July 18, 2025 • 28 mins
In this value-packed episode, host Daniel Honan sits down with Josh Henry, a cabinet refinishing specialist who scaled his business to $1M+ in revenue with industry-leading 65% profit margins. Discover how niching down and strategic delegation transformed his operation from a one-man show into a powerhouse.
Key Takeaways You’ll Learn:
- Why specializing in one service (like cabinet refinishing) beats being a "jack of all trades", and how it lets you charge premium prices
- The exact profit margins Josh achieves (hint: top 1% of painting contractors) and how he maintains them
- Team-building secrets: Why hiring specialists (not generalists) skyrockets efficiency and quality
- Marketing that actually works: How Josh grew to $1M+ with almost zero advertising (just one powerful strategy)
- When to hire a salesperson and how to structure their role for maximum impact
Josh shares his decade-long journey from starting with tub refinishing to dominating his local market, proving that deep expertise + disciplined systems = unstoppable growth.
Pro Tip: "Task delegation isn’t optional, you can’t scale if you ARE the business. Train your team, trust the process, and focus on what moves the needle."
BONUS: Want to stop overpaying in taxes? Join our free webinar: “Making More Money and Saving on Taxes: Bookkeeping for Painters” happening August 5th. Save your spot here: http://bookkeepingforpainters.com/webinar
On August 5th 2025, I’m hosting a free, live webinar revealing:
✅ How to pay way less in taxes—legally
✅ The simple ratio top painting businesses use to grow profits fast
✅ What the top 20% of painters are doing differently
Go to BookkeepingForPainters.com/Webinar to register now!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, daniel Honan,cpa and former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable, one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited.
Today I'm here with Josh Henryout of South Carolina.
(00:31):
How's it going, josh?
Good, how are you?
I'm doing well, I'm doing well,so I'm really excited to get
into your story today.
Can you give the audience, thelisteners, an idea of how you
got started in the paintingindustry and what has been your
journey along the way?
Some major milestones.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Okay, well, I've been in the industry since I was 18.
Started, found an ad in thepaper when I was living out in
Florida it was actually for atub refinisher, so didn't know
anything about it.
Went, applied, got the job, job, and one thing led to the next,
just started branching out fromthere.
And then I moved to SouthCarolina, tried to find a job.
(01:13):
Nobody would hire me.
So end up starting my owncompany and from there we kind
of just expanded just as moreneeds came up.
We just kept on going with it.
One day somebody asked hey, canyou paint our cabinets?
I was like, well, you know what, why not?
So just pretty much startedgrowing from there.
And then, like I said, onething leads to the next.
(01:34):
We got more into the cabinetside of things and we just kept
on growing and now we're at thepoint now we have nine employees
, a 5,000 square foot warehouse.
We, uh, are probably thelargest cabinet company around
(01:54):
here in this area.
Um, we offer refinishing,refacing, custom cabinets and uh
, yeah, things have just kind oftaken off.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
That's awesome.
So I love this because a lot offolks I speak to like,
especially if they're doingbelow $350,000 a year, they feel
like they have to do everything.
They have to do interior,exterior, cabinets, flooring.
They have to do all the thingsto get more revenue, flooring.
(02:29):
They have to do all the thingsto get more revenue.
And I'm like there's actuallyfolks out there who just do one
or two things really well andthey become known for those
things and they just blow up.
And I feel like you kind of fitthat latter definition, where
you've kind of found a niche andyou've become known for that
niche and you've been reallyable to capitalize on that.
(02:51):
Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Oh yeah, definitely.
I don't want to go out and doanything and everything.
We just found our littlespecialty and we're good at it,
so we stick with it.
I try to teach myself and I'malways learning.
There's always stuff to learnin this industry, so I'm always
trying to stay up to date on thetechnology and all the new
stuff coming out in the industry.
(03:12):
So pretty much we can offer thebest product and best service
possible.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, and how long have you?
I know you started when youwere 18.
How long have you actually beenrunning this business at this
point?
10 years now 10 years and wherehave you gone from?
Obviously you started up 10years ago and, in terms of
revenue, just to get an idea ofhow large an operation you're
running, where's the revenue?
(03:39):
Looking like these last year orso.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Last year we were breaking a million okay, awesome
, so you're just doing cabinet.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
For the most part is it is cabinet refinishing,
refacing.
Um, that's the the core.
Like 80 of your revenue iscoming from that.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Is that fair or yes, about 80% is all cabinets.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Okay and you're doing , you know, a million plus in
that ballpark just doing thatone service, and so that's
awesome.
So you probably have like areally dialed in process, I
would imagine.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
We do.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, could you.
How did you?
What gave you the?
Because I feel like a lot offolks that are, you know they
maybe want to niche, but theyfeel like, but it's hard to give
up that revenue when you know,oh, I want to niche in cabinets
but then someone comes to youlike, hey, can you paint the
(04:40):
exterior of my house?
How do you maintain thatdiscipline?
Like, no, we actually just docabinets and just, you know,
turn down that, that revenue.
That's, you know, easy, causethe person's just asking you,
hey, can you just paint theexterior of my house?
How do you manage that?
Like, what do you?
What's your mindset with that?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Um, I just don't want to mess with it.
Um, we, we've found what welike to do and we're good at it,
so that's why I stick with.
So somebody asked me to painttheir house.
That's, that's not my thing.
Um, I just want the specialtystuff.
So it's just been a happen forme and all my guys that work for
me.
