June 27, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode, host Daniel Honan, CPA and former painting business owner, sits down with Ryan Ezzell, the founder of a rapidly growing painting business in Tennessee. Ryan shares his incredible journey from starting with door-to-door sales to scaling his company to over $1.5M in revenue in the first year and on track for $4M+ in year two.
🔹 Key Takeaways:
- How Ryan built a hybrid team of subcontractors and in-house painters.
- The power of door-to-door marketing and how it fueled his early growth.
- Why hiring salespeople first was a game-changer for his business.
- The importance of aligning incentives with subcontractors and employees.
- Ryan’s mindset shifts and lessons learned from scaling so quickly.
Whether you’re just starting your painting business or looking to take it to the next level, Ryan’s story is packed with actionable insights and inspiration.
#PaintingBusiness #Entrepreneurship #BusinessGrowth #DoorToDoorMarketing #PaintingContractor #SmallBusinessSuccess #TheProfitablePainterPodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running and scaling a
professional painting business,from the brushes and ladders to
the spreadsheets and balancesheets.
We've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution While we strive
to provide accurate andup-to-date financial and tax
(00:20):
information, nothing you hear onthis podcast should be
considered as financial advicespecifically for you or your
business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
(00:42):
before making any significantfinancial decision.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, daniel Honan,cpa, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering your numbers and that
drive success.
So let's go ahead and dive inand make your business more
profitable, one episode at atime.
Today, I'm super excited totalk to Ryan Ezell out of
(01:07):
Tennessee.
He's running an outstandingpainting business over there and
I'm really excited to jump intohis story, so I'd like to
welcome Ryan to the podcast.
How's it going, ryan?
Good, daniel, how are you?
I'm doing well, doing well.
I'm really looking forward toour conversation today.
Could you give the listeners anidea of how you got started in
(01:29):
the painting industry and whathave been some major milestones
along the way?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yeah, sure, first off , thanks for having me on.
I think this is the mostvaluable topic out there that's
usually not discussed before orin the beginning stages of
entrepreneurship.
So we got started about 20months ago actually and I had a
(01:54):
good corporate job and you know,I just we were never getting
ahead.
Put it that way, you know, andyou know I always looked around
I've said this before.
Some people just have thatburning desire for
entrepreneurship and it's notgoing to get fulfilled unless
you act on it.
And that was very much the casefor me.
(02:17):
From when I was a little kid, Iwas spray painting numbers on
curbs and my dad would go buythings from Sam's and Costco so
I could set up on the corner,you know, and sell things.
But you know, just to make avery long story somewhat short,
you know my wife and I went on atrip and I was looking at
(02:38):
everything that, what I wouldimagine an entrepreneur had
gained over the course of hislife nice lake houses, um, you
know just a little bit more, youknow, because they took that
risk, you know, and um.
So on the way home from thislate trip, I listened, I
(02:58):
consumed everything I possiblycould about starting a painting
company and my wife was justlike, what are you listening to?
Like, you know, it's been hoursand I am just, I'm consumed.
You know, my grandfather ran apainting company for 50 years in
Nashville and he was, um, heeventually was off the brush,
(03:20):
but you know I don't think hetook it as big as it could have
been.
You know the brush, but youknow I don't think he took it as
big as it could have been.
You know, you know, back thenit was a lot about hey, how much
can you write off?
You know how much, you know,can you show zero?
And that's really what justkind of sparked like, hey, if we
were going to do something,anything, you know why not do
that?
You know, it's somewhat in myblood all my uncles and you know
(03:45):
distant cousins, and everybodywas a painter.
So my wife and I, you know, wehad a little bit of extra money,
about enough to start an LLCand we were just sitting in the
living room one day and justsaid, all right, let's just do
it, let's just try.
Uh, paint pro was available, um, so we jumped in and we
literally started the business.
(04:05):
I come from a background of ofdoor to door.
Um, so every day, when I gotoff work, I would just dive into
the neighborhood that wasclosest to my job and just knock
, I mean, until I was justexhausted, you know.
And, um, you know, looking backon it, man, it was the oh God.
(04:26):
It was just, it was the bestthing I ever could have done.
