Navigating school sports policy doesn't have to be overwhelming. The final episode of our four-part series with the NSW Department of Education School Sports Unit reveals the practical solutions and expert guidance available to school leaders across the state.
Meet Lucette King, a Sport Policy Advisor with an impressive 30-year tenure in the School Sports Unit. Her extensive experience has positioned her as a crucial resource for principals seeking to untangle complex policy requirements while still providing meaningful sporting opportunities for students. King specializes in finding workable solutions in the grey areas between rigid policies and practical implementation, ensuring safety without stifling student experiences.
The episode tackles several critical areas including unstructured swimming guidelines (which King candidly describes as "deliberately cumbersome" to ensure student safety following past tragedies), updated concussion protocols that remove medical judgment burdens from educators, and perhaps most significantly, a revolutionary new permission system for school sports activities.
This streamlined permission approach represents a breakthrough for schools. Working with legal services, the Sports Unit has established that sports delivered by teachers on school grounds or within the local community can now be treated as "business as usual" – dramatically reducing paperwork and administrative burdens. This solution emerged directly from principal feedback, demonstrating how the unit transforms challenges into practical improvements.
Dr. Sylvia Corish, Executive Director of Student Support and Specialist Programs, provides valuable perspective on the broader impact of the School Sports Unit. She highlights how sports serve as a powerful engagement tool, noting that for many students, "sport is the one thing that keeps them there and gets them to school." This understanding drives the unit's commitment to developing inclusive programs that cater to schools of all sizes and contexts.
Both experts emphasize that the Sports Unit thrives on direct engagement with principals. Whether you're leading a remote school with five students or an urban campus with thousands, their team stands ready with solutions tailored to your unique circumstances. Reach out through their website, email, or phone – no question is too small, and your challenges today might inspire system-wide improvements tomorrow.
Link to NSW School Sports Unit:
https://education.nsw.gov.au/teaching-and-learning/curriculum/school-sport
Links and References:
To view our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning
To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Drew (00:00):
Welcome back to Professional Learning's the New
South Wales PPA EducationalLeadership Podcast.
It's great to have your company.
This podcast aligns to thevalues of the New South Wales
Primary Principals Association,that is, the values of principal
wellbeing, principals as leadlearners, as well as supporting
principals to lead schooloperations.
(00:23):
If you enjoy this podcast,don't forget to subscribe for
further updates.
Now let's get into today'slatest episode.
This is the fourth and finalepisode of a four-part series
with the New South WalesDepartment of Education Sports
Unit.
There have been so manyfantastic takeaways from each of
(00:44):
our guests in each episode.
Before we conclude, a hugethanks to Andrew Hooper, who is
our New South Wales PPArepresentative for PWSA Sport,
who was able to coordinate allof our special guests from the
New South Wales School SportsUnit unit.
Now, as I have stated in each ofthese episodes, if you're
(01:05):
listening and thinking, how doesthe school sport unit align
with professional learning?
Well, I strongly encourage youto listen back to our previous
three episodes, where we coveredevidence-based research,
science around the brain,alignment with your school
excellence framework, thewellbeing benefits of sport and
(01:25):
retention, as well as supportingstudents with disabilities,
just to name a few.
Our guests in the final podcastseries are Lissette King and Dr
Sylvia Corish.
Lissette King is a sport policyadvisor attached to the New
South Wales School Sport Unitand is part of the Arts
Initiative for the New SouthWales School Sport Unit and is
part of the arts initiative forthe New South Wales Department
(01:47):
of Education.
Our final guest in this podcastseries is Dr Sylvia Corish,
who'll summarise, synthesise thekey messages and the wisdom
from all of our guests.
Dr Corish shares insights intothe importance of the New South
Wales School Sports Unit.
Let's start now.
Lucette (02:10):
My name's Lucette.
I'm the Sport Policy Advisorattached to the School Sport
Unit as part of Arts, Sports andInitiatives.
Drew (02:17):
Terrific, lucette.
Welcome to our podcast, wherewe're focusing on all things
sport and, as you said in yourtitle, you are the policy
advisor.
Did I get that correct?
You are the sport policyadvisor.
Can you tell our audience whatthat role, what does that role
(02:38):
look and sound and feel like forour people listening?
Lucette (02:42):
Okay, I will give it a try.
So my role is to support ourschool leaders and teachers in
making sure that all of theopportunities that are provided
through weekly school sport aredone safely and in a compliant
way with all of the department'srules and regs and standards,
(03:05):
and then, obviously, the laws aswell.
So my job primarily focuses onthat school leadership support.
But then I'm in the backgroundworking behind in assisting
principals and school leaders todig themselves out of any
difficulties that come up.
Principals and school leadersto dig themselves out of any
(03:26):
difficulties that come up.
In many instances my role issupporting between the black and
white.
So the policy says this aschool principal is perhaps
asking to do something slightlydifferent, and how can we work
together to get that opportunityin place for the students
safely?
Drew (03:42):
Yeah, yeah, really important to unpack that further
.
So what are the themes that arecurrent in your context, that
you're working through?
Lucette (03:53):
The themes come and go.
They're a bit cyclicaldepending on the time of the
year.
Then we start heading intowinter and we'll get concussion
and collision sports coming.
We get a couple of winter sportquestions at that point, where
students are representingstudents are participating in
events called inter-schoolsports, events that have nothing
to do with the department andthen there is a perennial
(04:16):
external providers yeah, so fewthings to navigate there through
in that, in that cycle.
Drew (04:22):
How long have you been in the role for?
Lucette (04:24):
I've been in this role now for six years, but I've been
part of the sports unit forlonger than most people out
there have been teaching.
I've been in the school sportunit for 30 years.
Drew (04:34):
Oh wow, Congratulations.
What a great achievement, andI'm sure you have seen a lot of
changes in that time as well.
