October 9, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of the NSWPPA Professional Learnings: Leading with Data series, host Drew Janetzki reconnects with psychologist and author Michael Hawton, Director of Parentshop, to explore the evolution of The Anxiety Project.
Together they unpack how this whole-school initiative—now reaching more than 113 schools and 47,000 students—is transforming the way teachers, parents and children understand and respond to anxiety.
Michael explains why resilience is learned through challenge, not avoidance, and how small, consistent language shifts in classrooms are changing culture and confidence across school communities.
Featuring insights from the 2025 Student Wellbeing Seminar with Professor Patrick McGorry and Professor Terry Laidler, this episode shows why early intervention, collective practice and data-driven leadership are key to addressing Australia’s youth mental health crisis.
A child refuses school, melts down, and gets a day at home with a device—short-term relief, long-term cost. We unpack how that accommodation cycle takes hold and share a practical, lay-led alternative that’s helping schools replace avoidance with agency.
Psychologist and author Michael Hawton traces The Anxiety Project’s journey from a principal survey to a statewide culture shift built on shared language, quick scripts, and early intervention.
We explore CBT-informed tools teachers can use in real time—how to “strike while the iron is hot” when a student catastrophises, and how to “strike while the iron is cold” through short lessons on brains, bodies, and self-talk. You’ll hear why “my amygdala threw a grenade” has become a powerful classroom phrase, how consistent staff language boosts engagement, and why fewer unhelpful accommodations can actually grow resilience.
Michael connects the dots with Professor McGorry’s national findings on youth mental health, showing how unattended childhood anxiety can escalate in adolescence—and how schools can bend that curve without turning teachers into therapists.
We also map a clear implementation pathway: align leadership, appoint a hands-on coach, train staff, teach students, and involve parents in non-blaming, tool-focused sessions. Along the way, we discuss phones and social media as amplifiers rather than root causes, and highlight measurable reductions in anxiety when entire school teams commit to the work.
If you’re a principal, teacher or parent looking for a clear, practical model to help kids stay in the learning struggle—take a breath, grab the language, and start small.
If this conversation resonates, subscribe, share with a colleague, and let us know which strategy you’ll try first.
Learn more about The Anxiety Project and the research shaping this episode:
- NSWPPA – The Anxiety Project:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/the-anxiety-project - Parentshop (Michael Hawton):
https://www.parentshop.com.au - Hilton Education Consulting (2023–2025):
Independent evaluation of The Anxiety Project outcomes in NSW schools - Australian Mental Health Commission (2024):
National Report Card 2024
PDF L
Links and References:
To view our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning
To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Drew Janetzki (00:01):
Okay, welcome back to Professional Learnings,
the New South Wales PPAEducational Leadership Podcast.
I'm your host, Drew Janetsky,and today we're continuing with
leading our data series of theAnxiety Project.
And we're revisiting thatimportant project, as I said,
the Anxiety Project.
Joining me once again ispsychologist and author Michael
(00:23):
Horton, Director of Parent Shop.
Michael, it's great to have youback.
Michael Hawton (00:28):
It's great to be back, Drew.
Drew Janetzki (00:30):
Yeah, feels like it's been full circle, and I'm
really intrigued to see theevolution of the anxiety project
and where to next in ourconversation today.
Yeah, it certainly has evolveda lot over the last three, four
years.
Absolutely.
And that's credit to yourself,the team, and also the work that
(00:54):
is coming through, and andwe'll unpack that today in terms
of the real impact that theanxiety project has had and the
success stories and real datastories, Michael, that show the
impact, show the I guess thehypotheses, hypotheses to where
(01:14):
it is now, from where where thatall that planning is to 2025.
Michael, before we get intotoday's conversations, let's
have a listen to an extract fromthe recent Student Well-being
forum where you explain thecycle of accommodation.
Principal from t (01:34):
Accommodations are something that I feel is
becoming a big deal in oursociety.
Sometimes they can hinder a lotmore than they help.
Michael Hawton (01:43):
Tom has a bad day at school.
Next day, Tom doesn't want togo to school.
Jane says, You've got to go.
Tom catastrophizes, creates ascene.
Jane says, okay, you can stayhome.
Tom stays at home, and Tomplays on his device all day.
Is this happening in a schoolnear you?
Just asking.
No, it's not just parents.
(02:05):
It's also professionals likemyself, sometimes giving you an
excuse letter for why Lucy can'tgo on camp tomorrow.
Or an OT who might be jumpingin and saying, Oh, you don't
want to stress them out toomuch.
Kids need experience of facingnormal life challenges.
Normal life challenges aregoing to school, going to camp.
Most parents know, you knowwhat, it's probably better that
(02:27):
he goes to school.
But they're letting it, they'regetting tripped up by their
child's anxiousness.
And this is calledaccommodation.
Drew Janetzki (02:35):
So, Michael, for those listening who are new to
the Anxiety Project, can youremind us of how it began and
what it is all about?
Michael Hawton (02:44):
Well, um, back in 2019, Drew, the Australian
Primary Principles Associationput out a survey back then
trying to understand the levelof mental health problems they
could see in kids in primaryschool.
And um what they came up withwere some kind of startling
results with about 700, or thenclose to close enough to 700 of
(03:06):
the 7,000 respondents in in thesurvey, were so that's a pretty
good sample, 10%.
Um, were saying that we've gotkids, children who are anxious,
they're more anxious than ageneration ago.
And then the upshot of that wasabout 90% of the school
leaders, many of whom haddecades of experience, were
(03:27):
saying that they actually didn'thave the resources to to do
much about it, or they were pooron resources to be able to
address um those anxietyproblems.
Drew Janetzki (03:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So a big why behind that.
And obviously, then there's theconnection to the New South
Wales Primary PrinciplesAssociation, which saw there was
this huge problem.
Came to you, came to yourorganization.
Tell us about the workingthrough of that to become now
(04:00):
the anxiety project.
Michael Hawton (04:03):
Well, I mean, my background, I work in community
health uh as a psychologist,uh, but also I've written a
couple of books.
My read most recent book'scalled The Anxiety Coach.
And it's helping uh parents, ifyou like, how to deal with the
anxiety they might be seeing intheir child.
Now, in schools, what schoolstend to see is children who are
(04:24):
reluctant or avoidant.
Uh, where something lookschallenging for a child, often,
even if it's an ambiguoussituation, they'll tend to be
reluctant or back off.
Um, and so a lot, a large partof this project has really been
about how do we help, how do weequip children in those kind of
micro moments where they mightbe avoiding or they might be
(04:48):
catastrophizing.
How do we help them to engagewith challenges?
Because that's the most obviousway that you'll see anxiousness
in children, young people, isthat they won't um engage as
much in the challenge.
And so part of the part of theissue is about what the adults
around the child can do tofacilitate and guide and
(05:12):
scaffold the child to get betterat meeting those challenges.
Drew Janetzki (05:17):
And so unpacking that further as part of the
project, teaching the adults, soto speak, of how to deal with
with children's discomfort.
Michael Hawton (05:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But if you think about it, thethe the uh cognitive behavioral
therapy has come a long way inthe last 30 years, for example.
Certainly when I was atuniversity back in the 80s,
there was a lot of work beingdone about how do you transpose
those kind of strategies intokind of an early intervention um
uh emphasis.
And so it's come a long waynow.
(05:47):
So you get books like comingout like Parent Led CBT, is one
of the books that I refer toquite a lot.
Because the inference there isthat if you train up lay people
to do some of the skills, andand we're not training them up
to be psychologists, so so letme be clear there.
But what we are doing is we'resaying we if we use some of the
skills that psychologists usewhen they're helping kids with
(06:09):
their anxiousness, then thatwill help the teachers, one,
feel more confident in theirability to manage uh a kind of a
mini crisis moment where thechild is avoiding or the child
isn't participating as much asyou would like them to.
I think that that what'shappened in more recent times is
that we've been reluctant tomake those challenges, if you
(06:31):
like, because we don't want tomake their anxiety worse.
And, you know, we don't want tobe accused of you know, in any
way upsetting the child, butthere's some real goal to be had
in helping kids to get betterat meeting challenges.
And ironically, if they went tosee the psychologist, um,
that's exactly what he or shewould do.
They would challenge the youngperson, challenge the child to
(06:55):
meet challenges where they mightbe avoiding or where they might
be catastrophizing or lettingtheir fear overcome them.
So yeah, there's there's someterrific things that I call it a
lay-led, a broad-based lay-ledmodel, where if you train up the
the teachers, for example, toget better at having those um
(07:16):
incidental moments, they'realready having these
conversations, as you know.