Um, you know, it was sofulfilling now looking back, but
, you know, and then my wifewould get out with me on
Saturdays, we'd hire ababysitter and go knock for
three or four hours and we wouldstack up, you know, three or
four jobs in a day.
And, um, so we did that for aslong as we possibly could until,
(04:47):
basically, I was a full-timeproject manager, full-time sales
guy and I had a full-time job.
So one day my boss found out Ihad this side job and he brought
me into his office and said,hey, man, like, look, go be an
entrepreneur, like it's, Isupport you, and so much so that
(05:10):
he let me paint his office,20,000 square foot, let me paint
his house.
Um, it was just an amazing, youknow, uh, course of events that
had happened.
And so, man, I mean, you know,once you take that step, there
is a tremendous amount of fearinvolved.
It's like we had that safetynet for so long of having this
(05:34):
salary that sustained us.
And you know, over that courseof only three months, you know,
we made great money.
We made enough money topurchase our first home.
This was additional income,right Purchase our first home,
remodel our first home.
And now it was coming to thepoint where now this is going to
provide for us, for our entirefamily, my wife and three kids.
(05:58):
And so we did it, man.
We jumped in July 4th Actuallythat was my Independence Day and
we went in.
We started full fledged and,you know, god just blessed us
every step we took.
It was just like man, okay, Ithink we can do this.
(06:18):
So that's kind of how itstarted.
(06:41):
And then milestones, man.
I mean we were hitting like$65,000, $85,000 months pretty
consistently during that time.
But as soon as I jumped into itfull time, you know put my
owner cap on it's when westarted to cross the 100,000
months barriers and the rest ofthat year, july I think we hit
about 110.
August.
It just kept going up and upand up and we didn't cross 200
that year, but we were into the185s, 189s all the way through,
(07:01):
really the most part of thatyear, even into the winter, and
then so we actually did 1.5million our first 12 months in
business, our first calendaryear, and then January, we
increased our ad spend, webrought on project managers,
(07:22):
additional sales.
That's when it started to rampup.
So we did a little over 200January, a little higher than
that in February, and then Marchwe had a monster.
We did like 408,000 in March.
And then, you know, april hadanother really strong month.
(07:45):
I think it was um, almost 400,380, something like that.
Um, so you know, it was likemilestones are like man, a
hundred thousand dollars in amonth, that's a massive
milestone.
And then your first million,that's a massive milestone, you
know.
And then now we've done, uh,we've uh, well, over one and a
(08:07):
half million just so far thisyear.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
So you're, you're on track.
For what?
2 million this year.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
No, well, you know it may have been a little lofty.
Everyone said we're actually,our goal is 5 million this year.
Um, we are, um, we are overone1.5 million.
With the strong part of theyear left, we feel, I think we
can hit $4 million.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
I'd be surprised if we didn't $4 million and this is
the second full year right.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
We haven't hit two years yet, so we're 20 months in
business.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Gotcha.
So the first year you did 1.5and this year we're looking to
hit 4 million.
Yep, okay, that's, that'samazing.
So you, you have reallyaccomplished something.
I mean, the first year you hitit out of the park 1.5 and the
first 12 months, that's amazing.
It out of the park 1.5 in thefirst 12 months, that's amazing.
(09:08):
And then to over, you know,you're projected to over double
that.
Uh, the second year, that is,that is super impressive.
And I'm sure there is a wholeton of work, uh and and
headaches that went into that.
Those uh 20 months so far, um,but I appreciate you you sharing
.
So I'd love to dig into becauseyou were initially.
(09:28):
I love the fact you weredoor-to-door initially and
you're just grinding it whileyou're doing.
You know you're workingfull-time right In your
corporate job and so you'redoing full-time work at your
corporate job.
And then you were doingdoor-to-door marketing in your
weekends and evenings, right?
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
And it sounds like you said that while you were
still working, you were doing at$1.65,000 per month, while you
were still working full-time.
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Okay, that's right.
I mean that's really impressive.
So you would do door knockingwhen you were doing 65K a month,
were you still door knockingand doing the sales and
production management and thenjust subbing out to crews, is
that?
Speaker 3 (10:22):
kind of what you were doing during that first Correct
.