Lucette (04:41):
A lot of changes and been privileged to work with
some amazing mentors and yeah,so it's the best place in the
department to work.
I like to tell people Sorry tothose listening.
Drew (04:54):
Well, it sounds great and we're going to go further into
those topics or those themes,like you said, recording this in
Decembercember, nearly the endof the year, two or three weeks
to go before the end of the year.
Busy time in schools, as as weall know.
(05:14):
I'm not saying anything newhere.
However, the uns tell us alittle bit more about some
things that are coming throughfrom your perspective.
Lucette (05:22):
On the unstructured swimming, so when you asked me
what are the common themes, Ikind of did a chunk by chunk
timeline of the things that popup annually.
The biggest piece of work thatwe're doing at the moment is the
release of the new permissionsupport.
So that's a one-off, but I'lldo unstructured swimming first
because that was the questionthat you asked.
(05:44):
It's a one-off, but I'll dounstructured swimming first
because that was the questionthat you asked.
So the department has a set ofguidelines that are in place for
schools that are deliveringfree swimming activities.
Those guidelines are designedto almost make it impossible to
deliver free swimming.
That is not recommended.
You can, you can do it, but itwould be much, much better to
structure an activity.
(06:04):
When we look at the educationaloutcomes of potentially
attending a water theme park,I'm hard pressed to tick a box
to say what outcomes there are.
And all of those activities areunstructured.
Unstructured swimming is anactivity that is not led by a
(06:24):
teacher.
The student's swimming abilityneeds to be tested either before
the activity takes place or onthe day.
So that's an added burden,while the supervision of the
activity must be undertaken.
There's no rhyme or rhythm tohow that activity is being
conducted.
So it was brought in.
(06:46):
The unstructured swimmingguidelines were brought in
following a fatality in the BlueMountains and it was part of a
set of coronial recommendations.
So I work with schools to makesure all swimming activities are
structured.
So we provide novelty events,we talk about ways to make sure
that the activity is being ledin suitable water conditions,
(07:10):
all that sort of stuff.
Drew (07:12):
So what I'm hearing from that is to hasten cautiously is
probably potential advice toprincipals.
Listening with unstructuredgoing to, whether it's a theme
park or water parks,unstructured is that what I'm
hearing?
Lucette (07:31):
yeah, look, it's when we're looking at end of year
celebration days.
I often tell people that I'mthe fun police, but when we look
at end of year celebration days, if you are going to a
recreational park that is wellknown and well run and you can
limit the location that youractivity is going to take place
(07:54):
in for example, if you're at oneof those massive aquatic theme
parks and you can say, right,well, we're just going to have
that pocket, that corner, oryou've got enough staff
attending that you can havesomeone supervising each one,
then maybe you can go ahead.
But if you're taking yourstudents to a pop-up aquatic
theme park that is perhaps notas regulated and not supervised
(08:18):
by lifeguards, then I would besuggesting that there are other
types of activities that arejust as fun that you might like
to consider as an alternative.
Drew (08:27):
Yeah, yeah.
So yes, hasten slowly, hencethe word hasten slowly.
Lucette (08:32):
Hasten slowly.
Drew (08:32):
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
So that's one piece andprincipals listening, as you
said, you're not the fun police,but you're also.
You're coming from the place ofprotection because you, I'd
imagine, deal with the aftermathof things that don't go to plan
(08:54):
, unfortunately.
Lucette (08:55):
That's right, and that's where the permission
resources come into play.
There's a specific noteassociated with every aquatic
activity and the unstructurednote is three pages long, and
that's because you need to tellparents that you're going to
test their children and if theydon't pass, they're not going to
be able to take part in theactivity.
(09:16):
You need to outline thealternate activities that are on
.
So it's just.
It is deliberately a lot morecumbersome in the administration
of an unstructured activity,whereas a structured swimming
activity it's just a simple note.
We've got the parent reportingparent indicating to us how well
their children may or may notswim.
Now, that's only a guide.
We never, we don't really takeparents word for how well their
children may or may not swim.
(09:36):
Now, that's only a guide.
We don't really take parents'word for how well their children
can spell or numeracy andliteracy, so we don't take it
for aquatics either.
So it's a guide in planning.
And then we're still doing thaton water testing to get them
started.
Drew (09:48):
Yeah, and is this across the primary sector or is this
across both primary and highschool sector?
Lucette (09:56):
Both Okay so my role spans the entire network and in
many instances I'm alsosupporting the other education
sectors, but it is all the waythrough from primary to
secondary, because all of thoseeducation settings take children
to aquatic activities.
That's right, yeah, so that'llkick off.
(10:17):
We then continue to managesupport throughout the
representative support pathway.
We can then come into winter,so then we start hitting the
collision sports.
Drew (10:29):
No pun intended, no, no, tell us about that because that
was spoken to, spoken by, Ishould say by, Peter Banks in
terms of a professional learningopportunity for concussions and
so forth.
So is that a space that you'reseeing a lot more participation
in terms of the professionallearning and understanding?
Lucette (10:50):
My word.
So when the AIS released theirnew concussion policies, which
were not fit for purpose for theeducation setting, but the
media jumped all over it.
So we were moving to respond tomedia inquiries as you guys
were welcoming students in thegates.
For the first time the AIS isnot an allied health service
(11:10):
provider and the departmentaligns all our advice to the
allied health services.
We've removed the count of daysassociated with any kind of
concussive injury or mildtraumatic brain injury, because
we're not medical experts.
So families have to get medicalclearance now for their students
, for their children, rather tocontinue to participate in sport
(11:32):
and physical activity.
You can imagine, at a statechampionship that might be a
little bit controversial Ifyou've got parents, maybe not
even a state championship,you've got parents who think
their children are vying forselection and it's been
perceived that they've taken ahead knock.
Those parents are perhaps goingto be reluctant to leave and go
(11:52):
and get medical clearance.
So it's difficult.
So we've removed that burdenfrom school teachers and
principals.
