobalLeadership Wellbeing Survey,
which is a beautiful survey thatmarries leadership and
(07:38):
wellbeing, so that people canit's a self-assessment so they
can understand where am Ithriving and where needs some
attention.
So this is what this coachingwas about was looking at you
know, where have I neglected,given the impact of leading the
(08:01):
support in the school andoutside of the school.
What have I neglected in my ownwellbeing?
And they could talk reallyopenly and honestly because it
was with someone external to thedepartment.
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Drew J (09:34):
Yeah, yeah, I heard exhaustion.
What were the other biggestchallenges leaders faced in
their communities you mentioned?
Obviously they had to supporttheir staff.
They had to rebuild a communityliterally in front of them and
bring the team.
That alone is so manychallenges.
(09:59):
Were there any other challengesthat even caught you off guard?
Annette Gray (10:09):
there any other challenges that even caught you
off guard.
One principle that I recall wassharing it was all the
decision-making that had to bemade, and it got to the point of
rebuilding physically theschool.
And so they had builders askingthem questions all the time,
the project manager asking themquestions all the time, and it's
like they just felt bombardedwith I haven't got the energy to
(10:35):
make any more decisions.
Can someone take that part awayfrom me, because I'm just
getting here each day?
And this particular principalwhen I was coaching him, floods
happened, so he had the doublewhammy of the impact of the
fires and the floods and he saidI just need some support for
(11:00):
someone to just take this pieceaway from me, so I can focus on
the well-being of my teachers,my team.
Drew J (11:10):
And in your role what?
As a coach, as an expert coach,what advice could you give to
that scenario?
For that principal, who isobviously in that scenario, that
would be hard for you as well,or the executive team that you
were leading, to give advice.
Was there any advice, or isthat a journey that they have to
(11:34):
discover themselves?
Annette Gray (11:38):
Generally as a coach, that's our last port of
call is giving advice.
It's more about what is it youwant?
What would make this better?
How would you know you'remaking progress and you're
feeling like you're in a betterplace?
What would that look like?
Rather than jumping straight inand telling them, because
(12:00):
they're the experts in theirworld, they know what's going to
work in their context.
So you end up being more aguide on the side rather than
sage on the stage.
I've got an example lots ofexamples recently where I've
reached out for a bit ofbusiness coaching and what I've
(12:20):
noticed every single one hasgone.
This is what you need to do,rather than what have you tried?
What's worked already, youknowing your business, what's
work that we can build upon,that you know, and honoring all
the effort I've made, ratherthan just going into great
(12:41):
advice giving and I think that'swhat gets people's backs up
when you have no understandingtheir contest and go.
What you should do is X, y, z.
So our role wasn't about tellingpeople what to do, because they
know what's best for them, butit's bringing it out of them.
And it's more asking, lesstelling, bringing it out of them
(13:06):
.
And it's more asking, lesstelling and they appreciated
that because they actuallyappreciated being noticed for
what they had tried, what hadworked, the amazing support that
they gave the community,because there was a lot of
trauma in the community.
You know now, parents or familymembers were taking their lives
.
So the principle was in thefiring line for that of like,
(13:30):
how am I going to support youknow that when I'm absolutely
drained back into a better placein terms of their own wellbeing
and who are in their circle ofinfluence that can actually
(13:50):
support them, when they'retrying to support everyone else,
Wow, wow.
Drew J (13:58):
So many powerful ways in which we could go in this
conversation.
I guess how did you see thatplay out after the fires and
that?
Were there, for example, anyconversations that help people
heal and build trust or regainhope?
Annette Gray (14:15):
I think what was most beneficial is get the
conversation right.
So when someone is sharingtheir struggles or what they're
not coping with, don't judge it,just be there.
And sometimes it's just aboutlistening and just about helping
(14:38):
them work out what's going tobe best for them.
So I heard amazing stories ofprincipals doing this so well
with their staff and they didn'trealize that.
So we were holding up themirror to you know, this is
really working, what you'redoing, so how can you create
(14:59):
more of that?
Drew J (15:02):
Yeah.
So if we move into that spaceof the lessons for educational
leaders I heard many educationalleaders that they're listening
to our conversation.
They might feel still theeffects of those fires or other
crises, like the pandemic,floods or community trauma or
other matters.
For leaders navigating thosechallenges, how can adopting a
(15:25):
coach-like approach help them tosupport their staff and
communities?
Annette Gray (15:38):
Work, with people sitting down with them for an
hour or so.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about all theincidental conversations of
someone like I have a daughterwho's a teacher and she'll share
with me the challenges that shehas at the moment and the
(15:59):
behavior challenges.
She has a year, one class andthe behavior challenges that are
just so extreme.
If I was her leader at school,her AP or principal, hear it out
, not go into immediately go.
(16:20):
Oh well, you need to do thisBecause she had an experience of
that.
She worked in London for a yearand she had an experience of
again, a really tricky cohortand both examples were children
that were impacted from COVIDand they didn't have preschool
years, they didn't socializewith other children, so this was
(16:43):
impacting their behavior.
But the way that leaders inLondon dealt with it was just
went.
Here are all the strategiesthat you need to apply and she's
going well.
I tried that, I've tried that,I tried that and I also tried
that.
So it wasn't honoring.
She's a damn good teacher,she's damn good at behavior
(17:07):
management.
But they came in advice giving.
So coach-like is about findingout what is working with and
what they want.
So I use this model solutionfocus and it's a great way to
coach and navigate to.
(17:28):
So what do you want from thisconversation, drew?
What would be your best hopesfrom us talking now?
Yeah, and then what differencewould that make if you're able
to do that?
So for my daughter?
I have got eight differentbehavior issues in my class.
There's a lot of ADHD there's,you know, there's on the
(17:53):
spectrum.
Like I need support in how do Imanage this group of children
when I'm exhausted and I don'tknow what to try.
I've tried this, but I reallywant support from you to how do
I navigate this class.
I tend to do that for her athome, but her and her immediate
(18:21):
super AP is wonderful at thisand is being coached, like here,
but didn't happen in London.
So I got the calls from Londonaround.
They're giving me a hard timebecause I'm not keeping my book
work really neat.
Keeping my book work reallyneat and it seemed really
(18:43):
punitive what the focus was onbook work rather than she's
struggling with managing allthese behavior issues.
So I think it's allowing peopleto be open and honest.
If here's what's going on for me, can you partner with me to
work out what I need to do, butyou don't need to be the expert.
I can actually go away and doit because you can't shadow me.
(19:03):
But help me work through it.
Help me look at what I'm aimingfor here.
What would be good enough andhave I had any instances of that
already?
So we're not delving into whythe behavior issues.
We're delving into what can youdo about it, yeah, and what
(19:23):
would work in your classroom tobe able to do it.
And so if all you know and theschools who do this really well,
who have created a coachingculture, that have conversations
like this all the time, theseincidental quick, I've only got
five minutes, but gosh, thatlesson was so hard and I don't
(19:45):
know how to get myself back up,to get back in there If they can
have those incidentalconversations with their leader
or even a buddy, because buddieswork as well to support them.
I just need to download ofwhat's going on here.
So I've rambled a bit in termsof the answer to the question no
(20:06):
.
Drew J (20:06):
No, it's really intriguing to listen to in terms
of that mindset and I didn'twant to interject because of the
people curious to say, forexample, what would a busy
principal what's one smallchange I'm thinking they could
make tomorrow that might helptheir team feel more supported
(20:27):
in that?
Annette Gray (20:30):
I think the key thing is being present.
So if now's not a good time,when would be?
Yeah, so that I really want tofocus on what you're saying.
But I've got these other fivethings I'm trying to juggle at
the moment.
So when can we reconnect?
(20:52):
And I really want to hearwhat's happening for you and
let's make that time, whetherit's after school, you know, for
10 minutes after school orwhatever.
So, being mindful in the moment,are you able to be present
enough, if not reschedule foranother time?
(21:12):
I think just that, so you canbe there and listen really well.
And we're not always in thatspace.
I'm not always in that space asa coach and we can't be, we
can't be that active listenerand showing empathy 100% of the
time.
So we have to sort of get readyto go into that conversation.
(21:33):
But that can still happen.
Walking down I'm going onplayground duty walking down
five-minute conversation as Iget to my playground.
That can still work.
So that's one thing.
The second is listen to thefeedback that you're hearing
from people, because generally,even if it's the one that most
(21:55):
complains, they want somethingto be different.
So how do you help them getclarity around what they want to
be different so they can be inthe driver's seat of helping
move that forward rather thanjust be the complainer of.
You have to sort this out.
Drew J (22:14):
Yeah, everyone wants to be heard and the skill of being
a leader is ensuring thateveryone is feeling they're
heard.
Really good, practical.
That's a very practical, easy.
I want to pay attention.