Yeah, I should also say you knowpretty much the first.
Within two months of startingthe business, as soon as we
started to become profitable, wedumped the majority of our our
profits into marketing.
So then it started to pick upand instead of knocking doors
every day because we realizedthat was not sustainable for
(10:42):
very long, we started to get twoappointments a day, four
appointments a day, six, youknow.
It got to a point where as manyas we could book, we would run
so that that's super impressive.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So you were dumping money, your extra money, into
marketing to just grow it, growit, grow it.
So you had that going, didwhere were you putting?
Obviously you were doingdoor-to-door uh yourself, and it
sounded like your wife washelping you as well.
Was there anybody else helpingwith door-to-door in the
beginning?
And um, or was it just you two?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
okay, yeah, it was, and she only you know she's she
was mostly at home with our kids.
So, um, you know she went out acouple times, but just those
couple of times it was.
She's actually has a backgroundin door-to-door as well.
It's how we met actually so forus it was fun, you know.
It was like let's go out hereand not only provide for our
family, but let's get back toour roots.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, that's awesome.
That's super cool.
So are you guys still usingdoor-to-door in your company for
marketing, or have you switchedto a different channel?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah, we do.
I would say 90% is throughlead-generated appointments.
Anytime it's slow.
I tell my guys, especially oneof them.
We brought him on as adoor-to-door guy last year and I
mean he was absolutely crushingit.
He was getting five, sometimesmore, appointments a day, and so
(12:13):
anytime we're low, if theydon't have two appointments a
day minimum, we'll tell peopleto go hit around the houses that
we're painting currently andthat's in my opinion.
There's not a strongerappointment or customer
acquisition than that.
It's the strongest.
You can point and say hey,we're right here, Come walk the
job with us, see how we do it doit, you know so, you're, you're
(12:43):
um, so you have.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
You still have door-to-door in your, in your
culture.
It sounds like not only do youhave people doing it like
designated as their position,but you're even your crews, you
encourage that.
Do you guys like?
You do like a referral fee orsomething if they, if they get a
lead that turns into anestimate or something for your
crew?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Okay, I mean we do percentage, just like we do with
sales guys.
So my project manager justlanded a $13,000 job and he's
going to get 5% of that on topof his salary.
So we encourage anywhere youare, it doesn't matter.
In my opinion, you can throw arock and find an opportunity in
paint, commercial, residential,it's everywhere.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, so is 5% your typical fee for someone doing
door-to-door, or is that just aspecial situation you had with
your project manager?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, I pay him 5%.
I would pay anybody 5%.
That brought me a sale.
But our sales reps start at 7%and then my sales manager
actually makes 8% of top line.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Gotcha Okay.
So your door-to-door marketersare getting 5% of leads that
convert into sales, and thenyour salesperson gets 7%, and
then you have a sales managerthat gets 8% for managing the
sales team.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
We actually do our Door to Door.
Canvassers that are only doingDoor to Door.
They actually get $100 perappointment set.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
And there's a whole list of qualifications that come
with that.
It's not just, hey, we set thisappointment, I want name, email
, general description of scope,and then it's a hundred dollars
per appointment set and thoseare very strong appointments.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, so a hundred dollars per set appointment and
then no, no bonus for closing,or they get also a bonus for
okay.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
I want them solely focused on generating.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Okay, qualified leads , okay, got it.
And then so $100 per qualifiedset appointment, and so this is
great because a lot of folks arekind of intimidated with
door-to-door and it can be avery inexpensive customer
acquisition machine, because$100 per qualified lead, I mean
(15:03):
you might need three of those toclose the deal, so you might
spend three hundred dollars per,you know, uh, per job that you
book, which is, you know,probably five percent, like
you're saying, of like anaverage job size of six6,000.
Is that kind of what you think?
Our average?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
job size is about 7,000.
But if you think about it, if Iget a Facebook lead, I mean we
spend $15,000 a month onFacebook advertising.
So if I get a Facebook lead,it's anywhere from, let's just
say, an average of, you know,300 to 350 or something like
that.
So to your point, if I can geta hundred dollar lead, that's
(15:42):
set expecting us.
