April 1, 2025 • 61 mins
What if dreaded "difficult conversations" could transform into your most powerful leadership tool? In this enlightening episode, Rob Stones shares his expertise on performance and coaching conversations, revealing how the right approach can dramatically enhance staff engagement and effectiveness.
Rob challenges the traditional view of performance management by introducing a framework where every conversation—whether addressing behavior outside acceptable boundaries, providing feedback, or coaching for growth—becomes an opportunity to inspire better performance. The secret? A future-focused mindset that illuminates possibilities rather than dwelling on past mistakes.
"If your intention is to slap them down and discourage them, that'll work," Rob explains. "But it'll work to wreck their motivation." Instead, he guides us through practical approaches that honor staff members' values and positive self-image while still addressing performance issues directly.
One of the most powerful insights comes with the "cow in the ditch" metaphor: when something goes wrong, first fix the immediate problem, then understand how it happened, and finally implement changes to prevent recurrence. This simple framework shifts conversations from blame to continuous improvement.
The episode offers practical wisdom for school leaders at all levels who want to transform their approach to staff performance. Whether you're struggling with challenging staff issues or simply want to elevate your leadership communication, Rob's thoughtful strategies provide a roadmap for conversations that energize rather than deplete your team. His two-day Performance Conversations workshop builds on these principles, offering structured practice in a supportive environment.
Are you ready to replace anxiety with confidence when approaching difficult conversations? This episode might just change how you lead forever.
Links and References:
To view our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning
To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Season 3 of Professional Learnings, the
New South Wales PPA EducationalLeadership Podcast.
I'm Drew Janicki, back as yourhost for a brand new season.
It's great for you to be withus as we continue this journey
of learning, leading and drawinginspiration from the incredible
insights of our amazing guests.
(00:26):
Let's dive into our latestepisode.
Today, our guest is Rob Stones,who joins us to discuss his new
professional learning offeringPerformance and Coaching
Conversations.
Rob shares insights onenhancing staff performance
through effective performanceand coaching strategies.
(00:48):
This is a critical area formany school leaders.
But before we dive into theconversation, let's hear first
an extract from Rob to set thecontext for today's podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Hello, I'm Rob Stones .
I'm here to invite you to joinme in a workshop program over
two days called PerformanceConversations.
I'm passionate about peoplehaving really skillful
performance conversations.
In their role as a leader,every conversation you have with
(01:33):
a colleague or teammate is anopportunity for you to enhance
their performance, to encouragethem to work towards your shared
purpose and to confidently takeon these conversations with
every opportunity that arises.
So when I talk aboutperformance conversations, the
(01:53):
one that everybody thinks aboutis the kind of archetypal,
difficult conversation wherethere's an issue with a staff
member and you have to try andresolve that issue.
I call them boundariesconversations often because it's
when people are outside theboundaries of acceptable
practice in your school.
(02:15):
They're only difficult becausewe don't know how to approach
them.
If you approach them the rightway, if you use the skills that
I can teach you in this workshop, then they'll no longer be
difficult, but just routineconversations and the other
kinds of conversations are allrelated.
They're the kinds ofconversations where we want to
give somebody feedback that willenhance their performance and
(02:39):
not just sound like a you'vedone very well conversation.
We want to be able to takeconversations with someone who
knows they need some skillenhancement and use a coaching
conversation in order to keepbuilding their confidence to try
to do better in whateverthey're trying to improve.
(03:01):
And all these conversations, asyou'll learn in this workshop,
are related.
They turn around half a dozenkey skills that you will if you
come to the workshop.
You'll practice, understand howthey work and how they work
together and walk out of thetwo-day workshop feeling
confident that you'll be able tohandle any performance
(03:23):
conversations that you have anopportunity to handle any
performance conversations thatyou have an opportunity to have
with another colleague.
Hope to see you there.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Okay, well, rob Stones, welcome to our podcast
today.
It's fantastic for you to bewith us.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Yeah, I'm really lookingforward to this discussion
around performance conversationsand the work that and what the
messaging is for those listeningin terms of what is a
(04:02):
performance conversation andwhat would the professional
learning look and sound and feellike.
So, looking forward to today'sdiscussion, rob, I will start
with why.
Can we start with the why interms of why do we need
performance conversations?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I guess it comes out of my experience and deeply held
belief that any conversationbetween a school leader and a
staff member is an opportunity,and the opportunity is to
enhance performance.
If we're careless about it,then conversations can have
various outcomes.
A school leader is thinking,every time they have a
(04:45):
conversation with a staff memberor a colleague what are the
ways in which I can make surethat the result of that is
they're more committed, moreengaged, clearer about the work
we're doing together andaltogether more empowered and
(05:07):
enabled in order to do theirwork well?
So if you think about the kindsof performance conversations
cue slide.
So often people think of it asa corrective conversation or
what I call a boundaryconversation.
The leader is concerned aboutsomething that the staff member
(05:36):
colleague is doing or not doing.
Okay, so that's one kind ofperformance conversations.
Another kind is a coaching ormentoring conversation, where
the staff member actually islooking for improvement.
And the third kind really is afeedback conversation, where
you've watched something orheard about something the staff
(05:59):
member has done and you want togive them feedback, but you want
to give them feedback in a waythat will enhance their future
performance as well as let themknow that you approve of this
one.
So all these exchanges have thepotential to be to be growthful
and help staff members focus on, you know, whatever the
(06:22):
direction we're going in and thevalues that we're trying to
pursue, any of those things-yeah, that's a really
interesting in terms of, as aleader, listening and those
listening would have hadcoaching conversations, would
have had mentoring conversationsor would have feedback
(06:46):
conversation.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
What's the key to that differentiation, Rob?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Well, the coaching conversation is essentially the
staff member is engaged withtheir own performance and they
are asking advice or or seekingto pursue some improvement and
you coach them or mentor them,depending.
(07:16):
Coaching is really just helpingthem work out their agenda.
Mentoring will include somesome advice and experience
sharing.
Um the other conversations, youknow the corrective or boundary
conversation.
You're calling for theconversation because you're
concerned about something, butthe trick is to not make that a
(07:41):
top down, one, up on downup,one-down blaming conversation,
but to turn that into just asmuch of an enhancement to
performance.
So in a corrective conversation, what we're doing is we're
trying to take the person'scurrent performance okay, except
(08:03):
that's a given that you knowyou're concerned about it, but
you're looking for anopportunity to make sure that
the future is very different anda feedback conversation very
similar.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
It sounds easy in theory, but what does that look
and sound and feel like inreality?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Well, surprisingly, apart from a few things, the two
conversations don't actuallysound much different, or the
three different conversationsdon't sound much different once
you understand the skillsinvolved, because they need to
(08:55):
be future-focused and they needto be relationship-focused and
they need to be positiveconversations.
So, whatever kind ofconversation it is, you're not
ever holding up a mirror to thepast and going no good or this
is bad or whatever, becausethey're discouraging
(09:17):
conversations.
What you're doing instead is,um, holding up a torch lighting
into the future and going.
Here's what it could be like.
Wherever you are at the moment,wherever you're starting from.
If you're at the moment becauseof something that's happened,
(09:39):
you're starting in a fairly badplace.
That's irrelevant.
That's just about what you didnow or in the past.
What we're concerned with ishow can you learn from that?
How can you take that into afuture improvement?
Speaker 1 (09:57):
So it's a mindset, it's an attitude, yeah very much
so.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, I think so.
It yeah very much so.
Yeah, I think so, and I thinkthat that the way you start
these conversations and yourintention is going to have a
strong influence on the outcome.
If your intention is to tosheet home a shortcoming, make
(10:30):
sure that the other person knowsthat they failed in one of
their key accountabilities,that'll go nowhere.
So, really, the first thing isstep one what do you want from
the conversation?
Do you want that staff memberto be a more useful, a more
enthusiastic, a more engagedperson in the future, or do you
want to spend some timediscouraging them?
(10:53):
Because you can do either.
If your intention is to slapthem down and discourage them,
that'll work.
But it'll work to wreck theirmotivation, to make them feel
bad, and very few people workharder and better if they're
(11:14):
feeling bad about their job.
So, step one what do you want?
If you want to make sure thatwhatever's happened, it's going
to get better in the future,start with that attitude.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, in terms of principals having those thinking
around those performanceconversations.
They might have been thinkingabout that for a while and the
angst in those conversations isall the how they're going to
react to that piece.
But what I've heard is notcoming into that conversation of
(11:53):
how they would react.
It's coming into theconversation of what you would
like yourself as a leader fromthat conversation.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yep, that's pretty much it Thinking about it.
We've all had both kinds ofconversations.
Well, most of us some of us areunfortunate They've only had
the blaming conversations fromtheir own leaders in the past,
but most of us have also hadleadership experience where
those people that they saw asvery important to their careers
(12:27):
their leaders instead ofspending any time talking about
what they'd done wrong, ask themabout what their own
self-evaluation was of whathappened and then turn that into
almost like a coachingconversation for how to improve
it in the future.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah, so, Rob, can you tell us further about these
conversation pieces so we canbreak them down further?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Well, I mean, I think I'll just focus on the one that
most people find most difficultis the difficult conversation,
because something has happenedand you have to address that in
some way, so you can't ignore it.
You have to think about how doyou want the person to feel as
(13:17):
they leave the conversation.
Do you want them to feel thatthey can work on their
improvement, that they can bemore effective in future, they
can be energized because of thatpossibility?