There's a flowchart now thattells you what to do and when to
do it, and we've created areporting tool that you can hand
over and say to parents youmust go and get this medical
clearance, or you can'tparticipate.
Drew (12:10):
And it's good to have that , and I presume that's on the
sport unit's website thatprincipals and educational
leaders can access.
That's right.
Lucette (12:18):
So on the school sport unit website we've got policy
and guidelines section in thelibrary of resources.
In that section on our websitethere's a tab called Supporting
Tools and Resources, which, forprincipals that are familiar
with the way the whole newpolicy library is structured,
Supporting Tools and Resourcesare on the left-hand nav.
It's the same place in everypolicy.
(12:40):
You click there and it willbring you to all the supporting
tools and resources.
So when you're on there you canfind advice about concussion,
about air quality, about water,water quality, what to do if
you've got a kid with a brokenarm whose mum wants him to play
soccer or her to play soccer.
What do you do about religiousjewellery?
Lots of sports say, take yourjewellery off.
But cultural beliefs so there'slots and lots of just that
(13:05):
really nuanced, nitty-grittystuff that you might only get it
once or twice a year and thenit slips your mind and you come
back to the next intake ofchildren the year after and it
bites you on the tail again.
So that's all there.
Drew (13:19):
But a really good professional learning
opportunity to play out, so tospeak, and utilise that as a
framework and the learningthrough what you've done this
year through the sports unitwith the AIS.
What I heard with theconcussion rule really shows the
year through the sports unitwith the ais.
What I heard with theconcussion rule really shows the
integrity of the sports unitand the piece of work aligning
(13:42):
with the new south walesdepartment of education
processes.
So thank you.
Firstly, thank you because, um,that is a complex space from
what I've just heard of all themedia at the start of the, the
year going through theconcussion rules and then that's
that framework that the sportsunit have to guide principals,
because principals want to, aswe all want to, do the right
(14:05):
thing to support that and theadvice is to go to the sport
unit and participate in thatprofessional learning about
concussion.
Lucette (14:12):
Yeah, so one of the one of the things that we've done
this year that's probably alittle bit out of the box while
we're always in thatprofessional learning about
concussion.
So one of the things that we'vedone this year that's probably
a little bit out of the boxwhile we're always in the
background.
In our supporting capacity, weidentified a really easy way to
make lives easy, make the lifeof principals easy when it comes
to the collection of permission.
So we were getting lots andlots of feedback from schools
(14:34):
saying we're not gettingparents' permission for sport,
or the kids just aren'treturning the note, or the kids
forget to take the note home andthen someone misses out.
So we've worked really hardwith legal services to and it
came about in consultation withthe executive principal at
Bourke High School.
(14:54):
So I'll close the gap piecewhere legal services have agreed
to support the notion thatsupport is business as usual, so
much like any other keylearning area.
And because it's business asusual, as long as it's being
delivered by teachers low-riskactivities on school grounds or
within the local community, thenthere's no permission needed.
(15:16):
So a parent notification stepis now in place and we've worked
with all of the third-partydigital platform providers to
get those steps up and running.
So at the beginning of the year.
Now, if you're only runningsport on the local setting or
within the local community,delivered by teachers, you can
(15:36):
hit a button once and you don'thave to collect permission again
so well.
Drew (15:42):
That is fantastic Great news for principals listening in
to ensure again, that iscutting the administration
burden and a common senseapproach.
So thank you, sports Unit, andthank you for those involved in
that policy, because it willhave a huge impact to lessen the
(16:03):
administration burden from theschool's perspective, and I can
hear principals going yes, thereis a solution.
Lucette (16:10):
Those principals that are using external providers may
not be going.
Yes, so unfortunately, if yourschool engages with external
providers to deliver what isbusiness as usual, you're still
going to have that cumbersomeprocess of permission per
activity.
It's quite a lengthy processand the reason is that external
providers bring in that layer.
(16:31):
They do it should be.
Sport and physical activityshould be being delivered by the
generalist teachers.
We've got all the resourcesthere that we need.
Hang on.
The sports unit has developedall the resources that
principals need to support theirteachers in delivering sport
and physical activity as italigns to the curriculum.
Drew (16:49):
Well, we've heard that today, in terms of all our
leaders, through the sports unit, are able to share just a
wonderful amount of resourcesthat are available, and it's
just being aware of that as well.
So, look within, look withinthe sports unit.
Colleagues, if you arelistening and also what I'm
hearing is if you are looking,if you are still thinking of
(17:12):
external, there's a few barriersthere that you need to overcome
to ensure that that'ssuccessfully delivered but.
If you're looking internal.
I can hearing principles going.
Lucette (17:22):
Yes, well with internal there's.
There's no cost, yes, which isa big thing for public education
.
Drew (17:28):
Absolutely.
Lucette (17:29):
And it's also you know.
Your release from face-to-facescan be organised within the
school setting.
You don't need an externalprovider to come in and get that
sorted for you.
Drew (17:37):
Yeah, terrific, so that's a big highlight for 2025.
Any other highlights you wantor resources you would like to
share for our principalslistening?
Lucette (17:49):
Not at this point.
Just keep watching the sportsunit website.
There's always new stuff comingout, new resources, new risk
assessment support, constantlyevolving, constantly moving to
help support the changinglandscape that schools are
juggling yeah.
Drew (18:07):
Sound advice.
Thank you, seth.
Thank you for your time today.
Dr Sylvia Corish, executiveDirector of Student Support and
Specialist Programs, whichincludes the New South Wales
Department of Education SchoolSports Unit.
Okay, welcome to our podcast,dr Sylvia Corrish.
Dr Silvia Corish (18:28):
Thank you, thanks Drew, thanks for inviting
me.
Drew (18:31):
Yeah, look, it's a pleasure to have you.
In terms of your role inoverseeing the sports unit, can
you give our listeners anoverview of what is your role in
the sports unit or what do yousee in your current position?
