November 4, 2025 • 45 mins
Most contractors think they have a sales problem. Danielle Putnam knows it’s usually a pricing problem. As the CEO of The New Flat Rate, Danielle has helped service companies across the U.S., Canada, and Australia add billions in revenue by turning guesswork into systems that sell for you.
She grew up in the trades, handing out flyers for her dad’s company at seven years old, and later built a business that changed how contractors price, present, and profit. Her five-option menu system replaces pressure with psychology, helping technicians sell more without ever “selling.”
In this episode, Danielle breaks down why most pricing models quietly kill profit, how to fix your billable hour, and what happens when you finally charge what your work is worth. She also shares lessons from running a family business, introducing EOS, and turning chaos into confidence through structure and accountability.
It’s a candid look at how clear pricing creates predictable profit—and why confidence in your numbers is the real competitive edge.
What You Will Learn in This Episode
• Why most contractors price themselves broke without realizing it
• How the five-option menu system increases close rates and ticket size
• The psychology behind why customers buy the middle option
• How to fix your billable hour and stop bleeding margin
• Why technicians don’t hate selling—they hate pressure
• How to align pricing with process for predictable profit
• The EOS tools Danielle used to fix communication and accountability
• How to turn a family business into a scalable, transferable company
• Why clarity in pricing is the foundation for confidence and growth
More From Profit & Grit
Book your complimentary Financial Insight Session with Tyler Martin, fractional CFO for home services and the trades, here:
http://cfointrocall.com
Learn more at http://cfomadeeasy.com
Follow the show for weekly interviews with HVAC, plumbing, and home service owners and experts who share what it really takes to grow, scale, and profit in the trades.
If you listen to any of the following shows, we’re sure you’ll love ours too!
To The Point Home Services Podcast, Toolbox for the Trades, Masters of Home Service, Home Service Business Coach With David Moerman, BlueCollar.CEO, The Home Service Expert Podcast, Next Level Pros, Blue Collar Business Podcast, Home Service Millionaire with Mike Andes, The Contractor Fight with Tom Reber, and Blue Collar Success Group
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:01):
I started in the trade that's seven years old,
passing out flyers.
And today our pricing system hashelped contractors add over$2
billion of additional revenueinto their businesses.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
Welcome to Profit and Grit with Tyler, where blue
collar owners and insiders spillthe real story behind their
hustle, building businesses thatthrive through sweat and smarts.
We'll dig into their journeysfrom scaling chaos to growing
the bottom line with lessons andgrit that pay off big.
Here's your host, the bluecollar CFO, Tyler Martin.
SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
Today we're talking with someone who's changing how
contractors sell without feelinglike salespeople.
Danielle Putnam is the CEO ofthe New Flat Rate.
This is a pricing system used byservice companies across the US,
Canada, and Australia that'shelped contractors add billions
(00:58):
of dollars in revenue to theirbusinesses.
She grew up in the trades,passing out flyers for her dad's
business at seven years old, andeventually built a company that
makes pricing simple, scalable,and profitable.
In this episode, we dig into thepsychology behind the
five-option pricing, how to fixyour billable hour rate, and why
(01:22):
most technicians don't hateselling, they just hate the
pressure.
This episode is about turningchaos into consistency, building
systems that sell for you, andproving that profit doesn't come
from working harder, it comesfrom pricing smarter.
Let's talk with Danielle now.
Hey Danielle, welcome to theProfit and Grit Show.
(01:45):
How are you today?
SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
Tyler, I'm awesome.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you.
I loved how when we started, itmakes me want to do this in the
future.
I think whenever people comeinto my Zooms from now on,
they're gonna come into music.
SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
Well, for those who don't know, Tyler invites me on
this show and I shared my music.
I was like, let's jam out to mystuff.
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Clearly, I need to fire people up.
I you I you just you just showedme how that can fire me up,
even.
So that was awesome.
So I want to learn about you.
Let's start first.
Tell me a little bit about whatyou do professionally.
Just touch on it just so we canunderstand what you're about.
And then I want to learnsomething about you personally.
Maybe, maybe even the tidbitpeople don't commonly know about
you.
SPEAKER_02 (02:24):
Cool.
Well, today, Tyler, I'm the CEOof the New Flat Rate.
We are a software company, butwe're also a best practices and
a, I guess we say processdevelopment company because we
work with business owners tohelp them to work on actually
the sales process by using asystem and software.
So I run the daily operationsand growth and strategy.
(02:47):
We could talk about all day longthe hardships, the fun, the
good, the bad, the ugly, allthose things that come with
that.
Uh, I I love it though.
As a child, I always wanted tobe an entrepreneur.
And I feel like, you know,sometimes I question am I doing
a good job, a bad job?
I don't know, but I'm doing whatI wanted to do.
So I'll take that win.
And then uh personally, I mean,I have some awesome kids that
(03:09):
everybody knows that because Iflash them all over the place.
So I'm an adrenaline junkie, andin this season of life, I don't
really get to do that very much.
So this weekend for date night,my husband's like, Hey, did you
want to go to McKay's bookstore?
And I was like, Hey, did youwant to go jet skiing?
And so uh I think that you know,what people don't really know is
(03:33):
that I am a wife and a mother,and that comes first, right?
And I'm a business owner and Ilove what I do.
But I think ahead and I'm like,okay, on the calendar, I've got
a trade show expo coming up insix months.
Nobody else is going at thetheme.
I can sneak away and get on thatjet ski or sneak away and go do
something crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
Well, I felt like there was a hook there.
Did you do the bookstore?
Did you do the jet ski?
SPEAKER_02 (03:56):
He wins.
He always wins.
It's the bookstores.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, we're so separated here.
Do we have to be wild and crazyall the time?
I'm like, but I've been liketaking care of kids and the dogs
and the turtles and like, can'twe go do something fun?
So, but you know, that's notrealistic, Tyler.
We can't go do all that stuffevery day.
But what we can do, what I cando is right now I'm into
(04:19):
running.
And so we're gonna run our firstmarathon in December.
My husband and I are bothrunning it.
And so we're yeah, well, thankyou.
It is because it was one ofthose things that I always said,
please don't ever want to run amarathon.
Please don't ever want to run amarathon.
Like I never wanted to, and nowall of a sudden, I'm loving the
thrill of every day, thetraining.
And what's your training plan?
What are you doing today?
What about this?
What about that?
(04:39):
What are you eating?
What are you drinking?
It's fun.
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
You've already done like a 20, because I I know I've
read this off your LinkedIn.
Haven't you already gone 20miles in your preparation?
In a week, not at one time.
Oh, what's the farthest you'vegone so far?
SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
Yeah.
Years ago, pre-kids, you know,when I was trying my first time,
again, like this is like 15years ago, I was up to like 15
miles.
And then I got a foot injury andwhatever.
And here we are 15 years later.
Right now, my farthest is eightmiles.
That's pretty good.
So I'm getting up.
That's pretty good.
Well, I'm getting there, right?
But it's it's a thing.
Like you got to plan in advance.
And so then two weeks ago, I wasbrowsing Netflix as I was
(05:15):
running early in the morninglooking for a movie to listen
to, and I fell and I hurt mykneecap.
So I struggled for two weeks,and finally on Friday I went and
got an X-ray.
And she's like, You just need tostay off of it for two more
weeks.
The inflammation will go.
Anyway, that's way too long ofan intro.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
I that's okay.
That's a good one.
I did a half marathon last year,and it took me three years to do
it.
Because the first two times Idid it, I kept pulling a calf
muscle.
Oh, and I just, you know, I'dget halfway into it, and then my
calf muscle would hurt, and Isaid, Oh, forget it, and I'd
quit.
And then last year I did it, andI will tell you, I have the
utmost respect that you're uhtaking the challenge on the the
(05:52):
full marathon because halfmarathon was really challenging
for me.
Like I did it and I made it noproblem, but man, I was
fatigued.
And I doubling that just makesme like my mind spin.
SPEAKER_02 (06:04):
It sounds horrific.
Like nobody should ever do it.
I know.
SPEAKER_01 (06:08):
Then you got these people doing ultra marathons and
stuff.
So hey, two each is own, right?
SPEAKER_02 (06:12):
They are crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (06:14):
Okay, I want to get into uh first section here.
I want to learn about you.
And and so when you when youstarted at a very young age, I
think around seven years old,you were actually passing out
flyers in Georgia and theGeorgia Heat.
And I think that kind of startssometimes your entrepreneurial
type roots.
And I believe you also had atrades family.
So I want to learn a little bit,maybe we can spend a couple of
(06:34):
minutes here.
Talk about that and just kind ofyour family growing up and how
you envisioned someday being anentrepreneur.
Was that something you alwaysthought about, or it just uh
kind of formed in the last, youknow, when you started new flat
rate pricing?
SPEAKER_02 (06:46):
You know, Tyler, I think about it all the time.
You know, they say thatformative years are zero to
eight or zero to twelve.
And and birth order plays a rolein there too.
There was nine kids in ourfamily.
I was secondborn.
So I feel like, you know, I wastaking care of younger kids a
lot, but I was secondborn, butfirstborn girl.
So then you got all these thingsgoing on.
At seven, my dad had beenworking at an industrial
(07:09):
electrical company, and my momkept encouraging him, saying,
Hey, Rodney, if you start yourown business, the kids and I
will help you.
And so that summer, you know,that I talk about the AC was out
in the station wagon, and so itwas very hot, and we're all
sitting in the back of thestation wagon driving door to
door and passing out flyers.
And I remember kind of the fearof rejection, walking in, you
know, passing out a flyer.
(07:30):
What if they say no?
But I'm seven, what are theygonna say?
Right.
And so, you know, I I think,yeah, a lot of the, hey, if you
want something in life, you haveto do something about it,
probably did come out of thoseyears because my dad wanted a
business and we experiencedbeing a part of that, the doing
something with him.
(07:50):
And then when I was 12, I usedto ride my bike through the
neighborhood to Mrs.
Richardson's house, and Icleaned her house for her every
Saturday until I was 18.
So all my friends are doingother things on Saturday
mornings when they're, you know,older, 16, 17, 18.
But I was still going to MissRichardson's, cleaning her house
for$5 an hour, even when I was18.
(08:10):
And I was over there for fourhours.
So I got$20,$20 a week at MissRichardson's house.
And every Friday I would callher, be like, hey, you know,
Miss Richardson, do you want metomorrow?
And she said, you know,Danielle, just automatically
come every week and call me Doc.
My name's not Miss Richardson.
It's Doc.
And I was like, no, no.
So every Friday, hey, MissRichardson, do you want me
tomorrow?
So I confirmed the job everysingle week from 12 years old to
18 years old.
(08:31):
And then I went and I did thatand I got, but that because
Tyler, I wanted that guaranteedincome and I wanted to grow my
savings.
I wanted things.
I wanted, right?
And so I don't know that I canpinpoint because even looking at
my own kids, I'm like, allright, you have to work to get
what you want.
And then we have to work to eat.
Like you try to instill thingsin them, but some of them
(08:51):
automatically are like,somebody's gonna buy my meal.
I don't have to work, you know,but then the other ones work
harder.
Like, I do think some of it's inour DNA and natural.
I want to say that there issome.
You know, some of it'supbringing, but some of it is
who you are.
And from an early age, I wantedto build things.
I wanted to be an entrepreneur.
SPEAKER_01 (09:10):
So did your dad have a trades business?
Is that in were you did you getinvolved in that anyway, other
than like flyers and stuff, orwere you actually going out on
job sites with them?
Like how involved?
Sounds like you you've alwayskind of had a pretty tight
family nucleus among you whereyou guys all kind of think of
each other in terms of yourbusinesses and stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (09:30):
Yeah.
We so in um when I was in highschool, I was homeschooled
because I, you know, I tried togo to public school and I was
like, now we're sitting here allday long in class.
And so if I was homeschooled,then I could be sitting in the
office all day long.
