March 19, 2024 • 23 mins
Have you ever wondered what it takes to transform a school into a place where students don't just learn, but thrive? Rob Stones, a veteran in educational leadership, shares his journey from a fledgling leader to a principal who turned the tide in a remote school. With his insights rooted in the philosophy of William Glasser, Rob delves into the essence of building trust and embracing non-coercive discipline. It's an exploration of the trials, errors, and ultimately, the strategies that lead to an educational environment where students are not just present, but engaged and excited to be there.
Now, if you're ready to elevate your leadership skills beyond the basics, our conversation on the advanced masterclass is a must-listen. Designed for graduates of the Art of Leadership course, this segment offers a deeper understanding of how to shape the culture and ethos of your school sustainably. Rob cautions against the allure of quick fixes and spotlights the commitment to transformational leadership and effective coaching. For anyone ready to embody the change they seek in the educational sphere, this episode serves as both a guide and a testament to the power of dedicated, thoughtful leadership in creating a lasting impact.
Links and References:
To view our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning
To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Drew (00:00):
Hello and welcome to season two of the Principal
Learning Podcast.
If you're a principal oreducational leader looking to a
hand to your skills, this is aplace for you, so let's get into
it.
Let's embark on this learningjourney together.
So in this episode is the firstof a three-part series with Rob
Stone, who is one of theoriginal creators, designers and
(00:23):
facilitators of the New SouthWales Primary Principles
Association's Part of LeadershipProgram.
Rob is also a facilitator ofthe Art of Leadership Learning
Class.
This podcast is the first of athree-part series with Rob
Stones.
We have to learn properly,structure our own casting in a
serious way, as it allows us todetermine the vast amount of
(00:43):
knowledge and wisdom that itshares in our conversation.
In this first episode wediscuss broad spectrum of this
youth also education and how theArt of Leadership Program is so
critical in developing yourleadership skills.
Our second podcast will beguided through the practical
aspects of the Art of LeadershipProgram and how to implement
(01:05):
your leadership every day as aleader.
Our third podcast will bediscussing Rob's publications
that have all come as a resultof the Art of Leadership's
teachings.
It's a privilege to listen toRob's insights and I hope you
gain some very valuablepractical tips and suggestions,
(01:28):
as I put you, in your leadershipjourney.
So enjoy Rob Stone's Rob Stone'swelcome.
Great to thank you for beingavailable and talking to us
about.
Really we're going to be goinginto several directions.
(01:49):
Firstly is to talk about yourprofessional learning journey
and what led you to where youare today and what inspires you
to continue to work ineducational leadership.
Rob (02:03):
Well, I suppose my learning journey was important.
At the start of my career I gotan early leadership position
and was much good at it, gotbetter, became pretty much the
sort of leader who tried to dowhat people wanted to do and
(02:24):
what people loved him and thehierarchy taught him to do and
plotted on like that and thenwent to Bamagur for my first
principal shift.
So Bamagur was then thenorthern low school on the top
of the tip of the Cape YorkPeninsula, very isolated, 100
(02:47):
and something kids, so verysmall secondary school.
I had 100 and something kidswhen I first went there.
20 kids come to school thefirst morning.
The rest they do what they weredoing fishing and exploring the
(03:10):
bush and riding wild horses andall sorts of things.
So straight away I was no longerin the little bubble where in a
mainstream community theparents chased the kids to
school.
I had to do something differentVery early on.
Teachers who had been there fora while which is not many
(03:31):
because Bamagur turned over veryquickly, but teachers who had
been there for a while sharedwell, they will come to school
if they think it's worthwhile.
So what are we doing to attractthem to school In a way that
(03:52):
was seminal to everything thatdrove my leadership since then.
For me, since then, leadershiphas always been about what are
we doing to provide the best andmost attractive service for the
students of our school, for thekids, for the children?
Drew (04:14):
So how did you go with that that you've placed in this
isolated area?
You're very green and youunderplayed it, but you even
said I wasn't much good at it.
So I think that maybe anunderstatement, but where was
your mind in terms of thinkingthere?
Rob (04:34):
Well, obviously at the time I thought I was doing okay
and so that's a retrospectivejudgment that I wasn't much good
at it.
I mean, I was obviously doingwell enough to get a job as a
principal.
