Embark on a journey of self-discovery and reignite your passion for educational leadership with insights from principals Andrew Price and Shanti Clements. Their experiences, enriched by the NSWPPA scholarship, reveal the profound impact of Reflective Practice. Andrew describes it as a crucial 'soul work' that helps educators explore deeply-held values and hone leadership styles. Shanti emphasises its role in sparking enthusiasm and buffering against the professional burnout that can effect even the most dedicated school leaders. Together, they unfold a narrative that champions reflection as an indispensable tool for professional enhancement across the educational spectrum, not merely a lifeline during times of crisis.
Venture further into the nuanced landscape of Leadership Supervision, where the old-school ideas of hierarchy give way to the concept of 'supervision'—a wide-angled lens on leadership impact. Our guests unpack tools like indigenous yarning maps and narrative reflection, framing them as means to foster critical thinking and emotional acuity. As they share stories of their personal and professional transformations, you'll recognize how reflective supervision, especially amid unprecedented challenges like the pandemic, proves to be a trauma-informed approach that fortifies leadership capabilities. For those itching to harness the power of reflective practice for their own growth, the New South Wales PPA stands ready as a beacon of support and inspiration.
Links and References:
To view our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning
To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Drew J (00:00):
Hello and welcome to season two of the Principal
Learning Podcast.
If you're a principal oreducational leader looking to
enhance your skills, this is aplace for you, so let's get into
it.
Let's embark on this learningjourney together.
In 2023, principals AndrewPryce and Shanti Clements, who
(00:20):
are also members of the NSW PPALeadership Standing Committee,
were successful in gaining ascholarship through the NSW PPA
with the support of BFXFurniture.
In our discussion today, theyshare their knowledge,
excitement and thoughts on theimportance of this new
initiative to the educationsector.
It's called Reflective Practicefor School Leaders.
(00:43):
Andrew Shati, thanks so muchfor being here today.
Could you please brieflyintroduce yourselves and your
respective roles in education?
Andrew (00:53):
Okay, I'll go first, Drew, thanks.
So I am the Principal of amedium-sized primary school in
the region of the NSW inNewcastle, situated in, I guess,
in the inner city, for 50 to500 kids.
I've been a principal for Imean almost 16th year now as a
(01:15):
school Principal, having startedmy career in Western Sydney
Mount Druitt region, out toLightning Ridge so far outback
NSW town at school To TauriPublic School with approximately
90% Aboriginal and Indigenouspopulation and then to Raymond
Terrace Public School beforebecoming principal at Islington
(01:38):
Public School.
I'm at Glendale East PublicSchool now and the School I'm at
I think that's given me a verydiverse range of skills and
understandings of the differentcontexts of education in NSW and
the communities and the clientsthat we serve.
Yeah, so that's my career ineducation, recently completed
(01:59):
Master's Degree throughUniversity of Wollongong in
Educational Leadership and lastyear was participant in the
Reflective Supervision inEducation Program.
Drew J (02:09):
Yeah, fantastic, Andrew , just shows in terms of the
diversity and the range ofexperience you have and here we
are which we will go intoreflective practice.
But before we do, Shanti, canyou give us, our audience, a
little bit of a background aboutyourself?
Shanti (02:26):
Yeah, thanks, Drew.
So this is my 30th year ineducation and I've been very
lucky to be principal of twoschools.
The first school I was at asprincipal was in Beauty Point in
Mosman, and now I'm at SevenHills West, which is in Western
Sydney.
I've been a Principal schoolleader, as well as in state
(02:48):
office as an acting director forleadership and teacher quality
and, similar to Andrew, I'mreally passionate about
educational leadership.
I've done a Master's ineducational leadership and I've
also done a PhD in educationalleadership looking at career
span leadership and the impactand the influence of school
principals in buildinghigh-performing teams and
(03:11):
uplifting their school cultures.
Drew J (03:13):
And you're both scholarship participants through
the NSW Primary PrinciplesAssociation and I've really seen
a real energy come through fromboth of you.
I guess let's for thoseuninformed in our discussion
today.
We're going to be going intoreflective practice with
reflective practice, and feelfree in terms of I'm sure you'll
(03:35):
probably want to talk over eachother, but I'm sure you'll take
turns in that process.
Tell our audience what isreflective practice and,
secondly, why is it crucial forour school leaders and I'll
leave that open to either of youto interject?
Shanti (03:51):
Andrew, do you want to go first, or would you like me?
Andrew (03:54):
No, I can go first.
I'm going to go first.
Look, it's really difficult todistill into one or two words
the what is reflective practice,but if I had to do that
succinctly, I would say thatreflective practice is the sole
work for educators.
(04:15):
We spend an incredible amountof time looking at our roles and
focusing on the technicalaspects of management, some
leadership, I guess, policydevelopment strategy but this,
from a reflective supervision,is the sole work.
(04:36):
It's the opportunity to workwith the leader to really dig
into what they're about, theirvalues, their problems, and
provide that safe space that Iguess gets them to reflect on
who they are as a leader andprovide them with, I guess, the
opportunities to explore wherethey are and how they're going
to lead their schools toimprovement.
(04:58):
So for me, it's the sole workand not the role work.
Shanti (05:02):
And then, building on what Andrew's saying,
professional reflectivesupervision is an opportunity
for all of us in our professionto have important touch points
in our career that re-spark ourmojo.
It's supporting us in optimalleadership practice as well as
being proactive in alleviatingworkplace stress and reducing
(05:26):
the possibility of burnout.
So it's very, very differentfrom coaching or mentoring or
even, let's say, counselling.
It's not picking up the piecesafter someone's fallen apart or
is experiencing burnout.
It's about making sure thatyou're optimally self-reflecting
and that you're aware, as aleader, on how to rejuvenate
(05:47):
yourself and how you canactually work constructively
with your teams.
And the model of this reallycomes from the clinical
profession, where nurses,doctors, therapists, every month
have the opportunity to reflecton their practice and the
research shows that it keepspeople motivated and it keeps
(06:07):
best practice research, as wellas leadership and workplace
practice at the optimal level.
Drew J (06:16):
Yeah, so you're going to research.
It seems, from our perspective,through the New South Wales PPA
and through education, this isa new space for reflective
practice supervision.
Either of you could you giveour listeners ways in which you
(06:38):
said it's not at that pointy endwhere it's a little bit late
for things or things to try, andwhere would it actually?
Where could participants pickup this reflective supervision
from either of you?
Did I have to be, for example,at a leadership role?
(06:59):
Or who was this targeted for?
Who would this benefit?
This work?
Shanti (07:05):
Well, you can be a teacher.
You can also be a leader.