But the question is, how can wehelp them get better in those
kind of micro moments tofacilitate and guide the child
um to meet those challenges?
And then the more experiencesthey have like that, the more it
is that they'll get confidencein meeting challenges over time.
Drew Janetzki (07:38):
Yeah, that's it's just wondering how we got
to that point in in societywhere we're trying to be
supportive and encouraging to sto young people and obviously
try to support themunderstanding anxiety is an
issue, but in terms of how tohow to tackle that, whether
(07:59):
that's the right word, or how toovercome that, is it's a real
challenge for educators, forleaders of schools, for society,
for for adults, and obviouslyparents as well, who who want
the best for their kids yet arenavigating through the maze.
(08:21):
What what's your advice there,Michael?
Do you think we've as societyto I heard to just sit with
discomfort?
Michael Hawton (08:32):
Well, I think that's true that that parents uh
in particular, but alsoteachers, get tripped up by the
child's distress.
Um, but we want to help themget better at uh managing their
distress because it's in thestruggle, if you like, where
they're going to get strongerpsychologically, guess to get
stronger.
I mean, there's an old sayingin this area: prepare the child
(08:54):
for the road, not the road forthe child.
And ultimately, what that meansis that if we're going to help
them to get stronger, better,more able to deal with life's
vicissitudes and challenges,then we need to give them
practice along the way.
And that will require any of usadults to not always jump in
and solve the problem for them,but rather to guide them to
(09:18):
scaffold their ability toprovide them with opportunities
where they can kind of comegood.
And it's in those experiences,in those interactions, that
children are going to getbetter, you see.
Because it's kind of likethere's an, you know, if you
look at this, it some peoplethink anxiety is kind of like a
sore tooth.
It's kind of like there'ssomething wrong with their mind.
(09:38):
If you just fix their mindsomehow, but often more more
often than not, it's it'sactually there's nothing wrong
with their mind, but it's thenature of the interactions that
the child has with his or herenvironment that will see the
anxiety either get worse or uhget better.
And so if we change theinteractions between the adults
(09:59):
and the child, that's a good uhbasis to think, okay, how can we
make a difference here?
And I I think, Drew, like we'vetalked about this before, but I
think what we're seeing inteachers is that once they the
penny drops and they go, Hey,you know what?
I can I can manage a bit of thechild's discomfort because I've
got a longer game here.
(10:20):
The longer game I'm I'm kind ofplaying is how do I help this
child, what's in his or her bestinterest in this moment, even
if it's a bit uncomfortable forthem.
And I think once teachers knowthat by guiding them,
scaffolding their thinking andhelping them to use skills that
they would teach, they would betaught if they went to see the
(10:41):
psychologist, for example, howto problem solve, how to
reframe, how to calm theirbodies down, all of those kinds
of things.
It's been a very interestingride for teachers, I think,
because I think what we've seenis a growth in confidence in
teachers who are themselvesthinking, actually, I can use
some of these skills from my ownchildren.
You know, like I've heardteachers say to me, you know
(11:03):
what, I've read your book andI've also um set seen what we've
done at school, and I'm usingsome of this for my own kids.
Drew Janetzki (11:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
And we've seen that results.
And let's go to that now,Michael.
We've it's now in its fourthyear intake.
What have what have we learnedso far from the anxiety project?
What what's some of the key keymoments that have curiosity
have surprised you, but alsoreaffirmed the mission of the
(11:33):
anxiety project?
Michael Hawton (11:35):
Well, I think the couple of things that have
surprised us as the steeringcommittee have been kind of
iterating it and making itbetter and better each year.
But I think the thing thatstruck us is the language
changes around the school.
So once kids learn how to calmtheir bodies down, they learn
that their amygdala can throwhand grenades, for example, and
(11:56):
and they're better able to kindof have a sense of I can be the
boss of my anxiousness, then thelanguage changes, the culture
changes around the school.
And that's a terrific thing tosee.
And I think the other thingthat struck us is the level of
enthusiasm in in uh teachers uhfor the project, but also their
sense of um satisfaction withtheir work rises.
(12:21):
I think that's a fair thing tosay.
I think what we're seeing isteachers who are saying, you
know what, I can make areasonably big difference here
to the mental health of my ofthe young people in my care.
And um, I'm seeing that playout before me every day with
kids.
And this comes back in thequalitative research that's
being done as well.
Teachers saying to theresearchers, for example, I feel
(12:45):
like I've got something to gowith here that's making a very
big difference in my classroom.
I've got kids who are moreengaged, kids who are more
willing to have a go.
And that's one of the themes ofof the anxiety project is how
do we help kids to have a go, tomeet challenges, to not tap out
straight away, that kind ofthing.
So if you think to yourself,well, what are the
(13:06):
manifestations of this in the inthe school?
It's definitely a change oflanguage.
It's definitely you've gotteachers who feel more confident
to be able to have thosescaffolding, guiding kind of
conversations with kids.
And I think look, we're justdoing the research on this now,
but anecdotally, we know thatteachers' levels of anxiousness
is also decreasing.
(13:28):
That's got to be good news forthe profession.
Drew Janetzki (13:31):
So Well, that's a good news story.
And and if I segue into moregood news stories, you recently
had the well-being seminar inSydney.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that?
Or let's listen to an extractof that from that series now.
Professor Patrick Magory.
Professor Patrick McGorry (13:52):
This is a youth mental health crisis
that we're dealing with.
Its roots are in childhood, butthe kind of headwinds and and
the and the and the mega trendsthat are making it worse are
operating in this veryvulnerable period between
puberty and the mid-20s.
The Surgeon General in the US,very serious dude.
He said the challenges today'sgeneration of young people face
are unprecedented and uniquelyhard to navigate, and the effect
(14:16):
these challenges have had ontheir mental health is
devastating.
The Australian data is reallyclear, and that showed a jump
from 26% in the 16 to 24 agegroup to 39% over a 15-year
period, which is huge.
The jump is much higher inyoung women than in young men,
and that's a nasty combinationof anxiety, depression,
self-harm, and even eatingdisorders.
(14:38):
The health system's designedfor the over 50s and also little
kids.
We've got to look after theyoung people in the meantime.
That's where our focus hasbeen.
So and they need differentsystems of care from what
traditional health care, mentalhealth care has provided.
Drew Janetzki (14:51):
What do you what what was your take from that
piece from Professor PatrickMcGorrie?
Michael Hawton (14:57):
Look, Patrick has uh only just released a
fairly large and significantpiece of work in The Lancet,
which is the British MedicalJournal, about young people in
Australia.
And um he said a few things onthe day that are really worth uh
identifying.
Uh he said anxiety unattendedto will tend to get worse over
(15:18):
time.
Meaning, if you don't attend toit when they're in primary
school, by the time they're inearly high school, it'll get
worse.
And if by the time they're inmiddle adolescents and late
adolescents, it will tend to getworse.
So that's one thing that'sreally worth remembering.
The other thing he said on theday was that anxious behavior in
children is often a gateway tolater, more difficult
(15:41):
psychological um illness.
Uh and what he means by agateway, of course, is that kids
who are psychologically unableto manage the stress that comes
in at them are going to be in amore tricky situation than ones
who have learnt how to deal withthe stress that comes in at
(16:01):
them, so to speak.
Um but he is also saying thatthose later, more serious
ailments like psychosis andsuicidality and depression, that
anxiety sits behind that.
So, what I think is wonderfulabout what the New South Wales
Primary Principles Associationhas done has worked been to work
with us to be able to say,okay, we can make a difference
(16:23):
at an early intervention level.
And it's important because thepsychiatric illnesses that come
later on usually are fed byearly onset anxious behaviour.
Now, some of the anxiety isnormal and and just is part of
some kids' temperament and theirgenes.
(16:43):
But we know that a fair bit ofthat is learn in the
interactions that the child haswith his or her environment.
And so if we change thoseinteractions, the simple
hypothesis is that if we changethe interactions, we can address
the anxiety over time.
Drew Janetzki (17:01):
Yeah, yeah, very powerful indeed.
And it shows independently whatI've heard is obviously it's
arm's length of research, butyou've got Professor Patrick
McGrawy now looking at the work,and he's really analyzed the
work and can see the value ofthe anxiety project.
Michael Hawton (17:25):
Well, I think so.
I mean, we've we've approachedOrigin to do some of the um
later research just recently.
And so I think I'm hoping thatthey'll pick it up on the back
of what Hilton EducationalResearch has already done.
But clearly what we need is tochange the model, Drew, because
we've got, at the moment, we'vegot such a a big problem with uh
(17:47):
anxiety in young people, as Isaid, on that trajectory.