I'll be right on the extremesof the state, so I wasn't at the
top of anybody's list.
But I took some books with meand one of the books I took to
(04:57):
read because I knew I'd havesome time has spilt glasses.
Schools without failure, as Iwas talking about to my staff is
how do we turn this into aschool where there's no failure?
And will the kids come toschool if they feel successful?
And the answer to the last wasyes, the kids will come to
school if they think they'rebeing successful.
(05:17):
And could we turn Emega HighSchool there into that school?
Well, we tried.
My predecessor had made somesteps.
There's a huge.
There's right next to theschool was a farm that had been
long, long I don't think it wasever successful long long
(05:39):
overgrown by bush.
But he started off.
He had the idea that if wecleared the farm we could do a
lot of useful learning thatpeople could use on site in the
north of Peninsular.
So I continued that initiativeand started to look for all
(05:59):
sorts of other reasons.
We did an array of things we did.
We turned our art programaround so that a lot of the
traditional artifacts so it's acarving community, basically
most of the traditionalartifacts are carved we used all
the mediums that we could toallow the kids to do great
(06:21):
traditional artifacts in anon-traditional way.
We found that lots of studentsand their parents really enjoyed
that.
We did lots and lots of tweaksand very much we worked on the
relationship between studentsand teachers and so the way as
to how much the communityactually氣 it was how much, how
much the community was doingthat the students, my principles
as a local citizen that don'tthink we would be processing
this at our ownlam and usingdocumentation to contact and
look at how much of thisdistributed, what we citizens
(06:42):
might need, because yeahabsolutely so.
Glassa had three key messages,okay.
The first was develop goodrelationships with the students.
The second is beingnon-coercive.
(07:03):
If you bully the kids, theywon't come to school or they
won't do well.
And the third thing is still,have clear boundaries.
So the schools got boundaries.
If the kids think the schooldoesn't have boundaries or the
class teacher doesn't haveboundaries, then nothing
(07:24):
productive will happen, so thatthe process is not I am the
authority figure and I'll bullyyou to get what I want, but the
process is I'm someone who'sdeveloping a good relationship
with you.
You can trust me.
But there are boundaries tothis relationship.
But in this classroom, okay,and we're going to stick with it
(07:46):
of you and I and I can promiseyou that I'll.
You know, he picked up theunconditional positive regard
piece and if we show usunconditional positive regard,
then the students will test us.
(08:07):
But then, after they've testedus for a while, they'll figure
out that we do really care aboutthem, so they'll work with us.
So that was Glasses prettyclear messaging schools without
failure, as it has been throughall of the books about education
that he's written.
So we tried to do that and itwas fun.
You know we did things with thekids.
(08:30):
You know, the teachers wereplaying volleyball after school
and all the kids, heaps of kids,would come and join in and it
would be really nice to see kidscome back from the holidays.
You know, if they'dstraightaway come and give the
teachers a hug, you know, andsay I'm glad to be back, and so
(08:53):
on.
So it was a nice atmosphere tobe in.
But it was isolated and therewere some things you couldn't
control.
So if there was a funeral or atombstone opening, so after a
funeral they make the tombstoneand then they open the tombstone
so that it's like the openingof a public building, so both
(09:17):
those things are holidays.
Okay, funeral is a holiday,tombstone opening is a holiday.
If there's a tombstone openingin a distant community or out on
one of the islands, all thefamilies go.
So all of a sudden we go backto 10 kids at school again.
You just have to live with therhythms of that.
Then when they're back, theycome to school and we do some
(09:39):
good work.
Drew (09:44):
Yeah.
Rob (09:46):
Yeah, that's right.
But I guess the purpose of thatlong story is to say like it's
changing what you can controland what you can't control.
Yeah, Taking the boxes forleading a school.
I'm now someone who works withhis staff to try and provide the
(10:06):
best possible service for thestudent community that we serve.
So I took that into my otherprincipalships and it's very
much a part of the workshopprograms that I teach and the
executive coaching I do thetraditional ways of doing things
(10:28):
, running everything as if it'sa hierarchy that Los Tills, the
deputies want to do and thedeputies tell the teachers what
to do and everybody kind of rubsalong even if nobody's terribly
happy about it.
It's never going to work withmy way of thinking about
leadership.
