Unlock the secrets of multiplier leadership in education with Liz Wiseman, whose groundbreaking work is now a core part of the New South Wales Primary Principals Association Professional Learning Suite. Liz joins us to discuss her journey, including pivotal moments with influential figures like Kerry Patterson, and how embracing the multiplier approach can transform schools into high-performing, exhilarating environments. You'll learn how leaders can harness the full potential of their teams, leading to triple the productivity and creating a lasting, positive impact on both educators and students.
Reflect on the profound impact of a play-based childhood and pressure-free education systems as we share personal anecdotes about the creativity and self-directed learning fostered by permissive educators and non-elite school settings. Hear touching stories of how educators' seemingly playful comments can shape student self-perception and the significant "multiplier moments" that steer children's educational journeys. This episode delves into the emotional aspects of parenting and education, highlighting how nurturing individual strengths can lead to remarkable personal growth and confidence.
Get inspired by real-world success stories, from medical schools producing multiplier physician leaders to Amy Ruzicka's transformative work as superintendent of Bayless School District. Discover the critical role of coaching in sustaining multiplier leadership and how it can drive systemic change in educational settings. Liz Wiseman's insights emphasize that true leadership not only tackles complex challenges but also fosters an invigorating work environment. If you’re ready to explore these powerful concepts further, don’t miss out on the Multiplier course available on the New South Wales PPA website.
Links and References:
To view our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning
To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Drew (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Season 2 of the Principal
Learnings Podcast.
If you're a principal oreducational leader looking to
enhance your skills, this is theplace for you, so let's get
into it, let's embark on thislearning journey together.
Liz (00:18):
I think there are two reasons to be a multiplier
leader, and both kind of can getyou there, but in one way to
look at it is you want to leadthis way because you get more
from people.
And I think that was what wasso shocking to me in the
research is how diminishingleaders were getting less than
(00:39):
half of people's availableintelligence, whereas
multipliers were gettingvirtually all of it available
intelligence, whereasmultipliers we're getting
virtually all of it.
It's a 2x effect broadly, butwhen we go into our school
districts it starts to look morelike a 3x difference.
And there is a compellingreason to lead this way, which
is, you know, my shortunderstanding, or my summary of
(01:02):
my understanding of thechallenges in education is like
education has all the challengesin education is like education
has all the challenges thatbusinesses and for-profit having
.
They just have them, I think,in in like sharper ways.
In sharper ways, I think theproblems are a little bit more
acute and harder.
So, like educational leadersneed to be able to do more by
(01:22):
getting more from people.
That's one reason.
But I'm always reminded and whenI think of myself as a leader
and like why I want to lead thisway, some of it comes to gee, I
want to get the most frompeople because we got hard
problems to solve and I needthis, but I remind myself that
(01:42):
the real reason to lead this wayis about legacy, and not just
how much you get from people,but what kind of work experience
do you offer and what's theimpact on the people you lead?
And how do you really want tobe remembered as a leader?
And when I boil it down to youknow what I've learned from 35
(02:04):
years of leading, and my ownresearch is you know, I want to
be remembered as a leader.
People grow around and maybethat's it, and it's about
getting more, but it's alsoabout giving to people an
experience that feels lessexhausting and more exhilarating
(02:24):
.
Feels less exhausting and moreexhilarating.
Drew (02:28):
Today's episode is dedicated to unpacking the work
of Liz Wiseman with a focus onMultipliers, which is a new
addition to the New South WalesPrimary Principals Association
Professional Learning Suite thathas been gaining a lot of
popularity with schools,executives and principal
networks across New South Wales.
I'm really looking forward tosharing this discussion that we
(02:49):
have with Liz, as well as theimpact and relevance of
multipliers in the educationalleadership landscape.
Liz, Wiseman, to our podcast.
It's great to have you with usand I'm looking forward to our
discussion today.
Liz (03:05):
Well, it's absolutely a pleasure to be with you, and I
look forward to thisconversation.
Drew (03:11):
Yeah, so am I.
I'm really looking forward towhere we're really going to look
at from your work in theeducational leadership space.
We're going to start withleadership development, though,
is your work is about shapingeffective leaders.
What was a particular moment orinfluence in your career that
(03:33):
sparked your passion, Liz, inthis field?
Liz (03:37):
I feel like my career was very much shaped by educators
and educational leaders and Ithink you know probably the
sharpest moments where I wasshaped by that was one being a
student in uni in CarriePatterson's OB 321 class, that's
(04:00):
Organizational Behavior 321.
I'm an undergraduate, it's acourse you know, and my
undergraduate degree was infinance and I took this
organizational behavior classfrom the great and now
unfortunately late CarriePatterson, who had written a
number of best-selling booksPeople might know them from
(04:21):
Crucial Conversations andCrucial Confrontations and Inf
confrontations and influence herand change anything.
I imagine some of yourlisteners have read these books.
And he was my professor and Ithink I fell in love with the
subject matter of interpersonalcommunications and leadership
(04:43):
and I kind of fell in love withthe idea of doing the kind of
work Kerry was doing and he verymuch inspired me and I ended up
going to work for him and itwas the only job that I ever
desperately wanted, where, likewhen I'm interviewing, I'm like,
oh, don't screw this up, liz,I'm trying to use Jedi mind
(05:06):
tricks to hire me for the job.
And I went to work for him andhe was this incredible
multiplier to me and someone whobelieved in me, gave me hard
things to do but also didn'ttolerate me doing anything less
than great work.
And I remember vividly turningin sloppy work to him and having
(05:31):
him kind of respond with no,not okay.
And you know there's this onemoment where you know he was a
great thinker and a great authorand so so brilliant.
I'm editing some of his writingand you know I'm fixing up a
bunch of stuff and I get to thisone part that was really
(05:52):
convoluted and sort of a tangleof words and I'm like, oh, that
needs to be fixed.
And I remember writing AWK inthe margin you know standard
editorial term for awkward andI'm like, kerry, he's so smart,
(06:14):
you know he was my professor,you know he'll know how to fix
this.
I just need to like point outwhat's not working and he'll fix
it with that great big brain ofhis.
And you know I did all my editsand took my the document over,
left it on his desk while he wasat lunch and I could tell he
had come back from lunch and Icould tell he was coming to see
me because I could hear him likemarching down the hallway like
(06:35):
aggressively toward my office.
And you know he pops in and hedoesn't say hello, he doesn't
say anything, he just looks atme like eye contact, and he said
don't you ever give me an AWKwithout an FIX?
Like don't point out what'swrong, like, fix it.
(06:58):
I hired you because I thinkyou're smart and capable,
whatever.
And I remember him walking overand he did it, of course, with
this twinkle in his eye, like agreat educator would, and just
dropped that document on my deskwith this thud, with no other
explanation than don't you evergive me an AWK without an FIX.
(07:18):
And I was like, okay, I thinkI've just been schooled a little
bit and let me think a littleharder, let me fix this problem.
And then I kind of sheepishlytook it back and, you know,
returned it to him.
But he was this, I think,person that made me fall in love
with the idea of the power ofleaders and the ability to like
(07:45):
direct and shape and influenceand make an impact in the world,
but also this ability toengender people's best thinking
and best work.
And so carrie was someone whowas an educator, he was a leader
, he was, you know, my boss.
I did this internship for himwho kind of set me down this
path.
Drew (08:06):
Yeah, that was your multiplier moment.
Liz (08:09):
Yeah, and you know it was also like and I think the way he
works like reminded me thatbeing a multiplier leader is not
about being kind, supportive,nice, trusting, empowering.
It's also coupled with beingdemanding.
Drew (08:31):
Yeah.
Liz (08:32):
You know, I remember, you know fast forward.
Oh goodness, this is probablytwo, almost three decades later
where I've done the researchbehind multipliers and I've
written, I'm writing this book.
And I reach out to him.
I'm like Kiri, they want me towrite a book proposal.
I have no idea how to do that.
(08:52):
And he's like I tell him theidea and he said well, this is
such a good idea that I'm justmad I didn't think of it.
And then he said to me don'twrite a warm-up book.
He said this is an importantidea.
You go and write a big book.
(09:13):
He said you write a New YorkTimes bestselling book, because
that's what this idea needs.
And it really raised my sightson this.
And he said and I'd be happy togive you feedback.
And oh my gosh, karius is likebrilliant writer, brilliant
thinker.
I'm like I'll take that offer.
And you know, I send him acouple chapters and writes back
(09:40):
like 45 minutes after I hadmailed them to him.
You know, emailed them.
He writes me back and he's likegirl, have you done your
homework?
You know?
And girl, can you write?
And I'm just like swelling withconfidence and pride and I'm
just so delighted that he'spleased.
And then he said you know whydon't you come to my office and
(10:02):
make an appointment, like let'sget two hours and I'll go
through and give you somedetailed feedback, and I'm like
great.
Drew (10:09):
Yeah.
Liz (10:10):
So I fly two states away.
I go to visit him and, honestly, I had gone there.
Like in hindsight I could nowsee that I had gone there
seeking more affirmation andpraise from my hero.
Drew (10:26):
Yeah.
Liz (10:27):
And for the next two hours he shreds my work.
He's like oh, I really haven'ttime to read the new chapters in
advance, so why don't I justread them aloud and give you my
thoughts real time?
Drew (10:41):
It's interesting.
Liz (10:43):
And he's like this is terrible, that's bad.
I don't agree.
That's aah.
And he's like this is terrible,that's bad, I don't agree.
That's a weak argument.
And for two hours.
And when we get done, he, youweren't expecting that, no, no,
Because what was the bait wasGirl.
Can you write?
That's what I heard, and andand you know, when we get done
(11:07):
with this, I'm like man, thatwas painful and he looks up for
what you know from like hisediting.
And he looked at me like Ithink, looking for approval,
that like he'd been helpful.