Dr Silvia Corish (18:48):
Okay, so I'm called the Executive Director of
Student Support and SpecialistPrograms.
I work, obviously, for publiceducation and with the
department.
The school sport unit is onesmall part of what I do.
I've got a very eclectic teamso the school sport unit is part
of art, sport and initiativesand that's a quarter of what my
(19:10):
team is.
But my background is as aprincipal, primary school
principal, very experienced inthat area and a whole range of
other things director, managingprincipals, executive director,
managing DELs and then I cameinto this role as executive
director student support,specialist programs and I have
the great honour of working upvery closely, up very closely
(19:33):
with the school support unit andthe amazing people, the experts
in that team and what they do.
Now, as a primary school teacher, primary principal, I knew some
of their work.
My school, my last school, wasin the Sutherland Shire, very
competitive, had a lot ofopportunities for our children
and they flourished on sport asall children do.
(19:56):
So, coming into this role nowand working with the likes of
Peter Banks he's the leader ofthe school sport unit and some
of the amazingly committedpeople that we have Huge range
of expertise, huge range ofexperience, able to provide
support for principals andschools very clever at being
(20:17):
able to work around situations.
So during COVID, for example,state office would come to this
team.
They would come to this team toask for advice.
They didn't go to theircurriculum advisors, they came
to the people on the ground whoare operational, who knew what
to do, who knew how we couldwork through a very challenging
circumstance, and I was veryproud and still am very proud to
(20:38):
be associated with them.
They actually make me look good.
They are incredibly talented,expert people and you know work
above and beyond because they'reso committed to what they're
doing to make sure that ourstudents have access to sporting
programs that are relevant forthem, that they're enjoying it
and they also have making surethat teachers have capacity
(21:02):
building and are confident inthe way that they engage, get
their students to engage insport.
We know that we have childrenwho come to school because they
have a love of sport.
That's the one thing that keepsthem there and gets them to
school.
So, regardless of what themotivation is, we want our
children to attend school.
(21:23):
We want them to attendregularly and if sport is a way
that we can encourage some ofour students not all to take
part in the life of a school andwhat education has to offer,
then the work of this team isreally very significant.
Drew (21:39):
Yeah, absolutely Well said .
For principals listening and Icouldn't agree more with what
you've said in terms of thevalue of what the sports unit
brings and, just listening today, in terms of all of the key
personnel in the sports unit andwhat support they can offer for
(22:00):
principals listening.
What's your advice toprincipals listening saying I
really want to incorporate sportinto my context.
What advice?
Dr Silvia Corish (22:15):
would you give to principals listening?
I would advise them to go toour website.
Have a look at what's on thewebsite.
Email the officers in the sportunit.
Ring them.
They will give you good, solid,grounded advice about where to
from here.
Regardless of whether you're aprincipal in a school with five
students or 2,000 students, theyhave the expertise to provide
(22:37):
support, and some of the workthat we've done this year that's
been quite interesting has comefrom principals saying I really
need help with X.
What can we do?
So that initiated a whole lotof work, and Peter is very aware
of this and Lucette King, lukeKing, who's very heavily
involved In terms of, startedfrom just a germ of an idea.
(23:01):
Principal in a remote school.
I've got all of these children.
It's really hard for me to getpermission notes from the
parents.
I really want them to getinvolved with sport Sport unit.
What can you do to help us?
Now?
That started a whole range ofdifferent things, and so the
team has worked consistently andvery hard and have come up with
(23:21):
a whole range of supportprograms that can help
principals in terms of parentpermissions, worked with legal
to minimise some of theresponsibility or some of the
you know some of the admin workthat comes with, sometimes,
students doing sport.
So that just came from aprincipal coming to me and I was
at a conference.
I was on a panel and he saidyou know what can you do?
(23:44):
It was Murray Cronin fromBourke High School and it grew
from there and it's somethingthat's now available for all of
our principals, k-12.
But that's one thing you knowwe have largely well, we do.
We have largely school-basedstaff, teachers who know how to
(24:05):
do it on the ground.
They can provide a very good,solid advice.
Drew (24:09):
Yeah, yeah, and it certainly has come through today
, listening in terms of all ofthe frameworks that operate
under the school sports unit,there's so many resources
available In terms of from aprofessional what I'm hearing is
a solution focus and also froma professional learning focus as
(24:31):
well for principals.
Is there any highlights thatyou know of that you could
discuss with us?
Dr Silvia Corish (24:37):
Look, I think that the team is very creative
and they're always willing to gothe extra mile.
Some of the work that they dois really quite incredible the
school, the swimming program,for example, and expanding that
so that satisfied more needs.
The work that we're doing ininclusive education, work with
our students with disability, isincredible.
Peter and Andrew Fipper, forexample, have been talking about
(25:02):
another principals conference.
That was something that Peterinitiated.
I think it was last year, Ithink it was in 2023.
We plan to do it again.
We're hoping to be able to doit in 2025.
But bringing togethersignificant players from schools
in terms of making sure theyunderstand what we can do in
terms of providing support forthem.
(25:23):
So you know, I don't have ahuge team.
It's not a huge team, so Ican't provide all the support
that people would want.
But if you come with us to uswith ideas, peter will make sure
that he works with the team andwith his director, geordie
Austin, to see what we can comeup in terms of the resourcing
that we have Very happy to help.
Drew (25:45):
Well, what I've heard is solution-focused, which is
fantastic to hear, and listening, listening, listening,
listening to work towards asolution and that's come through
today.
Any parting advice, dr SylviaGoresh, for the listeners or
principals listening in Justreach out to us.
Dr Silvia Corish (26:07):
You know, nothing is ridiculous.
We can't.
No, you might give us a germ ofan idea you might, it might
take.
It might be an easy thing thatwe can say, yes, we know about
that or we can link you up withso-and-so.