We've now got 32%.
Nearly one in three are youngpeople who've got an anxiety
disorder.
So it's not normal anxiousness.
We're talking about uh socialphobia, generalized anxiety
disorder, about one in three inthat 16 to 24-year-old age
group.
And that's what Patrick'sresearch picked up.
(18:08):
So we've got a large problem,which there's no getting around
it.
I mean I'm I'm usually one foraccuracy.
Uh, and and what I would say toyou is that even being accurate
at 32%, this is Magorrie'swork, uh, that's a fit that's a
lot of teenagers who areanxious, but it starts back
here, you see.
And if if only we can uh get umuh intervene at that early
(18:33):
level, we'll make a hugedifference.
And that's what the highschools are telling me as well.
We have another project we runin high schools, but they're
saying that a lot of theanxiousness is coming into high
schools, and they're not blamingprimary schools, but they're
just saying it's coming from theprimary school from the middle
childhood um place where overtime the anxiety tends to get
worse over time.
Drew Janetzki (18:56):
And I know you follow, and I as I I do as well,
the work of Jonathan Hayes andand on screen, these things.
The mobile phone seems to be uhwhat's your comments on the
mobile phone and and hate's workon the contributing factor to
anxiety?
Because those stats that you'vejust shared, they're pretty
(19:17):
frightening.
Michael Hawton (19:18):
Well, they're not good.
We need a different model fordealing with it.
And and I I uh you know, when Italk about broad-based lay-led,
I'm I'm saying that all theadults in the community should
be able to do some things orsome things to uh to decrease
the levels of anxiousness.
And I think that's the beautyof the anxiety project.
(19:40):
We're talking about a culturalchange.
A bit of my background, I usedto work for for UNICEF uh in
Vietnam.
And I've anyway, the the upshotof that is that population
change projects rely on the keystakeholders, and the key
stakeholders in this case arethe significant adults.
So, how can we quick we can howcan we make that happen?
(20:00):
Just circling back to uh thephone issue though.
I d I don't think it's phonesby themselves.
I think even before the adventof phones, child mental health
was problematic back in the2008, 9, 10s, and um I think so.
What we've seen over time is uhreductions in child mental
(20:21):
health.
I'm sure that it's amplified itfor sure.
Phones have amplified theproblem.
And I'm and and I guess thequestion, as everybody's asking
now, is should we be allowingchildren, particularly under 13,
to have a phone and be exposedto pretty much adult material in
terms of the socialinteractions and the levels of
(20:44):
um uh antagonism and if youlike, um outrage sometimes that
you see on social media.
I think kids can't shieldthemselves because they haven't
got there yet the developmentalego strength and they haven't
got the wherewithal to push itaway, so to speak, if they don't
like it.
So I think there are problemswith that for sure.
I I think that's it, we've gota bigger issue at hand.
(21:06):
If we have such large numbersthat are developing anxiety
disorders over time, we need tothink outside the square.
And what I mean by that is thatwe need to say, okay, look,
there's not enough professionalsto go around.
They clearly are not.
Um, and and so we're not gonnareinvent those professionals
overnight, if you like.
(21:26):
So we've got to find a way tohelp children um in those kind
of adult to child conversations,which is where they're gonna
happen.
Teaching them, uh it, I mean,some of the people in this area
are like the same Omar, he talksabout striking while the iron's
hot and striking while theiron's cold.
Now, striking while the iron'shot, what he means is that we
(21:46):
can help kids in theinteractions at the moment
they're avoiding or at themoment they're catastrophizing.
So, teachers in the training wedo for the anxiety project, we
show teachers how to respondusing a bit of a script.
Say this first, do this second,say this third, you know, that
kind of thing.
So that works.
Um, the other thing is strikethem while the iron is cold.
(22:10):
And what that means is you canteach kids about their brain and
their mind offline.
And once they learn thelanguage, like even the word
amygdala is probably the hardestword that we've even teach.
Once kids learn about theiramygdala, they get to talk to
their amygdala and say, calmdown.
It's okay, I'll be fine, youknow?
And they learn that idea that Ican actually be the boss of my
(22:31):
amygdala, I can be the boss ofmy fear, I can be the boss of my
anxiety.
And being able to cross thatRubicon, so to speak, in them
that they have some char theycan take charge of some of their
anxiousness and they canself-regulate.
Now, this ability toself-regulate, as you know, is
developmentally uh somethingthat kids get better at uh uh
(22:53):
over time.
But we can guide them uh andfacilitate that ability, that
self-regulatory ability over aperiod of time.
And as a result of that, we'llhave less anxious kids over
time.
Drew Janetzki (23:07):
Yeah, terrific.
And I love that optimism andalso the fact we're educating
kids and students and the wholepopulation about how the brain
actually works and how, as yousaid, to control the enigmala.
I almost got it right there,Michael, the enigmula and how
(23:27):
that works and how we cancontrol that as such.
We are the boss of our ownbrain, we are the boss of how we
can respond to this, but Ican't think of another time when
we've been explicitly shownthis in a primary school, high
school setting.
Michael Hawton (23:53):
Well, I I think it's because we haven't had very
good models for using cognitivebehavioral therapy as an early
intervention uh set of tools.
Um up to only at the least last10 years or so, I'd say it's
only been since that you've gotbooks like this coming out,
which is you know, parent-ledCBT for child anxiety.
(24:15):
It's only recently that thesekinds of ideas kind of hit the
the airwaves.
And I think we've got bet we'vegot better over time in knowing
that we can teach kids what thepsychologist would teach them
if they went to see him or heruh in a therapy session in the
context of their school days.
(24:35):
And I think that's why I thinkthere's teachers who are like
what's really struck us, Drew,is the number, the level of
teachers who are quiteenthusiastic about what they're
doing.
Because I I g I think it givesthem a real sense of motivation.
You know, it's not like theyweren't having these
conversations before.
They absolutely were.
But what we've I think what theAnxiety Project has done is
(24:58):
kind of filled up their kid bagwith ideas about how to hold
conversations so that kids don'ttap out immediately.
Because I think it's becomingmore obvious to me, particularly
in the high school work that wedo, that you've got kids who
are tapping out.
They're leaving class, forexample, or they're not going to
school, or they're they're notjoining in.
(25:20):
And I think what we're seeingat a kind of vastly at a kind of
population level is lots ofkids who are not sure how to m
manage the struggle withinthemselves to stay in, to not
tap out, to have a go, all ofall of those things.
Drew Janetzki (25:37):
And we heard at the well-being, going back to
the well-being seminar thisyear, what were the stand there
were some real standout schoolsthat we saw.
Was there anything that came tomind?
I I was fortunate enough to bethere, as well as you.
What would were there anyschools that stood out for you
that we could hear from now?
Michael Hawton (25:58):
Well, I think you'd we probably have to go
back to those schools and uh askthem what how it worked and why
it worked.
But clearly there were somevery big drops over 12 months in
the levels of child anxiety.
And um we know that um a numberof those schools.
Can I name them, Drew?
Just I'm not sure.
Absolutely.
No, go for it.
(26:19):
You can absolutely.
Oh, Claremont Meadows, um,William Dean, um, um Angalow
Public School, all of this,those schools showed significant
decreases in the levels ofanxiousness in kids.
And you've got to hand it tothem.
That's that's because thepopulation of teachers, the
principal and the population ofteachers within those schools
(26:41):
applied themselves to, if youlike, the large-scale therapy
model.
You know, they said we're gonnatry and make a difference to
children's anxiousness in ourschool.
And it it paid off because over12 months, what they did is
apply themselves to asustainable model, and that
sustainable implementation, ifyou like, worked because they
(27:03):
committed themselves to doingsomething about child anxiety in
their schools.
Uh, and that's only gonnabenefit those kids, uh,
obviously, as they move intolater into high schools.
I think we've got not to put Idon't want to put too much
emphasis on this, Drew, but Ithink we've got a an opportunity
with the anxiety project tomake a difference to a whole
(27:25):
generation of kids.
I absolutely think that.
I I don't think I'm overstatingit, because I think it is it is
uh a problem that needsdefinitely needs addressing.
I think we've got a wholegeneration of kids who are
becoming more anxious over time.
Can we change the circumstancesaround them to to help them to
be less anxious?
I think we've got the proofthat you can.
Drew Janetzki (27:47):
Yeah, very powerful.
And we'll go to those clips nowto have a listen to the impact
from the well-being seminar.
Michael Hawton (27:57):
Uh I think uh Carmen Betsy is very powerful.
Um, you know, when she talksabout throwing the hand grenade.