And I'm like Carrie, that waspainful, that was horrible, Like
the only thing that could havemade that worse was if I was
(11:27):
also naked while you were doingthat.
I was standing on a stage andeveryone was watching me while
you were doing that.
I'm like that was horrible.
And then he just smiled and hesaid, Liz, I'm giving you my
harshest feedback because Ithink your work deserves it and
I think you can handle it.
Drew (11:47):
Yeah, Liz, he knows you.
You've had a history prior and,like you've been able to have
that with Kerry, you've beenable to shape and mold and he
gave you a vision, which what agood leader does, and he gave
you that New York Timesbestseller for you and I could
see the excitement when you saidit's like, wow, that is a
(12:08):
vision I haven't even thought ofyet, and he just planted that
seed, he made you grow to thatlevel and he just he.
He planted that seed, he madeyou grow to that, to that level.
Liz (12:24):
Absolutely, and I hadn't thought of it and I hadn't had
that vision.
I think he might have even saidsomething like Liz, don't be
stupid, don't do a warm-up book.
And I'm thinking he's readingmy mind.
I probably was going to do likethis is my first one, let me
warm up and, like you know,maybe a few thousand people read
(12:47):
it, and he really sets thesesights like this could be
important and I think you can doit and you need to do it.
So like buck up and go do this.
And so for me, he was probablyone of my most influential
educators, most influentialleaders, and he also really
represents that the leaders whobring out the best in us are not
(13:11):
just supportive, like they domore than just create safety,
they add equal measures ofstretch, and it's when those
conditions come together that Ithink we do our best work.
Drew (13:25):
Yeah, absolutely Liz.
And so it goes to become a NewYork Times bestseller.
What was the response afterthat
Liz (13:56):
Well, a copy of the manuscript, like the final or
the book, and I wrote him thisletter and sort of recounted the
impact that he had on me,including that moment where he,
like, ripped me, who called meand told me, or if his assistant
told me, but he printed offthat letter and he framed it and
put it on his wall.
He told me he did that.
It was assistant who said youknow, it's the only thing on his
(14:16):
office wall, like, he doesn'tput up anything.
And this is someone who'sgotten fan mail for like and,
and I think it was um.
Drew (14:25):
I think he was proud to have made that contribution and
he was proud of me and I thinkhe was appreciative that I
recognized, like, what he haddone for me yeah, yeah, and it's
such a great story in terms ofwhat you can draw upon and how
(14:45):
it has shaped your amazingcareer and the impact it's
having multiplies across theglobe and in the education
context and in terms of going toeducation.
Let's talk about education inschools and what was the impact.
What are your favorite memories, liz, about education or
schooling?
Liz (15:07):
Well, I want to.
I graduated from high school in1982.
So I was of the generation thatwas like free range, you know,
where I had a childhood based inplay, not in pressure.
I'm, you know, or, as JonathanHaidts new book.
You know the Anxious Generation.
Drew (15:28):
I'm loving that book, Liz.
Have you finished it or not?
Liz (15:32):
I'm not entirely done.
Drew (15:35):
That whole anxiety and, oh my gosh, it's a fascinating
read, yeah.
Liz (15:41):
It is fascinating and you know, I'm realizing that, yeah,
I had this benefit of aplay-based childhood and I also
went to schools that were solidschools in California, but these
weren't elite schools, and I'mso grateful that I did not have
this education that was based inpressure, this education that
(16:09):
was based in pressure, and youknow, we had educators, both
teachers and educational leaders, who were permissive, and I
remember just kind of being verymuch in charge of my education
and, like my friends and I feltlike we ruled the school, like
we just started things, we didthings.
Nobody told us no, and I'm notsure if it's because they didn't
care.
They were just maybe glad thatwe weren't drug, you know,
(16:31):
dealers on campus or if they sawpromise in us.
I'm not sure, but the effectwas the same.
And you know, strangely, one ofmy most pronounced memories in
high school was this extracredit project I did, for it
(16:51):
must have been a world historyclass.
So I'm a little shy of thegrade I needed I'm probably a B
plus and I'm hoping to get an Ain this class and so I asked the
teacher if I could do extracredit.
And he knows that I sew, so Istarted sewing and designing
things when I was really youngand somehow word had gotten out,
(17:11):
maybe, I brought like a sewingproject into class and he said
OK, how about for extra credit?
He said my classroom couldreally use a set of European
flags.
And why don't you make me a setof European flags?
And I'm like I'd love to dothat.
So I made these little miniflags.
They were on wooden dowels,about yay big, and then you know
(17:33):
the like fabric for each one ofthe European countries.
And what I remember about thisis when I made them and we go to
install them, I realize thatall of the flags are going one
direction, but Sweden is thatthe blue and yellow flag.
I put it on backwards and it'sgoing the other direction.
(17:54):
And so I say to him you know,hey, I got to go redo this one.
And he said it's perfect, justthe way it is.
And he displayed these frontand center in his classroom,
like right above the whiteboard,the chalkboard, and I thought
that's awfully nice of him to dothat.
And I went back years later togo visit him and those same
(18:15):
flags were still up there.
And by golly, sweden isbackwards and it was good enough
.
And I think it's one of thethings I think.
Fortunately, I've been able toavoid some of the disease of
(18:36):
perfectionism that sometimesschools and teachers cause.
Drew (18:46):
And I really remember his reaction hey, it's great, just
the way it is.
Yeah, the feedback was he gaveyou a vision.
You accomplished that.
He gave you some creativity aswell, without the pressure
points of it, and accepted theresults and as a kid, you've
gone.
Yeah, I'm pretty good, this isgreat.
So validated that.
So that's nice, it's and that,and then era as we've we're
(19:10):
watching it in education likethat 80s, 90s period was a
really fantastic timerespectively now of being a kid,
because it's that child-basedplay, that ability to be
creative and interactive and allthose human traits that we all
crave.
So, yeah, so that's themultiply moment.
(19:33):
What about if we flip it toaccidental, diminishing memories
in school, anything that comesthrough without and this isn't a
therapy session, this is justthinking around was there
anything you went?
(19:54):
you know I can't think of anaccidentally mo moment per see
I, did grow up in the era whereteachers were quick to label
people like good at math, bad atmath.
And I remember my physicsteacher used to kind of tease me
(20:19):
and he would like be goingthrough a lesson and he'd always
stop and ask me Liz, you know,do you understand it?
And I'm like yeah, I got it.
And he's like, ok, we can moveon, Liz has got it.
You know, and I think it wasbecause I was maybe extroverted,
I was a cheerleader and so likehe would use me kind of as this
(20:41):
little lightning rod and it wasdone with, like it was playful,
and I experienced it as playfuland I remember kind of almost
feeling loved when he did that.
But then you know, when youlook in hindsight, boy, you know
a comment like that can reallydo some damage, and not in terms
(21:01):
of hurting someone, but keepingsomeone in a box that they
don't belong in.
And you know, now that I haveraised, for the most part, you
know, four now adult children,I've seen how sometimes a
comment from me can, like evenpointing out what someone is
(21:25):
good at, can imply what someoneisn't good at, and I've learned
to be more cautious with that.
Yeah, that's tricky, Liz.
I was going to go there next.
Liz, you said you're a motherof four and you've got a unique
perspective you've grown up within education.
Liz, what about your kids'educational journeys?
(21:47):
Have they had their multipliermoments in their schooling that
you could share?
Liz (21:53):
Oh, yes, and Drew, honestly this might make me cry, you
know, like tears of joy, because, as like a mother, like this is
what you hope for for yourchildren and, um, maybe I can
share a quick one from from eachchild, um, you know, our oldest
please, yeah, thank you, thankyou for sharing and, and, yeah,
(22:16):
being vulnerable too.
Yeah, yeah um, I'm like, I'mhappy to share this.
Um is, you know, our oldest.
Uh, we kind of put her inpreschool early and we put her
into kindergarten elementaryschool and she was still four,
because that's kind of the age Istarted and that seemed normal
(22:36):
to us.
But she was younger thaneveryone else and at the end of
her first year of kindergartenshe really wasn't ready to go on
to first grade.
So now we're grappling with dowe hold her back?
And this like feels high stakesand you know I had heard word
that the school was really goingto want to push her on.
So that you know, for lots ofreasons and I went into this
(23:00):
like IEP meeting this individualeducation plan there were the
various educational leaders andher teacher and the school
psychologist in this teamassembled and I remember her
teacher describing how much sheloved school, like school was a
joyous for her, it wasn't astruggle, but she was a little
bit like maybe clueless and notready to move on.
(23:23):
And I remember this one schoolleader saying this is a child
who clearly loves school and ifwe push her on she might feel
behind and it might jeopardizethat.
And this is what I remember andit's what makes me want to cry?
Because I cried at the time andthis leader said let's keep
(23:44):
this student loving school andlet's have her do kindergarten
again.
So she like maintains this loveand positive association with
school and I'm just like thankyou thank you for like, like
understanding, like that iswhat's going to carry her
through and of course she'sthriving today and, you know,
(24:06):
has done well and like.
That's the moment.
And you know, I rememberanother moment with our second
where her probably her second orthird grade teacher like said
hey, I'm kind of having thisproblem with Amanda because
she's taking longer thaneveryone else to finish things
(24:29):
and when it's time for a recessshe's not going out to recess
because she wants to finisheverything perfectly.
And this is our daughter who Idon't know that she, I think she
had one B in her entireelementary and high school
education and then maybe she hada B off at university.
(24:50):
Everything else has been justA's and she helped me see.
Oh, she loves to do thingsperfectly and she's diligent.
But I remember this teachersaying I'll stay in recess so
she can stay here and get itexactly the way she wants it to
be, and that early heads up thatthis is just who she was was
(25:15):
invaluable later.
That was one of these moments.