So when I'm running aleadership workshop I have to
present it as a way ofconnecting so strongly with your
(10:51):
teaching staff andunderstanding you kids and your
teachers so well that we'reinfluencing them, we're getting
the best out of them.
Drew (11:11):
Yeah, so it's really understanding your context and
relating that knowledge you haveinto that context, importantly
underpin by classes, theoriesand also, but more importantly,
is ensuring there's trust andconnection prior to any learning
(11:32):
taking, a high quality learningtaking place.
Rob (11:38):
Yes, because whatever you read in the area of education
and interpersonal relationships,you get the same message.
Glass is not the only internalcontrol psychology theorists.
There are heaps and heaps ofothers Edward DC and his
organization, theself-determination theoryorg and
(12:01):
go to his website.
He's.
Glass wasn't a researcher, butDC's researched all this stuff.
Now, what's the effect ofcoercion on kids?
What's the effect of rewards onkids?
What's the effect ofthreatening to kids?
What's the effect of goodrelationships with young people?
And the theoretical frameworkon which his work is based is
(12:27):
very strong now, and in the artof leadership, for example, we
gather all of that through thetheoretical framework to try to
convince leaders who attend theart of leadership that their
main job is to connect witheverybody in their community.
Now we take that further in theart of leadership masterclass
(12:49):
because it's called I think wecall it something like vibrant
leadership for connectedcommunities.
It's about taking that evenfurther and making sure that
everybody's connected, not justwith each other, but with the
key ideas that the school isoperating on, so that nobody's
asking at any time why we'redoing this.
(13:10):
They know what we're doing.
Drew (13:15):
Well, you did go.
We will go to the art ofleadership, Rob, with the work
that you have established andthere's a history with the New
South Wales Primary PrinciplesAssociation.
I believe you can correct me ifI'm wrong here.
There are over 61 programs heldsince 2013.
The art of leadership.
(13:36):
So, for a program such a long,rich history, are you able to
share some of the successstories or outcomes that have
resulted from your teaching?
Rob (13:50):
Well, I think that it's practical.
I mean there's theoryunderpinning everything in it,
but there's a lot of skillbuilding and a lot of ways of
thinking practically about as aprincipal, what do you do with
people, how do you bring themall together?
(14:15):
Because, understandably,systems you know an education
system.
We didn't teach in the privateCatholic system, but I have done
some programs there and it'sthe same.
They have a system and thesystem tells them to do things
and the system is aboutschooling, not necessarily about
(14:36):
education.
I'm not critical of it.
It couldn't possibly bedifferent from how it is.
The only thing that can make adifference is leaders in the
school.
But they can make a differencebecause they can shift.
They can either use theirposition power horticratically
(14:56):
to make things happen, or theycan use their inspiration and
personal influence to persuadepeople to go along with them and
to adopt the measures that theyadvocate for.
The difference is engagementand commitment.
You can have a school staff whoare strongly engaged with the
(15:19):
purpose of the school, whoabsolutely understand the
purpose of what they're alltrying to do together.
You can have a group of peoplewho learn together, who are
willing to dig in together tothe details and learn from each
(15:39):
other.
Some teachers haveextraordinary success with a
class or a group of students.
Other people want to know whatthey're doing.
You can set up that context oryou can set up the context where
everybody just has to plotthrough the curriculum, do their
best with their own class andwhere Every now and again there
(16:02):
are a lot of changes ofdirection because something has
changed out hiding the school inthe context, or they've got a
new instruction from theDepartment of Education or
something.
So I mean, inevitably schoolsare going to get new instruction
from the Department ofEducation, but because systems
really want what schools want,which is the kids to do well and
(16:25):
the teachers to be engaged andcommitted, you just have to
tweak whatever the message isand still keep doing the same
thing.
In all my career, nobody evertold me, rob, you're getting too
much enthusiasm and commitmentfrom your teachers or your
teachers Teachers have got toogood a relationship with the
students.
(16:45):
That's not going to happen.
Those things are supported butthey can't be imposed from the
outside.
So the bureaucracy, if you like, does its best to think about
what might improve things, butbecause they're not in the
school, they can't do it.
So neither people in the schoolcan do it.
So we try to get that messageacross fairly strongly in the
(17:08):
art of leadership and it'sgratifying that quite a few
experienced principals have saidto Judy or I after the six days
of the art of leadership youknow I've been a principal for a
long time Ten years, sometimes20 years and now I suddenly
understand what my job really isand that's gratifying to hear
(17:28):
that kind of thing.
