March 19, 2025 • 52 mins
Discover the incredible journey of Michael Burgess, the newly elected President of the New South Wales Primary Principals Association, as he shares his unique path from a childhood rooted in curiosity and learning to becoming a leading figure in education. Michael opens up about the pivotal influences that shaped his career, from early technological exposure to the powerful encouragement of mentors who saw his potential. Listen as he reveals how these experiences solidified his belief in the essential role of relationships in leadership and the profound impact principals have compared to classroom teachers.
As we move through the episode, we delve into the evolving landscape of educational leadership, highlighting the significant responsibilities principals bear in shaping young minds and future citizens. Michael discusses the indispensable role of the Primary Principals Council in supporting the professional growth of school leaders and emphasizes the resilience needed to manage the complexities of policy implementation. The conversation also touches on pressing challenges such as adapting to diverse educational contexts and the upcoming changes in salaries, working conditions, and new syllabuses.
In the final segment, we focus on the importance of self-care and advocacy for principals, accentuating the need for reconnecting with the core motivations that led them to education. Michael speaks candidly about the mental health challenges facing students, the ethical implications of AI in classrooms, and the ongoing struggle for fair funding in public schools. Through collaboration and strategic discussions, the power of collective experience among principals is harnessed to foster positive change, ensuring that education policies are both equitable and effective. Join us for this compelling episode that not only celebrates the leadership journey of Michael Burgess but also champions the relentless pursuit of excellence in public education.
Links and References:
To view our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning
To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Drew Janetzki (00:10):
Welcome to Season 3 of Professional Learnings,
the New South Wales PPAEducational Leadership Podcast.
I'm Drew Janicki, back as yourhost for a brand new season.
It's great for you to be withus as we continue this journey
of learning, leading and drawinginspiration from the incredible
insights of our amazing guests.
(00:30):
Let's dive into our latestepisode.
Michael Burgess (00:35):
One of our consistently in our surveys not
only our surveys but othersurveys support of colleague
principals is always reallyhighly rated.
So that's an absolute strengthof our association is that we
bring principals together toconnect principals to principals
(00:56):
, for that support and forsharing the knowledge and
leadership and that sort ofthing.
Drew Janetzki (01:03):
Well, it's great to have your company.
In this episode we hear fromour newly elected New South
Wales Primary PrincipalsAssociation President, michael
Burgess Hear about hiseducational background, his
leadership story as well as hisoptimism for 2025.
People listening.
If, for example, I had aquestion here, if you could give
(01:25):
one piece of advice to aprincipal who was just starting
their leadership journey, whatwould it be?
Michael Burgess (01:33):
well, congratulations, you've just
joined.
The best job in the world isthe first comment I would make.
Um, the advice would be lookafter yourself as the number one
priority.
The second piece would berelationships.
Everything you do is aroundrelationships.
(01:54):
So you know, in your firstperiod I know there's going to
be a lot of pressure to be doingthe admin work and your budget
and those which are important.
You need to do those, butyou've really got to be spending
your time in relationships.
Get out, get to know your staff, get to know your parents, get
to know your students, get toknow your community.
(02:16):
Build those relationships.
Spend lots and lots of timebuilding those relationships.
Drew Janetzki (02:23):
Welcome, Michael.
Michael Burgess (02:25):
Thank you, great to be with you.
Drew Janetzki (02:27):
Fantastic, great for you to be with us as we
commence an exciting 2025.
Michael, can you start bytaking us back to the beginning
of your journey?
What first sparked your passionfor education and how did that
evolve?
Michael Burgess (02:45):
Well, I suppose I was privileged to grow up in
a family that was, you know,valued curiosity, valued
learning.
As I grew up my mum was ateacher and my dad was a farmer.
And growing up in the countrythat's what you did.
(03:06):
You did things, you learntthings, you got out and other
bits to do with computing.
And then one of my lecturers inmy final year brought the first
Apple Mac into one of ourlectures or shoots I can't
remember exactly what it was andyou know, taught, showed us
(03:30):
what it could do and you knowthat sparked another bit.
I went on and did someprogramming, wrote some programs
, computer programs formicrobees if any old people out
there remember microbees andthose sorts of things.
So that whole learning and thetechnology were all part of, you
(03:53):
know, my growing up andbuilding to being a teacher and
and being a learner ongoing.
And then when I finished mytraining, it was a time where
there weren't jobs for primaryteachers.
So I went and taught highschool and I was fortunate
(04:13):
enough to go to a place,gundagai High School and the
principal there, alan Dundas,was a great principal school and
the principal there, alanDundas, was a great principal
and he saw that traditionallearning wasn't working for the
kids at the high school and sohe had these themed programs
(04:36):
going in the high school and asa primary teacher it was really
good because I fitted into thatreally well.
But it showed me that, you know, traditional learning doesn't
have to be what we used to see,you know, the teacher out the
front providing information tostudents, trying to feel the
(05:01):
students heads with information.
It was, you know, a really moreexperiential experience again
for that.
So that was another period thatreally sparked, you know,
probably my future direction insome ways.
Then I was out in one teacherschool, bought a couple of Apple
(05:24):
computers there and did that.
But the next part that I supposebuilt my leadership was when I
went to Avalon in Sydney andFrank Farrell, who was a
previous president of the NewSouth Wales PPA there I set up
(05:47):
computer labs and built apartnership with Apple, and
Frank Farrell, great forwardthinking like I, went to him
with this proposal and went thisis what I want to do, this is
what it's going to look like,partnership with Apple, and he
went, yep, go for it, it.
And so we set up a couplecomputer labs, uh, with apple,
(06:08):
uh, in partnership with appleand they use the labs for
testing software and for I cameand do promotional shoots and
things like that, and.
But you know we had all thetechnology and all the software
and that, as I went on, though,technology was a key in building
(06:30):
my leadership, even though Iprobably didn't recognise it at
the time, because, you know, Iwas asked to go and talk to
groups, provide professionallearning for people.
So it built not only my skilland knowledge around leadership,
but it built a reputation, andso when I got to a point where I
wanted to look at leadership,you know I probably was
(07:15):
struggling.
I didn't know whether I reallywanted to be a principal.
Because I looked at principalsand I went do I really want to
do that job and have thatresponsibility?
Uh, and once again, it was oneof the great principals I've had
the privilege of working with.
Diana Hanks said to me well, ina classroom, you're influencing
30 kids.
As an AP, you're influencing 90.
As a principal, you'reinfluencing, you're making a
(07:39):
difference for 500 plus kids,and that sparked something in me
and sort of set me on myjourney towards being a
principal.
From that point, the otherthing that really helped me in
terms of my journey to being aprincipal was Bill Lowe, who was
(08:01):
the regional director at thetime on the Central Coast.
I'd been out, I'd gone out ofschools as a consultant and I
thought I was pretty good.
And I went to Bill as mycontract was finishing and said,
oh, I'd really like to go backas a principal into a school.
And he went no.
Drew Janetzki (08:23):
He went no.
Michael Burgess (08:24):
Yes, he said, look, you've got plenty
potential, but what you need todo is to go back as a dp in a
really tough school.
So that's what I did I wentback to as a dp, dealing with
(08:48):
really difficult, complex,traumatic sorts of things.
But when I did become aprincipal, it was great because
I'd already dealt with all thathard stuff.
And so as a principal, yeah, um, you know, I knew all the
systems, I knew how thingsworked, I knew how to get
(09:08):
support, I knew how to tonavigate everything.
So it made it easier toconcentrate on leading and
leading education and um, so Iwas pretty fortunate.
I've had some really greatmentors and principals in my
time, yeah, yeah, fascinating interms of the background.
Drew Janetzki (09:29):
What I heard was a lot of curiosity, michael, in
terms of what drove you was thatcuriosity going back to that
spark, as you said, in year five, and then also hearing year six
and seeing the complete, almostthe opposite experience, and as
you went through your schoolingyou felt that I heard that
(09:53):
curiosity again came through inyear 12.
So you're coming across interms of curiosity is what
drives you, I'm sure that's partof you know from early age,
growing up in the country.
Michael Burgess (10:08):
As I said, you know you're out in farming
communities, you've got openland, you're off exploring and
doing things and you know.
But you also have to do work andbuild things and yeah you know,
complete tasks and all thatsort of thing, so that there's a
(10:29):
bit of discipline that comes in.
Uh, through that curiosity, um,yeah, so I think curiosity
certainly has been part of my,my journey.
The other thing that I rememberas a relieving principle I used
to go to ppc meetings and Iused to sit there just in awe of
(10:52):
these principles, um, in theroom who just knew so much and,
um, you know, they were so to meand they were so wise in, you
know, their decision-making as abeginning principle, finding my
way, listening to these people,and it was a really interesting
(11:14):
experience that you know.
Over a few years I got to apoint where one day I looked
around the room and I was thatold, wise person.
Everyone else had suddenlybecome, you know, newer
principals than me.
Drew Janetzki (11:30):
So how does that feel?
Michael Burgess (11:37):
Ah, look you know.