And I did school at nightbecause at this time he he we
started the he started theelectrical service business, but
then he had bought an HVAC and aplumbing business.
(09:52):
And so we were in all three whenI was in high school.
So I worked in the office andthen of course ran parts and was
constantly going between jobsand doing parts and working in
the warehouse with theinventory.
What I loved about it, and Ibragged about this, Tyler, is
that I was able to see so manyaspects of business that my
peers didn't get to see, right?
And so, you know, yeah, you'vegot you've got your payables and
(10:13):
your receivables, and you've gotyour inventory, and you know,
just the hiring, the firing, thescheduling, the customer
service, the hey, the phone'snot ringing today.
What are we gonna do about it?
We have to do something.
So your grit, you know, I loveprofit and grit.
Grit comes in of, yeah,nothing's happening in business
today.
We have to make it happen.
And at some point down the line,it'll be rolling on its own.
(10:35):
You don't have to do so muchgrit to get to that profit.
So I was involved in thebusiness, and we are.
I like that you actually pick upon that.
My siblings and I are all veryuh connected in each other's
businesses.
And, you know, we've got some ofus have some properties
together, and then um, some ofus are, you know, just
constantly cheering each otheron and referring, and it's fun.
SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
That's cool.
I know it's it's nice.
I have a similar situation.
I have two older sisters, and weall were raised in the same
general area.
I mean, we grew up, boughthouses, all stay in the same
area.
So it we overlap a lot in thingsuh when we're doing stuff.
So it's it's cool when you havewhen we're blessed.
Fortunately, we're blessed.
Not everybody has that thatblessing to have my family all
(11:18):
being close.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it is.
And there's some there's somethat don't work with us, right?
Everybody's like, oh, you guyshave a family business?
We're like, yeah, but likeeverybody doesn't automatically
get to work in it.
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
Um, so now I want to kind of move into from going
from that childhood to moving upto new flat rate.
Like, what was your thoughtprocess on starting like a flat
rate business?
And it was that, did you learnthat from your dad's business?
Like where you said, hey, was hedoing that?
Or did you say he should havebeen?
Maybe in your mind you werethinking, or where does this
(11:50):
idea come from?
SPEAKER_02 (11:51):
I wanted to be in fashion and design.
I had so many sketchbooks filledwith designs, you know, and then
I would go and I would buy bluejeans from all the thrift stores
and I would create these coolpatches on them.
And I was like, I'm gonna be amillionaire by selling these
awesome blue jeans.
So I was totally not thinkingflat rate, right?
But still thinking business.
(12:11):
So I would try all kinds ofthings.
I try, I wanted to sell to FridaLay.
Oh, good golly.
I don't think I've ever toldthis story publicly like this.
But my roommates and I, when Ilived in California, I was
constantly going to the Hispanicmarket, well, to the Mexican
markets and to the stores andgetting all these ingredients.
And I was trying to make thiscertain kind of dip.
Anyway, so it wasn't flat rate.
(12:32):
Let me get back on point.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
When I was I feel like there's a good story there,
though, but okay.
SPEAKER_02 (12:37):
Uh, every weekend we were trying.
I was trying to make thistortilla soup dip.
And I wanted, I like I had the Iwas gonna have the factory and
everything.
It was gonna be the best stuffin the world.
So we every weekend I was liketrying all these batches, and my
girlfriends were like, nope, notquite there yet.
Now you're getting closerconstantly.
So I didn't make it big into theinto the chips and dip market.
SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
So next thing.
SPEAKER_02 (12:55):
Next thing, right?
But then I was working at asoftware company, it was a
startup, and Tyler, I just alsostill got to be involved in all
the areas of the business, whichI loved.
But my dad, as a contractor, hadbeen having great seasons in in
business and terrible seasons inbusiness, and it was very much
fluctuating all the time.
And so we'd talk about businessand he he had the idea because
(13:16):
all of a sudden, after years andyears of of struggle trying to
figure out how to make hisbusiness work better, they
stumbled upon some peace andsome profit.
And that was with the power ofthe menu by pricing right.
And so as he was telling methese stories, he's like, I want
to tell more people, I want tohelp more other business owners,
more contractors to be able todo this too.
I said, Well, you should.
(13:37):
You should do something aboutthat.
He's like, Yeah, we could startthis company called Just One
Look, or we could walk in theirbusiness on a Tuesday and put
money in their bank by Friday.
So I've got it behind this, I'vegot a coffee cup up there that
says, you know, just one look.
And I was like, Yeah, you shoulddo that.
He said, Well, I can't do itwithout you.
And Tyler, I've been fortunatebecause, you know, there's some
that are visionary and some thatare operational, and then
(13:58):
there's some that can do both,right?
And so he was very much thevisionary and I was the
operator.
And so because I had left and Iwas out on my own, had my own
career going on, that when Imoved back and I said, you know
what, let's start this companytogether, there was a different
level of respect.
It wasn't, you know, just fatherand daughter of, oh yeah, right.
(14:18):
It was very different.
We came in as partners rightaway.
And then my brother and sister,Melody and Matt, they joined us
too and they came in.
So together we were partners of,wait a minute, we've got
something here that willactually help people.
And to this day, that's one ofour foundational core values is
to help, because that's what wewant to do.
We're like, we found a way to beable to have a profitable
company in the service business,and we want to share that with
(14:41):
other people.
And so once we just stumbledupon that, that was through the
power of pricing.
So then we kept building.
It wasn't, I wish it was achildhood dream.
SPEAKER_01 (14:50):
So was the vision, so it is the vision that the
flat rate pricing for all tradesindustries is it mostly just
HVAC?
Like what's your like what'syour vision in terms of how that
that can apply?
SPEAKER_02 (15:02):
We did, we did HVAC.
We did HVAC, we had a price bookfor HVAC, and then they were
knocking on the doors saying,hey, we have to have plumbing.
This is working.
Our service tickets are growing,our technicians are thrilled,
we've got consistency.
Like all of a sudden we've gotmoney in the bank.
This is working.
We have to have plumbing.
And Rodney, our dad's like, Idon't know how to write a
plumbing book for that.
(15:23):
That's tough.
And so my brother Matt and Iwere like, we're gonna figure
out how to write this plumbingbook.
And so a couple months later, wecome and we drop a big ol' boom,
here you go.
There's the plumbing book.
And uh we've we figured it out,but by working with contractors,
right?
So we're working with masterplumbers and we write this
plumbing book, and then ofcourse, it moved over into
electrical, and then we had anelectrical book.
And so for the past 14 years,Tyler, we've been HVAC,
(15:44):
electrical and plumbing, flatrate price books with the menu.
And now, tomorrow, I know thatthis show is gonna air after
that, but tomorrow uh we'relaunching a beta platform, a
completely new software systemthat's gonna allow us to go into
all verticals.
And so I'm really excited.
So, whether it's, you know,garage doors and roofing and
windows and pest control andlandscaping, hardscaping, I'm
(16:09):
really excited and that'slaunching in beta tomorrow.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
So when when we talk flat rate pricing, a lot of
times the pushback will be, oh,you can't do that.
There's too many variables, itwon't work, especially in the
trades.
And let's just use HVAC inparticular.
That's the pushback you'll get,like nine out of 10 times.
What's your thought when youhear that?
Like, is is it just, or how doyou simplify it so it is
possible?
SPEAKER_02 (16:32):
Yeah, Tyler, they're not wrong.
What was so hard for us even inthe beginning is how many parts
and how many manufacturers.
So how are you gonna?
So all the flat rate price bookswere huge because you've got all
these manufacturers, all thesedifferent kinds of parts, and
then all, you know, all these, Imean it was unbelievable.
And so we bundled and we did amenu.
We said, all right, and we tookthe we took the the name brands
(16:53):
out of it and the part names outof it.
We said, All right, if we're atthe kitchen sink, what is the
best service we can do at thekitchen sink?
The very best, and that's thetop.
And then, you know, we canchange it and go down to we had
five different price points forwhat we could do in a kitchen
sink, no matter what brand, whatkind of part, and things like
that.
So we took those out so that wecould actually begin to clarify
(17:14):
what we could do for thecustomer.
And it took 14 years.
So uh it was our our head ofproduct says the other day,
Danielle, do you know we have73,000 menus?
No, I didn't know that.
73,000.
Oh, you don't say, but it did sothat that was definitely that's
a true objection.
That was difficult.
But we just over time we builtthem, we wrote them, we thought
(17:36):
through.
And now we've got the power ofAI all over the place, Tyler.
But it'll walk you right off acliff if you don't watch out for
it.
And so we really had to use alot of human thinking along with
this too.
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
So this five option psychology, what what is the
psychology behind it?
Like, so there's, I'm assuming,a high, the very highest price
point, and then there's a verylow price point.
Is that something about us asconsumers uh that we like to
see?
Or take me through what thethinking is on that.
SPEAKER_02 (18:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, you're probably veryfamiliar, uh, along with
everybody else listening, withgood, better, best, right?
If the term is good, betterbest.
And so whether you're gonna buya pair of shoes or a new drill
or you're gonna have a servicedone in your home, uh, so often
as service professionals,they're busy, they come in and
out, hey Tyler, it's gonna costX amount to fix it.
They give you one price, andyou're like, oh, rats, I guess
(18:25):
I'm just gonna have to do it.
That's the only choice that I'vegot, right?
And so with the power of themenu, we can say, all right,
Tyler, instead of just oneprice, it's here's here's your
three options, right?
Good, better, or best.
The minute you start offeringoptions, then your mind can
expand in agreement with themof, oh, they're here helping me.
I've got options.
I'm not backed into a corner.
(18:46):
Now, good, better, best, that'sa start because the minute you
offer more options, you canchoose to buy more without any
sales pressure.
If there's only one price,that's all you got.
But if they add two on top ofthat, you might want more.
We went with five because uhstatistics, data, economists,
smarter people than me haveproven that the mind
(19:08):
automatically removes twooptions.
So when you have three options,good, better, best, the mind's
gonna remove two.
If I can do that, gonna removetwo, and then you just got one.
So you're kind of backed intothat corner again, right?
But if you have five and themind removes two, then you still
have three and you still have amiddle.
And humans like the safety zoneof the middle.
80% of humans buy in the middle.
(19:29):
And since we know that they'regonna do that, let's give them
that landing place, right?
They want something a little bitabove the low option.
Now, I do think and love havinglost leaders or very affordable
basic bottom options that getyou in the door, very
competitive in your marketplace.
Absolutely.
But don't leave it there becausepeople do want to do more with
(19:51):
you.
They want a better service.
They want, you know, whetherit's a brand or a part or
something else that's in thehome, we got to give those
options so they can buy more.
So the psychology is that whengiven choices, people will 80%
of the time move themselves upto a higher option.
And you want that as a businessowner.
You want that.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
Sure.
And then is the top pricing, isthat more of like an anchor in
terms of how we're pricing it,or is that truly like a
competitive premium pricing?
Like, are we, when I say anchor,like we're it's you know, two or
three times higher than whatanyone would pay just because it
makes the middle one look thatmuch more attractive, or is it a
true like premium pricing?
SPEAKER_02 (20:30):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Um, sometimes it's three timesthe bottom price.
I mean, it depends on you knowthe market and the and the
product and the differentthings.
But the the secret, yeah, and wehave so much data and and we've
tested and tested and tested inevery state all over the US,
Canada, and Australia, is thatthe spread can't be too great.
(20:51):
Okay, it's gotta be enough towhere psychologically they
possibly could move up.
So you don't really want the topoption to be like knocked out of
the park so that yeah, now thatthat middle one looks
affordable.
No, we want them to actually beable to reach it if that's what
they want.
And so it's gotta be just anice, even step.
And that's how humans and mindscan kind of choose the level
(21:12):
that they want.
And we've tested it all over theplace, and that's where it
performs the best.
What we found how your pricing,if you want to start practicing
with your pricing, is that ifpeople and it's data, right?
Math tells us all kinds ofthings.