But please make sure that youask, because the more
connections that we have, themore support that we can provide
across the whole state.
(26:28):
And it's you know, we go fromelite sports people, you know,
from competitive sport pathwayto managing different sorts of
very small school gala daysevents, you know, in country
towns.
Whatever, we're there to help,we're there to provide advice
(26:49):
and support in any way that wecan.
Drew (26:51):
Fantastic advice.
Thank you again for your time,dr Sylvia Corish, everyone.
Dr Silvia Corish (26:57):
Thank you.
Thanks, Drew Bye.
Drew (27:00):
Thanks again for listening and if you've enjoyed this
four-part series with the NewSouth Wales Department of
Education School Sport Unit,please share it with your
colleagues, friends and familyto show the truly meaningful
work of the New South WalesDepartment of Education School
Sports Unit.
It really does change lives andthere is so much as we have
(27:20):
unpacked in this four-partseries of really high
qualityquality professionallearning.
So until next time, I lookforward to your company in our
next podcast.
You.
Welcome back to Professional Learning's the New
South Wales PPA EducationalLeadership Podcast.
It's great to have your company.
This podcast aligns to thevalues of the New South Wales
Primary Principals Association,that is, the values of principal
wellbeing, principals as leadlearners, as well as supporting
principals to lead schooloperations.
(00:23):
If you enjoy this podcast,don't forget to subscribe for
further updates.
Now let's get into today'slatest episode.
This is the fourth and finalepisode of a four-part series
with the New South WalesDepartment of Education Sports
Unit.
There have been so manyfantastic takeaways from each of
(00:44):
our guests in each episode.
Before we conclude, a hugethanks to Andrew Hooper, who is
our New South Wales PPArepresentative for PWSA Sport,
who was able to coordinate allof our special guests from the
New South Wales School SportsUnit unit.
Now, as I have stated in each ofthese episodes, if you're
(01:05):
listening and thinking, how doesthe school sport unit align
with professional learning?
Well, I strongly encourage youto listen back to our previous
three episodes, where we coveredevidence-based research,
science around the brain,alignment with your school
excellence framework, thewellbeing benefits of sport and
(01:25):
retention, as well as supportingstudents with disabilities,
just to name a few.
Our guests in the final podcastseries are Lissette King and Dr
Sylvia Corish.
Lissette King is a sport policyadvisor attached to the New
South Wales School Sport Unitand is part of the Arts
Initiative for the New SouthWales School Sport Unit and is
part of the arts initiative forthe New South Wales Department
(01:47):
of Education.
Our final guest in this podcastseries is Dr Sylvia Corish,
who'll summarise, synthesise thekey messages and the wisdom
from all of our guests.
Dr Corish shares insights intothe importance of the New South
Wales School Sports Unit.
Let's start now.
Lucette (02:10):
My name's Lucette.
I'm the Sport Policy Advisorattached to the School Sport
Unit as part of Arts, Sports andInitiatives.
Drew (02:17):
Terrific, lucette.
Welcome to our podcast, wherewe're focusing on all things
sport and, as you said in yourtitle, you are the policy
advisor.
Did I get that correct?
You are the sport policyadvisor.
Can you tell our audience whatthat role, what does that role
(02:38):
look and sound and feel like forour people listening?
Lucette (02:42):
Okay, I will give it a try.
So my role is to support ourschool leaders and teachers in
making sure that all of theopportunities that are provided
through weekly school sport aredone safely and in a compliant
way with all of the department'srules and regs and standards,
(03:05):
and then, obviously, the laws aswell.
So my job primarily focuses onthat school leadership support.
But then I'm in the backgroundworking behind in assisting
principals and school leaders todig themselves out of any
difficulties that come up.
Principals and school leadersto dig themselves out of any
(03:26):
difficulties that come up.
In many instances my role issupporting between the black and
white.
So the policy says this aschool principal is perhaps
asking to do something slightlydifferent, and how can we work
together to get that opportunityin place for the students
safely?
Drew (03:42):
Yeah, yeah, really important to unpack that further
.
So what are the themes that arecurrent in your context, that
you're working through?
Lucette (03:53):
The themes come and go.
They're a bit cyclicaldepending on the time of the
year.
Then we start heading intowinter and we'll get concussion
and collision sports coming.
We get a couple of winter sportquestions at that point, where
students are representingstudents are participating in
events called inter-schoolsports, events that have nothing
to do with the department andthen there is a perennial
(04:16):
external providers yeah, so fewthings to navigate there through
in that, in that cycle.
Drew (04:22):
How long have you been in the role for?
Lucette (04:24):
I've been in this role now for six years, but I've been
part of the sports unit forlonger than most people out
there have been teaching.
I've been in the school sportunit for 30 years.
Drew (04:34):
Oh wow, Congratulations.
What a great achievement, andI'm sure you have seen a lot of
changes in that time as well.
Lucette (04:41):
A lot of changes and been privileged to work with
some amazing mentors and yeah,so it's the best place in the
department to work.
I like to tell people Sorry tothose listening.
Drew (04:54):
Well, it sounds great and we're going to go further into
those topics or those themes,like you said, recording this in
Decembercember, nearly the endof the year, two or three weeks
to go before the end of the year.
Busy time in schools, as as weall know.
(05:14):
I'm not saying anything newhere.
However, the uns tell us alittle bit more about some
things that are coming throughfrom your perspective.
Lucette (05:22):
On the unstructured swimming, so when you asked me
what are the common themes, Ikind of did a chunk by chunk
timeline of the things that popup annually.
The biggest piece of work thatwe're doing at the moment is the
release of the new permissionsupport.
So that's a one-off, but I'lldo unstructured swimming first
because that was the questionthat you asked.
(05:44):
It's a one-off, but I'll dounstructured swimming first
because that was the questionthat you asked.
So the department has a set ofguidelines that are in place for
schools that are deliveringfree swimming activities.