They specialize in one thing.
So I have somebody that all hedoes is spray doors all day in
(05:20):
the shop.
I have somebody that sprayscabinets on site all day, and
then our carpentry team, um, aswell as some insulators, so so
everybody is good at their joband that's kind of what they
stick with.
So I don't want to go and throwcurve balls and be like, hey,
can you go out here and justpaint this room now, because
it's just not what we do.
So we just find our specialtyand we stick with it.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
That's amazing.
So you even have it broken downspecific to the person where
they have a role within thecabinet refinishing refacing
process.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
And so I can't imagine they must be like super
efficient.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
They are.
So these people, they do thisall day, every day, so that is
their one job, that's their task.
They know what to do, the insand outs.
If there's an issue, they knowhow to correct it.
So I mean, they're that's whatthey're good at.
I tried before having peoplethat do a bit of everything in
the process and just turns to bethat not everybody's good at
everything.
So pretty much I'm just findingpeople that are set and they're
(06:20):
skilled in that one area andthat's where they shine.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, that's great, and I guess so now that's how it
runs.
Like you have folks that havetheir own position, they know
their role, they're efficient.
Did you have that vision earlyon, like, how did you get there?
Because I feel like that's yeah, did you have that vision early
on?
Or like and if you didn't, howdid you end up getting getting
(06:48):
this vision of you?
Know, everyone has their ownjob.
We only do cabinet refacing,resurfacing.
How did you get there?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
It took a while.
It took to, took me to reallylet go and trust people to do
things.
So task delegation, that was mybiggest thing.
So, beginning I tried doingeverything myself and because I
was like nobody's gonna careabout this company as much as I
am, so nobody's gonna put in theeffort, they're not gonna go
above and beyond and make surethe customers are happy, like
(07:17):
like an owner will.
So that was my biggest hurdle.
Going through this is actuallyletting go and stepping back and
be like you know I can't scalethis business if I am the
business.
So that was my biggest thing.
And then once I started growingand getting more skilled
employees, that came in prettymuch.
(07:38):
It's a long journey but as soonas you find somebody good, you
just got to take care of themand they'll take care of you.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, and when you started early on, were you also
just focusing on cabinetresurfacing, repainting
exclusively.
When you, when you started aswell or did, was that, did that
evolve where you then niched?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
That evolved too.
So it started out with the tubrefinishing and repairs stuff
like that.
And then I started doing withthe tub refinishing and repairs
stuff like that.
And then, uh, I started doingthis as a part-time job.
So I wasn't just you don't justshow up one day and, okay,
we're slammed now.
So, um, I started easing myselfinto this, doing little side
jobs here and there, and justkind of grew to where I could
quit my day job and do this fulltime.
(08:22):
And then, uh, from there wejust kind of scaled everything
and cabinets came along.
Just probably like a couple ofyears into it Somebody asked me
if we could paint their cabinetsor if I could paint their
cabinets.
Back then it was just me andyou know I knew a lot about
coatings.
I knew the process andapplication, how to do it.
So I was like, you know what,why not Gave it a shot?
(08:43):
It was a recurring customer, sothey kind of knew my work and
everything and did the job.
And you know, looking back onit all these years later, I
realized I could have done waybetter than I did, but took the
jump.
And then after that I just kindof been trying to teach myself
and better myself with all thedifferent, you know, application
(09:04):
methods and the coatings thatare out there.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
And now this, it kind of just took over and now we
just specialize in in all thisso you sound like you were you
started with tub refinishing andthen you you tried out cabinet
refinishing, resurfacing, andthen that that worked well.
Was it because the demand ishigher for that that you decided
to kind of more focus oncabinet refinishing resurfacing,
(09:29):
or was there something elseinvolved?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
It's bigger ticket jobs.
So I was looking at the bigpicture here.
I mean we could refinish, get atub done and make like 800, 900
bucks on it, or we could do akitchen Kitchen.
We're at $5,000 to $10,000.
So just it's bigger work, itfills the schedule.
(09:52):
More I tell we do in a day, uh,cabinets is going to fill the
schedule, keep the guys busy.
And word of mouth it's just abigger like wow factor.
So people see it, they go intotheir other friends next door
neighbor's house oh, yourkitchen looks beautiful.
Who did it?
And then it kind of goes offfrom that.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So now I mean we don't even really advertise,
it's all just straight word ofmouth oh, wow, that's really
good, especially for your level,uh, for revenue a million
dollars in revenue so, and thenyou've only been doing cabinet
resurfacing, repainting, I mean,uh, resurfacing, uh,
refinishing for what?
(10:27):
Seven or eight years at thispoint, yeah, okay, yeah, that's,
that's really good growth forfor a million dollars in revenue
for seven, seven, eight years.
So, and it's all referral andit's because, basically, you're
wowing people and they'rethey're telling their friends
when they come over and see thekitchen and that seems to be
working really well.
So that's awesome.
(10:49):
So, uh, what I guess?
Um, you're.
You mentioned earlier thatyou're pretty much the go-to
person.
There's no one else in yourarea that specializes in
cabinets, and right, is thataccurate?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So we're the only people that specialize in it.
There's other companies outhere that will do it, but our
means of selling this to peopleis hey, we do this all day,
every day, versus somebody thatjust does a kitchen once a month
or once every couple months.
So that's like our biggestselling point there.
I've invested a bunch of moneyback into the company so we have
an actual permanent spray boothum thousands of dollars in
(11:32):
equipment.