If your customers are alwaysonly choosing your bottom
option, or if they're alwaysonly choosing your top option,
that's not where you want to be.
If they're choosing your bottomoption only, the top options
(21:35):
probably are too expensive.
And so you're gonna want to playwith that.
If they're always choosing thetop, well then the bottom's too
cheap.
So the numbers will tell Yeah,that makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
Since we know 80% of the time people are gonna pick
the middle, is that the sweetspot in terms of our
profitability too?
SPEAKER_02 (21:51):
Mm-hmm.
It is.
Now, depending on how you wantto build your pricing, right?
Your top option might have alonger warranty.
It might have things like that.
With our top options, we have areturn visit.
And so that that is gonna becost.
You're gonna be rolling thattruck again, going back out
there to your check and makingsure everything is in as great
of a condition as it is todaywhen we leave.
And so that middle option ismore profitable because you
(22:12):
don't have as long of awarranty.
You're not doing that returnvisit.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (22:16):
Okay.
And then one of the pushbacksthat I've heard on flat rate
pricing is owners will say,Well, that means I'm gonna lose
money sometimes because priceschange and things change.
And if I'm gonna be a flat rate,sometimes it's just I'm gonna
lose money on some project.
Do I just have to accept that?
What's your thoughts when youhear that?
SPEAKER_02 (22:37):
So they you know, they they don't have to.
They could, yes.
So let's say you got a flat rateand all of a sudden, you know,
this has happened many times,all of a sudden the prices of
things go up and oh, you haven'tprinted your book or you haven't
hit update on your app, right?
You didn't have those.
So in our system, we havelevels.
So you can use a level one,level two, level three.
And so if prices changeovernight, just use a level two
(22:58):
page and all of a suddeneverything's adjusted, right?
But if you don't have that, ifyou don't have a system that
accounts for that, I would goback instead and I would say,
but what about all the jobs thatyou're not pricing enough on?
Right?
Like you're already losing moneyin other areas because you're
under you're undercharging oryou wouldn't even be thinking
about it or listening to thiscall today.
(23:19):
And so I believe that people arequestioning their prices.
Am I priced right?
No, probably not.
If you're questioning it.
So the flip of that is allright, you think that you're
gonna not go to a flat rate or aset price or increase your
prices because, well, somethingmight change.
Things change all the time.
And you need to be testing yourpricing all the time.
You need to be changing yourpricing all the time, you need
to update your pricing all thetime.
Yeah, it's living and breathing.
(23:40):
Like it's not a one-time done,it's all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Yeah.
That's kind of my response too.
You said it more, more uhclearly than I probably will.
But I'm just like, hey, if youtake a hundred jobs and you lose
a small amount on one, but if itmeans 99 times you're getting
the ideal sweet spot in terms ofyour pricing, and oh, by the
way, you're spending a fractionof the time and you're closing
more sales, it kind of becomes ano-brainer if you look at the
(24:04):
big picture.
But I am telling you, I justhave talked with people and they
it's their hang up.
They're like, oh, that means mylittle PVC pipe went up by 10
cents, and I'm not gonna havethat factored in.
And it's like, yeah,unfortunately, it's gonna be a
couple jobs that you might beoff a little bit on your PVC
pricing.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (24:21):
You know where we see people are missing out more
though, is their billable hourisn't correct.
SPEAKER_01 (24:25):
Yeah, that's a big one.
SPEAKER_02 (24:26):
They've got their billable hour set so low, and
well, you know, you're infinance world, right?
So their billable hour is notadjusted accordingly.
And so they're even if they moveto flat rate today, like they're
not usually priced enough.
They don't have their theiroverhead and everything
calculated in.
And if they did, there'd beenough margin.
That pipe goes up 10%.
You've still got margin inthere.
SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
It's a huge one.
You know, one of the firstthings I'll do with the client
is a break-even analysis, andthen, hey, where do you want to
be at in terms of profit margin?
And I'm telling you, theirhourly billing rate is usually
off by two or three hundreddollars an hour from what they
think it is.
And it just blows my mind.
I had a guy just a couple ofweeks ago say it was 200 bucks
an hour.
(25:06):
His son had calculated it.
We went through the actualnumbers and it was five,
something like 550 an hour.
SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
Yes, that's exactly what we see too.
I know, right?
And so then it's scary forpeople.
Like, well, if I actually usethe the accurate pricing, that's
scary.
It feels like too much.
What if I'm gonna get pushbackfrom my customers?
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
Yeah.
So so in these five options, itsounds like you guys get pretty
creative because you said like atrip coming back.
Do you get pretty creative interms of what these different
packages, I'll call them,include?
Like what are some variationsthat you commonly would see?
SPEAKER_02 (25:38):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, like I mentioned.
So somebody told me the otherday, they're like, you should
not use hamburgers, you shoulduse hotels.
Well, I haven't printed out asheet with hotels on it.
I have hamburgers.
SPEAKER_01 (25:50):
So we're looking at a picture for the folks
listening.
You've got a picture ofhamburgers and you're making me
hungry, by the way.
SPEAKER_02 (25:55):
Yeah, yeah.
So I've got yeah, I'm glad thatyou said that for those that are
just listening.
But the top value here, let'ssay it's a Big Mac or whatever
your favorite hamburger is.
Our place here in town is calledWillie's.
And on Willie's, you know,you're gonna eat on that
hamburger for a week.
But you have all of the thingsthat you can put on a hamburger.
You're gonna have all yourcondiments, you're gonna have,
you know, double patties, you'regonna have your cheese, you're
gonna have everything.
Down at the bottom, it's just abasic hamburger.
(26:17):
And so we are creative when welook at what we can do in the
home, whether it's an airconditioner or you know, a
ceiling fan.
It's okay, I can replace theceiling fan.
We can go with a differentproduct, a different brand
manufacturer, you know, morepremium.
But then also, do you want aremote?
And then let's uh all thewiring.
Do we need to upgrade all thewiring that's connected with the
ceiling fan?
(26:38):
And so we're still thinkingabout one area.
I'm looking up because there's aceiling fan above me right now,
but we're focused on what is thevery best?
So we ask craftsmen, we askthese technicians, what's the
very best that you could do forthis ceiling fan?
And they actually have greatideas.
They're like, oh, well, I can dothis, this, and this, and then I
can actually repaint the ceilingaround it and this and this and
this too, and I'll sweep and mopthe floor underneath.
(27:00):
That's added value and youshould be paid for that, get
paid for what you're worth,right?
The customer doesn't want tocome home and have the dust all
on the floor.
And I mean, I can't stand itwhen we get electrical work done
in the house and there'sfingerprints all over the
ceiling.
Like, what am I gonna get thatdown?
Right.
But when they leave a beautifulworkspace afterwards, and the
customer can be like, oh mygosh, look what happened today.
You can charge for that.
(27:20):
And even those things are builtinto that top option.
It's all the added wow factor,all the way down to just, oh,
you just want me to swap thatout and leave?
You got it.
SPEAKER_01 (27:28):
What do you do for folks that are skeptical about
going to a flat rate pricing?
Like, do you have a certain waythat you encourage them, allow
them to test it, or get them tobe open-minded about it?
Any any particular process thatyou follow when they're
skeptical?
SPEAKER_02 (27:43):
You know, that's a good question.
I wonder what our sales teamdoes about that.
You know, I don't know.
You know, but when when talkingto business centers, it's well,
that's what's the pain?
What's the real pain?
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:54):
What's really keeping you up at night?
A question that I know that weask a lot is do you believe that
anybody on your team could beleaving money on the table?
And everybody emphatically says,yes, we leave money on the table
all the time, right?
And and that's in everybusiness.
We all know that.
Yes, there's, you know, we'vegot efficiency loss.
Yes, we could we could be loselosing money in different areas.
Well, are you ready to dosomething about it or are you
(28:16):
not?
So, you know, we we work bestwith companies that don't want
to just kick kick the tires.
They're really ready to actuallychange and they're ready to
commit.
SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
Yeah.
What a great way to open adiscussion though.
Do you think you're leavingmoney on the table?
Because who doesn't uh inbusiness feel like you know we
could always be doing somethinga little better, bidding a
little higher, closing morejobs?
That's a great, great openingsegue to start a conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (28:40):
Yeah, we could even be following up more.
unknown (28:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:43):
Yeah.
So so that is one way.
SPEAKER_01 (28:46):
So I want to talk a little bit about uh technicians
and how that relates to thisflat rate pricing.
A lot of times you know, we geta little weird about technicians
selling.
How does this flat rate pipricing fall into that?
SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
You know, we would love it if every technician was
duplicatable, the superstars,the ones that that are great
salesmen and great with customerservice.
And there are some wonderfulones out there.
But for those that aren't, thatmaybe that's not their sweet
spot.
Maybe they don't like talking tothe customers as much.
They like to fix things.
And right now we've got a wholelot more of diversity of
(29:24):
language, right?
So some of them can't talk tothe customers so much.
And so we've got to help with asystem, the system that does the
a piece of that, the process.
And so for us, it's that's thepiece that we play in this, is
or the part that we play inthis, I should say, is the the
pricing.
So I don't want to go too longon my answer.
Can you rephrase the questionagain?
SPEAKER_01 (29:45):
Yeah, no problem.
You you answered it actuallyperfectly.
I want to there's a subset tothat question though.
After like you've implemented aflat rate pricing scenario, what
have you heard technicians say?
Have they said, hey, this islike life changing, it makes my
process so much easier?
Like what are some What's somefeedback you've received?
SPEAKER_02 (30:02):
When they start to get performance pay and these
bonuses that they've never seenbefore or never thought
possible, the text messages thatwe get back of you changed my
life.
And so it's called our memberexperience team.
They're downstairs here in theoffice.
It's their tight-knit team.
They're just like, guess what?
And they're constantly showingtheir text messages to each
(30:23):
other of look what so-and-so,you know, just said.
Like, that's a big deal, Tyler.
But these technicians are ableto make more money than they
thought possible just becausethey show a pricing system.
A homeowner bought more and theydidn't have to sell.
They didn't have to have thestress or think.
They just had to follow aprocess that was provided by
their company.
The company says, Hey, here'sthe process, just follow it.
(30:45):
So they walk in, they greet thecustomer, they find the problem,
they do the diagnosis, and theyshow some options.
The customer chooses a higherlevel and then they get bonus
based on the level that thecustomer chooses.
When they choose those higheroptions, and the technician gets
to do what they want to do.
A great quality repair job.
And then they're getting bonusfor it.
So it's such a win-win awesomescenario.
(31:06):
They love it.
Now, on the flip side of that,do we have technicians that are
like, hey, I don't want to tryanything new?
All the time.
SPEAKER_01 (31:12):
All the time, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:13):
All the time.
And so we just ask for achampion in the truck.
Who's going to try it first inthe company?
SPEAKER_01 (31:18):
So is the pay for performance, is that part of
your methodology?
Is that something you help whensomeone comes in and does flat
rate pricing, they work withyou?
Do you also help them implementthat pay for performance part of
it?
SPEAKER_02 (31:31):
We do.
Tyler, as a business owner, Iknow you feel this and me too.
Sometimes you know that there'san area of your business that
you should put a process inplace.
So it could be a newcompensation plan, it could be a
new policy for your company oryour team or whatever, right?
And I feel the pressure of uh Ineed that time where I can focus
to actually write out thatprocess and build it, right?
(31:51):
So what's exciting is we'vealready done that piece of it.
So when we start working withthese business owners, these
contractors, here is theperformance plan that we
recommend that works really wellwith this.
And so then we'll train them,we'll set it up for them, we'll
help them implement it, roll itout to their technicians.
And it is a piece of it.
We do a lot of training andcoaching.
And some of that is implementingprocesses.
(32:14):
Some of it is, you know, itcould just be encouraging, like
the they call them virtualride-alongs.
The technicians call our team,our tech support guys to say,
hey, this is where I'm at.
I'm out in the field, I'm onthis call.
This is what I'm looking at.
What do you think I should do?