Drew (25:21):
Absolutely, Liz, and leveraging strengths can be
incredibly powerful.
However, without deepunderstanding of individual
traits, working styles, it canalso be misused.
Perfection, while seen as astrength, can also be weaponized
if it isn't handled with careIn the context of education.
These two stories reallyunderscore the profound faith
(25:43):
and dedication that teachersembody.
The teachers approach theirwork with love and commitment,
striving to bring out the bestin their students.
These are the multiply moments,where teachers recognize and
amplify the strengths of theirstudents and colleagues and
demonstrate theirtransformational power of
support and understand in theeducational context.
Liz (26:07):
Oh, absolutely.
And these moments are just soprecious.
And I remember with our third,our son, christian, who just has
always had like marched to thebeat of his own drum, as they
said, and always been likewildly creative and just wildly
energetic and in some ways likethe teacher's worst nightmare,
(26:28):
greatest dream kind of student.
I remember his fifth gradeteacher saying you know, here is
what he's brilliant at, and forthe entirety of his fifth grade
year she just emphasized hisstrengths as a student and what
he was good at, and that's whereshe put her eyes and I watched
him blossom.
(26:48):
And then I think it was hissenior year in high school.
He had this AP, so the advancedplacement, the college credit,
literature, and he was not astudent who was getting all A's
and so we were shocked that hewas taking AP literature, which
was one of the hardest classesin the school, from this beloved
(27:09):
, renowned literature teacher,Ms Atsuka, and I remember her
finding he adored her and Iremember her finding me on open
house night and saying you know,of all my years teaching, so
she's teaching all these likecollege prep, ivy League school,
(27:29):
kind of you know bound students, and she said he is the best
student I've ever had, by farthe most curious, insightful, et
cetera, et cetera.
My son got a C in her class andwhat I saw was like a teacher
who could separate out oh,here's the mechanics of his
(27:52):
performance like he didn't turnit in and she didn't give her
favorite student an A, but shecould see like this was someone
who just was thoughtful andloved learning and was curious
and was there for the rightreasons not to get an A and move
on.
And like a teacher who can seethat promise in a student who's
(28:12):
not necessarily ticking all theboxes Incredible.
And finally, you know my, ourlast, who is now in college as a
computer science major.
Just I remember like therelationship he had with his
computer science teacher andjust the way she made learning
about computers exciting and shewas also a mom and she said I
(28:36):
get it, I have kids goingthrough the same schools.
Like I know what you're upagainst.
If you ever find yourselfstruggling, come see me.
Absolutely.
It's all about relationships,vision and affirmation, isn't it
, Liz, where you'll work on themultiplier moments, on
highlighting how recognizing andamplifying strengths can lead
(28:58):
to remarkable growth and success.
When someone sees potential inyou, and you might even see it
in yourself, that fosters asense of confidence as well as
ambition.
And and these stories, it'sevident the way in which
teachers engage with theirstudents, offering positive
affirmations, is setting a highexpectation that students are
(29:18):
eager to meet.
So, from an educationalperspective, these multiply
moments are pivotal.
They constantly emerge in theclassroom and this approach
resonated exceptionally wellwith the educational landscape,
particularly in our context.
(30:07):
Perhaps unintentionally, actions or behaviors have
stifled potential?
Without delving into particularwar stories, can you share some
examples of how accidentaldiminishing, or yourself as a
parent?
It was one of our kids I'll leteveryone guess who that was who
kind of got himself in troublefor, like you know, roughing it
up with some of the other boys,and you know he wasn't picking
fights but he just wasn'tfollowing all of the politically
correct rules.
You know he's a freshman inhigh school and I remember you
know the educator saying well,he can't say that, he can't do
(30:28):
that, he can't treat that personthis way because like that's
got hints of bullying and wejust can't tolerate that.
And I remember thinking, youknow what, we might be being a
little short-sighted, we mightbe overly protecting our
students in the name of safetyand anti-bullying, all of which
(30:48):
are important, but like kids gotto work that out themselves.
And you know, maybe it would bebetter to let him learn from
the consequences of his actionsrather than, you know, getting a
hand slap from the school.
And you know, as we learn moreand more about the consequences
(31:10):
and I think the AnxiousGeneration and the book by
Jonathan Haidt, you know, reallyemphasize that there are
certain things in adolescencethat kids have to learn kid to
kid, that I think.
Sometimes I've seenadministrators hover too much to
protect a student body that itactually suppresses learning.
(31:30):
So I've seen that.
Liz, Mistakes are essentialfor growth and development.
A hover approach or a hoverover approach might provide a
temporary fix, but it doesn'tlead to a long-term or long-term
solutions.
Instead, we need to focus onfostering independence, and
(31:51):
resilience came through inHaight's work.
Now, moving into the concept ofintelligence, we flip to that.
You've explored thisextensively in your research,
particularly with the Multipliesframework.
From an educational leadershipperspective, how do you see
intelligence fitting into thisframework?
You've unpacked this conceptvery cleverly in your work.
(32:17):
Could you expand on how youperceive intelligence in the
context of educationalleadership and how it aligns
with the Multiplies approach?
Yeah, well, when I began the research, I started with a
pretty clear definition ofintelligence.
And you know it's this, ofcourse, this ability to think
and reason and solve hardproblems.
(32:38):
But it's also adaptive innature.
It's not just the ability tofind an answer, it's this
ability to adapt and change andlearn as the world around us is
changing.
So it's this verygrowth-oriented view of
intelligence which I think is,you know, very compatible with,
(33:01):
like, carol Dweck's work andCarol and I actually had some
fun, like she was one of thepeople who weighed in early on
some of my research but it'salso this notion that you know
intelligence exists in manyforms and you know it exists in
(33:21):
technicolor rather than blackand white.
And I think that's probably thecommon message of maybe what I
shared in educators who weremultipliers to my children is
they saw my children not as likeunits moving through a system,
but as unique individuals withtheir own strengths, their own
(33:44):
vulnerabilities and like how dowe respect and appreciate
intelligence in all its forms?
Drew (33:52):
Absolutely, Liz.
Your stories perfectlyhighlight the importance of
looking beyond the systems,grades and averages to focus on
the human aspects of education.
It's all about getting the bestout of humanity.
You mentioned the work ofJonathan Haidt, which adds
another layer to our discussionon the evolution of schooling
and education we're workingthrough.
(34:13):
It's a fascinating area toexplore.
Now I'd like to talk about thevalues of our association.
You might know that the FranklinCovey aligns with the New South
Wales Primary PrincipalsAssociation.
The multiplier framework hasbeen incredibly successful with
us to date, reflecting on ourcore values of support, empower,
(34:36):
advocate and lead.
We also integrate otherleadership frameworks from
Franklin Covey, such as theSeven Habits of Highly Effective
People and the Speed of Trust.
These frameworks havesignificantly contributed to our
approach and successes ineducational leadership in New
South Wales.
Now I'm going to read this toyou.
(34:56):
This is actually an extractionfrom a website from the late
Stephen Covey In 2010,.
Stephen Covey considered theimpact of multipliers could have
in the world and he musedimpact of multipliers could have
in the world and he mused justimagine what would happen in our
world if every leader on theplanet took one step from
diminisher to multiplier,serendipitously through the very
(35:21):
company that Dr Coveyco-founded.
Millions of leaders will takeup this step within the next
decade.
Imagine that, and Liz, that isfrom, obviously, the Wiseman
Group.
Liz, our audience would love tohear more about any real world
success stories with multipliersthat you could share.
Any instances of multipliers inaction, whether in education or
(35:45):
leadership or another context,would be fascinating.
Are there any multipliermoments or stories that stand
out?
Is there any multiplier momentsor stories from an educational
perspective or leadershipperspective you could say has
come through, that you couldshare?
Liz (36:07):
Well, boy, it's been a great privilege to watch
organizations play with theseideas, adopt them, embed them
deeply in their thinking andhave's happening with
educational systems around theworld, and it's thrilling to
(36:32):
watch.
Maybe two that come to mind.
One is a medical school thattook the ideas and said you know
what we need to not only bemultipliers ourselves, we need
to raise physician leaders whoare going to be multipliers not
know it alls and so we're goingto completely rebuild our
(36:54):
medical education curriculum toraise multipliers, and that's
what we're producing.
We're producing physicians whoare multiplier leaders, and to
see the dean of that medicalschool so deeply embraced the
concepts and reinvent thatmedical education process was
really interesting.
(37:15):
Another that I learned aboutjust recently was the work of
Amy Ruzicka, who is thesuperintendent at the Bayless
School District in St Louis,missouri.
Now, this is an inner cityschool district that has all the
challenges of a very diversepopulation macro, economic
(37:38):
challenge, demographic challenge.
She took over as asuperintendent in February of
2022.
And she had read Multipliers orthe Multiplier Effect one of
those two books and she wantedto share it with her team and I
think she decided it was goingto be one of the foundations for
her leadership in this schooldistrict and she started by
(38:02):
doing a book study not a bigcurriculum, a book study across
her entire leadership team.
And she did something verysimple but very powerful.
She asked all of her teammembers to focus on one
multiplier experiment based ontheir accidental diminisher
tendencies.
Just one like, just focus onone things.
(38:24):
And then she incorporated thatinto each one of their
professional development plansyou know their own individual
plans and then she just stayedat it.
And it's one of the things wesee with leaders who really
transform their organizations.
It's not that they do somethingamazing hand-weighting or
(38:44):
something expensive, they juststay at it.
And she supported this withcheck-ins.
She's letting people know likeI'm really serious about this.
She made some personnel changeswhere it became clear certain
school leaders principals werereally not going to be able to
lead this way.
(39:05):
She said, well, we're going tohave to, you're going to have to
lead somewhere else.
That's not the kind ofleadership our community and our
students and our teachersdeserve.