That's a great deal.
And also think about it fromthe the canvassers perspective.
Wait, so you can set 20appointments a week and make a
hundred thousand dollars a year.
You know that's an amazingopportunity for a young guy as
well which I found my firstcanvasser.
I found him in the gym.
I was like, what are you doing?
You work for me?
(16:03):
Now Come on.
And he just went out and just Ialways say like, dude, enter
that state where it's like youjust go numb, don't care what
anybody says to you.
You know, smart guys don't makemoney, right, it's the dumb
ones that are just dumb enoughto go up and knock a door.
Yeah, and it's been amazing.
(16:23):
You know, this dude made moremoney than a lot of you know
parents just out knocking doors.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, that's awesome, yeah, it's.
You don't have to be like yousaid, you don't have to be super
smart, but if you can take someabuse because door knocking it
can definitely be discouragingyou knock on a hundred doors and
not get anything for a while,but it's just a numbers game.
You gotta, you gotta, uh,bulldoze through that, and
that's awesome that you comefrom that background, so you're
(16:52):
probably able to provide somereally good training.
When I talk to folks thinkingabout door-to-door, a lot of the
times they kind of talkthemselves out of it.
They're like well, there'sneighborhoods that says no
soliciting on it and you know,or just you know, I tried it
(17:14):
once and it didn't really workfor me, kind of thing.
I feel like a lot of folks sellthemselves short on that idea of
door-to-door.
But it can be super cheap.
Like you mentioned, it'susually a lot less expensive
than Facebook ads Not to say youshouldn't run Facebook ads, but
it's just a very cheap outboundway where you can control it.
(17:35):
You can basically say if youhave a certain revenue goal, as
long as you put enough trainedfolks doing door to door, you
can hit that goal.
It's just a numbers game.
But what would you say to folksthat kind of have some
hesitation on implementing doorto door, maybe they they feel
like the neighborhoods don'tallow it or uh, do you have any
(17:59):
any thoughts on on implementingdoor to door in a in a painting
business?
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, and I mean, daniel, if you and I were being
honest, it's like um, there's,you're not going to get the easy
road for a long time.
Everything is hard Every singleday.
Everything's hard for a longtime when you start a business.
So really, if you're not opento really anything, you haven't
(18:27):
earned that right yet.
So in my opinion, if you go outand knock doors first off,
there's not a cheaper customeracquisition cost.
I know, eventually an owner'stime can be $1,500 an hour or
something like that, but you'reprobably not there yet.
So, first off, I couldn't havestarted my business without
(18:48):
going to door to door.
I don't know if you've everheard my story before, but I
walked up to a stranger's door,knocked on their door 5,000
square foot home paint lookedterrible and I had never painted
a home in my life.
I had no painters, I knewnothing, I knew less than
nothing.
Okay, I had been in businessfor two days.
Knocked on their door, the wifesaid oh, yeah, yeah, like we
(19:09):
need a painting job.
I said, okay, cool.
So I gave him a price $17,500.
They called me back the nextday and said yeah, yeah, sounds
great, let's do it.
So the other quote they got wasprobably 30,000, you know.
But and also I went to theguy's office and he said hey,
man, I looked you up.
You've only been in businessfor two days.
(19:29):
You know.
I'm like, well, you caught me,you know.
But he was an entrepreneur, hegave me the shot.
So in my opinion, dude, ifyou're in your first year of
business, you have not earnedthe right to be picky or choosy
about where you get your leads.
And if you go off and tee offI'm talking savagely, ruthlessly
(19:50):
go through and say I'm going toknock on every single door in
this neighborhood, I promise youyou're going to get sales.
It's the law of the universe.
I've knocked doors for so longand, honestly, if you're scared,
go at 530.
You're going to start seeingpeople come home.
You don't even have to knocktheir door, they're already
(20:12):
outside.
That's a good place to start,at least.
But I think anybody who takesthe risk and does it for five
days in a row, you're going toprobably book up for the next
month.
You know it's.
It's crazy how much you cangenerate from just knocking on
doors.
And then, dude, you know thedomino effect.
(20:32):
Now you have five customers.