And so our guys are able to say,Well, what were you thinking?
And the techs are like, Well,you know, you know, X, Y, Z.
That's a great.
Why don't we do that?
(32:35):
That sounds perfect.
Let's do that, right?
And so it's just somebody therewith them.
So we do a whole lot more thanthat than I even talk about.
And and that is a differentiatorthat I love about the new flat
rate is we're still such peoplepeople.
SPEAKER_01 (32:46):
If if the technician can actually call you, it sounds
like you're getting in on theground level in terms of
supporting the client.
It's much more than justnecessarily flat rate pricing.
It's their whole process.
SPEAKER_02 (32:57):
It is.
Because you know, anybody cancan have a price book, but to be
able to have a system that yourwhole team follows with menus
and options that customers canbuy more, it's the automatic
selling that's happening.
And that's, you know, Iencourage people that are
thinking about their pricing andwhat changes should they make is
what could they do so that theircustomers can ask those magic
(33:19):
questions?
So what processes or scripts canbe put in place?
Hey, instead of repairing today,how much for a replacement?
Or, hey, you know, I saw thatyou had such and such.
Can I try that?
We want to help the customer tobe able to buy more.
SPEAKER_01 (33:33):
What do you see most commonly when you're working
with the trades company, whetherit be HVAC, electrical, or
plumbing?
What do you see the biggestmistake they're making as it
relates to sales and growingtheir revenue?
A lack of system, relying on aperson to do it.
Consistency, basically.
SPEAKER_02 (33:49):
Well, and and relying on a person.
You're saying, all right, so sotoday I've got Tyler and you're
a superstar salesperson, butTyler, you're not with me
forever.
And all of a sudden you're gone,and I don't have another Tyler.
So now who's selling?
Well, but when you have a systemthat anybody that sits in that
seat can do, that's the secretsauce that keeps it going, is
you got to have the system, notthe not dependent on the person.
(34:10):
And that's with any business,right?
People run the processes, butyou got to have the processes in
place for them to follow andrun.
SPEAKER_01 (34:16):
What's a timeline if someone were to engage you?
Like what's a timeline to gofrom, hey, I really have no
infrastructure to now I have aprocess, I have flat rate
pricing.
What does that typically looklike?
SPEAKER_02 (34:27):
Within the first week, we've got you up and
running on the software and theapp.
We've onboarded you, but wemight take 30 days, depending on
your team, to get your wholeteam up and going.
We want to make sure thateverybody's confident, that the
mindset's ready, that uh, youknow, they saw, hey, there's a
one of the technicians tried itfirst.
It was successful.
All right, now we'll all we'llall try.
(34:47):
We want to look at results.
We want to look at the numbers,just like you, right?
What were your numbers before?
What are your numbers now?
We want to be analyzing thatwith them along the way.
So it could go anywhere from aweek to 30 days.
SPEAKER_01 (34:58):
Wow.
Okay, that's a the very fairtimeline.
That's not too too far out.
How does this integrate withlike some of the packages that
are that are out there, likeService Titan, we'll say job or
maybe house call pro.
Does this is this independent ofthem, or are you doing the price
book in like a service Titan,but with a flat rate pricing
methodology set up in it?
SPEAKER_02 (35:19):
We have a full API with Service Titan and House
Call Pro.
We have soft integrations withthe others.
And so they can have you knowcopy and paste their information
in there, have import files inthere, or with the APIs,
everything goes directly.
So it is separate.
The the FSMs write ours is kindof like the inventory, the task
codes and all that that go inthere, but they are separate
(35:40):
softwares.
SPEAKER_01 (35:40):
Oh, how cool.
But it just feeds right into it.
The data feeds right in.
So it's no different than Imean, CHIRP comes to mind the
way CHIRP kind of integrates asan outside package.
Very cool.
I like that.
Last thing I want to talk aboutis just the whole family
business angle of this.
Sometimes, you know, a lot of uhtrades businesses are family
businesses, and you know,friction can happen within
(36:02):
family businesses, people can beon different pages.
How have you found running yourown business?
Your dad started out with it.
What was that like being in thefamily business?
Does that is that power innumbers, or is it sometimes it
slows you down in your growthbecause people have different
ideas in the family?
What does that look like foryou?
SPEAKER_02 (36:19):
You know, Tyler, if I can be honest, I was in
denial.
Everybody was like, Oh, you're afamily business.
No, we're not.
We just work together.
And I was in denial for years.
And because I was in denial foryears, I didn't recognize the
glass ceilings that we wereputting on ourselves.
Sure.
Right?
That there were certain thingsthat you accepted because we
were all family.
And so it took me years to cometo the reality of being honest
(36:42):
and accepting we are a familybusiness.
That's not a bad thing.
It just means we have to holdeach other accountable
differently.
And we might need outside peopleto help hold us accountable.
And so when my dad and I ran thecompany together, uh, it was
very easy.
It was very easy.
We were best friends, you know,he had the idea, I was helping
to implement, and he let me runa run a company.
(37:03):
And I always wanted to do that.
So it's very easy.
As he began to phase out intoretirement, my brother and
sister and I became more ofpartners.
And that's where it gotdifficult because we did have
different visions.
And so where we wanted to go,where we thought the company
should be, our expectations werenot in alignment.
(37:25):
And so we avoided each other.
There was years of, you know,we're friendly at Christmas and
we might say hi to each other inmeetings, but we really avoided
and like we were siloed workingon our own things.
We weren't rowing in the sameboat until two years ago with
EOS.
So if you're familiar with theentrepreneur operating system,
EOS, when and we'd tried, Tyler.
We'd looked at, we'd flown allover the US trying to find a way
(37:48):
to operate the business inunison, you know.
And then somebody, you know,somebody would go to a show and
come back and be like, I got it.
Let's try this.
And then I'd go to a differentshow.
And and so we were constantlyconflicting about who had the
best ideas.
And so with EOS, I was like,nope, we're throwing every other
strategy out.
This is the one that we're goingwith.
And we started, we had we got animplementer with us and we
started having our meetings andgetting in alignment.
(38:10):
And it wasn't too long before Icould say, wow, we actually are
on the same team.
Like we are supporting eachother.
We want the same things, we wantto be working together and
growing a business together, andwe want it to be great for our
team.
And uh, it's really fun now.
Uh, but it was it was painful.
It was painful.
So first I had to be honest thatwe are a family business and
(38:31):
there are things that we'redoing sloppy because of that
that needed we needed to change.
And then, hey, we need a way tobe in unison again and we need a
strategic vision and a plan.
And so uh that's been reallyfun.
Now I love working withsiblings.
And and our niece, our niece isworking with us too, and she's
just climbing.
It's been so fun.
I have another niece who hasbeen here in the summers, and
(38:55):
then sometimes nephews will beworking on side projects and
stuff.
So I look forward to the daysone of my daughters came to,
well, a couple of my daughtershave come to trade shows and
worked the booths with us andstuff.
Um, but we hold them to astandard, right?
This is the way we do business.
If you're gonna work here, youdon't get freebies, you gotta
earn it.
And you start at the bottom andyou climb your way up.
So we could have learned a lotfaster.
(39:15):
I wish somebody would haveslapped us around sooner and
been like, you guys need tolearn.
SPEAKER_01 (39:19):
What do you think in EOS made it have you guys all
come together?
Was it the fat the fact thateverybody was the right person
in the right seat?
Was it accountability, a littlebit of everything?
Was it looking at metrics everyweek, scorecards?
What kind of brought youtogether?
And that was it, the implementerwas just so awesome in terms of
bringing you together.
Was there any one thing thatstood out?
SPEAKER_02 (39:39):
You know, in in the EOS world, there's a term called
the elephant in the room.
It probably got uh maybe it wasthe implementer that helped us
start talking about all theelephants in the room.
There were so many things wedidn't talk about, and it forced
those discussions.
And uh Yeah, yeah.
And once they're done, once youhave those uncomfortable
conversations, they're done.
SPEAKER_01 (40:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
And then everybody can just move forward and grow,
and you realize how stupid tohave been stumped on
uncomfortable conversations thatreally weren't that big of a
deal, or you're assuming, right?
Yeah, and so I do think in infamily businesses we assume too
much, we don't communicate.
SPEAKER_01 (40:16):
It's hard.
I mean, family businesses.
I mean, I know there's a lot oflisteners out in the audience
that are feeling this.
It's hard sometimes.
You've got your mom or your dador whoever, and it's just, you
know, sometimes that frictioninstantly pops up if you say the
wrong thing because it isfamily.
Yeah.
It's just, I just literally hada call earlier today, and
(40:37):
someone hired their niece intothe business.
They're way overpaying theirniece, like 30% more than anyone
else in the company, other thanownership, and um isn't really
carrying their weight, thisperson.
And it's it's a very delicatetopic because it's family.
SPEAKER_02 (40:53):
Yes, it is hard.
And so once you start, you said,you know, the right people on in
the bus, the right seats in thebus, once you start really
working with that organizationalchart, the accountability chart,
all the time, saying, all right,we've got this person.
Uh something that I like toencourage people to do is even
looking at that family memberand okay, they have to be
valuable.
So if this isn't the right seat,what can they do?
(41:16):
And where where are the metricsshowing what we're gonna hold
them accountable for?
Uh sometimes it's ownership'sfault.
We didn't clearly define this iswhat they're gonna be held
accountable for, and here's whogets to see it, right?
So the accountabilities have tobe set.
SPEAKER_01 (41:30):
Yeah, good, good stuff.
I like that.
Good feedback.
Okay, talked about a lot ofawesome stuff, talked about your
early years in terms of how itframed you.
Uh, we talked about the fiveoption psychology.
I love that, by the way.
Just the thinking of we tend totake one out from each side and
then end up in the middle.
So that's very cool.
We talked about just pricing ingeneral and how the flat rate
(41:51):
pricing could fit into a model,as well as the overall processes
and systems.
It's not just one little piece.
It's kind of looking at the bigpicture of the whole deal.
And then we talked about familybusinesses.
So I think we covered a lot.
Did I leave anything else out oranything else you want to talk
about before we wrap up?
SPEAKER_02 (42:07):
Yeah, I appreciate the time.
I appreciate you know, youasking about pricing.
Uh, I just want to encouragepeople to look at your pricing
and think about what you coulddo differently, because you're
the expert in your trade,whatever that is.
And so, what more value couldyou add and could you get paid
what you're worth?
And and I also like to say, youknow, let's make sure that we
don't give everything away forfree.
(42:28):
I know a lot of us like to havepre-strategy calls or, you know,
and we're helpful.
And our industry's home servicesare so helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (42:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (42:36):
But you deserve to get paid what you're worth.
And so I just want to encourageyou to take a look at what
you're giving away to say, whatwould happen if you actually
asked for payment for that?
You'd be surprised that peoplewould pay you.
SPEAKER_01 (42:48):
Yeah, that's good advice.
So your website, thenewflatrate.com, once again, the
newflatrate.com.
You're on LinkedIn as DanielleCoop.
So if people want to check youout on LinkedIn or talk with
you, and then I'll put yourSpotify.
It's kind of got a little bit ofa funky uh link to it.
So it's kind of hard to say overuh the podcast, but I'll put the
Spotify link for your podcast,the new flat rate, if people
(43:12):
want to check that out.
Anything I left out or where'sthe ideal place people should
reach out to?
Is it LinkedIn?
SPEAKER_02 (43:18):
Yeah, please do.
Add me on LinkedIn.
We'd love to be friends, get toknow you, and listen to our
podcasts for sure on Spotify.
But if you are interested inpricing or just a strategy
session, then you go to ourwebsite to get a demo.
SPEAKER_01 (43:30):
Thank you.
Appreciate you being on theshow.
You are awesome to talk with.
SPEAKER_02 (43:33):
Oh, Tyler, it's so great to hang out with you.
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (43:38):
What a fun conversation with Danielle.
What I enjoyed most out of thatconversation is just coming away
with the feeling that it's notjust about pricing, it's about
building systems that make yourbusiness predictable.