The importance about thisaround the restorative approach
is that they have a metaphorcalled the three-legged stool.
So it can be formative, it canbe normative and it can be
restorative, and so it can focusnot only on your teaching or
your leadership well-being, butyour growth and development at
(07:27):
where your personal level isneeded.
So it's a very safe place togain clarity and a broader
perspective on work-relatedissues.
And when they talk about thethree-legged stool, often you
can use coaching and mentoringto help support someone in a
formative way, or you can usecoaching and mentoring to
(07:50):
support that normative thingwhich is the standards-basic.
This is different.
It's not about being aparticular coach or mentor.
It's about stepping in wheresupervision and that reflection
is needed.
So there might be times whenyou might need to be restorative
and supportive, or might betimes when you need to really
focus on your job and yourethical practice.
(08:12):
What do you think, andrew, inyour experience of it?
Andrew (08:19):
Yeah, supervision is positioned very differently in
terms of the restorative natureof it.
I think that there is a.
Well, I don't think theevidence has shown us that
school leaders and a lot ofpeople that work in social
industry are actually screamingout for support in their
(08:42):
practice.
There is nothing like it ineducation, where there is the
space to, I guess, explore yourideas, your understandings
safely and have thoseconversations with a colleague
who is trusted.
And you know it's aboutsupervision, is about the
(09:05):
supervisory.
It's the only time in the monthwhere you get to sit down for
an hour as a school leader andtalk about yourself and your
problems and decide your waysforward, having a good
understanding of all, I guess,the risks, the benefits, the
perspectives and how that willland once you've decided to move
(09:26):
forward.
It's a unique opportunity therehas been.
You know I guess we're talkingSharif and I have, you know, got
the best part of 60 years ofschool leadership experience
between us.
Drew J (09:38):
It's exciting the words , though, for those uninformed
supervision comes across as abit of a scary word or some sort
of accountability.
Can you clarify that for us?
So why would I want to go as aparticipant to be part of?
Sounds exciting, but I'm in theback of my mind.
(09:59):
I'm like I'm not going to giveall to you here, because I have
a, I'm a principal, for example,and I've got my line items and
so forth.
Can you give some reassuranceor processes from how can that
be a safe place for people whoare interested in going to
either of you in this work?
Shanti (10:23):
Yeah.
So the word itself when youfirst.
You know we all found when wewere doing the program at Sydney
University, none of us likedthe word supervision because
we've got this very hierarchical, traditional, semantic
understanding of it.
However, if you sort of breakit down like super vision, so
it's about seeing a biggerpicture, a more panoramic view
(10:47):
of yourself as a leader and yourimpact with your school teams
and your community.
So super vision is about super,seeing that bigger picture,
having a large, broaderperspective.
And the good and the wonderfulthing about it is that it uses
metaphor.
There's a whole range of thingsthat you can use.
(11:09):
You can put a spotlight onissues you can walk with.
You know, walk the journey.
There's the Mobius strip.
There's so many differentmetaphors that can help bring
out this reflective super visionof yourself as a leader.
For example, sometimes in mysessions I've been using an
indigenous yarning map, or Imight use music, narrative
(11:33):
reflection, gestalt journaling.
There's so many different toolsthat you can use in reflective
practice.
The main thing is it's criticalreflection on your leadership
practice.
Andrew (11:49):
And I to probably be wrong on that, I wouldn't be
used.
Word supervision, I mean thatis the technical term, but a lot
of the time when I'm explainingto people what it is, it is
really critical.
Reflection is the space for youto reflect on the challenges of
your work and the importance ofit.
(12:13):
Having a colleague principal asyour supervisor is that there
is no accountability, there isno line management, there is no
repercussion, there is no.
That person said something Ididn't like, so that is the
actual importance of you knowpeople that are somewhat removed
(12:33):
from the supervisorrelationship being supervisors.
So, yeah, for me it's reallyabout that space to reflect on
your practice with somebody thatis not going to ever hold it
against you, it's not going tolook at you and think, oh geez,
you're really struggling in that.
In this job, people can bevulnerable and really get into
(12:56):
the stuff that's causing themchallenges and that's certainly
been my experience as asupervisor is that very
experienced principals open upvery quickly because they're
desperate for this space to beable to do, to be able to
understand themselves and toreflect on how they become
better.
Shanti (13:14):
Yeah, and in building a watch Andrew's talking about.
You know, initially when wewere doing the pilot, we needed
to see two principal colleagueswith word of mouth Mine grew
from two to six people and theprincipals that I am doing
reflective leadershipsupervision with.
They're experienced principals.
(13:36):
This is something that mature,experienced principals are
calling out for, because oftenthey're the forgotten voice.
A lot of the focus on educationsystems is in the aspiring
leaders and the novice leaders,but those that are experienced
also need to connect and yourleader identity keeps developing
(13:57):
across the careers.
Back, and that's the beauty ofreflective practice You're
actually helping people getclear on their worldview, their
impact, their leadership vision,their values and, as a result
of that, you're actuallybuilding their self awareness
and their personal andprofessional resilience in the
process.
Drew J (14:15):
Yeah, great, chanti and Andrew.
Similar numbers for you as well?
Andrew (14:28):
During the program I took on supervision of three
people.
Minimum was one.
Two would have been better tosatisfy the course requirements
and get the hours.
But I had another third personcome to me and say I've heard
about supervision from thisperson, do you have some time
and space for me?
And I made space for thatperson.
(14:49):
Interestingly, I've continuedon with those people into this
year.
They've also seen significantvalue in it that will continue
to grow.
By word of mouth, I think yeah,I don't know how I'm going to
say it.
Drew J (15:11):
That's great.
So, in terms of for theuninformed, is it to
differentiate the point withcoaching?
Is there a or are we stillworking through a procedure of X
amount of time?
What am I looking if I was tolook at as a principal?
And the words you're saying?
It's really inspiring, I'mhooked into.
(15:32):
What am I signing up for?
Am I signing up for a threesession?
I give, I guess, a framework tohow this works, to what
investment of time so I can getthe best out of myself as a
principal working with either ofyou.
Shanti (15:47):
Yeah, so typically when you do reflective supervision,
it's not coaching.
So you're not going into thesessions with outcomes that you
want to achieve, because whatyou're going to be focusing on
in reflective supervision iswhat comes up, what arises in
that work week that is importantfor you to speak about and
(16:08):
typically people will see, willhave supervision, either every
fortnight or maybe once a month.
For us, we not only do wesupervise, we all receive
supervision.
So that's part of thecommitment to professional
practice.
We have to be authentically inthat space where we're receiving
it, as well as supportingcolleagues in that space.