You say, hey, can you, can youintroduce me to your neighbors
and all of a sudden you're doingthe whole neighborhood.
It's offensive to me when mysales reps don't go knock the
neighbors' doors.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, no, and it's funny too, because a lot of I
talk to painting business ownersevery day all day long.
Lot of you know I talk topainting business owners every
day, all day long and one of thethings that I'm hearing a lot
right now is oh, the economy iskind of weird this year and you
know leads are down and andstuff like that.
But you're you're kind of proofthat that the economy at large
(21:11):
doesn't really matter.
It's really the effort that youput in is what you're going to
get out of it, even if theeconomy is down.
You know your $4 millionbusiness is still a drop in the
bucket compared to the overallpaint jobs that are being sold
in your area.
You know you're you're stillyou're a large painting company
(21:32):
by comparison to the averagesize, but you know there's still
you're probably like 1% marketshare still.
You know cause there's so muchpainting being involved, like
you mentioned, like you couldthrow a rock and hit somebody
that needs a painting job.
So the the idea that becausethe economy is down and I'm
running a a million dollarbusiness, that's why my revenue
(21:55):
is down, you know that'sprobably not a good excuse.
It's probably you got to kindof take a hard look in the
mirror and at your team and say,okay, what are we not doing?
What do we need to do better to?
You know, even though the, theleads might be down on facebook
or whatever, what can weactively do to put more into it,
(22:17):
to get more out of it?
I agree completely.
No, no, this is, this is great.
And so you, you started outknocking doors and you you
started so quickly, at 1.5 inthe first year.
So I guess, what order did youstart outsourcing, getting team
(22:38):
members to help you, becausethat's a very quick growth?
So how did you?
Did you hold on to doorknocking in sales?
And then you, you gotsubcontractor crews and first
I'd imagine like how did thatwork?
How did you build your team soquickly?
What did you go for first?
What team members?
Speaker 3 (22:59):
I did it backwards, to what most people do.
The first role I hired was asales role, and it's only
because I had an, a player thatwas willing to come on board,
which is my brother-in-law.
He's an absolute stud of asales guy.
We worked together at ADT foryears and so I brought him on
board and so then I became thefull-time project manager,
(23:23):
office admin.
I was basically running theoffice.
He was doing sales.
We brought him on in the winter.
He made as much as he wasmaking you know before, but, um,
it wasn't like crazy.
Um, and then, when, summer, when, when, actually before that
January, you know, we had ourbiggest month ever up to that
(23:45):
point in January.
And then I brought on an officeadministrator and she handled
all incoming calls, all projectmanagements, well, all PTAs
prior to arrival forms, so lightcolor consultations, customer
preferences and customer colorsand stuff like that.
(24:07):
And then shortly thereafter Ihad a painter, that again very
loyal guy.
I promoted him to projectmanager.
So then we had sales officeproject manager and at this
point I mean we probably hadfive sub crews and we had
accumulated, uh, five in-houseguys.
(24:27):
So we had a bit of a hybridmodel.
And then, um, slowly we broughton another sales guy and um,
and at that point it's like whenyou have a business I know
there's people a lot bigger thanme, but when you have a large
painting company, the subs callyou.
(24:49):
You stop having to look forsubs.
They're calling you and textingyou every single day.
They see your ads and all thiskind of stuff.
And so we grew that way we haveabout 15 sub crews that we use
now and each one has theirspecialties and we use them
(25:09):
accordingly.
And then we have 12 in-housepainters, w2 guys that we use
every single week.
And it's nice because thehybrid model allows you.
You know I hate taking jobsunder $1,500.
I rarely will do it unless it'slike 12 and I know the person.
But if you deploy a one or twomain crew on a $1,500 job, it's
(25:34):
actually quite profitable.
You know it's a much higherprofitability margin than you
margin, than some jobs, and Iknow it's lower scale.
But it's good to have ourin-house guys to deploy, one or
two at a time for smaller jobs,two to three day jobs, most of
(26:06):
our sub crews.
We use the same subs everysingle week like clockwork and
they are studs.
And then we do have anadditional office
administrator's assistant nowwho handles.
Now she does all incoming callsbooks, all appointments, does
all the PTAs.