Um, we even tint our owncoatings in-house.
So I mean, I've invested a tonof money to show people like,
hey, we're devoted, this is whatwe do and we do it well.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, and because of that, your ability to
communicate that in your salesprocess, have you found that
you're able to charge higherprices than other folks in the
Okay?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
We are one of the most expensive companies out
here, but people will still gowith us.
Um, they're just.
We use it to show people thatwe're selling quality right.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I mean I, you guys are.
Your team is doing cabinetresigning or refinishing,
resurfacing every single day.
Uh, so they're probably I wouldimagine they're the best in the
area.
For sure, that's all you guysdo, and so you're able to charge
more money.
Plus, it sounds like your guysare super efficient, I would
(12:28):
imagine, because they're doingthe same job every single day.
So your margins, I wouldventure to say, are probably
pretty good.
So you're just able to see alot of benefits on the sales
side charge more money, you'remore efficient, so you have
higher gross profit.
(12:48):
Would you mind sharing yourgross profit margins?
Like what do you typically hitand um well, let's see we're
probably grossing.
We probably have like 50 to 75profit off, mostly jobs, wow so
(13:09):
on average you say it soundslike you get like, on average,
60 to 65 gross profit margin ona typical job.
Yeah, yeah, that's, that'samazing.
That is amazing.
And I've I've looked atfinancials for you know hundreds
of painting businesses and thatis in the top 1% for sure In
(13:32):
terms of other paintingbusinesses, even at 1 million
and above.
You know, because, as youusually for for businesses, as
they grow they get a bettersales process, they get better
at their processes, so the grossprofit margin doesn't improve
over time.
And the top 20% they're doing50% plus.
(13:58):
The top 20% of the folks thatI've worked with are doing 50%
risk profit or higher.
The top 60%, 65%, that's toptier.
I don't know the highest riskprofit I know that someone hits
on a regular basis is about 65%.
(14:19):
That's the highest.
I've seen it.
So you're right there with thehighest that I've ever heard of.
So that is amazing.
Congratulations on the successthere.
I can't emphasize that to the,to the listeners.
Um, how amazing that is.
And it's just, it's justamazing what you can do with
(14:40):
when you're niching down andbeing disciplined and then
getting your team also nichedown, like they're niched down
on a particular task that theydo every day, so they're super
efficient.
You're, you're able to chargehigher prices and you're just
killing it, so kudos to you.
That's amazing.
Yeah, absolutely.
(15:01):
And I guess what do you seelike?
What's the next step for you?
Are you trying to grow to thenext level or are you just like
man, this is great.
I'm good with kind of stayingin this revenue range and you
know, because I'm sure you'reyou're making a decent living
and everything like how, how,what's your thinking on the next
(15:21):
steps for your business?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
We keep on growing.
I just hired on another salesrep so we're just trying to
crank stuff out and increase.
I mean we get too busy on theschedule, I just hire on and
start training more guys and doit like that.
But I mean, right now I'm happywith where we are, but I'm
still trying to pretty muchevery task I'm doing I'm trying
(15:45):
to train somebody else to do it.
So I got to step back from thebusiness and work on trying to
grow it.
So sales was my biggest thing,where I was always doing sales
and dealing with customers,stuff like that.
Now I have a salesperson that'shandling that side of
everything.
So it gets me more back intothe shop.
Make sure quality is stillgoing good even though we're
cranking out more work.
So I mean, once I can feelconfident with all this stuff,
(16:09):
then we'll go and bring onanother sales person and more
guys and keep on going at it.
So yeah, just got to make surethe quality stays there.
That's the one thing I don'twant to be out too far to where
we start going downhill.
We're not putting out the sameproduct and then that's where
things start going south.
So just try to make sure Istill stay involved with
everything, but also try to stepback at the same time and let
(16:32):
it all grow.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Right, so it sounds like you're bringing on a
salesperson, so you you're.
Are you no longer doing salesor you're just doing some of the
sales?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I just do some of it I try to do.
I work with the normal regularclients that I've been working
with for years.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
But other than that, like any new uh requests that
come in, it all just goes to hergotcha okay so you have a
salesperson and then do you havelike a like a production
manager who's kind of managingthe production side of things as
well.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I do.
I have the.
The salesperson kind of handlesthe client from the start to
the finish.
Anything carpentry related.
They deal with my leadcarpenter.
He works on everything fromdesign to you know install.
I have the shop painter.
He's the one that kind of goesand runs from you know start to
(17:29):
finish on all the finish side ofthings.
So I guess I don't really havesomebody like in charge of the
entire project.
It's more of like a whole teameffort.
We all work together and get itall done.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
It sounds like the salesperson is at least they're
responsible for that clientrelationship through the entire.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, they are, so they're kind of like the project
manager on it.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, Okay, that makes sense, cool.
So, yeah, it sounds like youhave a pretty good team in place
at this point where if youstepped away for a couple weeks,
it could still operate withoutyou, which is great.
I know you mentioned earlier onthat.
(18:12):
Right now the growth is reallyreferral and repeat work, really
referral and repeat work.
Have you looked at doingoutbound type marketing, like to
, to get the word out moreaggressively, to, to grow?
Speaker 2 (18:26):
it.
Uh, I have, I used to.
I've done all types ofadvertising.
I've been on TV, we've donecommercials, uh, newspapers, I
have my logo on buses, gyms, alltypes of stuff and uh, pretty
much my biggest return oninvestment has just been word of
mouth, a lot of that otherstuff.