Drew (17:33):
It's that light bulb moment and as a participant
myself, I can attest to thatchanging light bulb things that
do come through the course.
It's that reflection ofpractice but giving the time to
actually explore and delve intoand it's a real key to the
success of the work, of thestructure, of having a phase one
(17:55):
and then having a consolidationof the phase two.
Yeah, yeah, it's remarkable interms of just it's our key.
I would say well, it is, it'sour crown jewel to the
professional learning suite.
So you alluded to themasterclass.
You're able to, without givingtoo much away, you're able to
(18:17):
give us an insight of whatparticipants who are considering
the masterclass would be, wouldbe signing up for or you'd be
exploring.
Rob (18:31):
So what happens in the masterclass is, first of all,
everybody's already done the artof leadership, but they come
with imperfectly rememberedknowledge Inevitably, because
you know we shove them.
You know people say that wrongthing with the art of leadership
.
It seems six days, so it'sstretching out, but there's so
much.
So they come, and the firstpart of it is an opportunity for
(18:54):
us to work on clarifying someof the ideas that came through
the art of leadership anddeepening their understanding of
them.
And then what goes on fromthere is to delve more deeply
into some of the themes of theart of leadership, particularly
(19:15):
the relationships.
So how do you?
And coaching, how do you usethis coaching model, not just
one to one, but with your wholestaff?
How do you use an understandingof how groups work together to
change the culture and ethos ofyour school?
(19:35):
And this is much less, only athree day program, so it's
pretty fast.
But we make sure that there'senough discussion and exchanging
ideas so that, just as in theoriginal art of leadership,
people learn as much from thediscussions with each other as
they do from the physicalendeavors, and it culminates in
(20:00):
some quite profoundself-reflective activities,
whether or not I go to do tocreate what I want.
What does it say?
Because it's so easy in life tothink I have a picture out here
, a dream out here, of what Iwant to create Okay, and I'm
(20:23):
going to do my best to get otherpeople to help me create it.
And what's central is that youonly achieve that dream if you
change.
Okay, I used to be calledtransformational leadership.
These days that's not a popularword, but it's a good way of
understanding it.
If you want something to bedifferent, you have to be
(20:46):
different.
You have to persuade yourteachers to be different, and
then, when you're different, youknow as a candy.
You said, we must become thechange we want to see in the
world, and I think that'sabsolutely the case.
Drew (20:59):
You are the change.
Yes, you are the change Interms of in your opinion and it
is an opinion question there areso many changing trends in
educational leadership.
For our current leaders who areaspiring, what words of advice
would you give or forparticipants to, or people
(21:20):
listening to, even potentially,should I say, avoid?
Rob (21:27):
Well, look out for people selling magic bullets, because
there are not.
You know, what we do is not amagic bullet.
What we've tried to work on ispresenting people with well
researched, well groundedinformation that all입니다 is
supported by the psychology ofinternal control, knowing that
(21:49):
the only thing people can changeis what they can directly
influence.
Mostly that's just themselves.
So what we've got?
This really clear understandingof how people work and have
children work, and we build onthat some really quite
(22:14):
substantial ideas that haveproven by research to work.
And then if a leader roundstheir work in that, then they're
likely to be successful.
But because you know, I oftentalk about the political cycle,
(22:35):
you know politicians won'tchange today, not in three years
time, and making change in aschool does take some years.
So there are always peoplewanting to produce magic bullets
, so the politicians grab holdof it.
So maybe we could do that.
So think about how the languagewars have gone over the years.
(22:58):
You know the new fad came inand everybody followed the new
fad.
They took years to figure out.
The new fad didn't give enoughstructural understanding of
language to leave them well sureof what would be effective.
And then you know, structureliteracy is at the moment making
(23:23):
a comeback.
But the truth is, all thesethings work when they're, when
you, and what's central is thatyou only achieve that dream if
you change if you're a principalor educational leader looking
to enhance your skills, this isa place for you.
Drew (23:45):
This season, we'll be showcasing a wide range of
professional learningexperiences designed with your
success in mind.
We'll continue to focus on thevalues of wellbeing, leadership,
growth, as well as optimisingschool operations.
