August 17, 2024 • 50 mins
Unlock the secrets of effective educational leadership with Rosie Connor, a renowned author and director of leadership development, as she introduces her revolutionary MESSY leadership model. Discover how Meaning, Making Emotional Connection, Sensing the Future, Seizing Momentum, and Your Presence can reshape your approach to school leadership, creating a dynamic and responsive educational environment. Rosie’s insights, drawn from her book Embracing MESSY Leadership and real-world coaching experience, reveal how navigating the inherent messiness of leadership can lead to profound transformations in schools.
Get ready to challenge conventional thinking and embrace future-focused leadership strategies tailored for educators. Through the playful yet powerful Bop-It approach, learn how asking the right questions can spark innovation and bring creative solutions to life. This episode also offers practical advice on experimenting with new ideas on a small scale, overcoming budget constraints, and effectively managing time with the three Ps framework to seize momentum and drive progress.
Self-awareness is a cornerstone of leadership, and we explore powerful techniques to develop this crucial skill. Drawing on Stephen Covey's "big rocks" analogy and Peter DeWitt's strategies for de-cluttering, we discuss how to prioritize significant tasks and streamline activities. With real-life examples and case studies, gain insights into balancing instructional and transformational leadership, and discover tools to enhance classroom engagement and community involvement. This episode is a treasure trove of actionable tips and frameworks designed to elevate your leadership journey and inspire transformative changes in your school community.
Further information about MESSY leadership can be found via:
https://btsspark.org/en-us/messyleadership
Links and References:
To view our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning
To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Drew (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Season 2 of the Principal
Learnings Podcast.
If you're a principal oreducational leader looking to
enhance your skills, this is theplace for you, so let's get
into it.
Let's embark on this learningjourney together.
Welcome to ProfessionalLearnings for Educational
Leaders, the podcast where wedive into the latest insights
(00:23):
and strategies to support andempower educational leaders.
I'm your host, Drew Janetsky,and today we have a very special
episode lined up for you.
Our guest is Rosie Connor.
Rosie is an accomplished authorand the director behind the
innovative book Embracing MessyLeadership.
Rosie has over two decades ofexperience in leadership
(00:46):
development.
Rosie has been at the forefrontof transforming educational
leadership practices across theglobe.
Her work with BTS Spark hasprovided invaluable coaching to
support to more than 20,000, yes, 20,000 leaders worldwide,
helping them navigate thecomplexities and challenges of
modern educational environments.
(01:08):
In her latest book, Rosieintroduces the MESSI leadership
model, which stands for meaning,making emotional connection,
sensing the future, seizingmomentum and your presence.
The why.
These five key traits andmindsets are essential for
effective leadership in ourpost-pandemic world, and through
(01:29):
our conversation we'll explorehow these principles can help
school leaders create sharedvisions, build strong
relationships, innovate andmaintain their presence amidst
the ever-changing landscape ofeducation.
Before we dive into ourdiscussion, I'd like to
highlight some of the key themesfrom the book that we touched
(01:52):
upon.
The first one is the importanceof creating a shared vision and
engaging with others incollaborative efforts.
Other thing that came reallystrong was building trust and
handing difficult conversationsthrough emotional connection.
We also discussed the need forinnovative thinking to tackle
persistent improvement inchallenges, as well as embracing
(02:14):
proactive leadership andeffective time management, and
also the development andself-awareness and confidence to
overcome personal barriers.
Self-awareness and confidenceto overcome personal barriers.
Rosie's insights are not justtheoretically.
They're grounded in the realworld experiences and practical
strategies that have been provento work.
So, whether you're a seasonedschool leader or stepping into
(02:38):
this leadership role, thisepisode is packed with some
really valuable takeaways toenhance your leadership journey.
Enjoy our conversation withRosie Connor.
So, Rosie, welcome back to ourpodcast.
Great to have you back afterour first podcast, which was
(03:01):
themed around the book the FourGreatest Coaching Conversations
Change Mindset, Shift Attitudeand Achieve Extraordinary
Results.
And today we're going to betalking about messy leadership,
and you're the author of MessyLeadership, so you'll be able to
talk about your book, the MessyLeadership Model, Rosie, let's
(03:23):
start with what inspired thecreation of the messy leadership
model, and how do you see thistransforming school leadership
practices as described in yourbook?
Rosie (03:52):
yeah, thanks, Drew, and it's great to be on the podcast
with you.
So messy leadership was?
It was inspired because we allknow, we all understand that the
reality of school leadership isreally messy we don't need to
tell anybody that and of day today, our coaches work with
school leaders in New SouthWales and Australia and all over
the world to embrace that messin us, to give themselves a
(04:13):
little bit of a break and nottry and control it always, but
to know how to react to that andgo with that.
So coaching offers a realopportunity to step back, to
pause, to reflect on yourpractice, to see yourself and to
(04:37):
be able to start to imagine howyou may want to move things
forward with your own practiceor with the school that you're
leading.
You may want to move thingsforward with your own practice
or with the school that you'releading, and that means that
over the past 20 years workingin New South Wales and other
school systems, we have coached20,000 school leaders and that
(05:01):
gives us a real privilegedinsight, a window into what
school leaders on a day-to-daybasis are grappling with, are
finding tricky, are asking forsupport from their coaches with.
So we wanted to share some ofthat experience and that
expertise in a way that meantthat many school leaders at all
levels in schools in Australiaand elsewhere could benefit from
(05:25):
some of the practical toolsthat our coaches share on a
day-to-day basis in coachingsessions, and also to help
school leaders realize thatthey're not the only ones,
because there are so many folkout there experiencing some of
the same issues day in and dayout, and being particularly a
(05:47):
school principal can feel likequite a lonely path, whereas if
you realize that you're not theonly one and nobody's perfect,
then that can be really helpful,I think.
So I would imagine that if someof your listeners actually do
pick up a copy of the book andread it, they will see
(06:08):
themselves in some of thestories, some of the case
studies.
So that's really where the bookcame about.
It came about from schoolleaders coaching sessions.
We then developed it withschool leaders.
We called these MessyLeadership Pioneers, and there
were some school leaders in NewSouth Wales as Messy Leadership
(06:31):
Pioneers as well as otherselsewhere.
So in fact the book took usabout a year to write, because
what happened is that we wouldwrite a single chapter, say on M
from the MESSY acronym, andthen we would share that chapter
with MESSY leadership pioneersall over the country and
(06:53):
globally who would then try out.
They'd read the chapter and tryout some of those tools for the
month and then they'd give usfeedback and we'd rewrite the
chapters.
So we develop MESSY leadershipreally with school leaders and
of course it's there for schoolleaders and that's what makes it
, I think, really practicalmanual.
Drew (07:12):
Yeah, it's coming through so strongly, Rosie, in terms of
those stories and that journeyand the fact what you just said
was we worked with the leadersand we wrote the chapters.
Then we went back and saw whatthe impact of that was.
You could really sense that asthe reader as you work through.
I really enjoyed the realnessof that, where principals were
(07:38):
sharing their vulnerabilitiesand principals were sharing how
they hadn't succeeded or theirparticular worries, which was
really resonated through and forour listeners, I believe they
would or principals oreducational leaders listening.
We all have those thoughtprocesses and there's parts in
(08:00):
there with self-confidence aswell, and working through that
with a framework really aligns.
We are still human.
However, utilizing theseframeworks and the emphasis of
what coaching does can actuallyhelp us guide us through through
the mess.
So, so to speak.
So many practical takeaways Iwas going to go into now.
(08:25):
Visionary leadership mentionedin the school In the book.
It introduces the messyleadership model, which
emphasizes meeting making as akey trait.
How can school leaders create ashared vision that engages
their staff and stakeholders,especially in this complex
(08:46):
post-pandemic context?
Rosie (08:51):
That's a good question there, Drew, and we're all aware
that the current contextthere's increasing levels of
uncertainty, there's increasingdiversity of student populations
that you're dealing with andchallenges around equity and
inclusion so this is demanding adifferent kind of leadership as
(09:17):
school leaders.
I think everyone wants to makea difference right.
So if you come in to a schoolas a principal or if you come
into a department as a head ofdepartment, then you want to add
value straight away and thetricky thing is sometimes in
knowing how to engage your team,how to engage the community and
(09:38):
how to pace the changes.
So in the MESSY Leadership bookwe have a case study of an
acting principal called Oliviaand she came in and it was
pretty obvious to her early onin looking around the school
that there were some not so notbeing particularly well served,
the processes developing theirindividual education plans were
(09:59):
getting clogged up and so on.
So she straight away wanted tofix things, even as an acting
principal, and told everybodywhat to do and got clear on what
was the direction she wanted tohead.
(10:22):
And then a few months down theline, she was having a coaching
session with her coach and shewas in a really fragile state
and the coach was asking her youknow what's going on, olivia?
And she said look, I knewreally early on what needed to
happen.