Executive from the NSW Stud (28:04):
One of our students was having a
bit of a moment and he said, Ihad my chair, and then my friend
came over, he thought it washis chair, and it resulted in
him yelling, screaming.
He stormed out of the classroomfrom that.
Do you think your reactionmatched the event?
And he goes, Oh, no way.
My amygdala threw a grenade.
Bow amygdala.
Bit like a lizard brain,they're always scared of
(28:26):
everything.
And he said, Well, I could justtalk to my amygdala, tell it to
calm down.
It's not in danger, we're okay.
He was able to explain whathappened, how he felt, in a way
that made sense to both of us.
When he went back to theclassroom and he was explaining
to his teacher and his friendabout the grenade getting thrown
and all the rest of it, they'rethere going, Yeah, right, I get
(28:48):
it, I get it.
Drew Janetzki (28:50):
Okay, Michael, how powerful was just reflecting
on that?
How powerful was that thatwe've just heard?
Michael Hawton (28:58):
I think it's very powerful.
I think the stories around whatthe children can do uh and what
they've um being able toreflect on, and the teachers
being able to say, Oh, I can seethis child taking control of
himself.
I can see this child uh ismanaging their um amygdala or
managing their anxiety and it'splaying out before my eyes, you
(29:21):
know, in the school environment.
I think that's just a wonderfulthing.
Drew Janetzki (29:25):
Absolutely, Michael.
Now let's listen to Tim Lloyd,principal of Flumpton High
School from the high schoolperspective.
Tim Lloyd (29:33):
Principal
hear, you do link to that notionof building resilience, then
our kids become more successful.
Adjustments are deliberatestrategies that lead to
increased function throughenabling the child to overcome
situations that were previouslypreventing success.
The more accommodations wehave, the greater challenge.
(29:56):
If you're trying to accommodate1,200 kids, we're not going to
be successful.
So everything is built foreverybody.
It's consistent in that,irrespective of what classroom
you walk into in the morning,it's the same as the one across
the corridor and across theother side of the school.
Michael Hawton (30:13):
And I think the other thing that's come up,
Drew, is that parents aregetting involved as well.
So what we've seen in theproject is where the schools run
an education series for parentson child anxiety.
And I'm avoiding the wordparenting group.
I'm trying to think about a wayto cast it so that it's not
(30:35):
about parenting education perse, but it's helping your child
with his or her anxiousness.
Parents are looking forsolutions.
They're looking for ideas.
Drew Janetzki (30:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Can we go there?
Because it's a place that youdon't it's a really sensitive
space as educators.
You don't want to tell theparent on how to parent their
kid.
Similar to the parent, youwouldn't like the parent coming
to tell the educator how toteach, so to speak.
Speak.
So there's how how's theanxiety bridging that that gap,
(31:12):
so to speak?
Michael Hawton (31:13):
Well, we know again, we'll go back to tools
here, back to the the basis forthis.
We know that uh theinteractions really matter.
Uh-huh.
If you change the interactions,you help address the anxiety.
So a key concept that we teachin the project is called uh
unhelpful accommodations.
Often what's happening forparents who are trying their
(31:33):
best, they're absolutely tryingtheir best.
But sometimes when they'rejumping in too much and not
tolerating the child being upsetor struggling, and then more
helping the child to work it outthemselves, what they're doing
and jumping in sometimes iscalled accommodation.
And once parents recognizethat, they stop doing it.
(31:54):
The research is really clear onthis.
What it's saying is that whenparents appreciate that by
jumping in all the time, and youcan do this kind of gently,
softly, but still challenging,um, in uh sessions with parents,
once they understand thatconcept of accommodation, then
they they will stopaccommodating unhelpfully.
(32:16):
There are accommodations thatare helpful, some but they're
leading towards autonomy andindependence.
But the unhelpful ones aremaking the child more dependent,
if you like, because they getrescued all the time from their
struggles.
So the issue is about how doyou do that in tolerable doses
so that the child builds up hisor her capacity over a period of
(32:38):
time.
The feedback from the teacherswho have been running these
child anxiety courses has beenterrific.
Like the parents who whom whothemselves might be
professionals, like lawyers andpsychologists and GPs, even they
are picking up new things tothink about when they're talking
(32:59):
to their children, not rescuingthem.
And if we go back to, you know,circle back to what we were
saying, prepare the child forthe road, not the road for the
child, means ultimately I needto help build up their inner
resourcefulness, their capacityto manage difficulties as they
come along.
Drew Janetzki (33:16):
Absolutely.
So, in terms of where, so welladdressed, where do parents in
terms of is there a time framethey come into the project is
where I'm going with thisquestion.
Do they do they start off interms of do we do we teach?
I'm a uh pretending I'm anovice, I'm I want to know a
(33:37):
further about the anxietyproject.
Am I getting parents into myschool to start with, or what's
been the best models or what isthe model of the anxiety project
to work that through?
Because there's some questionsthat I'm thinking of principals
and educators listening, going,where do I start with this?
I I I can see the problem, buthow do I start?
Michael Hawton (34:01):
Well, I mean, in the sequence on trainings,
we'll call the trainings plural.
Uh the first thing is to helpprincipals know what the
project's about because they'regoing to have to lead it.
Yeah.
The second part is to choosewhat's called an IC or an
implementation coach.
So that's either a deputy or anAP or somebody who you think's
got a good internal locus ofcontrol.
(34:22):
The third thing is to train theteachers up.
Yeah.
The fourth thing is to trainthe students up, and then down
the line, it's have a have alook at training the the parents
up.
I'll go next next week I'mgoing off to Sydney and I'll be
training a group of about 150 umparents over at Ovally, which
is down in the south of Sydney.
(34:43):
Um, but in the project, what wetend to do is to train up the
teachers to be able to runparent projects, if you like, as
part of what they do.
Um, and it's it's been amazing.
I mean, some of the schools,like in the northern beaches of
Sydney, have got 150, 200parents sometimes.
I'm thinking that's aboutright, um, coming along to learn
(35:07):
about how to help theirchildren with their anxiousness.
So I'm what I'm saying to youis that it there's a real need
out there, a real hunger for howcan I help my child be
psychologically stronger becauseI don't know where to get the
right help, or that the help'stoo delayed, or the help's too
expensive, if that makes sense.
So what the school is providingis kind of an ecosystem or a
(35:30):
precinct in which they controlthe internal messages, but also
they can provide resources forthe community.
And that's a just a wonderfulthing that school teachers can
find really motivating uh fortheir own work because they
really enjoy, you know, beingable to do that and make a
difference.
Drew Janetzki (35:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
So it's it and what I've heardthere is they're alongside you
as as partners clearly, but interms of the actual professional
learning and and structures inthe anxiety project, that comes
after the education of theeducator, so to speak, the
leads, the students.
(36:10):
Then we in-house make surethat's not perfect, but it's
working at a nice rhythm.
It's it's starting to showimpact before we branch out
further into to the parent bodysaying, Oh, we've we've we've
we've solved this anxiety issue.
(36:32):
Um not necessarily saying itlike that, but we've we've we
know we've had anxiety issuesand we've working through they
the parents come along in thelatter part of that project, is
that correct?
Michael Hawton (36:49):
Well, uh yes and no.
I mean, at the very beginningof the project, it's really
important to involve all thestakeholders and to let parents
know what the school is doing.
But then the other thing thatI've seen some schools do is
that when they begin teachingthe students about their brains
and about their minds and about,you know, fear and how to
manage your anxiousness, thatthat often schools have been
(37:12):
sending that information home tothe parents to say, just to let
you know, this is what we'reteaching your children at school
at the moment.
And so it begins a conversationaround the around the school,
around this idea that the schoolis doing some things to help uh
my child to manage his or heranxiousness over time.
(37:32):
And that's why I think a wholeof population approach is so
important, true, because if youcan um equip the adults around
the child and change the waythat they interact with the
child uh in a good way,obviously, then you can improve
the anxiousness over time.
Drew Janetzki (37:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you again forexplaining that, unpacking in
detail for people who may not beaware of or are considering as
part of next year in terms ofthe uptake.
Thank you again for the timetoday, your leadership in the
Anxiety Project, your clearmission.
(38:14):
The anxiety project continuesto be, and I say this lightly,
one of the most data-drivenwell-being initiatives in
Australia.
Um, and it's a credit toyourself and that those around
you.
And we can see, Michael, thethe impact, which is the most
important piece of so far, theimpact of the work.
(38:35):
Thanks, Drill.
Okay, terrific.
And Michael Horton joining ustoday.
And for those who areinterested in the anxiety
project, go to the newsouthwalesppa.org.au forward slash the
anxiety project and registeryour interest.
You can see the true impact.
