August 22, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode, Daniel Honan sits down with Michael Jordan, a true industry titan who built a massive painting business employing over 70 painters and expanded into multiple service-based companies.
Mike opens up his 25-year playbook, sharing the exact strategies he used to break out of residential repaints and dominate the lucrative commercial and industrial painting space. If you're feeling stuck or ready to scale, this is a masterclass you can't afford to miss.
We dive deep into:
- The Commercial Leap: How to transition from residential to high-margin commercial/industrial jobs (and why they can be MORE profitable).
- Cash Flow Secrets: Navigating net-90 payments and funding massive projects using factoring companies—and why your bookkeeping is the key to unlocking this.
- Marketing to Decision-Makers: The proven inbound and outbound strategies to get in front of property managers and GCs and win their trust.
- The "Unfair Advantage": How specific business accreditations (like woman-owned or veteran-owned) can land you huge contracts you never thought possible.
- Building a Brand, Not Just a Business: Why becoming a subcontractor is a choice, and how to build a branded company that clients seek out.
Whether you're a solo operator or a multi-million dollar business, Mike's relentless mindset and practical advice will give you the blueprint to build a more profitable, scalable, and impactful company.
Tune in, take notes, and let’s grow your business, one episode at a time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running and scaling a
professional painting business,from the brushes and ladders to
the spreadsheets and balancesheets.
We've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice specifically
and tax information.
Nothing you hear on thispodcast should be considered as
financial advice specificallyfor you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
before making any significantfinancial decision.
Welcome to the ProfitablePainter podcast, the show where
(00:45):
painting contractors learn howto boost profits, cut taxes and
build a business that works forthem.
I'm your host, daniel Honan,cpa, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable, one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited.
Today I'm here with Mike fromRise Next Level.
(01:06):
He's a coach for marketing andsales strategies.
He has a large, very largebusiness out of Michigan, a
painting business out ofMichigan.
He employs over 70 painters andhe has several other
service-based businesses as well.
I'm super excited to have himon the podcast.
Welcome to the podcast, mike.
How's it going?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Daniel, first of all, thank you so much for having me
on the podcast.
I'm super excited.
This is an honor to be on hereand to discuss with you the
painting business and everythingfrom soup to nuts, from
marketing to closing out thebooks at the end of the year.
Things are going great and anice, beautiful day out there
(01:50):
and I'm happy to be here withyou talking about business.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
That's awesome.
Yeah, I'm excited to get intoit.
If you could just give folkslisteners an idea of where
you're coming from, when did youget started in the painting
industry and what have been somemajor milestones along the way.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, so I got started in 1999 in the painting
industry.
You know the first year wasbasically a year.
I got started with a friend ofmine that I met through
basketball and I knew nothingabout the painting industry and
was kind of learning the ropesfor the first year or two.
And you know, once I learnedthe ropes and once you're in the
(02:31):
, you know swimming, you startlearning things really quick and
I had a deep desire to succeed.
I didn't succeed in basketball,michael Jordan didn't succeed
in basketball, no point intending.
But you know, when thathappened I did have a deep
desire to succeed in business.
You know, help my family out.
(02:51):
And you know, live out goalsthat I had in life at that time
which have changed since then.
But you know, throughout theyears, you know, major
milestones in business was, youknow, getting my first office.
You know my first office.
You know I think we picked upright in about 2002.
And you know we looked for thecheapest rental space and you
(03:16):
know we only did it because weneeded it at that time where
people were coming and pickingup their checks and you know we
started to want to have aphysical address to look, you
know.
You know, more professional tothe customer and all that good
stuff.
And you know, you know that thatwas a major milestone to me,
getting that office.
I think when you do that youkind of you know you felt like,
(03:38):
wow, ok, I'm going to an office,you know, at 730, seven in the
morning every day, you know at7.30, 7 in the morning every day
.
So that kind of you knowsparked some things up.
And then, you know, the nextmajor milestone was I hired a
blueprint estimator because atthe time, you know, blueprint
estimating was and still is huge.
So that was a big milestone.
(04:00):
You know, hiring that you know,first, you know, blueprint
(04:30):
estimator, that firstsalesperson.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So those are big ones for me, because you're spending
money and at that time you'retrying to save up as much money
as possible and, you know, gotowards building up, you know
into investing into marketingand a staff that could really
perform and create a name foryourself.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
That's awesome.
So 2002, you get your firstoffice.
When did you hire that firstsalesperson, the blueprint
estimator?
So that was in 2002.
It was separately a salespersonthat I basically took
everything that I had learned in2000 and 2001.
Because 1999 was a year of liketrial and error, and you know
(05:02):
things that worked, that didn'twork and all that good stuff.
And I found that in the firstthree years I learned so much
about where to spend my time,where not to spend my time.
And I was fortunate enough toknow a gentleman that played on
my basketball team in college.
I played college basketball andhe at the time had graduated
and was looking for a job.
So he was like a sponge andwanted to learn.
(05:24):
And you know, every day I wouldgive him different tasks and
you know he started.
You know I would sit down withhim for hours, train him and
sometimes I would give from himMike, you know this company is
not going to work with us.
They said they're already setwith painters.
Now tell him, hey, how aboutthis?
I guarantee you we will workwith this company.
(05:46):
So and it was funny, I willcall that.
You know, the company and myapproach would be a little bit
different.
You know they would tell me, oh, we already got painters and
say, oh, no problem, no, Irespect that.
Obviously you guys are a greatcompany, already in business and
doing great work.
Is there any way?
I could just drop off my infoand at a time, you know, emails
weren't being used so much andwhatnot.
(06:07):
Can I drop off my info?
And, you know, guys, just keepit on hand in case you ever do
need, you know, a hand with apainting job or a small painting
job that your other guys can'tget into.
And I started using, I startedshowing them that obstacles are
disillusions, you know, and ifyou think that it's an obstacle
(06:28):
to get into that company, youbeat yourself.
Don't do that.
Figure out ways.
You know, create this list ofall the customers we are going
after and the ones that are hardto get into are harder to get
into, to get into or harder toget into.
We will find a way to get inwith them and start working with
(06:49):
them through being persistent,through being honest, through
showing that we want their work,through showing the quality of
work we do and then also, youknow, telling them listen, you
know.
You know how can we get achance.
You know, can I even paint, youknow, some walls in your office
for free.
So you know it was a lot ofdifferent techniques that I
taught him and you know hestarted thriving.
(07:12):
He got up to the point when hewas selling about 1.2, 1.3
million dollars for me and thatwas a big milestone.
And then that blueprint reader.
He also helped take us to thenext level because now we
weren't telling constructioncompanies and general
contractors that we can't workwith them anymore because or we
can't do their blueprint reading.
(07:33):
So we were able to take thoseon.
So we're doing residential work, repaints, all that good stuff.
But I also want to go after thebigger jobs, all that good
stuff, but I also want to goafter the bigger jobs.
So that was a big milestone thatI got through and you know
learned a lot from and you knowfeel that that's something that
is a obstacle for a lot ofpainters in the industry now.
(07:58):
But you know it's easily taughton how to get through that.