They spent about 18 months ofjust a year and a half in her
words like fully walking out themultiplier's work.
She shared with me how theirschool climate has changed.
(39:29):
I pulled together a few of these.
Supportive relationships up sixpoints.
School climate up 13 points ontheir school climate survey.
School leadership up 25 points.
You know, on the 10-point scale, the school district achieved
top growths for math and Englishlanguage learners.
(39:53):
They became listed in the topworkplaces in 2013 and received
the National School District ofCharacter Award in 2013.
2013, she was namedSuperintendent of the Year, you
(40:18):
know, in Greater St Louis, andall at a very short period of
time and again, it wasn't magic.
It was just this calm but veryclear persistence of this is the
kind of leadership our studentsdeserve, our teachers deserve,
and this is the way we're goingto lead here, and if you don't
want to lead that way, I inviteyou to lead somewhere else.
(40:42):
But this is how we roll hereand she stayed on it with good
educational follow-up.
Drew (40:49):
Yeah, Liz, what a great story and the power of that is
you're showing the work and howyou started with the medical and
how fascinating that is for youto watch your work being
incorporated into medicine andthe impact that it has.
And then we move into educationand seeing the impact that that
(41:11):
has.
You must sit back and go wow,that's exciting to watch unpack
and unfold and do you seeyourself pinching yourself and
you go.
That is part of what I've donefrom a distance.
Liz (41:25):
It's absolutely thrilling to watch and you know.
To come back maybe where westarted our conversation, drew,
is you know, I don't think I hadthat vision.
When I started I had a I had abee in my bonnet, as we say,
like I had a bug about.
Okay, this diminishingleadership is bothering me.
I've done the research, I'velearned some things and I need
(41:47):
to like write it up and get itout there.
I just I didn't realize theimpact that would have and how
the idea would in some wayschange the way we think about
what normal leadership and whatgood leadership looks like today
.
But it was.
It took a multiplier like aCarrie Patterson who say, hey,
(42:08):
you know what, this is a bigidea and you go, do your best
work on this and don't you getlazy.
Absolutely, liz.
Your point undefinedexpectations is crucial.
The story you mentioned aboutthe superintendent is a perfect
(42:32):
example.
They frame the situation byrecognizing that sometimes there
isn't an alignment of values.
They communicated that, whilesomeone could still be a leader,
it might not be the currentcontext if their values don't
align.
And then the superintendentmoved this individual to another
area, ensuring that they hadthe right people around them to
support that vision.
(42:55):
And you know what really struck me about that.
I am, as background, thedaughter of an educator and an
educational leader, so my momwas a principal of a school
district.
I know a little bit about justall of the constraints school
leaders and superintendentsoperate and, like all the
(43:15):
pressures from the community.
And you know, as I'm talking toAmy, I'm like, but wasn't it
hard to make personnel changes,Weren't your hands tied?
Like you can't just go aroundmoving people because you want
to Like there's laws and allthis.
And when it became clear isthat the community was so behind
(43:36):
her because they're seeing howthis affects their children and
their schools and theircommunities and it's like they
were bought into what she wasdoing for the school.
And so you're like, okay, ifyou've got to, like you know,
break some eggs to make anomelet, we're with you.
Drew (43:56):
Yeah, it goes back to the purpose here.
The purpose is to multiply thepotential of our students, staff
and leaders and by focusing onintelligence, we aim to maximize
the capability of everyone'sinvolvement and this approach
has had a significant flow andeffect, enhancing the entire
educational ecosystem in yourexample.
(44:17):
We're in the early phases ofthis work, but it is incredibly
exciting for us as anassociation to witness and
support this growth.
Now I wanted to segue more intothe next topic of coaching.
It's another crucial areawithin the framework of
multipliers.
Currently, we offer a one-daydelivery of multipliers but, as
(44:39):
you mentioned with the exampleof the superintendent, that was
an 18-month process to trulydemonstrate the impact For our
listeners who want to divedeeper into multipliers.
Liz, where do you see coachingfitting in?
Would you recommendincorporating coaching after
completing the multiplierscourse?
How would you guide individualswho have already gone through
(45:01):
the multipliers training interms of continuing their
development through?
Would you incorporate coaching?
Liz (45:09):
you know absolutely, and it's almost like you can't
really implement multiplierleadership without a good
coaching toolkit and I wouldn'tadvise someone try to do that
without having coaching skills.
And we go back to that baylessschool district in um, missouri
in the united states.
I think it was one of thethings, if I'm remembering right
(45:32):
, that these personnel decisionspivoted on that.
Some leaders were just notwilling to play that coach role,
to build that coaching set.
They wanted to call the shots,they wanted to be sort of in
charge, and it was probably thatmight've been the fundamental
shift they were not able to make.
(45:53):
And it is very typical.
We see organizations I can thinkof several school districts.
I think one in particular,beaverton Schools up in Oregon,
which Beaverton probably maybenot known to anyone in New South
Wales other than it's theheadquarters of Nike.
And Nike has been a big adopterof the multiplier's ideas, as
(46:17):
have the schools in that area.
But you know I remember it wasa big part of their effort was
coaching skills and we've seenthat in other school districts,
in other organizations is notlong after leaders are exposed
to the multiplier ideas and atthe core of that is this ability
(46:37):
to shift out of the mode ofproviding answers as a leader
and and asking questions thatget other people thinking, and
to do that well, you end upbuilding a coaching habit, and
so there's a lot of greatcoaching programs.
The Coaching Habit happens to beone of those as well.
(47:00):
Fellow Australian, michaelBungay-Stanier.
His work on Coaching Habit isone that I know of as well, as
Franklin Covey had a toolkitsfor this.
But if there's a skill to godeep on, it's how to ask good
questions and help people figurethings out on their own.
Drew (47:26):
Absolutely, liz, and your work clearly highlights this for
our listeners.
It's important to understandthat multiplies is not just a
one-day course.
Our goal is to interrogate thisinto a long-term systemic
change focusing on alteringpatterns of behavior and
thinking.
Information and the examplesyou've shared reaffirm that
(47:48):
coaching is essential to ensurethis change occurs over time.
So what I'm hearing is withoutcoaching, there's a risk of the
one day course being just a goodfeel-good session.
While some will succeedimmediately, others will need to
continuously support to have along-term impact.
(48:08):
A coaching model is crucial tounderpin this work, helping to
reinforce and embed the changesneeded to truly become effective
multipliers.
Liz (48:21):
Yeah, and I think, drew, it's not just the soft side of
coaching which is like let meserve as a coach and help talk
them through it.
It's the full range of coachingwhich is like, oh, let me kind
of serve as a coach and helpkind of talk them through it.
It's the full range of coach,which is the coach who has a
really high aspiration, likehere's what it takes to win and
here's what winning looks like,and you know, here's what human
(48:45):
performance looks like.
And here are the principles,like you don't get the results
without putting in the effort.
And the reps, like it's thatpart of coaching as well, not
just the let me be a neutral,non-evaluating like facilitator
of their thought process yeah,there needs to be a sense of
(49:06):
accountability.
Drew (49:07):
Without it, as you mentioned Liz, everything can
become superficial, what wemight call fluffy here in
Australia.
There's no substance or followthrough, then the impact is
minimal.
Liz (49:20):
That's like a hiking buddy.
That's not a coach.
Drew (49:24):
Absolutely, liz, and having a coach keeps you
accountable and ensures a realfollow through.
It must have been challengingfor that superintendent to make
those tough calls, but afterseveral discussions they made
the necessary decision andyou're spot on about the human
resource perspective.
Navigating the legal aspects ofthese decisions is complex, but
(49:47):
the impact, when aligned with amultipliers framework, is
substantial.
So let's move forward.
We've had a great discussiontoday covering various aspects
of your work, including themultipliers moments and those of
your kids.
For those listeners, do youhave any final thoughts or
advice for our listeners who arethinking about implementing
(50:10):
multipliers in their schools?
Any guidance for those lookingto make lasting impact?
Liz (50:21):
Well, I think there are two reasons to be a multiplier
leader, and both kind of can getyou there, but in one way to
look at it is you want to leadthis way because you get more
from people, and I think thatwas what was so shocking to me
in the research is howdiminishing leaders were getting
(50:42):
less than half of people'savailable intelligence, whereas
multipliers were gettingvirtually all of of it.
It's a 2x effect broadly, butwhen we go into our school
districts it starts to look morelike a 3x difference.
And and there is a compellingreason to lead this way, which
is, you know, my shortunderstanding like, or my
(51:05):
summary of my understanding ofthe challenges in education is
like education has all thechallenges that businesses and
for profit having they just havethem.
I think, in in like sharperways.
In sharper ways, I think theproblems are a little bit more
acute and harder.
So, like, educational leadersneed to be able to do more by
(51:26):
getting more from people.
That's one reason.
But I'm always reminded and whenI think of myself as a leader
and like why I want to lead thisway, some of it comes to gee.
I want to get the most frompeople because we got hard
problems to solve and I needthis.
But I remind myself that thereal reason to lead this way is
(51:48):
about legacy, and not just howmuch you get from people, but
what kind of work experience doyou offer and what's the impact
on the people you lead?
And how do you really want tobe remembered as a leader?
And when I boil it down to you,know what I've learned from 35
years of leading and my ownresearch is, you know, I want to
(52:12):
be remembered as a leader.
People grow around and maybethat's it, and it's about
getting more, but it's alsoabout giving to people an
experience that feels lessexhausting and more exhilarating
.
Feels less exhausting and moreexhilarating.
Drew (52:30):
Well, Liz, your work is truly making a significant
impact in the educationallandscape, both globally and
here in Australia, New SouthWales.
I want to thank you for yourresearch and dedication to
empowering everyone to become amultiplier leader.
It's been fantastic having youwith us here today and thank you
again, once again, for yourtime and insights.