(16:32):
So it's not like coaching ormentoring where you have
outcomes that you're workingtowards.
Instead, you talk about thingsthat arise.
You then want to keep areflection of the impact of how
you've managed that situationand looking at your own
emotional responses, with a realfocus on what they call the
unseen others.
Those unseen others, for us aseducators, might be our teaching
(16:56):
colleagues, might be theparents, might be the students.
So the impact of our leadershipon those unseen others, which
actually strengthens yourdiversity and your ability to
communicate and reallyunderstand your influence on
others.
Does that help explain that alittle bit more too?
Drew J (17:13):
Yes, it does.
It's trying to support forthose uninformed about what the
reflective supervision is and Iguess in terms of the
differentiating point is forthose uninformed again, what is
the difference if I was to goPrincipal was to seek out the
services that you are offering,what is the point of difference
(17:34):
and what can the participantbenefit from?
So it's really differentiatingthat to the coaching model here.
You've kept all of your currentpeople that you are supporting
in this process, which anyprogram shows that if people are
coming back for more, it'sobviously having some form of
(17:56):
impact in their world, in theirquality world or in their
educational leadership world.
So it's great and that's what'sexciting about the work in
terms of the energy that youboth you can see I was going to
go further into it can see thereis such a positive change.
What positive change haveeither of you seen in yourself
(18:20):
as leaders with this, withreflective practice, in, now
that you have obviously trainedin this space, either of you?
Andrew (18:34):
For me.
I think I think some of thelearning that I've taken from
the program I apply daily interms of the way I work with my
middle leadership team.
We don't engage in formalsupervision, but certainly the
questioning that I use theability to get my middle leaders
(18:56):
to reflect on some of theirpractices I would use on a daily
basis.
I've spoken about this for meis legacy work and systems
leadership, which is hugelyexciting.
How do we leave the systembetter than we found it?
This is a real opportunity todo that.
(19:19):
I often say to people I don'tknow how inexperienced
principals are doing this job.
The pressures and the demandson the work are so different to
when I started being a principal.
That's hugely exciting for me.
(19:40):
This is the stuff right.
This is the legacy piece wherewe have the opportunity to
provide a space that is notcoaching, that is not mentoring,
but will actually strengthenthe system or strengthen
leadership capacity for peoplethat undergo supervision and
(20:01):
will leave the system in abetter place.
I don't think that that's everbeen done.
The evidence does show us thatfor people that engage in
supervision, it's highlyrestorative.
So it reduces burnout.
It hooks into your core valuesof why you want to be a school
(20:21):
leader and read night purposeand passion.
That is not in your pricemaking stuff up.
That is the academic researcharound reflective supervision.
For me that's really exciting.
That's regenerating in itselfthat I might have that
opportunity to provide thatsystem's leadership and that
(20:43):
legacy piece for me.
How do I make the system better?
How do I impact on people inother schools?
Drew J (20:52):
Yes, it's come through clearly from both of you
Thinking and also the benefitsto reflective practice or
reflective supervision For thosewho are listening.
It's a bit of an open-endedquestion here.
Where would you like to seereflective practice?
(21:12):
Importantly for those who areconsidering reflective practice,
what advice would you give tothose listening?
Andrew (21:22):
Yes, and I like the analogy.
The supervisors are there towalk with people.
We will not solve your problemsfor you, but we will ask the
right questions that allow youto dig into your beliefs around
issues, your beliefs around yourproblems of practice and help
you find your own way forward.
(21:42):
Non-judgmental, and how would I?
Where do I see it going?
Is that the second question?
That's a huge question, right?
If I had the decision-makingpowers, there would be certain
(22:06):
people that are already workingwith supervisors employed by the
body to start working with ourleaders across the system.
I understand that these thingstake time and there's risk
involved, but I think if we wantto build a great education
(22:32):
system, one that hassustainability and longevity, we
have to think differently aboutthe way we do things.
Some things are not fit forpurpose anymore.
This is fit for purpose If wetalk about principle well-being,
if we talk about burnout, if wetalk about improved capacity.
(22:54):
Reflective supervision isevidence to build all those to
reduce burnout.
So where would I see it going?
I would see that all principalshave the opportunity to engage
in supervision as part of theirprofessional.
I don't know hours or whatever,but I think there's actually a
(23:19):
real space there for probablyprincipals in their first five
years of principalship, becauseyou're just learning so much
there and that's and that'sprobably the crucial need.
Where people go, you know theyget into the Principalship.
They go wow, this is hard rightand it's always been hard right
(23:40):
.
So they can either dig on thoseinternal resources and go well,
I've got to get better at doinghard and some of us can and
some of us fall over and go.
That's too hard.
I'm going to go elsewhere andyou know, we know that there's
people leaving right.
We know that there's Principalsleaving our system to go to
Deputy Principals' job, to goback to Classroom and Teaching
jobs, because the Principalshipis hard, but we have an
(24:02):
opportunity here to provide thatsupport that does sustain
people in this job for a longtime.
So that's where I'd say itgoing, but that's about my pay
rate, unfortunately.
Shanti (24:17):
And for me the benefit has been in finding that third
space, being able to come homeand let the any of the stresses
of the day go, better work-lifebalance and be fully present
when I go home.
So it's the ability to know howto switch off, not sweat the
(24:38):
small stuff, and I have astronger sense of resilience and
well-being because I'm moreaware of what my triggers are or
the things that actually usedto stress me or keep me awake at
night.
So I've got greater insightsinto how I function and how I
process and I would never havehad that if I'd never gone
through that the process ofreflective supervision.
(25:01):
So it's really interesting.
Like if someone has burnout andstress, you go to a counsellor.
If someone wants to developspecific skill sets around the
standards the professionalteaching standards or the
principal standard or evenanything around research you can
go and see a coach or a mentor.
And that reflective supervisionis about really having that
(25:21):
balcony overview of what you doas a leader and your influence
and your impact.
And that's something that'sreally different because you
know in our job you're verytime-haul.
It's really hard to find timein your daily practice, in your
workspace, to actually have thetime to critically reflect.
That reflection is where youactually spark your mojo and
(25:46):
know why you do what you do.
Drew J (25:49):
Yeah, well said both of you in terms of it, and it is
the unknown space, but it's anexciting space to explore
because of the legacy work thatAndrew and you were as well
shunned.
And I really love that analogythat you were saying about the
Welsh coming back and cleaningthemselves up before they are in
(26:10):
the right headspace.
It's important for people, forour leaders, to be in the right
headspace so they can leadeffectively, and the research
and evidence going back to theresearch and evidence is showing
this is implemented in othersectors, in other social sectors
.