Those guidelines are designedto almost make it impossible to
deliver free swimming.
That is not recommended.
You can, you can do it, but itwould be much, much better to
structure an activity.
(06:04):
When we look at the educationaloutcomes of potentially
attending a water theme park,I'm hard pressed to tick a box
to say what outcomes there are.
And all of those activities areunstructured.
Unstructured swimming is anactivity that is not led by a
(06:24):
teacher.
The student's swimming abilityneeds to be tested either before
the activity takes place or onthe day.
So that's an added burden,while the supervision of the
activity must be undertaken.
There's no rhyme or rhythm tohow that activity is being
conducted.
So it was brought in.
(06:46):
The unstructured swimmingguidelines were brought in
following a fatality in the BlueMountains and it was part of a
set of coronial recommendations.
So I work with schools to makesure all swimming activities are
structured.
So we provide novelty events,we talk about ways to make sure
that the activity is being ledin suitable water conditions,
(07:10):
all that sort of stuff.
Drew (07:12):
So what I'm hearing from that is to hasten cautiously is
probably potential advice toprincipals.
Listening with unstructuredgoing to, whether it's a theme
park or water parks,unstructured is that what I'm
hearing?
Lucette (07:31):
yeah, look, it's when we're looking at end of year
celebration days.
I often tell people that I'mthe fun police, but when we look
at end of year celebration days, if you are going to a
recreational park that is wellknown and well run and you can
limit the location that youractivity is going to take place
(07:54):
in for example, if you're at oneof those massive aquatic theme
parks and you can say, right,well, we're just going to have
that pocket, that corner, oryou've got enough staff
attending that you can havesomeone supervising each one,
then maybe you can go ahead.
But if you're taking yourstudents to a pop-up aquatic
theme park that is perhaps notas regulated and not supervised
(08:18):
by lifeguards, then I would besuggesting that there are other
types of activities that arejust as fun that you might like
to consider as an alternative.
Drew (08:27):
Yeah, yeah.
So yes, hasten slowly, hencethe word hasten slowly.
Lucette (08:32):
Hasten slowly.
Drew (08:32):
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
So that's one piece andprincipals listening, as you
said, you're not the fun police,but you're also.
You're coming from the place ofprotection because you, I'd
imagine, deal with the aftermathof things that don't go to plan
(08:54):
, unfortunately.
Lucette (08:55):
That's right, and that's where the permission
resources come into play.
There's a specific noteassociated with every aquatic
activity and the unstructurednote is three pages long, and
that's because you need to tellparents that you're going to
test their children and if theydon't pass, they're not going to
be able to take part in theactivity.
(09:16):
You need to outline thealternate activities that are on
.
So it's just.
It is deliberately a lot morecumbersome in the administration
of an unstructured activity,whereas a structured swimming
activity it's just a simple note.
We've got the parent reportingparent indicating to us how well
their children may or may notswim.
Now, that's only a guide.
We never, we don't really takeparents word for how well their
children may or may not swim.
(09:36):
Now, that's only a guide.
We don't really take parents'word for how well their children
can spell or numeracy andliteracy, so we don't take it
for aquatics either.
So it's a guide in planning.
And then we're still doing thaton water testing to get them
started.
Drew (09:48):
Yeah, and is this across the primary sector or is this
across both primary and highschool sector?
Lucette (09:56):
Both Okay so my role spans the entire network and in
many instances I'm alsosupporting the other education
sectors, but it is all the waythrough from primary to
secondary, because all of thoseeducation settings take children
to aquatic activities.
That's right, yeah, so that'llkick off.
(10:17):
We then continue to managesupport throughout the
representative support pathway.
We can then come into winter,so then we start hitting the
collision sports.
Drew (10:29):
No pun intended, no, no, tell us about that because that
was spoken to, spoken by, Ishould say by, Peter Banks in
terms of a professional learningopportunity for concussions and
so forth.
So is that a space that you'reseeing a lot more participation
in terms of the professionallearning and understanding?
Lucette (10:50):
My word.
So when the AIS released theirnew concussion policies, which
were not fit for purpose for theeducation setting, but the
media jumped all over it.
So we were moving to respond tomedia inquiries as you guys
were welcoming students in thegates.
For the first time the AIS isnot an allied health service
(11:10):
provider and the departmentaligns all our advice to the
allied health services.
We've removed the count of daysassociated with any kind of
concussive injury or mildtraumatic brain injury, because
we're not medical experts.
So families have to get medicalclearance now for their students
, for their children, rather tocontinue to participate in sport
(11:32):
and physical activity.
You can imagine, at a statechampionship that might be a
little bit controversial Ifyou've got parents, maybe not
even a state championship,you've got parents who think
their children are vying forselection and it's been
perceived that they've taken ahead knock.
Those parents are perhaps goingto be reluctant to leave and go
(11:52):
and get medical clearance.
So it's difficult.
So we've removed that burdenfrom school teachers and
principals.
There's a flowchart now thattells you what to do and when to
do it, and we've created areporting tool that you can hand
over and say to parents youmust go and get this medical
clearance, or you can'tparticipate.
Drew (12:10):
And it's good to have that , and I presume that's on the
sport unit's website thatprincipals and educational
leaders can access.
That's right.
Lucette (12:18):
So on the school sport unit website we've got policy
and guidelines section in thelibrary of resources.
In that section on our websitethere's a tab called Supporting
Tools and Resources, which, forprincipals that are familiar
with the way the whole newpolicy library is structured,
Supporting Tools and Resourcesare on the left-hand nav.
It's the same place in everypolicy.
(12:40):
You click there and it willbring you to all the supporting
tools and resources.
So when you're on there you canfind advice about concussion,
about air quality, about water,water quality, what to do if
you've got a kid with a brokenarm whose mum wants him to play
soccer or her to play soccer.
What do you do about religiousjewellery?
Lots of sports say, take yourjewellery off.