(38:56):
Thanks again for listening.
And as always, keep learning,leading, and supporting the
well-being in your schools.
Before we finish today, let'stake a moment to hear from those
making the real difference.
Schools leading through theanxiety project.
And then some final words fromProfessor Terry Laidler and
(39:16):
Professor Patrick McGorrie.
In 2010, Patrick McGorrie wasnamed Australian of the Year and
later became an officer of theOrder of Australia.
His lifelong advocacy continuesto shape how we understand and
respond to youth mental healthin Australia and across the
world.
Principal from the NSW Stud (39:39):
The Anxiety Project works because
it helps people feel empoweredto take control of their anxious
feelings.
It helps them to build a toolbelt to be able to cope with
daily life challenges.
Executive from the NSW Stude (39:51):
We did discuss the need for a
consistent language to be usedacross staff and just that
common understanding, and weknew that that consistency was
going to be the key to theproject.
Principal from the NSW Stude (40:01):
We show at our school that we're
all human and it's okay toexperience anxiety.
It's also okay to have a goodday, a bad day, but to have each
other by our sides, that's thenumber one thing.
Professor Patrick Mc (40:25):
Resilience is an outcome, it's not a in
innate quality.
What you're doing is a muchmore collectivistic, a more
culture based sort of approachto this, which is a much better
way to think about it.
Okay, welcome back to Professional Learnings,
the New South Wales PPAEducational Leadership Podcast.
I'm your host, Drew Janetsky,and today we're continuing with
leading our data series of theAnxiety Project.
And we're revisiting thatimportant project, as I said,
the Anxiety Project.
Joining me once again ispsychologist and author Michael
(00:23):
Horton, Director of Parent Shop.
Michael, it's great to have youback.
Michael Hawton (00:28):
It's great to be back, Drew.
Drew Janetzki (00:30):
Yeah, feels like it's been full circle, and I'm
really intrigued to see theevolution of the anxiety project
and where to next in ourconversation today.
Yeah, it certainly has evolveda lot over the last three, four
years.
Absolutely.
And that's credit to yourself,the team, and also the work that
(00:54):
is coming through, and andwe'll unpack that today in terms
of the real impact that theanxiety project has had and the
success stories and real datastories, Michael, that show the
impact, show the I guess thehypotheses, hypotheses to where
(01:14):
it is now, from where where thatall that planning is to 2025.
Michael, before we get intotoday's conversations, let's
have a listen to an extract fromthe recent Student Well-being
forum where you explain thecycle of accommodation.
Principal from t (01:34):
Accommodations are something that I feel is
becoming a big deal in oursociety.
Sometimes they can hinder a lotmore than they help.
Michael Hawton (01:43):
Tom has a bad day at school.
Next day, Tom doesn't want togo to school.
Jane says, You've got to go.
Tom catastrophizes, creates ascene.
Jane says, okay, you can stayhome.
Tom stays at home, and Tomplays on his device all day.
Is this happening in a schoolnear you?
Just asking.
No, it's not just parents.
(02:05):
It's also professionals likemyself, sometimes giving you an
excuse letter for why Lucy can'tgo on camp tomorrow.
Or an OT who might be jumpingin and saying, Oh, you don't
want to stress them out toomuch.
Kids need experience of facingnormal life challenges.
Normal life challenges aregoing to school, going to camp.
Most parents know, you knowwhat, it's probably better that
(02:27):
he goes to school.
But they're letting it, they'regetting tripped up by their
child's anxiousness.
And this is calledaccommodation.
Drew Janetzki (02:35):
So, Michael, for those listening who are new to
the Anxiety Project, can youremind us of how it began and
what it is all about?
Michael Hawton (02:44):
Well, um, back in 2019, Drew, the Australian
Primary Principles Associationput out a survey back then
trying to understand the levelof mental health problems they
could see in kids in primaryschool.
And um what they came up withwere some kind of startling
results with about 700, or thenclose to close enough to 700 of
(03:06):
the 7,000 respondents in in thesurvey, were so that's a pretty
good sample, 10%.
Um, were saying that we've gotkids, children who are anxious,
they're more anxious than ageneration ago.
And then the upshot of that wasabout 90% of the school
leaders, many of whom haddecades of experience, were
(03:27):
saying that they actually didn'thave the resources to to do
much about it, or they were pooron resources to be able to
address um those anxietyproblems.
Drew Janetzki (03:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So a big why behind that.
And obviously, then there's theconnection to the New South
Wales Primary PrinciplesAssociation, which saw there was
this huge problem.
Came to you, came to yourorganization.
Tell us about the workingthrough of that to become now
(04:00):
the anxiety project.
Michael Hawton (04:03):
Well, I mean, my background, I work in community
health uh as a psychologist,uh, but also I've written a
couple of books.
My read most recent book'scalled The Anxiety Coach.
And it's helping uh parents, ifyou like, how to deal with the
anxiety they might be seeing intheir child.
Now, in schools, what schoolstend to see is children who are
(04:24):
reluctant or avoidant.
Uh, where something lookschallenging for a child, often,
even if it's an ambiguoussituation, they'll tend to be
reluctant or back off.
Um, and so a lot, a large partof this project has really been
about how do we help, how do weequip children in those kind of
micro moments where they mightbe avoiding or they might be
(04:48):
catastrophizing.
How do we help them to engagewith challenges?
Because that's the most obviousway that you'll see anxiousness
in children, young people, isthat they won't um engage as
much in the challenge.
And so part of the part of theissue is about what the adults
around the child can do tofacilitate and guide and
(05:12):
scaffold the child to get betterat meeting those challenges.
Drew Janetzki (05:17):
And so unpacking that further as part of the
project, teaching the adults, soto speak, of how to deal with
with children's discomfort.
Michael Hawton (05:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But if you think about it, thethe the uh cognitive behavioral
therapy has come a long way inthe last 30 years, for example.
Certainly when I was atuniversity back in the 80s,
there was a lot of work beingdone about how do you transpose
those kind of strategies intokind of an early intervention um
uh emphasis.
And so it's come a long waynow.
(05:47):
So you get books like comingout like Parent Led CBT, is one
of the books that I refer toquite a lot.
Because the inference there isthat if you train up lay people
to do some of the skills, andand we're not training them up
to be psychologists, so so letme be clear there.
But what we are doing is we'resaying we if we use some of the
skills that psychologists usewhen they're helping kids with
(06:09):
their anxiousness, then thatwill help the teachers, one,
feel more confident in theirability to manage uh a kind of a
mini crisis moment where thechild is avoiding or the child
isn't participating as much asyou would like them to.
I think that that what'shappened in more recent times is
that we've been reluctant tomake those challenges, if you
(06:31):
like, because we don't want tomake their anxiety worse.
And, you know, we don't want tobe accused of you know, in any
way upsetting the child, butthere's some real goal to be had
in helping kids to get betterat meeting challenges.
And ironically, if they went tosee the psychologist, um,
that's exactly what he or shewould do.
They would challenge the youngperson, challenge the child to
(06:55):
meet challenges where they mightbe avoiding or where they might
be catastrophizing or lettingtheir fear overcome them.
So yeah, there's there's someterrific things that I call it a
lay-led, a broad-based lay-ledmodel, where if you train up the
the teachers, for example, toget better at having those um
(07:16):
incidental moments, they'realready having these
conversations, as you know.
But the question is, how can wehelp them get better in those
kind of micro moments tofacilitate and guide the child
um to meet those challenges?
And then the more experiencesthey have like that, the more it
is that they'll get confidencein meeting challenges over time.
Drew Janetzki (07:38):
Yeah, that's it's just wondering how we got
to that point in in societywhere we're trying to be
supportive and encouraging to sto young people and obviously
try to support themunderstanding anxiety is an
issue, but in terms of how tohow to tackle that, whether
(07:59):
that's the right word, or how toovercome that, is it's a real
challenge for educators, forleaders of schools, for society,
for for adults, and obviouslyparents as well, who who want
the best for their kids yet arenavigating through the maze.
(08:21):
What what's your advice there,Michael?
Do you think we've as societyto I heard to just sit with
discomfort?
Michael Hawton (08:32):
Well, I think that's true that that parents uh
in particular, but alsoteachers, get tripped up by the
child's distress.
Um, but we want to help themget better at uh managing their
distress because it's in thestruggle, if you like, where
they're going to get strongerpsychologically, guess to get
stronger.
I mean, there's an old sayingin this area: prepare the child
(08:54):
for the road, not the road forthe child.
And ultimately, what that meansis that if we're going to help
them to get stronger, better,more able to deal with life's
vicissitudes and challenges,then we need to give them
practice along the way.