Shanti (26:31):
One of the most beautiful metaphors that I've
learnt from our ReflectiveSupervision is this concept or
this metaphor of pit-head time,and it came out of the Welsh
coal mines where, instead of youknow people leading the mines
going home in a dirty state aspart of the industry, they gave
them time to wash, clean up, putold clothes so that when they
(26:55):
went home they are actuallyready to be with their family.
So pit-head time is time in yourworkplace to clean up and to
get yourself ready to go backhome and be fully present.
To me that's really importantfor morale building and we talk
about critical reflection beingimportant in education and yet
(27:17):
we never provide that time forleaders to reflect.
So what a great opportunity inReflective Supervision to look
at how you deal with things,talk about it and get different
perspectives on that.
And I think that's where thestrength is, because often the
things that keep us awake atnight are the things that are
unspoken, the things that you'reholding on to and you're not
(27:39):
even aware or sort of ruminatingin your mind.
So I think pit-head time reallysupports wellbeing.
I think critical reflection isessential for leadership,
innovation and ongoingdevelopment, and I think that
that rejuvenation, mojo sparkthat you can get from Reflective
Supervision is something thatcan help us, and we've been
(27:59):
through a lot of reforms overthe last few years.
We've gone through COVID.
This is something that is atrauma-informed practice that
enhances optimal leadershippractice.
Drew J (28:11):
Absolutely, and we are in the people industry, as we
know, and it's important to lookafter our people.
Look, both of you.
Thank you for your time todayin terms of giving us an
overview and the understandingand the important work this is,
and I think this is a startingpoint of something really
exciting through the New SouthWales PPA.
(28:32):
We can explore further throughthe professional learning suites
.
Any last bits of advice I thinkit sounds like your is that the
books are full or if anyone'sgoing, I really would love to
connect with these.
Either of you, where would wepoint our people listening today
?
Or, if you're thinking aboutconnecting to Shanti or Andrew,
(28:54):
where could we go to to connectfurther?
Andrew (29:01):
It's mandatory in health for some professions.
Shanti (29:04):
Yeah, anything in the helping profession, because you
know it's the people, it's thecurrency of connecting with
people.
That's so important I think.
Connect with the New SouthWales PPA through Drew to we can
do, you know, groups,supervision, we can do.
Individual Anyone who'sinterested in ongoing growth and
(29:27):
development.
I mean, I've actually got atestimonial from one of my
principles I was working withand is it okay for me to share?
Drew J (29:36):
Yeah, if they're fine for you to share, that's
absolutely fine, yeah.
Shanti (29:41):
In confidence.
He's written.
You know the impact ofreflective supervision and he's
written here.
It has empowered me torecognise and navigate my own
emotional responses, fostering amore empathic and connected
approach to my leadership.
I've cultivated a moreinclusive and collaborative work
environment, drawing upon thereflective techniques and
(30:02):
insights gained from oursupervision sessions.
Colleagues have noted animproved ability to navigate
challenges, incorporating athoughtful and strategic
approach, informed by thelessons learned during
supervision.
Within my family and friends,there's been a noticeable
positive shift.
Loved ones have remarked on myincreased capacity for active
(30:23):
listening and a more thoughtfulconsideration of diverse
perspectives.
What I, what colleagues areexperiencing as a result of
supervision is greater personaland professional capacity, which
is just amazing.
Drew J (30:41):
The fact that they've taken that time to share that
without any prompting is sopowerful, Shanti.
So look, thank you for sharingthat.
That's so powerful in terms ofthe authenticity of the work and
the impact of the work as well.
Thank you for sharing, Andrew.
Andrew (30:58):
Look well, I've got a testimonial here also from
someone that I've worked with.
They touched by sitting hereand says as a result of
participation in reflectivesupervision and education, I
reshaped my approach toleadership with a distinct,
conscious focus on the dynamicsof my interactions with others.
Through dedicated reflection,I've gained a heightened
awareness of my own actions,words and emotions, recognising
(31:20):
their profound impact on theactions of those around me.
This consciousness has providedme with a valuable framework
for personal reflection andencouraging a shift in focus
towards the first person, theeye in my reflections.
The effects of thisintrospective journey have been
noticed by my principal, who hasobserved a notable elevation in
my emotional intelligence,recognising a more advanced and
(31:40):
empathetic style of leadershipthat is focused on empowering
others.
Colleagues in middle leadershippositions have remarked on the
maturation of my leadership,highlighting actions that have
actively supported them inrespective roles.
Reflecting on this experience,what sets me apart now is not
just a refined set of leadershipskills, but a deeper
understanding of the intricatelink between personal awareness
(32:01):
and effective leadership.
The conscious effort to use eyeand reflection has fostered a
more authentic and nuancedself-awareness, enabling me to
navigate conflicts in a personaldynamics with expertise.
In essence, this opportunityhas not only transformed my
leadership style, but has alsocontributed to a positive effect
throughout the school.
The clarity my leadership,coupled with an emphasis on
(32:22):
empowering others, has created amore collaborative and dynamic
work environment.
As I continue to evolve myleadership capacity, I look
forward to building upon thisfoundation of self-awareness and
empathy, confident that thelessons learned in this
reflective space will continueto shape my leadership practice
for the better.
Six sessions I did with thatlady, six hours of her
(32:43):
professional life, for thatlevel of change, why wouldn't
you engage?
Shanti (32:50):
Thank you, Drew, and thank you to the NSW PPA for
giving us this scholarshipopportunity.
We are so lucky and it's justwonderful that we can contribute
back to our profession.
Thank you.
Andrew (33:01):
Yeah, I just reiterate what Shani said.
It was when the opportunityarose.
It was a little bit daunting,but I am so grateful that we had
the opportunity and we wentthrough it, because it is
significantly transformational,not just for myself but for the
people that I can work with.
Shanti (33:21):
Thanks, One other thing about reflective professional
supervision is that it actuallyprevents leaders from going down
a problem scenario becauseyou're helping them be wiser and
more constructive in how theywork with their teams, which
(33:42):
means that making those off thecuff, reactive decisions becomes
rarer.
So you're actually supportingthat optimal leadership
conversation and practice andreflection before they do
something, not after, when it'stoo late.
Andrew (33:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
It builds your internaldecision making matrix so that
you can very quickly evaluate asituation, identify the multiple
players in that situation andthe perspectives and how things
will land before you makedecisions.
And it just gives you so muchconfidence in your decision
(34:19):
making and the impact that thatwill have on all the players in
a complex organisation like aschool.
Drew J (34:26):
So if you're a principal or educational leader
looking to enhance your skills,this is a place for you.
This season, we'll beshowcasing a wide range of
professional learningexperiences designed with your
success in mind.