So right now we have two salesproject manager, two office
admin.
Then we have a media contentguy.
So he does, he goes to the jobsbefore, during and after,
captures content, posts dailyand then 12 in-house painters
(26:33):
that's, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
And you mentioned hiring subs, or at this point
they're.
They're calling you because youknow you get to a certain level
.
You prove that you can keepfolks busy, so they want to stay
busy.
They're calling you because youget to a certain level.
You prove that you can keepfolks busy, so they want to stay
busy, so they know who to reachout to.
Now, before you got to thatpoint, what were you doing to
find and vet subcontractor crews?
(26:57):
Because a thing that I hear alot is there's nobody out there
that wants to work.
A thing that I hear a lot isthere's nobody out there that
wants to work and I can't find.
You know, they might've bookeda lot on the sales side, but
then they have, you know, fourmonths of backlog of work that
they need to knock out toactually earn the money and they
you know they're having troublefinding good crews that that
work.
(27:17):
So do you have any?
What's your process, especiallytowards the beginning, where
you didn't have folks justreaching out to you all the time
?
Speaker 3 (27:28):
so you just talked about the pendulum, right, it's
always a pendulum either you'relow on sales and you got a
production a mile away, or yougot a production a mile away.
You can't find the enoughpeople to do it.
That middle ground, that'swhere bliss is right.
But it's very hard to find, andI had a great coach that I
(27:49):
started out with and he alwayssaid you have a weekly
production amount, right.
If you slow down past six weeks, lower your production amount
Four weeks.
Lower your production amountper week, so that you always
have four to six weeks outbooked and as soon as you start
to book out a little further, ifyou needed to, you could ramp
(28:12):
up production again.
But he taught me a great middleground which is like if we're
only booked out three weeks, I'mgoing to lower my production
that week to.
Maybe we were at 75,000production every week.
We've recently lowered it downto 50,000, so that we book back
up for that six weeks, you know.
So I would advise anybody toreally look at that model.
(28:34):
Where you're not worried abouthow much can I do in a week, you
can't.
You can't play that game, it'show long can I stay booked out.
It takes the stress off of you.
But for the subs I would like toalso clarify whether it's
customers or business ownersthat are listening to this the
only difference between asubcontractor and a W-2 employee
(28:57):
.
There's a couple of things, butwhat taxes at the end of the
day, how you file?
Some people say, well, that'snot, it's not a, it's not an
employee, so you don't havecontrol over the situation.
That's, that's not.
That's not correct.
And the reason I say that isbecause, at the end of the day,
you deal with me.
If you have a problem, you dealwith me.
(29:17):
The labor at the end of it,whether it's W-2 or 1099 subcont
, will do anything that isrequired.
And also you pay them basedupon receiving payment.
(29:49):
So they already know they'renot getting paid unless I get
paid.
So there is no oh man, I need athousand bucks to get me by.
Look, that's put me in badpositions before it's not
happening.
I get paid when you completethe job and you get paid when I
get paid.
So the way that I found my firstsub after I sold that $17,000
job, I drove around the entireafternoon and found painters
(30:13):
that were painting houses andone of them was actually
painting an entire apartmentcomplex and I found the only guy
that could communicate with meand I said get in the car, come
over here and tell me how muchyou charge me to paint this
house.
Now it's a lot different.
We immediately require okay, Ineed your, noi, I need your EIN
(30:35):
number at minimum, and that'sall.
Because the bigger you get youyou know you're the CPA.
It's like if I can't write thismoney off, I'm paying taxes on
it, right?
So at this point I have to beable to prove that I, I I wrote
you a check or deposited moneyinto your account.
(30:57):
Also, to the, the most basic wayto qualify a painter is just
ask.
The simplest question hey, sendme a couple pictures.
Depending on how many picturesthey send you is how good they
are, because they start goingthrough their Rolodex, you know,
and they're like oh man, thiswas a great one.
You know, and you can see, man,some of them aren't like
perfect pictures.
(31:18):
That's how you know they'rereal too.
You know that's a good place tostart.
And then I always start them ona small job or even my personal
house.
I'm always doing stuff aroundhere.
I'll have them come over hereand I want to see how they pull
up, what equipment they have.