And then nothing's happened.
And I've suddenly had thisrealization where it makes me
(10:44):
remember this quote from JohnMaxwell which says that if
you're leading and no one'sfollowing, you're just taking a
walk.
And it was a great quote andreally honest of her, and you
can imagine feeling that, andand all of us have had an olivia
(11:05):
moment, I think, where where werealize that we haven't quite
got people on board.
So so what the book does in themeaning making chapter, it gives
you some really practicalstrategies.
But how do you, how do youbring people with you?
How do you listen to theirconcerns, listen to their
aspirations, bring curiosityinto that conversation and model
(11:29):
that yourselves, as well asencouraging that amongst your
team, so you can get curiouswith data and insights rather
than, rather than defensive andand and prickly.
And how can you lift yoursights beyond the, the
day-to-day and really engage inconversations about what could
be possible?
Drew (11:53):
Yeah, yeah, love that quote, Really enjoy that quote
where I'm just out for a walk,really, but, as leaders who are
listening can relate to thosemoments and that's what coaching
is.
And also reflecting uponleadership In the book.
(12:14):
We'll move into the emotionalconnection and well-being, rosie
, where in the book itemphasizes emotional connection
as a crucial for building trustand strong working relationships
.
Rosie, what practicalstrategies can school leaders
use to build deeper, moretrusting relationships with
their staff or handleconversations?
(12:36):
That is demonstrated in thisbook.
Rosie (12:38):
So for us this emotional connection chapter is one of the
most important chapters and itit really speaks to the human
side of school leadership.
It's all meditating the obvious, but schools are full of humans
, aren't they?
And that creates the mess.
And it's also the joy about thejob.
Drew (13:00):
An aid of being human is fantastic, but also that
emotional connection is soimportant and how to extract
that is emphasized throughoutthe book.
Rosie (13:13):
Completely, completely.
So there's a lot of talk aboutbuilding trust and how to go
about that some very practicalstrategies, tools like See, hear
, speak, which is about reallyhelping the other person feel
seen and heard and met at ahuman level before you engage in
(13:36):
deep conversations about whatneeds to happen or change or
whatever.
But also what we find is that alot of school leaders are
really concerned to not rock theboat too much and to keep
really positive workingrelationships with everybody at
(13:56):
all times, and that can beincredibly difficult and
sometimes impossible, because ifyou're trying to keep everybody
happy, then then you end up notsticking to any one path.
Sometimes there are compromisesat the for the sake of keeping
people happy rather thandecisions made for the benefit
of students.
So so we we call this in incoaching lingo the the be nice,
(14:20):
be nicer cycle, where everyoneends up at a superficial level,
getting on with each other.
Maybe there are a lot ofelephants in the room, maybe
some poor performance has notbeen addressed, maybe some
feedback conversations thathaven't been held.
So we talk about the uncommonsense of messy leadership.
(14:44):
One of the uncommon senses isthat actually it really helps to
have those feedbackconversations and even if they
feel like difficultconversations, because that
helps people to know whereyou're at, that there are no
elephants in the room then, andyou can model that by inviting
(15:04):
feedback.
As a leader, you can start byinviting feedback on yourself
and normalizing this feedbackculture, and then it feels less
threatening if you're givingfeedback to somebody else.
But for us, the worst thingthat you can do is avoid these
difficult conversations.
That doesn't create emotionalconnection, quite the opposite.
Drew (15:28):
Okay.
So quite the opposite, rosie.
That's interesting, interesting.
So, as a leader, where thedirection it's accepting
mediocrity, so to speak, andit's that shift of what is the
purpose here, what am I tryingto achieve here as a leader?
And in the book you emphasizesome examples where a leader
(15:52):
said finding the shift from aposition into, and even if it is
into, an acting role, how theyfound that really challenging,
from being alongside with theexecutive to now I'm actually
having to lead and make thatshift and also addressing those
things of confidentiality, whichis so crucial in an example
(16:15):
where the leader was aware ofthings coming out of the
leadership team, out of theleadership team.
But they really struggled withthat, rosie, in terms of how
that was leaked out, andaddressing the elephant in the
room was really hard for thatparticular leader in that
example.
They were really grappling with.
(16:36):
Well, how can I tackle thatissue of trust?
I know there's some mistrust inmy leadership team here.
Clearly it's been breached andit's out within that.
How can I bring that back as aleader?
That was some beautifulexamples in terms of how that
leader came back in and spokeabout their values, what their
(17:00):
purpose was and frame that.
But that's a conversation thatcannot happen.
Naturally, it happened throughin the examples that happened
through several sessions ofcoaching and understanding what
their purpose was.
Rosie (17:16):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I mean, none of these are easyfixes and and it really does
help to be engaged in severalcoaching sessions to really
embrace some of these newstrategies and try them out and
learn from that.
Drew (17:33):
Yeah, the notion of trust.
Isn't it Like?
When trust is great, it'sfantastic, it's that feeling
everything is going really well.
However, once that trust isbroken, the question is, can
that be brought back?
And in the example there, theprincipal was able to bring that
(17:54):
integrity back into the roomand it was almost a sense of
relief from a fellow executivesaying a sense of relief from a
fellow executive sayingunderstand, and we're on your
side here and it's great thatyou've addressed the elephant in
the room and then it'sfollowing further with how to
address that and build thatrapport back.
(18:16):
Yeah, really practical is whatI found through that.
Rosie Moving forward.
Let's move into sensing thefuture as another key highlight
in your book.
How could school leaders thinkinnovatively?
They're always thinkinginnovatively and experiment to
tackle the entrenched challengesthrough this approach.
Rosie (18:46):
So my co-author, melissa Gallagher, has actually written
books on design thinking inschools, so there's obviously a
body of literature and some verypractical guides just on this
topic.
It's a big one, I think, interms of freeing yourself up as
a leader to start embracing this, sensing the future.
(19:06):
There are a few things that arereally important.
So one is to have the courageto challenge the status quo, to
to imagine that we could dodifferently or better, and and
that takes a kind of helicopter,it takes some guts, it takes an
attitude of not to settle forsecond best, I think.
(19:31):
Then there's the need to bereally curious and to provoke
some really creative thinkingaround solutions on the back of
data.
So being curious about insightsfrom different stakeholders and
really provoking that inquiryis super helpful.
(19:55):
We have various mechanisms todo that.
In the book we talk about theBop-It approach.
Do you remember Bop-It?
It was the kind of children'stoy gadgets.
Drew (20:10):
I love that example.
It was very clever and how thatframework.
Please explain to our listenerswhat that reference is.
Rosie (20:20):
It obviously dates me a little bit, so this must have
been 1980s, 1990s.
It's just this toy gadget thingthat you had different levers
and you could pull them andshrink them and turn them and
twist them and revolve them andso on.
So we have that analogy and itcan help sometimes to free up
that thinking.
We have various provocativequestions around.
(20:42):
You know, if we're trying tosolve this issue with unlimited
budget, what would you do?
Or with zero budget, how couldyou still approach it?
Sometimes in these processes youcan use examples like if you
were Tinkerbell, how would yousolve this problem?
So these are all just designedto free up and open up some
(21:05):
creative thinking you can thenask questions about okay, so
we've come up with some of thesestrategies.
They look a little bit zanywhat would have to be true to
make them work?
And that wording, that phrase,what would have to be true can
be really helpful.
To stay on the positive,because it's so easy to knock
(21:27):
down ideas, and often ideas theymight be terrible, but there's
a 10% of that idea which is agem.
So, asking those questions whatwould have to be true?
And then experimenting andprototyping.
Sometimes we get so caught inthe weeds that we never get out
the other side.
So it's really important tobecome action oriented and just
(21:51):
give something a go in a smallscale, maybe just with one class
, maybe just for for 10 weeks,maybe do a learning sprint, um,
and then, and then review andevaluate and persevere and then
adapt and change and scale.
So so those would be just someideas around.
How would you go about sensingthe future and supporting your
(22:14):
school leadership team or yourteachers to do that?
Drew (22:18):
Yeah, I love the Boppet analogy example and also the
thinking around budget, which isvery a space at the moment that
school leaders are grapplingwith in the New South Wales and
more than likely Australiancontext, with governments having
to cut back.
Where you talked about well,what if you had an unlimited
(22:39):
budget?
What would actually change?
It's changing that thinkingWell, if you'd had no resources,
could you still deliver thesame outcome?
And framing that makes peoplereflect and think about well,
what is possible here?
Could I do that and is thatactually going to?
(22:59):
If I did have an unlimitedbudget, would it be able to
achieve the desired outcome thatwe would like be able to
achieve the desired outcome thatwe would like?
I'm moving to seizing momentumnow for progress, which was
another theme that came through.
Seizing momentum is vital forprogress, as you mentioned in
(23:20):
your book.
What advice do you have forschool leaders to be more
proactive and to effectivelymanage their time to embrace new
ways of working?