And that will require any of usadults to not always jump in
and solve the problem for them,but rather to guide them to
(09:18):
scaffold their ability toprovide them with opportunities
where they can kind of comegood.
And it's in those experiences,in those interactions, that
children are going to getbetter, you see.
Because it's kind of likethere's an, you know, if you
look at this, it some peoplethink anxiety is kind of like a
sore tooth.
It's kind of like there'ssomething wrong with their mind.
(09:38):
If you just fix their mindsomehow, but often more more
often than not, it's it'sactually there's nothing wrong
with their mind, but it's thenature of the interactions that
the child has with his or herenvironment that will see the
anxiety either get worse or uhget better.
And so if we change theinteractions between the adults
(09:59):
and the child, that's a good uhbasis to think, okay, how can we
make a difference here?
And I I think, Drew, like we'vetalked about this before, but I
think what we're seeing inteachers is that once they the
penny drops and they go, Hey,you know what?
I can I can manage a bit of thechild's discomfort because I've
got a longer game here.
(10:20):
The longer game I'm I'm kind ofplaying is how do I help this
child, what's in his or her bestinterest in this moment, even
if it's a bit uncomfortable forthem.
And I think once teachers knowthat by guiding them,
scaffolding their thinking andhelping them to use skills that
they would teach, they would betaught if they went to see the
(10:41):
psychologist, for example, howto problem solve, how to
reframe, how to calm theirbodies down, all of those kinds
of things.
It's been a very interestingride for teachers, I think,
because I think what we've seenis a growth in confidence in
teachers who are themselvesthinking, actually, I can use
some of these skills from my ownchildren.
You know, like I've heardteachers say to me, you know
(11:03):
what, I've read your book andI've also um set seen what we've
done at school, and I'm usingsome of this for my own kids.
Drew Janetzki (11:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
And we've seen that results.
And let's go to that now,Michael.
We've it's now in its fourthyear intake.
What have what have we learnedso far from the anxiety project?
What what's some of the key keymoments that have curiosity
have surprised you, but alsoreaffirmed the mission of the
(11:33):
anxiety project?
Michael Hawton (11:35):
Well, I think the couple of things that have
surprised us as the steeringcommittee have been kind of
iterating it and making itbetter and better each year.
But I think the thing thatstruck us is the language
changes around the school.
So once kids learn how to calmtheir bodies down, they learn
that their amygdala can throwhand grenades, for example, and
(11:56):
and they're better able to kindof have a sense of I can be the
boss of my anxiousness, then thelanguage changes, the culture
changes around the school.
And that's a terrific thing tosee.
And I think the other thingthat struck us is the level of
enthusiasm in in uh teachers uhfor the project, but also their
sense of um satisfaction withtheir work rises.
(12:21):
I think that's a fair thing tosay.
I think what we're seeing isteachers who are saying, you
know what, I can make areasonably big difference here
to the mental health of my ofthe young people in my care.
And um, I'm seeing that playout before me every day with
kids.
And this comes back in thequalitative research that's
being done as well.
Teachers saying to theresearchers, for example, I feel
(12:45):
like I've got something to gowith here that's making a very
big difference in my classroom.
I've got kids who are moreengaged, kids who are more
willing to have a go.
And that's one of the themes ofof the anxiety project is how
do we help kids to have a go, tomeet challenges, to not tap out
straight away, that kind ofthing.
So if you think to yourself,well, what are the
(13:06):
manifestations of this in the inthe school?
It's definitely a change oflanguage.
It's definitely you've gotteachers who feel more confident
to be able to have thosescaffolding, guiding kind of
conversations with kids.
And I think look, we're justdoing the research on this now,
but anecdotally, we know thatteachers' levels of anxiousness
is also decreasing.
(13:28):
That's got to be good news forthe profession.
Drew Janetzki (13:31):
So Well, that's a good news story.
And and if I segue into moregood news stories, you recently
had the well-being seminar inSydney.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that?
Or let's listen to an extractof that from that series now.
Professor Patrick Magory.
Professor Patrick McGorry (13:52):
This is a youth mental health crisis
that we're dealing with.
Its roots are in childhood, butthe kind of headwinds and and
the and the and the mega trendsthat are making it worse are
operating in this veryvulnerable period between
puberty and the mid-20s.
The Surgeon General in the US,very serious dude.
He said the challenges today'sgeneration of young people face
are unprecedented and uniquelyhard to navigate, and the effect
(14:16):
these challenges have had ontheir mental health is
devastating.
The Australian data is reallyclear, and that showed a jump
from 26% in the 16 to 24 agegroup to 39% over a 15-year
period, which is huge.
The jump is much higher inyoung women than in young men,
and that's a nasty combinationof anxiety, depression,
self-harm, and even eatingdisorders.
(14:38):
The health system's designedfor the over 50s and also little
kids.
We've got to look after theyoung people in the meantime.
That's where our focus hasbeen.
So and they need differentsystems of care from what
traditional health care, mentalhealth care has provided.
Drew Janetzki (14:51):
What do you what what was your take from that
piece from Professor PatrickMcGorrie?
Michael Hawton (14:57):
Look, Patrick has uh only just released a
fairly large and significantpiece of work in The Lancet,
which is the British MedicalJournal, about young people in
Australia.
And um he said a few things onthe day that are really worth uh
identifying.
Uh he said anxiety unattendedto will tend to get worse over
(15:18):
time.
Meaning, if you don't attend toit when they're in primary
school, by the time they're inearly high school, it'll get
worse.
And if by the time they're inmiddle adolescents and late
adolescents, it will tend to getworse.
So that's one thing that'sreally worth remembering.
The other thing he said on theday was that anxious behavior in
children is often a gateway tolater, more difficult
(15:41):
psychological um illness.
Uh and what he means by agateway, of course, is that kids
who are psychologically unableto manage the stress that comes
in at them are going to be in amore tricky situation than ones
who have learnt how to deal withthe stress that comes in at
(16:01):
them, so to speak.
Um but he is also saying thatthose later, more serious
ailments like psychosis andsuicidality and depression, that
anxiety sits behind that.
So, what I think is wonderfulabout what the New South Wales
Primary Principles Associationhas done has worked been to work
with us to be able to say,okay, we can make a difference
(16:23):
at an early intervention level.
And it's important because thepsychiatric illnesses that come
later on usually are fed byearly onset anxious behaviour.
Now, some of the anxiety isnormal and and just is part of
some kids' temperament and theirgenes.
(16:43):
But we know that a fair bit ofthat is learn in the
interactions that the child haswith his or her environment.
And so if we change thoseinteractions, the simple
hypothesis is that if we changethe interactions, we can address
the anxiety over time.
Drew Janetzki (17:01):
Yeah, yeah, very powerful indeed.
And it shows independently whatI've heard is obviously it's
arm's length of research, butyou've got Professor Patrick
McGrawy now looking at the work,and he's really analyzed the
work and can see the value ofthe anxiety project.
Michael Hawton (17:25):
Well, I think so.
I mean, we've we've approachedOrigin to do some of the um
later research just recently.
And so I think I'm hoping thatthey'll pick it up on the back
of what Hilton EducationalResearch has already done.
But clearly what we need is tochange the model, Drew, because
we've got, at the moment, we'vegot such a a big problem with uh
(17:47):
anxiety in young people, as Isaid, on that trajectory.
We've now got 32%.
Nearly one in three are youngpeople who've got an anxiety
disorder.
So it's not normal anxiousness.
We're talking about uh socialphobia, generalized anxiety
disorder, about one in three inthat 16 to 24-year-old age
group.
And that's what Patrick'sresearch picked up.
(18:08):
So we've got a large problem,which there's no getting around
it.
I mean I'm I'm usually one foraccuracy.
Uh, and and what I would say toyou is that even being accurate
at 32%, this is Magorrie'swork, uh, that's a fit that's a
lot of teenagers who areanxious, but it starts back
here, you see.
And if if only we can uh get umuh intervene at that early
(18:33):
level, we'll make a hugedifference.
And that's what the highschools are telling me as well.
We have another project we runin high schools, but they're
saying that a lot of theanxiousness is coming into high
schools, and they're not blamingprimary schools, but they're
just saying it's coming from theprimary school from the middle
childhood um place where overtime the anxiety tends to get
worse over time.
Drew Janetzki (18:56):
And I know you follow, and I as I I do as well,
the work of Jonathan Hayes andand on screen, these things.
The mobile phone seems to be uhwhat's your comments on the
mobile phone and and hate's workon the contributing factor to
anxiety?
Because those stats that you'vejust shared, they're pretty
(19:17):
frightening.