That's what every owner wants.
That's what we all want.
We want consistency, confidence,and cash flow that doesn't
depend on luck or long nights.
(44:00):
That's also where a good CFOcomes in.
My job is to help businessowners take the same kind of
structure Danielle built forpricing and apply it to their
finances.
So every decision, every hire,every investment is backed by
numbers, not guesswork.
If you're ready to see what thatlooks like, go ahead and book an
intro call either atcfomadeasy.com or
(44:21):
cfointrocall.com.
No pressure, no obligation.
We just chat for about 20minutes, see if potentially I
can help you.
And if I can, we can go fromthere.
If I can't, probably refer youto some people that I think
might be able to help forwhatever you got going on.
And last but not least, if youcould do me a big favor, if you
could leave, if you like thispodcast and you could leave a
(44:43):
review at wherever you get yourpodcast, that could be Spotify,
Apple, uh, I would greatlyappreciate it.
And uh can't thank you enoughfor listening.
And I hope you have a great restof the week.
I started in the trade that's seven years old,
passing out flyers.
And today our pricing system hashelped contractors add over$2
billion of additional revenueinto their businesses.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
Welcome to Profit and Grit with Tyler, where blue
collar owners and insiders spillthe real story behind their
hustle, building businesses thatthrive through sweat and smarts.
We'll dig into their journeysfrom scaling chaos to growing
the bottom line with lessons andgrit that pay off big.
Here's your host, the bluecollar CFO, Tyler Martin.
SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
Today we're talking with someone who's changing how
contractors sell without feelinglike salespeople.
Danielle Putnam is the CEO ofthe New Flat Rate.
This is a pricing system used byservice companies across the US,
Canada, and Australia that'shelped contractors add billions
(00:58):
of dollars in revenue to theirbusinesses.
She grew up in the trades,passing out flyers for her dad's
business at seven years old, andeventually built a company that
makes pricing simple, scalable,and profitable.
In this episode, we dig into thepsychology behind the
five-option pricing, how to fixyour billable hour rate, and why
(01:22):
most technicians don't hateselling, they just hate the
pressure.
This episode is about turningchaos into consistency, building
systems that sell for you, andproving that profit doesn't come
from working harder, it comesfrom pricing smarter.
Let's talk with Danielle now.
Hey Danielle, welcome to theProfit and Grit Show.
(01:45):
How are you today?
SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
Tyler, I'm awesome.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you.
I loved how when we started, itmakes me want to do this in the
future.
I think whenever people comeinto my Zooms from now on,
they're gonna come into music.
SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
Well, for those who don't know, Tyler invites me on
this show and I shared my music.
I was like, let's jam out to mystuff.
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Clearly, I need to fire people up.
I you I you just you just showedme how that can fire me up,
even.
So that was awesome.
So I want to learn about you.
Let's start first.
Tell me a little bit about whatyou do professionally.
Just touch on it just so we canunderstand what you're about.
And then I want to learnsomething about you personally.
Maybe, maybe even the tidbitpeople don't commonly know about
you.
SPEAKER_02 (02:24):
Cool.
Well, today, Tyler, I'm the CEOof the New Flat Rate.
We are a software company, butwe're also a best practices and
a, I guess we say processdevelopment company because we
work with business owners tohelp them to work on actually
the sales process by using asystem and software.
So I run the daily operationsand growth and strategy.
(02:47):
We could talk about all day longthe hardships, the fun, the
good, the bad, the ugly, allthose things that come with
that.
Uh, I I love it though.
As a child, I always wanted tobe an entrepreneur.
And I feel like, you know,sometimes I question am I doing
a good job, a bad job?
I don't know, but I'm doing whatI wanted to do.
So I'll take that win.
And then uh personally, I mean,I have some awesome kids that
(03:09):
everybody knows that because Iflash them all over the place.
So I'm an adrenaline junkie, andin this season of life, I don't
really get to do that very much.
So this weekend for date night,my husband's like, Hey, did you
want to go to McKay's bookstore?
And I was like, Hey, did youwant to go jet skiing?
And so uh I think that you know,what people don't really know is
(03:33):
that I am a wife and a mother,and that comes first, right?
And I'm a business owner and Ilove what I do.
But I think ahead and I'm like,okay, on the calendar, I've got
a trade show expo coming up insix months.
Nobody else is going at thetheme.
I can sneak away and get on thatjet ski or sneak away and go do
something crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
Well, I felt like there was a hook there.
Did you do the bookstore?
Did you do the jet ski?
SPEAKER_02 (03:56):
He wins.
He always wins.
It's the bookstores.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, we're so separated here.
Do we have to be wild and crazyall the time?
I'm like, but I've been liketaking care of kids and the dogs
and the turtles and like, can'twe go do something fun?
So, but you know, that's notrealistic, Tyler.
We can't go do all that stuffevery day.
But what we can do, what I cando is right now I'm into
(04:19):
running.
And so we're gonna run our firstmarathon in December.
My husband and I are bothrunning it.
And so we're yeah, well, thankyou.
It is because it was one ofthose things that I always said,
please don't ever want to run amarathon.
Please don't ever want to run amarathon.
Like I never wanted to, and nowall of a sudden, I'm loving the
thrill of every day, thetraining.
And what's your training plan?
What are you doing today?
What about this?
What about that?
(04:39):
What are you eating?
What are you drinking?
It's fun.
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
You've already done like a 20, because I I know I've
read this off your LinkedIn.
Haven't you already gone 20miles in your preparation?
In a week, not at one time.
Oh, what's the farthest you'vegone so far?
SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
Yeah.
Years ago, pre-kids, you know,when I was trying my first time,
again, like this is like 15years ago, I was up to like 15
miles.
And then I got a foot injury andwhatever.
And here we are 15 years later.
Right now, my farthest is eightmiles.
That's pretty good.
So I'm getting up.
That's pretty good.
Well, I'm getting there, right?
But it's it's a thing.
Like you got to plan in advance.
And so then two weeks ago, I wasbrowsing Netflix as I was
(05:15):
running early in the morninglooking for a movie to listen
to, and I fell and I hurt mykneecap.
So I struggled for two weeks,and finally on Friday I went and
got an X-ray.
And she's like, You just need tostay off of it for two more
weeks.
The inflammation will go.
Anyway, that's way too long ofan intro.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
I that's okay.
That's a good one.
I did a half marathon last year,and it took me three years to do
it.
Because the first two times Idid it, I kept pulling a calf
muscle.
Oh, and I just, you know, I'dget halfway into it, and then my
calf muscle would hurt, and Isaid, Oh, forget it, and I'd
quit.
And then last year I did it, andI will tell you, I have the
utmost respect that you're uhtaking the challenge on the the
(05:52):
full marathon because halfmarathon was really challenging
for me.
Like I did it and I made it noproblem, but man, I was
fatigued.
And I doubling that just makesme like my mind spin.
SPEAKER_02 (06:04):
It sounds horrific.
Like nobody should ever do it.
I know.
SPEAKER_01 (06:08):
Then you got these people doing ultra marathons and
stuff.
So hey, two each is own, right?
SPEAKER_02 (06:12):
They are crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (06:14):
Okay, I want to get into uh first section here.
I want to learn about you.
And and so when you when youstarted at a very young age, I
think around seven years old,you were actually passing out
flyers in Georgia and theGeorgia Heat.
And I think that kind of startssometimes your entrepreneurial
type roots.
And I believe you also had atrades family.
So I want to learn a little bit,maybe we can spend a couple of
(06:34):
minutes here.
Talk about that and just kind ofyour family growing up and how
you envisioned someday being anentrepreneur.
Was that something you alwaysthought about, or it just uh
kind of formed in the last, youknow, when you started new flat
rate pricing?
SPEAKER_02 (06:46):
You know, Tyler, I think about it all the time.
You know, they say thatformative years are zero to
eight or zero to twelve.
And and birth order plays a rolein there too.
There was nine kids in ourfamily.
I was secondborn.
So I feel like, you know, I wastaking care of younger kids a
lot, but I was secondborn, butfirstborn girl.
So then you got all these thingsgoing on.
At seven, my dad had beenworking at an industrial
(07:09):
electrical company, and my momkept encouraging him, saying,
Hey, Rodney, if you start yourown business, the kids and I
will help you.
And so that summer, you know,that I talk about the AC was out
in the station wagon, and so itwas very hot, and we're all
sitting in the back of thestation wagon driving door to
door and passing out flyers.
And I remember kind of the fearof rejection, walking in, you
know, passing out a flyer.
(07:30):
What if they say no?
But I'm seven, what are theygonna say?
Right.
And so, you know, I I think,yeah, a lot of the, hey, if you
want something in life, you haveto do something about it,
probably did come out of thoseyears because my dad wanted a
business and we experiencedbeing a part of that, the doing
something with him.
(07:50):
And then when I was 12, I usedto ride my bike through the
neighborhood to Mrs.
Richardson's house, and Icleaned her house for her every
Saturday until I was 18.
So all my friends are doingother things on Saturday
mornings when they're, you know,older, 16, 17, 18.
But I was still going to MissRichardson's, cleaning her house
for$5 an hour, even when I was18.
(08:10):
And I was over there for fourhours.
So I got$20,$20 a week at MissRichardson's house.
And every Friday I would callher, be like, hey, you know,
Miss Richardson, do you want metomorrow?
And she said, you know,Danielle, just automatically
come every week and call me Doc.
My name's not Miss Richardson.
It's Doc.
And I was like, no, no.
So every Friday, hey, MissRichardson, do you want me
tomorrow?
So I confirmed the job everysingle week from 12 years old to
18 years old.
(08:31):
And then I went and I did thatand I got, but that because
Tyler, I wanted that guaranteedincome and I wanted to grow my
savings.
I wanted things.
I wanted, right?
And so I don't know that I canpinpoint because even looking at
my own kids, I'm like, allright, you have to work to get
what you want.
And then we have to work to eat.
Like you try to instill thingsin them, but some of them
(08:51):
automatically are like,somebody's gonna buy my meal.
I don't have to work, you know,but then the other ones work
harder.
Like, I do think some of it's inour DNA and natural.
I want to say that there issome.
You know, some of it'supbringing, but some of it is
who you are.
And from an early age, I wantedto build things.
I wanted to be an entrepreneur.
SPEAKER_01 (09:10):
So did your dad have a trades business?
Is that in were you did you getinvolved in that anyway, other
than like flyers and stuff, orwere you actually going out on
job sites with them?
Like how involved?
Sounds like you you've alwayskind of had a pretty tight
family nucleus among you whereyou guys all kind of think of
each other in terms of yourbusinesses and stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (09:30):
Yeah.
We so in um when I was in highschool, I was homeschooled
because I, you know, I tried togo to public school and I was
like, now we're sitting here allday long in class.
And so if I was homeschooled,then I could be sitting in the
office all day long.
And I did school at nightbecause at this time he he we
started the he started theelectrical service business, but
then he had bought an HVAC and aplumbing business.
(09:52):
And so we were in all three whenI was in high school.
So I worked in the office andthen of course ran parts and was
constantly going between jobsand doing parts and working in
the warehouse with theinventory.
What I loved about it, and Ibragged about this, Tyler, is
that I was able to see so manyaspects of business that my
peers didn't get to see, right?
And so, you know, yeah, you'vegot you've got your payables and
(10:13):
your receivables, and you've gotyour inventory, and you know,
just the hiring, the firing, thescheduling, the customer
service, the hey, the phone'snot ringing today.
What are we gonna do about it?
We have to do something.
So your grit, you know, I loveprofit and grit.
Grit comes in of, yeah,nothing's happening in business
today.
We have to make it happen.
And at some point down the line,it'll be rolling on its own.
(10:35):
You don't have to do so muchgrit to get to that profit.
So I was involved in thebusiness, and we are.
I like that you actually pick upon that.
My siblings and I are all veryuh connected in each other's
businesses.