And if they say, well, I can'thire a blueprint reader now for
80, 90, a hundred thousanddollars, there's multiple routes
to get those blueprint,blueprint read, you know, and
you know put on a form that isvery respectable, to bid for
(08:21):
general contractors now and Ifind that that a lot of people
get held up with that but it'snot a problem anymore with
having a world climate and beingable to utilize technology.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, so back in 2002 , when you first got this
blueprint estimator, you werealready going after commercial.
Or were you doing mostlyresidential and you're just
trying to get into commercial atthat point, or?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, we were doing repaints and you know we said,
okay, we want to keep doingrepaints.
And at that time you had noFacebook.
Facebook wasn't even inventedyet.
You know, it was 2002, 2001,2000.
So we wanted to look at how canwe scale, how can we get more?
You know, you do the flyer thing, you knock on doors, you go
(09:11):
after your inner circle, thenetwork that you have, you go
after property managementcompanies, use the yellow pages
at that time, use flyers at thattime, use, you know, coupon
companies at that time.
So we were doing all thoseoptions and we were hitting all
those options of bringing inleads.
So we wanted to expand, wewanted to get into commercial
(09:34):
work and that's where we startedeven knocking on doors of
commercial buildings and some ofit worked, some of it didn't,
but I left no stone unturnedback then, just like I do now.
And you know some of it worked,some of it didn't, but I left
no stone unturned back then,just like I do now.
And you know I like to alwaysexplore and you know to me it's
an investment.
You don't always make money onthat investment, but I'm able to
(09:56):
help individuals and otherpainters and other companies,
you know, see where they want toget as far as their goals and
tell them what works and whatdoesn't work, so they get there
faster.
So you know, see where theywant to get as far as our goals
and tell them what works andwhat doesn't work, so they get
there faster.
So you know, that's some of thethings that we did back then.
And then we got into blueprintreading because, hey, who
wouldn't want a 30 or 40 or50,000 square foot ceiling to
(10:21):
spray out and block walls?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Started getting into that work, uh ceiling to spray
out and block walls startedgetting into that work.
So over the last 25 years whatmarketing uh has worked to get
ahold of those decision makersand in the commercial space to
get those commercial jobs?
I'm sure it's kind of different25 years ago to now.
How has that changed over thelast couple of decades?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
changed over the last couple decades Immensely.
So back then it was more ofknowing general contractors,
knowing building owners,knocking on building owner doors
, being part of organizations, alot of organizations, a lot of
trade shows, which is great.
You still use those things now.
But in today's market, intoday's world, today's
(11:08):
technology, you know there's somany other routes to.
You know, get to that avatarclient of the building owner,
the building manager, thebuilding maintenance manager,
stay in front of them and, youknow, get leads on a constant
basis.
And that's things that we'vedesigned in our marketing
strategy and our marketingblueprint and our framework to
(11:29):
be able to stay in front of themon a regular basis.
And once we get in front ofthem and once we get that job
and we do a super job, you knowwe made it a point to hey take
before and after pictures everytime.
Do before and after videosevery time.
Get that you know referenceletter every time.
Do before and after videosevery time.
Get that you know referenceletter every time.
You know sometimes people arehesitant to do so but you ask
(11:51):
and you know you try to do whatyou can to do that, to get that
letter as a validation for thenext building or you know the
next project you're going to bidon, but also talking to that
person and other people and youknow getting into their network.
And next thing you know you'regoing to bid on, but also
talking to that person.
They know other people and youknow getting into their network.
And next thing you know you'regetting a referral from them.
You're getting another referral.
Next thing, you know, in acommercial space, you know we
(12:14):
have 11,000 people on ourdatabase that are individuals
that we call on.
And you know.
Now what you're doing is you'resaying, hey, who's my eight in
my A-list, my B-list, my C-list?
And then you know let's spend.
You know there's a rule 80, 20rule, right?
You know you get 80% of yourbusiness from 20% of the people
(12:38):
you're going after and then youget 20% of your business from.
You know you get 80,.
You get 20% of your businessfrom.
You know you get 20% of thebusiness from the other 80% that
you're going after.
So it means concentrate onwhat's working, great, and
that's what we do.
And you know, at the end of theday, I can't express how
(12:59):
important it is to reallyexemplify and show people trust,
communication, qualityworkmanship, because those are
the things that people remember.
And then what happens is theybecome a salesperson, a
mouthpiece, a advocator for yourservices, and really that's
(13:22):
what we've done throughout theyears.
But I will say this I don'tcare how much business anyone's
listening that is listening has.
Henry Ford has a statement.
He said never stop advertising.
Stopping advertising is likeasking you know a clock to stop
and I truly believe that evenwhen you're loaded with business
(13:45):
, you could turn down the phonea little bit If you do Facebook
or Google or you know if, uh, ifyou Facebook or Google or you
know if you're doing, you knowoutbound calling, if you have
virtual assistants that aredoing outbound calling, or if
you know you have, if you wantto slow down the leads a little
bit, but don't ever stop.
Don't ever stop.
You always want to be seen outthere, known out there, and you
(14:07):
want to create an image ofprofessionalism, trust and
deliver every single time.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
So it sounds like for marketing to commercial, even
though technology has changed alot.
I mean, it sounds like you'redoing a lot of the things that
you're doing back in the day.
It's, you know, talking topeople, networking, building
trust, getting testimonials, notthat stuff is pretty much the
same and it sounds like that'skind of the core of what you
need to do for getting intocommercial space.
(14:35):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
That is correct.
But then nowadays, you know youhave websites, for example.
Back then there was websitestoo, but not to the level
they're at now.
So SEO is very important.
You know a lot of people don't,you know, maybe put so much
time into SEO because it's alonger play and they want
instant gratification throughFacebook leads or Google leads
(14:58):
or Google LSA leads or you know,whatever it may be, but you
know SEO ads on Facebook, ads onGoogle.
You know taking care of yourGMB, making sure that you're
optimizing your Google businessprofile, outbound calling, email
(15:20):
campaigns, video marketingcampaigns there's so much of
that stuff that you could do.
And then there's special toolsand systems out there that can
get you the right data to targetyour avatar client in the
commercial space.
And then what do those clientswant to see?
What do those customers want tosee?
They want to see a customerthat's capable and you got to
(15:43):
validate yourself.
So they want to see someonethat has the right insurance,
workers compensation.
They want to see someone thathas done work for many
facilities or customers similarto them.
So you know that's done in.
You know proof of conceptthrough reference letters, you
know through pictures, throughvideos and, most important.
When they talk to you, they'regoing to know if you know what
(16:06):
you're talking about.
They're going to know if youknow how to.
You know paint a ceiling thatyou know is really dirty, has,
you know, is contaminated, hasto be cleaned prior to painting,
has a lot of peeling, so it hasto be blown down or sandblasted
and, you know, primed with theright primer, painted with the
(16:28):
right top coats.
So when you do get thatopportunity from that avatar
client that you're going afterin the commercial space or the
industrial space, it comes downto the person talking to them
and letting them know that theyknow how to do it.
They know how to, let's say,it's part of a facility.
They know how to tarp off andcontain the section that they're
(16:52):
working in so the rest of thefactory or warehouse or
industrial facility couldcontinue work.
And that's what they want.
They want to have someone thatunderstands the process and the
system to use, the rightequipment to use and the right
products to use.