You're just spending a ton ofmoney and not seeing any results
(18:48):
from it.
So that's why I've kind ofdialed back on my marketing and
just been running off word ofmouth.
But I mean Google ads, facebookleads those have been pretty
big for us out of everythingwe've done.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Oh, Facebook ads.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, I mean, like the local Facebook groups,
people for cabinets and stuff onthere, and just word of mouth.
We can just take over one ofthose posts with recommendations
, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Okay, yeah, so not Facebook ads, but Facebook
groups, where you're yeah okay,gotcha, okay, um, yeah, yeah,
repeat referral works definitelythe cheapest uh form of
marketing and it's the bestbecause they're coming in pretty
warm, because they they eitherworked with them before or they
(19:35):
you worked with their, theirfriend or whoever their family
member.
So those are always the besttype of leads.
And there's definitelybusinesses out there that just
do repeat referral and over timethey grow to millions of
dollars in revenue.
It just usually takes longer.
(19:56):
They're in business for 20, 30years, years and then they're
doing multiple millions.
But from from what I've seen, alot of the folks that get growth
quickly.
They're doing door-to-doormarketing, those type of
(20:22):
outbound like getting findingpeople who need your service and
growing off of usually one ofthose three things or a
combination of those things, andthey definitely are more
expensive.
And this is great for youbecause you you're at you know,
60 65 gross profit and the kindof the rule of thumb when you're
(20:47):
growing aggressively is thatyou should allocate about a
third of your gross profit tocustomer acquisition costs if
you're trying to growaggressively.
So if you have, let's just say,65% gross profit divided by
three, so that gets us to 21.6%for customer acquisition costs,
(21:09):
which customer acquisition costsis basically your marketing
spend plus what you pay yoursalesperson, and so that's what
you should be up to, the amountyou should be willing to pay for
customer acquisition.
So, to kind of break it downfurther, your average job size
is what like 7,500 or something.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
I think we're at like probably 8,500.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
8,500.
So 8,500 times 0.65 to get yourgross profit is about 5,500.
And so if we divide 5,500,divided by three, that would
give you about $1,800.
And that would be basicallywhat I would typically look at
(21:54):
like recommending to spend onclosing the deal.
So that would be paying amarketer or paying for a
marketing source like Facebookads or direct door-to-door, plus
what you have to pay yoursalesperson for their time and
commission and everything.
So all the costs to close thedeal.
So 1,800 bucks.
(22:15):
Usually the way that splits outis usually the salesperson gets
somewhere around 8% of what theyclose.
Like maybe you pay them 6% ofwhat they close plus payroll
taxes ends up being 8% or so andthen the rest of it marketing
costs.
So if your average job size is8,500 and your salesperson is
(22:40):
actually doing more than justsales, they're doing sales plus
production management.
So really that's good Cause Isaid 8% for a salesperson but my
definition was just closing thedeal, but you're actually
paying them to also kind of do alittle bit of project
management through the project.
So that's that's a pretty goodamount, because doing project
(23:00):
management on top of salesthat's like another four to 7%
on top of the 8%.
So.
So 8% on 8,500 is 680.
So that leaves about a thousandbucks to spend on getting the
lead roughly.
(23:21):
So that would be like therecommend if you were going to
do outbound marketing, lookingat where you can spend a
thousand dollars and get a leadin so that your sales person can
close it and and and then.
Have that, you know, basicallygrow more quickly than than just
relying on repeat and referral.
Have that, you know, basicallygrow more quickly than than just
(23:41):
relying on repeat and referral.
Now, pretty easily you shouldbe able to do that, like
Facebook ads, because I knowFacebook ads it's usually about
$60 on average per lead anddepending on your set rate and
your close rate.
You know most folks are payingaround four to $500 for a closed
deal from Facebook ads.
(24:02):
So if you have a thousanddollar budget, that's you know
well within.
You know you close a couple,couple of jobs by spending a
thousand dollars instead of justone.
So Facebook ads might be a uhan option for you.
Of course there's alsodoor-to-door, where that's a
cheaper option.
(24:22):
It should be cheaper thanFacebook ads.
It just takes more time tobuild that door-to-door outbound
team and more training andmanagement, but that's
definitely a good option as well.
And then direct mail it canwork in certain, certain
neighborhoods, especially if youhave certain neighbors you're
targeting.
Um, it just takes some time toget to get traction.
(24:44):
It's not as immediate as likeFacebook, but it can be around
this similar cost of Facebook,but you just take more time.
So, you know, I think I thinkyou have an awesome opportunity
based off of where you are now,how much margin you have, and
then you have a good amount ofmoney you could set aside to
basically plug into yourcustomer acquisition, because
(25:09):
you're basically, if you cankeep your, like I said, your ad
costs your marketing spend to$1,000 per job.
You basically put in $1,000 andyou get $5,500 back at a gross
profit, right On your averagejob size.
So it's a pretty good.
You know, you basically youhave a money printing machine on
(25:32):
your hands.
It sounds like just finding theright marketing channel and you
can definitely grow it to thenext level.
It sounds like cool, awesome.
Well, I think I think this hasbeen a really awesome
conversation.
I really appreciate your timetoday, joss.
(25:53):
Do you have any any finalthoughts?
For any listener that's maybelooking to to niche in a
particular niche in their intheir business?