Rosie (23:31):
Well, of course I'm careful to preach too much on
this, because we all haveAchilles' heels right.
We talk in the book about thethree Ps, which sometimes is a
helpful frame for some peoplewhen they're thinking about time
management, frame for somepeople when they're thinking
(23:51):
about time management.
So the three Ps aroundprioritization, around
proactivity, and then the Pthat's less helpful is
procrastination, and probablyall of us can relate to at least
one of those as areas ofstrengths or areas of weakness.
If you look at some of theideas that Stephen Covey's put
(24:11):
out about that, he's got thislovely analogy of imagine if you
had a glass jar and you've gotto fit in some big rocks and
some small rocks and some tinylittle pebbles.
How would you go about doingthat?
And the obvious answer is well,you're going to start by
putting in the big rocks, aren'tyou?
Because then, after you've gotthe big rocks in, then you can
(24:32):
put the little pebbles aroundand the little grits around, and
they'll still fit in.
And the analogy is about it'simportant to sometimes to tackle
those big things.
Drew (24:42):
Our association is a big Covey comfort for our listeners
would really be able to relateto that big rock analogy that
you said.
It's such a powerful tool and,for those who haven't seen the
video, I highly recommend toYouTube that.
It's a really classic exampleof, well, what are your
priorities that you're puttingin here?
Rosie (25:06):
So I know I'm guilty sometimes of having my to-do
list and I like to tick off theeasy things and I've got a
colleague who I really admireand what he does is he starts
the morning and looks at thebiggest, trickiest job that he
really doesn't want to do, buthe knows it's important and he
gets that one done first that hereally doesn't want to do but
(25:28):
he knows it's important and hegets that one done first.
It's such a lesson for me I trymy best to emulate.
I'm not perfect on it.
In terms of other strategies,there's some interesting work by
Peter DeWitt, who's obviouslyfamous in his work in EdWeek,
and he's written a book recentlyabout decluttering and
(25:50):
recognizing the need tochallenge what we're doing and
how we're spending our time,rather than just piling on extra
things to do and somehow try tobe superhuman and managing it
in extra hours afterwards Reallyquestioning what meetings are
we having and how regularly, anddo I need to be involved in
them?
What do I do on a weekly basisthat I could let go of and
(26:14):
delegate, and so on.
So this notion of declutteringis an interesting one.
We did a few bits of researchfor the book.
One of them was a survey thatwe did in collaboration with APA
, the Australian PrimaryPrinciples Association.
We were surveying principals onhow they spend their time.
(26:35):
Amongst other things he askedfolk to let us know what were
the top three things that weretaking up their time on a
typical week.
So just kind of quoting fromthe book here we have 73% of
principals saying performinginternal admin tasks is one of
those top three that just takeup a huge amount of time in the
(26:57):
week.
But if you compare that to,only 27% of principals said that
raising the quality of teachingand learning was one of those
three that were the top threetime consumers in the week.
So that's a bit sobering.
Drew (27:15):
Very much so, and I wouldn't say it's unsurprising.
Were you surprised by thatfinding Rosie?
Rosie (27:25):
No, not at all, not at all, not at all.
But it's people being honestand people doing the very best
work that they can do.
But it's so easy to get tied upin some of those little rocks.
Drew (27:44):
Yeah, and the book extracted the example of a
principal grappling with that.
How they could actually.
They know that they would like,they know the impact of
supporting their teachers andbeing in classrooms, but they
needed a framework of how, howcan I, what is my purpose in
getting into the classroom andthen what are the questions I'm
(28:08):
going to ask?
And through coaching, they wereable to unpack that and work
through that little tips, suchas having their admin staff
block out.
This time in my calendar, it'sa non-negotiable time I.
This is the priority that I'mtrying to achieve and, over as
(28:31):
you go, said before it's.
These things aren't instantfixes, but if they're done
through habit formation andpeople watch, and then they
could see.
And then in that in the exampleof the book, there was not sure
what time period it was.
However, the end result wasachieved.
(28:51):
They were able to get intoclassrooms and the goal was to
improve student learningoutcomes and they were able to
do that.
But that didn't happen viaaccident.
Rosie (29:02):
No, I mean, that's the advantage of some of these
people who are case-studded inthe book.
They've been accessing coachingand what that coaching has
forced them to do in the bestpossible supportive way is to
just slow down and stop for anhour and reflect on what feels
most important, that they coulddo differently, and then, of
(29:23):
course, agree how to enact thatpractically.
So think through, in this case,how this school leader was
going to go and visit classroomsand do some classroom
observations and feedback andthen, a month later, come back
(29:50):
to your coach to just make surethat you find the time in the
month to give it a go so you canreflect on how it went with
your coach.
Drew (30:00):
That's the beauty of coaching you get these kind of
monthly conversationsconversations, that accountable
moment of what you committed topreviously and what were the
actions that you did to helpensure that that accountability
is tracked in what you'veachieved.
And as a result of that example, the whole school and teachers
(30:25):
seem to buzz around the fact ofthe principal is in the
classroom, they're supportingand so forth, and people
listening going.
That's a pipe dream, like I'mso busy.
As you go back to the research,73% quite frightening is in
administration.
Now, administration is veryimportant.
(30:47):
That's an important part ofbeing in a principal, with
budgets and timetables and soforth.
But even that shift of, say, 5%or 10%, and shifting that 20%,
7% above that figure would beand the results would be amazing
.
So, yeah, I see so manyadvantages and practical
(31:08):
examples that for peoplelistening to our podcast suggest
reading through those examplesto get inspired by the how.
Because it's the how, rosie, Ithink it's an easy fix to say in
common conversation we're busy,everyone's busy, always busy.
(31:29):
But what is productive?
Busy and it goes back to well,what is the purpose?
I'm going to shift, if we can,to presence and self-awareness.
In the book, messy Leadershiphighlights the importance of
developing your presence foreffective leadership.
How can school leaders developgreater self-awareness and
(31:50):
confidence to overcome personalbarriers and lead effectively,
so to stop that impostersyndrome which is mentioned as
well.
Rosie (31:59):
So the Y, in my point of view, is the most important of
M-E-F-S-Y, m-e-c and it's soimportant that in our MESI
programs we actually start withthe Y.
You'd imagine that in a MESIprogram you have five sessions
on M-E-S-S-Y in coaching orworkshops, but actually our MESI
(32:20):
programs start with the Ybecause Y is all about you and
your leadership and yourconfidence, self-awareness, your
presence and and it's criticalit's.
It's been researched over andover again how, how pivotal
educational leadership is in aschool for the success of those,
(32:42):
those students in the school.
And what we find as coaches isthat self-confidence is a really
massive issue and that comesout in a coaching session,
because coaching is confidentialand it's not with a colleague
down the road, it's not withyour director of educational
(33:02):
leadership, it's with anexternal, confidential coach
where people can actually openup and talk about the truth.
So we find that confidence isone of the very top issues that
people seek coaching support on,as well as things like
difficult conversations andengaging others and stretching
(33:23):
and building others' capabilityand talent.
So it's good.
First of all, it's probablyencouraging for those reading
the Messy Leadership book torealize that they're not
possibly the only ones and thatconfidence hits education
leaders at all levels, so fromaspiring or emerging leaders
(33:44):
right through new principals,experienced principles and
directors of educationalleadership Dells.
This is a human trait.
In the book we talk about mindtraps being really critical.
So being aware of what negativepatterns of self-talk can catch
(34:06):
you out we call those mindtraps and what you can do to
just soften those and getyourself out of a spiral of
negative thinking.
Maybe you've been triggered bysomething and you're in a less
resourceful state.
So we offer some practicaltools that our coaches use, that
(34:27):
you can also coach yourselfthrough or you can coach
colleagues through, to help youself-unhook from that negative
spiral of thinking, unhook fromthe mind traps, and find a bit
of a more balanced perspective.
Drew (34:42):
That self-doubt.
It's a human trait.
It doesn't matter what levelpeople are at.
It's a human trait ofself-doubt and confidence can
spiral down, but it can alsospiral up as well, which is,
again, part of being human.
So, through the book, gettinginto the MindTrap, or through
(35:05):
the mind trap framework, leaderscan be coached through whatever
mindset they're in and becoached into, let's hope a more
positive framework that theycould then achieve their goals
and aspirations and valuesbecause, as I said, they were
(35:28):
selected.
Go back to what they have.
Someone else has seen them as aleader.
So those listening, going ifyou have that lack of confidence
or experiencing that forwhatever reason, remember they
were chosen to be a leader andlead their school by whether it
was a panel, by their director.
(35:50):
Someone else saw leadershipthrough them.
So other peoples have seen that.
So, yeah, some really goodmessages are coming through and
really good frameworks, rosie aswell, really practical.
I'm going to move to.
The book also emphasizes theneed for school leaders to
address equity and inclusion,which is so important.