Curious to learn more about ourofferings?
You'll find our full catalogueon our website at
wwwnissapwalesppaorgau forwardslash catalogue.
(24:07):
Or you can easily book yournext professional learning
experience at wwwnissapwppaorgauforward slash.
Professional dash learning,dash calendar, dash bookings.
If you or your network isinterested in further
professional learning throughthe New South Wales Primary
(24:28):
Principles Association, reachout to me directly at
wwwnissapwppaorgau.
I look forward to hearing fromyou soon.
Hello and welcome to season two of the Principal
Learning Podcast.
If you're a principal oreducational leader looking to a
hand to your skills, this is aplace for you, so let's get into
it.
Let's embark on this learningjourney together.
So in this episode is the firstof a three-part series with Rob
Stone, who is one of theoriginal creators, designers and
(00:23):
facilitators of the New SouthWales Primary Principles
Association's Part of LeadershipProgram.
Rob is also a facilitator ofthe Art of Leadership Learning
Class.
This podcast is the first of athree-part series with Rob
Stones.
We have to learn properly,structure our own casting in a
serious way, as it allows us todetermine the vast amount of
(00:43):
knowledge and wisdom that itshares in our conversation.
In this first episode wediscuss broad spectrum of this
youth also education and how theArt of Leadership Program is so
critical in developing yourleadership skills.
Our second podcast will beguided through the practical
aspects of the Art of LeadershipProgram and how to implement
(01:05):
your leadership every day as aleader.
Our third podcast will bediscussing Rob's publications
that have all come as a resultof the Art of Leadership's
teachings.
It's a privilege to listen toRob's insights and I hope you
gain some very valuablepractical tips and suggestions,
(01:28):
as I put you, in your leadershipjourney.
So enjoy Rob Stone's Rob Stone'swelcome.
Great to thank you for beingavailable and talking to us
about.
Really we're going to be goinginto several directions.
(01:49):
Firstly is to talk about yourprofessional learning journey
and what led you to where youare today and what inspires you
to continue to work ineducational leadership.
Rob (02:03):
Well, I suppose my learning journey was important.
At the start of my career I gotan early leadership position
and was much good at it, gotbetter, became pretty much the
sort of leader who tried to dowhat people wanted to do and
(02:24):
what people loved him and thehierarchy taught him to do and
plotted on like that and thenwent to Bamagur for my first
principal shift.
So Bamagur was then thenorthern low school on the top
of the tip of the Cape YorkPeninsula, very isolated, 100
(02:47):
and something kids, so verysmall secondary school.
I had 100 and something kidswhen I first went there.
20 kids come to school thefirst morning.
The rest they do what they weredoing fishing and exploring the
(03:10):
bush and riding wild horses andall sorts of things.
So straight away I was no longerin the little bubble where in a
mainstream community theparents chased the kids to
school.
I had to do something differentVery early on.
Teachers who had been there fora while which is not many
(03:31):
because Bamagur turned over veryquickly, but teachers who had
been there for a while sharedwell, they will come to school
if they think it's worthwhile.
So what are we doing to attractthem to school In a way that
(03:52):
was seminal to everything thatdrove my leadership since then.
For me, since then, leadershiphas always been about what are
we doing to provide the best andmost attractive service for the
students of our school, for thekids, for the children?
Drew (04:14):
So how did you go with that that you've placed in this
isolated area?
You're very green and youunderplayed it, but you even
said I wasn't much good at it.
So I think that maybe anunderstatement, but where was
your mind in terms of thinkingthere?
Rob (04:34):
Well, obviously at the time I thought I was doing okay
and so that's a retrospectivejudgment that I wasn't much good
at it.
I mean, I was obviously doingwell enough to get a job as a
principal.
I'll be right on the extremesof the state, so I wasn't at the
top of anybody's list.
But I took some books with meand one of the books I took to
(04:57):
read because I knew I'd havesome time has spilt glasses.
Schools without failure, as Iwas talking about to my staff is
how do we turn this into aschool where there's no failure?
And will the kids come toschool if they feel successful?
And the answer to the last wasyes, the kids will come to
school if they think they'rebeing successful.
(05:17):
And could we turn Emega HighSchool there into that school?
Well, we tried.
My predecessor had made somesteps.
There's a huge.