But cultural beliefs so there'slots and lots of just that
(13:05):
really nuanced, nitty-grittystuff that you might only get it
once or twice a year and thenit slips your mind and you come
back to the next intake ofchildren the year after and it
bites you on the tail again.
So that's all there.
Drew (13:19):
But a really good professional learning
opportunity to play out, so tospeak, and utilise that as a
framework and the learningthrough what you've done this
year through the sports unitwith the AIS.
What I heard with theconcussion rule really shows the
year through the sports unitwith the ais.
What I heard with theconcussion rule really shows the
integrity of the sports unitand the piece of work aligning
(13:42):
with the new south walesdepartment of education
processes.
So thank you.
Firstly, thank you because, um,that is a complex space from
what I've just heard of all themedia at the start of the, the
year going through theconcussion rules and then that's
that framework that the sportsunit have to guide principals,
because principals want to, aswe all want to, do the right
(14:05):
thing to support that and theadvice is to go to the sport
unit and participate in thatprofessional learning about
concussion.
Lucette (14:12):
Yeah, so one of the one of the things that we've done
this year that's probably alittle bit out of the box while
we're always in thatprofessional learning about
concussion.
So one of the things that we'vedone this year that's probably
a little bit out of the boxwhile we're always in the
background.
In our supporting capacity, weidentified a really easy way to
make lives easy, make the lifeof principals easy when it comes
to the collection of permission.
So we were getting lots andlots of feedback from schools
(14:34):
saying we're not gettingparents' permission for sport,
or the kids just aren'treturning the note, or the kids
forget to take the note home andthen someone misses out.
So we've worked really hardwith legal services to and it
came about in consultation withthe executive principal at
Bourke High School.
(14:54):
So I'll close the gap piecewhere legal services have agreed
to support the notion thatsupport is business as usual, so
much like any other keylearning area.
And because it's business asusual, as long as it's being
delivered by teachers low-riskactivities on school grounds or
within the local community, thenthere's no permission needed.
(15:16):
So a parent notification stepis now in place and we've worked
with all of the third-partydigital platform providers to
get those steps up and running.
So at the beginning of the year.
Now, if you're only runningsport on the local setting or
within the local community,delivered by teachers, you can
(15:36):
hit a button once and you don'thave to collect permission again
so well.
Drew (15:42):
That is fantastic Great news for principals listening in
to ensure again, that iscutting the administration
burden and a common senseapproach.
So thank you, sports Unit, andthank you for those involved in
that policy, because it willhave a huge impact to lessen the
(16:03):
administration burden from theschool's perspective, and I can
hear principals going yes, thereis a solution.
Lucette (16:10):
Those principals that are using external providers may
not be going.
Yes, so unfortunately, if yourschool engages with external
providers to deliver what isbusiness as usual, you're still
going to have that cumbersomeprocess of permission per
activity.
It's quite a lengthy processand the reason is that external
providers bring in that layer.
(16:31):
They do it should be.
Sport and physical activityshould be being delivered by the
generalist teachers.
We've got all the resourcesthere that we need.
Hang on.
The sports unit has developedall the resources that
principals need to support theirteachers in delivering sport
and physical activity as italigns to the curriculum.
Drew (16:49):
Well, we've heard that today, in terms of all our
leaders, through the sports unit, are able to share just a
wonderful amount of resourcesthat are available, and it's
just being aware of that as well.
So, look within, look withinthe sports unit.
Colleagues, if you arelistening and also what I'm
hearing is if you are looking,if you are still thinking of
(17:12):
external, there's a few barriersthere that you need to overcome
to ensure that that'ssuccessfully delivered but.
If you're looking internal.
I can hearing principles going.
Lucette (17:22):
Yes, well with internal there's.
There's no cost, yes, which isa big thing for public education
.
Drew (17:28):
Absolutely.
Lucette (17:29):
And it's also you know.
Your release from face-to-facescan be organised within the
school setting.
You don't need an externalprovider to come in and get that
sorted for you.
Drew (17:37):
Yeah, terrific, so that's a big highlight for 2025.
Any other highlights you wantor resources you would like to
share for our principalslistening?
Lucette (17:49):
Not at this point.
Just keep watching the sportsunit website.
There's always new stuff comingout, new resources, new risk
assessment support, constantlyevolving, constantly moving to
help support the changinglandscape that schools are
juggling yeah.
Drew (18:07):
Sound advice.
Thank you, seth.
Thank you for your time today.
Dr Sylvia Corish, executiveDirector of Student Support and
Specialist Programs, whichincludes the New South Wales
Department of Education SchoolSports Unit.
Okay, welcome to our podcast,dr Sylvia Corrish.
Dr Silvia Corish (18:28):
Thank you, thanks Drew, thanks for inviting
me.
Drew (18:31):
Yeah, look, it's a pleasure to have you.
In terms of your role inoverseeing the sports unit, can
you give our listeners anoverview of what is your role in
the sports unit or what do yousee in your current position?
Dr Silvia Corish (18:48):
Okay, so I'm called the Executive Director of
Student Support and SpecialistPrograms.
I work, obviously, for publiceducation and with the
department.
The school sport unit is onesmall part of what I do.
I've got a very eclectic teamso the school sport unit is part
of art, sport and initiativesand that's a quarter of what my
(19:10):
team is.
But my background is as aprincipal, primary school
principal, very experienced inthat area and a whole range of
other things director, managingprincipals, executive director,
managing DELs and then I cameinto this role as executive
director student support,specialist programs and I have
the great honour of working upvery closely, up very closely
(19:33):
with the school support unit andthe amazing people, the experts
in that team and what they do.
Now, as a primary school teacher, primary principal, I knew some
of their work.
My school, my last school, wasin the Sutherland Shire, very
competitive, had a lot ofopportunities for our children
and they flourished on sport asall children do.