Even though I'm talking a lotabout industrial and commercial,
you know our business does aton of residential.
(17:15):
So it was just, you know, likeback then.
You know we said let's do asmuch residential as possible.
It's wonderful for cash flow.
You know you get down payments,you get paid right when you're
done, and the commercialindustrial space was something
that took us to the next level,so it was something that was
able to scale us up higher andwe still utilize that.
(17:37):
You know that philosophy andyou know, with commercial
industrial, people sometimesmight say, oh man, we don't get
paid for 90 days or whatever.
No, you can talk to them, youcan get a down payment, you can
get draws all days or whatever.
No, you can talk to them, youcan get a down payment, you can
get draws all that good stuff.
Everything is open fordiscussion when you validate
yourself as a professional andsomeone that the customer wants
(18:00):
to work with.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Excellent.
Yeah, that's a common thing.
So a lot of folks inresidential they're used to
having great cashflow Cause,like you said, you know you can
get 50% deposit down and thenyou know a week later get the
other 50% and so you're not.
You don't really even need thatmuch data, if any at all.
Whereas commercial those typesof situations sometimes it will.
(18:28):
You know you'll have net 30,net 60, net 90 turns plus.
You got retainage in some somecases.
Right, could you talk about how?
How do you manage?
Because you do mostlycommercial, right, you do like
70 commercial and like 30residential.
Is that right?
Exactly exactly.
So how do you manage cash flowon the commercial side to ensure
(18:51):
that you're going and youmentioned a couple of things off
the bat is negotiating withyour customer, but could you
talk a little bit more aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Well, yeah, absolutely, daniel.
It's a great question.
Customer could get scared andyou know, just say that.
You know they can't handle the.
You know the burden ofmaterials and labor, the
financial burden.
So you got to be careful.
Don't negotiate too much.
(19:21):
You know it might be aconversation, but you know your
question is you know how do youhandle it?
How do you do jobs that are you, that are uh, you know, 30,000,
50,000, a hundred thousand?
Um.
You know I'm working on aproject right now that uh is
going to be over $2 million.
Um, so you know the way you doit is.
(19:42):
First of all, hopefully, you'remaking a ton of money throughout
the years and you build up tothat.
If you're new in the businessand you're getting into that,
it's just not something to getinto when you first start.
I would not suggest that forsomeone.
If I was coaching thatindividual, I would build you up
to that point for you to beable to handle those projects.
And then I would also take thatindividual and I would build
(20:05):
them up through you, daniel, ontheir books to be able to go to
a factoring company and to getassistance from a factoring
company to be able to dolarge-scale projects like that.
And for those who don't knowwhat a factoring company is, a
factoring company basically is acompany that will pay you prior
(20:26):
to getting paid from thecustomer.
So they're your intermediarylender, they're your short-term
lender, your 30, 60, 90-daylender, and they're going to
charge you points every singlemonth.
But it's worth it and at theend of the day, it's a small fee
to pay when you're doing a jobwhere you're going to make
(20:47):
$30,000 or $40,000 in a week oryou know, in some cases more,
some cases less.
So a factoring company is asolution for people that do want
to get into the commercialindustrial space, but they don't
have the money to do so rightnow.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, so they're.
Basically you show them youraccounts receivable and they
basically buy your accountsreceivable from you, and so it's
you get your money quicker andat a cost of interest, basically
.
So it sounds like.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Daniel, and that's where you come in, because
someone like you that has, youknow an amazing process to keep
the books clean, the P&L clean,and show exactly where you're at
to that date.
It makes it so easy to takeyour financials and to show it
to that company.
So I'm sure you know, forexample with me, I tell you hey,
(21:47):
daniel, you know what here's.
You know I introduced you guyson an email.
You send them the information.
It's clicks of buttons.
But not everyone always hasthat and sometimes their books
are so out of shape where you'renot going to get factoring,
you're not going to be able toget that line of credit from the
bank.
So not saying it just becauseyou're on here, daniel, but,
guys, books are so important tokeep your QuickBooks properly,
(22:09):
in order to keep your financialsin order.
It's so important for whetheryou want factoring or whether
you want to get that credit cardor that line of credit.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
And so would you say line of credit or factoring, is
that pretty much required goinginto commercial if you're
working with larger jobs?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Unless you have a couple million dollars saved up,
or a million dollars saved upor whatever that job amount is.
Yeah, you're not going to beable to do it without it, and
that's why sometimes everyoneknows that's listening to this
call all the painters out therethat they're subcontractors.
Well, that's why peoplesometimes never become a main
(22:52):
contractor and they're always asubcontractor is because they
don't know how to manage theirmoney.
They don't know how to managetheir books, they don't know how
to create a great resumeprofile.
You know reputation, you know,and they're always going to be a
subcontractor.
(23:12):
So they're always going to beworking for you or others or
myself, and you know that'sholding themselves back when
it's almost an easy fix if yousurround yourself with the right
people because you want to havea brand.
You know I have a brand outthere.
Here's my brand.
So everywhere I go if I go to afactory, if I go to talk to
(23:36):
construction companies, if I goto talk to property managers we
get ITBs, invitations to bidsall day from so many different
companies.
We have a brand.
So the subcontractor that neverhas a brand never even gets the
point of being able to.
They hold themselves backbecause they don't surround
(23:58):
themselves with the Daniels,they don't have that right
person that could you know,that's been there, done that
that could help guide them tothat point.
And what is the value of that?
It's priceless because you knowthey might spend X dollars, and
what if they're making four orfive times whatever they're
paying for you know anaccounting service or a coaching
(24:19):
service, and they make it forthe rest of their life.
What's the value of that?
What's?
Speaker 1 (24:24):
the value on that.
Yeah, so it sounds like bigthing to.
Before you own a commercial,make sure you have cash lined up
, whether it's yours or someoneelse's, and then make sure you
have good books, especially inorder.
Actually probably shouldreverse that Make sure you have
good books so that you can getsome financing from a, from a
lender or something, before youget into commercial.
(24:46):
Now, from a marketingperspective, if you, if somebody
came to you that's doingresidential repaint maybe
they're doing one to 2 millionin revenue as residential and
they feel like they want to getinto commercial from a marketing
perspective, whatrecommendations would you make
(25:09):
to them on how to get into that?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Well, first of all, you would have to tweak your
marketing strategy a little bit.
Marketing strategy a little bit.
And, you know, let you know onyour website first and foremost,
and, you know, let people knowthat you do residential,
commercial industrial.
You would want to maybe startchanging your keywords on your
(25:32):
Google advertising.
Facebook is not a place foranyone to market for commercial
industrial.
Sure, you might get that.
You know 95% of it.
96% of it to me is like, youknow, residential, which is
great, but if you're going aftercommercial, it's got to be, you
know, google ads.
That's great.
(25:52):
Inbound, high intent, leads forwork that commercial industrial
people want to get done.
And I would suggest commercialprior to industrial.
If you're taking the steps upfrom residential, I'd go
commercial, then I would goindustrial, then I would also do
a lot of outbound stuff.
You know, start gettinginvolved in a lot of
organizations where you cannetwork with a lot of commercial
(26:16):
people.
And you know, I'm going toreally, really emphasize that
commercial is important to getinto first, prior to industrial,
because it's like a steppingstone.