There's right next to theschool was a farm that had been
long, long I don't think it wasever successful long long
(05:39):
overgrown by bush.
But he started off.
He had the idea that if wecleared the farm we could do a
lot of useful learning thatpeople could use on site in the
north of Peninsular.
So I continued that initiativeand started to look for all
(05:59):
sorts of other reasons.
We did an array of things we did.
We turned our art programaround so that a lot of the
traditional artifacts so it's acarving community, basically
most of the traditionalartifacts are carved we used all
the mediums that we could toallow the kids to do great
(06:21):
traditional artifacts in anon-traditional way.
We found that lots of studentsand their parents really enjoyed
that.
We did lots and lots of tweaksand very much we worked on the
relationship between studentsand teachers and so the way as
to how much the communityactually氣 it was how much, how
much the community was doingthat the students, my principles
as a local citizen that don'tthink we would be processing
this at our ownlam and usingdocumentation to contact and
look at how much of thisdistributed, what we citizens
(06:42):
might need, because yeahabsolutely so.
Glassa had three key messages,okay.
The first was develop goodrelationships with the students.
The second is beingnon-coercive.
(07:03):
If you bully the kids, theywon't come to school or they
won't do well.
And the third thing is still,have clear boundaries.
So the schools got boundaries.
If the kids think the schooldoesn't have boundaries or the
class teacher doesn't haveboundaries, then nothing
(07:24):
productive will happen, so thatthe process is not I am the
authority figure and I'll bullyyou to get what I want, but the
process is I'm someone who'sdeveloping a good relationship
with you.
You can trust me.
But there are boundaries tothis relationship.
But in this classroom, okay,and we're going to stick with it
(07:46):
of you and I and I can promiseyou that I'll.
You know, he picked up theunconditional positive regard
piece and if we show usunconditional positive regard,
then the students will test us.
(08:07):
But then, after they've testedus for a while, they'll figure
out that we do really care aboutthem, so they'll work with us.
So that was Glasses prettyclear messaging schools without
failure, as it has been throughall of the books about education
that he's written.
So we tried to do that and itwas fun.
You know we did things with thekids.
(08:30):
You know, the teachers wereplaying volleyball after school
and all the kids, heaps of kids,would come and join in and it
would be really nice to see kidscome back from the holidays.
You know, if they'dstraightaway come and give the
teachers a hug, you know, andsay I'm glad to be back, and so
(08:53):
on.
So it was a nice atmosphere tobe in.
But it was isolated and therewere some things you couldn't
control.
So if there was a funeral or atombstone opening, so after a
funeral they make the tombstoneand then they open the tombstone
so that it's like the openingof a public building, so both
(09:17):
those things are holidays.
Okay, funeral is a holiday,tombstone opening is a holiday.
If there's a tombstone openingin a distant community or out on
one of the islands, all thefamilies go.
So all of a sudden we go backto 10 kids at school again.
You just have to live with therhythms of that.
Then when they're back, theycome to school and we do some
(09:39):
good work.
Drew (09:44):
Yeah.
Rob (09:46):
Yeah, that's right.
But I guess the purpose of thatlong story is to say like it's
changing what you can controland what you can't control.
Yeah, Taking the boxes forleading a school.
I'm now someone who works withhis staff to try and provide the
(10:06):
best possible service for thestudent community that we serve.
So I took that into my otherprincipalships and it's very
much a part of the workshopprograms that I teach and the
executive coaching I do thetraditional ways of doing things
(10:28):
, running everything as if it'sa hierarchy that Los Tills, the
deputies want to do and thedeputies tell the teachers what
to do and everybody kind of rubsalong even if nobody's terribly
happy about it.
It's never going to work withmy way of thinking about
leadership.
So when I'm running aleadership workshop I have to
present it as a way ofconnecting so strongly with your
(10:51):
teaching staff andunderstanding you kids and your
teachers so well that we'reinfluencing them, we're getting
the best out of them.
Drew (11:11):
Yeah, so it's really understanding your context and
relating that knowledge you haveinto that context, importantly
underpin by classes, theoriesand also, but more importantly,
is ensuring there's trust andconnection prior to any learning
(11:32):
taking, a high quality learningtaking place.
Rob (11:38):
Yes, because whatever you read in the area of education
and interpersonal relationships,you get the same message.