Liz (52:54):
Well, it's my pleasure and I want to thank everyone who's
read the book or gone throughthe course or just entertained
the ideas and had a go with them.
I hope it really makes adifference for people friends
(53:16):
for people To our listeners.
Drew (53:17):
if you've been inspired to become a multiplier from our
conversation today, we inviteyou to enroll in our multiplies
course.
Principals, executive networksinterested in learning more can
reach out to us directly.
We heard about the remarkableimpact that multiplies is having
with even superintendentsacross the globe, as well as
educational leaders globally,and we're excited to bring that
(53:37):
to New South Wales.
Further details visit ourwebsite at newsouthwalesppaorgau
.
Forward slash multiplies.
Hello and welcome to Season 2 of the Principal
Learnings Podcast.
If you're a principal oreducational leader looking to
enhance your skills, this is theplace for you, so let's get
into it, let's embark on thislearning journey together.
Liz (00:18):
I think there are two reasons to be a multiplier
leader, and both kind of can getyou there, but in one way to
look at it is you want to leadthis way because you get more
from people.
And I think that was what wasso shocking to me in the
research is how diminishingleaders were getting less than
(00:39):
half of people's availableintelligence, whereas
multipliers were gettingvirtually all of it available
intelligence, whereasmultipliers we're getting
virtually all of it.
It's a 2x effect broadly, butwhen we go into our school
districts it starts to look morelike a 3x difference.
And there is a compellingreason to lead this way, which
is, you know, my shortunderstanding, or my summary of
(01:02):
my understanding of thechallenges in education is like
education has all the challengesin education is like education
has all the challenges thatbusinesses and for-profit having
.
They just have them, I think,in in like sharper ways.
In sharper ways, I think theproblems are a little bit more
acute and harder.
So, like educational leadersneed to be able to do more by
(01:22):
getting more from people.
That's one reason.
But I'm always reminded and whenI think of myself as a leader
and like why I want to lead thisway, some of it comes to gee, I
want to get the most frompeople because we got hard
problems to solve and I needthis, but I remind myself that
(01:42):
the real reason to lead this wayis about legacy, and not just
how much you get from people,but what kind of work experience
do you offer and what's theimpact on the people you lead?
And how do you really want tobe remembered as a leader?
And when I boil it down to youknow what I've learned from 35
(02:04):
years of leading, and my ownresearch is you know, I want to
be remembered as a leader.
People grow around and maybethat's it, and it's about
getting more, but it's alsoabout giving to people an
experience that feels lessexhausting and more exhilarating
(02:24):
.
Feels less exhausting and moreexhilarating.
Drew (02:28):
Today's episode is dedicated to unpacking the work
of Liz Wiseman with a focus onMultipliers, which is a new
addition to the New South WalesPrimary Principals Association
Professional Learning Suite thathas been gaining a lot of
popularity with schools,executives and principal
networks across New South Wales.
I'm really looking forward tosharing this discussion that we
(02:49):
have with Liz, as well as theimpact and relevance of
multipliers in the educationalleadership landscape.
Liz, Wiseman, to our podcast.
It's great to have you with usand I'm looking forward to our
discussion today.
Liz (03:05):
Well, it's absolutely a pleasure to be with you, and I
look forward to thisconversation.
Drew (03:11):
Yeah, so am I.
I'm really looking forward towhere we're really going to look
at from your work in theeducational leadership space.
We're going to start withleadership development, though,
is your work is about shapingeffective leaders.
What was a particular moment orinfluence in your career that
(03:33):
sparked your passion, Liz, inthis field?
Liz (03:37):
I feel like my career was very much shaped by educators
and educational leaders and Ithink you know probably the
sharpest moments where I wasshaped by that was one being a
student in uni in CarriePatterson's OB 321 class, that's
(04:00):
Organizational Behavior 321.
I'm an undergraduate, it's acourse you know, and my
undergraduate degree was infinance and I took this
organizational behavior classfrom the great and now
unfortunately late CarriePatterson, who had written a
number of best-selling booksPeople might know them from
(04:21):
Crucial Conversations andCrucial Confrontations and Inf
confrontations and influence herand change anything.
I imagine some of yourlisteners have read these books.
And he was my professor and Ithink I fell in love with the
subject matter of interpersonalcommunications and leadership
(04:43):
and I kind of fell in love withthe idea of doing the kind of
work Kerry was doing and he verymuch inspired me and I ended up
going to work for him and itwas the only job that I ever
desperately wanted, where, likewhen I'm interviewing, I'm like,
oh, don't screw this up, liz,I'm trying to use Jedi mind
(05:06):
tricks to hire me for the job.
And I went to work for him andhe was this incredible
multiplier to me and someone whobelieved in me, gave me hard
things to do but also didn'ttolerate me doing anything less
than great work.
And I remember vividly turningin sloppy work to him and having
(05:31):
him kind of respond with no,not okay.
And you know there's this onemoment where you know he was a
great thinker and a great authorand so so brilliant.
I'm editing some of his writingand you know I'm fixing up a
bunch of stuff and I get to thisone part that was really
(05:52):
convoluted and sort of a tangleof words and I'm like, oh, that
needs to be fixed.
And I remember writing AWK inthe margin you know standard
editorial term for awkward andI'm like, kerry, he's so smart,
(06:14):
you know he was my professor,you know he'll know how to fix
this.
I just need to like point outwhat's not working and he'll fix
it with that great big brain ofhis.
And you know I did all my editsand took my the document over,
left it on his desk while he wasat lunch and I could tell he
had come back from lunch and Icould tell he was coming to see
me because I could hear him likemarching down the hallway like
(06:35):
aggressively toward my office.
And you know he pops in and hedoesn't say hello, he doesn't
say anything, he just looks atme like eye contact, and he said
don't you ever give me an AWKwithout an FIX?
Like don't point out what'swrong, like, fix it.
(06:58):
I hired you because I thinkyou're smart and capable,
whatever.
And I remember him walking overand he did it, of course, with
this twinkle in his eye, like agreat educator would, and just
dropped that document on my deskwith this thud, with no other
explanation than don't you evergive me an AWK without an FIX.
(07:18):
And I was like, okay, I thinkI've just been schooled a little
bit and let me think a littleharder, let me fix this problem.
And then I kind of sheepishlytook it back and, you know,
returned it to him.
But he was this, I think,person that made me fall in love
with the idea of the power ofleaders and the ability to like
(07:45):
direct and shape and influenceand make an impact in the world,
but also this ability toengender people's best thinking
and best work.
And so carrie was someone whowas an educator, he was a leader
, he was, you know, my boss.
I did this internship for himwho kind of set me down this
path.
Drew (08:06):
Yeah, that was your multiplier moment.
Liz (08:09):
Yeah, and you know it was also like and I think the way he
works like reminded me thatbeing a multiplier leader is not
about being kind, supportive,nice, trusting, empowering.
It's also coupled with beingdemanding.
Drew (08:31):
Yeah.
Liz (08:32):
You know, I remember, you know fast forward.
Oh goodness, this is probablytwo, almost three decades later
where I've done the researchbehind multipliers and I've
written, I'm writing this book.
And I reach out to him.
I'm like Kiri, they want me towrite a book proposal.
I have no idea how to do that.
(08:52):
And he's like I tell him theidea and he said well, this is
such a good idea that I'm justmad I didn't think of it.
And then he said to me don'twrite a warm-up book.
He said this is an importantidea.
You go and write a big book.
(09:13):
He said you write a New YorkTimes bestselling book, because
that's what this idea needs.
And it really raised my sightson this.
And he said and I'd be happy togive you feedback.
And oh my gosh, karius is likebrilliant writer, brilliant
thinker.
I'm like I'll take that offer.
And you know, I send him acouple chapters and writes back
(09:40):
like 45 minutes after I hadmailed them to him.
You know, emailed them.
He writes me back and he's likegirl, have you done your
homework?
You know?
And girl, can you write?
And I'm just like swelling withconfidence and pride and I'm
just so delighted that he'spleased.
And then he said you know whydon't you come to my office and
(10:02):
make an appointment, like let'sget two hours and I'll go
through and give you somedetailed feedback, and I'm like
great.
Drew (10:09):
Yeah.
Liz (10:10):
So I fly two states away.
I go to visit him and, honestly, I had gone there.
Like in hindsight I could nowsee that I had gone there
seeking more affirmation andpraise from my hero.
Drew (10:26):
Yeah.
Liz (10:27):
And for the next two hours he shreds my work.
He's like oh, I really haven'ttime to read the new chapters in
advance, so why don't I justread them aloud and give you my
thoughts real time?
Drew (10:41):
It's interesting.
Liz (10:43):
And he's like this is terrible, that's bad.
I don't agree.
That's aah.
And he's like this is terrible,that's bad, I don't agree.
That's a weak argument.
And for two hours.
And when we get done, he, youweren't expecting that, no, no,
Because what was the bait wasGirl.
Can you write?
That's what I heard, and andand you know, when we get done
(11:07):
with this, I'm like man, thatwas painful and he looks up for
what you know from like hisediting.
And he looked at me like Ithink, looking for approval,
that like he'd been helpful.
And I'm like Carrie, that waspainful, that was horrible, Like
the only thing that could havemade that worse was if I was
(11:27):
also naked while you were doingthat.
I was standing on a stage andeveryone was watching me while
you were doing that.
I'm like that was horrible.
And then he just smiled and hesaid, Liz, I'm giving you my
harshest feedback because Ithink your work deserves it and
I think you can handle it.
Drew (11:47):
Yeah, Liz, he knows you.
You've had a history prior and,like you've been able to have
that with Kerry, you've beenable to shape and mold and he
gave you a vision, which what agood leader does, and he gave
you that New York Timesbestseller for you and I could
see the excitement when you saidit's like, wow, that is a
(12:08):
vision I haven't even thought ofyet, and he just planted that
seed, he made you grow to thatlevel and he just he.