Obviously great, but also ahuge responsibility in helping
and guiding other principalsalong the way.
But it also taught me the valueof the PPC, the Primary
Principals Council at a locallevel, because that's where you
(12:01):
saw other principals and howother principals worked and
listened to their stories andhow they led and what they did
and you know all of thatinfluenced me.
Drew Janetzki (12:12):
And here you are now the president of the
association.
How does that feel?
Michael Burgess (12:17):
It's a huge huge privilege, an absolute
privilege, to be leading theprincipals in the state.
You know we have the mostamazing principals leading
public schools in New SouthWales and I don't know that
that's always valued as itshould be.
(12:40):
We're a highly skilled, uh,group of people.
Yeah, um, and yes, we, we teachstudents to read, to write, to
do math, but we're reallyproducing the next group of
citizens for the country, um,and that's a huge privilege and
(13:06):
we've got to not lose sight ofthat that.
What we're growing here arepeople and citizens, and not
just people that are doing atest every couple of years.
We're growing the next group ofpeople who are going to, you
know, lead and run the country,and we're the one in the
privileged position to make adifference for the kids who are
(13:31):
perhaps disadvantaged.
We're the ones.
Politicians can make all thedecisions in the world and set
up programs and set up andprovide money and resources, but
it's the principals and theteachers on the ground who make
the difference in those kids'lives every day, and that's one
of the privileges of being inthis role.
(13:53):
Talking to principals, visitingprincipals and seeing through
the goodness of people's hearts,too, is the other aspect of
that that isn't recognised.
Yes, schools are resourced andfunded to provide an education,
but to make that differencethrough the goodness of people's
hearts, too, is the otheraspect of that that isn't
(14:15):
recognised.
Yes, schools are resourced andfunded to provide an education,
but to make that difference inthat difference being made every
day by the members of ourassociation takes extraordinary
work and extra work.
And you know, I see all thetime and I hear teachers and
(14:39):
principals going out of theirway, giving their own time,
giving their own time, sometimestheir own money, to support a
family, support a student, tomake a difference in that
child's life.
That's going to have along-lasting influence on what
happens, not only for that childbut for our society as well,
(15:00):
absolutely.
Drew Janetzki (15:01):
And well said, michael, in terms of it's a huge
responsibility.
But also, you went back to thewhy.
In terms of why are principalsin that role?
And it is all about, as yousaid, it's all about the
students enabling that curiosityfactor and enabling, as a
(15:24):
society, to utilize education toget the most out of our
students.
So it's a you know it's a hugerisk responsibility and it's
also an important part in theterms of what the New South
Wales Primary PrincipalsAssociation plays we're the ones
on the ground.
Michael Burgess (15:42):
We know what works, and we know what works in
our context, because that's theother aspect of the New South
Wales public education system is.
The contexts are so broad, youknow, from metropolitan to rural
to remote, hospital, schools,environment centres.
There are so many differentcontexts in terms of schools,
(16:03):
and principals on the groundknow what works in their
communities, but they also knowthey look at the research, they
know what works in terms oflearning more generally as well,
and I think that's part of whatour role is as an association
(16:25):
is.
We know what works and we needto be able to influence the
decision making that's going onat a policy level to support us
to do our job and to have theresourcing at our level and the
flexibility in that resourcingto make it work within our
(16:45):
context.
Drew Janetzki (16:45):
And is that where you see your role and where the
PPA is currently positioned at?
Michael Burgess (16:52):
Certainly.
I think that's part of what wedo and where we're going.
We're really good atinfluencing the implementation
of policy and programs.
We really need to have moreinfluence about the
decision-making around policy.
(17:13):
You know, sometimes thesedecisions are made without
understanding the complexity ofwhere we are, the complexity of
the variety of schools we have,the variety of students we have.
So we need that understandingbefore the decision is made, not
(17:38):
after the decision is made.
Yeah, although that's stillgoing to be an important part,
because we want to influenceevery decision, but we'll still
need to influence implementation, but we need to work towards
influencing the decision beforeit's made.
Drew Janetzki (17:52):
Yeah, we talk about big rocks.
What do you see as a big rock,or any big rocks for this year?
Michael Burgess (17:59):
Well, I think the biggest challenge for
principals this year is going tobe the implementation of the
salaries and working conditionsagreement, which has some great
things in that agreement, but itpresents some challenges for
principals, particularly aroundstaffing part-time staffing.
(18:20):
But the one thing I know isprincipals are highly skilled at
taking these policy anddecisions and making it work on
the ground.
So I'm very confident thatwe'll work through it and come
to a way of working with or withall those changes.
But that's going to be achallenge on top of everything
(18:43):
else.
I mean, we've got four newsyllabuses to implement which is
, if that was the only task.
that would be enough, but it'sall the other things on top.
And as an association, we'llcontinue to advocate for
principles, but we'll alsocontinue to share information,
(19:06):
share ideas and assistprincipals in that
implementation.
Drew Janetzki (19:10):
Yeah, so they're two big rocks there alone
syllabus implementation as wellas looking at basically the HR
budget component in your contextIn terms of educational
leadership.
It's such a complex, or itcould be a complex, but it is a
complex and evolving challenge.
(19:30):
What do you think are thebiggest challenges facing
educational leaders today?
Michael Burgess (19:36):
What do you think are the biggest challenges
facing educational leaderstoday?
How long?
Drew Janetzki (19:39):
do you?
Michael Burgess (19:39):
have.
Well, I think I'll start withprincipals' own health and
wellbeing.
Yeah, I think that's one of thebiggest challenges for
principals is the job can beall-consuming.
So helping principals to lookafter themselves, be kind to
(20:04):
themselves, is a reallyimportant part of what we do,
and obviously we have someprograms like Flourish and
things that we have.
But it's also um helpingprincipals understand their
personal um.
Well, I suppose it's empoweringthem to make their personal
decisions, to understand and tolook after themselves and put
(20:28):
some limits in.
And you know that idea ofauditing what you're doing, what
your workload, how many hoursare you spending having that
sense of auditing?
And then, what can you cut outand what can you amplify?
(20:49):
What are the things that areworking for you, what are the
things that are really helpfulto you and what can you amplify
to get um to improve your ownhealth, uh and and well-being?
um, and giving it's not reallygiving permission, that's the
wrong way to put it probably butfor principals to get out of
(21:12):
the office and on, go and sit onthe floor in the classroom and
do the things that light them upin school.
And get back to why you becamea principal in the first place.
What was it?
What was your motivation?
You know we talked about myjourney, but you know what
really motivated you to be ateacher and then a principal?
(21:35):
And how do you reconnect withthat purpose?
How do you get out from all thepaperwork, emails, emails and
get back into the classroom todo the things?
That's probably the biggestchallenge and I remember, you
know, when I first became aprincipal, I spent most of my
(21:56):
time out in classrooms andthat's become more and more
difficult over my time as aprincipal the workload being
stuck in the office isincreasing.
Other challenges, I think mentalhealth of students and families
(22:16):
and staff for that matter.
I think there's increasingmental health issues, which
presents big challenges dealingwith parents that have mental
health issues that we can'tresolve.
(22:37):
It's not in our power toresolve those, but we have to
manage what we have at school.
So you know that's an area ofwork for us as an association
too, to work with the department, how we can improve that and
strengthen that support forprincipals.
You know principals are great,highly skilled workforce, sure
(23:00):
are that can manage all sorts ofthings thrown at them.
But then you'll get somethingreally out of the box, something
way out of crazy things thathappen.
And another thing I knew crazythings happened in school but
since I've taken over aspresident, talking to principals
(23:21):
, some of the things that happenin schools.
If I talked about them peoplewould go you're making that up.
But you know there are crazythings that happen in schools
that are really challenging forprincipals and for staff to
manage.
Drew Janetzki (23:39):
But we do.
And, Michael, do you see theAssociation as a strength of
that?
Michael Burgess (23:45):
Oh, absolutely.
You know, one of ourConsistently in our surveys not
only our surveys but othersurveys support of colleague
principals is always reallyhighly rated.
So that's an absolute strengthof our association is that we
(24:05):
bring principals together toconnect principals to principals
.
Other challenge areasdisability, students with
complex needs.
How we balance that off is areal challenge for us.
Early childhood there'sobviously an increasing emphasis
(24:27):
on early childhood, the numberof preschools going to schools,
so that's a challenge for us howwe work with preschools.
But that whole concept oflinking and building
partnerships and transition withearly childhood providers will
be an ongoing challenge.
(24:48):
Ai artificial intelligence Ican see that being something
that's going to be reallychallenging for us.
Um, lots of benefits I thinkthere'll be lots of benefits in
terms of our work, our workload,how we go about creating um
(25:08):
information and documents andyeah resources and all those
sorts of things.
Uh, there are great benefits,but they're going to be real
challenges around who belongs tothat creation?
You know who?
Drew Janetzki (25:23):
who created that goes back to that, as you said,
that curiosity at the start, butalso that other thinking, is
that critical thinking in termsof evaluating that, that piece
that is so vitally important,which comes with maturity, or
comes part of that curiosity,critical thinking nature.