What should they be thinkingabout on you know a way to do
that appropriately, or or justany other thoughts for the
(26:13):
business owners that you thinkwould be.
You wish that you had known,you know, looking back on your
career, Um, I mean, just don'twait, time's ticking.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So if you want to specialize in something, get to
it.
Uh, task delegation.
If you want to grow yourbusiness, you just can't be the
business.
You got to step back.
So I wish I would have knownthat a long time ago.
Um, there was many years whereall it was was just me doing it,
and you know, definitelywouldn't be where I am today if
(26:43):
I still had that same mindset.
So that's it.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Excellent advice.
I really appreciate it, josh.
You've been super generous withyour time.
Josh, really like to thank youfor sharing your insights on the
industry and on your business.
Super.
I think you provide a lot ofvalue today, so I really
appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Absolutely, and for the listeners.
We will see you next week.
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, daniel Honan,cpa and former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable, one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited.
Today I'm here with Josh Henryout of South Carolina.
(00:31):
How's it going, josh?
Good, how are you?
I'm doing well, I'm doing well,so I'm really excited to get
into your story today.
Can you give the audience, thelisteners, an idea of how you
got started in the paintingindustry and what has been your
journey along the way?
Some major milestones.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Okay, well, I've been in the industry since I was 18.
Started, found an ad in thepaper when I was living out in
Florida it was actually for atub refinisher, so didn't know
anything about it.
Went, applied, got the job, job, and one thing led to the next,
just started branching out fromthere.
And then I moved to SouthCarolina, tried to find a job.
(01:13):
Nobody would hire me.
So end up starting my owncompany and from there we kind
of just expanded just as moreneeds came up.
We just kept on going with it.
One day somebody asked hey, canyou paint our cabinets?
I was like, well, you know what, why not?
So just pretty much startedgrowing from there.
And then, like I said, onething leads to the next.
(01:34):
We got more into the cabinetside of things and we just kept
on growing and now we're at thepoint now we have nine employees
, a 5,000 square foot warehouse.
We, uh, are probably thelargest cabinet company around
(01:54):
here in this area.
Um, we offer refinishing,refacing, custom cabinets and uh
, yeah, things have just kind oftaken off.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
That's awesome.
So I love this because a lot offolks I speak to like,
especially if they're doingbelow $350,000 a year, they feel
like they have to do everything.
They have to do interior,exterior, cabinets, flooring.
They have to do all the thingsto get more revenue, flooring.
(02:29):
They have to do all the thingsto get more revenue.
And I'm like there's actuallyfolks out there who just do one
or two things really well andthey become known for those
things and they just blow up.
And I feel like you kind of fitthat latter definition, where
you've kind of found a niche andyou've become known for that
niche and you've been reallyable to capitalize on that.
(02:51):
Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Oh yeah, definitely.
I don't want to go out and doanything and everything.
We just found our littlespecialty and we're good at it,
so we stick with it.
I try to teach myself and I'malways learning.
There's always stuff to learnin this industry, so I'm always
trying to stay up to date on thetechnology and all the new
stuff coming out in the industry.
(03:12):
So pretty much we can offer thebest product and best service
possible.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, and how long have you?
I know you started when youwere 18.
How long have you actually beenrunning this business at this
point?
10 years now 10 years and wherehave you gone from?
Obviously you started up 10years ago and, in terms of
revenue, just to get an idea ofhow large an operation you're
running, where's the revenue?
(03:39):
Looking like these last year orso.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Last year we were breaking a million okay, awesome
, so you're just doing cabinet.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
For the most part is it is cabinet refinishing,
refacing.
Um, that's the the core.
Like 80 of your revenue iscoming from that.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Is that fair or yes, about 80% is all cabinets.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Okay and you're doing , you know, a million plus in
that ballpark just doing thatone service, and so that's
awesome.
So you probably have like areally dialed in process, I
would imagine.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
We do.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, could you.
How did you?
What gave you the?
Because I feel like a lot offolks that are, you know they
maybe want to niche, but theyfeel like, but it's hard to give
up that revenue when you know,oh, I want to niche in cabinets
but then someone comes to youlike, hey, can you paint the
(04:40):
exterior of my house?
How do you maintain thatdiscipline?
Like, no, we actually just docabinets and just, you know,
turn down that, that revenue.
That's, you know, easy, causethe person's just asking you,
hey, can you just paint theexterior of my house?
How do you manage that?
Like, what do you?
What's your mindset with that?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Um, I just don't want to mess with it.
Um, we, we've found what welike to do and we're good at it,
so that's why I stick with.
So somebody asked me to painttheir house.
That's, that's not my thing.
Um, I just want the specialtystuff.
So it's just been a happen forme and all my guys that work for
me.
They specialize in one thing.
So I have somebody that all hedoes is spray doors all day in
(05:20):
the shop.
I have somebody that sprayscabinets on site all day, and
then our carpentry team, um, aswell as some insulators, so so
everybody is good at their joband that's kind of what they
stick with.
So I don't want to go and throwcurve balls and be like, hey,
can you go out here and justpaint this room now, because
it's just not what we do.
So we just find our specialtyand we stick with it.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
That's amazing.
So you even have it broken downspecific to the person where
they have a role within thecabinet refinishing refacing
process.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
And so I can't imagine they must be like super
efficient.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
They are.
So these people, they do thisall day, every day, so that is
their one job, that's their task.
They know what to do, the insand outs.
If there's an issue, they knowhow to correct it.
So I mean, they're that's whatthey're good at.