Glass is not the only internalcontrol psychology theorists.
There are heaps and heaps ofothers Edward DC and his
organization, theself-determination theoryorg and
(12:01):
go to his website.
He's.
Glass wasn't a researcher, butDC's researched all this stuff.
Now, what's the effect ofcoercion on kids?
What's the effect of rewards onkids?
What's the effect ofthreatening to kids?
What's the effect of goodrelationships with young people?
And the theoretical frameworkon which his work is based is
(12:27):
very strong now, and in the artof leadership, for example, we
gather all of that through thetheoretical framework to try to
convince leaders who attend theart of leadership that their
main job is to connect witheverybody in their community.
Now we take that further in theart of leadership masterclass
(12:49):
because it's called I think wecall it something like vibrant
leadership for connectedcommunities.
It's about taking that evenfurther and making sure that
everybody's connected, not justwith each other, but with the
key ideas that the school isoperating on, so that nobody's
asking at any time why we'redoing this.
(13:10):
They know what we're doing.
Drew (13:15):
Well, you did go.
We will go to the art ofleadership, Rob, with the work
that you have established andthere's a history with the New
South Wales Primary PrinciplesAssociation.
I believe you can correct me ifI'm wrong here.
There are over 61 programs heldsince 2013.
The art of leadership.
(13:36):
So, for a program such a long,rich history, are you able to
share some of the successstories or outcomes that have
resulted from your teaching?
Rob (13:50):
Well, I think that it's practical.
I mean there's theoryunderpinning everything in it,
but there's a lot of skillbuilding and a lot of ways of
thinking practically about as aprincipal, what do you do with
people, how do you bring themall together?
(14:15):
Because, understandably,systems you know an education
system.
We didn't teach in the privateCatholic system, but I have done
some programs there and it'sthe same.
They have a system and thesystem tells them to do things
and the system is aboutschooling, not necessarily about
(14:36):
education.
I'm not critical of it.
It couldn't possibly bedifferent from how it is.
The only thing that can make adifference is leaders in the
school.
But they can make a differencebecause they can shift.
They can either use theirposition power horticratically
(14:56):
to make things happen, or theycan use their inspiration and
personal influence to persuadepeople to go along with them and
to adopt the measures that theyadvocate for.
The difference is engagementand commitment.
You can have a school staff whoare strongly engaged with the
(15:19):
purpose of the school, whoabsolutely understand the
purpose of what they're alltrying to do together.
You can have a group of peoplewho learn together, who are
willing to dig in together tothe details and learn from each
(15:39):
other.
Some teachers haveextraordinary success with a
class or a group of students.
Other people want to know whatthey're doing.
You can set up that context oryou can set up the context where
everybody just has to plotthrough the curriculum, do their
best with their own class andwhere Every now and again there
(16:02):
are a lot of changes ofdirection because something has
changed out hiding the school inthe context, or they've got a
new instruction from theDepartment of Education or
something.
So I mean, inevitably schoolsare going to get new instruction
from the Department ofEducation, but because systems
really want what schools want,which is the kids to do well and
(16:25):
the teachers to be engaged andcommitted, you just have to
tweak whatever the message isand still keep doing the same
thing.
In all my career, nobody evertold me, rob, you're getting too
much enthusiasm and commitmentfrom your teachers or your
teachers Teachers have got toogood a relationship with the
students.
(16:45):
That's not going to happen.
Those things are supported butthey can't be imposed from the
outside.
So the bureaucracy, if you like, does its best to think about
what might improve things, butbecause they're not in the
school, they can't do it.
So neither people in the schoolcan do it.
So we try to get that messageacross fairly strongly in the
(17:08):
art of leadership and it'sgratifying that quite a few
experienced principals have saidto Judy or I after the six days
of the art of leadership youknow I've been a principal for a
long time Ten years, sometimes20 years and now I suddenly
understand what my job really isand that's gratifying to hear
(17:28):
that kind of thing.
Drew (17:33):
It's that light bulb moment and as a participant
myself, I can attest to thatchanging light bulb things that
do come through the course.
It's that reflection ofpractice but giving the time to
actually explore and delve intoand it's a real key to the
success of the work, of thestructure, of having a phase one
(17:55):
and then having a consolidationof the phase two.
Yeah, yeah, it's remarkable interms of just it's our key.