(36:14):
How can leaders actively worktowards eliminating educational
inequalities and ensuring equityaccess to resources for all
students?
Rosie (36:25):
What I don't want to do is give a glib answer to this,
because this is a deep andimportant question.
What I would say is that thereare aspects of messy that really
speak to this.
There's a need to build a reallysensitive cultural awareness,
(36:46):
and some of those tools aroundemotional connection can help to
build those trustingrelationships with different
cultures in the community.
There's a need to know yourself,so the why in terms of
self-awareness in your presencecan help you be more aware of
(37:06):
some of the unconscious biasesthat get in the way of you being
an inclusive leader.
Then there's a need to havethat really strong sense of
shared purpose, so what we wouldcall the M the making meaning
such that it's really clear inyour school community the focus
(37:31):
on students and what you'retrying to achieve.
I remember I was talking to asuperintendent in Canada, so a
superintendent like an educationdirector responsible for a
network of schools, and we'retalking about how does he cope
with some very tricky politicsin the community and how does he
(37:52):
make decisions in that context,and he was explaining how.
What's really important is toalways be been really clear that
(38:13):
I've made it in the interestsof students, not of particular
individual teachers maybe, whohave a strong voice or whatever,
but it's been made front andcenter, really clearly in the
interests of students and, as ofall students, in terms of
inclusion.
Drew (38:32):
It goes back to the core values of why.
What is your why and what isthe decision that you have made
as a leader and throughunderstanding your why quoting
Sinek, here, simon Sinek is, ifyou know your why, sinek, here,
simon Sinek is, if you know yourwhy you can justify how you
have, in this case, you'dutilize your equity funds or
(39:06):
spend.
Equity is such an interestingyet complex area to explore.
Let's move to coaching andmentoring now One of your
passions, and I'm really hookedin the coaching space and seeing
the impact it has.
Coaching and mentoring ishighlighted in your book as
significant for leadershipdevelopment, and we've discussed
this before, rosie.
But what role does coaching andmentoring play in developing
(39:28):
effective school leaders and howcan schools implement these
practices?
Rosie (39:34):
So the first thing I'd say is that coaching and
mentoring are often put together, but they're actually really
different, they're reallydistinct and maybe in the
education sector that's lessunderstood that distinction.
In the education sector, that'sless understood that
(40:02):
distinction.
So mentoring really is therefor somebody new coming into a
role to be supported by someonemore experienced principals,
principal mentors who can sharetheir experience, share some
expertise, be there for moralsupport.
Now, that's really important,particularly when you're new
into a role.
But that is different fromprofessional leadership coaching
(40:27):
.
So people don't realize thatcoaching is a profession and our
coaches have been full-timecoaches for a decade or more and
that means that they're skilledand trained up and accredited
in being able to build yourleadership capability, give you
some really practical strategiesthat will help you to address
(40:48):
immediate problems but will alsobuild up your leadership
practice, widen your toolkit forthe future.
The other differences betweencoaches and mentors is that
mentors tend to be within thesystem and and that gives them
really good understanding ofcontext.
But the disadvantage is thatyou don't want to pull on too
(41:12):
much of their time becausethey're also often busy.
They may be leading schoolsthemselves and it's difficult to
feel like you're having atotally confidential
conversation.
If you're talking to somebodywho's running the school down
the road, you know it's a smallsystem and eventually you'll be
(41:33):
looking for promotion somewherethey may be on the interview
panel.
So it is difficult to be trulyvulnerable and to talk about
some of these issues aroundconfidence, for example, that we
were raising later.
That come up again and again incoaching conversations, which
maybe haven't come up previouslyin your career because you've
been just a little bit moreguarded in what you want to
(41:54):
share.
Drew (41:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
The confidentiality is such akey component to the piece and
also the fact that it's comingfrom external.
You said coming internal coulddeliver results, such as a
mentoring process, but there'salso the balance that they're
(42:18):
also running schools or they'rebusy people doing other
particular tasks in leadership,so to speak, in the system where
, through BTS Spark is theirexternal, they're very
experienced, theirconfidentiality and it also
gives that level ofaccountability that no one else
(42:39):
needs to know, which is such anadvantage that's coming through
clearly.
Rosie (42:46):
Yeah, so your coach is just there, just for you.
It's the ultimate inpersonalized learning and
support.
Drew (42:54):
We're moving now to balancing instructional and
transformational leadership.
That is a mouthful there initself.
Can we just unpack thedifference between instructional
and transformational leadership?
First, Rosie.
Rosie (43:10):
So I believe this is a real false dichotomy because
nobody would argue that as aschool leader or as a school
principal, your role is to raisethe quality of teaching and
learning and ensure that yourchildren have the best possible
experience.
So of course that's front andcenter, top priority.
(43:33):
Nobody would debate that andtypically that's called
instructional leadership.
So leading for that, that'sinstructional leadership.
Maybe People kind of typifytransformational leadership as,
oh, it's about creating a visionand engaging people in that.
(43:54):
So that's the human side ofleadership and people maybe call
that transformationalleadership.
But you can't have one withoutthe other.
Sometimes systems have tried todo this by having a relentless
focus, say, on improving studentattainment in literacy and
numeracy.
So all professionaldevelopment's just focused on
(44:17):
that and very quickly they'verealized that you can't achieve
that without also helping tobuild people's capability in
working with colleagues andcoaching others to adopt new
literacy and numeracy strategies.
So if you've got any kind ofchange agenda to improve, then
(44:38):
you need to factor in the needto get people on board.
They're making meaning and haveshared purpose, to engage them
and help them, to support themthrough that and give them
feedback on how they're doing.
So inevitably you've got allthe human sides of the
transformational leadership.
In the book there's a prefaceby Patsy Sauberg and he speaks
(45:01):
to this and he says there'snever been a greater need for
creating a shared vision forschool improvement than after
the pandemic.
So this isn't something thatwas a phase and isn't needed
anymore.
So we would argue that you needinstructional leaders who are
(45:26):
great at driving change andbringing people with them in
their community, and thereforethey need to have
transformational leadership andhuman leadership qualities too.
Drew (45:32):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely Well said in unpacking those two
frameworks there, Rosie.
They do go hand in hand.
So how can school leadersbalance these demands and create
lasting change?
Rosie (45:50):
and create lasting change .
Well, I think this speaks tothe need to create that shared
vision, so the making meaning,and then be bold enough to have
those possibly courageousconversations to really ensure
that people are held to account,that everyone's continuously
(46:13):
improving their practice andtherefore teaching and learning
in the school can continue toimprove.
It speaks to the need to beinnovative what we were talking
about in terms of the S, thesense in the future and be
proactive, which is the seizingmomentum, and be able to lead
(46:34):
all of that, which is the why.
So we've got a framework thatdoes speak to that need and
gives you some real practicaltools to balance the
instructional leadership and thetransformational leadership in
a sensible number of hours inthe day.
Drew (46:51):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely Well said.
Look, it's getting so manyfantastic reviews.
It's well regarded within, wellresearched, clearly
evidence-based For listeners.
Considering messy leadership,obviously the author, he is
speaking.
Where would you guide themthrough?
(47:12):
There's references on thewebsite.
Was there any particularstarting point that you would
say for educational leadersreally hooked on this messy
leadership concept?
Where would you point themtowards?
Rosie?
Rosie (47:32):
So if listeners are keen and a bit inspired and curious
to find out more, then I wouldreally encourage them to pursue
that, pursue that interest andinvest in themselves.
That could be as simple asgoogling bts spark, messy
leadership and and looking atthe web page, which has got lots
(47:53):
of ideas around how toimplement messy leadership.
On on the web page you've gotlinks to amazon where you can
obviously buy a copy of the book.
I'll probably get a cent or twofrom that.
Might be buy me a cup of teaeventually, but what's important
there is that what we're tryingto do is obviously share these
(48:16):
strategies On the websites.
On the Messy Leadership BTSSpark webpage there's also a
toolkit.
You can download that for freeBecause BTS Spark is a
(48:40):
not-for-profit.
We're just interested ingetting some of those ideas out
there and practically used ineveryday conversations and
become more confident, morecapable leaders for their school
communities.
Then I would encourage them tothink seriously about accessing
some support.
That can be through one-on-onecoaching, a program or working
(49:01):
with school leadership teamsthrough a workshop series or
group coaching program.
You'll see on the BTS Bar, ourMessy Leadership page at the
bottom.
There are several MessyLeadership programs there and
available at not-for-profitprices.
Just you can see from the bookwe've got lots of examples of
leaders benefiting from workingwith a professional leadership
(49:24):
coach, and your listeners couldbe those people too, who have
the support they need to growtheir leadership practice.
Drew (49:33):
Yeah, yeah, well said, rosie.
Really practical and reallycurrent research relevant to the
post-pandemic world that we areworking through and the ethos
of non-profit but practicaltools that people could explore.