I tried before having peoplethat do a bit of everything in
the process and just turns to bethat not everybody's good at
everything.
So pretty much I'm just findingpeople that are set and they're
(06:20):
skilled in that one area andthat's where they shine.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, that's great, and I guess so now that's how it
runs.
Like you have folks that havetheir own position, they know
their role, they're efficient.
Did you have that vision earlyon, like, how did you get there?
Because I feel like that's yeah, did you have that vision early
on?
Or like and if you didn't, howdid you end up getting getting
(06:48):
this vision of you?
Know, everyone has their ownjob.
We only do cabinet refacing,resurfacing.
How did you get there?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
It took a while.
It took to, took me to reallylet go and trust people to do
things.
So task delegation, that was mybiggest thing.
So, beginning I tried doingeverything myself and because I
was like nobody's gonna careabout this company as much as I
am, so nobody's gonna put in theeffort, they're not gonna go
above and beyond and make surethe customers are happy, like
(07:17):
like an owner will.
So that was my biggest hurdle.
Going through this is actuallyletting go and stepping back and
be like you know I can't scalethis business if I am the
business.
So that was my biggest thing.
And then once I started growingand getting more skilled
employees, that came in prettymuch.
(07:38):
It's a long journey but as soonas you find somebody good, you
just got to take care of themand they'll take care of you.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, and when you started early on, were you also
just focusing on cabinetresurfacing, repainting
exclusively.
When you, when you started aswell or did, was that, did that
evolve where you then niched?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
That evolved too.
So it started out with the tubrefinishing and repairs stuff
like that.
And then I started doing withthe tub refinishing and repairs
stuff like that.
And then, uh, I started doingthis as a part-time job.
So I wasn't just you don't justshow up one day and, okay,
we're slammed now.
So, um, I started easing myselfinto this, doing little side
jobs here and there, and justkind of grew to where I could
quit my day job and do this fulltime.
(08:22):
And then, uh, from there wejust kind of scaled everything
and cabinets came along.
Just probably like a couple ofyears into it Somebody asked me
if we could paint their cabinetsor if I could paint their
cabinets.
Back then it was just me andyou know I knew a lot about
coatings.
I knew the process andapplication, how to do it.
So I was like, you know what,why not Gave it a shot?
(08:43):
It was a recurring customer, sothey kind of knew my work and
everything and did the job.
And you know, looking back onit all these years later, I
realized I could have done waybetter than I did, but took the
jump.
And then after that I just kindof been trying to teach myself
and better myself with all thedifferent, you know, application
(09:04):
methods and the coatings thatare out there.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
And now this, it kind of just took over and now we
just specialize in in all thisso you sound like you were you
started with tub refinishing andthen you you tried out cabinet
refinishing, resurfacing, andthen that that worked well.
Was it because the demand ishigher for that that you decided
to kind of more focus oncabinet refinishing resurfacing,
(09:29):
or was there something elseinvolved?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
It's bigger ticket jobs.
So I was looking at the bigpicture here.
I mean we could refinish, get atub done and make like 800, 900
bucks on it, or we could do akitchen Kitchen.
We're at $5,000 to $10,000.
So just it's bigger work, itfills the schedule.
(09:52):
More I tell we do in a day, uh,cabinets is going to fill the
schedule, keep the guys busy.
And word of mouth it's just abigger like wow factor.
So people see it, they go intotheir other friends next door
neighbor's house oh, yourkitchen looks beautiful.
Who did it?
And then it kind of goes offfrom that.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So now I mean we don't even really advertise,
it's all just straight word ofmouth oh, wow, that's really
good, especially for your level,uh, for revenue a million
dollars in revenue so, and thenyou've only been doing cabinet
resurfacing, repainting, I mean,uh, resurfacing, uh,
refinishing for what?
(10:27):
Seven or eight years at thispoint, yeah, okay, yeah, that's,
that's really good growth forfor a million dollars in revenue
for seven, seven, eight years.
So, and it's all referral andit's because, basically, you're
wowing people and they'rethey're telling their friends
when they come over and see thekitchen and that seems to be
working really well.
So that's awesome.
(10:49):
So, uh, what I guess?
Um, you're.
You mentioned earlier thatyou're pretty much the go-to
person.
There's no one else in yourarea that specializes in
cabinets, and right, is thataccurate?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So we're the only people that specialize in it.
There's other companies outhere that will do it, but our
means of selling this to peopleis hey, we do this all day,
every day, versus somebody thatjust does a kitchen once a month
or once every couple months.
So that's like our biggestselling point there.
I've invested a bunch of moneyback into the company so we have
an actual permanent spray boothum thousands of dollars in
(11:32):
equipment.
Um, we even tint our owncoatings in-house.
So I mean, I've invested a tonof money to show people like,
hey, we're devoted, this is whatwe do and we do it well.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, and because of that, your ability to
communicate that in your salesprocess, have you found that
you're able to charge higherprices than other folks in the
Okay?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
We are one of the most expensive companies out
here, but people will still gowith us.
Um, they're just.
We use it to show people thatwe're selling quality right.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I mean I, you guys are.
Your team is doing cabinetresigning or refinishing,
resurfacing every single day.
Uh, so they're probably I wouldimagine they're the best in the
area.
For sure, that's all you guysdo, and so you're able to charge
more money.
Plus, it sounds like your guysare super efficient, I would
(12:28):
imagine, because they're doingthe same job every single day.