I would say well, it is, it'sour crown jewel to the
professional learning suite.
So you alluded to themasterclass.
You're able to, without givingtoo much away, you're able to
(18:17):
give us an insight of whatparticipants who are considering
the masterclass would be, wouldbe signing up for or you'd be
exploring.
Rob (18:31):
So what happens in the masterclass is, first of all,
everybody's already done the artof leadership, but they come
with imperfectly rememberedknowledge Inevitably, because
you know we shove them.
You know people say that wrongthing with the art of leadership
.
It seems six days, so it'sstretching out, but there's so
much.
So they come, and the firstpart of it is an opportunity for
(18:54):
us to work on clarifying someof the ideas that came through
the art of leadership anddeepening their understanding of
them.
And then what goes on fromthere is to delve more deeply
into some of the themes of theart of leadership, particularly
(19:15):
the relationships.
So how do you?
And coaching, how do you usethis coaching model, not just
one to one, but with your wholestaff?
How do you use an understandingof how groups work together to
change the culture and ethos ofyour school?
(19:35):
And this is much less, only athree day program, so it's
pretty fast.
But we make sure that there'senough discussion and exchanging
ideas so that, just as in theoriginal art of leadership,
people learn as much from thediscussions with each other as
they do from the physicalendeavors, and it culminates in
(20:00):
some quite profoundself-reflective activities,
whether or not I go to do tocreate what I want.
What does it say?
Because it's so easy in life tothink I have a picture out here
, a dream out here, of what Iwant to create Okay, and I'm
(20:23):
going to do my best to get otherpeople to help me create it.
And what's central is that youonly achieve that dream if you
change.
Okay, I used to be calledtransformational leadership.
These days that's not a popularword, but it's a good way of
understanding it.
If you want something to bedifferent, you have to be
(20:46):
different.
You have to persuade yourteachers to be different, and
then, when you're different, youknow as a candy.
You said, we must become thechange we want to see in the
world, and I think that'sabsolutely the case.
Drew (20:59):
You are the change.
Yes, you are the change Interms of in your opinion and it
is an opinion question there areso many changing trends in
educational leadership.
For our current leaders who areaspiring, what words of advice
would you give or forparticipants to, or people
(21:20):
listening to, even potentially,should I say, avoid?
Rob (21:27):
Well, look out for people selling magic bullets, because
there are not.
You know, what we do is not amagic bullet.
What we've tried to work on ispresenting people with well
researched, well groundedinformation that all입니다 is
supported by the psychology ofinternal control, knowing that
(21:49):
the only thing people can changeis what they can directly
influence.
Mostly that's just themselves.
So what we've got?
This really clear understandingof how people work and have
children work, and we build onthat some really quite
(22:14):
substantial ideas that haveproven by research to work.
And then if a leader roundstheir work in that, then they're
likely to be successful.
But because you know, I oftentalk about the political cycle,
(22:35):
you know politicians won'tchange today, not in three years
time, and making change in aschool does take some years.
So there are always peoplewanting to produce magic bullets
, so the politicians grab holdof it.
So maybe we could do that.
So think about how the languagewars have gone over the years.
(22:58):
You know the new fad came inand everybody followed the new
fad.
They took years to figure out.
The new fad didn't give enoughstructural understanding of
language to leave them well sureof what would be effective.
And then you know, structureliteracy is at the moment making
(23:23):
a comeback.
But the truth is, all thesethings work when they're, when
you, and what's central is thatyou only achieve that dream if
you change if you're a principalor educational leader looking
to enhance your skills, this isa place for you.
Drew (23:45):
This season, we'll be showcasing a wide range of
professional learningexperiences designed with your
success in mind.
We'll continue to focus on thevalues of wellbeing, leadership,
growth, as well as optimisingschool operations.
Curious to learn more about ourofferings?
You'll find our full catalogueon our website at
wwwnissapwalesppaorgau forwardslash catalogue.
(24:07):
Or you can easily book yournext professional learning
experience at wwwnissapwppaorgauforward slash.
Professional dash learning,dash calendar, dash bookings.
If you or your network isinterested in further
professional learning throughthe New South Wales Primary
(24:28):
Principles Association, reachout to me directly at
wwwnissapwppaorgau.
I look forward to hearing fromyou soon.
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