And, you know, we've got some ofus have some properties
together, and then um, some ofus are, you know, just
constantly cheering each otheron and referring, and it's fun.
SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
That's cool.
I know it's it's nice.
I have a similar situation.
I have two older sisters, and weall were raised in the same
general area.
I mean, we grew up, boughthouses, all stay in the same
area.
So it we overlap a lot in thingsuh when we're doing stuff.
So it's it's cool when you havewhen we're blessed.
Fortunately, we're blessed.
Not everybody has that thatblessing to have my family all
(11:18):
being close.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it is.
And there's some there's somethat don't work with us, right?
Everybody's like, oh, you guyshave a family business?
We're like, yeah, but likeeverybody doesn't automatically
get to work in it.
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
Um, so now I want to kind of move into from going
from that childhood to moving upto new flat rate.
Like, what was your thoughtprocess on starting like a flat
rate business?
And it was that, did you learnthat from your dad's business?
Like where you said, hey, was hedoing that?
Or did you say he should havebeen?
Maybe in your mind you werethinking, or where does this
(11:50):
idea come from?
SPEAKER_02 (11:51):
I wanted to be in fashion and design.
I had so many sketchbooks filledwith designs, you know, and then
I would go and I would buy bluejeans from all the thrift stores
and I would create these coolpatches on them.
And I was like, I'm gonna be amillionaire by selling these
awesome blue jeans.
So I was totally not thinkingflat rate, right?
But still thinking business.
(12:11):
So I would try all kinds ofthings.
I try, I wanted to sell to FridaLay.
Oh, good golly.
I don't think I've ever toldthis story publicly like this.
But my roommates and I, when Ilived in California, I was
constantly going to the Hispanicmarket, well, to the Mexican
markets and to the stores andgetting all these ingredients.
And I was trying to make thiscertain kind of dip.
Anyway, so it wasn't flat rate.
(12:32):
Let me get back on point.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
When I was I feel like there's a good story there,
though, but okay.
SPEAKER_02 (12:37):
Uh, every weekend we were trying.
I was trying to make thistortilla soup dip.
And I wanted, I like I had the Iwas gonna have the factory and
everything.
It was gonna be the best stuffin the world.
So we every weekend I was liketrying all these batches, and my
girlfriends were like, nope, notquite there yet.
Now you're getting closerconstantly.
So I didn't make it big into theinto the chips and dip market.
SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
So next thing.
SPEAKER_02 (12:55):
Next thing, right?
But then I was working at asoftware company, it was a
startup, and Tyler, I just alsostill got to be involved in all
the areas of the business, whichI loved.
But my dad, as a contractor, hadbeen having great seasons in in
business and terrible seasons inbusiness, and it was very much
fluctuating all the time.
And so we'd talk about businessand he he had the idea because
(13:16):
all of a sudden, after years andyears of of struggle trying to
figure out how to make hisbusiness work better, they
stumbled upon some peace andsome profit.
And that was with the power ofthe menu by pricing right.
And so as he was telling methese stories, he's like, I want
to tell more people, I want tohelp more other business owners,
more contractors to be able todo this too.
I said, Well, you should.
(13:37):
You should do something aboutthat.
He's like, Yeah, we could startthis company called Just One
Look, or we could walk in theirbusiness on a Tuesday and put
money in their bank by Friday.
So I've got it behind this, I'vegot a coffee cup up there that
says, you know, just one look.
And I was like, Yeah, you shoulddo that.
He said, Well, I can't do itwithout you.
And Tyler, I've been fortunatebecause, you know, there's some
that are visionary and some thatare operational, and then
(13:58):
there's some that can do both,right?
And so he was very much thevisionary and I was the
operator.
And so because I had left and Iwas out on my own, had my own
career going on, that when Imoved back and I said, you know
what, let's start this companytogether, there was a different
level of respect.
It wasn't, you know, just fatherand daughter of, oh yeah, right.
(14:18):
It was very different.
We came in as partners rightaway.
And then my brother and sister,Melody and Matt, they joined us
too and they came in.
So together we were partners of,wait a minute, we've got
something here that willactually help people.
And to this day, that's one ofour foundational core values is
to help, because that's what wewant to do.
We're like, we found a way to beable to have a profitable
company in the service business,and we want to share that with
(14:41):
other people.
And so once we just stumbledupon that, that was through the
power of pricing.
So then we kept building.
It wasn't, I wish it was achildhood dream.
SPEAKER_01 (14:50):
So was the vision, so it is the vision that the
flat rate pricing for all tradesindustries is it mostly just
HVAC?
Like what's your like what'syour vision in terms of how that
that can apply?
SPEAKER_02 (15:02):
We did, we did HVAC.
We did HVAC, we had a price bookfor HVAC, and then they were
knocking on the doors saying,hey, we have to have plumbing.
This is working.
Our service tickets are growing,our technicians are thrilled,
we've got consistency.
Like all of a sudden we've gotmoney in the bank.
This is working.
We have to have plumbing.
And Rodney, our dad's like, Idon't know how to write a
plumbing book for that.
(15:23):
That's tough.
And so my brother Matt and Iwere like, we're gonna figure
out how to write this plumbingbook.
And so a couple months later, wecome and we drop a big ol' boom,
here you go.
There's the plumbing book.
And uh we've we figured it out,but by working with contractors,
right?
So we're working with masterplumbers and we write this
plumbing book, and then ofcourse, it moved over into
electrical, and then we had anelectrical book.
And so for the past 14 years,Tyler, we've been HVAC,
(15:44):
electrical and plumbing, flatrate price books with the menu.
And now, tomorrow, I know thatthis show is gonna air after
that, but tomorrow uh we'relaunching a beta platform, a
completely new software systemthat's gonna allow us to go into
all verticals.
And so I'm really excited.
So, whether it's, you know,garage doors and roofing and
windows and pest control andlandscaping, hardscaping, I'm
(16:09):
really excited and that'slaunching in beta tomorrow.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
So when when we talk flat rate pricing, a lot of
times the pushback will be, oh,you can't do that.
There's too many variables, itwon't work, especially in the
trades.
And let's just use HVAC inparticular.
That's the pushback you'll get,like nine out of 10 times.
What's your thought when youhear that?
Like, is is it just, or how doyou simplify it so it is
possible?
SPEAKER_02 (16:32):
Yeah, Tyler, they're not wrong.
What was so hard for us even inthe beginning is how many parts
and how many manufacturers.
So how are you gonna?
So all the flat rate price bookswere huge because you've got all
these manufacturers, all thesedifferent kinds of parts, and
then all, you know, all these, Imean it was unbelievable.
And so we bundled and we did amenu.
We said, all right, and we tookthe we took the the name brands
(16:53):
out of it and the part names outof it.
We said, All right, if we're atthe kitchen sink, what is the
best service we can do at thekitchen sink?
The very best, and that's thetop.
And then, you know, we canchange it and go down to we had
five different price points forwhat we could do in a kitchen
sink, no matter what brand, whatkind of part, and things like
that.
So we took those out so that wecould actually begin to clarify
(17:14):
what we could do for thecustomer.
And it took 14 years.
So uh it was our our head ofproduct says the other day,
Danielle, do you know we have73,000 menus?
No, I didn't know that.
73,000.
Oh, you don't say, but it did sothat that was definitely that's
a true objection.
That was difficult.
But we just over time we builtthem, we wrote them, we thought
(17:36):
through.
And now we've got the power ofAI all over the place, Tyler.
But it'll walk you right off acliff if you don't watch out for
it.
And so we really had to use alot of human thinking along with
this too.
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
So this five option psychology, what what is the
psychology behind it?
Like, so there's, I'm assuming,a high, the very highest price
point, and then there's a verylow price point.
Is that something about us asconsumers uh that we like to
see?
Or take me through what thethinking is on that.
SPEAKER_02 (18:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, you're probably veryfamiliar, uh, along with
everybody else listening, withgood, better, best, right?
If the term is good, betterbest.
And so whether you're gonna buya pair of shoes or a new drill
or you're gonna have a servicedone in your home, uh, so often
as service professionals,they're busy, they come in and
out, hey Tyler, it's gonna costX amount to fix it.
They give you one price, andyou're like, oh, rats, I guess
(18:25):
I'm just gonna have to do it.
That's the only choice that I'vegot, right?
And so with the power of themenu, we can say, all right,
Tyler, instead of just oneprice, it's here's here's your
three options, right?
Good, better, or best.
The minute you start offeringoptions, then your mind can
expand in agreement with themof, oh, they're here helping me.
I've got options.
I'm not backed into a corner.
(18:46):
Now, good, better, best, that'sa start because the minute you
offer more options, you canchoose to buy more without any
sales pressure.
If there's only one price,that's all you got.
But if they add two on top ofthat, you might want more.
We went with five because uhstatistics, data, economists,
smarter people than me haveproven that the mind
(19:08):
automatically removes twooptions.
So when you have three options,good, better, best, the mind's
gonna remove two.
If I can do that, gonna removetwo, and then you just got one.
So you're kind of backed intothat corner again, right?
But if you have five and themind removes two, then you still
have three and you still have amiddle.
And humans like the safety zoneof the middle.
80% of humans buy in the middle.
(19:29):
And since we know that they'regonna do that, let's give them
that landing place, right?
They want something a little bitabove the low option.
Now, I do think and love havinglost leaders or very affordable
basic bottom options that getyou in the door, very
competitive in your marketplace.
Absolutely.
But don't leave it there becausepeople do want to do more with
(19:51):
you.
They want a better service.
They want, you know, whetherit's a brand or a part or
something else that's in thehome, we got to give those
options so they can buy more.
So the psychology is that whengiven choices, people will 80%
of the time move themselves upto a higher option.
And you want that as a businessowner.
You want that.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
Sure.
And then is the top pricing, isthat more of like an anchor in
terms of how we're pricing it,or is that truly like a
competitive premium pricing?
Like, are we, when I say anchor,like we're it's you know, two or
three times higher than whatanyone would pay just because it
makes the middle one look thatmuch more attractive, or is it a
true like premium pricing?
SPEAKER_02 (20:30):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Um, sometimes it's three timesthe bottom price.
I mean, it depends on you knowthe market and the and the
product and the differentthings.
But the the secret, yeah, and wehave so much data and and we've
tested and tested and tested inevery state all over the US,
Canada, and Australia, is thatthe spread can't be too great.
(20:51):
Okay, it's gotta be enough towhere psychologically they
possibly could move up.
So you don't really want the topoption to be like knocked out of
the park so that yeah, now thatthat middle one looks
affordable.
No, we want them to actually beable to reach it if that's what
they want.
And so it's gotta be just anice, even step.
And that's how humans and mindscan kind of choose the level
(21:12):
that they want.
And we've tested it all over theplace, and that's where it
performs the best.
What we found how your pricing,if you want to start practicing
with your pricing, is that ifpeople and it's data, right?
Math tells us all kinds ofthings.
If your customers are alwaysonly choosing your bottom
option, or if they're alwaysonly choosing your top option,
that's not where you want to be.
If they're choosing your bottomoption only, the top options
(21:35):
probably are too expensive.
And so you're gonna want to playwith that.
If they're always choosing thetop, well then the bottom's too
cheap.
So the numbers will tell Yeah,that makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
Since we know 80% of the time people are gonna pick
the middle, is that the sweetspot in terms of our
profitability too?
SPEAKER_02 (21:51):
Mm-hmm.
It is.
Now, depending on how you wantto build your pricing, right?
Your top option might have alonger warranty.
It might have things like that.
With our top options, we have areturn visit.
And so that that is gonna becost.
You're gonna be rolling thattruck again, going back out
there to your check and makingsure everything is in as great
of a condition as it is todaywhen we leave.
And so that middle option ismore profitable because you
(22:12):
don't have as long of awarranty.
You're not doing that returnvisit.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (22:16):
Okay.
And then one of the pushbacksthat I've heard on flat rate
pricing is owners will say,Well, that means I'm gonna lose
money sometimes because priceschange and things change.