We'll continue to focus on thevalues of wellbeing, leadership,
(34:48):
growth, as well as optimisingschool operations.
Curious to learn more about ourofferings?
You'll find our full catalogueon our website at https://www.
nswppa.
org.
au/catalogue.
Or you can easily book yournext professional learning
experience at https://www.
nswppa.
org.
au/ learning dash calendar, dashbookings.
(35:16):
If you or your network isinterested in further
professional learning throughthe New South Wales Primary
Principles djanetzki@nswpnswppa.
org.
au, reach out to me directly .
I look forward to hearing fromyou soon.
Hello and welcome to season two of the Principal
Learning Podcast.
If you're a principal oreducational leader looking to
enhance your skills, this is aplace for you, so let's get into
it.
Let's embark on this learningjourney together.
In 2023, principals AndrewPryce and Shanti Clements, who
(00:20):
are also members of the NSW PPALeadership Standing Committee,
were successful in gaining ascholarship through the NSW PPA
with the support of BFXFurniture.
In our discussion today, theyshare their knowledge,
excitement and thoughts on theimportance of this new
initiative to the educationsector.
It's called Reflective Practicefor School Leaders.
(00:43):
Andrew Shati, thanks so muchfor being here today.
Could you please brieflyintroduce yourselves and your
respective roles in education?
Andrew (00:53):
Okay, I'll go first, Drew, thanks.
So I am the Principal of amedium-sized primary school in
the region of the NSW inNewcastle, situated in, I guess,
in the inner city, for 50 to500 kids.
I've been a principal for Imean almost 16th year now as a
(01:15):
school Principal, having startedmy career in Western Sydney
Mount Druitt region, out toLightning Ridge so far outback
NSW town at school To TauriPublic School with approximately
90% Aboriginal and Indigenouspopulation and then to Raymond
Terrace Public School beforebecoming principal at Islington
(01:38):
Public School.
I'm at Glendale East PublicSchool now and the School I'm at
I think that's given me a verydiverse range of skills and
understandings of the differentcontexts of education in NSW and
the communities and the clientsthat we serve.
Yeah, so that's my career ineducation, recently completed
(01:59):
Master's Degree throughUniversity of Wollongong in
Educational Leadership and lastyear was participant in the
Reflective Supervision inEducation Program.
Drew J (02:09):
Yeah, fantastic, Andrew , just shows in terms of the
diversity and the range ofexperience you have and here we
are which we will go intoreflective practice.
But before we do, Shanti, canyou give us, our audience, a
little bit of a background aboutyourself?
Shanti (02:26):
Yeah, thanks, Drew.
So this is my 30th year ineducation and I've been very
lucky to be principal of twoschools.
The first school I was at asprincipal was in Beauty Point in
Mosman, and now I'm at SevenHills West, which is in Western
Sydney.
I've been a Principal schoolleader, as well as in state
(02:48):
office as an acting director forleadership and teacher quality
and, similar to Andrew, I'mreally passionate about
educational leadership.
I've done a Master's ineducational leadership and I've
also done a PhD in educationalleadership looking at career
span leadership and the impactand the influence of school
principals in buildinghigh-performing teams and
(03:11):
uplifting their school cultures.
Drew J (03:13):
And you're both scholarship participants through
the NSW Primary PrinciplesAssociation and I've really seen
a real energy come through fromboth of you.
I guess let's for thoseuninformed in our discussion
today.
We're going to be going intoreflective practice with
reflective practice, and feelfree in terms of I'm sure you'll
(03:35):
probably want to talk over eachother, but I'm sure you'll take
turns in that process.
Tell our audience what isreflective practice and,
secondly, why is it crucial forour school leaders and I'll
leave that open to either of youto interject?
Shanti (03:51):
Andrew, do you want to go first, or would you like me?
Andrew (03:54):
No, I can go first.
I'm going to go first.
Look, it's really difficult todistill into one or two words
the what is reflective practice,but if I had to do that
succinctly, I would say thatreflective practice is the sole
work for educators.
(04:15):
We spend an incredible amountof time looking at our roles and
focusing on the technicalaspects of management, some
leadership, I guess, policydevelopment strategy but this,
from a reflective supervision,is the sole work.
(04:36):
It's the opportunity to workwith the leader to really dig
into what they're about, theirvalues, their problems, and
provide that safe space that Iguess gets them to reflect on
who they are as a leader andprovide them with, I guess, the
opportunities to explore wherethey are and how they're going
to lead their schools toimprovement.
(04:58):
So for me, it's the sole workand not the role work.
Shanti (05:02):
And then, building on what Andrew's saying,
professional reflectivesupervision is an opportunity
for all of us in our professionto have important touch points
in our career that re-spark ourmojo.
It's supporting us in optimalleadership practice as well as
being proactive in alleviatingworkplace stress and reducing
(05:26):
the possibility of burnout.
So it's very, very differentfrom coaching or mentoring or
even, let's say, counselling.
It's not picking up the piecesafter someone's fallen apart or
is experiencing burnout.
It's about making sure thatyou're optimally self-reflecting
and that you're aware, as aleader, on how to rejuvenate
(05:47):
yourself and how you canactually work constructively
with your teams.
And the model of this reallycomes from the clinical
profession, where nurses,doctors, therapists, every month
have the opportunity to reflecton their practice and the
research shows that it keepspeople motivated and it keeps
(06:07):
best practice research, as wellas leadership and workplace
practice at the optimal level.
Drew J (06:16):
Yeah, so you're going to research.
It seems, from our perspective,through the New South Wales PPA
and through education, this isa new space for reflective
practice supervision.
Either of you could you giveour listeners ways in which you
(06:38):
said it's not at that pointy endwhere it's a little bit late
for things or things to try, andwhere would it actually?
Where could participants pickup this reflective supervision
from either of you?
Did I have to be, for example,at a leadership role?
(06:59):
Or who was this targeted for?
Who would this benefit?
This work?
Shanti (07:05):
Well, you can be a teacher.
You can also be a leader.
The importance about thisaround the restorative approach
is that they have a metaphorcalled the three-legged stool.
So it can be formative, it canbe normative and it can be
restorative, and so it can focusnot only on your teaching or
your leadership well-being, butyour growth and development at
(07:27):
where your personal level isneeded.
So it's a very safe place togain clarity and a broader
perspective on work-relatedissues.
And when they talk about thethree-legged stool, often you
can use coaching and mentoringto help support someone in a
formative way, or you can usecoaching and mentoring to
(07:50):
support that normative thingwhich is the standards-basic.
This is different.
It's not about being aparticular coach or mentor.