Industrial is like, really, youknow, tough and really you know
equipment, intense, which youcan rent and you know, but it's
a ton of money.
You know your margins arebigger.
(26:37):
You know some people in thepainting industry shoot for 40,
45, 50 percent margins ifthey're doing residential and
they don't think that there'sanything more than that.
Well, you could possibly make60 percent when you're doing
direct to industrial work 65percent because it's harder work
and the margins are larger andthere's less competition in that
(26:58):
space.
So commercial is a steppingstone to get in there.
I would also recommend lowerprices.
Don't worry about how muchyou're going to make in the
beginning.
Build your resume, build yourtrack record and then your
prices can start going up.
When you prove that you arewonderful in that space, you're
trusted in that space, yourquality of work is great.
(27:21):
You build that rapport withpeople that know that your
service is excellent, yourcommunication is excellent and
you start getting that inwriting and then you start using
that and you know, maybe take asalesperson of yours and say,
hey, listen, I want to dedicateyou towards.
You know commercial, sales andindustrial and you know you
(27:43):
dedicate that salespersontowards it.
Have them have a ton of inboundleads coming in, but also have
them create a ton of outboundleads too, which they're calling
on, and that's a great way toget started in the commercial
slash industrial space in thecommercial slash industrial
space.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Okay, so it sounds like first of all you tweak your
marketing copy on your websiteand on your Google ad keywords
so that you're more cateredtowards commercial folks and
then also do outbound withnetworking in those groups where
those commercial owners are yes, and phone calls, in-person
(28:26):
meetings.
And then you mentioned alsowhen you are first getting
started in that space, maybehaving a little bit lower prices
, to build trust and earn thatreputation so that you can
further get you know, referralsand network further into it and
then start raising your pricesback up.
(28:46):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
A hundred percent and I want to add to that.
You know there's only so muchwe can we can talk about in a
matter of 30 or 40 minutes.
But you also want to look atyou know some people you know
have some certain accreditationsthey could get.
You know some companies arewoman business owned.
You know that's a huge benefitso you may be able to, you know,
(29:10):
stay or federal work that way.
You know some companies areminority business owned, so you
can use that to your advantage.
Some companies are disabledveteran business owned, so you
can use that to your advantage.
Some companies are disabledveteran business owned.
So when I tell you for 26 yearseating, breathing, sleeping this
you know all the strategies andall the routes to get into
(29:31):
business or get different leadscoming in.
And you know build the businessup that's what I've done.
So you know each individual upthat that's what I've done.
So you know each individual,each company has different
avenues and you know that theycould utilize to.
You know to have a advantageand if you do have those
advantages, those are thingsthat you want to make sure that
(29:54):
is exemplified on your marketingmaterial when you talk to
people, on your letterhead, onon your bids, all that good
stuff.
So those are also things thatcould help you get into
commercial industrial where it'snot so important to residential
.
You know if someone's a womanbusiness owned or not, you know
(30:14):
a residential customer is goingto take.
You know normally number onewho they feel is most qualified
and number two then they'regoing to look at the price.
You know that's how I think itgoes.
It's quality than price.
So for the commercialindustrial space, any advantage
you could have, utilize it andif you're not, if you don't have
(30:37):
those accreditations, sometimesyou could do.
You know SPV, special purposeventures, where you could
partner up in a joint ventureand a side business and you know
run that business and runbusiness through that company
and be able to give, you knowthe general contractor or the
(30:59):
facility the necessaryparticipation they need from a
woman business owned or acompany or minority or a
disabled, veteran company.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Nice.
One of the things you mentionedwas for commercial.
You actually see higher grossprofit margins than you do on
residential.
That you're getting like 60% 70higher gross profit margins
than you do on residential.
That you're getting like 60%70% gross profit margins on
commercial, which is amazing.
Could you go talk a little bitmore about that?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Well, I would say, you know, I would say that those
kinds of margins are more onindustrial and those kinds of
margins are more on projectsthat are that are that are that
are more difficult, uh, so thereyou know, the high, the, the
the higher level of difficultyon a project uh is the more more
(31:54):
the project pays.
And that's where you could makemore money.
Um, when you have a solutionfor a customer on a way to get
something done, you know priceis not as important as much
anymore in the industrial space,industrial end, and I look at
(32:18):
the way to win business, evenjust a sales strategy in general
.
If you could provide someone asolution to a problem or if you
can prove to someone that you'rethe most qualified people do
business with, who they know,like and trust, and if you could
accomplish that in a matter of10 to 30 minutes when you have
(32:41):
time, you know, when you're infront of that residential or
commercial customer, you'regoing to do a lot of business
and that's what I specialize in.
Over the years, man, you got tounderstand that every customer
is different, every customer.
You know some customers arelooking to talk about sports,
you know half the time whenyou're there or other things.
(33:03):
You have to learn that one ofthe biggest attributes in sales
I would say that a greatsalesperson has is the ability
to listen and the ability topaint the picture to the
customer of what they're goingto be providing to them and then
actually provide it to them.
And that's where you get highermargins in any space.
(33:26):
But to you know, go above that.
50% is more in the industrialspace, got it.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Okay, awesome.
Well, I feel like we can keepgoing, but I want to be
respectful of your time.
Mike, I really appreciate it.
Do you have any asks of theaudience or anywhere you'd like
to point them to?
Speaker 2 (33:46):
if they want to get a hold of you, I'll let you take
it away Talking about businessin general, talking about the
painting business, talking aboutgrowth, talking about sales,
talking about marketing.
It's really not a job to me.
I love it, I'm passionate aboutit, it's just what I love to do
(34:10):
.
So I get together and I havefree webinars all the time and
get on a webinar and chat aboutdifferent strategies, different
challenges individuals arefacing, or different obstacles
or ceilings that they've hit.
(34:31):
They can't overcome thatceiling.
So if you want to ever email me, you can email me at
risenextlevel so it's mike atris next level dot com and email
me and you know I could get youon our uh uh.
Next, you know webinar and youknow I try to do it on a regular
basis where I get a bunch ofbusiness owners on there
(34:54):
aspiring business owners,struggling business owners,
thriving business owners and wehave great conversations and
that's where you know, we see,you know if someone you know
needs help and what kind ofperson they are.
Because I love working withindividuals that want it more
than I want it for them.
Because if I'm working withsomeone, you know I want them to
(35:18):
say that it's the bestinvestment they've ever made in
life and that's where I think Iget a little bit of it from
basketball because I'm verypassionate.
And I tell them hey, listen, ifyou're not okay with someone
being honest with you, I'm notthe right you know coach for you
.
If you're not okay with someone, you know, maybe being a little
(35:38):
rough on you in a respectfulway, I'm not the right coach for
you.
But if you want to maximizeyour individual self and not,
you know, say I want to be whatthat guy is or do what that guy
does, or do what that companydoes, I want to look at myself
and maximize myself.
You know that's what I do,that's what I specialize in and
(36:00):
that's what I do, that's what Ispecialize in and that's what I
love.
And I get a kick out of peopletelling me Mike, I never
imagined I can, I can get tothis point.
And I tell them you're not evenfully where you could be yet.
That's a great thing about it.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Awesome.
Well, I really appreciate yourtime, mike, and for the
listeners, definitely check out.