That'll tell you everything youneed to know.
And you can't be emotional Ifthey pull up to a job and it
(31:40):
doesn't look right or feel rightand they're pulling, you know,
the Wagner sprayer out from HomeDepot for a hundred bucks, it's
like hang on a second, let's,let's.
We're not going to be able tomove forward, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, so no, I love it.
So it sounds like in thebeginning you were literally
kind of like how you got yourfirst lead, your door knocking
to get your crews.
You're literally driving aroundand finding people who are
already doing it and recruitingthem actively to come work for
you.
100% yeah, so that's again.
(32:15):
You were just putting in thehard work, so that's amazing.
And then you know, and youtalked about aligning incentives
so with subcontractors and ifyou have employees, you still
got to do the same thing, butwith subcontractors, you know,
you align their incentives.
You say, hey, you don't getpaid until I get paid, so you
(32:36):
got to make sure that thecustomer's happy, and so that
kind of aligns their incentives.
Like they got to make sureeverything you put in, that
sales present, that that, thatuh, that estimate, that quote
that they got, all thosepromises that you made or your
team made, is fulfilled upon bythem so that they, that your
customer pays you, so that theyget paid.
So it kind of like getseverybody on the same page,
(32:58):
regardless of how they're beingpaid, you know regardless of how
they're being paid.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
But, daniel, that was the hardest lesson that I
learned.
Because you try to bebuddy-buddy and friends and hey,
I know I'm not finishing today,I'm going to finish up Monday
Do you mind going ahead andpaying me?
You get to a point where youare broke, you have broken
yourself.
So now, just because you'retrying to be friends, these
people you know it's not justthe subs, everybody in business,
(33:26):
they are there for theirbenefit.
If you don't make yourself thepriority, you're never going to
last.
The hardest lesson I learnedwas being tough and saying I'm
sorry, I can't do it, I can't doit anymore.
You know so.
And man, people can be verypersuasive.
You know, I got to pay mypainters.
I hear it every single week oh,come on, give me this.
(33:48):
I got to pay my painters, we'regoing to finish up Monday.
It's the hardest part about thebusiness is saying I'm sorry,
thinking like a CPA, what thenumbers won't let me do that,
you know.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, yeah, you're right, it is tough, you know, to
stand that ground and a waythat it's helped me and I think
other folks is thinking it likeyou're the person responsible
for the business.
You need to keep the businessrunning so that everybody else
can benefit from the business.
(34:20):
So your customers benefit fromyour business, your employees
benefit from the business, thesubcontractors benefit from the
business.
People so your customersbenefit from your business, your
employees benefit from thebusiness, the subcontractors
benefit from the business.
So we got to keep the businessgoing because a lot of people
depend on it and if you'rebasically stealing from the
business to meet you know oneperson's you know situation,
that's not fair to everybodyelse that depends on the
(34:40):
business.
So you get it, you get it.
The business has to come firstbefore any one person's
individual need you know,because everybody else involved
with the business depends on itfor their, their paycheck or
their service.
So that that helps kind of, atleast for me and I think some
(35:01):
other folks like thinking of itthat way.
It's less about oh, what am Igoing to do in this situation.
It's really got to put thebusiness first because it
supports all these other people,all these other not only the
employees and the subcontractors, but the families of those
people as well, and yourcustomers, because they also are
relying on you to deliver aservice that you promise them.
(35:22):
So, yeah, it's definitely atough line to hold, but I think
it's definitely something that,as a business owner, it sounds
like you've definitely learnedthis, but I think a lot of folks
do need to hear that that yougot to hold the line and you got
to serve the business, becausethe business is serving
(35:42):
everybody else connected to it.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yeah, the trickle down effect is very real and if
you just start doing it on yourlevel, you'll see.
I pay this person.
They support their entirefamily, they go to the.
It's just it blows.
You know, you bless one personand it trickles down a thousand
times.
You know, and also too, justreal quick, if you don't put
your business first, who isgoing?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
to.
No one else is going to putyour business first.
Yeah, great point.
Exactly so, ryan, you've beensuper generous with your time.
I feel like we could keep goingfor like another three hours,
but I don't want to steal yourtime.