Or do you want them to be sadand feel reprimanded and all of
(13:43):
the things, all the emotionalside effects that being put down
or reprimanded brings with it?
So what we want from theseconversations is a person
finishing the conversation withus, leaving it smiling, knowing
(14:04):
we've got their back, knowingthat they're focused on a more
positive future.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I'm not saying that's easy, no, no, I'm hearing the
cynics in the listeners who saythis great sounds, fantastic,
rob.
All in theory.
However, in reality, I've had aconversation like this before
and we're back to feels likewe're back to square one with to
(14:33):
addressing similar behavior.
What advice do you have there?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I think that cynicism kind of undoes the whole
conversation, because you startfeeling that it will be
valueless and that all you cando is make sure the person knows
they've done something wrong.
But I think the important wayto think about it is that very
(15:04):
few people want to do badly.
Very few people enjoy theexchange of acrimony and feeling
that, right or wrong, theirboss feels they have done badly.
And if they do feel theconversation goes like that
(15:25):
they're going to really bedefensive, feel the conversation
goes like that they're gonnareally be defensive throughout
the conversation.
They're looking out for thefact that you're gonna threaten
to hurt them or that theiropinion of you is diminished and
that things are gonna go badlyin future.
So if you start theconversation with any hint of
(15:46):
that, okay, whether it's whetheryou're right that they've done
something really bad or you'rewrong, there is.
It's the future that matters,because unless you've got the
inclination and the power tosack them immediately, right,
this is a person you have towork with in the future.
Um, whether we're cynical aboutthat possibility or optimistic
(16:11):
makes a certain amount ofdifference, because you'll
communicate that.
If you can start out, let meknow.
Perhaps I can just give you anillustration.
Uh, one of my um of mycolleagues came to me.
He just had a terrible incidentwith a class where he ended up
(16:33):
screaming, basically at theclass and he used some words he
shouldn't have used and he wasright outside the boundaries,
you know, the shouting wasoutside the boundaries for me,
using bad language and so on.
So I just started by saying howwould you describe what
(16:56):
happened?
And he said oh well, you know,I shouted at him, you know, said
some things I regret now and soon and so forth.
Okay, okay, so if you could goback and redesign that moment
and think about what, if youwere living up to being the best
teacher, you could be in thatsame situation again.
(17:20):
Is there any way you couldchange that scenario?
And he said yes, of course Icould have done this and this
and this.
Okay.
So I said you know, I thinkthat our job.
Then, as we talk about this,you know, and as we acknowledge
that it wasn't reallyappropriate or so on, and that
(17:44):
there's lots of things that wecould be doing or saying that
would make it even worse, let'sjust focus on that I know I
could have done better bit andsee if we can figure out exactly
what you can do next timeyou're stressed by the either
(18:10):
classes apparent intransigenceand you're feeling emotionally
overwrought, turn on instead.
That'll create a better outcome.
So you may notice that I'mdoing exactly the same, putting
(18:33):
the same scenario to the teacheras I'm trying to put to us as
leaders.
Yes, we can awful eyes it aslong as we like, but the only
thing that matters is if you'rethere again, can we change
things?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah, and in terms of the professional learning in
that space, is that whatparticipants would experience
that time to be able to practicethe performance conversations?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
The workshop itself.
It will be largely aroundpeople experimenting with the
kind of language, the kind ofapproach that we want them to
use and that they can use in thefuture to make those
(19:30):
conversations really positive.
So all useful conversationshave these two elements they're
solution focused, they're futurefocused, they're opportunities
to start again.
Okay, and this is not a blackmark on the person's record.
(19:54):
Okay, this is a point wherethere's a choice to be made.
We can, I can, as a leader, canmake it a time for generating
more positive interactions withthis person in future, and the
teacher can use it as anopportunity to be more
(20:15):
productive and better capable ofdealing with the stresses of
their job.
And that's the fork in the road.
If we go one way, we can buildour communication with the
(20:36):
teacher, we can build ourrelationship with the teacher,
and if we go the other way, oneor both of us leaves the room
feeling resentful anddiscouraged.
Because here's the crucial thingthe alternative is not to have
a productive conversation.
The alternative is to have aconversation which is very much
(20:56):
one up, one down.
Okay, I'm telling you offbecause I'm in the role to tell
you off and you've done, donewrong and I'm going to make sure
you know that and does thatmake you, as a leader, feel good
?
My experience as a teacher isit never does, because you know
that, much as you can rant andrave in the moment, in the
(21:20):
future there's more difficultywith that person and with that
relationship.
We're not headed towards a goodsolution, we're headed towards
just the possibility of a repeatperformance, because we set it
up like that yeah, it's makingI'm hearing a really conscious
(21:42):
choice of that attitude, rob.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
When, when you are that fork in the road in terms
of how you do do respond, andthe and the default can be that
power over as what I heard is ais a choice that, as a leader,
and whether that's a behaviorthat has been learned or that's
something that, in terms of theprofessional learning that you
(22:05):
can teach, there is analternative, because some people
may think there is noalternative to that fork in the
road.
And what if something I guesshypothetically, what if
something has really gone badlywrong?
In terms of that space, what'syour?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
thinking there.
Look what people will leave.
This performance conversationsworkshop is not a magic wand.
Okay, I hope they'll leave witha clear understanding that
blame leads to defensiveness andavoidance of responsibility by
(22:43):
the teacher.
People rarely feel moreresponsible after they've been
chastised.
Okay, and whatever yourintention, it can end up like
that.
Someone who's not prepared totake any responsibility for
their behavior won't acknowledgethat they did the wrong thing,
(23:06):
however gently you put it tothem.
Doesn't think they need toimprove?
There's no way that there's amagic wand for that and there
are deep mental procedures forthat sort of stuff.
But that's not the place we'restarting from.
We're starting from okay, amistake has been made,
(23:36):
unfortunate and inappropriatebehavior has happened.
Okay, now do we pick the personup and point them to the right
direction and push them out intothe future?
Okay, or do we slap them aroundthe face metaphorically and
make sure they understand what abad person they've been?
And the other person has achoice of this.
(23:59):
They can choose to work with uswhen we extend that
conversation, and my experienceis that almost everybody will.
Okay, if you're dealing with atrue sociopath, they won't know
they've done anything wrong, sothere's no way we can make much
(24:21):
progress there.
But most teachers are notsociopaths.
They're people who have.
They're people who have areally good intention, but they
are in a stressful job wherefrustration is occasionally
leads to some inappropriatebehavior, and I think that and I
(24:43):
think that's how we picture itthis is a person who fell away
from their usual predispositionto do the best they can and the
circumstances got the better ofthem.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, I like what I'm seeing on the screen here is
it's either a lose-losesituation, a win-loss situation,
a lose-win or a win-win.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, and you know I suppose we're both.
You know everybody thinkswin-win is pretty much a fantasy
, but in these situations it'sreally.
If we can feel that either Isuppose we both.
You know everybody thinkswin-win is pretty much a fantasy
, but in these situations it'sreally.
If we can leave theconversation feeling the person
knows what to do in the future,that's a win for us, it's a win
for them because they know whatto do in the future.
Okay, power over conversationlooks like a win for us and lose
(25:40):
for the other.
But it actually always turnsinto a lose-lose because it
doesn't take away all of theproblems that will occur with
that staff member in the future.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Let's continue on.
We've got the key to difficultkinds of performance
conversations the key todifficult kinds of performance
conversations.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
So I guess what I'm saying is you treat them very
like coaching conversationsbecause hopefully, if you can
make that switch to focusing onwhat to do instead, then they
end up enhancing performance.
To do instead, then they end upenhancing performance.
Bring the staff back into theshared purpose of the whole
thing.
It'll build great enthusiasm.
(26:30):
It can be surprisinglyinspiring for a teacher or
assistant principal, deputyprincipal, to have the
conversation with the boss aboutsomething they didn't do okay,
and yet they leave theconversation with this real
sense of okay.
(26:52):
I've got the capability to domuch better next time and next
time I came in that situation Ifeel I can handle it now because
I know what to do.
So so I kind of look back on myown experience.
I was a young phys ed teacherworking as the only phys ed
(27:19):
teacher at that time in the inthe lower school.
Um, you know big Londoncomprehensive and there were
lots of of issues.
Um, I um did something prettystupid when one of the couple of
the kids did something wrongand I made all the the children
(27:43):
run until they were exhaustedand kept shouting at them and
you know doing that old SergeantMajor routine.
Okay, and my deputy principal,who was a great guy, a
malefiction, and he took measide and he said how do you
(28:05):
want those kids to remember you?
I was the question he asked me.
I said, well, well, because agood teacher, I suppose.
So he said, if you had to runthat scenario again, got in that
situation again and the mainthing that you wanted from it is
(28:25):
for those kids to see you as agood teacher.
Would you have done somethingdifferent?
Oh, I was convicted straightaway.
I was, of course I would.
Okay, he said well, what wouldyou have done?
I can't remember what Ianswered, but I know that
whenever I answered, it meantthat every time I was getting
(28:47):
frustrated by the behavior ofthe class, I thought about that
in the future and I didsomething completely different.
He had an inspirationalinfluence on my life and my
teaching performance because theway he conducted that one
conversation.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah, and it stuck with you ever since, hasn't it?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Absolutely yeah, so hopefully that became part of
how I tried to do things.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Because of the way it made you feel.
What I heard is the way inwhich he approached you.