And if I'm gonna be a flat rate,sometimes it's just I'm gonna
lose money on some project.
Do I just have to accept that?
What's your thoughts when youhear that?
SPEAKER_02 (22:37):
So they you know, they they don't have to.
They could, yes.
So let's say you got a flat rateand all of a sudden, you know,
this has happened many times,all of a sudden the prices of
things go up and oh, you haven'tprinted your book or you haven't
hit update on your app, right?
You didn't have those.
So in our system, we havelevels.
So you can use a level one,level two, level three.
And so if prices changeovernight, just use a level two
(22:58):
page and all of a suddeneverything's adjusted, right?
But if you don't have that, ifyou don't have a system that
accounts for that, I would goback instead and I would say,
but what about all the jobs thatyou're not pricing enough on?
Right?
Like you're already losing moneyin other areas because you're
under you're undercharging oryou wouldn't even be thinking
about it or listening to thiscall today.
(23:19):
And so I believe that people arequestioning their prices.
Am I priced right?
No, probably not.
If you're questioning it.
So the flip of that is allright, you think that you're
gonna not go to a flat rate or aset price or increase your
prices because, well, somethingmight change.
Things change all the time.
And you need to be testing yourpricing all the time.
You need to be changing yourpricing all the time, you need
to update your pricing all thetime.
Yeah, it's living and breathing.
(23:40):
Like it's not a one-time done,it's all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Yeah.
That's kind of my response too.
You said it more, more uhclearly than I probably will.
But I'm just like, hey, if youtake a hundred jobs and you lose
a small amount on one, but if itmeans 99 times you're getting
the ideal sweet spot in terms ofyour pricing, and oh, by the
way, you're spending a fractionof the time and you're closing
more sales, it kind of becomes ano-brainer if you look at the
(24:04):
big picture.
But I am telling you, I justhave talked with people and they
it's their hang up.
They're like, oh, that means mylittle PVC pipe went up by 10
cents, and I'm not gonna havethat factored in.
And it's like, yeah,unfortunately, it's gonna be a
couple jobs that you might beoff a little bit on your PVC
pricing.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (24:21):
You know where we see people are missing out more
though, is their billable hourisn't correct.
SPEAKER_01 (24:25):
Yeah, that's a big one.
SPEAKER_02 (24:26):
They've got their billable hour set so low, and
well, you know, you're infinance world, right?
So their billable hour is notadjusted accordingly.
And so they're even if they moveto flat rate today, like they're
not usually priced enough.
They don't have their theiroverhead and everything
calculated in.
And if they did, there'd beenough margin.
That pipe goes up 10%.
You've still got margin inthere.
SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
It's a huge one.
You know, one of the firstthings I'll do with the client
is a break-even analysis, andthen, hey, where do you want to
be at in terms of profit margin?
And I'm telling you, theirhourly billing rate is usually
off by two or three hundreddollars an hour from what they
think it is.
And it just blows my mind.
I had a guy just a couple ofweeks ago say it was 200 bucks
an hour.
(25:06):
His son had calculated it.
We went through the actualnumbers and it was five,
something like 550 an hour.
SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
Yes, that's exactly what we see too.
I know, right?
And so then it's scary forpeople.
Like, well, if I actually usethe the accurate pricing, that's
scary.
It feels like too much.
What if I'm gonna get pushbackfrom my customers?
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
Yeah.
So so in these five options, itsounds like you guys get pretty
creative because you said like atrip coming back.
Do you get pretty creative interms of what these different
packages, I'll call them,include?
Like what are some variationsthat you commonly would see?
SPEAKER_02 (25:38):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, like I mentioned.
So somebody told me the otherday, they're like, you should
not use hamburgers, you shoulduse hotels.
Well, I haven't printed out asheet with hotels on it.
I have hamburgers.
SPEAKER_01 (25:50):
So we're looking at a picture for the folks
listening.
You've got a picture ofhamburgers and you're making me
hungry, by the way.
SPEAKER_02 (25:55):
Yeah, yeah.
So I've got yeah, I'm glad thatyou said that for those that are
just listening.
But the top value here, let'ssay it's a Big Mac or whatever
your favorite hamburger is.
Our place here in town is calledWillie's.
And on Willie's, you know,you're gonna eat on that
hamburger for a week.
But you have all of the thingsthat you can put on a hamburger.
You're gonna have all yourcondiments, you're gonna have,
you know, double patties, you'regonna have your cheese, you're
gonna have everything.
Down at the bottom, it's just abasic hamburger.
(26:17):
And so we are creative when welook at what we can do in the
home, whether it's an airconditioner or you know, a
ceiling fan.
It's okay, I can replace theceiling fan.
We can go with a differentproduct, a different brand
manufacturer, you know, morepremium.
But then also, do you want aremote?
And then let's uh all thewiring.
Do we need to upgrade all thewiring that's connected with the
ceiling fan?
(26:38):
And so we're still thinkingabout one area.
I'm looking up because there's aceiling fan above me right now,
but we're focused on what is thevery best?
So we ask craftsmen, we askthese technicians, what's the
very best that you could do forthis ceiling fan?
And they actually have greatideas.
They're like, oh, well, I can dothis, this, and this, and then I
can actually repaint the ceilingaround it and this and this and
this too, and I'll sweep and mopthe floor underneath.
(27:00):
That's added value and youshould be paid for that, get
paid for what you're worth,right?
The customer doesn't want tocome home and have the dust all
on the floor.
And I mean, I can't stand itwhen we get electrical work done
in the house and there'sfingerprints all over the
ceiling.
Like, what am I gonna get thatdown?
Right.
But when they leave a beautifulworkspace afterwards, and the
customer can be like, oh mygosh, look what happened today.
You can charge for that.
(27:20):
And even those things are builtinto that top option.
It's all the added wow factor,all the way down to just, oh,
you just want me to swap thatout and leave?
You got it.
SPEAKER_01 (27:28):
What do you do for folks that are skeptical about
going to a flat rate pricing?
Like, do you have a certain waythat you encourage them, allow
them to test it, or get them tobe open-minded about it?
Any any particular process thatyou follow when they're
skeptical?
SPEAKER_02 (27:43):
You know, that's a good question.
I wonder what our sales teamdoes about that.
You know, I don't know.
You know, but when when talkingto business centers, it's well,
that's what's the pain?
What's the real pain?
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:54):
What's really keeping you up at night?
A question that I know that weask a lot is do you believe that
anybody on your team could beleaving money on the table?
And everybody emphatically says,yes, we leave money on the table
all the time, right?
And and that's in everybusiness.
We all know that.
Yes, there's, you know, we'vegot efficiency loss.
Yes, we could we could be loselosing money in different areas.
Well, are you ready to dosomething about it or are you
(28:16):
not?
So, you know, we we work bestwith companies that don't want
to just kick kick the tires.
They're really ready to actuallychange and they're ready to
commit.
SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
Yeah.
What a great way to open adiscussion though.
Do you think you're leavingmoney on the table?
Because who doesn't uh inbusiness feel like you know we
could always be doing somethinga little better, bidding a
little higher, closing morejobs?
That's a great, great openingsegue to start a conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (28:40):
Yeah, we could even be following up more.
unknown (28:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:43):
Yeah.
So so that is one way.
SPEAKER_01 (28:46):
So I want to talk a little bit about uh technicians
and how that relates to thisflat rate pricing.
A lot of times you know, we geta little weird about technicians
selling.
How does this flat rate pipricing fall into that?
SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
You know, we would love it if every technician was
duplicatable, the superstars,the ones that that are great
salesmen and great with customerservice.
And there are some wonderfulones out there.
But for those that aren't, thatmaybe that's not their sweet
spot.
Maybe they don't like talking tothe customers as much.
They like to fix things.
And right now we've got a wholelot more of diversity of
(29:24):
language, right?
So some of them can't talk tothe customers so much.
And so we've got to help with asystem, the system that does the
a piece of that, the process.
And so for us, it's that's thepiece that we play in this, is
or the part that we play inthis, I should say, is the the
pricing.
So I don't want to go too longon my answer.
Can you rephrase the questionagain?
SPEAKER_01 (29:45):
Yeah, no problem.
You you answered it actuallyperfectly.
I want to there's a subset tothat question though.
After like you've implemented aflat rate pricing scenario, what
have you heard technicians say?
Have they said, hey, this islike life changing, it makes my
process so much easier?
Like what are some What's somefeedback you've received?
SPEAKER_02 (30:02):
When they start to get performance pay and these
bonuses that they've never seenbefore or never thought
possible, the text messages thatwe get back of you changed my
life.
And so it's called our memberexperience team.
They're downstairs here in theoffice.
It's their tight-knit team.
They're just like, guess what?
And they're constantly showingtheir text messages to each
(30:23):
other of look what so-and-so,you know, just said.
Like, that's a big deal, Tyler.
But these technicians are ableto make more money than they
thought possible just becausethey show a pricing system.
A homeowner bought more and theydidn't have to sell.
They didn't have to have thestress or think.
They just had to follow aprocess that was provided by
their company.
The company says, Hey, here'sthe process, just follow it.
(30:45):
So they walk in, they greet thecustomer, they find the problem,
they do the diagnosis, and theyshow some options.
The customer chooses a higherlevel and then they get bonus
based on the level that thecustomer chooses.
When they choose those higheroptions, and the technician gets
to do what they want to do.
A great quality repair job.
And then they're getting bonusfor it.
So it's such a win-win awesomescenario.
(31:06):
They love it.
Now, on the flip side of that,do we have technicians that are
like, hey, I don't want to tryanything new?
All the time.
SPEAKER_01 (31:12):
All the time, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:13):
All the time.
And so we just ask for achampion in the truck.
Who's going to try it first inthe company?
SPEAKER_01 (31:18):
So is the pay for performance, is that part of
your methodology?
Is that something you help whensomeone comes in and does flat
rate pricing, they work withyou?
Do you also help them implementthat pay for performance part of
it?
SPEAKER_02 (31:31):
We do.
Tyler, as a business owner, Iknow you feel this and me too.
Sometimes you know that there'san area of your business that
you should put a process inplace.
So it could be a newcompensation plan, it could be a
new policy for your company oryour team or whatever, right?
And I feel the pressure of uh Ineed that time where I can focus
to actually write out thatprocess and build it, right?
(31:51):
So what's exciting is we'vealready done that piece of it.
So when we start working withthese business owners, these
contractors, here is theperformance plan that we
recommend that works really wellwith this.
And so then we'll train them,we'll set it up for them, we'll
help them implement it, roll itout to their technicians.
And it is a piece of it.
We do a lot of training andcoaching.
And some of that is implementingprocesses.
(32:14):
Some of it is, you know, itcould just be encouraging, like
the they call them virtualride-alongs.
The technicians call our team,our tech support guys to say,
hey, this is where I'm at.
I'm out in the field, I'm onthis call.
This is what I'm looking at.
What do you think I should do?
And so our guys are able to say,Well, what were you thinking?
And the techs are like, Well,you know, you know, X, Y, Z.
That's a great.
Why don't we do that?
(32:35):
That sounds perfect.
Let's do that, right?
And so it's just somebody therewith them.
So we do a whole lot more thanthat than I even talk about.
And and that is a differentiatorthat I love about the new flat
rate is we're still such peoplepeople.
SPEAKER_01 (32:46):
If if the technician can actually call you, it sounds
like you're getting in on theground level in terms of
supporting the client.
It's much more than justnecessarily flat rate pricing.
It's their whole process.
SPEAKER_02 (32:57):
It is.
Because you know, anybody cancan have a price book, but to be
able to have a system that yourwhole team follows with menus
and options that customers canbuy more, it's the automatic
selling that's happening.
And that's, you know, Iencourage people that are
thinking about their pricing andwhat changes should they make is
what could they do so that theircustomers can ask those magic
(33:19):
questions?
So what processes or scripts canbe put in place?
Hey, instead of repairing today,how much for a replacement?