Michael Burgess (25:44):
Absolutely, and I have some really good ideas
about where we're going withthis and I know that we're going
to work with the departmentthis year on what sort of
supports, how can we use it,what are the ways we can really
(26:06):
leverage AI and also, how do wemanage the challenges and there
are ethical challenges.
There's a number of thingsthere that we'll have to work
with.
So, once again, it's abalancing of the benefit.
Ongoing challenge for us in newsouth wales um, rural remote
yeah, there's a you know newstrategy for rural remote so
(26:30):
it'll be great to watch that beimplemented and grow.
Um, what we're doing for ourAboriginal families and students
Equity, disability again, youknow, refugees huge, low
socioeconomic what are we doingfor all of these students?
And you know, as I said before,there are great things
(26:51):
happening.
I know there are great thingshappening in schools to mitigate
disadvantage and to lift thosestudents and their families, but
it's still an ongoing challengefor us and it's something we
need to continue to work withand it's part of the plan for
New South Wales public educationequity.
(27:12):
So that's great and we'llcontinue to work on that.
I mean, I could get keep going,oh there is.
Drew Janetzki (27:18):
I was going to say there are so many, so many,
as you said, so many rocks thereand and you went through and
all of those are really, reallybig rocks.
Are you optimistic about 2025?
Michael Burgess (27:34):
Absolutely.
I'm an optimistic person anyway, but I think the one thing I
know about New South Walespublic school principals is that
we'll navigate any challenge,Anything that's thrown at us.
We can find a way to make itwork in schools.
Drew Janetzki (27:56):
And if they're not finding a way in schools,
where does the PPA fit in here?
Michael Burgess (28:01):
Our strength is our 43 primary principals'
councils across the state andthat's the first place that
principals engage with theassociation.
I think a bit of a theme ofwhat I'm talking about today is
around influence, and those PPCsare empowered to have influence
at their local level.
So they need to be talking toeach other, firstly, but also
(28:27):
talking to department people,the directors, any other
Department of Education peoplethat they come across their
local Teachers Federationmeetings, the Department of
Education people that they comeacross their local Teachers
Federation meetings.
You know they can haveinfluence there.
So as an association on theground we're in every community
across the state and so we canhave influence in all those
(28:48):
communities through theassociation.
And then the other aspectobviously is the local PPCs'
feedback to the state bodies.
You know every principal has avoice through to their PPC, to
the state bodies, to theminister, to the secretary in
the senior department officers.
(29:08):
One of the key pieces of workwe're going to be doing on this
in term one is around ourstrategic plan as an association
.
To be doing on this in term oneis around our strategic plan as
an association.
Our current plan is coming toan end, so we need to revisit
that and look at you know whatare our steps forward for the
next couple of years.
So that'll be a key part of ourwork going forward and we'll be
(29:29):
seeking those voices.
We've got the presidents anddelegates coming into term one
state council and they'll bringthe voices of people to
influence that strategic planand we'll continue the other
supports that we have.
So our professional supportofficers are working to support
(29:50):
principals all the time.
Our partnerships we have aroundthings like flourish will
continue to work with theDepartment education to have
influence there.
Our professional learning suiteis providing support to
principals and then it comesback to once again to the
(30:11):
individual principal, thoughthey have power within
themselves to take action forthemselves, to support
themselves, and whether that'sreaching out to somebody,
whether that's using one of ourprograms, whether that's
attending a meeting and raisingan issue through a meeting, you
(30:33):
know each individual principle,yeah.
Drew Janetzki (30:37):
I really I hear that optimism coming through,
michael, and I hear the wordsyou're saying.
People listening principles allhave a voice and it can make
influence and you do makeinfluence at your local level.
But network and share thatvoice to your colleagues through
your ppc, go through thosechannels and that is the power.
Michael Burgess (31:00):
Really it is that such a power that affects
size across the state of 1800principles in 43 ppcs yeah,
absolutely, and I mentionedbefore when I was a relieving
principal, going to the ppcmeeting and sitting there in awe
of all these principals withhuge amounts of knowledge in
(31:20):
those meetings and havingdiscussion.
But the other thing I saw thatinfluenced me was them taking on
department people.
So when the directors came tothe meetings they would ask the
hard questions.
They would ask the hardquestions.
Um, you know, and as myinvolvement in the ppa grew, I
(31:41):
became involved in some othergroups and I remember kerry
moore, who was a great umprincipal and she led the
finance and admin team for theppa.
I remember being in a meetingwith her one time and she had
this sort of saying she used togo, she used to go.
Now, hang on a minute, and Ithink the department people
(32:03):
would know, okay, and she wouldbe very firm but polite, you
know, respectful and that, butshe would really drill down with
whoever she was talking to with.
She would really drill downwith whoever she was talking to
with.
Yes, but how does that affectat a school level?
Yeah, you know what does thatlook like at a school level?
(32:27):
How would a principal managethat, you know, and ask those,
really ask those questions andnot be afraid to challenge the
director, because I think as abeginning principal, you see the
director and you go, ooh thedirector.
But then over time you realisethat they're your supervisor.
(32:50):
But you can have thatprofessional discussion with
them and challenge and ask thequestions in a respectful way.
Drew Janetzki (32:59):
Or challenge a system as well, isn't it really?
It's challenging those systemsthat affect not just one
principle but have thatcollective you know, and that's
the voice and the experience ofthe principle.
I should say where thatknowledge comes.
What does it look like, whatdoes it sound like, what does it
feel like on the ground as aprincipal and then sharing,
(33:20):
having that ability, through thePPA, to share those concerns in
a safe environment, to be ableto share the concerns without
any sort of ramifications, so tospeak.
Michael Burgess (33:32):
Yeah, and there's times I mean mean some
of the decisions that are madeand some of the policies that
come through, you know, createhuge challenges for us and
sometimes there's a veryemotional response to that and
you know, through your ppcthere's an opportunity to have
that emotional response.
but once we get past theemotional response, we've got to
(33:54):
work out a strategic way toinfluence what happens going
forward.
You know, and there's that oldsaying about being inside the
tent or being outside the tent.
You know we want to be insidethe tent but we want to be able
to be inside the tent and makeenough ruckus so that they know
we're there without gettingkicked out of the tent.
So you know, we've got to askthe hard questions at time.
(34:17):
And you know, part of myleadership journey because this
is what we're talking about Iremember I was invited down to
that ground that's why I gotchosen to go to it and I
remember sitting there and theywere talking about this program,
lmbr, and introducing lmbr andand that sort of thing.
(34:41):
And it was.
It was a consultation, it wascalled, but it wasn't.
They'd already made all thedecisions.
And you know, despite the factthat at that meeting we stood up
and said you know, we don'tthink this is a good idea, this
isn't going to work, blah, blah,blah, that was ignored and went
ahead.
And you know, people know whatthe history of LMBR is.
(35:02):
So that was another moment Ican think of that I went no, I
need to be having more of avoice in what's happening in the
system, because this isn'tright, it's not working, and I
suppose what I've learnt throughmy time prior to being
(35:23):
President you know as President,the first couple of months of
being President One of thethings is around perseverance.
You need to have thatperseverance and the fair
funding agreement is a reallygood example, because I went to
AGPA, which is the AustralianGovernment Primary Principals
(35:45):
Association, as the New SouthWales rep, and when I got there,
obviously fair funding was apriority at a national level.
But what I brought was aroundthe 4% discount, because what
had been introduced was thatstates could discount or they
could include 4% of funding fornon-school-based things.
(36:07):
So in New South Wales, the 4%you know it was the funding for
NESA and for other things.
Other states, though, it waslike their school bus service
was counted, which didn't haveany influence on schools as such
.
So I raised that at AGPA and alot of the people in the room
didn't know about that 4%, whatthat meant yeah.
(36:28):
And then you know, when we metwith Jason Clare and I raised
that and argued around, you knowthat it was unfair to have the
4% in there.
You know that's probably two orthree years ago now and you
know, but the latest fundingagreement that's just been
negotiated has that 4% to removethat 4%, which is a great thing
(36:55):
.
Of course it was a really dodgydeal that was done originally,
but now the new agreement isgoing to remove that 4% over a
few years.
It will take a bit of time toremove it, but you've got to
plant the seed and you've got topersevere and you've got to
revisit and re-argue over time.
(37:16):
And you know it takes time tohave political influence.
It's not just, they're not justgoing to listen to us at the
drop of a hat.
You've got to raise it and makereally good arguments.
Drew Janetzki (37:30):
You talked about New South Wales education.
Where do you, what do you seeon the national landscaping?
You alluded to that fantasticexample where you brought that
to the federal educationminister and persevered through
that.
What do you see trend-wise interms of across Australia?
Michael Burgess (37:56):
Australia.
Being involved at the nationallevel has been really
interesting, because what I seeis that what happens at one
state often gets picked up byanother state and picked up by
another state, and by the timethe third or fourth state picks
it up, the first state's workedout it's not working and so
they're getting rid of it whilstanother state's picking it up.