Really appreciate your time,mike, and for the listeners,
definitely check outrisenextlevelcom.
Or send Mike an email, mike atrisenextlevelcom to get linked
in with those webinars that he'srunning.
I think it's a greatopportunity to learn from
someone who's been in thebusiness for decades and has
(36:35):
grown a massive paintingbusiness up in Michigan.
So definitely take advantage ofthat opportunity and with that,
we will see you all next week.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Daniel, thank you so much, Audience.
Hopefully I gave you a littlebit of something that can help
out your business.
It would be an honor to helpyou out in any way possible.
Hopefully we get you on somewebinars and I'd love to assist
in your growth.
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running and scaling a
professional painting business,from the brushes and ladders to
the spreadsheets and balancesheets.
We've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice specifically
and tax information.
Nothing you hear on thispodcast should be considered as
financial advice specificallyfor you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
before making any significantfinancial decision.
Welcome to the ProfitablePainter podcast, the show where
(00:45):
painting contractors learn howto boost profits, cut taxes and
build a business that works forthem.
I'm your host, daniel Honan,cpa, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable, one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited.
Today I'm here with Mike fromRise Next Level.
(01:06):
He's a coach for marketing andsales strategies.
He has a large, very largebusiness out of Michigan, a
painting business out ofMichigan.
He employs over 70 painters andhe has several other
service-based businesses as well.
I'm super excited to have himon the podcast.
Welcome to the podcast, mike.
How's it going?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Daniel, first of all, thank you so much for having me
on the podcast.
I'm super excited.
This is an honor to be on hereand to discuss with you the
painting business and everythingfrom soup to nuts, from
marketing to closing out thebooks at the end of the year.
Things are going great and anice, beautiful day out there
(01:50):
and I'm happy to be here withyou talking about business.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
That's awesome.
Yeah, I'm excited to get intoit.
If you could just give folkslisteners an idea of where
you're coming from, when did youget started in the painting
industry and what have been somemajor milestones along the way.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, so I got started in 1999 in the painting
industry.
You know the first year wasbasically a year.
I got started with a friend ofmine that I met through
basketball and I knew nothingabout the painting industry and
was kind of learning the ropesfor the first year or two.
And you know, once I learnedthe ropes and once you're in the
(02:31):
, you know swimming, you startlearning things really quick and
I had a deep desire to succeed.
I didn't succeed in basketball,michael Jordan didn't succeed
in basketball, no point intending.
But you know, when thathappened I did have a deep
desire to succeed in business.
You know, help my family out.
(02:51):
And you know, live out goalsthat I had in life at that time
which have changed since then.
But you know, throughout theyears, you know, major
milestones in business was, youknow, getting my first office.
You know my first office.
You know I think we picked upright in about 2002.
And you know we looked for thecheapest rental space and you
(03:16):
know we only did it because weneeded it at that time where
people were coming and pickingup their checks and you know we
started to want to have aphysical address to look, you
know.
You know, more professional tothe customer and all that good
stuff.
And you know, you know that thatwas a major milestone to me,
getting that office.
I think when you do that youkind of you know you felt like,
(03:38):
wow, ok, I'm going to an office,you know, at 730, seven in the
morning every day, you know at7.30, 7 in the morning every day
.
So that kind of you knowsparked some things up.
And then, you know, the nextmajor milestone was I hired a
blueprint estimator because atthe time, you know, blueprint
estimating was and still is huge.
So that was a big milestone.
(04:00):
You know, hiring that you know,first, you know, blueprint
(04:30):
estimator, that firstsalesperson.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So those are big ones for me, because you're spending
money and at that time you'retrying to save up as much money
as possible and, you know, gotowards building up, you know
into investing into marketingand a staff that could really
perform and create a name foryourself.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
That's awesome.
So 2002, you get your firstoffice.
When did you hire that firstsalesperson, the blueprint
estimator?
So that was in 2002.
It was separately a salespersonthat I basically took
everything that I had learned in2000 and 2001.
Because 1999 was a year of liketrial and error, and you know
(05:02):
things that worked, that didn'twork and all that good stuff.
And I found that in the firstthree years I learned so much
about where to spend my time,where not to spend my time.
And I was fortunate enough toknow a gentleman that played on
my basketball team in college.
I played college basketball andhe at the time had graduated
and was looking for a job.
So he was like a sponge andwanted to learn.
(05:24):
And you know, every day I wouldgive him different tasks and
you know he started.
You know I would sit down withhim for hours, train him and
sometimes I would give from himMike, you know this company is
not going to work with us.
They said they're already setwith painters.
Now tell him, hey, how aboutthis?
I guarantee you we will workwith this company.
(05:46):
So and it was funny, I willcall that.
You know, the company and myapproach would be a little bit
different.
You know they would tell me, oh, we already got painters and
say, oh, no problem, no, Irespect that.
Obviously you guys are a greatcompany, already in business and
doing great work.
Is there any way?
I could just drop off my infoand at a time, you know, emails
weren't being used so much andwhatnot.
(06:07):
Can I drop off my info?
And, you know, guys, just keepit on hand in case you ever do
need, you know, a hand with apainting job or a small painting
job that your other guys can'tget into.
And I started using, I startedshowing them that obstacles are
disillusions, you know, and ifyou think that it's an obstacle
(06:28):
to get into that company, youbeat yourself.
Don't do that.
Figure out ways.
You know, create this list ofall the customers we are going
after and the ones that are hardto get into are harder to get
into, to get into or harder toget into.
We will find a way to get inwith them and start working with
(06:49):
them through being persistent,through being honest, through
showing that we want their work,through showing the quality of
work we do and then also, youknow, telling them listen, you
know.
You know how can we get achance.
You know, can I even paint, youknow, some walls in your office
for free.
So you know it was a lot ofdifferent techniques that I
taught him and you know hestarted thriving.
(07:12):
He got up to the point when hewas selling about 1.2, 1.3
million dollars for me and thatwas a big milestone.
And then that blueprint reader.
He also helped take us to thenext level because now we
weren't telling constructioncompanies and general
contractors that we can't workwith them anymore because or we
can't do their blueprint reading.
(07:33):
So we were able to take thoseon.
So we're doing residential work, repaints, all that good stuff.
But I also want to go after thebigger jobs, all that good
stuff, but I also want to goafter the bigger jobs.
So that was a big milestone thatI got through and you know
learned a lot from and you knowfeel that that's something that
is a obstacle for a lot ofpainters in the industry now.
(07:58):
But you know it's easily taughton how to get through that.
And if they say, well, I can'thire a blueprint reader now for
80, 90, a hundred thousanddollars, there's multiple routes
to get those blueprint,blueprint read, you know, and
you know put on a form that isvery respectable, to bid for
(08:21):
general contractors now and Ifind that that a lot of people
get held up with that but it'snot a problem anymore with
having a world climate and beingable to utilize technology.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, so back in 2002 , when you first got this
blueprint estimator, you werealready going after commercial.
Or were you doing mostlyresidential and you're just
trying to get into commercial atthat point, or?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, we were doing repaints and you know we said,
okay, we want to keep doingrepaints.
And at that time you had noFacebook.
Facebook wasn't even inventedyet.
You know, it was 2002, 2001,2000.
So we wanted to look at how canwe scale, how can we get more?