It's about stepping in wheresupervision and that reflection
is needed.
So there might be times whenyou might need to be restorative
and supportive, or might betimes when you need to really
focus on your job and yourethical practice.
(08:12):
What do you think, andrew, inyour experience of it?
Andrew (08:19):
Yeah, supervision is positioned very differently in
terms of the restorative natureof it.
I think that there is a.
Well, I don't think theevidence has shown us that
school leaders and a lot ofpeople that work in social
industry are actually screamingout for support in their
(08:42):
practice.
There is nothing like it ineducation, where there is the
space to, I guess, explore yourideas, your understandings
safely and have thoseconversations with a colleague
who is trusted.
And you know it's aboutsupervision, is about the
(09:05):
supervisory.
It's the only time in the monthwhere you get to sit down for
an hour as a school leader andtalk about yourself and your
problems and decide your waysforward, having a good
understanding of all, I guess,the risks, the benefits, the
perspectives and how that willland once you've decided to move
(09:26):
forward.
It's a unique opportunity therehas been.
You know I guess we're talkingSharif and I have, you know, got
the best part of 60 years ofschool leadership experience
between us.
Drew J (09:38):
It's exciting the words , though, for those uninformed
supervision comes across as abit of a scary word or some sort
of accountability.
Can you clarify that for us?
So why would I want to go as aparticipant to be part of?
Sounds exciting, but I'm in theback of my mind.
(09:59):
I'm like I'm not going to giveall to you here, because I have
a, I'm a principal, for example,and I've got my line items and
so forth.
Can you give some reassuranceor processes from how can that
be a safe place for people whoare interested in going to
either of you in this work?
Shanti (10:23):
Yeah.
So the word itself when youfirst.
You know we all found when wewere doing the program at Sydney
University, none of us likedthe word supervision because
we've got this very hierarchical, traditional, semantic
understanding of it.
However, if you sort of breakit down like super vision, so
it's about seeing a biggerpicture, a more panoramic view
(10:47):
of yourself as a leader and yourimpact with your school teams
and your community.
So super vision is about super,seeing that bigger picture,
having a large, broaderperspective.
And the good and the wonderfulthing about it is that it uses
metaphor.
There's a whole range of thingsthat you can use.
(11:09):
You can put a spotlight onissues you can walk with.
You know, walk the journey.
There's the Mobius strip.
There's so many differentmetaphors that can help bring
out this reflective super visionof yourself as a leader.
For example, sometimes in mysessions I've been using an
indigenous yarning map, or Imight use music, narrative
(11:33):
reflection, gestalt journaling.
There's so many different toolsthat you can use in reflective
practice.
The main thing is it's criticalreflection on your leadership
practice.
Andrew (11:49):
And I to probably be wrong on that, I wouldn't be
used.
Word supervision, I mean thatis the technical term, but a lot
of the time when I'm explainingto people what it is, it is
really critical.
Reflection is the space for youto reflect on the challenges of
your work and the importance ofit.
(12:13):
Having a colleague principal asyour supervisor is that there
is no accountability, there isno line management, there is no
repercussion, there is no.
That person said something Ididn't like, so that is the
actual importance of you knowpeople that are somewhat removed
(12:33):
from the supervisorrelationship being supervisors.
So, yeah, for me it's reallyabout that space to reflect on
your practice with somebody thatis not going to ever hold it
against you, it's not going tolook at you and think, oh geez,
you're really struggling in that.
In this job, people can bevulnerable and really get into
(12:56):
the stuff that's causing themchallenges and that's certainly
been my experience as asupervisor is that very
experienced principals open upvery quickly because they're
desperate for this space to beable to do, to be able to
understand themselves and toreflect on how they become
better.
Shanti (13:14):
Yeah, and in building a watch Andrew's talking about.
You know, initially when wewere doing the pilot, we needed
to see two principal colleagueswith word of mouth Mine grew
from two to six people and theprincipals that I am doing
reflective leadershipsupervision with.
They're experienced principals.
(13:36):
This is something that mature,experienced principals are
calling out for, because oftenthey're the forgotten voice.
A lot of the focus on educationsystems is in the aspiring
leaders and the novice leaders,but those that are experienced
also need to connect and yourleader identity keeps developing
(13:57):
across the careers.
Back, and that's the beauty ofreflective practice You're
actually helping people getclear on their worldview, their
impact, their leadership vision,their values and, as a result
of that, you're actuallybuilding their self awareness
and their personal andprofessional resilience in the
process.
Drew J (14:15):
Yeah, great, chanti and Andrew.
Similar numbers for you as well?
Andrew (14:28):
During the program I took on supervision of three
people.
Minimum was one.
Two would have been better tosatisfy the course requirements
and get the hours.
But I had another third personcome to me and say I've heard
about supervision from thisperson, do you have some time
and space for me?
And I made space for thatperson.
(14:49):
Interestingly, I've continuedon with those people into this
year.
They've also seen significantvalue in it that will continue
to grow.
By word of mouth, I think yeah,I don't know how I'm going to
say it.
Drew J (15:11):
That's great.
So, in terms of for theuninformed, is it to
differentiate the point withcoaching?
Is there a or are we stillworking through a procedure of X
amount of time?
What am I looking if I was tolook at as a principal?
And the words you're saying?
It's really inspiring, I'mhooked into.
(15:32):
What am I signing up for?
Am I signing up for a threesession?
I give, I guess, a framework tohow this works, to what
investment of time so I can getthe best out of myself as a
principal working with either ofyou.
Shanti (15:47):
Yeah, so typically when you do reflective supervision,
it's not coaching.
So you're not going into thesessions with outcomes that you
want to achieve, because whatyou're going to be focusing on
in reflective supervision iswhat comes up, what arises in
that work week that is importantfor you to speak about and
(16:08):
typically people will see, willhave supervision, either every
fortnight or maybe once a month.
For us, we not only do wesupervise, we all receive
supervision.
So that's part of thecommitment to professional
practice.
We have to be authentically inthat space where we're receiving
it, as well as supportingcolleagues in that space.
(16:32):
So it's not like coaching ormentoring where you have
outcomes that you're workingtowards.
Instead, you talk about thingsthat arise.
You then want to keep areflection of the impact of how
you've managed that situationand looking at your own
emotional responses, with a realfocus on what they call the
unseen others.
Those unseen others, for us aseducators, might be our teaching
(16:56):
colleagues, might be theparents, might be the students.
So the impact of our leadershipon those unseen others, which
actually strengthens yourdiversity and your ability to
communicate and reallyunderstand your influence on
others.
Does that help explain that alittle bit more too?
Drew J (17:13):
Yes, it does.