(38:19):
So we need to have someinfluence, interesting Influence
.
I think, now that we've got thefair funding looks like it'll
get over the line where thefederal government will be in
25% and state government 75% offunding for public schools.
Even though that's going totake a little time, which is a
(38:39):
shame, it should be happeningnow.
I think the next part for us asprimary principals National
Association is parity withsecondary, so I think that will
be.
Our next priority is thatsecondary students are funded at
(39:03):
a much higher level thanprimary students and in reality,
we should be putting the moneyinto primary students, because
if we get it right there, thenit's going to make it easier for
secondary schools.
So that's probably going to bethe next fight, I see, and
obviously there's a federalelection coming soon, so it's a
(39:23):
time where we'll need to beputting some pressure on
politicians at a national level.
Drew Janetzki (39:29):
Yeah, and I can hear in your voice that optimism
and hope.
It also comes with strategy andalso the not being afraid to
speak up because of the moralimperative behind the why behind
that argument is that it'saffecting principals, it's
affecting students at the locallevel Fair funding, which I
(39:54):
won't even talk about the title,but you know the Gonski report
which was commissioned by thegovernment to determine a fair
funding formula for all schools.
Michael Burgess (40:10):
You know it's been 12 years and we still don't
have it.
And the new agreement and NewSouth Wales hasn't signed, so
I'm hoping that we'll get itsooner, but the agreement the
other states have agreed to isto 2034.
So it's another 10 years ofpublic schools being underfunded
(40:30):
, whilst independent,non-government I mean yeah, um,
non-government I mean yeah,non-government schools a lot of
those are being over them but alot of them are being overfunded
.
And so just, I find itunbelievable that, in a country
that believes in fairness, um,that we don't have public
(40:53):
schools funded at 100% and wehaven't for the last 12 years
and it's going to be another 10years, yeah it's going to be an
interesting space and obviouslyNew South Wales hasn't signed
anything, so we're watching withanticipation and I'm sure that,
as the President, you'll beable to keep us informed about
those discussions.
Well, the great thing is we havethe deputy premier.
(41:16):
Our minister is a huge advocatefor public education, so I know
that she's in there fightingfor us to get the best deal in
this in the quickest time thatwe can.
So and that's part of why wehaven't signed yet, but I'm very
confident that will come.
Drew Janetzki (41:37):
Yeah, look, it's been an absolute pleasure
discussing and we've gone inmany different areas, but the
takeaways are hope and optimismand principals have the voice at
the local level to be able toshare through the PPC.
If people listening for example, I had a question here if you
(41:57):
could give one piece of adviceto a principal who is just
starting their leadershipjourney, what would it be?
Michael Burgess (42:06):
Well, congratulations, you've just
joined.
The best job in the world isthe first comment I would make.
The advice would be look afteryourself as the number one
priority.
The second piece would berelationships.
Everything you do is aroundrelationships.
(42:26):
So you know, in your firstperiod I know there's going to
be a lot of pressure to be doingthe admin work and your budget
and those are important.
You need to do those, butyou've really got to be spending
your time in relationships.
Get out, get to know your staff, get to know your parents, get
to know your students, get toknow your community.
(42:48):
Build those relationships.
Spend lots and lots of timebuilding those relationships.
I remember one time I went as arelief I was asked to go and
relieve in a school that had hadsome difficulty and walking in
I'd got an old staff photo andlooked up all the names and you
(43:13):
know matched names, and I walkedin the first staff meeting and
when people were askingquestions I could use their name
in response and they wereflabbergasted because the
previous principal had beenthere a few years and didn't
know some of their names.
So you know, just those littlethings in terms of relationships
(43:36):
are so important.
One of the things I do when I gointo a school a new school is
find the naysayers.
I seek out the people whoaren't happy.
How do you do that?
Well, you, just you, know, you,you know.
(43:57):
You look around, you know in thestaff, the ones that are
sitting up the back of the staffmeeting on their phone and not
engaged and things like thatparents you, you get to know the
parents.
You see them down the car park,at the back of the car park
chatting, and things like that.
So you seek those people outand you talk to them, and you
(44:19):
may not make them happy.
No matter what you do, you maynot make them happy, but you're
going to hear things from themthat are going to make you a
better leader and make betterdecisions.
So, find the naysayers andlisten and talk to them, and I
suppose that's part of the otherpiece of advice is around learn
to listen, and I think that wasone of the things as a leader
(44:41):
learning to stop talking,because, as you're coming
through as a leader, you're sortof the expert and you're
espousing your expertise a lot.
As a principal, though, I thinkone of the lessons I learned
was you've got to talk andlisten more.
Drew Janetzki (44:57):
Yeah, great advice in terms of seeking out
the naysayers, listeningeffectively and not interrupting
that workflow, because, as anexperienced principal, you
probably already have thoughtout a response, but that's not
your place to actually tell themwhat to do, so to speak.
Michael Burgess (45:24):
Well and this is a good advertisement for
things like our coaching PL andthat that we offer it's more
effective to allow them to cometo their solutions rather than
you give them a solution.
And I'll qualify that by sayingthere are times where you've
just got to make a decision andsay this is what's happening.
(45:46):
There's absolutely times likethat, but there are lots of
times where you need to becoaching and developing and
allow them to come to thesolution and become skilled at
asking the questions that helpthem clarify the issue, clarify
possible solutions and then makea plan to solve that problem.
(46:08):
And related to that is youdon't have to have all the
answers and you don't have tohave all the answers on the spot
.
It's okay to say I'm not sureor I'll come back to you with an
answer.
I think that's one of thethings, too, I learned as a
principal is you don't have tohave the answer every single
(46:28):
time.
I think as a beginningprincipal, you feel like you
need to have every answer, butyou can say I'll come back to
you tomorrow or I don't know.
Go and find out, yeah.
Drew Janetzki (46:40):
And I love how you just segued into the
professional learning suite,Michael.
Any thoughts on professionallearning that is provided by our
association, and where can youjust I'd like to hear your
thoughts on our professionallearning suite.
Michael Burgess (47:03):
Oh, I mean, what we aim to do with our
professional learning suite is Ameet a need and then make sure
that when we're meeting thatneed that it's absolute quality.
Pl and you know the art ofleadership has been going for
more than 10 years now 3,000, Ithink it's 3,000 people, yeah
3,000 people been through thatprogram.
(47:25):
You know a program doesn't lastfor 10 years and have that many
people go through it, unlessit's a quality program.
So you know that's one of thethings I'm really proud of, and
you know the work of previouspresidents, robin and phil, and
those in building thatprofessional learning, uh suite
and making sure that it'squality and that's what we've
(47:45):
really emphasized, um, and ifit's not, we get rid of it.
Um, so I think that's the firstpart.
You know the need, the quality,where we go, I'm not sure We'll
see what the emerging needs are, but obviously I talked before
(48:06):
about AI, about disability.
You know there are a number ofchallenges that we might look at
, but whether that's our role,whether that's a departmental
role or whether that's somebodyelse's role, they're all
decisions we need to make aswell.
But I think it's a key part ofour association is building the
(48:28):
capacity of our members, notonly for their wellbeing but
also their leadership.
Drew Janetzki (48:39):
Yeah, absolutely well said.
Look, we've covered a lot ofground there, Michael.
Any other words of advice forour listeners?
Michael Burgess (48:49):
I don't know about advice, but I think I've
got a new state executive, agreat mix of experienced people
and new people.
So you know, over this nextterm or two, as a team, we'll
come together and really buildourselves as a new executive
(49:12):
team and put our stamp on theassociation.
I'm really excited about ournew executive and, as I said
before, we're going to look atour strategic plan and build our
strategic plan.
So that's an exciting piece ofwork.
But I'll go back to what I saidbefore Our strength is in our
(49:32):
members on the ground in PPCs,and so really honouring and
celebrating that work is animportant part of what I want to
do this year and really buildthat influence at that level so
that there's a consistentmessage across the state.
(49:53):
So it's not just us saying it ata state level, it's being said
across the state because thathas influence when the Deputy
Premier, the Minister, is outand about and she's hearing the
same message from differentplaces.
That builds strength in ourinfluence.
So that's something I'm reallykeen to build and strengthen
(50:18):
what we do, supporting people.
In the challenges ahead aroundbudget staffing, you know we
need to look at how we cansupport principals.
We have huge expertise withinthe membership, and so
identifying, building thatexpertise, sharing that
knowledge is a really importantpart of that, and you know.
(50:46):
A final thing is aroundcelebrating what we do.
We're doing amazing things inevery single public school
across New South Wales every dayand we need to celebrate that
and we need to give thanks forthat.
And, as principals, we need tobe kind to ourselves and say I'm
(51:08):
doing a really good job herehugely challenging at times, but
I'm doing a great job and justfinally, thank you to all our
principals for the work thatthey do each and every day.
Drew Janetzki (51:22):
Well said, michael Burgess, president of
New South Wales PrimaryPrincipals Association.
Terrific words of advice.
You can hear that optimism inhis voice.
You have that voice, michaelburgess.
Thank you again.