Michael Hawton (19:18):
Well, they're not good.
We need a different model fordealing with it.
And and I I uh you know, when Italk about broad-based lay-led,
I'm I'm saying that all theadults in the community should
be able to do some things orsome things to uh to decrease
the levels of anxiousness.
And I think that's the beautyof the anxiety project.
(19:40):
We're talking about a culturalchange.
A bit of my background, I usedto work for for UNICEF uh in
Vietnam.
And I've anyway, the the upshotof that is that population
change projects rely on the keystakeholders, and the key
stakeholders in this case arethe significant adults.
So, how can we quick we can howcan we make that happen?
(20:00):
Just circling back to uh thephone issue though.
I d I don't think it's phonesby themselves.
I think even before the adventof phones, child mental health
was problematic back in the2008, 9, 10s, and um I think so.
What we've seen over time is uhreductions in child mental
(20:21):
health.
I'm sure that it's amplified itfor sure.
Phones have amplified theproblem.
And I'm and and I guess thequestion, as everybody's asking
now, is should we be allowingchildren, particularly under 13,
to have a phone and be exposedto pretty much adult material in
terms of the socialinteractions and the levels of
(20:44):
um uh antagonism and if youlike, um outrage sometimes that
you see on social media.
I think kids can't shieldthemselves because they haven't
got there yet the developmentalego strength and they haven't
got the wherewithal to push itaway, so to speak, if they don't
like it.
So I think there are problemswith that for sure.
I I think that's it, we've gota bigger issue at hand.
(21:06):
If we have such large numbersthat are developing anxiety
disorders over time, we need tothink outside the square.
And what I mean by that is thatwe need to say, okay, look,
there's not enough professionalsto go around.
They clearly are not.
Um, and and so we're not gonnareinvent those professionals
overnight, if you like.
(21:26):
So we've got to find a way tohelp children um in those kind
of adult to child conversations,which is where they're gonna
happen.
Teaching them, uh it, I mean,some of the people in this area
are like the same Omar, he talksabout striking while the iron's
hot and striking while theiron's cold.
Now, striking while the iron'shot, what he means is that we
(21:46):
can help kids in theinteractions at the moment
they're avoiding or at themoment they're catastrophizing.
So, teachers in the training wedo for the anxiety project, we
show teachers how to respondusing a bit of a script.
Say this first, do this second,say this third, you know, that
kind of thing.
So that works.
Um, the other thing is strikethem while the iron is cold.
(22:10):
And what that means is you canteach kids about their brain and
their mind offline.
And once they learn thelanguage, like even the word
amygdala is probably the hardestword that we've even teach.
Once kids learn about theiramygdala, they get to talk to
their amygdala and say, calmdown.
It's okay, I'll be fine, youknow?
And they learn that idea that Ican actually be the boss of my
(22:31):
amygdala, I can be the boss ofmy fear, I can be the boss of my
anxiety.
And being able to cross thatRubicon, so to speak, in them
that they have some char theycan take charge of some of their
anxiousness and they canself-regulate.
Now, this ability toself-regulate, as you know, is
developmentally uh somethingthat kids get better at uh uh
(22:53):
over time.
But we can guide them uh andfacilitate that ability, that
self-regulatory ability over aperiod of time.
And as a result of that, we'llhave less anxious kids over
time.
Drew Janetzki (23:07):
Yeah, terrific.
And I love that optimism andalso the fact we're educating
kids and students and the wholepopulation about how the brain
actually works and how, as yousaid, to control the enigmala.
I almost got it right there,Michael, the enigmula and how
(23:27):
that works and how we cancontrol that as such.
We are the boss of our ownbrain, we are the boss of how we
can respond to this, but Ican't think of another time when
we've been explicitly shownthis in a primary school, high
school setting.
Michael Hawton (23:53):
Well, I I think it's because we haven't had very
good models for using cognitivebehavioral therapy as an early
intervention uh set of tools.
Um up to only at the least last10 years or so, I'd say it's
only been since that you've gotbooks like this coming out,
which is you know, parent-ledCBT for child anxiety.
(24:15):
It's only recently that thesekinds of ideas kind of hit the
the airwaves.
And I think we've got bet we'vegot better over time in knowing
that we can teach kids what thepsychologist would teach them
if they went to see him or heruh in a therapy session in the
context of their school days.
(24:35):
And I think that's why I thinkthere's teachers who are like
what's really struck us, Drew,is the number, the level of
teachers who are quiteenthusiastic about what they're
doing.
Because I I g I think it givesthem a real sense of motivation.
You know, it's not like theyweren't having these
conversations before.
They absolutely were.
But what we've I think what theAnxiety Project has done is
(24:58):
kind of filled up their kid bagwith ideas about how to hold
conversations so that kids don'ttap out immediately.
Because I think it's becomingmore obvious to me, particularly
in the high school work that wedo, that you've got kids who
are tapping out.
They're leaving class, forexample, or they're not going to
school, or they're they're notjoining in.
(25:20):
And I think what we're seeingat a kind of vastly at a kind of
population level is lots ofkids who are not sure how to m
manage the struggle withinthemselves to stay in, to not
tap out, to have a go, all ofall of those things.
Drew Janetzki (25:37):
And we heard at the well-being, going back to
the well-being seminar thisyear, what were the stand there
were some real standout schoolsthat we saw.
Was there anything that came tomind?
I I was fortunate enough to bethere, as well as you.
What would were there anyschools that stood out for you
that we could hear from now?
Michael Hawton (25:58):
Well, I think you'd we probably have to go
back to those schools and uh askthem what how it worked and why
it worked.
But clearly there were somevery big drops over 12 months in
the levels of child anxiety.
And um we know that um a numberof those schools.
Can I name them, Drew?
Just I'm not sure.
Absolutely.
No, go for it.
(26:19):
You can absolutely.
Oh, Claremont Meadows, um,William Dean, um, um Angalow
Public School, all of this,those schools showed significant
decreases in the levels ofanxiousness in kids.
And you've got to hand it tothem.
That's that's because thepopulation of teachers, the
principal and the population ofteachers within those schools
(26:41):
applied themselves to, if youlike, the large-scale therapy
model.
You know, they said we're gonnatry and make a difference to
children's anxiousness in ourschool.
And it it paid off because over12 months, what they did is
apply themselves to asustainable model, and that
sustainable implementation, ifyou like, worked because they
(27:03):
committed themselves to doingsomething about child anxiety in
their schools.
Uh, and that's only gonnabenefit those kids, uh,
obviously, as they move intolater into high schools.
I think we've got not to put Idon't want to put too much
emphasis on this, Drew, but Ithink we've got a an opportunity
with the anxiety project tomake a difference to a whole
(27:25):
generation of kids.
I absolutely think that.
I I don't think I'm overstatingit, because I think it is it is
uh a problem that needsdefinitely needs addressing.
I think we've got a wholegeneration of kids who are
becoming more anxious over time.
Can we change the circumstancesaround them to to help them to
be less anxious?
I think we've got the proofthat you can.
Drew Janetzki (27:47):
Yeah, very powerful.
And we'll go to those clips nowto have a listen to the impact
from the well-being seminar.
Michael Hawton (27:57):
Uh I think uh Carmen Betsy is very powerful.
Um, you know, when she talksabout throwing the hand grenade.
Executive from the NSW Stud (28:04):
One of our students was having a
bit of a moment and he said, Ihad my chair, and then my friend
came over, he thought it washis chair, and it resulted in
him yelling, screaming.
He stormed out of the classroomfrom that.
Do you think your reactionmatched the event?
And he goes, Oh, no way.
My amygdala threw a grenade.
Bow amygdala.
Bit like a lizard brain,they're always scared of
(28:26):
everything.
And he said, Well, I could justtalk to my amygdala, tell it to
calm down.
It's not in danger, we're okay.
He was able to explain whathappened, how he felt, in a way
that made sense to both of us.
When he went back to theclassroom and he was explaining
to his teacher and his friendabout the grenade getting thrown
and all the rest of it, they'rethere going, Yeah, right, I get
(28:48):
it, I get it.
Drew Janetzki (28:50):
Okay, Michael, how powerful was just reflecting
on that?
How powerful was that thatwe've just heard?
Michael Hawton (28:58):
I think it's very powerful.
I think the stories around whatthe children can do uh and what
they've um being able toreflect on, and the teachers
being able to say, Oh, I can seethis child taking control of
himself.
I can see this child uh ismanaging their um amygdala or
managing their anxiety and it'splaying out before my eyes, you
(29:21):
know, in the school environment.
I think that's just a wonderfulthing.
Drew Janetzki (29:25):
Absolutely, Michael.