So your margins, I wouldventure to say, are probably
pretty good.
So you're just able to see alot of benefits on the sales
side charge more money, you'remore efficient, so you have
higher gross profit.
(12:48):
Would you mind sharing yourgross profit margins?
Like what do you typically hitand um well, let's see we're
probably grossing.
We probably have like 50 to 75profit off, mostly jobs, wow so
(13:09):
on average you say it soundslike you get like, on average,
60 to 65 gross profit margin ona typical job.
Yeah, yeah, that's, that'samazing.
That is amazing.
And I've I've looked atfinancials for you know hundreds
of painting businesses and thatis in the top 1% for sure In
(13:32):
terms of other paintingbusinesses, even at 1 million
and above.
You know, because, as youusually for for businesses, as
they grow they get a bettersales process, they get better
at their processes, so the grossprofit margin doesn't improve
over time.
And the top 20% they're doing50% plus.
(13:58):
The top 20% of the folks thatI've worked with are doing 50%
risk profit or higher.
The top 60%, 65%, that's toptier.
I don't know the highest riskprofit I know that someone hits
on a regular basis is about 65%.
(14:19):
That's the highest.
I've seen it.
So you're right there with thehighest that I've ever heard of.
So that is amazing.
Congratulations on the successthere.
I can't emphasize that to the,to the listeners.
Um, how amazing that is.
And it's just, it's justamazing what you can do with
(14:40):
when you're niching down andbeing disciplined and then
getting your team also nichedown, like they're niched down
on a particular task that theydo every day, so they're super
efficient.
You're, you're able to chargehigher prices and you're just
killing it, so kudos to you.
That's amazing.
Yeah, absolutely.
(15:01):
And I guess what do you seelike?
What's the next step for you?
Are you trying to grow to thenext level or are you just like
man, this is great.
I'm good with kind of stayingin this revenue range and you
know, because I'm sure you'reyou're making a decent living
and everything like how, how,what's your thinking on the next
(15:21):
steps for your business?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
We keep on growing.
I just hired on another salesrep so we're just trying to
crank stuff out and increase.
I mean we get too busy on theschedule, I just hire on and
start training more guys and doit like that.
But I mean, right now I'm happywith where we are, but I'm
still trying to pretty muchevery task I'm doing I'm trying
(15:45):
to train somebody else to do it.
So I got to step back from thebusiness and work on trying to
grow it.
So sales was my biggest thing,where I was always doing sales
and dealing with customers,stuff like that.
Now I have a salesperson that'shandling that side of
everything.
So it gets me more back intothe shop.
Make sure quality is stillgoing good even though we're
cranking out more work.
So I mean, once I can feelconfident with all this stuff,
(16:09):
then we'll go and bring onanother sales person and more
guys and keep on going at it.
So yeah, just got to make surethe quality stays there.
That's the one thing I don'twant to be out too far to where
we start going downhill.
We're not putting out the sameproduct and then that's where
things start going south.
So just try to make sure Istill stay involved with
everything, but also try to stepback at the same time and let
(16:32):
it all grow.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Right, so it sounds like you're bringing on a
salesperson, so you you're.
Are you no longer doing salesor you're just doing some of the
sales?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I just do some of it I try to do.
I work with the normal regularclients that I've been working
with for years.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
But other than that, like any new uh requests that
come in, it all just goes to hergotcha okay so you have a
salesperson and then do you havelike a like a production
manager who's kind of managingthe production side of things as
well.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I do.
I have the.
The salesperson kind of handlesthe client from the start to
the finish.
Anything carpentry related.
They deal with my leadcarpenter.
He works on everything fromdesign to you know install.
I have the shop painter.
He's the one that kind of goesand runs from you know start to
(17:29):
finish on all the finish side ofthings.
So I guess I don't really havesomebody like in charge of the
entire project.
It's more of like a whole teameffort.
We all work together and get itall done.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
It sounds like the salesperson is at least they're
responsible for that clientrelationship through the entire.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, they are, so they're kind of like the project
manager on it.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, Okay, that makes sense, cool.
So, yeah, it sounds like youhave a pretty good team in place
at this point where if youstepped away for a couple weeks,
it could still operate withoutyou, which is great.
I know you mentioned earlier onthat.
(18:12):
Right now the growth is reallyreferral and repeat work, really
referral and repeat work.
Have you looked at doingoutbound type marketing, like to
, to get the word out moreaggressively, to, to grow?
Speaker 2 (18:26):
it.
Uh, I have, I used to.
I've done all types ofadvertising.
I've been on TV, we've donecommercials, uh, newspapers, I
have my logo on buses, gyms, alltypes of stuff and uh, pretty
much my biggest return oninvestment has just been word of
mouth, a lot of that otherstuff.
You're just spending a ton ofmoney and not seeing any results
(18:48):
from it.
So that's why I've kind ofdialed back on my marketing and
just been running off word ofmouth.
But I mean Google ads, facebookleads those have been pretty
big for us out of everythingwe've done.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Oh, Facebook ads.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, I mean, like the local Facebook groups,
people for cabinets and stuff onthere, and just word of mouth.
We can just take over one ofthose posts with recommendations
, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Okay, yeah, so not Facebook ads, but Facebook
groups, where you're yeah okay,gotcha, okay, um, yeah, yeah,
repeat referral works definitelythe cheapest uh form of
marketing and it's the bestbecause they're coming in pretty
warm, because they they eitherworked with them before or they
(19:35):
you worked with their, theirfriend or whoever their family
member.