Thank you, thanks for listeningto our latest episode.
(51:49):
Don't forget to subscribe toreceive our latest podcast
updates.
It helps you stay informed forthe latest updates on the
professional learning throughthe New South Wales PPA
Professional Learning Suite.
I'm Drew Janicki, theProfessional Learning Officer
for the New South Wales PrimaryPrincipals Association or the
New South Wales PPA.
Remember, reach out if yourschool or network requires
(52:13):
support with professionallearning through the New South
Wales PPA Professional LearningSuite.
This includes middle leadersand executives.
So until next time, take careand look after yourself.
Thank you.
Welcome to Season 3 of Professional Learnings,
the New South Wales PPAEducational Leadership Podcast.
I'm Drew Janicki, back as yourhost for a brand new season.
It's great for you to be withus as we continue this journey
of learning, leading and drawinginspiration from the incredible
insights of our amazing guests.
(00:30):
Let's dive into our latestepisode.
Michael Burgess (00:35):
One of our consistently in our surveys not
only our surveys but othersurveys support of colleague
principals is always reallyhighly rated.
So that's an absolute strengthof our association is that we
bring principals together toconnect principals to principals
(00:56):
, for that support and forsharing the knowledge and
leadership and that sort ofthing.
Drew Janetzki (01:03):
Well, it's great to have your company.
In this episode we hear fromour newly elected New South
Wales Primary PrincipalsAssociation President, michael
Burgess Hear about hiseducational background, his
leadership story as well as hisoptimism for 2025.
People listening.
If, for example, I had aquestion here, if you could give
(01:25):
one piece of advice to aprincipal who was just starting
their leadership journey, whatwould it be?
Michael Burgess (01:33):
well, congratulations, you've just
joined.
The best job in the world isthe first comment I would make.
Um, the advice would be lookafter yourself as the number one
priority.
The second piece would berelationships.
Everything you do is aroundrelationships.
(01:54):
So you know, in your firstperiod I know there's going to
be a lot of pressure to be doingthe admin work and your budget
and those which are important.
You need to do those, butyou've really got to be spending
your time in relationships.
Get out, get to know your staff, get to know your parents, get
to know your students, get toknow your community.
(02:16):
Build those relationships.
Spend lots and lots of timebuilding those relationships.
Drew Janetzki (02:23):
Welcome, Michael.
Michael Burgess (02:25):
Thank you, great to be with you.
Drew Janetzki (02:27):
Fantastic, great for you to be with us as we
commence an exciting 2025.
Michael, can you start bytaking us back to the beginning
of your journey?
What first sparked your passionfor education and how did that
evolve?
Michael Burgess (02:45):
Well, I suppose I was privileged to grow up in
a family that was, you know,valued curiosity, valued
learning.
As I grew up my mum was ateacher and my dad was a farmer.
And growing up in the countrythat's what you did.
(03:06):
You did things, you learntthings, you got out and other
bits to do with computing.
And then one of my lecturers inmy final year brought the first
Apple Mac into one of ourlectures or shoots I can't
remember exactly what it was andyou know, taught, showed us
(03:30):
what it could do and you knowthat sparked another bit.
I went on and did someprogramming, wrote some programs
, computer programs formicrobees if any old people out
there remember microbees andthose sorts of things.
So that whole learning and thetechnology were all part of, you
(03:53):
know, my growing up andbuilding to being a teacher and
and being a learner ongoing.
And then when I finished mytraining, it was a time where
there weren't jobs for primaryteachers.
So I went and taught highschool and I was fortunate
(04:13):
enough to go to a place,gundagai High School and the
principal there, alan Dundas,was a great principal school and
the principal there, alanDundas, was a great principal
and he saw that traditionallearning wasn't working for the
kids at the high school and sohe had these themed programs
(04:36):
going in the high school and asa primary teacher it was really
good because I fitted into thatreally well.
But it showed me that, you know, traditional learning doesn't
have to be what we used to see,you know, the teacher out the
front providing information tostudents, trying to feel the
(05:01):
students heads with information.
It was, you know, a really moreexperiential experience again
for that.
So that was another period thatreally sparked, you know,
probably my future direction insome ways.
Then I was out in one teacherschool, bought a couple of Apple
(05:24):
computers there and did that.
But the next part that I supposebuilt my leadership was when I
went to Avalon in Sydney andFrank Farrell, who was a
previous president of the NewSouth Wales PPA there I set up
(05:47):
computer labs and built apartnership with Apple, and
Frank Farrell, great forwardthinking like I, went to him
with this proposal and went thisis what I want to do, this is
what it's going to look like,partnership with Apple, and he
went, yep, go for it, it.
And so we set up a couplecomputer labs, uh, with apple,
(06:08):
uh, in partnership with appleand they use the labs for
testing software and for I cameand do promotional shoots and
things like that, and.
But you know we had all thetechnology and all the software
and that, as I went on, though,technology was a key in building
(06:30):
my leadership, even though Iprobably didn't recognise it at
the time, because, you know, Iwas asked to go and talk to
groups, provide professionallearning for people.
So it built not only my skilland knowledge around leadership,
but it built a reputation, andso when I got to a point where I
wanted to look at leadership,you know I probably was
(07:15):
struggling.
I didn't know whether I reallywanted to be a principal.
Because I looked at principalsand I went do I really want to
do that job and have thatresponsibility?
Uh, and once again, it was oneof the great principals I've had
the privilege of working with.
Diana Hanks said to me well, ina classroom, you're influencing
30 kids.
As an AP, you're influencing 90.
As a principal, you'reinfluencing, you're making a
(07:39):
difference for 500 plus kids,and that sparked something in me
and sort of set me on myjourney towards being a
principal.
From that point, the otherthing that really helped me in
terms of my journey to being aprincipal was Bill Lowe, who was
(08:01):
the regional director at thetime on the Central Coast.
I'd been out, I'd gone out ofschools as a consultant and I
thought I was pretty good.
And I went to Bill as mycontract was finishing and said,
oh, I'd really like to go backas a principal into a school.
And he went no.
Drew Janetzki (08:23):
He went no.
Michael Burgess (08:24):
Yes, he said, look, you've got plenty
potential, but what you need todo is to go back as a dp in a
really tough school.
So that's what I did I wentback to as a dp, dealing with
(08:48):
really difficult, complex,traumatic sorts of things.
But when I did become aprincipal, it was great because
I'd already dealt with all thathard stuff.
And so as a principal, yeah, um, you know, I knew all the
systems, I knew how thingsworked, I knew how to get
(09:08):
support, I knew how to tonavigate everything.
So it made it easier toconcentrate on leading and
leading education and um, so Iwas pretty fortunate.
I've had some really greatmentors and principals in my
time, yeah, yeah, fascinating interms of the background.
Drew Janetzki (09:29):
What I heard was a lot of curiosity, michael, in
terms of what drove you was thatcuriosity going back to that
spark, as you said, in year five, and then also hearing year six
and seeing the complete, almostthe opposite experience, and as
you went through your schoolingyou felt that I heard that
(09:53):
curiosity again came through inyear 12.
So you're coming across interms of curiosity is what
drives you, I'm sure that's partof you know from early age,
growing up in the country.
Michael Burgess (10:08):
As I said, you know you're out in farming
communities, you've got openland, you're off exploring and
doing things and you know.
But you also have to do work andbuild things and yeah you know,
complete tasks and all thatsort of thing, so that there's a
(10:29):
bit of discipline that comes in.
Uh, through that curiosity, um,yeah, so I think curiosity
certainly has been part of my,my journey.
The other thing that I rememberas a relieving principle I used
to go to ppc meetings and Iused to sit there just in awe of
(10:52):
these principles, um, in theroom who just knew so much and,
um, you know, they were so to meand they were so wise in, you
know, their decision-making as abeginning principle, finding my
way, listening to these people,and it was a really interesting
(11:14):
experience that you know.
Over a few years I got to apoint where one day I looked
around the room and I was thatold, wise person.
Everyone else had suddenlybecome, you know, newer
principals than me.
Drew Janetzki (11:30):
So how does that feel?
Michael Burgess (11:37):
Ah, look you know.
Obviously great, but also ahuge responsibility in helping
and guiding other principalsalong the way.
But it also taught me the valueof the PPC, the Primary
Principals Council at a locallevel, because that's where you
(12:01):
saw other principals and howother principals worked and
listened to their stories andhow they led and what they did
and you know all of thatinfluenced me.
Drew Janetzki (12:12):
And here you are now the president of the
association.
How does that feel?
Michael Burgess (12:17):
It's a huge huge privilege, an absolute
privilege, to be leading theprincipals in the state.
You know we have the mostamazing principals leading
public schools in New SouthWales and I don't know that
that's always valued as itshould be.
(12:40):
We're a highly skilled, uh,group of people.
Yeah, um, and yes, we, we teachstudents to read, to write, to
do math, but we're reallyproducing the next group of
citizens for the country, um,and that's a huge privilege and
(13:06):
we've got to not lose sight ofthat that.