But can we do this at a certainparticular time so that you're
showing that the conversation isimportant enough to make sure
(22:34):
that you have that time, so it'sacknowledging that.
So that's a really nice tip.
So you're not actually you'renot diverting it, but you're
actually putting a strategy inplace so you're not constantly
balancing all of these differentand you think about how many
conversations a leader orprincipal would have in a day
and if they're not fully present, then it could spiral
(22:58):
completely in another way if theresponder doesn't feel heard.
Annette Gray (23:02):
Exactly and how do I bring my best self, best
version of me, to thisconversation?
And it would work with parentsas well.
You know that you get thedrop-in parent to have you got
five minutes, to have you gotfive minutes.
(23:23):
Sometimes we have to put someboundaries around.
Actually, I'm not in the bestplace to have this conversation.
I love this analogy, drew.
It's called how do we meet atthe gate?
So it's relationships are likea paddock You're on one side,
I'm on the other, like ourscreen.
So the gate is where ourscreens meet.
(23:44):
So I'm responsible for mypaddock, you're responsible for
your paddock, and we only canask people to meet at the gate.
If I dive through the gate andtry and get you to have my view
of the world, I'm bringing youinto my side of the paddock.
So how do we help others?
(24:05):
We have all the difficult teammembers who will drive through
the gate and go.
You need to look after this.
You need to do something betterabout this.
Actually, no, how do we keepthe boundaries there around?
Well, what is it you want?
What would make a differencehere?
I've heard this a few times, soI really want to be supportive
(24:34):
of what you want.
So what would you see isrequired in this situation?
Drew J (24:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely no-transcript.
Annette Gray (25:09):
I think what I've noticed over the years and more
and more is being talked aboutin the theory around leadership
and leadership development isthat self-awareness is the key
skill of a leader andself-leadership.
So that means there are anumber of qualities that enable
(25:29):
us to be a really good leaderand unfortunately we haven't got
great world leaders who aremodeling this, world leaders who
are modeling this.
But I will mention JacindaArdern.
Her latest book, a DifferentKind of Power, is a wonderful
(25:55):
memoir of what we're aiming fornow in terms of the leadership
qualities.
She had kindness as theleadership quality that she
wanted to always instill in hertime as Prime Minister and if
you think back, she had threemajor events in her first year
of being Prime Minister.
(26:16):
She had the Muslim massacre inthe mosque, she had COVID and
then there was some I can'tremember the third, oh, the
volcano and all the touriststhat were stuck on it.
So three pretty major eventsand she said I've got to show
(26:38):
kindness to these people in thiscommunity.
So there was a heightened levelof self-awareness that Jacinta
Ardern modeled and I think thatthat is for all of us and
particularly around.
We've got to lean into reallychallenging and difficult
conversations.
(26:59):
If we want cultures in schoolsto be fully thriving, we've got
to do that direct managementpiece, which is, I've got to
have a conversation with theones who aren't performing,
because the last 20 years I'vebeen back in schools after
having a 10-year gap, and what Inoticed is, as a sector, what
(27:29):
happens is we have a passiveapproach to having direct
conversations and then we leaveit, leave it, leave it until we
go out battling and going.
You've got to change and bequite oppositional.
What we want to do is have itas part of the culture of the
schools.
(27:49):
So we are going to call outbehavior that's not aligned to
the kind of school we want to be, because what I noticed is in
people's careers, people wouldmove from school to school to
school and never being calledout on that behavior that
(28:10):
everyone found challenging.
So we're going to a place nowof and the department have
developed this direct managementprinciples, philosophy, sort of
thing, and looking at threethings that will make it
important to have this cultureof direct management, because
(28:33):
some people go to the extreme.
When I want to have aconversation, they go oh, you're
bullying me.
Well, actually, no, I'm justholding you accountable to doing
your role at a really good,effective level.
Drew J (28:49):
Can I pick up on that?
That's a very interesting pointthat you've raised, because
that is a I think that's a realfear in leaders at the moment of
the backlash, of having thetough conversation, so to speak,
or the difficult conversation,whatever we may call it.
You're calling out behavior,you're not calling out the
(29:12):
individual and there's a cleardifference of line there.
Difference of line there, butin terms of how that is
interpreted, is the key takeawayto support the person.
That's ultimately what you'retrying to do to support the
person, calling out the behavior, to stop that behavior which is
inhibiting their performance,so to speak, or other people's
(29:35):
performance, or the culture orthe climate in their space.
So it's a delicate act and Iguess, in terms of the work
you're leading, is that a bigpart of the work that you're
leading to help leaders throughthat space?
Annette Gray (29:56):
Yes, definitely, because I find across all
sectors it's an Australiancultural thing.
We haven't had good role modelsto how to have the difficult
conversation and maintain therelationship.
So what people tend to do avoidit, avoid it, avoid it and then
(30:18):
have to really do somethingabout it.
So it's a big step to dosomething about it, rather than
and what I love about what thedocument says that the
department have put up aboutchanging the culture around
direct management is how do yoube proactive?
So what I love about a schoolI've worked with in Nowra they
(30:44):
have actually been very explicitaround.
We want a school culture likethis which we're going to be
constructive, we're going to becoach-like, we're going to be
clear on what is important inthis school.
So there's this proactive partthat they've set up, that and
we're going to have difficultconversations when things
(31:07):
mightn't be working, but our aimis to help you move forward on
that and to work with you tocoach you to actually develop in
that area.
So they've been very explicitof what kind of culture they
want to create and they'vecalled that being blue.
And being blue is not downbeing blue, being blue is around
(31:28):
.
This tool I use a lot, which isa 360 degree feedback tool
around someone's approach toleadership and is it
constructive, is itpassive-aggressive, or is it
passive-defensive oraggressive-defensive?
So we all have triggers in howwe respond.
(31:51):
If someone's going to sit downand have a conversation of how
I've performed, and so some ofus go green and avoid or go,
okay, I'll do whatever you say.
Some want to battle it out andgo.
I don't agree with that andothers are really constructive,
(32:12):
like the Jacinta Ardern's in theworld.
She works with people, not,whereas an aggressive way of
being is I'm in power.
I'll tell you how things aredone.
Yep, there's no negotiatinghere.
This is I'm just going to tellyou because I've got the power,
Whereas the passive, they giveaway their power and well,
(32:35):
that's what the departmentpolicy says, so I have to follow
that, you know.
So it's how do you actuallywork with people?
And I think one of the keyskills for leaders, especially
principals and I've seen somegood ones do this well, they
manage up well and go.
Yes, we are going to implementthat.
(32:57):
However, this part is reallyimportant at the moment, so I
will get to that when we'veaddressed this, because, in our
context, this is what the schoolcommunity needs the most at the
moment, and the ones that didit well would not just be
compliant, not just be compliant, they would be compliant but
(33:19):
after looking at well, what'sour context, how can we bring
this concept in or bring thisnew strategy in, rather than
being punitive and just going toteachers?
You just need to do this.
You just need to follow these10 steps and the teachers are
going.
Another thing how are we?
(33:39):
We going to integrate it, butin a respectful way.
So, having difficultconversations, keeping people
accountable, focusing onpeople's well-being and leading
that as a principle that I'mdoing, the things I need for me
to have my best version ofmyself show up, yeah, and often
(34:03):
what I see is the ones thataren't coping, the ones that are
new to the role.
They will work around the clockand they don't have a life
outside of being a principal.
So, well-being really importantTime to develop people and
don't make this onerous.
(34:24):
It's incidental conversationsthat can help people move
forward.
And I think the last because Ilisted about six challenges, and
the last one is things areambiguous at the moment.
Things are complex.
The world is complex at themoment.
(34:44):
The impact of climate changehow do we be more sustainable,
like all of the things that wewere given before it's changing.
So how, as a leader of a school, how do I be open to managing
through ambiguity and I'm notgoing to have all the answers,
(35:06):
but we're going to work togetherto work it out as we go forward
.
Yeah.
Drew J (35:13):
Thank you, you, you, you , you, you, you, you, you, you,
(35:50):
you you you, you, you, you.
Annette Gray (35:57):
But no, for me, I will get triggered if someone
tries to prove their view isright and I'll want to battle it
out with them.
So now I know that.
I've got to take a deep breathand I've got to go okay stop
being judgmental, turn thatvolume down on that trigger.
(36:17):
And how can I lean into theconversation?
Yeah, because one of the thingsI like to do is be
non-judgmental.
Sorry you go I was just going tosay, one of the things I like
to pride myself on is beingnon-judgmental.
But if someone's doing thisthat triggers me and I me and
(36:39):
I'm judgmental and it's like notthe person I want to be, you
know.
So how do I do thisself-leadership around?
What is it I need right now?
Okay, I need to breathe.
I need to redirect thisconversation to another time
when I'm better equipped to beable to do it.
So I often say leadership is abit like parenting.