Going to BTS Spark, looking atthe frameworks, picking up the
(49:56):
book, listing and taking away.
There are so many practicaltakeaways in the book that our
listeners I'd encourage you tolisten to and also really
consider coaching in terms ofthe impact and the research.
Going back to the four greatestcoaching conversations, where
we started our discussion pointis it does have impact coaching
(50:20):
and how that works through andit's not, as we said in our
previous podcast, all light andfluffy.
It's based on over 20 000conversations and a framework
and the confidentiality partthrough our discussion today is
really comes through.
For me and also, hopefully, ourlisteners, in terms of that is
(50:42):
so, so crucial in terms ofsharing what is your struggles
and what.
How would you like to achievethat?
So, rosie Connor, always apleasure.
Thank you for your time.
Rosie (50:55):
Thanks, Drew.
Hello and welcome to Season 2 of the Principal
Learnings Podcast.
If you're a principal oreducational leader looking to
enhance your skills, this is theplace for you, so let's get
into it.
Let's embark on this learningjourney together.
Welcome to ProfessionalLearnings for Educational
Leaders, the podcast where wedive into the latest insights
(00:23):
and strategies to support andempower educational leaders.
I'm your host, Drew Janetsky,and today we have a very special
episode lined up for you.
Our guest is Rosie Connor.
Rosie is an accomplished authorand the director behind the
innovative book Embracing MessyLeadership.
Rosie has over two decades ofexperience in leadership
(00:46):
development.
Rosie has been at the forefrontof transforming educational
leadership practices across theglobe.
Her work with BTS Spark hasprovided invaluable coaching to
support to more than 20,000, yes, 20,000 leaders worldwide,
helping them navigate thecomplexities and challenges of
modern educational environments.
(01:08):
In her latest book, Rosieintroduces the MESSI leadership
model, which stands for meaning,making emotional connection,
sensing the future, seizingmomentum and your presence.
The why.
These five key traits andmindsets are essential for
effective leadership in ourpost-pandemic world, and through
(01:29):
our conversation we'll explorehow these principles can help
school leaders create sharedvisions, build strong
relationships, innovate andmaintain their presence amidst
the ever-changing landscape ofeducation.
Before we dive into ourdiscussion, I'd like to
highlight some of the key themesfrom the book that we touched
(01:52):
upon.
The first one is the importanceof creating a shared vision and
engaging with others incollaborative efforts.
Other thing that came reallystrong was building trust and
handing difficult conversationsthrough emotional connection.
We also discussed the need forinnovative thinking to tackle
persistent improvement inchallenges, as well as embracing
(02:14):
proactive leadership andeffective time management, and
also the development andself-awareness and confidence to
overcome personal barriers.
Self-awareness and confidenceto overcome personal barriers.
Rosie's insights are not justtheoretically.
They're grounded in the realworld experiences and practical
strategies that have been provento work.
So, whether you're a seasonedschool leader or stepping into
(02:38):
this leadership role, thisepisode is packed with some
really valuable takeaways toenhance your leadership journey.
Enjoy our conversation withRosie Connor.
So, Rosie, welcome back to ourpodcast.
Great to have you back afterour first podcast, which was
(03:01):
themed around the book the FourGreatest Coaching Conversations
Change Mindset, Shift Attitudeand Achieve Extraordinary
Results.
And today we're going to betalking about messy leadership,
and you're the author of MessyLeadership, so you'll be able to
talk about your book, the MessyLeadership Model, Rosie, let's
(03:23):
start with what inspired thecreation of the messy leadership
model, and how do you see thistransforming school leadership
practices as described in yourbook?
Rosie (03:52):
yeah, thanks, Drew, and it's great to be on the podcast
with you.
So messy leadership was?
It was inspired because we allknow, we all understand that the
reality of school leadership isreally messy we don't need to
tell anybody that and of day today, our coaches work with
school leaders in New SouthWales and Australia and all over
the world to embrace that messin us, to give themselves a
(04:13):
little bit of a break and nottry and control it always, but
to know how to react to that andgo with that.
So coaching offers a realopportunity to step back, to
pause, to reflect on yourpractice, to see yourself and to
(04:37):
be able to start to imagine howyou may want to move things
forward with your own practiceor with the school that you're
leading.
You may want to move thingsforward with your own practice
or with the school that you'releading, and that means that
over the past 20 years workingin New South Wales and other
school systems, we have coached20,000 school leaders and that
(05:01):
gives us a real privilegedinsight, a window into what
school leaders on a day-to-daybasis are grappling with, are
finding tricky, are asking forsupport from their coaches with.
So we wanted to share some ofthat experience and that
expertise in a way that meantthat many school leaders at all
levels in schools in Australiaand elsewhere could benefit from
(05:25):
some of the practical toolsthat our coaches share on a
day-to-day basis in coachingsessions, and also to help
school leaders realize thatthey're not the only ones,
because there are so many folkout there experiencing some of
the same issues day in and dayout, and being particularly a
(05:47):
school principal can feel likequite a lonely path, whereas if
you realize that you're not theonly one and nobody's perfect,
then that can be really helpful,I think.
So I would imagine that if someof your listeners actually do
pick up a copy of the book andread it, they will see
(06:08):
themselves in some of thestories, some of the case
studies.
So that's really where the bookcame about.
It came about from schoolleaders coaching sessions.
We then developed it withschool leaders.
We called these MessyLeadership Pioneers, and there
were some school leaders in NewSouth Wales as Messy Leadership
(06:31):
Pioneers as well as otherselsewhere.
So in fact the book took usabout a year to write, because
what happened is that we wouldwrite a single chapter, say on M
from the MESSY acronym, andthen we would share that chapter
with MESSY leadership pioneersall over the country and
(06:53):
globally who would then try out.
They'd read the chapter and tryout some of those tools for the
month and then they'd give usfeedback and we'd rewrite the
chapters.
So we develop MESSY leadershipreally with school leaders and
of course it's there for schoolleaders and that's what makes it
, I think, really practicalmanual.
Drew (07:12):
Yeah, it's coming through so strongly, Rosie, in terms of
those stories and that journeyand the fact what you just said
was we worked with the leadersand we wrote the chapters.
Then we went back and saw whatthe impact of that was.
You could really sense that asthe reader as you work through.
I really enjoyed the realnessof that, where principals were
(07:38):
sharing their vulnerabilitiesand principals were sharing how
they hadn't succeeded or theirparticular worries, which was
really resonated through and forour listeners, I believe they
would or principals oreducational leaders listening.
We all have those thoughtprocesses and there's parts in
(08:00):
there with self-confidence aswell, and working through that
with a framework really aligns.
We are still human.
However, utilizing theseframeworks and the emphasis of
what coaching does can actuallyhelp us guide us through through
the mess.
So, so to speak.
So many practical takeaways Iwas going to go into now.
(08:25):
Visionary leadership mentionedin the school In the book.
It introduces the messyleadership model, which
emphasizes meeting making as akey trait.
How can school leaders create ashared vision that engages
their staff and stakeholders,especially in this complex
(08:46):
post-pandemic context?
Rosie (08:51):
That's a good question there, Drew, and we're all aware
that the current contextthere's increasing levels of
uncertainty, there's increasingdiversity of student populations
that you're dealing with andchallenges around equity and
inclusion so this is demanding adifferent kind of leadership as
(09:17):
school leaders.
I think everyone wants to makea difference right.
So if you come in to a schoolas a principal or if you come
into a department as a head ofdepartment, then you want to add
value straight away and thetricky thing is sometimes in
knowing how to engage your team,how to engage the community and
(09:38):
how to pace the changes.
So in the MESSY Leadership bookwe have a case study of an
acting principal called Oliviaand she came in and it was
pretty obvious to her early onin looking around the school
that there were some not so notbeing particularly well served,
the processes developing theirindividual education plans were
(09:59):
getting clogged up and so on.
So she straight away wanted tofix things, even as an acting
principal, and told everybodywhat to do and got clear on what
was the direction she wanted tohead.
(10:22):
And then a few months down theline, she was having a coaching
session with her coach and shewas in a really fragile state
and the coach was asking her youknow what's going on, olivia?
And she said look, I knewreally early on what needed to
happen.
And then nothing's happened.
And I've suddenly had thisrealization where it makes me
(10:44):
remember this quote from JohnMaxwell which says that if
you're leading and no one'sfollowing, you're just taking a
walk.
And it was a great quote andreally honest of her, and you
can imagine feeling that, andand all of us have had an olivia
(11:05):
moment, I think, where where werealize that we haven't quite
got people on board.
So so what the book does in themeaning making chapter, it gives
you some really practicalstrategies.
But how do you, how do youbring people with you?
How do you listen to theirconcerns, listen to their
aspirations, bring curiosityinto that conversation and model
(11:29):
that yourselves, as well asencouraging that amongst your
team, so you can get curiouswith data and insights rather
than, rather than defensive andand and prickly.