It's trying to support forthose uninformed about what the
reflective supervision is and Iguess in terms of the
differentiating point is forthose uninformed again, what is
the difference if I was to goPrincipal was to seek out the
services that you are offering,what is the point of difference
(17:34):
and what can the participantbenefit from?
So it's really differentiatingthat to the coaching model here.
You've kept all of your currentpeople that you are supporting
in this process, which anyprogram shows that if people are
coming back for more, it'sobviously having some form of
(17:56):
impact in their world, in theirquality world or in their
educational leadership world.
So it's great and that's what'sexciting about the work in
terms of the energy that youboth you can see I was going to
go further into it can see thereis such a positive change.
What positive change haveeither of you seen in yourself
(18:20):
as leaders with this, withreflective practice, in, now
that you have obviously trainedin this space, either of you?
Andrew (18:34):
For me.
I think I think some of thelearning that I've taken from
the program I apply daily interms of the way I work with my
middle leadership team.
We don't engage in formalsupervision, but certainly the
questioning that I use theability to get my middle leaders
(18:56):
to reflect on some of theirpractices I would use on a daily
basis.
I've spoken about this for meis legacy work and systems
leadership, which is hugelyexciting.
How do we leave the systembetter than we found it?
This is a real opportunity todo that.
(19:19):
I often say to people I don'tknow how inexperienced
principals are doing this job.
The pressures and the demandson the work are so different to
when I started being a principal.
That's hugely exciting for me.
(19:40):
This is the stuff right.
This is the legacy piece wherewe have the opportunity to
provide a space that is notcoaching, that is not mentoring,
but will actually strengthenthe system or strengthen
leadership capacity for peoplethat undergo supervision and
(20:01):
will leave the system in abetter place.
I don't think that that's everbeen done.
The evidence does show us thatfor people that engage in
supervision, it's highlyrestorative.
So it reduces burnout.
It hooks into your core valuesof why you want to be a school
(20:21):
leader and read night purposeand passion.
That is not in your pricemaking stuff up.
That is the academic researcharound reflective supervision.
For me that's really exciting.
That's regenerating in itselfthat I might have that
opportunity to provide thatsystem's leadership and that
(20:43):
legacy piece for me.
How do I make the system better?
How do I impact on people inother schools?
Drew J (20:52):
Yes, it's come through clearly from both of you
Thinking and also the benefitsto reflective practice or
reflective supervision For thosewho are listening.
It's a bit of an open-endedquestion here.
Where would you like to seereflective practice?
(21:12):
Importantly for those who areconsidering reflective practice,
what advice would you give tothose listening?
Andrew (21:22):
Yes, and I like the analogy.
The supervisors are there towalk with people.
We will not solve your problemsfor you, but we will ask the
right questions that allow youto dig into your beliefs around
issues, your beliefs around yourproblems of practice and help
you find your own way forward.
(21:42):
Non-judgmental, and how would I?
Where do I see it going?
Is that the second question?
That's a huge question, right?
If I had the decision-makingpowers, there would be certain
(22:06):
people that are already workingwith supervisors employed by the
body to start working with ourleaders across the system.
I understand that these thingstake time and there's risk
involved, but I think if we wantto build a great education
(22:32):
system, one that hassustainability and longevity, we
have to think differently aboutthe way we do things.
Some things are not fit forpurpose anymore.
This is fit for purpose If wetalk about principle well-being,
if we talk about burnout, if wetalk about improved capacity.
(22:54):
Reflective supervision isevidence to build all those to
reduce burnout.
So where would I see it going?
I would see that all principalshave the opportunity to engage
in supervision as part of theirprofessional.
I don't know hours or whatever,but I think there's actually a
(23:19):
real space there for probablyprincipals in their first five
years of principalship, becauseyou're just learning so much
there and that's and that'sprobably the crucial need.
Where people go, you know theyget into the Principalship.
They go wow, this is hard rightand it's always been hard right
(23:40):
.
So they can either dig on thoseinternal resources and go well,
I've got to get better at doinghard and some of us can and
some of us fall over and go.
That's too hard.
I'm going to go elsewhere andyou know, we know that there's
people leaving right.
We know that there's Principalsleaving our system to go to
Deputy Principals' job, to goback to Classroom and Teaching
jobs, because the Principalshipis hard, but we have an
(24:02):
opportunity here to provide thatsupport that does sustain
people in this job for a longtime.
So that's where I'd say itgoing, but that's about my pay
rate, unfortunately.
Shanti (24:17):
And for me the benefit has been in finding that third
space, being able to come homeand let the any of the stresses
of the day go, better work-lifebalance and be fully present
when I go home.
So it's the ability to know howto switch off, not sweat the
(24:38):
small stuff, and I have astronger sense of resilience and
well-being because I'm moreaware of what my triggers are or
the things that actually usedto stress me or keep me awake at
night.
So I've got greater insightsinto how I function and how I
process and I would never havehad that if I'd never gone
through that the process ofreflective supervision.
(25:01):
So it's really interesting.
Like if someone has burnout andstress, you go to a counsellor.
If someone wants to developspecific skill sets around the
standards the professionalteaching standards or the
principal standard or evenanything around research you can
go and see a coach or a mentor.
And that reflective supervisionis about really having that
(25:21):
balcony overview of what you doas a leader and your influence
and your impact.
And that's something that'sreally different because you
know in our job you're verytime-haul.
It's really hard to find timein your daily practice, in your
workspace, to actually have thetime to critically reflect.
That reflection is where youactually spark your mojo and
(25:46):
know why you do what you do.
Drew J (25:49):
Yeah, well said both of you in terms of it, and it is
the unknown space, but it's anexciting space to explore
because of the legacy work thatAndrew and you were as well
shunned.
And I really love that analogythat you were saying about the
Welsh coming back and cleaningthemselves up before they are in
(26:10):
the right headspace.
It's important for people, forour leaders, to be in the right
headspace so they can leadeffectively, and the research
and evidence going back to theresearch and evidence is showing
this is implemented in othersectors, in other social sectors
.
Shanti (26:31):
One of the most beautiful metaphors that I've
learnt from our ReflectiveSupervision is this concept or
this metaphor of pit-head time,and it came out of the Welsh
coal mines where, instead of youknow people leading the mines
going home in a dirty state aspart of the industry, they gave
them time to wash, clean up, putold clothes so that when they
(26:55):
went home they are actuallyready to be with their family.
So pit-head time is time in yourworkplace to clean up and to
get yourself ready to go backhome and be fully present.
To me that's really importantfor morale building and we talk
about critical reflection beingimportant in education and yet
(27:17):
we never provide that time forleaders to reflect.