He, in the position, could havecome to you completely as a
power over in terms of how thatwould be approached, but he came
to you in a way that yeah, howdid that feel?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah good, and also the fact that I know that some
of the student's parentscomplained to him and I never
got any backlash from that, andespecially because I then worked
hard to change my relationshipwith that class.
Whereas it could have been theother thing he could have thrown
(29:57):
me under the bus, he could havebrought in parents to tell me
how bad they felt he could havetaken some kind of discipline.
The negative the thing is wecould all think of a scat of
negative things to kind of do topeople.
But I think what we have toremind ourselves, and remind
(30:18):
ourselves every time somethinglike this comes up, is the only
person who can change thebehavior is the person
themselves.
Um, we can't change thebehavior.
So if we want them to choose abetter behavior next time, want
them to choose to be the bestthey can be next time, we have
(30:39):
to have to try and persuade themto look at it in a different
way and make that decision forthemselves.
A lot of the difficulty thatprinciples deal with is the
(31:00):
cultural belief that people canbe made to do as they're told by
fear and threats.
But a very wise man, peterDrucker, said many years ago if
we want our staff to do reallywell and to give their very best
(31:26):
.
We have to treat them as ifthey're volunteers, right?
Not people we had power over,but people who were just
extending their service.
Really wise words, becausethat's actually how it is.
You know, we look around at thestaff members who are
performing in exceptional way inour, in our school.
(31:49):
They're volunteering to do that.
There's nothing in the rulesthat says that you have to do
that.
They all go above and beyond.
So it's that kind of mindsetwe're trying to seed in a person
that we're talking to everytime we talk to them.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Yeah, absolutely, rob , and let's continue with what
is the key to all performanceconversations.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Well, just, you will have heard me talk in values,
heavy language all the time.
Focus on the positive intentand the staff members picture of
themselves as a good person.
We, none of us, want to thinkof ourselves as a bad person,
and it's the positive valuesthat we need to talk about.
(32:44):
So you know the staff memberwho you know.
Simple example of a staffmember who's habitually late,
and we can bang on about themhabitually late, and we can.
You know they'll blame theirenvironment, they'll blame their
environment, they'll blame thecircumstances for their
(33:09):
behaviour, and so on and soforth.
So that's the bottom of thatpyramid of influence.
But if we want them to make achange, if we want them to focus
on the important things, Idon't talk to them about being
how many times they've been lateon.
(33:29):
I'm talking to them about like,what is the?
What do you believe about thevalue of punctuality and, um,
certainty for the students andyour colleagues?
And we have a completelydifferent conversation.
Then, right, honestly, theyjust flips it completely so that
(33:52):
them being defensive abouttheir behaviors they talk about
well, you know.
So I most will say I do knowthat it's I shouldn't be trying
to be more punctual, but I getoverwhelmed by the circumstances
of my life or something likethat, and then we talk about we
have a coaching conversation oreven a mentoring conversation
(34:13):
that will help them to deal withthat.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
It's completely flipping, isn't it, with those
beliefs?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yep, and the thing about values and beliefs is they
influence our capabilities, ourbehaviors and how we manage the
environment on the person, sothat if we want this person to
leave our conversation going, Iam capable of doing better.
(34:49):
Then we have to work at thatlevel, not the level at which
they can come up with excuses.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
So it's really what I've heard is it's from the
leader's perspective to come inwith those values and belief and
before that, the vision, theiridentity, and then the values
and belief.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, so I mean the school's vision and the school's
sense of shared purpose arevery much part of the
conversation, rather than youforgot to do something.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
And then do we work through in the course.
Is there further frameworks tobeyond beliefs or beyond values
and beliefs?
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Very, very clear framework.
So you know it would be boringto put it here, but we step
people through a process, okay,so that you know you need a
process, you need to go.
Okay.
I start here.
In this conversation I askthese kind of questions.
I respond in this way if theother person becomes negative.
(36:01):
And so that structure, thoseframeworks, help you to practice
, because this is all yourworthwhile courses are about
practice.
In this course there's lots ofpractice in the course course
(36:23):
now.
That's why it extends over twodays and why we've got an
opportunity for practice over awhole range of scenarios.
People will be invited to bringtheir own scenarios to it.
People bring the conversationsthat they're dreading having or
know they did badly at, and wecan work through those and
(36:47):
rehearse them.
And then they leave with astructure so that they can
rehearse them back in theirworkplace.
And you know, rehearsal isreally important.
Whenever I had to have a reallychallenging conversation with
anybody, I would practice itwith another person first, often
(37:12):
one of my deputies or perhaps aperson's head of department or
his AP, so that we could justyou know, so I could hear what
it sounded like and we couldfine-tune it.
And in that situation it's easyto keep the structure because
you know you're practicing.
But then, once you run thestructure, once it's easy to do
(37:33):
it again.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And you're coming into the course, potentially
with people or people you don'tknow, but people at a similar
level, whether in an executivelevel or a principal level, who
have an unconscious bias towardsyour current situation that
you're working through and rob.
(37:57):
Where where does this piece fitin in terms of?
We have our as you are afacilitator for our art of
leadership master class and, ofcourse, we have the art of
leadership.
Where do you see this piecefitting in that, in that pl
framework?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I think it complements it.
We tried to embed the art ofleadership when we wrote it,
some time looking at andpracticing performance
conversations of all those threetypes, and in the masterclass
(38:35):
we do focus on those again, butin the context of, in both cases
, a very big program that coverslots of strategic and cultural
and so on differences.
It's hard to spend the time onit In this course.
It's two days solidly focusingon performance conversations.
(38:58):
We don't have to go to theother places.
I mean inevitably, peoplewho've been to the Art of
Leadership and done this courseask me some questions about how
it relates to other things andI'm happy to answer that
question, but I really try hardto focus on.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
this is a practice opportunity for you to leave
here with enhanced skills yeah,yeah, absolutely, and and that
time to be able to do that withpractice, so you can improve
those skills.
It's not something I thinkthat's not necessarily practice
(39:37):
as well or as much as we wouldlike until that feeling,
overwhelming feeling, comesthrough and we go.
I wish I had time to practicethis conversation because now I
need to dig myself out throughwhatever situation the person
may be in.
And, in terms of going back towhere it does fit in, I heard
(39:58):
you could come in withoutout-of-leadership course
experience or you could actuallyhave out-of-leadership
experience and come into this.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, it doesn't make any difference.
I mean, the course is focusedon all entry levels.
You know whether you're aconfident um a person who's
confident because they thinkthey've got pretty good um
communication and conversationskills anyway and you've learned
(40:32):
a lot through some course, likethe art of leadership you've
done, or whether you're you'reidentifying, as this is
something I really need to learn.
I don't know much about it.
Um, the course is invitationalenough um, so you can come in at
any level, so it's a reallysafe environment.
Um, you know the present.
(40:53):
Some present there'll be.
There will be somepresentations in the large group
, but lots of activity in smallsupportive groups who get to
know each other really wellduring the course of the two
days.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, through your courses I see so many
connections, not just during thecourse but beyond, which is the
power of that connection piecethat brings people together.
So if we go and focus on ourvalues piece, a few people spend
if you can continue on wherethat values piece fits in
(41:35):
performance.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Well, whatever type of conversation you're having
with someone, if the intentionof the conversation is to
improve their performance okay,then it has to focus on
something they value doing.
Okay, because what we do is, ifwe see value in doing something
, we will develop thecapabilities for it and learn
the behaviors.
It doesn't matter whether it'sa skill or capability that's
(42:02):
professional or one that's in anactivity or a hobby outside the
school.
If you're going to spend anytime on something, it'll only be
because you value doing things,because people don't spend the
time and energy cultivating abehavior or an interest they
don't value.
So we really do, yeah,absolutely.
(42:28):
So this kind of complements ourwhole approach.
We focus on the value andpeople respond to the value not
necessarily to us, but go, yeah,I really do think that's
important, or I really do wantto be seen as that person.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Okay, let's move forward, Rob, in terms of what's
some other key messages forpeople listening in curious
about?
Tell me more, Rob, aboutperformance conversations and
coaching conversations.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
I think one of the things that I notice is that a
lot of people treat feedbackconversations as kind of you've
all done very well conversationsand don't think about how
critical the staff member orcolleagues own self-evaluation
(43:28):
is.
So if I, if I'm, if I'm havingto walk past a classroom and
stop for a moment, I'm reallyimpressed by what the teacher is
doing.
I can tell the teacher howimpressed I was and that's a pat
(43:49):
on the head, but I can start aconversation instead going.
Okay, I was really impressedabout the way in which you held
all of the kids' attention andgot them absolutely focused on
the key concept there, about theway in which you held all of
the kids' attention and got themabsolutely focused on the key
concept there.
Tell me a little bit more aboutwhat you were doing and how you
(44:11):
were thinking about it.
Okay, so I'm asking every timethere's an external piece of
praise or feedback from me, it'san opportunity to say well,
what did you think?
And I suppose I learned thatvery early on, because I was a
(44:38):
deputy principal at one stage inmy career and my principal kept
telling me what a great job Iwas doing I didn't think I was
doing a great job at all.
I would have really liked tohave an honest conversation
about the things that I wasstruggling with, but a pat on
the head doesn't give you anyopportunity that all you can do
is go thanks, boss, um, and moveaway from it.
(45:00):
I would have liked him to sayum, you know that, for example,
about a way I took um a schoolassembly.
School assemblies were verydifficult to bun down me.
You were kind of in a room,kind of people who are older
would remember.