And how can you lift yoursights beyond the, the
day-to-day and really engage inconversations about what could
be possible?
Drew (11:53):
Yeah, yeah, love that quote, Really enjoy that quote
where I'm just out for a walk,really, but, as leaders who are
listening can relate to thosemoments and that's what coaching
is.
And also reflecting uponleadership In the book.
(12:14):
We'll move into the emotionalconnection and well-being, rosie
, where in the book itemphasizes emotional connection
as a crucial for building trustand strong working relationships
.
Rosie, what practicalstrategies can school leaders
use to build deeper, moretrusting relationships with
their staff or handleconversations?
(12:36):
That is demonstrated in thisbook.
Rosie (12:38):
So for us this emotional connection chapter is one of the
most important chapters and itit really speaks to the human
side of school leadership.
It's all meditating the obvious, but schools are full of humans
, aren't they?
And that creates the mess.
And it's also the joy about thejob.
Drew (13:00):
An aid of being human is fantastic, but also that
emotional connection is soimportant and how to extract
that is emphasized throughoutthe book.
Rosie (13:13):
Completely, completely.
So there's a lot of talk aboutbuilding trust and how to go
about that some very practicalstrategies, tools like See, hear
, speak, which is about reallyhelping the other person feel
seen and heard and met at ahuman level before you engage in
(13:36):
deep conversations about whatneeds to happen or change or
whatever.
But also what we find is that alot of school leaders are
really concerned to not rock theboat too much and to keep
really positive workingrelationships with everybody at
(13:56):
all times, and that can beincredibly difficult and
sometimes impossible, because ifyou're trying to keep everybody
happy, then then you end up notsticking to any one path.
Sometimes there are compromisesat the for the sake of keeping
people happy rather thandecisions made for the benefit
of students.
So so we we call this in incoaching lingo the the be nice,
(14:20):
be nicer cycle, where everyoneends up at a superficial level,
getting on with each other.
Maybe there are a lot ofelephants in the room, maybe
some poor performance has notbeen addressed, maybe some
feedback conversations thathaven't been held.
So we talk about the uncommonsense of messy leadership.
(14:44):
One of the uncommon senses isthat actually it really helps to
have those feedbackconversations and even if they
feel like difficultconversations, because that
helps people to know whereyou're at, that there are no
elephants in the room then, andyou can model that by inviting
(15:04):
feedback.
As a leader, you can start byinviting feedback on yourself
and normalizing this feedbackculture, and then it feels less
threatening if you're givingfeedback to somebody else.
But for us, the worst thingthat you can do is avoid these
difficult conversations.
That doesn't create emotionalconnection, quite the opposite.
Drew (15:28):
Okay.
So quite the opposite, rosie.
That's interesting, interesting.
So, as a leader, where thedirection it's accepting
mediocrity, so to speak, andit's that shift of what is the
purpose here, what am I tryingto achieve here as a leader?
And in the book you emphasizesome examples where a leader
(15:52):
said finding the shift from aposition into, and even if it is
into, an acting role, how theyfound that really challenging,
from being alongside with theexecutive to now I'm actually
having to lead and make thatshift and also addressing those
things of confidentiality, whichis so crucial in an example
(16:15):
where the leader was aware ofthings coming out of the
leadership team, out of theleadership team.
But they really struggled withthat, rosie, in terms of how
that was leaked out, andaddressing the elephant in the
room was really hard for thatparticular leader in that
example.
They were really grappling with.
(16:36):
Well, how can I tackle thatissue of trust?
I know there's some mistrust inmy leadership team here.
Clearly it's been breached andit's out within that.
How can I bring that back as aleader?
That was some beautifulexamples in terms of how that
leader came back in and spokeabout their values, what their
(17:00):
purpose was and frame that.
But that's a conversation thatcannot happen.
Naturally, it happened throughin the examples that happened
through several sessions ofcoaching and understanding what
their purpose was.
Rosie (17:16):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I mean, none of these are easyfixes and and it really does
help to be engaged in severalcoaching sessions to really
embrace some of these newstrategies and try them out and
learn from that.
Drew (17:33):
Yeah, the notion of trust.
Isn't it Like?
When trust is great, it'sfantastic, it's that feeling
everything is going really well.
However, once that trust isbroken, the question is, can
that be brought back?
And in the example there, theprincipal was able to bring that
(17:54):
integrity back into the roomand it was almost a sense of
relief from a fellow executivesaying a sense of relief from a
fellow executive sayingunderstand, and we're on your
side here and it's great thatyou've addressed the elephant in
the room and then it'sfollowing further with how to
address that and build thatrapport back.
(18:16):
Yeah, really practical is whatI found through that.
Rosie Moving forward.
Let's move into sensing thefuture as another key highlight
in your book.
How could school leaders thinkinnovatively?
They're always thinkinginnovatively and experiment to
tackle the entrenched challengesthrough this approach.
Rosie (18:46):
So my co-author, melissa Gallagher, has actually written
books on design thinking inschools, so there's obviously a
body of literature and some verypractical guides just on this
topic.
It's a big one, I think, interms of freeing yourself up as
a leader to start embracing this, sensing the future.
(19:06):
There are a few things that arereally important.
So one is to have the courageto challenge the status quo, to
to imagine that we could dodifferently or better, and and
that takes a kind of helicopter,it takes some guts, it takes an
attitude of not to settle forsecond best, I think.
(19:31):
Then there's the need to bereally curious and to provoke
some really creative thinkingaround solutions on the back of
data.
So being curious about insightsfrom different stakeholders and
really provoking that inquiryis super helpful.
(19:55):
We have various mechanisms todo that.
In the book we talk about theBop-It approach.
Do you remember Bop-It?
It was the kind of children'stoy gadgets.
Drew (20:10):
I love that example.
It was very clever and how thatframework.
Please explain to our listenerswhat that reference is.
Rosie (20:20):
It obviously dates me a little bit, so this must have
been 1980s, 1990s.
It's just this toy gadget thingthat you had different levers
and you could pull them andshrink them and turn them and
twist them and revolve them andso on.
So we have that analogy and itcan help sometimes to free up
that thinking.
We have various provocativequestions around.
(20:42):
You know, if we're trying tosolve this issue with unlimited
budget, what would you do?
Or with zero budget, how couldyou still approach it?
Sometimes in these processes youcan use examples like if you
were Tinkerbell, how would yousolve this problem?
So these are all just designedto free up and open up some
(21:05):
creative thinking you can thenask questions about okay, so
we've come up with some of thesestrategies.
They look a little bit zanywhat would have to be true to
make them work?
And that wording, that phrase,what would have to be true can
be really helpful.
To stay on the positive,because it's so easy to knock
(21:27):
down ideas, and often ideas theymight be terrible, but there's
a 10% of that idea which is agem.
So, asking those questions whatwould have to be true?
And then experimenting andprototyping.
Sometimes we get so caught inthe weeds that we never get out
the other side.
So it's really important tobecome action oriented and just
(21:51):
give something a go in a smallscale, maybe just with one class
, maybe just for for 10 weeks,maybe do a learning sprint, um,
and then, and then review andevaluate and persevere and then
adapt and change and scale.
So so those would be just someideas around.
How would you go about sensingthe future and supporting your
(22:14):
school leadership team or yourteachers to do that?
Drew (22:18):
Yeah, I love the Boppet analogy example and also the
thinking around budget, which isvery a space at the moment that
school leaders are grapplingwith in the New South Wales and
more than likely Australiancontext, with governments having
to cut back.
Where you talked about well,what if you had an unlimited
(22:39):
budget?
What would actually change?
It's changing that thinkingWell, if you'd had no resources,
could you still deliver thesame outcome?
And framing that makes peoplereflect and think about well,
what is possible here?
Could I do that and is thatactually going to?
(22:59):
If I did have an unlimitedbudget, would it be able to
achieve the desired outcome thatwe would like be able to
achieve the desired outcome thatwe would like?
I'm moving to seizing momentumnow for progress, which was
another theme that came through.
Seizing momentum is vital forprogress, as you mentioned in
(23:20):
your book.
What advice do you have forschool leaders to be more
proactive and to effectivelymanage their time to embrace new
ways of working?
Rosie (23:31):
Well, of course I'm careful to preach too much on
this, because we all haveAchilles' heels right.
We talk in the book about thethree Ps, which sometimes is a
helpful frame for some peoplewhen they're thinking about time
management, frame for somepeople when they're thinking
(23:51):
about time management.
So the three Ps aroundprioritization, around
proactivity, and then the Pthat's less helpful is
procrastination, and probablyall of us can relate to at least
one of those as areas ofstrengths or areas of weakness.
If you look at some of theideas that Stephen Covey's put
(24:11):
out about that, he's got thislovely analogy of imagine if you
had a glass jar and you've gotto fit in some big rocks and
some small rocks and some tinylittle pebbles.
How would you go about doingthat?