So what a great opportunity inReflective Supervision to look
at how you deal with things,talk about it and get different
perspectives on that.
And I think that's where thestrength is, because often the
things that keep us awake atnight are the things that are
unspoken, the things that you'reholding on to and you're not
(27:39):
even aware or sort of ruminatingin your mind.
So I think pit-head time reallysupports wellbeing.
I think critical reflection isessential for leadership,
innovation and ongoingdevelopment, and I think that
that rejuvenation, mojo sparkthat you can get from Reflective
Supervision is something thatcan help us, and we've been
(27:59):
through a lot of reforms overthe last few years.
We've gone through COVID.
This is something that is atrauma-informed practice that
enhances optimal leadershippractice.
Drew J (28:11):
Absolutely, and we are in the people industry, as we
know, and it's important to lookafter our people.
Look, both of you.
Thank you for your time todayin terms of giving us an
overview and the understandingand the important work this is,
and I think this is a startingpoint of something really
exciting through the New SouthWales PPA.
(28:32):
We can explore further throughthe professional learning suites
.
Any last bits of advice I thinkit sounds like your is that the
books are full or if anyone'sgoing, I really would love to
connect with these.
Either of you, where would wepoint our people listening today
?
Or, if you're thinking aboutconnecting to Shanti or Andrew,
(28:54):
where could we go to to connectfurther?
Andrew (29:01):
It's mandatory in health for some professions.
Shanti (29:04):
Yeah, anything in the helping profession, because you
know it's the people, it's thecurrency of connecting with
people.
That's so important I think.
Connect with the New SouthWales PPA through Drew to we can
do, you know, groups,supervision, we can do.
Individual Anyone who'sinterested in ongoing growth and
(29:27):
development.
I mean, I've actually got atestimonial from one of my
principles I was working withand is it okay for me to share?
Drew J (29:36):
Yeah, if they're fine for you to share, that's
absolutely fine, yeah.
Shanti (29:41):
In confidence.
He's written.
You know the impact ofreflective supervision and he's
written here.
It has empowered me torecognise and navigate my own
emotional responses, fostering amore empathic and connected
approach to my leadership.
I've cultivated a moreinclusive and collaborative work
environment, drawing upon thereflective techniques and
(30:02):
insights gained from oursupervision sessions.
Colleagues have noted animproved ability to navigate
challenges, incorporating athoughtful and strategic
approach, informed by thelessons learned during
supervision.
Within my family and friends,there's been a noticeable
positive shift.
Loved ones have remarked on myincreased capacity for active
(30:23):
listening and a more thoughtfulconsideration of diverse
perspectives.
What I, what colleagues areexperiencing as a result of
supervision is greater personaland professional capacity, which
is just amazing.
Drew J (30:41):
The fact that they've taken that time to share that
without any prompting is sopowerful, Shanti.
So look, thank you for sharingthat.
That's so powerful in terms ofthe authenticity of the work and
the impact of the work as well.
Thank you for sharing, Andrew.
Andrew (30:58):
Look well, I've got a testimonial here also from
someone that I've worked with.
They touched by sitting hereand says as a result of
participation in reflectivesupervision and education, I
reshaped my approach toleadership with a distinct,
conscious focus on the dynamicsof my interactions with others.
Through dedicated reflection,I've gained a heightened
awareness of my own actions,words and emotions, recognising
(31:20):
their profound impact on theactions of those around me.
This consciousness has providedme with a valuable framework
for personal reflection andencouraging a shift in focus
towards the first person, theeye in my reflections.
The effects of thisintrospective journey have been
noticed by my principal, who hasobserved a notable elevation in
my emotional intelligence,recognising a more advanced and
(31:40):
empathetic style of leadershipthat is focused on empowering
others.
Colleagues in middle leadershippositions have remarked on the
maturation of my leadership,highlighting actions that have
actively supported them inrespective roles.
Reflecting on this experience,what sets me apart now is not
just a refined set of leadershipskills, but a deeper
understanding of the intricatelink between personal awareness
(32:01):
and effective leadership.
The conscious effort to use eyeand reflection has fostered a
more authentic and nuancedself-awareness, enabling me to
navigate conflicts in a personaldynamics with expertise.
In essence, this opportunityhas not only transformed my
leadership style, but has alsocontributed to a positive effect
throughout the school.
The clarity my leadership,coupled with an emphasis on
(32:22):
empowering others, has created amore collaborative and dynamic
work environment.
As I continue to evolve myleadership capacity, I look
forward to building upon thisfoundation of self-awareness and
empathy, confident that thelessons learned in this
reflective space will continueto shape my leadership practice
for the better.
Six sessions I did with thatlady, six hours of her
(32:43):
professional life, for thatlevel of change, why wouldn't
you engage?
Shanti (32:50):
Thank you, Drew, and thank you to the NSW PPA for
giving us this scholarshipopportunity.
We are so lucky and it's justwonderful that we can contribute
back to our profession.
Thank you.
Andrew (33:01):
Yeah, I just reiterate what Shani said.
It was when the opportunityarose.
It was a little bit daunting,but I am so grateful that we had
the opportunity and we wentthrough it, because it is
significantly transformational,not just for myself but for the
people that I can work with.
Shanti (33:21):
Thanks, One other thing about reflective professional
supervision is that it actuallyprevents leaders from going down
a problem scenario becauseyou're helping them be wiser and
more constructive in how theywork with their teams, which
(33:42):
means that making those off thecuff, reactive decisions becomes
rarer.
So you're actually supportingthat optimal leadership
conversation and practice andreflection before they do
something, not after, when it'stoo late.
Andrew (33:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
It builds your internaldecision making matrix so that
you can very quickly evaluate asituation, identify the multiple
players in that situation andthe perspectives and how things
will land before you makedecisions.
And it just gives you so muchconfidence in your decision
(34:19):
making and the impact that thatwill have on all the players in
a complex organisation like aschool.
Drew J (34:26):
So if you're a principal or educational leader
looking to enhance your skills,this is a place for you.
This season, we'll beshowcasing a wide range of
professional learningexperiences designed with your
success in mind.
We'll continue to focus on thevalues of wellbeing, leadership,
(34:48):
growth, as well as optimisingschool operations.
Curious to learn more about ourofferings?
You'll find our full catalogueon our website at https://www.
nswppa.
org.
au/catalogue.
Or you can easily book yournext professional learning
experience at https://www.
nswppa.
org.
au/ learning dash calendar, dashbookings.
(35:16):
If you or your network isinterested in further
professional learning throughthe New South Wales Primary
Principles djanetzki@nswpnswppa.
org.
au, reach out to me directly .
I look forward to hearing fromyou soon.
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