He planted that seed, he madeyou grow to that, to that level.
Liz (12:24):
Absolutely, and I hadn't thought of it and I hadn't had
that vision.
I think he might have even saidsomething like Liz, don't be
stupid, don't do a warm-up book.
And I'm thinking he's readingmy mind.
I probably was going to do likethis is my first one, let me
warm up and, like you know,maybe a few thousand people read
(12:47):
it, and he really sets thesesights like this could be
important and I think you can doit and you need to do it.
So like buck up and go do this.
And so for me, he was probablyone of my most influential
educators, most influentialleaders, and he also really
represents that the leaders whobring out the best in us are not
(13:11):
just supportive, like they domore than just create safety,
they add equal measures ofstretch, and it's when those
conditions come together that Ithink we do our best work.
Drew (13:25):
Yeah, absolutely Liz.
And so it goes to become a NewYork Times bestseller.
What was the response afterthat
Liz (13:56):
Well, a copy of the manuscript, like the final or
the book, and I wrote him thisletter and sort of recounted the
impact that he had on me,including that moment where he,
like, ripped me, who called meand told me, or if his assistant
told me, but he printed offthat letter and he framed it and
put it on his wall.
He told me he did that.
It was assistant who said youknow, it's the only thing on his
(14:16):
office wall, like, he doesn'tput up anything.
And this is someone who'sgotten fan mail for like and,
and I think it was um.
Drew (14:25):
I think he was proud to have made that contribution and
he was proud of me and I thinkhe was appreciative that I
recognized, like, what he haddone for me yeah, yeah, and it's
such a great story in terms ofwhat you can draw upon and how
(14:45):
it has shaped your amazingcareer and the impact it's
having multiplies across theglobe and in the education
context and in terms of going toeducation.
Let's talk about education inschools and what was the impact.
What are your favorite memories, liz, about education or
schooling?
Liz (15:07):
Well, I want to.
I graduated from high school in1982.
So I was of the generation thatwas like free range, you know,
where I had a childhood based inplay, not in pressure.
I'm, you know, or, as JonathanHaidts new book.
You know the Anxious Generation.
Drew (15:28):
I'm loving that book, Liz.
Have you finished it or not?
Liz (15:32):
I'm not entirely done.
Drew (15:35):
That whole anxiety and, oh my gosh, it's a fascinating
read, yeah.
Liz (15:41):
It is fascinating and you know, I'm realizing that, yeah,
I had this benefit of aplay-based childhood and I also
went to schools that were solidschools in California, but these
weren't elite schools, and I'mso grateful that I did not have
this education that was based inpressure, this education that
(16:09):
was based in pressure, and youknow, we had educators, both
teachers and educational leaders, who were permissive, and I
remember just kind of being verymuch in charge of my education
and, like my friends and I feltlike we ruled the school, like
we just started things, we didthings.
Nobody told us no, and I'm notsure if it's because they didn't
care.
They were just maybe glad thatwe weren't drug, you know,
(16:31):
dealers on campus or if they sawpromise in us.
I'm not sure, but the effectwas the same.
And you know, strangely, one ofmy most pronounced memories in
high school was this extracredit project I did, for it
(16:51):
must have been a world historyclass.
So I'm a little shy of thegrade I needed I'm probably a B
plus and I'm hoping to get an Ain this class and so I asked the
teacher if I could do extracredit.
And he knows that I sew, so Istarted sewing and designing
things when I was really youngand somehow word had gotten out,
(17:11):
maybe, I brought like a sewingproject into class and he said
OK, how about for extra credit?
He said my classroom couldreally use a set of European
flags.
And why don't you make me a setof European flags?
And I'm like I'd love to dothat.
So I made these little miniflags.
They were on wooden dowels,about yay big, and then you know
(17:33):
the like fabric for each one ofthe European countries.
And what I remember about thisis when I made them and we go to
install them, I realize thatall of the flags are going one
direction, but Sweden is thatthe blue and yellow flag.
I put it on backwards and it'sgoing the other direction.
(17:54):
And so I say to him you know,hey, I got to go redo this one.
And he said it's perfect, justthe way it is.
And he displayed these frontand center in his classroom,
like right above the whiteboard,the chalkboard, and I thought
that's awfully nice of him to dothat.
And I went back years later togo visit him and those same
(18:15):
flags were still up there.
And by golly, sweden isbackwards and it was good enough
.
And I think it's one of thethings I think.
Fortunately, I've been able toavoid some of the disease of
(18:36):
perfectionism that sometimesschools and teachers cause.
Drew (18:46):
And I really remember his reaction hey, it's great, just
the way it is.
Yeah, the feedback was he gaveyou a vision.
You accomplished that.
He gave you some creativity aswell, without the pressure
points of it, and accepted theresults and as a kid, you've
gone.
Yeah, I'm pretty good, this isgreat.
So validated that.
So that's nice, it's and that,and then era as we've we're
(19:10):
watching it in education likethat 80s, 90s period was a
really fantastic timerespectively now of being a kid,
because it's that child-basedplay, that ability to be
creative and interactive and allthose human traits that we all
crave.
So, yeah, so that's themultiply moment.
(19:33):
What about if we flip it toaccidental, diminishing memories
in school, anything that comesthrough without and this isn't a
therapy session, this is justthinking around was there
anything you went?
(19:54):
you know I can't think of anaccidentally mo moment per see
I, did grow up in the era whereteachers were quick to label
people like good at math, bad atmath.
And I remember my physicsteacher used to kind of tease me
(20:19):
and he would like be goingthrough a lesson and he'd always
stop and ask me Liz, you know,do you understand it?
And I'm like yeah, I got it.
And he's like, ok, we can moveon, Liz has got it.
You know, and I think it wasbecause I was maybe extroverted,
I was a cheerleader and so likehe would use me kind of as this
(20:41):
little lightning rod and it wasdone with, like it was playful,
and I experienced it as playfuland I remember kind of almost
feeling loved when he did that.
But then you know, when youlook in hindsight, boy, you know
a comment like that can reallydo some damage, and not in terms
(21:01):
of hurting someone, but keepingsomeone in a box that they
don't belong in.
And you know, now that I haveraised, for the most part, you
know, four now adult children,I've seen how sometimes a
comment from me can, like evenpointing out what someone is
(21:25):
good at, can imply what someoneisn't good at, and I've learned
to be more cautious with that.
Yeah, that's tricky, Liz.
I was going to go there next.
Liz, you said you're a motherof four and you've got a unique
perspective you've grown up within education.
Liz, what about your kids'educational journeys?
(21:47):
Have they had their multipliermoments in their schooling that
you could share?
Liz (21:53):
Oh, yes, and Drew, honestly this might make me cry, you
know, like tears of joy, because, as like a mother, like this is
what you hope for for yourchildren and, um, maybe I can
share a quick one from from eachchild, um, you know, our oldest
please, yeah, thank you, thankyou for sharing and, and, yeah,
(22:16):
being vulnerable too.
Yeah, yeah um, I'm like, I'mhappy to share this.
Um is, you know, our oldest.
Uh, we kind of put her inpreschool early and we put her
into kindergarten elementaryschool and she was still four,
because that's kind of the age Istarted and that seemed normal
(22:36):
to us.
But she was younger thaneveryone else and at the end of
her first year of kindergartenshe really wasn't ready to go on
to first grade.
So now we're grappling with dowe hold her back?
And this like feels high stakesand you know I had heard word
that the school was really goingto want to push her on.
So that you know, for lots ofreasons and I went into this
(23:00):
like IEP meeting this individualeducation plan there were the
various educational leaders andher teacher and the school
psychologist in this teamassembled and I remember her
teacher describing how much sheloved school, like school was a
joyous for her, it wasn't astruggle, but she was a little
bit like maybe clueless and notready to move on.
(23:23):
And I remember this one schoolleader saying this is a child
who clearly loves school and ifwe push her on she might feel
behind and it might jeopardizethat.
And this is what I remember andit's what makes me want to cry?
Because I cried at the time andthis leader said let's keep
(23:44):
this student loving school andlet's have her do kindergarten
again.
So she like maintains this loveand positive association with
school and I'm just like thankyou thank you for like, like
understanding, like that iswhat's going to carry her
through and of course she'sthriving today and, you know,
(24:06):
has done well and like.
That's the moment.
And you know, I rememberanother moment with our second
where her probably her second orthird grade teacher like said
hey, I'm kind of having thisproblem with Amanda because
she's taking longer thaneveryone else to finish things
(24:29):
and when it's time for a recessshe's not going out to recess
because she wants to finisheverything perfectly.
And this is our daughter who Idon't know that she, I think she
had one B in her entireelementary and high school
education and then maybe she hada B off at university.
(24:50):
Everything else has been justA's and she helped me see.
Oh, she loves to do thingsperfectly and she's diligent.
But I remember this teachersaying I'll stay in recess so
she can stay here and get itexactly the way she wants it to
be, and that early heads up thatthis is just who she was was
(25:15):
invaluable later.
That was one of these moments.
Drew (25:21):
Absolutely, Liz, and leveraging strengths can be
incredibly powerful.
However, without deepunderstanding of individual
traits, working styles, it canalso be misused.
Perfection, while seen as astrength, can also be weaponized
if it isn't handled with careIn the context of education.
These two stories reallyunderscore the profound faith
(25:43):
and dedication that teachersembody.
The teachers approach theirwork with love and commitment,
striving to bring out the bestin their students.
These are the multiply moments,where teachers recognize and
amplify the strengths of theirstudents and colleagues and
demonstrate theirtransformational power of
support and understand in theeducational context.
Liz (26:07):
Oh, absolutely.
And these moments are just soprecious.