(37:01):
Leadership.
Yeah, we trigger that in peoplewhen we're a leader.
They want to feel valued, theywant to be supported, they want
a scene for their uniqueness.
So how do we do that forourself is what is crucial.
So I think I came across this18 months ago, at the end of
(37:58):
2023.
I was lucky enough to go toAntarctica with a women in
leadership program and duringthose 21 days in Antarctica, I
learned a lot about what'scalled the inner development
goals.
It's called the InnerDevelopment Goals and I'm not
(38:22):
sure if many of your listenerswill be aware of.
There's 15 sustainability goalsthat were brought into the
Paris Agreement in 2015, whichyou know focusing on climate
change and leading that, havingdiversity, equal pay.
There's a whole lot of things.
This will make us moresustainable world if everyone
focused on this.
(38:43):
And one of the key thingsaround these inner development
goals is self-awareness.
How do we create moreconsciousness in the world?
But then that comes back to inleadership.
How do we create moreself-awareness in leaders so
(39:05):
they then can influence thechange going forward?
And I see that happens throughcoaching and not necessarily
individual leadership coaching.
I see it more in the shift inleadership.
Development is more around groupcoaching Because of the
complexities and ambiguitiesthat we're facing.
(39:25):
There's no rule book.
So bringing I'm doing this withleaders, where I'm bringing 10
leaders together, either in thesame context or with schools, it
can be a whole 10 principalsand we're going to work on each
other's leadership developmentbased on what others are doing,
(39:47):
and so you're opening thatawareness around.
Hey, there's a different way ofdoing that, whereas if we just
keep it at individual coaching,people tell themselves stories
and believe those stories, andsometimes it's not accurate.
So this group coaching approachactually helps people get
(40:10):
perspective.
Actually, there's a multipleother ways of doing it.
Had you tried this before?
So it's working on their ownleadership development, but with
others.
So gone are the days that we candefine a leader's role based on
these competencies, because nohuman has all of them.
(40:31):
We have spikes, we have thingsthat we're really good at and
things that we're not so good at.
So the concept is complementaryleadership, and this is what
principals can do with theirexecutive team, with anyone else
who's in a leadership role,who's great at that, and that we
(40:52):
can really delegate them to dothat.
But I'll support you on theside, but you don't have to do
everything, and that's what thisgroup coaching does.
We start with a tool, whetherit's the wellbeing
self-assessment or the it'scalled the lifestyles imagery,
(41:12):
and that's the one that looks atyour constructive styles, your
passive styles and youraggressive, defensive styles.
So it starts withself-awareness.
So where am I currently at,what's working for me and what
behavior have I really got toput some focus on, learn and see
what others are doing around it.
(41:33):
So they come in to the groupcoaching after an individual
feedback around their results,which is done in private, they
come into the rest of the groupand the group keeps them
accountable around their projectof what they're going to change
in their leadership, and thatgoes over six months.
Drew J (41:52):
Yeah, yeah, terrific.
So in terms of you've alludedto the programs that you, could
you tell us a little bit furtherabout the programs that you
have?
I see you have leading oryou've got foundations, leading
coaching conversations.
You've got mentoring programs.
You've got group coaching.
How might educational leadersbenefit from engaging in
(42:14):
programs like yours, fromengaging in?
Annette Gray (42:20):
programs like yours.
Sure, well, I like to takepeople on a leadership journey,
and the first place isfoundations.
How do you have coach-likeconversations?
And so it's in your toolkit ofhow do I do this, and the key
part of that is how do I be moresolution-focused in the way I
lead?
So it's not about some peopleget confused that being
(42:43):
solution-focused is come to mewith your solutions, don't come
to me with problems.
That's not it at all.
It's about how do we co-createthe solution based on what
you've tried already and basedon what you've tried already and
based on what you want.
So I'm going to be a co-creatorwith you of these solutions,
rather than tell you what to door expect you to go away and
(43:07):
think about what you need to do.
So this is, get the basics ofhow to have effective coaching.
Conversations is the first, andthat's when the choice after
that is then doing groupcoaching, because I want people
to have the foundations of howdo you need to be with others.
(43:27):
Yeah, so you need to be open,curious, interested, have a
growth mindset, be solutionfocused.
So they're the foundations tothen, if you come into group
coaching and you're supportingothers to grow and learn in that
cohort, which is 10, and wemeet for two hours every month
(43:48):
for six months and then finallyfor the elite athletes of the
leadership world.
Then I'll work with peopleone-to-one.
But I want those foundationsand the group coaching
experience because I think whenyou're coming into individual
coaching you really want to bethere and you really want to be
(44:12):
those elite athletes in theprincipal world.
They really want to make adifference and that's where the
one-to-one support comes in.
After they've opened their eyesto other approaches, whatever
others done, is that all makingsense?
Drew J (44:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm just taking it all inthinking from a principal
perspective of all the differentoptions of where to start with
this journey.
I'm curious about coaching, I'mthinking about it.
Where do I start, Where's thejourney?
And we'll put all of those notesand links into our showcase
notes as well, for our listenersas well, for interested in
(44:53):
terms of it's a matter of wheredo I start and where do I want
to go, which is part of thescaffolding I suspect in the
coaching journey that you'lllead our leaders through, and
what I heard was the potentialof accountability with the group
coaching and potentially evenfrom other sectors, which is not
(45:14):
necessarily a bad thing as wellto learn from others and hear
about, which gives people it'sactually sometimes refreshing as
well to hear from the othersectors of their challenges and
how they would deal withwhatever the challenges they're
dealing with as leaders as well.
Yeah, and then moving into, asyou said at the end, that elite
(45:38):
athlete I really love that,really great thinking.
You don't think of yourself forprincipals, as elite athletes,
but they really to be highperformers, they really need to
think like an elite athlete.
Annette Gray (45:55):
Yes, exactly.
And now I didn't mention mymentoring program, which is a,
you know it's an easy way to getinto the concepts and tools and
skills that I provide to people, which is a self-paced
mentoring made easy program.
And that's not just for leaders, that's of people who are
(46:16):
mentoring, mentoring who want tobe a better mentor.
Because what I notice aboutpeople are told you're a mentor
but never given any skilldevelopment of what would be a
good way of doing this.
People always revert to I'mgoing to download all my wisdom
and tell you how it's been forme, rather than actually you can
(46:37):
be coach-like in your mentoringas well.
So that's an easy way to startif you want some people to
develop these skills in yourschool around how to be a better
mentor.
Drew J (46:52):
Yeah, such important to go the default mentor process.
You're a mentor whether youwant to or not, but in terms of
the skill set to be able to dothat is a complete skill set in
itself to be able to.
So what I've heard is you haveresources or a course that
participants who are in thatsituation can go and access
(47:13):
through your website yes, yes,and it's all-paced so they can
do it in their own time.
Annette Gray (47:19):
And what I've also made it it's four hours of
content and then four hours ofpractice with a real mentor a
mentee, sorry and then come backand reflect on it.
So it's like I'm the coach onthe side, that they come back in
and go okay, how did I do whatseemed to work?
(47:39):
But it's all been recorded,it's all video content and
exercises and activities to do.
Drew J (47:49):
Yeah, fabulous, such a broad range there, annette.
Terrific in terms of theoverview that we've heard.
Now let's get into some quickfire rounds we do with our
guests to finish off.
It's been a really greatconversation with you.
Let's start with oneconversation that changed your
life.
Annette Gray (48:10):
I've actually thought of two, okay, okay, one
is the first leader.
I had no second actually leaderI had after I left teaching and
went into the corporate world,into learning and development,
and I became part of the humanresource organizational
(48:32):
development team and this leaderit wasn't a I suppose it was a
series of conversations, butwhat I noticed it was like
you're doing things different.
I've never experienced a leaderdoing what you're doing.
He was being coached like andthis was in the 1990s and it was
(48:54):
before coaching as a professioncame into Australia, and it was
before coaching as a professioncame into Australia and he had
up on his whiteboard GROW, whichis the GROW model, and I was
curious around how he wasleading.
So it got me intrigued so much.
My career path went down theleadership development path
(49:17):
because I went, wow, he's doingit well, but I'm not experienced
others doing it like that.
So it was a series of justworking and this guy was not old
like he was 35 at the time buthe just was this incredible way
of being with others and I feellike I did some of my best work
(49:39):
at that time because the way hewas leading me.
So that's one, and then theother happened in 2011.
And that was around learningsolution focus and my way of
being.
The way I live my life, the wayI teach people to coach, is all
(50:02):
about solution focus, and I'mnow connected to a worldwide
network of solution focuspractitioners who have really
influenced the way I coach, theway I facilitate, the way I be
in my life.
(50:25):
It was a previous organization Iwork for.
He was the managing director.
He said I've come across thisapproach and I think there's
something in it.
And he was right.