And the obvious answer is well,you're going to start by
putting in the big rocks, aren'tyou?
Because then, after you've gotthe big rocks in, then you can
(24:32):
put the little pebbles aroundand the little grits around, and
they'll still fit in.
And the analogy is about it'simportant to sometimes to tackle
those big things.
Drew (24:42):
Our association is a big Covey comfort for our listeners
would really be able to relateto that big rock analogy that
you said.
It's such a powerful tool and,for those who haven't seen the
video, I highly recommend toYouTube that.
It's a really classic exampleof, well, what are your
priorities that you're puttingin here?
Rosie (25:06):
So I know I'm guilty sometimes of having my to-do
list and I like to tick off theeasy things and I've got a
colleague who I really admireand what he does is he starts
the morning and looks at thebiggest, trickiest job that he
really doesn't want to do, buthe knows it's important and he
gets that one done first that hereally doesn't want to do but
(25:28):
he knows it's important and hegets that one done first.
It's such a lesson for me I trymy best to emulate.
I'm not perfect on it.
In terms of other strategies,there's some interesting work by
Peter DeWitt, who's obviouslyfamous in his work in EdWeek,
and he's written a book recentlyabout decluttering and
(25:50):
recognizing the need tochallenge what we're doing and
how we're spending our time,rather than just piling on extra
things to do and somehow try tobe superhuman and managing it
in extra hours afterwards Reallyquestioning what meetings are
we having and how regularly, anddo I need to be involved in
them?
What do I do on a weekly basisthat I could let go of and
(26:14):
delegate, and so on.
So this notion of declutteringis an interesting one.
We did a few bits of researchfor the book.
One of them was a survey thatwe did in collaboration with APA
, the Australian PrimaryPrinciples Association.
We were surveying principals onhow they spend their time.
(26:35):
Amongst other things he askedfolk to let us know what were
the top three things that weretaking up their time on a
typical week.
So just kind of quoting fromthe book here we have 73% of
principals saying performinginternal admin tasks is one of
those top three that just takeup a huge amount of time in the
(26:57):
week.
But if you compare that to,only 27% of principals said that
raising the quality of teachingand learning was one of those
three that were the top threetime consumers in the week.
So that's a bit sobering.
Drew (27:15):
Very much so, and I wouldn't say it's unsurprising.
Were you surprised by thatfinding Rosie?
Rosie (27:25):
No, not at all, not at all, not at all.
But it's people being honestand people doing the very best
work that they can do.
But it's so easy to get tied upin some of those little rocks.
Drew (27:44):
Yeah, and the book extracted the example of a
principal grappling with that.
How they could actually.
They know that they would like,they know the impact of
supporting their teachers andbeing in classrooms, but they
needed a framework of how, howcan I, what is my purpose in
getting into the classroom andthen what are the questions I'm
(28:08):
going to ask?
And through coaching, they wereable to unpack that and work
through that little tips, suchas having their admin staff
block out.
This time in my calendar, it'sa non-negotiable time I.
This is the priority that I'mtrying to achieve and, over as
(28:31):
you go, said before it's.
These things aren't instantfixes, but if they're done
through habit formation andpeople watch, and then they
could see.
And then in that in the exampleof the book, there was not sure
what time period it was.
However, the end result wasachieved.
(28:51):
They were able to get intoclassrooms and the goal was to
improve student learningoutcomes and they were able to
do that.
But that didn't happen viaaccident.
Rosie (29:02):
No, I mean, that's the advantage of some of these
people who are case-studded inthe book.
They've been accessing coachingand what that coaching has
forced them to do in the bestpossible supportive way is to
just slow down and stop for anhour and reflect on what feels
most important, that they coulddo differently, and then, of
(29:23):
course, agree how to enact thatpractically.
So think through, in this case,how this school leader was
going to go and visit classroomsand do some classroom
observations and feedback andthen, a month later, come back
(29:50):
to your coach to just make surethat you find the time in the
month to give it a go so you canreflect on how it went with
your coach.
Drew (30:00):
That's the beauty of coaching you get these kind of
monthly conversationsconversations, that accountable
moment of what you committed topreviously and what were the
actions that you did to helpensure that that accountability
is tracked in what you'veachieved.
And as a result of that example, the whole school and teachers
(30:25):
seem to buzz around the fact ofthe principal is in the
classroom, they're supportingand so forth, and people
listening going.
That's a pipe dream, like I'mso busy.
As you go back to the research,73% quite frightening is in
administration.
Now, administration is veryimportant.
(30:47):
That's an important part ofbeing in a principal, with
budgets and timetables and soforth.
But even that shift of, say, 5%or 10%, and shifting that 20%,
7% above that figure would beand the results would be amazing
.
So, yeah, I see so manyadvantages and practical
(31:08):
examples that for peoplelistening to our podcast suggest
reading through those examplesto get inspired by the how.
Because it's the how, rosie, Ithink it's an easy fix to say in
common conversation we're busy,everyone's busy, always busy.
(31:29):
But what is productive?
Busy and it goes back to well,what is the purpose?
I'm going to shift, if we can,to presence and self-awareness.
In the book, messy Leadershiphighlights the importance of
developing your presence foreffective leadership.
How can school leaders developgreater self-awareness and
(31:50):
confidence to overcome personalbarriers and lead effectively,
so to stop that impostersyndrome which is mentioned as
well.
Rosie (31:59):
So the Y, in my point of view, is the most important of
M-E-F-S-Y, m-e-c and it's soimportant that in our MESI
programs we actually start withthe Y.
You'd imagine that in a MESIprogram you have five sessions
on M-E-S-S-Y in coaching orworkshops, but actually our MESI
(32:20):
programs start with the Ybecause Y is all about you and
your leadership and yourconfidence, self-awareness, your
presence and and it's criticalit's.
It's been researched over andover again how, how pivotal
educational leadership is in aschool for the success of those,
(32:42):
those students in the school.
And what we find as coaches isthat self-confidence is a really
massive issue and that comesout in a coaching session,
because coaching is confidentialand it's not with a colleague
down the road, it's not withyour director of educational
(33:02):
leadership, it's with anexternal, confidential coach
where people can actually openup and talk about the truth.
So we find that confidence isone of the very top issues that
people seek coaching support on,as well as things like
difficult conversations andengaging others and stretching
(33:23):
and building others' capabilityand talent.
So it's good.
First of all, it's probablyencouraging for those reading
the Messy Leadership book torealize that they're not
possibly the only ones and thatconfidence hits education
leaders at all levels, so fromaspiring or emerging leaders
(33:44):
right through new principals,experienced principles and
directors of educationalleadership Dells.
This is a human trait.
In the book we talk about mindtraps being really critical.
So being aware of what negativepatterns of self-talk can catch
(34:06):
you out we call those mindtraps and what you can do to
just soften those and getyourself out of a spiral of
negative thinking.
Maybe you've been triggered bysomething and you're in a less
resourceful state.
So we offer some practicaltools that our coaches use, that
(34:27):
you can also coach yourselfthrough or you can coach
colleagues through, to help youself-unhook from that negative
spiral of thinking, unhook fromthe mind traps, and find a bit
of a more balanced perspective.
Drew (34:42):
That self-doubt.
It's a human trait.
It doesn't matter what levelpeople are at.
It's a human trait ofself-doubt and confidence can
spiral down, but it can alsospiral up as well, which is,
again, part of being human.
So, through the book, gettinginto the MindTrap, or through
(35:05):
the mind trap framework, leaderscan be coached through whatever
mindset they're in and becoached into, let's hope a more
positive framework that theycould then achieve their goals
and aspirations and valuesbecause, as I said, they were
(35:28):
selected.
Go back to what they have.
Someone else has seen them as aleader.
So those listening, going ifyou have that lack of confidence
or experiencing that forwhatever reason, remember they
were chosen to be a leader andlead their school by whether it
was a panel, by their director.
(35:50):
Someone else saw leadershipthrough them.
So other peoples have seen that.
So, yeah, some really goodmessages are coming through and
really good frameworks, rosie aswell, really practical.
I'm going to move to.
The book also emphasizes theneed for school leaders to
address equity and inclusion,which is so important.
(36:14):
How can leaders actively worktowards eliminating educational
inequalities and ensuring equityaccess to resources for all
students?
Rosie (36:25):
What I don't want to do is give a glib answer to this,
because this is a deep andimportant question.
What I would say is that thereare aspects of messy that really
speak to this.
There's a need to build a reallysensitive cultural awareness,
(36:46):
and some of those tools aroundemotional connection can help to
build those trustingrelationships with different
cultures in the community.
There's a need to know yourself,so the why in terms of
self-awareness in your presencecan help you be more aware of
(37:06):
some of the unconscious biasesthat get in the way of you being
an inclusive leader.
Then there's a need to havethat really strong sense of
shared purpose, so what we wouldcall the M the making meaning
such that it's really clear inyour school community the focus
(37:31):
on students and what you'retrying to achieve.