And I remember with our third,our son, christian, who just has
always had like marched to thebeat of his own drum, as they
said, and always been likewildly creative and just wildly
energetic and in some ways likethe teacher's worst nightmare,
(26:28):
greatest dream kind of student.
I remember his fifth gradeteacher saying you know, here is
what he's brilliant at, and forthe entirety of his fifth grade
year she just emphasized hisstrengths as a student and what
he was good at, and that's whereshe put her eyes and I watched
him blossom.
(26:48):
And then I think it was hissenior year in high school.
He had this AP, so the advancedplacement, the college credit,
literature, and he was not astudent who was getting all A's
and so we were shocked that hewas taking AP literature, which
was one of the hardest classesin the school, from this beloved
(27:09):
, renowned literature teacher,Ms Atsuka, and I remember her
finding he adored her and Iremember her finding me on open
house night and saying you know,of all my years teaching, so
she's teaching all these likecollege prep, ivy League school,
(27:29):
kind of you know bound students, and she said he is the best
student I've ever had, by farthe most curious, insightful, et
cetera, et cetera.
My son got a C in her class andwhat I saw was like a teacher
who could separate out oh,here's the mechanics of his
(27:52):
performance like he didn't turnit in and she didn't give her
favorite student an A, but shecould see like this was someone
who just was thoughtful andloved learning and was curious
and was there for the rightreasons not to get an A and move
on.
And like a teacher who can seethat promise in a student who's
(28:12):
not necessarily ticking all theboxes Incredible.
And finally, you know my, ourlast, who is now in college as a
computer science major.
Just I remember like therelationship he had with his
computer science teacher andjust the way she made learning
about computers exciting and shewas also a mom and she said I
(28:36):
get it, I have kids goingthrough the same schools.
Like I know what you're upagainst.
If you ever find yourselfstruggling, come see me.
Absolutely.
It's all about relationships,vision and affirmation, isn't it
, Liz, where you'll work on themultiplier moments, on
highlighting how recognizing andamplifying strengths can lead
(28:58):
to remarkable growth and success.
When someone sees potential inyou, and you might even see it
in yourself, that fosters asense of confidence as well as
ambition.
And and these stories, it'sevident the way in which
teachers engage with theirstudents, offering positive
affirmations, is setting a highexpectation that students are
(29:18):
eager to meet.
So, from an educationalperspective, these multiply
moments are pivotal.
They constantly emerge in theclassroom and this approach
resonated exceptionally wellwith the educational landscape,
particularly in our context.
(30:07):
Perhaps unintentionally, actions or behaviors have
stifled potential?
Without delving into particularwar stories, can you share some
examples of how accidentaldiminishing, or yourself as a
parent?
It was one of our kids I'll leteveryone guess who that was who
kind of got himself in troublefor, like you know, roughing it
up with some of the other boys,and you know he wasn't picking
fights but he just wasn'tfollowing all of the politically
correct rules.
You know he's a freshman inhigh school and I remember you
know the educator saying well,he can't say that, he can't do
(30:28):
that, he can't treat that personthis way because like that's
got hints of bullying and wejust can't tolerate that.
And I remember thinking, youknow what, we might be being a
little short-sighted, we mightbe overly protecting our
students in the name of safetyand anti-bullying, all of which
(30:48):
are important, but like kids gotto work that out themselves.
And you know, maybe it would bebetter to let him learn from
the consequences of his actionsrather than, you know, getting a
hand slap from the school.
And you know, as we learn moreand more about the consequences
(31:10):
and I think the AnxiousGeneration and the book by
Jonathan Haidt, you know, reallyemphasize that there are
certain things in adolescencethat kids have to learn kid to
kid, that I think.
Sometimes I've seenadministrators hover too much to
protect a student body that itactually suppresses learning.
(31:30):
So I've seen that.
Liz, Mistakes are essentialfor growth and development.
A hover approach or a hoverover approach might provide a
temporary fix, but it doesn'tlead to a long-term or long-term
solutions.
Instead, we need to focus onfostering independence, and
(31:51):
resilience came through inHaight's work.
Now, moving into the concept ofintelligence, we flip to that.
You've explored thisextensively in your research,
particularly with the Multipliesframework.
From an educational leadershipperspective, how do you see
intelligence fitting into thisframework?
You've unpacked this conceptvery cleverly in your work.
(32:17):
Could you expand on how youperceive intelligence in the
context of educationalleadership and how it aligns
with the Multiplies approach?
Yeah, well, when I began the research, I started with a
pretty clear definition ofintelligence.
And you know it's this, ofcourse, this ability to think
and reason and solve hardproblems.
(32:38):
But it's also adaptive innature.
It's not just the ability tofind an answer, it's this
ability to adapt and change andlearn as the world around us is
changing.
So it's this verygrowth-oriented view of
intelligence which I think is,you know, very compatible with,
(33:01):
like, carol Dweck's work andCarol and I actually had some
fun, like she was one of thepeople who weighed in early on
some of my research but it'salso this notion that you know
intelligence exists in manyforms and you know it exists in
(33:21):
technicolor rather than blackand white.
And I think that's probably thecommon message of maybe what I
shared in educators who weremultipliers to my children is
they saw my children not as likeunits moving through a system,
but as unique individuals withtheir own strengths, their own
(33:44):
vulnerabilities and like how dowe respect and appreciate
intelligence in all its forms?
Drew (33:52):
Absolutely, Liz.
Your stories perfectlyhighlight the importance of
looking beyond the systems,grades and averages to focus on
the human aspects of education.
It's all about getting the bestout of humanity.
You mentioned the work ofJonathan Haidt, which adds
another layer to our discussionon the evolution of schooling
and education we're workingthrough.
(34:13):
It's a fascinating area toexplore.
Now I'd like to talk about thevalues of our association.
You might know that the FranklinCovey aligns with the New South
Wales Primary PrincipalsAssociation.
The multiplier framework hasbeen incredibly successful with
us to date, reflecting on ourcore values of support, empower,
(34:36):
advocate and lead.
We also integrate otherleadership frameworks from
Franklin Covey, such as theSeven Habits of Highly Effective
People and the Speed of Trust.
These frameworks havesignificantly contributed to our
approach and successes ineducational leadership in New
South Wales.
Now I'm going to read this toyou.
(34:56):
This is actually an extractionfrom a website from the late
Stephen Covey In 2010,.
Stephen Covey considered theimpact of multipliers could have
in the world and he musedimpact of multipliers could have
in the world and he mused justimagine what would happen in our
world if every leader on theplanet took one step from
diminisher to multiplier,serendipitously through the very
(35:21):
company that Dr Coveyco-founded.
Millions of leaders will takeup this step within the next
decade.
Imagine that, and Liz, that isfrom, obviously, the Wiseman
Group.
Liz, our audience would love tohear more about any real world
success stories with multipliersthat you could share.
Any instances of multipliers inaction, whether in education or
(35:45):
leadership or another context,would be fascinating.
Are there any multipliermoments or stories that stand
out?
Is there any multiplier momentsor stories from an educational
perspective or leadershipperspective you could say has
come through, that you couldshare?
Liz (36:07):
Well, boy, it's been a great privilege to watch
organizations play with theseideas, adopt them, embed them
deeply in their thinking andhave's happening with
educational systems around theworld, and it's thrilling to
(36:32):
watch.
Maybe two that come to mind.
One is a medical school thattook the ideas and said you know
what we need to not only bemultipliers ourselves, we need
to raise physician leaders whoare going to be multipliers not
know it alls and so we're goingto completely rebuild our
(36:54):
medical education curriculum toraise multipliers, and that's
what we're producing.
We're producing physicians whoare multiplier leaders, and to
see the dean of that medicalschool so deeply embraced the
concepts and reinvent thatmedical education process was
really interesting.
(37:15):
Another that I learned aboutjust recently was the work of
Amy Ruzicka, who is thesuperintendent at the Bayless
School District in St Louis,missouri.
Now, this is an inner cityschool district that has all the
challenges of a very diversepopulation macro, economic
(37:38):
challenge, demographic challenge.
She took over as asuperintendent in February of
2022.
And she had read Multipliers orthe Multiplier Effect one of
those two books and she wantedto share it with her team and I
think she decided it was goingto be one of the foundations for
her leadership in this schooldistrict and she started by
(38:02):
doing a book study not a bigcurriculum, a book study across
her entire leadership team.
And she did something verysimple but very powerful.
She asked all of her teammembers to focus on one
multiplier experiment based ontheir accidental diminisher
tendencies.
Just one like, just focus onone things.
(38:24):
And then she incorporated thatinto each one of their
professional development plansyou know their own individual
plans and then she just stayedat it.
And it's one of the things wesee with leaders who really
transform their organizations.
It's not that they do somethingamazing hand-weighting or
(38:44):
something expensive, they juststay at it.
And she supported this withcheck-ins.
She's letting people know likeI'm really serious about this.
She made some personnel changeswhere it became clear certain
school leaders principals werereally not going to be able to
lead this way.
(39:05):
She said, well, we're going tohave to, you're going to have to
lead somewhere else.
That's not the kind ofleadership our community and our
students and our teachersdeserve.
They spent about 18 months ofjust a year and a half in her
words like fully walking out themultiplier's work.
She shared with me how theirschool climate has changed.
(39:29):
I pulled together a few of these.
Supportive relationships up sixpoints.
School climate up 13 points ontheir school climate survey.
School leadership up 25 points.
You know, on the 10-point scale, the school district achieved
top growths for math and Englishlanguage learners.
(39:53):
They became listed in the topworkplaces in 2013 and received
the National School District ofCharacter Award in 2013.
2013, she was namedSuperintendent of the Year, you
(40:18):
know, in Greater St Louis, andall at a very short period of
time and again, it wasn't magic.