Now let's listen to Tim Lloyd,principal of Flumpton High
School from the high schoolperspective.
Tim Lloyd (29:33):
Principal
hear, you do link to that notionof building resilience, then
our kids become more successful.
Adjustments are deliberatestrategies that lead to
increased function throughenabling the child to overcome
situations that were previouslypreventing success.
The more accommodations wehave, the greater challenge.
(29:56):
If you're trying to accommodate1,200 kids, we're not going to
be successful.
So everything is built foreverybody.
It's consistent in that,irrespective of what classroom
you walk into in the morning,it's the same as the one across
the corridor and across theother side of the school.
Michael Hawton (30:13):
And I think the other thing that's come up,
Drew, is that parents aregetting involved as well.
So what we've seen in theproject is where the schools run
an education series for parentson child anxiety.
And I'm avoiding the wordparenting group.
I'm trying to think about a wayto cast it so that it's not
(30:35):
about parenting education perse, but it's helping your child
with his or her anxiousness.
Parents are looking forsolutions.
They're looking for ideas.
Drew Janetzki (30:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Can we go there?
Because it's a place that youdon't it's a really sensitive
space as educators.
You don't want to tell theparent on how to parent their
kid.
Similar to the parent, youwouldn't like the parent coming
to tell the educator how toteach, so to speak.
Speak.
So there's how how's theanxiety bridging that that gap,
(31:12):
so to speak?
Michael Hawton (31:13):
Well, we know again, we'll go back to tools
here, back to the the basis forthis.
We know that uh theinteractions really matter.
Uh-huh.
If you change the interactions,you help address the anxiety.
So a key concept that we teachin the project is called uh
unhelpful accommodations.
Often what's happening forparents who are trying their
(31:33):
best, they're absolutely tryingtheir best.
But sometimes when they'rejumping in too much and not
tolerating the child being upsetor struggling, and then more
helping the child to work it outthemselves, what they're doing
and jumping in sometimes iscalled accommodation.
And once parents recognizethat, they stop doing it.
(31:54):
The research is really clear onthis.
What it's saying is that whenparents appreciate that by
jumping in all the time, and youcan do this kind of gently,
softly, but still challenging,um, in uh sessions with parents,
once they understand thatconcept of accommodation, then
they they will stopaccommodating unhelpfully.
(32:16):
There are accommodations thatare helpful, some but they're
leading towards autonomy andindependence.
But the unhelpful ones aremaking the child more dependent,
if you like, because they getrescued all the time from their
struggles.
So the issue is about how doyou do that in tolerable doses
so that the child builds up hisor her capacity over a period of
(32:38):
time.
The feedback from the teacherswho have been running these
child anxiety courses has beenterrific.
Like the parents who whom whothemselves might be
professionals, like lawyers andpsychologists and GPs, even they
are picking up new things tothink about when they're talking
(32:59):
to their children, not rescuingthem.
And if we go back to, you know,circle back to what we were
saying, prepare the child forthe road, not the road for the
child, means ultimately I needto help build up their inner
resourcefulness, their capacityto manage difficulties as they
come along.
Drew Janetzki (33:16):
Absolutely.
So, in terms of where, so welladdressed, where do parents in
terms of is there a time framethey come into the project is
where I'm going with thisquestion.
Do they do they start off interms of do we do we teach?
I'm a uh pretending I'm anovice, I'm I want to know a
(33:37):
further about the anxietyproject.
Am I getting parents into myschool to start with, or what's
been the best models or what isthe model of the anxiety project
to work that through?
Because there's some questionsthat I'm thinking of principals
and educators listening, going,where do I start with this?
I I I can see the problem, buthow do I start?
Michael Hawton (34:01):
Well, I mean, in the sequence on trainings,
we'll call the trainings plural.
Uh the first thing is to helpprincipals know what the
project's about because they'regoing to have to lead it.
Yeah.
The second part is to choosewhat's called an IC or an
implementation coach.
So that's either a deputy or anAP or somebody who you think's
got a good internal locus ofcontrol.
(34:22):
The third thing is to train theteachers up.
Yeah.
The fourth thing is to trainthe students up, and then down
the line, it's have a have alook at training the the parents
up.
I'll go next next week I'mgoing off to Sydney and I'll be
training a group of about 150 umparents over at Ovally, which
is down in the south of Sydney.
(34:43):
Um, but in the project, what wetend to do is to train up the
teachers to be able to runparent projects, if you like, as
part of what they do.
Um, and it's it's been amazing.
I mean, some of the schools,like in the northern beaches of
Sydney, have got 150, 200parents sometimes.
I'm thinking that's aboutright, um, coming along to learn
(35:07):
about how to help theirchildren with their anxiousness.
So I'm what I'm saying to youis that it there's a real need
out there, a real hunger for howcan I help my child be
psychologically stronger becauseI don't know where to get the
right help, or that the help'stoo delayed, or the help's too
expensive, if that makes sense.
So what the school is providingis kind of an ecosystem or a
(35:30):
precinct in which they controlthe internal messages, but also
they can provide resources forthe community.
And that's a just a wonderfulthing that school teachers can
find really motivating uh fortheir own work because they
really enjoy, you know, beingable to do that and make a
difference.
Drew Janetzki (35:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
So it's it and what I've heardthere is they're alongside you
as as partners clearly, but interms of the actual professional
learning and and structures inthe anxiety project, that comes
after the education of theeducator, so to speak, the
leads, the students.
(36:10):
Then we in-house make surethat's not perfect, but it's
working at a nice rhythm.
It's it's starting to showimpact before we branch out
further into to the parent bodysaying, Oh, we've we've we've
we've solved this anxiety issue.
(36:32):
Um not necessarily saying itlike that, but we've we've we
know we've had anxiety issuesand we've working through they
the parents come along in thelatter part of that project, is
that correct?
Michael Hawton (36:49):
Well, uh yes and no.
I mean, at the very beginningof the project, it's really
important to involve all thestakeholders and to let parents
know what the school is doing.
But then the other thing thatI've seen some schools do is
that when they begin teachingthe students about their brains
and about their minds and about,you know, fear and how to
manage your anxiousness, thatthat often schools have been
(37:12):
sending that information home tothe parents to say, just to let
you know, this is what we'reteaching your children at school
at the moment.
And so it begins a conversationaround the around the school,
around this idea that the schoolis doing some things to help uh
my child to manage his or heranxiousness over time.
(37:32):
And that's why I think a wholeof population approach is so
important, true, because if youcan um equip the adults around
the child and change the waythat they interact with the
child uh in a good way,obviously, then you can improve
the anxiousness over time.
Drew Janetzki (37:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you again forexplaining that, unpacking in
detail for people who may not beaware of or are considering as
part of next year in terms ofthe uptake.
Thank you again for the timetoday, your leadership in the
Anxiety Project, your clearmission.
(38:14):
The anxiety project continuesto be, and I say this lightly,
one of the most data-drivenwell-being initiatives in
Australia.
Um, and it's a credit toyourself and that those around
you.
And we can see, Michael, thethe impact, which is the most
important piece of so far, theimpact of the work.
(38:35):
Thanks, Drill.
Okay, terrific.
And Michael Horton joining ustoday.
And for those who areinterested in the anxiety
project, go to the newsouthwalesppa.org.au forward slash the
anxiety project and registeryour interest.
You can see the true impact.
(38:56):
Thanks again for listening.
And as always, keep learning,leading, and supporting the
well-being in your schools.
Before we finish today, let'stake a moment to hear from those
making the real difference.
Schools leading through theanxiety project.
And then some final words fromProfessor Terry Laidler and
(39:16):
Professor Patrick McGorrie.
In 2010, Patrick McGorrie wasnamed Australian of the Year and
later became an officer of theOrder of Australia.
His lifelong advocacy continuesto shape how we understand and
respond to youth mental healthin Australia and across the
world.
Principal from the NSW Stud (39:39):
The Anxiety Project works because
it helps people feel empoweredto take control of their anxious
feelings.
It helps them to build a toolbelt to be able to cope with
daily life challenges.
Executive from the NSW Stude (39:51):
We did discuss the need for a
consistent language to be usedacross staff and just that
common understanding, and weknew that that consistency was
going to be the key to theproject.
Principal from the NSW Stude (40:01):
We show at our school that we're
all human and it's okay toexperience anxiety.
It's also okay to have a goodday, a bad day, but to have each
other by our sides, that's thenumber one thing.
Professor Patrick Mc (40:25):
Resilience is an outcome, it's not a in
innate quality.
What you're doing is a muchmore collectivistic, a more
culture based sort of approachto this, which is a much better
way to think about it.
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