Or, hey, you know, I saw thatyou had such and such.
Can I try that?
We want to help the customer tobe able to buy more.
SPEAKER_01 (33:33):
What do you see most commonly when you're working
with the trades company, whetherit be HVAC, electrical, or
plumbing?
What do you see the biggestmistake they're making as it
relates to sales and growingtheir revenue?
A lack of system, relying on aperson to do it.
Consistency, basically.
SPEAKER_02 (33:49):
Well, and and relying on a person.
You're saying, all right, so sotoday I've got Tyler and you're
a superstar salesperson, butTyler, you're not with me
forever.
And all of a sudden you're gone,and I don't have another Tyler.
So now who's selling?
Well, but when you have a systemthat anybody that sits in that
seat can do, that's the secretsauce that keeps it going, is
you got to have the system, notthe not dependent on the person.
(34:10):
And that's with any business,right?
People run the processes, butyou got to have the processes in
place for them to follow andrun.
SPEAKER_01 (34:16):
What's a timeline if someone were to engage you?
Like what's a timeline to gofrom, hey, I really have no
infrastructure to now I have aprocess, I have flat rate
pricing.
What does that typically looklike?
SPEAKER_02 (34:27):
Within the first week, we've got you up and
running on the software and theapp.
We've onboarded you, but wemight take 30 days, depending on
your team, to get your wholeteam up and going.
We want to make sure thateverybody's confident, that the
mindset's ready, that uh, youknow, they saw, hey, there's a
one of the technicians tried itfirst.
It was successful.
All right, now we'll all we'llall try.
(34:47):
We want to look at results.
We want to look at the numbers,just like you, right?
What were your numbers before?
What are your numbers now?
We want to be analyzing thatwith them along the way.
So it could go anywhere from aweek to 30 days.
SPEAKER_01 (34:58):
Wow.
Okay, that's a the very fairtimeline.
That's not too too far out.
How does this integrate withlike some of the packages that
are that are out there, likeService Titan, we'll say job or
maybe house call pro.
Does this is this independent ofthem, or are you doing the price
book in like a service Titan,but with a flat rate pricing
methodology set up in it?
SPEAKER_02 (35:19):
We have a full API with Service Titan and House
Call Pro.
We have soft integrations withthe others.
And so they can have you knowcopy and paste their information
in there, have import files inthere, or with the APIs,
everything goes directly.
So it is separate.
The the FSMs write ours is kindof like the inventory, the task
codes and all that that go inthere, but they are separate
(35:40):
softwares.
SPEAKER_01 (35:40):
Oh, how cool.
But it just feeds right into it.
The data feeds right in.
So it's no different than Imean, CHIRP comes to mind the
way CHIRP kind of integrates asan outside package.
Very cool.
I like that.
Last thing I want to talk aboutis just the whole family
business angle of this.
Sometimes, you know, a lot of uhtrades businesses are family
businesses, and you know,friction can happen within
(36:02):
family businesses, people can beon different pages.
How have you found running yourown business?
Your dad started out with it.
What was that like being in thefamily business?
Does that is that power innumbers, or is it sometimes it
slows you down in your growthbecause people have different
ideas in the family?
What does that look like foryou?
SPEAKER_02 (36:19):
You know, Tyler, if I can be honest, I was in
denial.
Everybody was like, Oh, you're afamily business.
No, we're not.
We just work together.
And I was in denial for years.
And because I was in denial foryears, I didn't recognize the
glass ceilings that we wereputting on ourselves.
Sure.
Right?
That there were certain thingsthat you accepted because we
were all family.
And so it took me years to cometo the reality of being honest
(36:42):
and accepting we are a familybusiness.
That's not a bad thing.
It just means we have to holdeach other accountable
differently.
And we might need outside peopleto help hold us accountable.
And so when my dad and I ran thecompany together, uh, it was
very easy.
It was very easy.
We were best friends, you know,he had the idea, I was helping
to implement, and he let me runa run a company.
(37:03):
And I always wanted to do that.
So it's very easy.
As he began to phase out intoretirement, my brother and
sister and I became more ofpartners.
And that's where it gotdifficult because we did have
different visions.
And so where we wanted to go,where we thought the company
should be, our expectations werenot in alignment.
(37:25):
And so we avoided each other.
There was years of, you know,we're friendly at Christmas and
we might say hi to each other inmeetings, but we really avoided
and like we were siloed workingon our own things.
We weren't rowing in the sameboat until two years ago with
EOS.
So if you're familiar with theentrepreneur operating system,
EOS, when and we'd tried, Tyler.
We'd looked at, we'd flown allover the US trying to find a way
(37:48):
to operate the business inunison, you know.
And then somebody, you know,somebody would go to a show and
come back and be like, I got it.
Let's try this.
And then I'd go to a differentshow.
And and so we were constantlyconflicting about who had the
best ideas.
And so with EOS, I was like,nope, we're throwing every other
strategy out.
This is the one that we're goingwith.
And we started, we had we got animplementer with us and we
started having our meetings andgetting in alignment.
(38:10):
And it wasn't too long before Icould say, wow, we actually are
on the same team.
Like we are supporting eachother.
We want the same things, we wantto be working together and
growing a business together, andwe want it to be great for our
team.
And uh, it's really fun now.
Uh, but it was it was painful.
It was painful.
So first I had to be honest thatwe are a family business and
(38:31):
there are things that we'redoing sloppy because of that
that needed we needed to change.
And then, hey, we need a way tobe in unison again and we need a
strategic vision and a plan.
And so uh that's been reallyfun.
Now I love working withsiblings.
And and our niece, our niece isworking with us too, and she's
just climbing.
It's been so fun.
I have another niece who hasbeen here in the summers, and
(38:55):
then sometimes nephews will beworking on side projects and
stuff.
So I look forward to the daysone of my daughters came to,
well, a couple of my daughtershave come to trade shows and
worked the booths with us andstuff.
Um, but we hold them to astandard, right?
This is the way we do business.
If you're gonna work here, youdon't get freebies, you gotta
earn it.
And you start at the bottom andyou climb your way up.
So we could have learned a lotfaster.
(39:15):
I wish somebody would haveslapped us around sooner and
been like, you guys need tolearn.
SPEAKER_01 (39:19):
What do you think in EOS made it have you guys all
come together?
Was it the fat the fact thateverybody was the right person
in the right seat?
Was it accountability, a littlebit of everything?
Was it looking at metrics everyweek, scorecards?
What kind of brought youtogether?
And that was it, the implementerwas just so awesome in terms of
bringing you together.
Was there any one thing thatstood out?
SPEAKER_02 (39:39):
You know, in in the EOS world, there's a term called
the elephant in the room.
It probably got uh maybe it wasthe implementer that helped us
start talking about all theelephants in the room.
There were so many things wedidn't talk about, and it forced
those discussions.
And uh Yeah, yeah.
And once they're done, once youhave those uncomfortable
conversations, they're done.
SPEAKER_01 (40:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
And then everybody can just move forward and grow,
and you realize how stupid tohave been stumped on
uncomfortable conversations thatreally weren't that big of a
deal, or you're assuming, right?
Yeah, and so I do think in infamily businesses we assume too
much, we don't communicate.
SPEAKER_01 (40:16):
It's hard.
I mean, family businesses.
I mean, I know there's a lot oflisteners out in the audience
that are feeling this.
It's hard sometimes.
You've got your mom or your dador whoever, and it's just, you
know, sometimes that frictioninstantly pops up if you say the
wrong thing because it isfamily.
Yeah.
It's just, I just literally hada call earlier today, and
(40:37):
someone hired their niece intothe business.
They're way overpaying theirniece, like 30% more than anyone
else in the company, other thanownership, and um isn't really
carrying their weight, thisperson.
And it's it's a very delicatetopic because it's family.
SPEAKER_02 (40:53):
Yes, it is hard.
And so once you start, you said,you know, the right people on in
the bus, the right seats in thebus, once you start really
working with that organizationalchart, the accountability chart,
all the time, saying, all right,we've got this person.
Uh something that I like toencourage people to do is even
looking at that family memberand okay, they have to be
valuable.
So if this isn't the right seat,what can they do?
(41:16):
And where where are the metricsshowing what we're gonna hold
them accountable for?
Uh sometimes it's ownership'sfault.
We didn't clearly define this iswhat they're gonna be held
accountable for, and here's whogets to see it, right?
So the accountabilities have tobe set.
SPEAKER_01 (41:30):
Yeah, good, good stuff.
I like that.
Good feedback.
Okay, talked about a lot ofawesome stuff, talked about your
early years in terms of how itframed you.
Uh, we talked about the fiveoption psychology.
I love that, by the way.
Just the thinking of we tend totake one out from each side and
then end up in the middle.
So that's very cool.
We talked about just pricing ingeneral and how the flat rate
(41:51):
pricing could fit into a model,as well as the overall processes
and systems.
It's not just one little piece.
It's kind of looking at the bigpicture of the whole deal.
And then we talked about familybusinesses.
So I think we covered a lot.
Did I leave anything else out oranything else you want to talk
about before we wrap up?
SPEAKER_02 (42:07):
Yeah, I appreciate the time.
I appreciate you know, youasking about pricing.
Uh, I just want to encouragepeople to look at your pricing
and think about what you coulddo differently, because you're
the expert in your trade,whatever that is.
And so, what more value couldyou add and could you get paid
what you're worth?
And and I also like to say, youknow, let's make sure that we
don't give everything away forfree.
(42:28):
I know a lot of us like to havepre-strategy calls or, you know,
and we're helpful.
And our industry's home servicesare so helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (42:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (42:36):
But you deserve to get paid what you're worth.
And so I just want to encourageyou to take a look at what
you're giving away to say, whatwould happen if you actually
asked for payment for that?
You'd be surprised that peoplewould pay you.
SPEAKER_01 (42:48):
Yeah, that's good advice.
So your website, thenewflatrate.com, once again, the
newflatrate.com.
You're on LinkedIn as DanielleCoop.
So if people want to check youout on LinkedIn or talk with
you, and then I'll put yourSpotify.
It's kind of got a little bit ofa funky uh link to it.
So it's kind of hard to say overuh the podcast, but I'll put the
Spotify link for your podcast,the new flat rate, if people
(43:12):
want to check that out.
Anything I left out or where'sthe ideal place people should
reach out to?
Is it LinkedIn?
SPEAKER_02 (43:18):
Yeah, please do.
Add me on LinkedIn.
We'd love to be friends, get toknow you, and listen to our
podcasts for sure on Spotify.
But if you are interested inpricing or just a strategy
session, then you go to ourwebsite to get a demo.
SPEAKER_01 (43:30):
Thank you.
Appreciate you being on theshow.
You are awesome to talk with.
SPEAKER_02 (43:33):
Oh, Tyler, it's so great to hang out with you.
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (43:38):
What a fun conversation with Danielle.
What I enjoyed most out of thatconversation is just coming away
with the feeling that it's notjust about pricing, it's about
building systems that make yourbusiness predictable.
That's what every owner wants.
That's what we all want.
We want consistency, confidence,and cash flow that doesn't
depend on luck or long nights.
(44:00):
That's also where a good CFOcomes in.
My job is to help businessowners take the same kind of
structure Danielle built forpricing and apply it to their
finances.
So every decision, every hire,every investment is backed by
numbers, not guesswork.
If you're ready to see what thatlooks like, go ahead and book an
intro call either atcfomadeasy.com or
(44:21):
cfointrocall.com.
No pressure, no obligation.
We just chat for about 20minutes, see if potentially I
can help you.
And if I can, we can go fromthere.
If I can't, probably refer youto some people that I think
might be able to help forwhatever you got going on.
And last but not least, if youcould do me a big favor, if you
could leave, if you like thispodcast and you could leave a
(44:43):
review at wherever you get yourpodcast, that could be Spotify,
Apple, uh, I would greatlyappreciate it.
And uh can't thank you enoughfor listening.
And I hope you have a great restof the week.
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