You stood on the top verandaand talked to the people in the
playground below you andcommunication was difficult.
(45:27):
So I did.
I was pretty good at gettingpeople to be quiet listening to
me, but I wasn't very good atengaging them in the things I
was saying, because the feedbackI got afterwards is, you know,
like Rob's delivered anothersermon, which is the feedback
from kids and my colleagues.
When I actually asked for it, um, now, from, uh, from my boss, I
(45:50):
would have liked a bit of howdo I do it differently?
Um, and if he'd asked me toself evaluate, I would have said
look, I've got, I've got, I'vegot them under control.
I don't think I'm communicatingwith them and lots of people
that I've given self-evaluationto, given given feedback to over
the years.
(46:10):
When I've invited them toself-evaluate, they really say
surprising things and thesurprising things really are
productive in the fact that itgenerates the conversation,
generates some thoughtfulconsideration of their
professionalism and skill andthe edges of their learning that
(46:36):
are so much more significantthan just patting everybody on
the head that are so much moresignificant than just patting
everybody on the head.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Yeah, I mean this could go in various forms.
That whole self-evaluationpiece is and you go back to that
classroom example and I hear asaying where don't step past the
standard that you would notaccept, and I'm sure you've
heard of that statement before,but it's not coming in at a
(47:08):
power over.
There's a difference in termsof how that approach could occur
, and that is through aself-evaluation process.
But you really, as a leader,you could set that climate
through this professionallearning opportunity to be able
to really see how you can get tothat self-evaluation point.
(47:29):
And what I heard is you werecraving that from your
perspective.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yep, you know.
People often point to theresearch which shows that most
teachers feel they don't getenough feedback on their
performance, and people oftentake that to mean they don't get
told enough about what's wrongor what could be improved about
(47:57):
their performance.
They're not looking for that.
Teachers are generallycognitively engaged in the work
they do, so when they say theywant feedback, they want
thoughtful feedback.
They want, if you like,critical feedback when they feel
(48:23):
they haven't done very well,accompanied by some coaching
feedback.
They want often straightcoaching feedback that gets an
opportunity.
How would you do it?
So?
That's when these thesebasically three layers of
conversation the criticalboundaries conversation, the
(48:44):
feedback conversation, thecoaching conversation all come
together and merge.
We as leaders often have to beclear about which conversation
we're involved in, but theteacher will learn from it
anyway If we do it well.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Yeah, and that's part of the practice, isn't it?
For seeing where you are at andbeing consciously, I should say
, aware of where that's sitting,in terms of what type of
conversation am I going into andwhat is the outcome that I
would like from thatconversation?
So, really, takeaways are beingreally present for when people
(49:28):
which is a skill set in itselfas well, if we move into now the
opportunities for performanceconversations, rob, can you tell
us further about?
Speaker 2 (49:40):
that when we have a performance conversation to give
our colleague positive feedback, if we take that extra step to
get them to self-evaluate, thewhole thing goes to a different
level.
So we're using our skills toencourage a colleague to
(50:02):
evaluate themselves and thestandard is their present best
okay, and what we're alwayswanting to encourage them is to
keep improving, keep growing,because I think that that's a
key task for the leader.
(50:23):
If I can look at my staff everyyear and think that for all of
my staff, I can't say I everremember a time when I could say
that, but that's theaspirational goal.
I can't say I ever remember atime when I could say that, but
that's the aspirational goal.
All of my staff, through thethings that I encourage them
(50:46):
with or the feedback I gave them, or the opportunity I gave them
to look at themselves in themirror, will learn something
that makes them a better teacherfor next year than they were
this year.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
I think that's what everyone would hopefully be in
the profession for trying tocontinue to improve their
performance, yep, but not at alevel of being berated or being
put down or having negativeself-thoughts about their
performance.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
No, I mean.
Eddie Shine used to say somereally interesting things about
learning and growing.
He says if you're learning tocatch up, it always feels
stressful.
Someone gives you theimpression you're behind, you
know you have things that youhave to learn in order just to
(51:39):
keep up with everybody.
That's not a growthfulexperience.
But if you're growing in orderto improve, to feel that your
own skills free from comparisonwith anybody else, your own
skills are being enhanced andgetting better, then you put
(52:01):
energy into it.
So that's, if you like, thepiece that some of our masters
sometimes forget.
Learning to catch up isn't good, and one of the things we
talked about frameworks, but oneof the things we you know I
(52:22):
talked about frameworks, but oneof the things that's included
here is the GLASA framework forperformance conversation.
As you know, I'm a choicetheory practitioner, teacher,
(52:45):
teacher, so I believe that thishas a has a great capacity to
give us the flexibility, once weunderstand the framework, to
tweak each performanceconversation depending on the
feedback you're getting from theperson, so that we're always
pointing towards enhancedperformance as the outcome.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Yeah, and it says here that powerful coaching
conversations are based onWilliam Glasser's reality
therapy.
For those unaware what isreality therapy by William
Glasser?
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Reality.
Therapy is a way of talking topeople so they take
responsibility for their ownbehavior and the quality of
their own behavior in the future, you know so it's a therapeutic
model when you're a counselorbut we're not counselors.
It's a marvelous, inspirationaland aspirational model for
(53:39):
helping people to, in everyconversation, elicit from the
other person what their idealwant, is what it is that they
would be if they were performingat the best they could be, and
(54:00):
help them to work towards that.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
Yeah, the choice theory, concept and reality
therapy is.
Is there a timeframe, rob, forthat to be mastered, or is that
based on one's own experience?
Speaker 2 (54:19):
No, well, in this course, all we can do is teach
the framework for realitytherapy, to give people a
framework to work from,mastering the psychology of
internal control, choice theory,all the skills that are based
(54:41):
on classes.
Work is something I'm stillworking on over 30 years, but
but I mean every.
Any opportunity just takes youfurther, okay, I mean we we most
of us want to do keep doingbetter at getting the things
(55:03):
that we want and need in anethical way to enhance our own
lives.
So that's a set of tools.
So there'll be some peoplewho've done some of Glasser's
work come to this and again,it's just an opportunity to take
(55:24):
it to a different level.
People who haven't come acrossGlasser's work will still get
plenty from the framework andmay be inspired to go and learn
some more.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
The work of William Glasser is truly remarkable for
those listening and for thosewho are aware of it.
Would agree let's continue withfinishing our conversation.
Further opportunities here thatyou can elaborate on with
Performance ConversationWorkshop.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
No, just really.
I think that it's aprofessional opportunity.
We're not sitting in front ofan expert reading slides In the
course.
It'll be an opportunity tobuild your personal skills.
(56:17):
It'll be an opportunity tobuild your personal skills, your
relaxed and collegialatmosphere, and to just to focus
on how do I get this kind ofmindset that enables me to
approach these conversations,how can I practice with people
who are supporting me and howcan I use it to create the
(56:44):
culture that I think we all want, which is that mistakes are
part of learning and we embracethem.
We don't get blamed for them,we just go on to improve.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
So if a mistake is made, what's the framework?
Speaker 2 (56:59):
So fix the immediate problem it's created, learn from
mistakes and then build bettersystems or new behaviours.
And I guess the most powerfulstatement I have ever heard of
that is the cow in the ditchmetaphor.
It helps me to really rememberthat there's a little story that
(57:23):
goes with it.
So Anne Mulcahy was a formerCEO of Xerox and she was at a
business meeting talking abouthow to deal with difficulties in
the business and an old farmerabout how to deal with
difficulties in the business,and an old farmer approached her
(57:48):
and he said look, when the cowfalls in the ditch, remember
three things First, get the cowout of the ditch, take action.
Second, work out how the cowgot into the ditch, learn from
it.
And third, do whatever isneeded to prevent the cow
falling in the ditch at any timein future.
Make changes.
So this is a really importantmetaphor for me.
(58:14):
Okay, when somebody faces mewith something that's gone wrong
and is key to creating aculture of continuous
improvement, okay, don't lookaround for who to blame.
Don't look around, for you knowwho we can shift the
(58:35):
responsibility to.
Okay, just first get intoaction, get the go at it.
Second, what have we got tolearn from this responsibility
to okay, just first get intoaction, get the go at it.
Second, what do we got to learnfrom this?
And then, third, what do weneed to do in future?
And you know, it was a reallypowerful model for me in working
with my leadership team.
Now, when things have gone well, when things have gone
(58:56):
completely differently from howwe we thought they'd be, when
you were being told by centraloffice that something we'd done
was not the right way to do it.
First, fix the problem.
What's the immediate problem?
How do we fix it?
(59:16):
Second, what do we learn fromit?
What's the immediate problem?
How do we fix it?
Second, what do we learn fromit?
Third, what can we do in futureto make sure this isn't a
problem we ever have to dealwith again?
Speaker 1 (59:28):
Such a simple yet powerful image of making sure
you get the cow out of thatditch.
If you break it as simple asdown to that, that is, getting
the cow out of the ditch is thefirst act and then working
through.
I love that.
I really love that framework.
It's a very, very clever butalso practical way of thinking
(59:53):
of how to necessarily workthrough problems.
Speaker 2 (59:59):
Metaphors are easy to remember.
Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
So, in terms of our conclusion, what would
participants expect from theworkshop?
Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Practice interaction with other people.
A bit of theory, a bit ofpsychological insight, people,
you know, a bit of theory, bitof psychological insight, um,
then working out how to to umbecome more confident and
competent.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
It's, it's focused on self, yeah, and it's very, very
experiential.
Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
It's not.
You know, there's no lecturecomponent.
There are demonstrations andyou know I'll demonstrate and
get other people to.
So there are times where we'rewatching somebody else try to do
something, but most of thepractice is in small groups, so
it's not intimidating.
I mean it's all under theumbrella of performance
(01:00:58):
conversation, so it's notintimidating.
I mean it's all under theumbrella of performance
conversation, but they'reeffectively leading difficult
conversations, feedbackconversations or coaching
conversations, whatever.
The outcome will hopefullyalways be that a colleague will
grow and improve as a result andwe'll learn something ourselves
(01:01:18):
every time.
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Fabulous Rob Stones.
Thank you for your time today.
Thank you.
Welcome to Season 3 of Professional Learnings, the
New South Wales PPA EducationalLeadership Podcast.
I'm Drew Janicki, back as yourhost for a brand new season.
It's great for you to be withus as we continue this journey
of learning, leading and drawinginspiration from the incredible
insights of our amazing guests.
(00:26):
Let's dive into our latestepisode.
Today, our guest is Rob Stones,who joins us to discuss his new
professional learning offeringPerformance and Coaching
Conversations.
Rob shares insights onenhancing staff performance
through effective performanceand coaching strategies.
(00:48):
This is a critical area formany school leaders.
But before we dive into theconversation, let's hear first
an extract from Rob to set thecontext for today's podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Hello, I'm Rob Stones .
I'm here to invite you to joinme in a workshop program over
two days called PerformanceConversations.
I'm passionate about peoplehaving really skillful
performance conversations.
In their role as a leader,every conversation you have with
(01:33):
a colleague or teammate is anopportunity for you to enhance
their performance, to encouragethem to work towards your shared
purpose and to confidently takeon these conversations with
every opportunity that arises.
So when I talk aboutperformance conversations, the
(01:53):
one that everybody thinks aboutis the kind of archetypal,
difficult conversation wherethere's an issue with a staff
member and you have to try andresolve that issue.
I call them boundariesconversations often because it's
when people are outside theboundaries of acceptable
practice in your school.
(02:15):
They're only difficult becausewe don't know how to approach
them.
If you approach them the rightway, if you use the skills that
I can teach you in this workshop, then they'll no longer be
difficult, but just routineconversations and the other
kinds of conversations are allrelated.
They're the kinds ofconversations where we want to
give somebody feedback that willenhance their performance and
(02:39):
not just sound like a you'vedone very well conversation.
We want to be able to takeconversations with someone who
knows they need some skillenhancement and use a coaching
conversation in order to keepbuilding their confidence to try
to do better in whateverthey're trying to improve.
(03:01):
And all these conversations, asyou'll learn in this workshop,
are related.
They turn around half a dozenkey skills that you will if you
come to the workshop.
You'll practice, understand howthey work and how they work
together and walk out of thetwo-day workshop feeling
confident that you'll be able tohandle any performance
(03:23):
conversations that you have anopportunity to handle any
performance conversations thatyou have an opportunity to have
with another colleague.
Hope to see you there.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Okay, well, rob Stones, welcome to our podcast
today.
It's fantastic for you to bewith us.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Yeah, I'm really lookingforward to this discussion
around performance conversationsand the work that and what the
messaging is for those listeningin terms of what is a
(04:02):
performance conversation andwhat would the professional
learning look and sound and feellike.
So, looking forward to today'sdiscussion, rob, I will start
with why.
Can we start with the why interms of why do we need
performance conversations?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I guess it comes out of my experience and deeply held
belief that any conversationbetween a school leader and a
staff member is an opportunity,and the opportunity is to
enhance performance.
If we're careless about it,then conversations can have
various outcomes.
A school leader is thinking,every time they have a
(04:45):
conversation with a staff memberor a colleague what are the
ways in which I can make surethat the result of that is
they're more committed, moreengaged, clearer about the work
we're doing together andaltogether more empowered and
(05:07):
enabled in order to do theirwork well?
So if you think about the kindsof performance conversations
cue slide.
So often people think of it asa corrective conversation or
what I call a boundaryconversation.
The leader is concerned aboutsomething that the staff member
(05:36):
colleague is doing or not doing.
Okay, so that's one kind ofperformance conversations.
Another kind is a coaching ormentoring conversation, where
the staff member actually islooking for improvement.
And the third kind really is afeedback conversation, where
you've watched something orheard about something the staff
(05:59):
member has done and you want togive them feedback, but you want
to give them feedback in a waythat will enhance their future
performance as well as let themknow that you approve of this
one.
So all these exchanges have thepotential to be to be growthful
and help staff members focus on, you know, whatever the
(06:22):
direction we're going in and thevalues that we're trying to
pursue, any of those things-yeah, that's a really
interesting in terms of, as aleader, listening and those
listening would have hadcoaching conversations, would
have had mentoring conversationsor would have feedback
(06:46):
conversation.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
What's the key to that differentiation, Rob?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Well, the coaching conversation is essentially the
staff member is engaged withtheir own performance and they
are asking advice or or seekingto pursue some improvement and
you coach them or mentor them,depending.
(07:16):
Coaching is really just helpingthem work out their agenda.
Mentoring will include somesome advice and experience
sharing.
Um the other conversations, youknow the corrective or boundary
conversation.
You're calling for theconversation because you're
concerned about something, butthe trick is to not make that a
(07:41):
top down, one, up on downup,one-down blaming conversation,
but to turn that into just asmuch of an enhancement to
performance.
So in a corrective conversation, what we're doing is we're
trying to take the person'scurrent performance okay, except
(08:03):
that's a given that you knowyou're concerned about it, but
you're looking for anopportunity to make sure that
the future is very different anda feedback conversation very
similar.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
It sounds easy in theory, but what does that look
and sound and feel like inreality?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Well, surprisingly, apart from a few things, the two
conversations don't actuallysound much different, or the
three different conversationsdon't sound much different once
you understand the skillsinvolved, because they need to
(08:55):
be future-focused and they needto be relationship-focused and
they need to be positiveconversations.
So, whatever kind ofconversation it is, you're not
ever holding up a mirror to thepast and going no good or this
is bad or whatever, becausethey're discouraging
(09:17):
conversations.
What you're doing instead is,um, holding up a torch lighting
into the future and going.
Here's what it could be like.
Wherever you are at the moment,wherever you're starting from.
If you're at the moment becauseof something that's happened,
(09:39):
you're starting in a fairly badplace.
That's irrelevant.
That's just about what you didnow or in the past.
What we're concerned with ishow can you learn from that?
How can you take that into afuture improvement?
Speaker 1 (09:57):
So it's a mindset, it's an attitude, yeah very much
so.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, I think so.
It yeah very much so.
Yeah, I think so, and I thinkthat that the way you start
these conversations and yourintention is going to have a
strong influence on the outcome.
If your intention is to tosheet home a shortcoming, make
(10:30):
sure that the other person knowsthat they failed in one of
their key accountabilities,that'll go nowhere.
So, really, the first thing isstep one what do you want from
the conversation?
Do you want that staff memberto be a more useful, a more
enthusiastic, a more engagedperson in the future, or do you
want to spend some timediscouraging them?
(10:53):
Because you can do either.
If your intention is to slapthem down and discourage them,
that'll work.
But it'll work to wreck theirmotivation, to make them feel
bad, and very few people workharder and better if they're
(11:14):
feeling bad about their job.
So, step one what do you want?
If you want to make sure thatwhatever's happened, it's going
to get better in the future,start with that attitude.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, in terms of principals having those thinking
around those performanceconversations.
They might have been thinkingabout that for a while and the
angst in those conversations isall the how they're going to
react to that piece.
But what I've heard is notcoming into that conversation of
(11:53):
how they would react.
It's coming into theconversation of what you would
like yourself as a leader fromthat conversation.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yep, that's pretty much it Thinking about it.
We've all had both kinds ofconversations.
Well, most of us some of us areunfortunate They've only had
the blaming conversations fromtheir own leaders in the past,
but most of us have also hadleadership experience where
those people that they saw asvery important to their careers
(12:27):
their leaders instead ofspending any time talking about
what they'd done wrong, ask themabout what their own
self-evaluation was of whathappened and then turn that into
almost like a coachingconversation for how to improve
it in the future.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah, so, Rob, can you tell us further about these
conversation pieces so we canbreak them down further?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Well, I mean, I think I'll just focus on the one that
most people find most difficultis the difficult conversation,
because something has happenedand you have to address that in
some way, so you can't ignore it.
You have to think about how doyou want the person to feel as
(13:17):
they leave the conversation.
Do you want them to feel thatthey can work on their
improvement, that they can bemore effective in future, they
can be energized because of thatpossibility?
Or do you want them to be sadand feel reprimanded and all of
(13:43):
the things, all the emotionalside effects that being put down
or reprimanded brings with it?
So what we want from theseconversations is a person
finishing the conversation withus, leaving it smiling, knowing
(14:04):
we've got their back, knowingthat they're focused on a more
positive future.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I'm not saying that's easy, no, no, I'm hearing the
cynics in the listeners who saythis great sounds, fantastic,
rob.
All in theory.
However, in reality, I've had aconversation like this before
and we're back to feels likewe're back to square one with to
(14:33):
addressing similar behavior.
What advice do you have there?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I think that cynicism kind of undoes the whole
conversation, because you startfeeling that it will be
valueless and that all you cando is make sure the person knows
they've done something wrong.