You know, you do the flyer thing, you knock on doors, you go
(09:11):
after your inner circle, thenetwork that you have, you go
after property managementcompanies, use the yellow pages
at that time, use flyers at thattime, use, you know, coupon
companies at that time.
So we were doing all thoseoptions and we were hitting all
those options of bringing inleads.
So we wanted to expand, wewanted to get into commercial
(09:34):
work and that's where we startedeven knocking on doors of
commercial buildings and some ofit worked, some of it didn't,
but I left no stone unturnedback then, just like I do now.
And you know some of it worked,some of it didn't, but I left
no stone unturned back then,just like I do now.
And you know I like to alwaysexplore and you know to me it's
an investment.
You don't always make money onthat investment, but I'm able to
(09:56):
help individuals and otherpainters and other companies,
you know, see where they want toget as far as their goals and
tell them what works and whatdoesn't work, so they get there
faster.
So you know, see where theywant to get as far as our goals
and tell them what works andwhat doesn't work, so they get
there faster.
So you know, that's some of thethings that we did back then.
And then we got into blueprintreading because, hey, who
wouldn't want a 30 or 40 or50,000 square foot ceiling to
(10:21):
spray out and block walls?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Started getting into that work, uh ceiling to spray
out and block walls startedgetting into that work.
So over the last 25 years whatmarketing uh has worked to get
ahold of those decision makersand in the commercial space to
get those commercial jobs?
I'm sure it's kind of different25 years ago to now.
How has that changed over thelast couple of decades?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
changed over the last couple decades Immensely.
So back then it was more ofknowing general contractors,
knowing building owners,knocking on building owner doors
, being part of organizations, alot of organizations, a lot of
trade shows, which is great.
You still use those things now.
But in today's market, intoday's world, today's
(11:08):
technology, you know there's somany other routes to.
You know, get to that avatarclient of the building owner,
the building manager, thebuilding maintenance manager,
stay in front of them and, youknow, get leads on a constant
basis.
And that's things that we'vedesigned in our marketing
strategy and our marketingblueprint and our framework to
(11:29):
be able to stay in front of themon a regular basis.
And once we get in front ofthem and once we get that job
and we do a super job, you knowwe made it a point to hey take
before and after pictures everytime.
Do before and after videosevery time.
Get that you know referenceletter every time.
Do before and after videosevery time.
Get that you know referenceletter every time.
You know sometimes people arehesitant to do so but you ask
(11:51):
and you know you try to do whatyou can to do that, to get that
letter as a validation for thenext building or you know the
next project you're going to bidon, but also talking to that
person and other people and youknow getting into their network.
And next thing you know you'regoing to bid on, but also
talking to that person.
They know other people and youknow getting into their network.
And next thing you know you'regetting a referral from them.
You're getting another referral.
Next thing, you know, in acommercial space, you know we
(12:14):
have 11,000 people on ourdatabase that are individuals
that we call on.
And you know.
Now what you're doing is you'resaying, hey, who's my eight in
my A-list, my B-list, my C-list?
And then you know let's spend.
You know there's a rule 80, 20rule, right?
You know you get 80% of yourbusiness from 20% of the people
(12:38):
you're going after and then youget 20% of your business from.
You know you get 80,.
You get 20% of your businessfrom.
You know you get 20% of thebusiness from the other 80% that
you're going after.
So it means concentrate onwhat's working, great, and
that's what we do.
And you know, at the end of theday, I can't express how
(12:59):
important it is to reallyexemplify and show people trust,
communication, qualityworkmanship, because those are
the things that people remember.
And then what happens is theybecome a salesperson, a
mouthpiece, a advocator for yourservices, and really that's
(13:22):
what we've done throughout theyears.
But I will say this I don'tcare how much business anyone's
listening that is listening has.
Henry Ford has a statement.
He said never stop advertising.
Stopping advertising is likeasking you know a clock to stop
and I truly believe that evenwhen you're loaded with business
(13:45):
, you could turn down the phonea little bit If you do Facebook
or Google or you know if, uh, ifyou Facebook or Google or you
know if you're doing, you knowoutbound calling, if you have
virtual assistants that aredoing outbound calling, or if
you know you have, if you wantto slow down the leads a little
bit, but don't ever stop.
Don't ever stop.
You always want to be seen outthere, known out there, and you
(14:07):
want to create an image ofprofessionalism, trust and
deliver every single time.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
So it sounds like for marketing to commercial, even
though technology has changed alot.
I mean, it sounds like you'redoing a lot of the things that
you're doing back in the day.
It's, you know, talking topeople, networking, building
trust, getting testimonials, notthat stuff is pretty much the
same and it sounds like that'skind of the core of what you
need to do for getting intocommercial space.
(14:35):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
That is correct.
But then nowadays, you know youhave websites, for example.
Back then there was websitestoo, but not to the level
they're at now.
So SEO is very important.
You know a lot of people don't,you know, maybe put so much
time into SEO because it's alonger play and they want
instant gratification throughFacebook leads or Google leads
(14:58):
or Google LSA leads or you know,whatever it may be, but you
know SEO ads on Facebook, ads onGoogle.
You know taking care of yourGMB, making sure that you're
optimizing your Google businessprofile, outbound calling, email
(15:20):
campaigns, video marketingcampaigns there's so much of
that stuff that you could do.
And then there's special toolsand systems out there that can
get you the right data to targetyour avatar client in the
commercial space.
And then what do those clientswant to see?
What do those customers want tosee?
They want to see a customerthat's capable and you got to
(15:43):
validate yourself.
So they want to see someonethat has the right insurance,
workers compensation.
They want to see someone thathas done work for many
facilities or customers similarto them.
So you know that's done in.
You know proof of conceptthrough reference letters, you
know through pictures, throughvideos and, most important.
When they talk to you, they'regoing to know if you know what
(16:06):
you're talking about.
They're going to know if youknow how to.
You know paint a ceiling thatyou know is really dirty, has,
you know, is contaminated, hasto be cleaned prior to painting,
has a lot of peeling, so it hasto be blown down or sandblasted
and, you know, primed with theright primer, painted with the
(16:28):
right top coats.
So when you do get thatopportunity from that avatar
client that you're going afterin the commercial space or the
industrial space, it comes downto the person talking to them
and letting them know that theyknow how to do it.
They know how to, let's say,it's part of a facility.
They know how to tarp off andcontain the section that they're
(16:52):
working in so the rest of thefactory or warehouse or
industrial facility couldcontinue work.
And that's what they want.
They want to have someone thatunderstands the process and the
system to use, the rightequipment to use and the right
products to use.
Even though I'm talking a lotabout industrial and commercial,
you know our business does aton of residential.
(17:15):
So it was just, you know, likeback then.
You know we said let's do asmuch residential as possible.
It's wonderful for cash flow.
You know you get down payments,you get paid right when you're
done, and the commercialindustrial space was something
that took us to the next level,so it was something that was
able to scale us up higher andwe still utilize that.
(17:37):
You know that philosophy andyou know, with commercial
industrial, people sometimesmight say, oh man, we don't get
paid for 90 days or whatever.
No, you can talk to them, youcan get a down payment, you can
get draws all days or whatever.
No, you can talk to them, youcan get a down payment, you can
get draws all that good stuff.