What we're growing here arepeople and citizens, and not
just people that are doing atest every couple of years.
We're growing the next group ofpeople who are going to, you
know, lead and run the country,and we're the one in the
privileged position to make adifference for the kids who are
(13:31):
perhaps disadvantaged.
We're the ones.
Politicians can make all thedecisions in the world and set
up programs and set up andprovide money and resources, but
it's the principals and theteachers on the ground who make
the difference in those kids'lives every day, and that's one
of the privileges of being inthis role.
(13:53):
Talking to principals, visitingprincipals and seeing through
the goodness of people's hearts,too, is the other aspect of
that that isn't recognised.
Yes, schools are resourced andfunded to provide an education,
but to make that differencethrough the goodness of people's
hearts, too, is the otheraspect of that that isn't
(14:15):
recognised.
Yes, schools are resourced andfunded to provide an education,
but to make that difference inthat difference being made every
day by the members of ourassociation takes extraordinary
work and extra work.
And you know, I see all thetime and I hear teachers and
(14:39):
principals going out of theirway, giving their own time,
giving their own time, sometimestheir own money, to support a
family, support a student, tomake a difference in that
child's life.
That's going to have along-lasting influence on what
happens, not only for that childbut for our society as well,
(15:00):
absolutely.
Drew Janetzki (15:01):
And well said, michael, in terms of it's a huge
responsibility.
But also, you went back to thewhy.
In terms of why are principalsin that role?
And it is all about, as yousaid, it's all about the
students enabling that curiosityfactor and enabling, as a
(15:24):
society, to utilize education toget the most out of our
students.
So it's a you know it's a hugerisk responsibility and it's
also an important part in theterms of what the New South
Wales Primary PrincipalsAssociation plays we're the ones
on the ground.
Michael Burgess (15:42):
We know what works, and we know what works in
our context, because that's theother aspect of the New South
Wales public education system is.
The contexts are so broad, youknow, from metropolitan to rural
to remote, hospital, schools,environment centres.
There are so many differentcontexts in terms of schools,
(16:03):
and principals on the groundknow what works in their
communities, but they also knowthey look at the research, they
know what works in terms oflearning more generally as well,
and I think that's part of whatour role is as an association
(16:25):
is.
We know what works and we needto be able to influence the
decision making that's going onat a policy level to support us
to do our job and to have theresourcing at our level and the
flexibility in that resourcingto make it work within our
(16:45):
context.
Drew Janetzki (16:45):
And is that where you see your role and where the
PPA is currently positioned at?
Michael Burgess (16:52):
Certainly.
I think that's part of what wedo and where we're going.
We're really good atinfluencing the implementation
of policy and programs.
We really need to have moreinfluence about the
decision-making around policy.
(17:13):
You know, sometimes thesedecisions are made without
understanding the complexity ofwhere we are, the complexity of
the variety of schools we have,the variety of students we have.
So we need that understandingbefore the decision is made, not
(17:38):
after the decision is made.
Yeah, although that's stillgoing to be an important part,
because we want to influenceevery decision, but we'll still
need to influence implementation, but we need to work towards
influencing the decision beforeit's made.
Drew Janetzki (17:52):
Yeah, we talk about big rocks.
What do you see as a big rock,or any big rocks for this year?
Michael Burgess (17:59):
Well, I think the biggest challenge for
principals this year is going tobe the implementation of the
salaries and working conditionsagreement, which has some great
things in that agreement, but itpresents some challenges for
principals, particularly aroundstaffing part-time staffing.
(18:20):
But the one thing I know isprincipals are highly skilled at
taking these policy anddecisions and making it work on
the ground.
So I'm very confident thatwe'll work through it and come
to a way of working with or withall those changes.
But that's going to be achallenge on top of everything
(18:43):
else.
I mean, we've got four newsyllabuses to implement which is
, if that was the only task.
that would be enough, but it'sall the other things on top.
And as an association, we'llcontinue to advocate for
principles, but we'll alsocontinue to share information,
(19:06):
share ideas and assistprincipals in that
implementation.
Drew Janetzki (19:10):
Yeah, so they're two big rocks there alone
syllabus implementation as wellas looking at basically the HR
budget component in your contextIn terms of educational
leadership.
It's such a complex, or itcould be a complex, but it is a
complex and evolving challenge.
(19:30):
What do you think are thebiggest challenges facing
educational leaders today?
Michael Burgess (19:36):
What do you think are the biggest challenges
facing educational leaderstoday?
How long?
Drew Janetzki (19:39):
do you?
Michael Burgess (19:39):
have.
Well, I think I'll start withprincipals' own health and
wellbeing.
Yeah, I think that's one of thebiggest challenges for
principals is the job can beall-consuming.
So helping principals to lookafter themselves, be kind to
(20:04):
themselves, is a reallyimportant part of what we do,
and obviously we have someprograms like Flourish and
things that we have.
But it's also um helpingprincipals understand their
personal um.
Well, I suppose it's empoweringthem to make their personal
decisions, to understand and tolook after themselves and put
(20:28):
some limits in.
And you know that idea ofauditing what you're doing, what
your workload, how many hoursare you spending having that
sense of auditing?
And then, what can you cut outand what can you amplify?
(20:49):
What are the things that areworking for you, what are the
things that are really helpfulto you and what can you amplify
to get um to improve your ownhealth, uh and and well-being?
um, and giving it's not reallygiving permission, that's the
wrong way to put it probably butfor principals to get out of
(21:12):
the office and on, go and sit onthe floor in the classroom and
do the things that light them upin school.
And get back to why you becamea principal in the first place.
What was it?
What was your motivation?
You know we talked about myjourney, but you know what
really motivated you to be ateacher and then a principal?
(21:35):
And how do you reconnect withthat purpose?
How do you get out from all thepaperwork, emails, emails and
get back into the classroom todo the things?
That's probably the biggestchallenge and I remember, you
know, when I first became aprincipal, I spent most of my
(21:56):
time out in classrooms andthat's become more and more
difficult over my time as aprincipal the workload being
stuck in the office isincreasing.
Other challenges, I think mentalhealth of students and families
(22:16):
and staff for that matter.
I think there's increasingmental health issues, which
presents big challenges dealingwith parents that have mental
health issues that we can'tresolve.
(22:37):
It's not in our power toresolve those, but we have to
manage what we have at school.
So you know that's an area ofwork for us as an association
too, to work with the department, how we can improve that and
strengthen that support forprincipals.
You know principals are great,highly skilled workforce, sure
(23:00):
are that can manage all sorts ofthings thrown at them.
But then you'll get somethingreally out of the box, something
way out of crazy things thathappen.
And another thing I knew crazythings happened in school but
since I've taken over aspresident, talking to principals
(23:21):
, some of the things that happenin schools.
If I talked about them peoplewould go you're making that up.
But you know there are crazythings that happen in schools
that are really challenging forprincipals and for staff to
manage.
Drew Janetzki (23:39):
But we do.
And, Michael, do you see theAssociation as a strength of
that?
Michael Burgess (23:45):
Oh, absolutely.
You know, one of ourConsistently in our surveys not
only our surveys but othersurveys support of colleague
principals is always reallyhighly rated.
So that's an absolute strengthof our association is that we
(24:05):
bring principals together toconnect principals to principals
.
Other challenge areasdisability, students with
complex needs.
How we balance that off is areal challenge for us.
Early childhood there'sobviously an increasing emphasis
(24:27):
on early childhood, the numberof preschools going to schools,
so that's a challenge for us howwe work with preschools.
But that whole concept oflinking and building
partnerships and transition withearly childhood providers will
be an ongoing challenge.
(24:48):
Ai artificial intelligence Ican see that being something
that's going to be reallychallenging for us.
Um, lots of benefits I thinkthere'll be lots of benefits in
terms of our work, our workload,how we go about creating um
(25:08):
information and documents andyeah resources and all those
sorts of things.
Uh, there are great benefits,but they're going to be real
challenges around who belongs tothat creation?
You know who?
Drew Janetzki (25:23):
who created that goes back to that, as you said,
that curiosity at the start, butalso that other thinking, is
that critical thinking in termsof evaluating that, that piece
that is so vitally important,which comes with maturity, or
comes part of that curiosity,critical thinking nature.
Michael Burgess (25:44):
Absolutely, and I have some really good ideas
about where we're going withthis and I know that we're going
to work with the departmentthis year on what sort of
supports, how can we use it,what are the ways we can really
(26:06):
leverage AI and also, how do wemanage the challenges and there
are ethical challenges.
There's a number of thingsthere that we'll have to work
with.
So, once again, it's abalancing of the benefit.
Ongoing challenge for us in newsouth wales um, rural remote
yeah, there's a you know newstrategy for rural remote so
(26:30):
it'll be great to watch that beimplemented and grow.
Um, what we're doing for ourAboriginal families and students
Equity, disability again, youknow, refugees huge, low
socioeconomic what are we doingfor all of these students?
And you know, as I said before,there are great things
(26:51):
happening.