But I think the important wayto think about it is that very
(15:04):
few people want to do badly.
Very few people enjoy theexchange of acrimony and feeling
that, right or wrong, theirboss feels they have done badly.
And if they do feel theconversation goes like that
(15:25):
they're going to really bedefensive, feel the conversation
goes like that they're gonnareally be defensive throughout
the conversation.
They're looking out for thefact that you're gonna threaten
to hurt them or that theiropinion of you is diminished and
that things are gonna go badlyin future.
So if you start theconversation with any hint of
(15:46):
that, okay, whether it's whetheryou're right that they've done
something really bad or you'rewrong, there is.
It's the future that matters,because unless you've got the
inclination and the power tosack them immediately, right,
this is a person you have towork with in the future.
Um, whether we're cynical aboutthat possibility or optimistic
(16:11):
makes a certain amount ofdifference, because you'll
communicate that.
If you can start out, let meknow.
Perhaps I can just give you anillustration.
Uh, one of my um of mycolleagues came to me.
He just had a terrible incidentwith a class where he ended up
(16:33):
screaming, basically at theclass and he used some words he
shouldn't have used and he wasright outside the boundaries,
you know, the shouting wasoutside the boundaries for me,
using bad language and so on.
So I just started by saying howwould you describe what
(16:56):
happened?
And he said oh well, you know,I shouted at him, you know, said
some things I regret now and soon and so forth.
Okay, okay, so if you could goback and redesign that moment
and think about what, if youwere living up to being the best
teacher, you could be in thatsame situation again.
(17:20):
Is there any way you couldchange that scenario?
And he said yes, of course Icould have done this and this
and this.
Okay.
So I said you know, I thinkthat our job.
Then, as we talk about this,you know, and as we acknowledge
that it wasn't reallyappropriate or so on, and that
(17:44):
there's lots of things that wecould be doing or saying that
would make it even worse, let'sjust focus on that I know I
could have done better bit andsee if we can figure out exactly
what you can do next timeyou're stressed by the either
(18:10):
classes apparent intransigenceand you're feeling emotionally
overwrought, turn on instead.
That'll create a better outcome.
So you may notice that I'mdoing exactly the same, putting
(18:33):
the same scenario to the teacheras I'm trying to put to us as
leaders.
Yes, we can awful eyes it aslong as we like, but the only
thing that matters is if you'rethere again, can we change
things?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah, and in terms of the professional learning in
that space, is that whatparticipants would experience
that time to be able to practicethe performance conversations?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
The workshop itself.
It will be largely aroundpeople experimenting with the
kind of language, the kind ofapproach that we want them to
use and that they can use in thefuture to make those
(19:30):
conversations really positive.
So all useful conversationshave these two elements they're
solution focused, they're futurefocused, they're opportunities
to start again.
Okay, and this is not a blackmark on the person's record.
(19:54):
Okay, this is a point wherethere's a choice to be made.
We can, I can, as a leader, canmake it a time for generating
more positive interactions withthis person in future, and the
teacher can use it as anopportunity to be more
(20:15):
productive and better capable ofdealing with the stresses of
their job.
And that's the fork in the road.
If we go one way, we can buildour communication with the
(20:36):
teacher, we can build ourrelationship with the teacher,
and if we go the other way, oneor both of us leaves the room
feeling resentful anddiscouraged.
Because here's the crucial thingthe alternative is not to have
a productive conversation.
The alternative is to have aconversation which is very much
(20:56):
one up, one down.
Okay, I'm telling you offbecause I'm in the role to tell
you off and you've done, donewrong and I'm going to make sure
you know that and does thatmake you, as a leader, feel good
?
My experience as a teacher isit never does, because you know
that, much as you can rant andrave in the moment, in the
(21:20):
future there's more difficultywith that person and with that
relationship.
We're not headed towards a goodsolution, we're headed towards
just the possibility of a repeatperformance, because we set it
up like that yeah, it's makingI'm hearing a really conscious
(21:42):
choice of that attitude, rob.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
When, when you are that fork in the road in terms
of how you do do respond, andthe and the default can be that
power over as what I heard is ais a choice that, as a leader,
and whether that's a behaviorthat has been learned or that's
something that, in terms of theprofessional learning that you
(22:05):
can teach, there is analternative, because some people
may think there is noalternative to that fork in the
road.
And what if something I guesshypothetically, what if
something has really gone badlywrong?
In terms of that space, what'syour?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
thinking there.
Look what people will leave.
This performance conversationsworkshop is not a magic wand.
Okay, I hope they'll leave witha clear understanding that
blame leads to defensiveness andavoidance of responsibility by
(22:43):
the teacher.
People rarely feel moreresponsible after they've been
chastised.
Okay, and whatever yourintention, it can end up like
that.
Someone who's not prepared totake any responsibility for
their behavior won't acknowledgethat they did the wrong thing,
(23:06):
however gently you put it tothem.
Doesn't think they need toimprove?
There's no way that there's amagic wand for that and there
are deep mental procedures forthat sort of stuff.
But that's not the place we'restarting from.
We're starting from okay, amistake has been made,
(23:36):
unfortunate and inappropriatebehavior has happened.
Okay, now do we pick the personup and point them to the right
direction and push them out intothe future?
Okay, or do we slap them aroundthe face metaphorically and
make sure they understand what abad person they've been?
And the other person has achoice of this.
(23:59):
They can choose to work with uswhen we extend that
conversation, and my experienceis that almost everybody will.
Okay, if you're dealing with atrue sociopath, they won't know
they've done anything wrong, sothere's no way we can make much
(24:21):
progress there.
But most teachers are notsociopaths.
They're people who have.
They're people who have areally good intention, but they
are in a stressful job wherefrustration is occasionally
leads to some inappropriatebehavior, and I think that and I
(24:43):
think that's how we picture itthis is a person who fell away
from their usual predispositionto do the best they can and the
circumstances got the better ofthem.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, I like what I'm seeing on the screen here is
it's either a lose-losesituation, a win-loss situation,
a lose-win or a win-win.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, and you know I suppose we're both.
You know everybody thinkswin-win is pretty much a fantasy
, but in these situations it'sreally.
If we can feel that either Isuppose we both.
You know everybody thinkswin-win is pretty much a fantasy
, but in these situations it'sreally.
If we can leave theconversation feeling the person
knows what to do in the future,that's a win for us, it's a win
for them because they know whatto do in the future.
Okay, power over conversationlooks like a win for us and lose
(25:40):
for the other.
But it actually always turnsinto a lose-lose because it
doesn't take away all of theproblems that will occur with
that staff member in the future.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Let's continue on.
We've got the key to difficultkinds of performance
conversations the key todifficult kinds of performance
conversations.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
So I guess what I'm saying is you treat them very
like coaching conversationsbecause hopefully, if you can
make that switch to focusing onwhat to do instead, then they
end up enhancing performance.
To do instead, then they end upenhancing performance.
Bring the staff back into theshared purpose of the whole
thing.
It'll build great enthusiasm.
(26:30):
It can be surprisinglyinspiring for a teacher or
assistant principal, deputyprincipal, to have the
conversation with the boss aboutsomething they didn't do okay,
and yet they leave theconversation with this real
sense of okay.
(26:52):
I've got the capability to domuch better next time and next
time I came in that situation Ifeel I can handle it now because
I know what to do.
So so I kind of look back on myown experience.
I was a young phys ed teacherworking as the only phys ed
(27:19):
teacher at that time in the inthe lower school.
Um, you know big Londoncomprehensive and there were
lots of of issues.
Um, I um did something prettystupid when one of the couple of
the kids did something wrongand I made all the the children
(27:43):
run until they were exhaustedand kept shouting at them and
you know doing that old SergeantMajor routine.
Okay, and my deputy principal,who was a great guy, a
malefiction, and he took measide and he said how do you
(28:05):
want those kids to remember you?
I was the question he asked me.
I said, well, well, because agood teacher, I suppose.
So he said, if you had to runthat scenario again, got in that
situation again and the mainthing that you wanted from it is
(28:25):
for those kids to see you as agood teacher.
Would you have done somethingdifferent?
Oh, I was convicted straightaway.
I was, of course I would.
Okay, he said well, what wouldyou have done?
I can't remember what Ianswered, but I know that
whenever I answered, it meantthat every time I was getting
(28:47):
frustrated by the behavior ofthe class, I thought about that
in the future and I didsomething completely different.
He had an inspirationalinfluence on my life and my
teaching performance because theway he conducted that one
conversation.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah, and it stuck with you ever since, hasn't it?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Absolutely yeah, so hopefully that became part of
how I tried to do things.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Because of the way it made you feel.
What I heard is the way inwhich he approached you.
He, in the position, could havecome to you completely as a
power over in terms of how thatwould be approached, but he came
to you in a way that yeah, howdid that feel?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah good, and also the fact that I know that some
of the student's parentscomplained to him and I never
got any backlash from that, andespecially because I then worked
hard to change my relationshipwith that class.
Whereas it could have been theother thing he could have thrown
(29:57):
me under the bus, he could havebrought in parents to tell me
how bad they felt he could havetaken some kind of discipline.
The negative the thing is wecould all think of a scat of
negative things to kind of do topeople.
But I think what we have toremind ourselves, and remind
(30:18):
ourselves every time somethinglike this comes up, is the only
person who can change thebehavior is the person
themselves.
Um, we can't change thebehavior.