Everything is open fordiscussion when you validate
yourself as a professional andsomeone that the customer wants
(18:00):
to work with.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Excellent.
Yeah, that's a common thing.
So a lot of folks inresidential they're used to
having great cashflow Cause,like you said, you know you can
get 50% deposit down and thenyou know a week later get the
other 50% and so you're not.
You don't really even need thatmuch data, if any at all.
Whereas commercial those typesof situations sometimes it will.
(18:28):
You know you'll have net 30,net 60, net 90 turns plus.
You got retainage in some somecases.
Right, could you talk about how?
How do you manage?
Because you do mostlycommercial, right, you do like
70 commercial and like 30residential.
Is that right?
Exactly exactly.
So how do you manage cash flowon the commercial side to ensure
(18:51):
that you're going and youmentioned a couple of things off
the bat is negotiating withyour customer, but could you
talk a little bit more aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Well, yeah, absolutely, daniel.
It's a great question.
Customer could get scared andyou know, just say that.
You know they can't handle the.
You know the burden ofmaterials and labor, the
financial burden.
So you got to be careful.
Don't negotiate too much.
(19:21):
You know it might be aconversation, but you know your
question is you know how do youhandle it?
How do you do jobs that are you, that are uh, you know, 30,000,
50,000, a hundred thousand?
Um.
You know I'm working on aproject right now that uh is
going to be over $2 million.
Um, so you know the way you doit is.
(19:42):
First of all, hopefully, you'remaking a ton of money throughout
the years and you build up tothat.
If you're new in the businessand you're getting into that,
it's just not something to getinto when you first start.
I would not suggest that forsomeone.
If I was coaching thatindividual, I would build you up
to that point for you to beable to handle those projects.
And then I would also take thatindividual and I would build
(20:05):
them up through you, daniel, ontheir books to be able to go to
a factoring company and to getassistance from a factoring
company to be able to dolarge-scale projects like that.
And for those who don't knowwhat a factoring company is, a
factoring company basically is acompany that will pay you prior
(20:26):
to getting paid from thecustomer.
So they're your intermediarylender, they're your short-term
lender, your 30, 60, 90-daylender, and they're going to
charge you points every singlemonth.
But it's worth it and at theend of the day, it's a small fee
to pay when you're doing a jobwhere you're going to make
(20:47):
$30,000 or $40,000 in a week oryou know, in some cases more,
some cases less.
So a factoring company is asolution for people that do want
to get into the commercialindustrial space, but they don't
have the money to do so rightnow.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, so they're.
Basically you show them youraccounts receivable and they
basically buy your accountsreceivable from you, and so it's
you get your money quicker andat a cost of interest, basically
.
So it sounds like.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Daniel, and that's where you come in, because
someone like you that has, youknow an amazing process to keep
the books clean, the P&L clean,and show exactly where you're at
to that date.
It makes it so easy to takeyour financials and to show it
to that company.
So I'm sure you know, forexample with me, I tell you hey,
(21:47):
daniel, you know what here's.
You know I introduced you guyson an email.
You send them the information.
It's clicks of buttons.
But not everyone always hasthat and sometimes their books
are so out of shape where you'renot going to get factoring,
you're not going to be able toget that line of credit from the
bank.
So not saying it just becauseyou're on here, daniel, but,
guys, books are so important tokeep your QuickBooks properly,
(22:09):
in order to keep your financialsin order.
It's so important for whetheryou want factoring or whether
you want to get that credit cardor that line of credit.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
And so would you say line of credit or factoring, is
that pretty much required goinginto commercial if you're
working with larger jobs?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Unless you have a couple million dollars saved up,
or a million dollars saved upor whatever that job amount is.
Yeah, you're not going to beable to do it without it, and
that's why sometimes everyoneknows that's listening to this
call all the painters out therethat they're subcontractors.
Well, that's why peoplesometimes never become a main
(22:52):
contractor and they're always asubcontractor is because they
don't know how to manage theirmoney.
They don't know how to managetheir books, they don't know how
to create a great resumeprofile.
You know reputation, you know,and they're always going to be a
subcontractor.
(23:12):
So they're always going to beworking for you or others or
myself, and you know that'sholding themselves back when
it's almost an easy fix if yousurround yourself with the right
people because you want to havea brand.
You know I have a brand outthere.
Here's my brand.
So everywhere I go if I go to afactory, if I go to talk to
(23:36):
construction companies, if I goto talk to property managers we
get ITBs, invitations to bidsall day from so many different
companies.
We have a brand.
So the subcontractor that neverhas a brand never even gets the
point of being able to.
They hold themselves backbecause they don't surround
(23:58):
themselves with the Daniels,they don't have that right
person that could you know,that's been there, done that
that could help guide them tothat point.
And what is the value of that?
It's priceless because you knowthey might spend X dollars, and
what if they're making four orfive times whatever they're
paying for you know anaccounting service or a coaching
(24:19):
service, and they make it forthe rest of their life.
What's the value of that?
What's?
Speaker 1 (24:24):
the value on that.
Yeah, so it sounds like bigthing to.
Before you own a commercial,make sure you have cash lined up
, whether it's yours or someoneelse's, and then make sure you
have good books, especially inorder.
Actually probably shouldreverse that Make sure you have
good books so that you can getsome financing from a, from a
lender or something, before youget into commercial.
(24:46):
Now, from a marketingperspective, if you, if somebody
came to you that's doingresidential repaint maybe
they're doing one to 2 millionin revenue as residential and
they feel like they want to getinto commercial from a marketing
perspective, whatrecommendations would you make
(25:09):
to them on how to get into that?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Well, first of all, you would have to tweak your
marketing strategy a little bit.
Marketing strategy a little bit.
And, you know, let you know onyour website first and foremost,
and, you know, let people knowthat you do residential,
commercial industrial.
You would want to maybe startchanging your keywords on your
(25:32):
Google advertising.
Facebook is not a place foranyone to market for commercial
industrial.
Sure, you might get that.
You know 95% of it.
96% of it to me is like, youknow, residential, which is
great, but if you're going aftercommercial, it's got to be, you
know, google ads.
That's great.
(25:52):
Inbound, high intent, leads forwork that commercial industrial
people want to get done.
And I would suggest commercialprior to industrial.
If you're taking the steps upfrom residential, I'd go
commercial, then I would goindustrial, then I would also do
a lot of outbound stuff.
You know, start gettinginvolved in a lot of
organizations where you cannetwork with a lot of commercial
(26:16):
people.
And you know, I'm going toreally, really emphasize that
commercial is important to getinto first, prior to industrial,
because it's like a steppingstone.
Industrial is like, really, youknow, tough and really you know
equipment, intense, which youcan rent and you know, but it's
a ton of money.
You know your margins arebigger.
(26:37):
You know some people in thepainting industry shoot for 40,
45, 50 percent margins ifthey're doing residential and
they don't think that there'sanything more than that.
Well, you could possibly make60 percent when you're doing
direct to industrial work 65percent because it's harder work
and the margins are larger andthere's less competition in that
(26:58):
space.
So commercial is a steppingstone to get in there.
I would also recommend lowerprices.
Don't worry about how muchyou're going to make in the
beginning.
Build your resume, build yourtrack record and then your
prices can start going up.