I remember I was talking to asuperintendent in Canada, so a
superintendent like an educationdirector responsible for a
network of schools, and we'retalking about how does he cope
with some very tricky politicsin the community and how does he
(37:52):
make decisions in that context,and he was explaining how.
What's really important is toalways be been really clear that
(38:13):
I've made it in the interestsof students, not of particular
individual teachers maybe, whohave a strong voice or whatever,
but it's been made front andcenter, really clearly in the
interests of students and, as ofall students, in terms of
inclusion.
Drew (38:32):
It goes back to the core values of why.
What is your why and what isthe decision that you have made
as a leader and throughunderstanding your why quoting
Sinek, here, simon Sinek is, ifyou know your why, sinek, here,
simon Sinek is, if you know yourwhy you can justify how you
have, in this case, you'dutilize your equity funds or
(39:06):
spend.
Equity is such an interestingyet complex area to explore.
Let's move to coaching andmentoring now One of your
passions, and I'm really hookedin the coaching space and seeing
the impact it has.
Coaching and mentoring ishighlighted in your book as
significant for leadershipdevelopment, and we've discussed
this before, rosie.
But what role does coaching andmentoring play in developing
(39:28):
effective school leaders and howcan schools implement these
practices?
Rosie (39:34):
So the first thing I'd say is that coaching and
mentoring are often put together, but they're actually really
different, they're reallydistinct and maybe in the
education sector that's lessunderstood that distinction.
In the education sector, that'sless understood that
(40:02):
distinction.
So mentoring really is therefor somebody new coming into a
role to be supported by someonemore experienced principals,
principal mentors who can sharetheir experience, share some
expertise, be there for moralsupport.
Now, that's really important,particularly when you're new
into a role.
But that is different fromprofessional leadership coaching
(40:27):
.
So people don't realize thatcoaching is a profession and our
coaches have been full-timecoaches for a decade or more and
that means that they're skilledand trained up and accredited
in being able to build yourleadership capability, give you
some really practical strategiesthat will help you to address
(40:48):
immediate problems but will alsobuild up your leadership
practice, widen your toolkit forthe future.
The other differences betweencoaches and mentors is that
mentors tend to be within thesystem and and that gives them
really good understanding ofcontext.
But the disadvantage is thatyou don't want to pull on too
(41:12):
much of their time becausethey're also often busy.
They may be leading schoolsthemselves and it's difficult to
feel like you're having atotally confidential
conversation.
If you're talking to somebodywho's running the school down
the road, you know it's a smallsystem and eventually you'll be
(41:33):
looking for promotion somewherethey may be on the interview
panel.
So it is difficult to be trulyvulnerable and to talk about
some of these issues aroundconfidence, for example, that we
were raising later.
That come up again and again incoaching conversations, which
maybe haven't come up previouslyin your career because you've
been just a little bit moreguarded in what you want to
(41:54):
share.
Drew (41:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
The confidentiality is such akey component to the piece and
also the fact that it's comingfrom external.
You said coming internal coulddeliver results, such as a
mentoring process, but there'salso the balance that they're
(42:18):
also running schools or they'rebusy people doing other
particular tasks in leadership,so to speak, in the system where
, through BTS Spark is theirexternal, they're very
experienced, theirconfidentiality and it also
gives that level ofaccountability that no one else
(42:39):
needs to know, which is such anadvantage that's coming through
clearly.
Rosie (42:46):
Yeah, so your coach is just there, just for you.
It's the ultimate inpersonalized learning and
support.
Drew (42:54):
We're moving now to balancing instructional and
transformational leadership.
That is a mouthful there initself.
Can we just unpack thedifference between instructional
and transformational leadership?
First, Rosie.
Rosie (43:10):
So I believe this is a real false dichotomy because
nobody would argue that as aschool leader or as a school
principal, your role is to raisethe quality of teaching and
learning and ensure that yourchildren have the best possible
experience.
So of course that's front andcenter, top priority.
(43:33):
Nobody would debate that andtypically that's called
instructional leadership.
So leading for that, that'sinstructional leadership.
Maybe People kind of typifytransformational leadership as,
oh, it's about creating a visionand engaging people in that.
(43:54):
So that's the human side ofleadership and people maybe call
that transformationalleadership.
But you can't have one withoutthe other.
Sometimes systems have tried todo this by having a relentless
focus, say, on improving studentattainment in literacy and
numeracy.
So all professionaldevelopment's just focused on
(44:17):
that and very quickly they'verealized that you can't achieve
that without also helping tobuild people's capability in
working with colleagues andcoaching others to adopt new
literacy and numeracy strategies.
So if you've got any kind ofchange agenda to improve, then
(44:38):
you need to factor in the needto get people on board.
They're making meaning and haveshared purpose, to engage them
and help them, to support themthrough that and give them
feedback on how they're doing.
So inevitably you've got allthe human sides of the
transformational leadership.
In the book there's a prefaceby Patsy Sauberg and he speaks
(45:01):
to this and he says there'snever been a greater need for
creating a shared vision forschool improvement than after
the pandemic.
So this isn't something thatwas a phase and isn't needed
anymore.
So we would argue that you needinstructional leaders who are
(45:26):
great at driving change andbringing people with them in
their community, and thereforethey need to have
transformational leadership andhuman leadership qualities too.
Drew (45:32):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely Well said in unpacking those two
frameworks there, Rosie.
They do go hand in hand.
So how can school leadersbalance these demands and create
lasting change?
Rosie (45:50):
and create lasting change .
Well, I think this speaks tothe need to create that shared
vision, so the making meaning,and then be bold enough to have
those possibly courageousconversations to really ensure
that people are held to account,that everyone's continuously
(46:13):
improving their practice andtherefore teaching and learning
in the school can continue toimprove.
It speaks to the need to beinnovative what we were talking
about in terms of the S, thesense in the future and be
proactive, which is the seizingmomentum, and be able to lead
(46:34):
all of that, which is the why.
So we've got a framework thatdoes speak to that need and
gives you some real practicaltools to balance the
instructional leadership and thetransformational leadership in
a sensible number of hours inthe day.
Drew (46:51):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely Well said.
Look, it's getting so manyfantastic reviews.
It's well regarded within, wellresearched, clearly
evidence-based For listeners.
Considering messy leadership,obviously the author, he is
speaking.
Where would you guide themthrough?
(47:12):
There's references on thewebsite.
Was there any particularstarting point that you would
say for educational leadersreally hooked on this messy
leadership concept?
Where would you point themtowards?
Rosie?
Rosie (47:32):
So if listeners are keen and a bit inspired and curious
to find out more, then I wouldreally encourage them to pursue
that, pursue that interest andinvest in themselves.
That could be as simple asgoogling bts spark, messy
leadership and and looking atthe web page, which has got lots
(47:53):
of ideas around how toimplement messy leadership.
On on the web page you've gotlinks to amazon where you can
obviously buy a copy of the book.
I'll probably get a cent or twofrom that.
Might be buy me a cup of teaeventually, but what's important
there is that what we're tryingto do is obviously share these
(48:16):
strategies On the websites.
On the Messy Leadership BTSSpark webpage there's also a
toolkit.
You can download that for freeBecause BTS Spark is a
(48:40):
not-for-profit.
We're just interested ingetting some of those ideas out
there and practically used ineveryday conversations and
become more confident, morecapable leaders for their school
communities.
Then I would encourage them tothink seriously about accessing
some support.
That can be through one-on-onecoaching, a program or working
(49:01):
with school leadership teamsthrough a workshop series or
group coaching program.
You'll see on the BTS Bar, ourMessy Leadership page at the
bottom.
There are several MessyLeadership programs there and
available at not-for-profitprices.
Just you can see from the bookwe've got lots of examples of
leaders benefiting from workingwith a professional leadership
(49:24):
coach, and your listeners couldbe those people too, who have
the support they need to growtheir leadership practice.
Drew (49:33):
Yeah, yeah, well said, rosie.
Really practical and reallycurrent research relevant to the
post-pandemic world that we areworking through and the ethos
of non-profit but practicaltools that people could explore.
Going to BTS Spark, looking atthe frameworks, picking up the
(49:56):
book, listing and taking away.
There are so many practicaltakeaways in the book that our
listeners I'd encourage you tolisten to and also really
consider coaching in terms ofthe impact and the research.
Going back to the four greatestcoaching conversations, where
we started our discussion pointis it does have impact coaching
(50:20):
and how that works through andit's not, as we said in our
previous podcast, all light andfluffy.
It's based on over 20 000conversations and a framework
and the confidentiality partthrough our discussion today is
really comes through.
For me and also, hopefully, ourlisteners, in terms of that is
(50:42):
so, so crucial in terms ofsharing what is your struggles
and what.
How would you like to achievethat?
So, rosie Connor, always apleasure.
Thank you for your time.
Rosie (50:55):
Thanks, Drew.
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