There was something in it.
So three of us from thatorganization, senior leaders did
a 16-week Solution Focus onlineprogram with the University of
(50:50):
Wisconsin and Mark McGurk, who'sa leading voice thought leader
in Solution Focus.
That brought it from thetherapy world into the
organisational world.
So, yeah, it was him sayingthere's something in this One.
(51:20):
I've got four, okay.
The first one would be coachinga to z, and it's by Haesun Moon
.
Haesun is a communicationscientist from Toronto in Canada
(51:45):
.
If they read this book,coaching A to Z, they will get
what solution-focused is and getthe basics of what coaching is.
The second one is called LovePlus Work and it's by a guy
called Marcus Buckingham, andMarcus Buckingham, used to work
(52:06):
for Gallup organization and thathe researched what 35,000
leaders and managers around theworld did.
Well, this book is around how doyou help people bring out their
uniqueness and how do you getthem to love the work that
(52:26):
they're doing and I think thisis a game changer for leaders in
schools but also other settings.
Around what questions?
There's only four that I needto ask weekly with people to
help them find their ownuniqueness so they love what
they do.
It's a brilliant book, and thenthere's two others.
(52:51):
The third one is how to Workwith Almost Anyone, and it's a
guy called MichaelBungay-Stanier.
He wrote the Coaching Habit,but this book is really good at
giving practical things you cando.
That sets up relationships wellin your work context.
(53:13):
So, in this situation at schools, what are the things that we
need to have a conversationabout?
When you first come to thisschool, yep, or when you're new
as a principal in a school, howdo you want to work with people?
But it's a negotiation, yeah,of how we best work together.
So for you, drew, you know ifI'm working with you.
(53:35):
You know how do you want me tobe as your leader.
What's going to work best foryou.
I need autonomy or I need somespace, but I need to check in
with you once a week or everytwo weeks, and that's what that
original leader did back in the90s.
He asked us how regularly do weneed to meet?
(53:58):
Well, I said probably onlyevery three weeks, but when my
project gets close to thedeadline, I need weekly
conversation, one-to-ones, withyou.
So that's what he was doing.
What Michael Bungay-Staniersays is about how to work with
almost anyone.
It's a negotiation that youneed to sit down and work out.
(54:18):
How do you best work?
What do you need from me asyour leader to bring out your
best?
And then the fourth sorry iscalled no Bad Parts.
No Bad Parts is the guy thatdeveloped internal family
systems.
His name's Richard Schwartz.
Guy that developed internalfamily systems, his name's
(54:42):
Richard Schwartz, and this iswhere the self-awareness piece
comes in, for leaders Know yourtriggers.
And he's basically saying wehave an internal family of
little children that are insideus and they get triggered at
certain points when people saycertain things to us.
That is a bit like how a parentdid, or a first teacher or
first boss did, and we gettriggered.
So how can I show somecompassion to that part of me,
(55:08):
so I can then be in my bestversion of me going forward.
So if principals and leaders inschools learn that for
themselves, they're more likelythen to be able to show be calm
compassion to others when theyget triggered.
So that's where theself-awareness piece comes.
(55:29):
So sorry one, thank you.
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,
okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,
(55:56):
okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,
okay.
Well, it took me a while tothink about this, but I went
walking with my dog this morningand went ah, that's it, I know
what it is it's going.
I now moved six months ago.
I moved closer to the beach, somy happy place is seeing the
(56:20):
water.
So I'll often take my dog for awalk later in the day, as well
as sometimes in the morning, andseeing that ocean gives me
perspective, you know.
So, whatever, getting out innature is now well researched
around.
It's important that we all getour they call it the green
(56:43):
prescription.
You know how do you get out innature more, and that's how I do
it at the end of the day.
That's one aspect, and theother is I try and sit in
silence.
You know you don't have tonecessarily meditate, but I do.
That's a morning routine I have.
But even just sitting, closingyour eyes for five minutes and
(57:05):
going within gets things intoperspective as well.
Drew J (57:09):
So having that silent space, Really practical advice
for people listening going yeah,how?
When was the last time that youdid spend five minutes in in
absolute silence?
And it's amazing when you dothat, annette, isn't it?
How many thoughts can passthrough that process, and I
(57:35):
guess that's part of thatprocessing of information that
we do all the time that comesthrough this as well.
Really practical, getting intonature and five minutes.
So that's a challenge for ourlisteners.
And I guess the last question Ihave is one piece of advice for
leaders facing uncertainty.
Annette Gray (57:57):
Don't try and solve it.
You know.
Work with others to actuallythink about what.
How do we make sense of thisuncertainty and then, in our
context, what's something smallwe can do to move forward on it.
Don't try and be the fountainof all knowledge and have to
(58:21):
work out on your own, or withjust your you know deputy or AP
around, what you're going to do.
Use your people.
You've got adults working withyou who are very capable outside
of work and you know, know,manage their lives.
Utilize their resourcefulness,because they often have a
(58:42):
different take um.
So yeah, spread, collaboratewith others to work it out yeah,
terrific, very practical.
Drew J (58:55):
thank you you for sharing that overview of all of
those gems that you shared withus today.
Look, Annette, it's a pleasureto have you on our podcast.
The critical role you play withsupporting leaders I can hear
that in terms of from the onsetof the people that you're
surrounded by are educators.
(59:16):
The work you've led, which Iheard today, especially the
recovery phase of the BlackSummer fires, and for anyone who
wants to learn more, pleasevisit annettegraycomau or check
out Annette's YouTube channel atAnnette Gray Consulting, and
there's an incredible amount ofwisdom there for educational
leaders or anyone passionateabout leading people.
(59:40):
Well, annette, thank you againfor your time and joining us
today.
Absolutely Thank you.
Welcome back to Professional Learning's, the New
South Wales PPA EducationalLeadership Podcast.
It's great to have your company.
This podcast aligns to thevalues of the New South Wales
Primary Principals Association.
That is, the values ofprincipal wellbeing, principals
as lead learners, as well assupporting principals to lead
(00:22):
school operations.
If you enjoy this podcast,don't forget to subscribe for
further updates.
Now let's get into today'slatest episode.
I'm honoured to speak withsomeone whose life work is
helping leaders navigate notonly everyday challenges, but
also some of the toughestmoments imaginable.
My guest today is Annette Gray,leadership coach, facilitator
(00:50):
and mentor, whose mission is toempower leaders to transform
conversations and create morehuman, centered and inclusive
cultures.
From starting as a high schoolteacher to leading complex
culture changes projects acrossindustries, annette insights
resonates deeply with anyoneleading people through change
and challenge.
And for those of us ineducation, annette's work
(01:12):
supporting educational leadersin the recovery phase after the
devastating Black Summerbushfires of 2019 and 20 is a
powerful example of how coachingand leadership conversations
can be a lifeline in times ofcrisis.
With that, annette, a welcometo our podcast.
Great to have you with us.
Annette Gray (01:30):
Thank you so much, Drew.
I look forward to theconversation with you today.
Drew J (01:36):
Yeah, as am I, and let's well, let's start.
For the audience who may notknow you, let's start at the
beginning.
You grew up in Sydney, spentsome time, as I've, done my
research in the Philippines as achild and eventually found
yourself teaching in highschools.
How did those early experiencesshape your love for learning,
(01:59):
teaching and, ultimately,coaching Annette?
Annette Gray (02:04):
I think you know when I reflected on it you know
it's interesting I grew up withfour brothers and, yes, we did
live in the Philippines for fiveyears because my dad worked for
Qantas.
And what we always talk aboutat any of the family events you
know funerals, birthdays,whatever is what a profound
(02:25):
impact our time in thePhilippines had.
So I was early years ofschooling that I started my
schooling in the Philippines andthen only went.
I was seven when I came back.
So you know it was veryformative years.
But what it opened up for me isthis acceptance of diversity
(02:48):
and inclusion, and that is mypassion now.
How do we create workplaces,schools that are inclusive,
human-centred and diverse andhonouring the difference?
And that stuck with me.
And I think the other thing thatstuck with me in my childhood
(03:08):
when I reflect on it, my momwanted to be a teacher but
circumstances didn't allow herto go into teaching.
But she was a Sunday schoolteacher.
And then, when I look at myfamily, that so much influence
of teaching is in my family mydaughter's a teacher.
(03:31):
I was a teacher, I still teachadults.
Three nieces are teachers.
Like all from my brothers andmy family, we've influenced
people to go into education.
My two sister-in-laws areteachers and my five closest
friends I had from TeachersCollege, so it's such a strong
(03:53):
influence about this love oflearning and continuing to grow
and that's what I try and workwith leaders on.
There needs to be this opennessto change, to learn to navigate
.
You know we are now inambiguous times, so this is
where being open to look atthings differently, ai is having
(04:16):
such a big impact.
So that's a long answer to youknow the influences from the
past.