I know there are great thingshappening in schools to mitigate
disadvantage and to lift thosestudents and their families, but
it's still an ongoing challengefor us and it's something we
need to continue to work withand it's part of the plan for
New South Wales public educationequity.
(27:12):
So that's great and we'llcontinue to work on that.
I mean, I could get keep going,oh there is.
Drew Janetzki (27:18):
I was going to say there are so many, so many,
as you said, so many rocks thereand and you went through and
all of those are really, reallybig rocks.
Are you optimistic about 2025?
Michael Burgess (27:34):
Absolutely.
I'm an optimistic person anyway, but I think the one thing I
know about New South Walespublic school principals is that
we'll navigate any challenge,Anything that's thrown at us.
We can find a way to make itwork in schools.
Drew Janetzki (27:56):
And if they're not finding a way in schools,
where does the PPA fit in here?
Michael Burgess (28:01):
Our strength is our 43 primary principals'
councils across the state andthat's the first place that
principals engage with theassociation.
I think a bit of a theme ofwhat I'm talking about today is
around influence, and those PPCsare empowered to have influence
at their local level.
So they need to be talking toeach other, firstly, but also
(28:27):
talking to department people,the directors, any other
Department of Education peoplethat they come across their
local Teachers Federationmeetings, the Department of
Education people that they comeacross their local Teachers
Federation meetings.
You know they can haveinfluence there.
So as an association on theground we're in every community
across the state and so we canhave influence in all those
(28:48):
communities through theassociation.
And then the other aspectobviously is the local PPCs'
feedback to the state bodies.
You know every principal has avoice through to their PPC, to
the state bodies, to theminister, to the secretary in
the senior department officers.
(29:08):
One of the key pieces of workwe're going to be doing on this
in term one is around ourstrategic plan as an association
.
To be doing on this in term oneis around our strategic plan as
an association.
Our current plan is coming toan end, so we need to revisit
that and look at you know whatare our steps forward for the
next couple of years.
So that'll be a key part of ourwork going forward and we'll be
(29:29):
seeking those voices.
We've got the presidents anddelegates coming into term one
state council and they'll bringthe voices of people to
influence that strategic planand we'll continue the other
supports that we have.
So our professional supportofficers are working to support
(29:50):
principals all the time.
Our partnerships we have aroundthings like flourish will
continue to work with theDepartment education to have
influence there.
Our professional learning suiteis providing support to
principals and then it comesback to once again to the
(30:11):
individual principal, thoughthey have power within
themselves to take action forthemselves, to support
themselves, and whether that'sreaching out to somebody,
whether that's using one of ourprograms, whether that's
attending a meeting and raisingan issue through a meeting, you
(30:33):
know each individual principle,yeah.
Drew Janetzki (30:37):
I really I hear that optimism coming through,
michael, and I hear the wordsyou're saying.
People listening principles allhave a voice and it can make
influence and you do makeinfluence at your local level.
But network and share thatvoice to your colleagues through
your ppc, go through thosechannels and that is the power.
Michael Burgess (31:00):
Really it is that such a power that affects
size across the state of 1800principles in 43 ppcs yeah,
absolutely, and I mentionedbefore when I was a relieving
principal, going to the ppcmeeting and sitting there in awe
of all these principals withhuge amounts of knowledge in
(31:20):
those meetings and havingdiscussion.
But the other thing I saw thatinfluenced me was them taking on
department people.
So when the directors came tothe meetings they would ask the
hard questions.
They would ask the hardquestions.
Um, you know, and as myinvolvement in the ppa grew, I
(31:41):
became involved in some othergroups and I remember kerry
moore, who was a great umprincipal and she led the
finance and admin team for theppa.
I remember being in a meetingwith her one time and she had
this sort of saying she used togo, she used to go.
Now, hang on a minute, and Ithink the department people
(32:03):
would know, okay, and she wouldbe very firm but polite, you
know, respectful and that, butshe would really drill down with
whoever she was talking to with.
She would really drill downwith whoever she was talking to
with.
Yes, but how does that affectat a school level?
Yeah, you know what does thatlook like at a school level?
(32:27):
How would a principal managethat, you know, and ask those,
really ask those questions andnot be afraid to challenge the
director, because I think as abeginning principal, you see the
director and you go, ooh thedirector.
But then over time you realisethat they're your supervisor.
(32:50):
But you can have thatprofessional discussion with
them and challenge and ask thequestions in a respectful way.
Drew Janetzki (32:59):
Or challenge a system as well, isn't it really?
It's challenging those systemsthat affect not just one
principle but have thatcollective you know, and that's
the voice and the experience ofthe principle.
I should say where thatknowledge comes.
What does it look like, whatdoes it sound like, what does it
feel like on the ground as aprincipal and then sharing,
(33:20):
having that ability, through thePPA, to share those concerns in
a safe environment, to be ableto share the concerns without
any sort of ramifications, so tospeak.
Michael Burgess (33:32):
Yeah, and there's times I mean mean some
of the decisions that are madeand some of the policies that
come through, you know, createhuge challenges for us and
sometimes there's a veryemotional response to that and
you know, through your ppcthere's an opportunity to have
that emotional response.
but once we get past theemotional response, we've got to
(33:54):
work out a strategic way toinfluence what happens going
forward.
You know, and there's that oldsaying about being inside the
tent or being outside the tent.
You know we want to be insidethe tent but we want to be able
to be inside the tent and makeenough ruckus so that they know
we're there without gettingkicked out of the tent.
So you know, we've got to askthe hard questions at time.
(34:17):
And you know, part of myleadership journey because this
is what we're talking about Iremember I was invited down to
that ground that's why I gotchosen to go to it and I
remember sitting there and theywere talking about this program,
lmbr, and introducing lmbr andand that sort of thing.
(34:41):
And it was.
It was a consultation, it wascalled, but it wasn't.
They'd already made all thedecisions.
And you know, despite the factthat at that meeting we stood up
and said you know, we don'tthink this is a good idea, this
isn't going to work, blah, blah,blah, that was ignored and went
ahead.
And you know, people know whatthe history of LMBR is.
(35:02):
So that was another moment Ican think of that I went no, I
need to be having more of avoice in what's happening in the
system, because this isn'tright, it's not working, and I
suppose what I've learnt throughmy time prior to being
(35:23):
President you know as President,the first couple of months of
being President One of thethings is around perseverance.
You need to have thatperseverance and the fair
funding agreement is a reallygood example, because I went to
AGPA, which is the AustralianGovernment Primary Principals
(35:45):
Association, as the New SouthWales rep, and when I got there,
obviously fair funding was apriority at a national level.
But what I brought was aroundthe 4% discount, because what
had been introduced was thatstates could discount or they
could include 4% of funding fornon-school-based things.
(36:07):
So in New South Wales, the 4%you know it was the funding for
NESA and for other things.
Other states, though, it waslike their school bus service
was counted, which didn't haveany influence on schools as such
.
So I raised that at AGPA and alot of the people in the room
didn't know about that 4%, whatthat meant yeah.
(36:28):
And then you know, when we metwith Jason Clare and I raised
that and argued around, you knowthat it was unfair to have the
4% in there.
You know that's probably two orthree years ago now and you
know, but the latest fundingagreement that's just been
negotiated has that 4% to removethat 4%, which is a great thing
(36:55):
.
Of course it was a really dodgydeal that was done originally,
but now the new agreement isgoing to remove that 4% over a
few years.
It will take a bit of time toremove it, but you've got to
plant the seed and you've got topersevere and you've got to
revisit and re-argue over time.
(37:16):
And you know it takes time tohave political influence.
It's not just, they're not justgoing to listen to us at the
drop of a hat.
You've got to raise it and makereally good arguments.
Drew Janetzki (37:30):
You talked about New South Wales education.
Where do you, what do you seeon the national landscaping?
You alluded to that fantasticexample where you brought that
to the federal educationminister and persevered through
that.
What do you see trend-wise interms of across Australia?
Michael Burgess (37:56):
Australia.
Being involved at the nationallevel has been really
interesting, because what I seeis that what happens at one
state often gets picked up byanother state and picked up by
another state, and by the timethe third or fourth state picks
it up, the first state's workedout it's not working and so
they're getting rid of it whilstanother state's picking it up.
(38:19):
So we need to have someinfluence, interesting Influence
.
I think, now that we've got thefair funding looks like it'll
get over the line where thefederal government will be in
25% and state government 75% offunding for public schools.
Even though that's going totake a little time, which is a
(38:39):
shame, it should be happeningnow.
I think the next part for us asprimary principals National
Association is parity withsecondary, so I think that will
be.
Our next priority is thatsecondary students are funded at
(39:03):
a much higher level thanprimary students and in reality,
we should be putting the moneyinto primary students, because
if we get it right there, thenit's going to make it easier for
secondary schools.
So that's probably going to bethe next fight, I see, and
obviously there's a federalelection coming soon, so it's a
(39:23):
time where we'll need to beputting some pressure on
politicians at a national level.
Drew Janetzki (39:29):
Yeah, and I can hear in your voice that optimism
and hope.