When you prove that you arewonderful in that space, you're
trusted in that space, yourquality of work is great.
(27:21):
You build that rapport withpeople that know that your
service is excellent, yourcommunication is excellent and
you start getting that inwriting and then you start using
that and you know, maybe take asalesperson of yours and say,
hey, listen, I want to dedicateyou towards.
You know commercial, sales andindustrial and you know you
(27:43):
dedicate that salespersontowards it.
Have them have a ton of inboundleads coming in, but also have
them create a ton of outboundleads too, which they're calling
on, and that's a great way toget started in the commercial
slash industrial space in thecommercial slash industrial
space.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Okay, so it sounds like first of all you tweak your
marketing copy on your websiteand on your Google ad keywords
so that you're more cateredtowards commercial folks and
then also do outbound withnetworking in those groups where
those commercial owners are yes, and phone calls, in-person
(28:26):
meetings.
And then you mentioned alsowhen you are first getting
started in that space, maybehaving a little bit lower prices
, to build trust and earn thatreputation so that you can
further get you know, referralsand network further into it and
then start raising your pricesback up.
(28:46):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
A hundred percent and I want to add to that.
You know there's only so muchwe can we can talk about in a
matter of 30 or 40 minutes.
But you also want to look atyou know some people you know
have some certain accreditationsthey could get.
You know some companies arewoman business owned.
You know that's a huge benefitso you may be able to, you know,
(29:10):
stay or federal work that way.
You know some companies areminority business owned, so you
can use that to your advantage.
Some companies are disabledveteran business owned, so you
can use that to your advantage.
Some companies are disabledveteran business owned.
So when I tell you for 26 yearseating, breathing, sleeping this
you know all the strategies andall the routes to get into
(29:31):
business or get different leadscoming in.
And you know build the businessup that's what I've done.
So you know each individual upthat that's what I've done.
So you know each individual,each company has different
avenues and you know that theycould utilize to.
You know to have a advantageand if you do have those
advantages, those are thingsthat you want to make sure that
(29:54):
is exemplified on your marketingmaterial when you talk to
people, on your letterhead, onon your bids, all that good
stuff.
So those are also things thatcould help you get into
commercial industrial where it'snot so important to residential
.
You know if someone's a womanbusiness owned or not, you know
(30:14):
a residential customer is goingto take.
You know normally number onewho they feel is most qualified
and number two then they'regoing to look at the price.
You know that's how I think itgoes.
It's quality than price.
So for the commercialindustrial space, any advantage
you could have, utilize it andif you're not, if you don't have
(30:37):
those accreditations, sometimesyou could do.
You know SPV, special purposeventures, where you could
partner up in a joint ventureand a side business and you know
run that business and runbusiness through that company
and be able to give, you knowthe general contractor or the
(30:59):
facility the necessaryparticipation they need from a
woman business owned or acompany or minority or a
disabled, veteran company.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Nice.
One of the things you mentionedwas for commercial.
You actually see higher grossprofit margins than you do on
residential.
That you're getting like 60% 70higher gross profit margins
than you do on residential.
That you're getting like 60%70% gross profit margins on
commercial, which is amazing.
Could you go talk a little bitmore about that?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Well, I would say, you know, I would say that those
kinds of margins are more onindustrial and those kinds of
margins are more on projectsthat are that are that are that
are more difficult, uh, so thereyou know, the high, the, the
the higher level of difficultyon a project uh is the more more
(31:54):
the project pays.
And that's where you could makemore money.
Um, when you have a solutionfor a customer on a way to get
something done, you know priceis not as important as much
anymore in the industrial space,industrial end, and I look at
(32:18):
the way to win business, evenjust a sales strategy in general
.
If you could provide someone asolution to a problem or if you
can prove to someone that you'rethe most qualified people do
business with, who they know,like and trust, and if you could
accomplish that in a matter of10 to 30 minutes when you have
(32:41):
time, you know, when you're infront of that residential or
commercial customer, you'regoing to do a lot of business
and that's what I specialize in.
Over the years, man, you got tounderstand that every customer
is different, every customer.
You know some customers arelooking to talk about sports,
you know half the time whenyou're there or other things.
(33:03):
You have to learn that one ofthe biggest attributes in sales
I would say that a greatsalesperson has is the ability
to listen and the ability topaint the picture to the
customer of what they're goingto be providing to them and then
actually provide it to them.
And that's where you get highermargins in any space.
(33:26):
But to you know, go above that.
50% is more in the industrialspace, got it.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Okay, awesome.
Well, I feel like we can keepgoing, but I want to be
respectful of your time.
Mike, I really appreciate it.
Do you have any asks of theaudience or anywhere you'd like
to point them to?
Speaker 2 (33:46):
if they want to get a hold of you, I'll let you take
it away Talking about businessin general, talking about the
painting business, talking aboutgrowth, talking about sales,
talking about marketing.
It's really not a job to me.
I love it, I'm passionate aboutit, it's just what I love to do
(34:10):
.
So I get together and I havefree webinars all the time and
get on a webinar and chat aboutdifferent strategies, different
challenges individuals arefacing, or different obstacles
or ceilings that they've hit.
(34:31):
They can't overcome thatceiling.
So if you want to ever email me, you can email me at
risenextlevel so it's mike atris next level dot com and email
me and you know I could get youon our uh uh.
Next, you know webinar and youknow I try to do it on a regular
basis where I get a bunch ofbusiness owners on there
(34:54):
aspiring business owners,struggling business owners,
thriving business owners and wehave great conversations and
that's where you know, we see,you know if someone you know
needs help and what kind ofperson they are.
Because I love working withindividuals that want it more
than I want it for them.
Because if I'm working withsomeone, you know I want them to
(35:18):
say that it's the bestinvestment they've ever made in
life and that's where I think Iget a little bit of it from
basketball because I'm verypassionate.
And I tell them hey, listen, ifyou're not okay with someone
being honest with you, I'm notthe right you know coach for you
.
If you're not okay with someone, you know, maybe being a little
(35:38):
rough on you in a respectfulway, I'm not the right coach for
you.
But if you want to maximizeyour individual self and not,
you know, say I want to be whatthat guy is or do what that guy
does, or do what that companydoes, I want to look at myself
and maximize myself.
You know that's what I do,that's what I specialize in and
(36:00):
that's what I do, that's what Ispecialize in and that's what I
love.
And I get a kick out of peopletelling me Mike, I never
imagined I can, I can get tothis point.
And I tell them you're not evenfully where you could be yet.
That's a great thing about it.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Awesome.
Well, I really appreciate yourtime, mike, and for the
listeners, definitely check out.
Really appreciate your time,mike, and for the listeners,
definitely check outrisenextlevelcom.
Or send Mike an email, mike atrisenextlevelcom to get linked
in with those webinars that he'srunning.
I think it's a greatopportunity to learn from
someone who's been in thebusiness for decades and has
(36:35):
grown a massive paintingbusiness up in Michigan.
So definitely take advantage ofthat opportunity and with that,
we will see you all next week.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Daniel, thank you so much, Audience.
Hopefully I gave you a littlebit of something that can help
out your business.
It would be an honor to helpyou out in any way possible.
Hopefully we get you on somewebinars and I'd love to assist
in your growth.
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