Drew J (04:22):
Oh well, it gives us a really great insight into your
background of who Annette Grayis, and also the alignment, as
you've clearly outlined, thealignment with educators as well
.
All of the people in yourclosest circle are educators.
So, education what I'm hearingreally resonates for you and you
(04:43):
can see the power of educationand the impact of education.
And if we move into talkingabout strong leadership in the
work that you're leading, I wantto talk about or, if we can,
about strong leadership andmeaningful conversations, which
were absolutely they were reallycrucial in the 2019-2020
(05:05):
bushfires here in Australia, andthat is reflecting nearly five
years ago now, or even longerfive, six years ago and you
supported educational leadersafter the fires, during the
recovery phase.
Annette, could you share whatyou witnessed in terms of the
emotional and the professionaltoll that it took on leaders and
(05:27):
communities?
Annette Gray (05:29):
Yeah, sure, and let me sort of preface it with
when it happened.
So you know, 2019-20 were thebushfires and a lot of schools
got impacted in rural and remoteareas and there was a wonderful
project that I think it wasCathy Powson in the department
(05:50):
actually led, which was theresponse how are we going to
support these schools who havebeen really impacted and their
communities have been impactedin big ways?
So this was sort of 18 monthslater and what they were
noticing and Cathy brought me into do this work with two of my
(06:12):
other executive coaches thatwork with me to support 50
schools that were impacted in atraumatic way during the
bushfires in a traumatic way,you know, during the bushfires
and so what we found theirresponse, these principles that
we worked with and basicallywhat we did.
(06:32):
It was a wellbeing sort ofcoaching project and so we
helped those principles have asounding board, someone neutral
that wasn't in the department,to actually vent, download, go.
I'm actually exhausted.
I've had 18 months ofsupporting my community and it
(06:55):
ended up.
The principals were the onesthat supported the community
broader than the school, thecommunity broader than the
school.
And then the other aspect isthey had to rebuild physically
their schools that were burntdown, so the principal was
holding everything together andthey were just incredibly
(07:16):
exhausted.
So we were really focused ontheir wellbeing and helping them
understand what does fullyflourishing look like for a
leader, and we use the GlobalLeadership Wellbeing Survey,
which is a beautiful survey thatmarries leadership and
(07:38):
wellbeing, so that people canit's a self-assessment so they
can understand where am Ithriving and where needs some
attention.
So this is what this coachingwas about was looking at you
know, where have I neglected,given the impact of leading the
(08:01):
support in the school andoutside of the school.
What have I neglected in my ownwellbeing?
And they could talk reallyopenly and honestly because it
was with someone external to thedepartment.
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Drew J (09:34):
Yeah, yeah, I heard exhaustion.
What were the other biggestchallenges leaders faced in
their communities you mentioned?
Obviously they had to supporttheir staff.
They had to rebuild a communityliterally in front of them and
bring the team.
That alone is so manychallenges.
(09:59):
Were there any other challengesthat even caught you off guard?
Annette Gray (10:09):
there any other challenges that even caught you
off guard.
One principle that I recall wassharing it was all the
decision-making that had to bemade, and it got to the point of
rebuilding physically theschool.
And so they had builders askingthem questions all the time,
the project manager asking themquestions all the time, and it's
like they just felt bombardedwith I haven't got the energy to
(10:35):
make any more decisions.
Can someone take that part awayfrom me, because I'm just
getting here each day?
And this particular principalwhen I was coaching him, floods
happened, so he had the doublewhammy of the impact of the
fires and the floods and he saidI just need some support for
(11:00):
someone to just take this pieceaway from me, so I can focus on
the well-being of my teachers,my team.
Drew J (11:10):
And in your role what?
As a coach, as an expert coach,what advice could you give to
that scenario?
For that principal, who isobviously in that scenario, that
would be hard for you as well,or the executive team that you
were leading, to give advice.
Was there any advice, or isthat a journey that they have to
(11:34):
discover themselves?
Annette Gray (11:38):
Generally as a coach, that's our last port of
call is giving advice.
It's more about what is it youwant?
What would make this better?
How would you know you'remaking progress and you're
feeling like you're in a betterplace?
What would that look like?
Rather than jumping straight inand telling them, because
(12:00):
they're the experts in theirworld, they know what's going to
work in their context.
So you end up being more aguide on the side rather than
sage on the stage.
I've got an example lots ofexamples recently where I've
reached out for a bit ofbusiness coaching and what I've
(12:20):
noticed every single one hasgone.
This is what you need to do,rather than what have you tried?
What's worked already, youknowing your business, what's
work that we can build upon,that you know, and honoring all
the effort I've made, ratherthan just going into great
(12:41):
advice giving and I think that'swhat gets people's backs up
when you have no understandingtheir contest and go.
What you should do is X, y, z.
So our role wasn't about tellingpeople what to do, because they
know what's best for them, butit's bringing it out of them.
And it's more asking, lesstelling, bringing it out of them
(13:06):
.
And it's more asking, lesstelling and they appreciated
that because they actuallyappreciated being noticed for
what they had tried, what hadworked, the amazing support that
they gave the community,because there was a lot of
trauma in the community.
You know now, parents or familymembers were taking their lives
.
So the principle was in thefiring line for that of like,
(13:30):
how am I going to support youknow that when I'm absolutely
drained back into a better placein terms of their own wellbeing
and who are in their circle ofinfluence that can actually
(13:50):
support them, when they'retrying to support everyone else,
Wow, wow.
Drew J (13:58):
So many powerful ways in which we could go in this
conversation.
I guess how did you see thatplay out after the fires and
that?
Were there, for example, anyconversations that help people
heal and build trust or regainhope?
Annette Gray (14:15):
I think what was most beneficial is get the
conversation right.
So when someone is sharingtheir struggles or what they're
not coping with, don't judge it,just be there.
And sometimes it's just aboutlistening and just about helping
(14:38):
them work out what's going tobe best for them.
So I heard amazing stories ofprincipals doing this so well
with their staff and they didn'trealize that.
So we were holding up themirror to you know, this is
really working, what you'redoing, so how can you create
(14:59):
more of that?
Drew J (15:02):
Yeah.
So if we move into that spaceof the lessons for educational
leaders I heard many educationalleaders that they're listening
to our conversation.
They might feel still theeffects of those fires or other
crises, like the pandemic,floods or community trauma or
other matters.
For leaders navigating thosechallenges, how can adopting a
(15:25):
coach-like approach help them tosupport their staff and
communities?
Annette Gray (15:38):
Work, with people sitting down with them for an
hour or so.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about all theincidental conversations of
someone like I have a daughterwho's a teacher and she'll share
with me the challenges that shehas at the moment and the
(15:59):
behavior challenges.
She has a year, one class andthe behavior challenges that are
just so extreme.
If I was her leader at school,her AP or principal, hear it out
, not go into immediately go.
(16:20):
Oh well, you need to do thisBecause she had an experience of
that.
She worked in London for a yearand she had an experience of
again, a really tricky cohortand both examples were children
that were impacted from COVIDand they didn't have preschool
years, they didn't socializewith other children, so this was
(16:43):
impacting their behavior.
But the way that leaders inLondon dealt with it was just
went.
Here are all the strategiesthat you need to apply and she's
going well.
I tried that, I've tried that,I tried that and I also tried
that.
So it wasn't honoring.
She's a damn good teacher,she's damn good at behavior
(17:07):
management.
But they came in advice giving.
So coach-like is about findingout what is working with and
what they want.
So I use this model solutionfocus and it's a great way to
coach and navigate to.
(17:28):
So what do you want from thisconversation, drew?
What would be your best hopesfrom us talking now?
Yeah, and then what differencewould that make if you're able
to do that?
So for my daughter?
I have got eight differentbehavior issues in my class.
There's a lot of ADHD there's,you know, there's on the
(17:53):
spectrum.
Like I need support in how do Imanage this group of children
when I'm exhausted and I don'tknow what to try.
I've tried this, but I reallywant support from you to how do
I navigate this class.
I tend to do that for her athome, but her and her immediate
(18:21):
super AP is wonderful at thisand is being coached, like here,
but didn't happen in London.
So I got the calls from Londonaround.
They're giving me a hard timebecause I'm not keeping my book
work really neat.
Keeping my book work reallyneat and it seemed really
(18:43):
punitive what the focus was onbook work rather than she's
struggling with managing allthese behavior issues.
So I think it's allowing peopleto be open and honest.
If here's what's going on for me, can you partner with me to
work out what I need to do, butyou don't need to be the expert.
I can actually go away and doit because you can't shadow me.
(19:03):
But help me work through it.
Help me look at what I'm aimingfor here.
What would be good enough andhave I had any instances of that
already?
So we're not delving into whythe behavior issues.
We're delving into what can youdo about it, yeah, and what
(19:23):
would work in your classroom tobe able to do it.