It also comes with strategy andalso the not being afraid to
speak up because of the moralimperative behind the why behind
that argument is that it'saffecting principals, it's
affecting students at the locallevel Fair funding, which I
(39:54):
won't even talk about the title,but you know the Gonski report
which was commissioned by thegovernment to determine a fair
funding formula for all schools.
Michael Burgess (40:10):
You know it's been 12 years and we still don't
have it.
And the new agreement and NewSouth Wales hasn't signed, so
I'm hoping that we'll get itsooner, but the agreement the
other states have agreed to isto 2034.
So it's another 10 years ofpublic schools being underfunded
(40:30):
, whilst independent,non-government I mean yeah, um,
non-government I mean yeah,non-government schools a lot of
those are being over them but alot of them are being overfunded
.
And so just, I find itunbelievable that, in a country
that believes in fairness, um,that we don't have public
(40:53):
schools funded at 100% and wehaven't for the last 12 years
and it's going to be another 10years, yeah it's going to be an
interesting space and obviouslyNew South Wales hasn't signed
anything, so we're watching withanticipation and I'm sure that,
as the President, you'll beable to keep us informed about
those discussions.
Well, the great thing is we havethe deputy premier.
(41:16):
Our minister is a huge advocatefor public education, so I know
that she's in there fightingfor us to get the best deal in
this in the quickest time thatwe can.
So and that's part of why wehaven't signed yet, but I'm very
confident that will come.
Drew Janetzki (41:37):
Yeah, look, it's been an absolute pleasure
discussing and we've gone inmany different areas, but the
takeaways are hope and optimismand principals have the voice at
the local level to be able toshare through the PPC.
If people listening for example, I had a question here if you
(41:57):
could give one piece of adviceto a principal who is just
starting their leadershipjourney, what would it be?
Michael Burgess (42:06):
Well, congratulations, you've just
joined.
The best job in the world isthe first comment I would make.
The advice would be look afteryourself as the number one
priority.
The second piece would berelationships.
Everything you do is aroundrelationships.
(42:26):
So you know, in your firstperiod I know there's going to
be a lot of pressure to be doingthe admin work and your budget
and those are important.
You need to do those, butyou've really got to be spending
your time in relationships.
Get out, get to know your staff, get to know your parents, get
to know your students, get toknow your community.
(42:48):
Build those relationships.
Spend lots and lots of timebuilding those relationships.
I remember one time I went as arelief I was asked to go and
relieve in a school that had hadsome difficulty and walking in
I'd got an old staff photo andlooked up all the names and you
(43:13):
know matched names, and I walkedin the first staff meeting and
when people were askingquestions I could use their name
in response and they wereflabbergasted because the
previous principal had beenthere a few years and didn't
know some of their names.
So you know, just those littlethings in terms of relationships
(43:36):
are so important.
One of the things I do when I gointo a school a new school is
find the naysayers.
I seek out the people whoaren't happy.
How do you do that?
Well, you, just you, know, you,you know.
(43:57):
You look around, you know in thestaff, the ones that are
sitting up the back of the staffmeeting on their phone and not
engaged and things like thatparents you, you get to know the
parents.
You see them down the car park,at the back of the car park
chatting, and things like that.
So you seek those people outand you talk to them, and you
(44:19):
may not make them happy.
No matter what you do, you maynot make them happy, but you're
going to hear things from themthat are going to make you a
better leader and make betterdecisions.
So, find the naysayers andlisten and talk to them, and I
suppose that's part of the otherpiece of advice is around learn
to listen, and I think that wasone of the things as a leader
(44:41):
learning to stop talking,because, as you're coming
through as a leader, you're sortof the expert and you're
espousing your expertise a lot.
As a principal, though, I thinkone of the lessons I learned
was you've got to talk andlisten more.
Drew Janetzki (44:57):
Yeah, great advice in terms of seeking out
the naysayers, listeningeffectively and not interrupting
that workflow, because, as anexperienced principal, you
probably already have thoughtout a response, but that's not
your place to actually tell themwhat to do, so to speak.
Michael Burgess (45:24):
Well and this is a good advertisement for
things like our coaching PL andthat that we offer it's more
effective to allow them to cometo their solutions rather than
you give them a solution.
And I'll qualify that by sayingthere are times where you've
just got to make a decision andsay this is what's happening.
(45:46):
There's absolutely times likethat, but there are lots of
times where you need to becoaching and developing and
allow them to come to thesolution and become skilled at
asking the questions that helpthem clarify the issue, clarify
possible solutions and then makea plan to solve that problem.
(46:08):
And related to that is youdon't have to have all the
answers and you don't have tohave all the answers on the spot
.
It's okay to say I'm not sureor I'll come back to you with an
answer.
I think that's one of thethings, too, I learned as a
principal is you don't have tohave the answer every single
(46:28):
time.
I think as a beginningprincipal, you feel like you
need to have every answer, butyou can say I'll come back to
you tomorrow or I don't know.
Go and find out, yeah.
Drew Janetzki (46:40):
And I love how you just segued into the
professional learning suite,Michael.
Any thoughts on professionallearning that is provided by our
association, and where can youjust I'd like to hear your
thoughts on our professionallearning suite.
Michael Burgess (47:03):
Oh, I mean, what we aim to do with our
professional learning suite is Ameet a need and then make sure
that when we're meeting thatneed that it's absolute quality.
Pl and you know the art ofleadership has been going for
more than 10 years now 3,000, Ithink it's 3,000 people, yeah
3,000 people been through thatprogram.
(47:25):
You know a program doesn't lastfor 10 years and have that many
people go through it, unlessit's a quality program.
So you know that's one of thethings I'm really proud of, and
you know the work of previouspresidents, robin and phil, and
those in building thatprofessional learning, uh suite
and making sure that it'squality and that's what we've
(47:45):
really emphasized, um, and ifit's not, we get rid of it.
Um, so I think that's the firstpart.
You know the need, the quality,where we go, I'm not sure We'll
see what the emerging needs are, but obviously I talked before
(48:06):
about AI, about disability.
You know there are a number ofchallenges that we might look at
, but whether that's our role,whether that's a departmental
role or whether that's somebodyelse's role, they're all
decisions we need to make aswell.
But I think it's a key part ofour association is building the
(48:28):
capacity of our members, notonly for their wellbeing but
also their leadership.
Drew Janetzki (48:39):
Yeah, absolutely well said.
Look, we've covered a lot ofground there, Michael.
Any other words of advice forour listeners?
Michael Burgess (48:49):
I don't know about advice, but I think I've
got a new state executive, agreat mix of experienced people
and new people.
So you know, over this nextterm or two, as a team, we'll
come together and really buildourselves as a new executive
(49:12):
team and put our stamp on theassociation.
I'm really excited about ournew executive and, as I said
before, we're going to look atour strategic plan and build our
strategic plan.
So that's an exciting piece ofwork.
But I'll go back to what I saidbefore Our strength is in our
(49:32):
members on the ground in PPCs,and so really honouring and
celebrating that work is animportant part of what I want to
do this year and really buildthat influence at that level so
that there's a consistentmessage across the state.
(49:53):
So it's not just us saying it ata state level, it's being said
across the state because thathas influence when the Deputy
Premier, the Minister, is outand about and she's hearing the
same message from differentplaces.
That builds strength in ourinfluence.
So that's something I'm reallykeen to build and strengthen
(50:18):
what we do, supporting people.
In the challenges ahead aroundbudget staffing, you know we
need to look at how we cansupport principals.
We have huge expertise withinthe membership, and so
identifying, building thatexpertise, sharing that
knowledge is a really importantpart of that, and you know.
(50:46):
A final thing is aroundcelebrating what we do.
We're doing amazing things inevery single public school
across New South Wales every dayand we need to celebrate that
and we need to give thanks forthat.
And, as principals, we need tobe kind to ourselves and say I'm
(51:08):
doing a really good job herehugely challenging at times, but
I'm doing a great job and justfinally, thank you to all our
principals for the work thatthey do each and every day.
Drew Janetzki (51:22):
Well said, michael Burgess, president of
New South Wales PrimaryPrincipals Association.
Terrific words of advice.
You can hear that optimism inhis voice.
You have that voice, michaelburgess.
Thank you again.
Thank you, thanks for listeningto our latest episode.
(51:49):
Don't forget to subscribe toreceive our latest podcast
updates.
It helps you stay informed forthe latest updates on the
professional learning throughthe New South Wales PPA
Professional Learning Suite.
I'm Drew Janicki, theProfessional Learning Officer
for the New South Wales PrimaryPrincipals Association or the
New South Wales PPA.
Remember, reach out if yourschool or network requires
(52:13):
support with professionallearning through the New South
Wales PPA Professional LearningSuite.
This includes middle leadersand executives.
So until next time, take careand look after yourself.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Good Hang with Amy Poehler
Come hang with Amy Poehler. Each week on her podcast, she'll welcome celebrities and fun people to her studio. They'll share stories about their careers, mutual friends, shared enthusiasms, and most importantly, what's been making them laugh. This podcast is not about trying to make you better or giving advice. Amy just wants to have a good time.