It was just this calm but veryclear persistence of this is the
kind of leadership our studentsdeserve, our teachers deserve,
and this is the way we're goingto lead here, and if you don't
want to lead that way, I inviteyou to lead somewhere else.
(40:42):
But this is how we roll hereand she stayed on it with good
educational follow-up.
Drew (40:49):
Yeah, Liz, what a great story and the power of that is
you're showing the work and howyou started with the medical and
how fascinating that is for youto watch your work being
incorporated into medicine andthe impact that it has.
And then we move into educationand seeing the impact that that
(41:11):
has.
You must sit back and go wow,that's exciting to watch unpack
and unfold and do you seeyourself pinching yourself and
you go.
That is part of what I've donefrom a distance.
Liz (41:25):
It's absolutely thrilling to watch and you know.
To come back maybe where westarted our conversation, drew,
is you know, I don't think I hadthat vision.
When I started I had a I had abee in my bonnet, as we say,
like I had a bug about.
Okay, this diminishingleadership is bothering me.
I've done the research, I'velearned some things and I need
(41:47):
to like write it up and get itout there.
I just I didn't realize theimpact that would have and how
the idea would in some wayschange the way we think about
what normal leadership and whatgood leadership looks like today
.
But it was.
It took a multiplier like aCarrie Patterson who say, hey,
(42:08):
you know what, this is a bigidea and you go, do your best
work on this and don't you getlazy.
Absolutely, liz.
Your point undefinedexpectations is crucial.
The story you mentioned aboutthe superintendent is a perfect
(42:32):
example.
They frame the situation byrecognizing that sometimes there
isn't an alignment of values.
They communicated that, whilesomeone could still be a leader,
it might not be the currentcontext if their values don't
align.
And then the superintendentmoved this individual to another
area, ensuring that they hadthe right people around them to
support that vision.
(42:55):
And you know what really struck me about that.
I am, as background, thedaughter of an educator and an
educational leader, so my momwas a principal of a school
district.
I know a little bit about justall of the constraints school
leaders and superintendentsoperate and, like all the
(43:15):
pressures from the community.
And you know, as I'm talking toAmy, I'm like, but wasn't it
hard to make personnel changes,Weren't your hands tied?
Like you can't just go aroundmoving people because you want
to Like there's laws and allthis.
And when it became clear isthat the community was so behind
(43:36):
her because they're seeing howthis affects their children and
their schools and theircommunities and it's like they
were bought into what she wasdoing for the school.
And so you're like, okay, ifyou've got to, like you know,
break some eggs to make anomelet, we're with you.
Drew (43:56):
Yeah, it goes back to the purpose here.
The purpose is to multiply thepotential of our students, staff
and leaders and by focusing onintelligence, we aim to maximize
the capability of everyone'sinvolvement and this approach
has had a significant flow andeffect, enhancing the entire
educational ecosystem in yourexample.
(44:17):
We're in the early phases ofthis work, but it is incredibly
exciting for us as anassociation to witness and
support this growth.
Now I wanted to segue more intothe next topic of coaching.
It's another crucial areawithin the framework of
multipliers.
Currently, we offer a one-daydelivery of multipliers but, as
(44:39):
you mentioned with the exampleof the superintendent, that was
an 18-month process to trulydemonstrate the impact For our
listeners who want to divedeeper into multipliers.
Liz, where do you see coachingfitting in?
Would you recommendincorporating coaching after
completing the multiplierscourse?
How would you guide individualswho have already gone through
(45:01):
the multipliers training interms of continuing their
development through?
Would you incorporate coaching?
Liz (45:09):
you know absolutely, and it's almost like you can't
really implement multiplierleadership without a good
coaching toolkit and I wouldn'tadvise someone try to do that
without having coaching skills.
And we go back to that baylessschool district in um, missouri
in the united states.
I think it was one of thethings, if I'm remembering right
(45:32):
, that these personnel decisionspivoted on that.
Some leaders were just notwilling to play that coach role,
to build that coaching set.
They wanted to call the shots,they wanted to be sort of in
charge, and it was probably thatmight've been the fundamental
shift they were not able to make.
(45:53):
And it is very typical.
We see organizations I can thinkof several school districts.
I think one in particular,beaverton Schools up in Oregon,
which Beaverton probably maybenot known to anyone in New South
Wales other than it's theheadquarters of Nike.
And Nike has been a big adopterof the multiplier's ideas, as
(46:17):
have the schools in that area.
But you know I remember it wasa big part of their effort was
coaching skills and we've seenthat in other school districts,
in other organizations is notlong after leaders are exposed
to the multiplier ideas and atthe core of that is this ability
(46:37):
to shift out of the mode ofproviding answers as a leader
and and asking questions thatget other people thinking, and
to do that well, you end upbuilding a coaching habit, and
so there's a lot of greatcoaching programs.
The Coaching Habit happens to beone of those as well.
(47:00):
Fellow Australian, michaelBungay-Stanier.
His work on Coaching Habit isone that I know of as well, as
Franklin Covey had a toolkitsfor this.
But if there's a skill to godeep on, it's how to ask good
questions and help people figurethings out on their own.
Drew (47:26):
Absolutely, liz, and your work clearly highlights this for
our listeners.
It's important to understandthat multiplies is not just a
one-day course.
Our goal is to interrogate thisinto a long-term systemic
change focusing on alteringpatterns of behavior and
thinking.
Information and the examplesyou've shared reaffirm that
(47:48):
coaching is essential to ensurethis change occurs over time.
So what I'm hearing is withoutcoaching, there's a risk of the
one day course being just a goodfeel-good session.
While some will succeedimmediately, others will need to
continuously support to have along-term impact.
(48:08):
A coaching model is crucial tounderpin this work, helping to
reinforce and embed the changesneeded to truly become effective
multipliers.
Liz (48:21):
Yeah, and I think, drew, it's not just the soft side of
coaching which is like let meserve as a coach and help talk
them through it.
It's the full range of coachingwhich is like, oh, let me kind
of serve as a coach and helpkind of talk them through it.
It's the full range of coach,which is the coach who has a
really high aspiration, likehere's what it takes to win and
here's what winning looks like,and you know, here's what human
(48:45):
performance looks like.
And here are the principles,like you don't get the results
without putting in the effort.
And the reps, like it's thatpart of coaching as well, not
just the let me be a neutral,non-evaluating like facilitator
of their thought process yeah,there needs to be a sense of
(49:06):
accountability.
Drew (49:07):
Without it, as you mentioned Liz, everything can
become superficial, what wemight call fluffy here in
Australia.
There's no substance or followthrough, then the impact is
minimal.
Liz (49:20):
That's like a hiking buddy.
That's not a coach.
Drew (49:24):
Absolutely, liz, and having a coach keeps you
accountable and ensures a realfollow through.
It must have been challengingfor that superintendent to make
those tough calls, but afterseveral discussions they made
the necessary decision andyou're spot on about the human
resource perspective.
Navigating the legal aspects ofthese decisions is complex, but
(49:47):
the impact, when aligned with amultipliers framework, is
substantial.
So let's move forward.
We've had a great discussiontoday covering various aspects
of your work, including themultipliers moments and those of
your kids.
For those listeners, do youhave any final thoughts or
advice for our listeners who arethinking about implementing
(50:10):
multipliers in their schools?
Any guidance for those lookingto make lasting impact?
Liz (50:21):
Well, I think there are two reasons to be a multiplier
leader, and both kind of can getyou there, but in one way to
look at it is you want to leadthis way because you get more
from people, and I think thatwas what was so shocking to me
in the research is howdiminishing leaders were getting
(50:42):
less than half of people'savailable intelligence, whereas
multipliers were gettingvirtually all of of it.
It's a 2x effect broadly, butwhen we go into our school
districts it starts to look morelike a 3x difference.
And and there is a compellingreason to lead this way, which
is, you know, my shortunderstanding like, or my
(51:05):
summary of my understanding ofthe challenges in education is
like education has all thechallenges that businesses and
for profit having they just havethem.
I think, in in like sharperways.
In sharper ways, I think theproblems are a little bit more
acute and harder.
So, like, educational leadersneed to be able to do more by
(51:26):
getting more from people.
That's one reason.
But I'm always reminded and whenI think of myself as a leader
and like why I want to lead thisway, some of it comes to gee.
I want to get the most frompeople because we got hard
problems to solve and I needthis.
But I remind myself that thereal reason to lead this way is
(51:48):
about legacy, and not just howmuch you get from people, but
what kind of work experience doyou offer and what's the impact
on the people you lead?
And how do you really want tobe remembered as a leader?
And when I boil it down to you,know what I've learned from 35
years of leading and my ownresearch is, you know, I want to
(52:12):
be remembered as a leader.
People grow around and maybethat's it, and it's about
getting more, but it's alsoabout giving to people an
experience that feels lessexhausting and more exhilarating
.
Feels less exhausting and moreexhilarating.
Drew (52:30):
Well, Liz, your work is truly making a significant
impact in the educationallandscape, both globally and
here in Australia, New SouthWales.
I want to thank you for yourresearch and dedication to
empowering everyone to become amultiplier leader.
It's been fantastic having youwith us here today and thank you
again, once again, for yourtime and insights.
Liz (52:54):
Well, it's my pleasure and I want to thank everyone who's
read the book or gone throughthe course or just entertained
the ideas and had a go with them.
I hope it really makes adifference for people friends
(53:16):
for people To our listeners.
Drew (53:17):
if you've been inspired to become a multiplier from our
conversation today, we inviteyou to enroll in our multiplies
course.
Principals, executive networksinterested in learning more can
reach out to us directly.
We heard about the remarkableimpact that multiplies is having
with even superintendentsacross the globe, as well as
educational leaders globally,and we're excited to bring that
(53:37):
to New South Wales.
Further details visit ourwebsite at newsouthwalesppaorgau
.
Forward slash multiplies.
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