And so if all you know and theschools who do this really well,
who have created a coachingculture, that have conversations
like this all the time, theseincidental quick, I've only got
five minutes, but gosh, thatlesson was so hard and I don't
(19:45):
know how to get myself back up,to get back in there If they can
have those incidentalconversations with their leader
or even a buddy, because buddieswork as well to support them.
I just need to download ofwhat's going on here.
So I've rambled a bit in termsof the answer to the question no
(20:06):
.
Drew J (20:06):
No, it's really intriguing to listen to in terms
of that mindset and I didn'twant to interject because of the
people curious to say, forexample, what would a busy
principal what's one smallchange I'm thinking they could
make tomorrow that might helptheir team feel more supported
(20:27):
in that?
Annette Gray (20:30):
I think the key thing is being present.
So if now's not a good time,when would be?
Yeah, so that I really want tofocus on what you're saying.
But I've got these other fivethings I'm trying to juggle at
the moment.
So when can we reconnect?
(20:52):
And I really want to hearwhat's happening for you and
let's make that time, whetherit's after school, you know, for
10 minutes after school orwhatever.
So, being mindful in the moment,are you able to be present
enough, if not reschedule foranother time?
(21:12):
I think just that, so you canbe there and listen really well.
And we're not always in thatspace.
I'm not always in that space asa coach and we can't be, we
can't be that active listenerand showing empathy 100% of the
time.
So we have to sort of get readyto go into that conversation.
(21:33):
But that can still happen.
Walking down I'm going onplayground duty walking down
five-minute conversation as Iget to my playground.
That can still work.
So that's one thing.
The second is listen to thefeedback that you're hearing
from people, because generally,even if it's the one that most
(21:55):
complains, they want somethingto be different.
So how do you help them getclarity around what they want to
be different so they can be inthe driver's seat of helping
move that forward rather thanjust be the complainer of.
You have to sort this out.
Drew J (22:14):
Yeah, everyone wants to be heard and the skill of being
a leader is ensuring thateveryone is feeling they're
heard.
Really good, practical.
That's a very practical, easy.
I want to pay attention.
But can we do this at a certainparticular time so that you're
showing that the conversation isimportant enough to make sure
(22:34):
that you have that time, so it'sacknowledging that.
So that's a really nice tip.
So you're not actually you'renot diverting it, but you're
actually putting a strategy inplace so you're not constantly
balancing all of these differentand you think about how many
conversations a leader orprincipal would have in a day
and if they're not fully present, then it could spiral
(22:58):
completely in another way if theresponder doesn't feel heard.
Annette Gray (23:02):
Exactly and how do I bring my best self, best
version of me, to thisconversation?
And it would work with parentsas well.
You know that you get thedrop-in parent to have you got
five minutes, to have you gotfive minutes.
(23:23):
Sometimes we have to put someboundaries around.
Actually, I'm not in the bestplace to have this conversation.
I love this analogy, drew.
It's called how do we meet atthe gate?
So it's relationships are likea paddock You're on one side,
I'm on the other, like ourscreen.
So the gate is where ourscreens meet.
(23:44):
So I'm responsible for mypaddock, you're responsible for
your paddock, and we only canask people to meet at the gate.
If I dive through the gate andtry and get you to have my view
of the world, I'm bringing youinto my side of the paddock.
So how do we help others?
(24:05):
We have all the difficult teammembers who will drive through
the gate and go.
You need to look after this.
You need to do something betterabout this.
Actually, no, how do we keepthe boundaries there around?
Well, what is it you want?
What would make a differencehere?
I've heard this a few times, soI really want to be supportive
(24:34):
of what you want.
So what would you see isrequired in this situation?
Drew J (24:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely no-transcript.
Annette Gray (25:09):
I think what I've noticed over the years and more
and more is being talked aboutin the theory around leadership
and leadership development isthat self-awareness is the key
skill of a leader andself-leadership.
So that means there are anumber of qualities that enable
(25:29):
us to be a really good leaderand unfortunately we haven't got
great world leaders who aremodeling this, world leaders who
are modeling this.
But I will mention JacindaArdern.
Her latest book, a DifferentKind of Power, is a wonderful
(25:55):
memoir of what we're aiming fornow in terms of the leadership
qualities.
She had kindness as theleadership quality that she
wanted to always instill in hertime as Prime Minister and if
you think back, she had threemajor events in her first year
of being Prime Minister.
(26:16):
She had the Muslim massacre inthe mosque, she had COVID and
then there was some I can'tremember the third, oh, the
volcano and all the touriststhat were stuck on it.
So three pretty major eventsand she said I've got to show
(26:38):
kindness to these people in thiscommunity.
So there was a heightened levelof self-awareness that Jacinta
Ardern modeled and I think thatthat is for all of us and
particularly around.
We've got to lean into reallychallenging and difficult
conversations.
(26:59):
If we want cultures in schoolsto be fully thriving, we've got
to do that direct managementpiece, which is, I've got to
have a conversation with theones who aren't performing,
because the last 20 years I'vebeen back in schools after
having a 10-year gap, and what Inoticed is, as a sector, what
(27:29):
happens is we have a passiveapproach to having direct
conversations and then we leaveit, leave it, leave it until we
go out battling and going.
You've got to change and bequite oppositional.
What we want to do is have itas part of the culture of the
schools.
(27:49):
So we are going to call outbehavior that's not aligned to
the kind of school we want to be, because what I noticed is in
people's careers, people wouldmove from school to school to
school and never being calledout on that behavior that
(28:10):
everyone found challenging.
So we're going to a place nowof and the department have
developed this direct managementprinciples, philosophy, sort of
thing, and looking at threethings that will make it
important to have this cultureof direct management, because
(28:33):
some people go to the extreme.
When I want to have aconversation, they go oh, you're
bullying me.
Well, actually, no, I'm justholding you accountable to doing
your role at a really good,effective level.
Drew J (28:49):
Can I pick up on that?
That's a very interesting pointthat you've raised, because
that is a I think that's a realfear in leaders at the moment of
the backlash, of having thetough conversation, so to speak,
or the difficult conversation,whatever we may call it.
You're calling out behavior,you're not calling out the
(29:12):
individual and there's a cleardifference of line there.
Difference of line there, butin terms of how that is
interpreted, is the key takeawayto support the person.
That's ultimately what you'retrying to do to support the
person, calling out the behavior, to stop that behavior which is
inhibiting their performance,so to speak, or other people's
(29:35):
performance, or the culture orthe climate in their space.
So it's a delicate act and Iguess, in terms of the work
you're leading, is that a bigpart of the work that you're
leading to help leaders throughthat space?
Annette Gray (29:56):
Yes, definitely, because I find across all
sectors it's an Australiancultural thing.
We haven't had good role modelsto how to have the difficult
conversation and maintain therelationship.
So what people tend to do avoidit, avoid it, avoid it and then
(30:18):
have to really do somethingabout it.
So it's a big step to dosomething about it, rather than
and what I love about what thedocument says that the
department have put up aboutchanging the culture around
direct management is how do yoube proactive?
So what I love about a schoolI've worked with in Nowra they
(30:44):
have actually been very explicitaround.
We want a school culture likethis which we're going to be
constructive, we're going to becoach-like, we're going to be
clear on what is important inthis school.
So there's this proactive partthat they've set up, that and
we're going to have difficultconversations when things
(31:07):
mightn't be working, but our aimis to help you move forward on
that and to work with you tocoach you to actually develop in
that area.
So they've been very explicitof what kind of culture they
want to create and they'vecalled that being blue.
And being blue is not downbeing blue, being blue is around
(31:28):
.
This tool I use a lot, which isa 360 degree feedback tool
around someone's approach toleadership and is it
constructive, is itpassive-aggressive, or is it
passive-defensive oraggressive-defensive?
So we all have triggers in howwe respond.
(31:51):
If someone's going to sit downand have a conversation of how
I've performed, and so some ofus go green and avoid or go,
okay, I'll do whatever you say.
Some want to battle it out andgo.
I don't agree with that andothers are really constructive,
(32:12):
like the Jacinta Ardern's in theworld.
She works with people, not,whereas an aggressive way of
being is I'm in power.
I'll tell you how things aredone.
Yep, there's no negotiatinghere.
This is I'm just going to tellyou because I've got the power,
Whereas the passive, they giveaway their power and well,
(32:35):
that's what the departmentpolicy says, so I have to follow
that, you know.
So it's how do you actuallywork with people?
And I think one of the keyskills for leaders, especially
principals and I've seen somegood ones do this well, they
manage up well and go.
Yes, we are going to implementthat.