So those are always the besttype of leads.
And there's definitelybusinesses out there that just
do repeat referral and over timethey grow to millions of
dollars in revenue.
It just usually takes longer.
(19:56):
They're in business for 20, 30years, years and then they're
doing multiple millions.
But from from what I've seen, alot of the folks that get growth
quickly.
They're doing door-to-doormarketing, those type of
(20:22):
outbound like getting findingpeople who need your service and
growing off of usually one ofthose three things or a
combination of those things, andthey definitely are more
expensive.
And this is great for youbecause you you're at you know,
60 65 gross profit and the kindof the rule of thumb when you're
(20:47):
growing aggressively is thatyou should allocate about a
third of your gross profit tocustomer acquisition costs if
you're trying to growaggressively.
So if you have, let's just say,65% gross profit divided by
three, so that gets us to 21.6%for customer acquisition costs,
(21:09):
which customer acquisition costsis basically your marketing
spend plus what you pay yoursalesperson, and so that's what
you should be up to, the amountyou should be willing to pay for
customer acquisition.
So, to kind of break it downfurther, your average job size
is what like 7,500 or something.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
I think we're at like probably 8,500.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
8,500.
So 8,500 times 0.65 to get yourgross profit is about 5,500.
And so if we divide 5,500,divided by three, that would
give you about $1,800.
And that would be basicallywhat I would typically look at
(21:54):
like recommending to spend onclosing the deal.
So that would be paying amarketer or paying for a
marketing source like Facebookads or direct door-to-door, plus
what you have to pay yoursalesperson for their time and
commission and everything.
So all the costs to close thedeal.
So 1,800 bucks.
(22:15):
Usually the way that splits outis usually the salesperson gets
somewhere around 8% of what theyclose.
Like maybe you pay them 6% ofwhat they close plus payroll
taxes ends up being 8% or so andthen the rest of it marketing
costs.
So if your average job size is8,500 and your salesperson is
(22:40):
actually doing more than justsales, they're doing sales plus
production management.
So really that's good Cause Isaid 8% for a salesperson but my
definition was just closing thedeal, but you're actually
paying them to also kind of do alittle bit of project
management through the project.
So that's that's a pretty goodamount, because doing project
(23:00):
management on top of salesthat's like another four to 7%
on top of the 8%.
So.
So 8% on 8,500 is 680.
So that leaves about a thousandbucks to spend on getting the
lead roughly.
(23:21):
So that would be like therecommend if you were going to
do outbound marketing, lookingat where you can spend a
thousand dollars and get a leadin so that your sales person can
close it and and and then.
Have that, you know, basicallygrow more quickly than than just
relying on repeat and referral.
Have that, you know, basicallygrow more quickly than than just
(23:41):
relying on repeat and referral.
Now, pretty easily you shouldbe able to do that, like
Facebook ads, because I knowFacebook ads it's usually about
$60 on average per lead anddepending on your set rate and
your close rate.
You know most folks are payingaround four to $500 for a closed
deal from Facebook ads.
(24:02):
So if you have a thousanddollar budget, that's you know
well within.
You know you close a couple,couple of jobs by spending a
thousand dollars instead of justone.
So Facebook ads might be a uhan option for you.
Of course there's alsodoor-to-door, where that's a
cheaper option.
(24:22):
It should be cheaper thanFacebook ads.
It just takes more time tobuild that door-to-door outbound
team and more training andmanagement, but that's
definitely a good option as well.
And then direct mail it canwork in certain, certain
neighborhoods, especially if youhave certain neighbors you're
targeting.
Um, it just takes some time toget to get traction.
(24:44):
It's not as immediate as likeFacebook, but it can be around
this similar cost of Facebook,but you just take more time.
So, you know, I think I thinkyou have an awesome opportunity
based off of where you are now,how much margin you have, and
then you have a good amount ofmoney you could set aside to
basically plug into yourcustomer acquisition, because
(25:09):
you're basically, if you cankeep your, like I said, your ad
costs your marketing spend to$1,000 per job.
You basically put in $1,000 andyou get $5,500 back at a gross
profit, right On your averagejob size.
So it's a pretty good.
You know, you basically youhave a money printing machine on
(25:32):
your hands.
It sounds like just finding theright marketing channel and you
can definitely grow it to thenext level.
It sounds like cool, awesome.
Well, I think I think this hasbeen a really awesome
conversation.
I really appreciate your timetoday, joss.
(25:53):
Do you have any any finalthoughts?
For any listener that's maybelooking to to niche in a
particular niche in their intheir business?
What should they be thinkingabout on you know a way to do
that appropriately, or or justany other thoughts for the
(26:13):
business owners that you thinkwould be.
You wish that you had known,you know, looking back on your
career, Um, I mean, just don'twait, time's ticking.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So if you want to specialize in something, get to
it.
Uh, task delegation.
If you want to grow yourbusiness, you just can't be the
business.
You got to step back.
So I wish I would have knownthat a long time ago.
Um, there was many years whereall it was was just me doing it,
and you know, definitelywouldn't be where I am today if
(26:43):
I still had that same mindset.
So that's it.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Excellent advice.
I really appreciate it, josh.
You've been super generous withyour time.
Josh, really like to thank youfor sharing your insights on the
industry and on your business.
Super.
I think you provide a lot ofvalue today, so I really
appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Absolutely, and for the listeners.
We will see you next week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!