So if we want them to choose abetter behavior next time, want
them to choose to be the bestthey can be next time, we have
(30:39):
to have to try and persuade themto look at it in a different
way and make that decision forthemselves.
A lot of the difficulty thatprinciples deal with is the
(31:00):
cultural belief that people canbe made to do as they're told by
fear and threats.
But a very wise man, peterDrucker, said many years ago if
we want our staff to do reallywell and to give their very best
(31:26):
.
We have to treat them as ifthey're volunteers, right?
Not people we had power over,but people who were just
extending their service.
Really wise words, becausethat's actually how it is.
You know, we look around at thestaff members who are
performing in exceptional way inour, in our school.
(31:49):
They're volunteering to do that.
There's nothing in the rulesthat says that you have to do
that.
They all go above and beyond.
So it's that kind of mindsetwe're trying to seed in a person
that we're talking to everytime we talk to them.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Yeah, absolutely, rob , and let's continue with what
is the key to all performanceconversations.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Well, just, you will have heard me talk in values,
heavy language all the time.
Focus on the positive intentand the staff members picture of
themselves as a good person.
We, none of us, want to thinkof ourselves as a bad person,
and it's the positive valuesthat we need to talk about.
(32:44):
So you know the staff memberwho you know.
Simple example of a staffmember who's habitually late,
and we can bang on about themhabitually late, and we can.
You know they'll blame theirenvironment, they'll blame their
environment, they'll blame thecircumstances for their
(33:09):
behaviour, and so on and soforth.
So that's the bottom of thatpyramid of influence.
But if we want them to make achange, if we want them to focus
on the important things, Idon't talk to them about being
how many times they've been lateon.
(33:29):
I'm talking to them about like,what is the?
What do you believe about thevalue of punctuality and, um,
certainty for the students andyour colleagues?
And we have a completelydifferent conversation.
Then, right, honestly, theyjust flips it completely so that
(33:52):
them being defensive abouttheir behaviors they talk about
well, you know.
So I most will say I do knowthat it's I shouldn't be trying
to be more punctual, but I getoverwhelmed by the circumstances
of my life or something likethat, and then we talk about we
have a coaching conversation oreven a mentoring conversation
(34:13):
that will help them to deal withthat.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
It's completely flipping, isn't it, with those
beliefs?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yep, and the thing about values and beliefs is they
influence our capabilities, ourbehaviors and how we manage the
environment on the person, sothat if we want this person to
leave our conversation going, Iam capable of doing better.
(34:49):
Then we have to work at thatlevel, not the level at which
they can come up with excuses.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
So it's really what I've heard is it's from the
leader's perspective to come inwith those values and belief and
before that, the vision, theiridentity, and then the values
and belief.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, so I mean the school's vision and the school's
sense of shared purpose arevery much part of the
conversation, rather than youforgot to do something.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
And then do we work through in the course.
Is there further frameworks tobeyond beliefs or beyond values
and beliefs?
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Very, very clear framework.
So you know it would be boringto put it here, but we step
people through a process, okay,so that you know you need a
process, you need to go.
Okay.
I start here.
In this conversation I askthese kind of questions.
I respond in this way if theother person becomes negative.
(36:01):
And so that structure, thoseframeworks, help you to practice
, because this is all yourworthwhile courses are about
practice.
In this course there's lots ofpractice in the course course
(36:23):
now.
That's why it extends over twodays and why we've got an
opportunity for practice over awhole range of scenarios.
People will be invited to bringtheir own scenarios to it.
People bring the conversationsthat they're dreading having or
know they did badly at, and wecan work through those and
(36:47):
rehearse them.
And then they leave with astructure so that they can
rehearse them back in theirworkplace.
And you know, rehearsal isreally important.
Whenever I had to have a reallychallenging conversation with
anybody, I would practice itwith another person first, often
(37:12):
one of my deputies or perhaps aperson's head of department or
his AP, so that we could justyou know, so I could hear what
it sounded like and we couldfine-tune it.
And in that situation it's easyto keep the structure because
you know you're practicing.
But then, once you run thestructure, once it's easy to do
(37:33):
it again.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And you're coming into the course, potentially
with people or people you don'tknow, but people at a similar
level, whether in an executivelevel or a principal level, who
have an unconscious bias towardsyour current situation that
you're working through and rob.
(37:57):
Where where does this piece fitin in terms of?
We have our as you are afacilitator for our art of
leadership master class and, ofcourse, we have the art of
leadership.
Where do you see this piecefitting in that, in that pl
framework?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I think it complements it.
We tried to embed the art ofleadership when we wrote it,
some time looking at andpracticing performance
conversations of all those threetypes, and in the masterclass
(38:35):
we do focus on those again, butin the context of, in both cases
, a very big program that coverslots of strategic and cultural
and so on differences.
It's hard to spend the time onit In this course.
It's two days solidly focusingon performance conversations.
(38:58):
We don't have to go to theother places.
I mean inevitably, peoplewho've been to the Art of
Leadership and done this courseask me some questions about how
it relates to other things andI'm happy to answer that
question, but I really try hardto focus on.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
this is a practice opportunity for you to leave
here with enhanced skills yeah,yeah, absolutely, and and that
time to be able to do that withpractice, so you can improve
those skills.
It's not something I thinkthat's not necessarily practice
(39:37):
as well or as much as we wouldlike until that feeling,
overwhelming feeling, comesthrough and we go.
I wish I had time to practicethis conversation because now I
need to dig myself out throughwhatever situation the person
may be in.
And, in terms of going back towhere it does fit in, I heard
(39:58):
you could come in withoutout-of-leadership course
experience or you could actuallyhave out-of-leadership
experience and come into this.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, it doesn't make any difference.
I mean, the course is focusedon all entry levels.
You know whether you're aconfident um a person who's
confident because they thinkthey've got pretty good um
communication and conversationskills anyway and you've learned
(40:32):
a lot through some course, likethe art of leadership you've
done, or whether you're you'reidentifying, as this is
something I really need to learn.
I don't know much about it.
Um, the course is invitationalenough um, so you can come in at
any level, so it's a reallysafe environment.
Um, you know the present.
(40:53):
Some present there'll be.
There will be somepresentations in the large group
, but lots of activity in smallsupportive groups who get to
know each other really wellduring the course of the two
days.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, through your courses I see so many
connections, not just during thecourse but beyond, which is the
power of that connection piecethat brings people together.
So if we go and focus on ourvalues piece, a few people spend
if you can continue on wherethat values piece fits in
(41:35):
performance.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Well, whatever type of conversation you're having
with someone, if the intentionof the conversation is to
improve their performance okay,then it has to focus on
something they value doing.
Okay, because what we do is, ifwe see value in doing something
, we will develop thecapabilities for it and learn
the behaviors.
It doesn't matter whether it'sa skill or capability that's
(42:02):
professional or one that's in anactivity or a hobby outside the
school.
If you're going to spend anytime on something, it'll only be
because you value doing things,because people don't spend the
time and energy cultivating abehavior or an interest they
don't value.
So we really do, yeah,absolutely.
(42:28):
So this kind of complements ourwhole approach.
We focus on the value andpeople respond to the value not
necessarily to us, but go, yeah,I really do think that's
important, or I really do wantto be seen as that person.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Okay, let's move forward, Rob, in terms of what's
some other key messages forpeople listening in curious
about?
Tell me more, Rob, aboutperformance conversations and
coaching conversations.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
I think one of the things that I notice is that a
lot of people treat feedbackconversations as kind of you've
all done very well conversationsand don't think about how
critical the staff member orcolleagues own self-evaluation
(43:28):
is.
So if I, if I'm, if I'm havingto walk past a classroom and
stop for a moment, I'm reallyimpressed by what the teacher is
doing.
I can tell the teacher howimpressed I was and that's a pat
(43:49):
on the head, but I can start aconversation instead going.
Okay, I was really impressedabout the way in which you held
all of the kids' attention andgot them absolutely focused on
the key concept there, about theway in which you held all of
the kids' attention and got themabsolutely focused on the key
concept there.
Tell me a little bit more aboutwhat you were doing and how you
(44:11):
were thinking about it.
Okay, so I'm asking every timethere's an external piece of
praise or feedback from me, it'san opportunity to say well,
what did you think?
And I suppose I learned thatvery early on, because I was a
(44:38):
deputy principal at one stage inmy career and my principal kept
telling me what a great job Iwas doing I didn't think I was
doing a great job at all.
I would have really liked tohave an honest conversation
about the things that I wasstruggling with, but a pat on
the head doesn't give you anyopportunity that all you can do
is go thanks, boss, um, and moveaway from it.
(45:00):
I would have liked him to sayum, you know that, for example,
about a way I took um a schoolassembly.
School assemblies were verydifficult to bun down me.
You were kind of in a room,kind of people who are older
would remember.
You stood on the top verandaand talked to the people in the
playground below you andcommunication was difficult.
(45:27):
So I did.
I was pretty good at gettingpeople to be quiet listening to
me, but I wasn't very good atengaging them in the things I
was saying, because the feedbackI got afterwards is, you know,
like Rob's delivered anothersermon, which is the feedback
from kids and my colleagues.
When I actually asked for it, um, now, from, uh, from my boss, I
(45:50):
would have liked a bit of howdo I do it differently?
Um, and if he'd asked me toself evaluate, I would have said
look, I've got, I've got, I'vegot them under control.
I don't think I'm communicatingwith them and lots of people
that I've given self-evaluationto, given given feedback to over
the years.