(32:57):
However, this part is reallyimportant at the moment, so I
will get to that when we'veaddressed this, because, in our
context, this is what the schoolcommunity needs the most at the
moment, and the ones that didit well would not just be
compliant, not just be compliant, they would be compliant but
(33:19):
after looking at well, what'sour context, how can we bring
this concept in or bring thisnew strategy in, rather than
being punitive and just going toteachers?
You just need to do this.
You just need to follow these10 steps and the teachers are
going.
Another thing how are we?
(33:39):
We going to integrate it, butin a respectful way.
So, having difficultconversations, keeping people
accountable, focusing onpeople's well-being and leading
that as a principle that I'mdoing, the things I need for me
to have my best version ofmyself show up, yeah, and often
(34:03):
what I see is the ones thataren't coping, the ones that are
new to the role.
They will work around the clockand they don't have a life
outside of being a principal.
So, well-being really importantTime to develop people and
don't make this onerous.
(34:24):
It's incidental conversationsthat can help people move
forward.
And I think the last because Ilisted about six challenges, and
the last one is things areambiguous at the moment.
Things are complex.
The world is complex at themoment.
(34:44):
The impact of climate changehow do we be more sustainable,
like all of the things that wewere given before it's changing.
So how, as a leader of a school, how do I be open to managing
through ambiguity and I'm notgoing to have all the answers,
(35:06):
but we're going to work togetherto work it out as we go forward
.
Yeah.
Drew J (35:13):
Thank you, you, you, you , you, you, you, you, you, you,
(35:50):
you you you, you, you, you.
Annette Gray (35:57):
But no, for me, I will get triggered if someone
tries to prove their view isright and I'll want to battle it
out with them.
So now I know that.
I've got to take a deep breathand I've got to go okay stop
being judgmental, turn thatvolume down on that trigger.
(36:17):
And how can I lean into theconversation?
Yeah, because one of the thingsI like to do is be
non-judgmental.
Sorry you go I was just going tosay, one of the things I like
to pride myself on is beingnon-judgmental.
But if someone's doing thisthat triggers me and I me and
(36:39):
I'm judgmental and it's like notthe person I want to be, you
know.
So how do I do thisself-leadership around?
What is it I need right now?
Okay, I need to breathe.
I need to redirect thisconversation to another time
when I'm better equipped to beable to do it.
So I often say leadership is abit like parenting.
(37:01):
Leadership.
Yeah, we trigger that in peoplewhen we're a leader.
They want to feel valued, theywant to be supported, they want
a scene for their uniqueness.
So how do we do that forourself is what is crucial.
So I think I came across this18 months ago, at the end of
(37:58):
2023.
I was lucky enough to go toAntarctica with a women in
leadership program and duringthose 21 days in Antarctica, I
learned a lot about what'scalled the inner development
goals.
It's called the InnerDevelopment Goals and I'm not
(38:22):
sure if many of your listenerswill be aware of.
There's 15 sustainability goalsthat were brought into the
Paris Agreement in 2015, whichyou know focusing on climate
change and leading that, havingdiversity, equal pay.
There's a whole lot of things.
This will make us moresustainable world if everyone
focused on this.
(38:43):
And one of the key thingsaround these inner development
goals is self-awareness.
How do we create moreconsciousness in the world?
But then that comes back to inleadership.
How do we create moreself-awareness in leaders so
(39:05):
they then can influence thechange going forward?
And I see that happens throughcoaching and not necessarily
individual leadership coaching.
I see it more in the shift inleadership.
Development is more around groupcoaching Because of the
complexities and ambiguitiesthat we're facing.
(39:25):
There's no rule book.
So bringing I'm doing this withleaders, where I'm bringing 10
leaders together, either in thesame context or with schools, it
can be a whole 10 principalsand we're going to work on each
other's leadership developmentbased on what others are doing,
(39:47):
and so you're opening thatawareness around.
Hey, there's a different way ofdoing that, whereas if we just
keep it at individual coaching,people tell themselves stories
and believe those stories, andsometimes it's not accurate.
So this group coaching approachactually helps people get
(40:10):
perspective.
Actually, there's a multipleother ways of doing it.
Had you tried this before?
So it's working on their ownleadership development, but with
others.
So gone are the days that we candefine a leader's role based on
these competencies, because nohuman has all of them.
(40:31):
We have spikes, we have thingsthat we're really good at and
things that we're not so good at.
So the concept is complementaryleadership, and this is what
principals can do with theirexecutive team, with anyone else
who's in a leadership role,who's great at that, and that we
(40:52):
can really delegate them to dothat.
But I'll support you on theside, but you don't have to do
everything, and that's what thisgroup coaching does.
We start with a tool, whetherit's the wellbeing
self-assessment or the it'scalled the lifestyles imagery,
(41:12):
and that's the one that looks atyour constructive styles, your
passive styles and youraggressive, defensive styles.
So it starts withself-awareness.
So where am I currently at,what's working for me and what
behavior have I really got toput some focus on, learn and see
what others are doing around it.
(41:33):
So they come in to the groupcoaching after an individual
feedback around their results,which is done in private, they
come into the rest of the groupand the group keeps them
accountable around their projectof what they're going to change
in their leadership, and thatgoes over six months.
Drew J (41:52):
Yeah, yeah, terrific.
So in terms of you've alludedto the programs that you, could
you tell us a little bit furtherabout the programs that you
have?
I see you have leading oryou've got foundations, leading
coaching conversations.
You've got mentoring programs.
You've got group coaching.
How might educational leadersbenefit from engaging in
(42:14):
programs like yours, fromengaging in?
Annette Gray (42:20):
programs like yours.
Sure, well, I like to takepeople on a leadership journey,
and the first place isfoundations.
How do you have coach-likeconversations?
And so it's in your toolkit ofhow do I do this, and the key
part of that is how do I be moresolution-focused in the way I
lead?
So it's not about some peopleget confused that being
(42:43):
solution-focused is come to mewith your solutions, don't come
to me with problems.
That's not it at all.
It's about how do we co-createthe solution based on what
you've tried already and basedon what you've tried already and
based on what you want.
So I'm going to be a co-creatorwith you of these solutions,
rather than tell you what to door expect you to go away and
(43:07):
think about what you need to do.
So this is, get the basics ofhow to have effective coaching.
Conversations is the first, andthat's when the choice after
that is then doing groupcoaching, because I want people
to have the foundations of howdo you need to be with others.
(43:27):
Yeah, so you need to be open,curious, interested, have a
growth mindset, be solutionfocused.
So they're the foundations tothen, if you come into group
coaching and you're supportingothers to grow and learn in that
cohort, which is 10, and wemeet for two hours every month
(43:48):
for six months and then finallyfor the elite athletes of the
leadership world.
Then I'll work with peopleone-to-one.
But I want those foundationsand the group coaching
experience because I think whenyou're coming into individual
coaching you really want to bethere and you really want to be
(44:12):
those elite athletes in theprincipal world.
They really want to make adifference and that's where the
one-to-one support comes in.
After they've opened their eyesto other approaches, whatever
others done, is that all makingsense?
Drew J (44:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm just taking it all inthinking from a principal
perspective of all the differentoptions of where to start with
this journey.
I'm curious about coaching, I'mthinking about it.
Where do I start, Where's thejourney?
And we'll put all of those notesand links into our showcase
notes as well, for our listenersas well, for interested in
(44:53):
terms of it's a matter of wheredo I start and where do I want
to go, which is part of thescaffolding I suspect in the
coaching journey that you'lllead our leaders through, and
what I heard was the potentialof accountability with the group
coaching and potentially evenfrom other sectors, which is not
(45:14):
necessarily a bad thing as wellto learn from others and hear
about, which gives people it'sactually sometimes refreshing as
well to hear from the othersectors of their challenges and
how they would deal withwhatever the challenges they're
dealing with as leaders as well.
Yeah, and then moving into, asyou said at the end, that elite
(45:38):
athlete I really love that,really great thinking.
You don't think of yourself forprincipals, as elite athletes,
but they really to be highperformers, they really need to
think like an elite athlete.
Annette Gray (45:55):
Yes, exactly.
And now I didn't mention mymentoring program, which is a,
you know it's an easy way to getinto the concepts and tools and
skills that I provide to people, which is a self-paced
mentoring made easy program.
And that's not just for leaders, that's of people who are
(46:16):
mentoring, mentoring who want tobe a better mentor.
Because what I notice aboutpeople are told you're a mentor
but never given any skilldevelopment of what would be a
good way of doing this.
People always revert to I'mgoing to download all my wisdom
and tell you how it's been forme, rather than actually you can
(46:37):
be coach-like in your mentoringas well.
So that's an easy way to startif you want some people to
develop these skills in yourschool around how to be a better
mentor.
Drew J (46:52):
Yeah, such important to go the default mentor process.
You're a mentor whether youwant to or not, but in terms of
the skill set to be able to dothat is a complete skill set in
itself to be able to.