(19:56):
So, coming into this role nowand working with the likes of
Peter Banks he's the leader ofthe school sport unit and some
of the amazingly committedpeople that we have Huge range
of expertise, huge range ofexperience, able to provide
support for principals andschools very clever at being
(20:17):
able to work around situations.
So during COVID, for example,state office would come to this
team.
They would come to this team toask for advice.
They didn't go to theircurriculum advisors, they came
to the people on the ground whoare operational, who knew what
to do, who knew how we couldwork through a very challenging
circumstance, and I was veryproud and still am very proud to
(20:38):
be associated with them.
They actually make me look good.
They are incredibly talented,expert people and you know work
above and beyond because they'reso committed to what they're
doing to make sure that ourstudents have access to sporting
programs that are relevant forthem, that they're enjoying it
and they also have making surethat teachers have capacity
(21:02):
building and are confident inthe way that they engage, get
their students to engage insport.
We know that we have childrenwho come to school because they
have a love of sport.
That's the one thing that keepsthem there and gets them to
school.
So, regardless of what themotivation is, we want our
children to attend school.
(21:23):
We want them to attendregularly and if sport is a way
that we can encourage some ofour students not all to take
part in the life of a school andwhat education has to offer,
then the work of this team isreally very significant.
Drew (21:39):
Yeah, absolutely Well said .
For principals listening and Icouldn't agree more with what
you've said in terms of thevalue of what the sports unit
brings and, just listening today, in terms of all of the key
personnel in the sports unit andwhat support they can offer for
(22:00):
principals listening.
What's your advice toprincipals listening saying I
really want to incorporate sportinto my context.
What advice?
Dr Silvia Corish (22:15):
would you give to principals listening?
I would advise them to go toour website.
Have a look at what's on thewebsite.
Email the officers in the sportunit.
Ring them.
They will give you good, solid,grounded advice about where to
from here.
Regardless of whether you're aprincipal in a school with five
students or 2,000 students, theyhave the expertise to provide
(22:37):
support, and some of the workthat we've done this year that's
been quite interesting has comefrom principals saying I really
need help with X.
What can we do?
So that initiated a whole lotof work, and Peter is very aware
of this and Lucette King, lukeKing, who's very heavily
involved In terms of, startedfrom just a germ of an idea.
(23:01):
Principal in a remote school.
I've got all of these children.
It's really hard for me to getpermission notes from the
parents.
I really want them to getinvolved with sport Sport unit.
What can you do to help us?
Now?
That started a whole range ofdifferent things, and so the
team has worked consistently andvery hard and have come up with
(23:21):
a whole range of supportprograms that can help
principals in terms of parentpermissions, worked with legal
to minimise some of theresponsibility or some of the
you know some of the admin workthat comes with, sometimes,
students doing sport.
So that just came from aprincipal coming to me and I was
at a conference.
I was on a panel and he saidyou know what can you do?
(23:44):
It was Murray Cronin fromBourke High School and it grew
from there and it's somethingthat's now available for all of
our principals, k-12.
But that's one thing you knowwe have largely well, we do.
We have largely school-basedstaff, teachers who know how to
(24:05):
do it on the ground.
They can provide a very good,solid advice.
Drew (24:09):
Yeah, yeah, and it certainly has come through today
, listening in terms of all ofthe frameworks that operate
under the school sports unit,there's so many resources
available In terms of from aprofessional what I'm hearing is
a solution focus and also froma professional learning focus as
(24:31):
well for principals.
Is there any highlights thatyou know of that you could
discuss with us?
Dr Silvia Corish (24:37):
Look, I think that the team is very creative
and they're always willing to gothe extra mile.
Some of the work that they dois really quite incredible the
school, the swimming program,for example, and expanding that
so that satisfied more needs.
The work that we're doing ininclusive education, work with
our students with disability, isincredible.
Peter and Andrew Fipper, forexample, have been talking about
(25:02):
another principals conference.
That was something that Peterinitiated.
I think it was last year, Ithink it was in 2023.
We plan to do it again.
We're hoping to be able to doit in 2025.
But bringing togethersignificant players from schools
in terms of making sure theyunderstand what we can do in
terms of providing support forthem.
(25:23):
So you know, I don't have ahuge team.
It's not a huge team, so Ican't provide all the support
that people would want.
But if you come with us to uswith ideas, peter will make sure
that he works with the team andwith his director, geordie
Austin, to see what we can comeup in terms of the resourcing
that we have Very happy to help.
Drew (25:45):
Well, what I've heard is solution-focused, which is
fantastic to hear, and listening, listening, listening,
listening to work towards asolution and that's come through
today.
Any parting advice, dr SylviaGoresh, for the listeners or
principals listening in Justreach out to us.
Dr Silvia Corish (26:07):
You know, nothing is ridiculous.
We can't.
No, you might give us a germ ofan idea you might, it might
take.
It might be an easy thing thatwe can say, yes, we know about
that or we can link you up withso-and-so.
But please make sure that youask, because the more
connections that we have, themore support that we can provide
across the whole state.
(26:28):
And it's you know, we go fromelite sports people, you know,
from competitive sport pathwayto managing different sorts of
very small school gala daysevents, you know, in country
towns.
Whatever, we're there to help,we're there to provide advice
(26:49):
and support in any way that wecan.
Drew (26:51):
Fantastic advice.
Thank you again for your time,dr Sylvia Corish, everyone.
Dr Silvia Corish (26:57):
Thank you.
Thanks, Drew Bye.
Drew (27:00):
Thanks again for listening and if you've enjoyed this
four-part series with the NewSouth Wales Department of
Education School Sport Unit,please share it with your
colleagues, friends and familyto show the truly meaningful
work of the New South WalesDepartment of Education School
Sports Unit.
It really does change lives andthere is so much as we have
(27:20):
unpacked in this four-partseries of really high
qualityquality professionallearning.
So until next time, I lookforward to your company in our
next podcast.
You.
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