(46:10):
When I've invited them toself-evaluate, they really say
surprising things and thesurprising things really are
productive in the fact that itgenerates the conversation,
generates some thoughtfulconsideration of their
professionalism and skill andthe edges of their learning that
(46:36):
are so much more significantthan just patting everybody on
the head that are so much moresignificant than just patting
everybody on the head.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Yeah, I mean this could go in various forms.
That whole self-evaluationpiece is and you go back to that
classroom example and I hear asaying where don't step past the
standard that you would notaccept, and I'm sure you've
heard of that statement before,but it's not coming in at a
(47:08):
power over.
There's a difference in termsof how that approach could occur
, and that is through aself-evaluation process.
But you really, as a leader,you could set that climate
through this professionallearning opportunity to be able
to really see how you can get tothat self-evaluation point.
(47:29):
And what I heard is you werecraving that from your
perspective.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yep, you know.
People often point to theresearch which shows that most
teachers feel they don't getenough feedback on their
performance, and people oftentake that to mean they don't get
told enough about what's wrongor what could be improved about
(47:57):
their performance.
They're not looking for that.
Teachers are generallycognitively engaged in the work
they do, so when they say theywant feedback, they want
thoughtful feedback.
They want, if you like,critical feedback when they feel
(48:23):
they haven't done very well,accompanied by some coaching
feedback.
They want often straightcoaching feedback that gets an
opportunity.
How would you do it?
So?
That's when these thesebasically three layers of
conversation the criticalboundaries conversation, the
(48:44):
feedback conversation, thecoaching conversation all come
together and merge.
We as leaders often have to beclear about which conversation
we're involved in, but theteacher will learn from it
anyway If we do it well.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Yeah, and that's part of the practice, isn't it?
For seeing where you are at andbeing consciously, I should say
, aware of where that's sitting,in terms of what type of
conversation am I going into andwhat is the outcome that I
would like from thatconversation?
So, really, takeaways are beingreally present for when people
(49:28):
which is a skill set in itselfas well, if we move into now the
opportunities for performanceconversations, rob, can you tell
us further about?
Speaker 2 (49:40):
that when we have a performance conversation to give
our colleague positive feedback, if we take that extra step to
get them to self-evaluate, thewhole thing goes to a different
level.
So we're using our skills toencourage a colleague to
(50:02):
evaluate themselves and thestandard is their present best
okay, and what we're alwayswanting to encourage them is to
keep improving, keep growing,because I think that that's a
key task for the leader.
(50:23):
If I can look at my staff everyyear and think that for all of
my staff, I can't say I everremember a time when I could say
that, but that's theaspirational goal.
I can't say I ever remember atime when I could say that, but
that's the aspirational goal.
All of my staff, through thethings that I encourage them
(50:46):
with or the feedback I gave them, or the opportunity I gave them
to look at themselves in themirror, will learn something
that makes them a better teacherfor next year than they were
this year.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
I think that's what everyone would hopefully be in
the profession for trying tocontinue to improve their
performance, yep, but not at alevel of being berated or being
put down or having negativeself-thoughts about their
performance.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
No, I mean.
Eddie Shine used to say somereally interesting things about
learning and growing.
He says if you're learning tocatch up, it always feels
stressful.
Someone gives you theimpression you're behind, you
know you have things that youhave to learn in order just to
(51:39):
keep up with everybody.
That's not a growthfulexperience.
But if you're growing in orderto improve, to feel that your
own skills free from comparisonwith anybody else, your own
skills are being enhanced andgetting better, then you put
(52:01):
energy into it.
So that's, if you like, thepiece that some of our masters
sometimes forget.
Learning to catch up isn't good, and one of the things we
talked about frameworks, but oneof the things we you know I
(52:22):
talked about frameworks, but oneof the things that's included
here is the GLASA framework forperformance conversation.
As you know, I'm a choicetheory practitioner, teacher,
(52:45):
teacher, so I believe that thishas a has a great capacity to
give us the flexibility, once weunderstand the framework, to
tweak each performanceconversation depending on the
feedback you're getting from theperson, so that we're always
pointing towards enhancedperformance as the outcome.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Yeah, and it says here that powerful coaching
conversations are based onWilliam Glasser's reality
therapy.
For those unaware what isreality therapy by William
Glasser?
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Reality.
Therapy is a way of talking topeople so they take
responsibility for their ownbehavior and the quality of
their own behavior in the future, you know so it's a therapeutic
model when you're a counselorbut we're not counselors.
It's a marvelous, inspirationaland aspirational model for
(53:39):
helping people to, in everyconversation, elicit from the
other person what their idealwant, is what it is that they
would be if they were performingat the best they could be, and
(54:00):
help them to work towards that.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
Yeah, the choice theory, concept and reality
therapy is.
Is there a timeframe, rob, forthat to be mastered, or is that
based on one's own experience?
Speaker 2 (54:19):
No, well, in this course, all we can do is teach
the framework for realitytherapy, to give people a
framework to work from,mastering the psychology of
internal control, choice theory,all the skills that are based
(54:41):
on classes.
Work is something I'm stillworking on over 30 years, but
but I mean every.
Any opportunity just takes youfurther, okay, I mean we we most
of us want to do keep doingbetter at getting the things
(55:03):
that we want and need in anethical way to enhance our own
lives.
So that's a set of tools.
So there'll be some peoplewho've done some of Glasser's
work come to this and again,it's just an opportunity to take
(55:24):
it to a different level.
People who haven't come acrossGlasser's work will still get
plenty from the framework andmay be inspired to go and learn
some more.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
The work of William Glasser is truly remarkable for
those listening and for thosewho are aware of it.
Would agree let's continue withfinishing our conversation.
Further opportunities here thatyou can elaborate on with
Performance ConversationWorkshop.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
No, just really.
I think that it's aprofessional opportunity.
We're not sitting in front ofan expert reading slides In the
course.
It'll be an opportunity tobuild your personal skills.
(56:17):
It'll be an opportunity tobuild your personal skills, your
relaxed and collegialatmosphere, and to just to focus
on how do I get this kind ofmindset that enables me to
approach these conversations,how can I practice with people
who are supporting me and howcan I use it to create the
(56:44):
culture that I think we all want, which is that mistakes are
part of learning and we embracethem.
We don't get blamed for them,we just go on to improve.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
So if a mistake is made, what's the framework?
Speaker 2 (56:59):
So fix the immediate problem it's created, learn from
mistakes and then build bettersystems or new behaviours.
And I guess the most powerfulstatement I have ever heard of
that is the cow in the ditchmetaphor.
It helps me to really rememberthat there's a little story that
(57:23):
goes with it.
So Anne Mulcahy was a formerCEO of Xerox and she was at a
business meeting talking abouthow to deal with difficulties in
the business and an old farmerabout how to deal with
difficulties in the business,and an old farmer approached her
(57:48):
and he said look, when the cowfalls in the ditch, remember
three things First, get the cowout of the ditch, take action.
Second, work out how the cowgot into the ditch, learn from
it.
And third, do whatever isneeded to prevent the cow
falling in the ditch at any timein future.
Make changes.
So this is a really importantmetaphor for me.
(58:14):
Okay, when somebody faces mewith something that's gone wrong
and is key to creating aculture of continuous
improvement, okay, don't lookaround for who to blame.
Don't look around, for you knowwho we can shift the
(58:35):
responsibility to.
Okay, just first get intoaction, get the go at it.
Second, what have we got tolearn from this responsibility
to okay, just first get intoaction, get the go at it.
Second, what do we got to learnfrom this?
And then, third, what do weneed to do in future?
And you know, it was a reallypowerful model for me in working
with my leadership team.
Now, when things have gone well, when things have gone
(58:56):
completely differently from howwe we thought they'd be, when
you were being told by centraloffice that something we'd done
was not the right way to do it.
First, fix the problem.
What's the immediate problem?
How do we fix it?
(59:16):
Second, what do we learn fromit?
What's the immediate problem?
How do we fix it?
Second, what do we learn fromit?
Third, what can we do in futureto make sure this isn't a
problem we ever have to dealwith again?
Speaker 1 (59:28):
Such a simple yet powerful image of making sure
you get the cow out of thatditch.
If you break it as simple asdown to that, that is, getting
the cow out of the ditch is thefirst act and then working
through.
I love that.
I really love that framework.
It's a very, very clever butalso practical way of thinking
(59:53):
of how to necessarily workthrough problems.
Speaker 2 (59:59):
Metaphors are easy to remember.
Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
So, in terms of our conclusion, what would
participants expect from theworkshop?
Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Practice interaction with other people.
A bit of theory, a bit ofpsychological insight, people,
you know, a bit of theory, bitof psychological insight, um,
then working out how to to umbecome more confident and
competent.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
It's, it's focused on self, yeah, and it's very, very
experiential.
Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
It's not.
You know, there's no lecturecomponent.
There are demonstrations andyou know I'll demonstrate and
get other people to.
So there are times where we'rewatching somebody else try to do
something, but most of thepractice is in small groups, so
it's not intimidating.
I mean it's all under theumbrella of performance
(01:00:58):
conversation, so it's notintimidating.
I mean it's all under theumbrella of performance
conversation, but they'reeffectively leading difficult
conversations, feedbackconversations or coaching
conversations, whatever.
The outcome will hopefullyalways be that a colleague will
grow and improve as a result andwe'll learn something ourselves
(01:01:18):
every time.
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Fabulous Rob Stones.
Thank you for your time today.
Thank you.
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