So what I've heard is you haveresources or a course that
participants who are in thatsituation can go and access
(47:13):
through your website yes, yes,and it's all-paced so they can
do it in their own time.
Annette Gray (47:19):
And what I've also made it it's four hours of
content and then four hours ofpractice with a real mentor a
mentee, sorry and then come backand reflect on it.
So it's like I'm the coach onthe side, that they come back in
and go okay, how did I do whatseemed to work?
(47:39):
But it's all been recorded,it's all video content and
exercises and activities to do.
Drew J (47:49):
Yeah, fabulous, such a broad range there, annette.
Terrific in terms of theoverview that we've heard.
Now let's get into some quickfire rounds we do with our
guests to finish off.
It's been a really greatconversation with you.
Let's start with oneconversation that changed your
life.
Annette Gray (48:10):
I've actually thought of two, okay, okay, one
is the first leader.
I had no second actually leaderI had after I left teaching and
went into the corporate world,into learning and development,
and I became part of the humanresource organizational
(48:32):
development team and this leaderit wasn't a I suppose it was a
series of conversations, butwhat I noticed it was like
you're doing things different.
I've never experienced a leaderdoing what you're doing.
He was being coached like andthis was in the 1990s and it was
(48:54):
before coaching as a professioncame into Australia, and it was
before coaching as a professioncame into Australia and he had
up on his whiteboard GROW, whichis the GROW model, and I was
curious around how he wasleading.
So it got me intrigued so much.
My career path went down theleadership development path
(49:17):
because I went, wow, he's doingit well, but I'm not experienced
others doing it like that.
So it was a series of justworking and this guy was not old
like he was 35 at the time buthe just was this incredible way
of being with others and I feellike I did some of my best work
(49:39):
at that time because the way hewas leading me.
So that's one, and then theother happened in 2011.
And that was around learningsolution focus and my way of
being.
The way I live my life, the wayI teach people to coach, is all
(50:02):
about solution focus, and I'mnow connected to a worldwide
network of solution focuspractitioners who have really
influenced the way I coach, theway I facilitate, the way I be
in my life.
(50:25):
It was a previous organization Iwork for.
He was the managing director.
He said I've come across thisapproach and I think there's
something in it.
And he was right.
There was something in it.
So three of us from thatorganization, senior leaders did
a 16-week Solution Focus onlineprogram with the University of
(50:50):
Wisconsin and Mark McGurk, who'sa leading voice thought leader
in Solution Focus.
That brought it from thetherapy world into the
organisational world.
So, yeah, it was him sayingthere's something in this One.
(51:20):
I've got four, okay.
The first one would be coachinga to z, and it's by Haesun Moon
.
Haesun is a communicationscientist from Toronto in Canada
(51:45):
.
If they read this book,coaching A to Z, they will get
what solution-focused is and getthe basics of what coaching is.
The second one is called LovePlus Work and it's by a guy
called Marcus Buckingham, andMarcus Buckingham, used to work
(52:06):
for Gallup organization and thathe researched what 35,000
leaders and managers around theworld did.
Well, this book is around how doyou help people bring out their
uniqueness and how do you getthem to love the work that
(52:26):
they're doing and I think thisis a game changer for leaders in
schools but also other settings.
Around what questions?
There's only four that I needto ask weekly with people to
help them find their ownuniqueness so they love what
they do.
It's a brilliant book, and thenthere's two others.
(52:51):
The third one is how to Workwith Almost Anyone, and it's a
guy called MichaelBungay-Stanier.
He wrote the Coaching Habit,but this book is really good at
giving practical things you cando.
That sets up relationships wellin your work context.
(53:13):
So, in this situation at schools, what are the things that we
need to have a conversationabout?
When you first come to thisschool, yep, or when you're new
as a principal in a school, howdo you want to work with people?
But it's a negotiation, yeah,of how we best work together.
So for you, drew, you know ifI'm working with you.
(53:35):
You know how do you want me tobe as your leader.
What's going to work best foryou.
I need autonomy or I need somespace, but I need to check in
with you once a week or everytwo weeks, and that's what that
original leader did back in the90s.
He asked us how regularly do weneed to meet?
(53:58):
Well, I said probably onlyevery three weeks, but when my
project gets close to thedeadline, I need weekly
conversation, one-to-ones, withyou.
So that's what he was doing.
What Michael Bungay-Staniersays is about how to work with
almost anyone.
It's a negotiation that youneed to sit down and work out.
(54:18):
How do you best work?
What do you need from me asyour leader to bring out your
best?
And then the fourth sorry iscalled no Bad Parts.
No Bad Parts is the guy thatdeveloped internal family
systems.
His name's Richard Schwartz.
Guy that developed internalfamily systems, his name's
(54:42):
Richard Schwartz, and this iswhere the self-awareness piece
comes in, for leaders Know yourtriggers.
And he's basically saying wehave an internal family of
little children that are insideus and they get triggered at
certain points when people saycertain things to us.
That is a bit like how a parentdid, or a first teacher or
first boss did, and we gettriggered.
So how can I show somecompassion to that part of me,
(55:08):
so I can then be in my bestversion of me going forward.
So if principals and leaders inschools learn that for
themselves, they're more likelythen to be able to show be calm
compassion to others when theyget triggered.
So that's where theself-awareness piece comes.
(55:29):
So sorry one, thank you.
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,
okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,
(55:56):
okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,
okay.
Well, it took me a while tothink about this, but I went
walking with my dog this morningand went ah, that's it, I know
what it is it's going.
I now moved six months ago.
I moved closer to the beach, somy happy place is seeing the
(56:20):
water.
So I'll often take my dog for awalk later in the day, as well
as sometimes in the morning, andseeing that ocean gives me
perspective, you know.
So, whatever, getting out innature is now well researched
around.
It's important that we all getour they call it the green
(56:43):
prescription.
You know how do you get out innature more, and that's how I do
it at the end of the day.
That's one aspect, and theother is I try and sit in
silence.
You know you don't have tonecessarily meditate, but I do.
That's a morning routine I have.
But even just sitting, closingyour eyes for five minutes and
(57:05):
going within gets things intoperspective as well.
Drew J (57:09):
So having that silent space, Really practical advice
for people listening going yeah,how?
When was the last time that youdid spend five minutes in in
absolute silence?
And it's amazing when you dothat, annette, isn't it?
How many thoughts can passthrough that process, and I
(57:35):
guess that's part of thatprocessing of information that
we do all the time that comesthrough this as well.
Really practical, getting intonature and five minutes.
So that's a challenge for ourlisteners.
And I guess the last question Ihave is one piece of advice for
leaders facing uncertainty.
Annette Gray (57:57):
Don't try and solve it.
You know.
Work with others to actuallythink about what.
How do we make sense of thisuncertainty and then, in our
context, what's something smallwe can do to move forward on it.
Don't try and be the fountainof all knowledge and have to
(58:21):
work out on your own, or withjust your you know deputy or AP
around, what you're going to do.
Use your people.
You've got adults working withyou who are very capable outside
of work and you know, know,manage their lives.
Utilize their resourcefulness,because they often have a
(58:42):
different take um.
So yeah, spread, collaboratewith others to work it out yeah,
terrific, very practical.
Drew J (58:55):
thank you you for sharing that overview of all of
those gems that you shared withus today.
Look, Annette, it's a pleasureto have you on our podcast.
The critical role you play withsupporting leaders I can hear
that in terms of from the onsetof the people that you're
surrounded by are educators.
(59:16):
The work you've led, which Iheard today, especially the
recovery phase of the BlackSummer fires, and for anyone who
wants to learn more, pleasevisit annettegraycomau or check
out Annette's YouTube channel atAnnette Gray Consulting, and
there's an incredible amount ofwisdom there for educational
leaders or anyone passionateabout leading people.
(59:40):
Well, annette, thank you againfor your time and joining us
today.
Absolutely Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Medal of Honor: Stories of Courage
Rewarded for bravery that goes above and beyond the call of duty, the Medal of Honor is the United States’ top military decoration. The stories we tell are about the heroes who have distinguished themselves by acts of heroism and courage that have saved lives. From Judith Resnik, the second woman in space, to Daniel Daly, one of only 19 people to have received the Medal of Honor twice, these are stories about those who have done the improbable and unexpected, who have sacrificed something in the name of something much bigger than themselves. Every Wednesday on Medal of Honor, uncover what their experiences tell us about the nature of sacrifice, why people put their lives in danger for others, and what happens after you’ve become a hero. Special thanks to series creator Dan McGinn, to the Congressional Medal of Honor Society and Adam Plumpton. Medal of Honor begins on May 28. Subscribe to Pushkin+ to hear ad-free episodes one week early. Find Pushkin+ on the Medal of Honor show page in Apple or at Pushkin.fm. Subscribe on Apple: apple.co/pushkin Subscribe on Pushkin: pushkin.fm/plus
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com