So do you have any lastthoughts for a painting business
owner out there that that wantsto grow Like like you've grown
(36:29):
so quickly over the last 20months?
Um, any any last words, wordsof advice that you could give to
somebody that's really lookingto grow their painting business
to the next level?
Speaker 3 (36:40):
uh, before we let you go today, yeah, I mean I, I had
a a a tough couple of years.
You know many years where, youknow I, I just I had a rough run
, you know.
So I had to.
I felt like I was behind a lot.
So I did some things that mostpeople probably wouldn't do.
(37:01):
I was very drastic.
I was all in.
I dumped every dollar back intothe business.
But you know, a lot of peoplewere like, ah, don't shoot for 5
million, you know it's too big,you're going to break it.
I would say you don't have toshoot that big, you know.
But I would not limit yourselfat all.
(37:24):
I think we overestimate what wecan get done in a day and
underestimate what we can getdone in a year.
I think you could do anything.
It sounds cheesy.
After doing what we're doing, Idon't feel like there's anything
I couldn't do.
It's like the rubber bandeffect.
(37:45):
It expanded my mind more thanmore than more than anything.
You know, your capacity isreally really wide If you just
do it.
You know, just stop thinkingabout doing the thing is not
doing it.
Planning about doing the thingis not doing it.
Doing the thing is the onlything that's really doing, you
know.
So I think anybody that'seither thinking about it or
(38:06):
maybe has done it and wants togo bigger.
It's just like dude, you gotthis, you got one life to live,
you got a certain amount of timeto do it.
Just go insane and do it, youknow.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah, Love it.
Awesome.
Ryan, really appreciate yourtime today.
I think you just you dumped awhole bunch of value on the
listeners today, so I reallyappreciate your time and for the
listeners with that.
We will see you next week.
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running and scaling a
professional painting business,from the brushes and ladders to
the spreadsheets and balancesheets.
We've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution While we strive
to provide accurate andup-to-date financial and tax
(00:20):
information, nothing you hear onthis podcast should be
considered as financial advicespecifically for you or your
business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
(00:42):
before making any significantfinancial decision.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, daniel Honan,cpa, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering your numbers and that
drive success.
So let's go ahead and dive inand make your business more
profitable, one episode at atime.
Today, I'm super excited totalk to Ryan Ezell out of
(01:07):
Tennessee.
He's running an outstandingpainting business over there and
I'm really excited to jump intohis story, so I'd like to
welcome Ryan to the podcast.
How's it going, ryan?
Good, daniel, how are you?
I'm doing well, doing well.
I'm really looking forward toour conversation today.
Could you give the listeners anidea of how you got started in
(01:29):
the painting industry and whathave been some major milestones
along the way?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yeah, sure, first off , thanks for having me on.
I think this is the mostvaluable topic out there that's
usually not discussed before orin the beginning stages of
entrepreneurship.
So we got started about 20months ago actually and I had a
(01:54):
good corporate job and you know,I just we were never getting
ahead.
Put it that way, you know, andyou know I always looked around
I've said this before.
Some people just have thatburning desire for
entrepreneurship and it's notgoing to get fulfilled unless
you act on it.
And that was very much the casefor me.
(02:17):
From when I was a little kid, Iwas spray painting numbers on
curbs and my dad would go buythings from Sam's and Costco so
I could set up on the corner,you know, and sell things.
But you know, just to make avery long story somewhat short,
you know my wife and I went on atrip and I was looking at
(02:38):
everything that, what I wouldimagine an entrepreneur had
gained over the course of hislife nice lake houses, um, you
know just a little bit more, youknow, because they took that
risk, you know, and um.
So on the way home from thislate trip, I listened, I
(02:58):
consumed everything I possiblycould about starting a painting
company and my wife was justlike, what are you listening to?
Like, you know, it's been hoursand I am just, I'm consumed.
You know, my grandfather ran apainting company for 50 years in
Nashville and he was, um, heeventually was off the brush,
(03:20):
but you know I don't think hetook it as big as it could have
been.
You know the brush, but youknow I don't think he took it as
big as it could have been.
You know, you know, back thenit was a lot about hey, how much
can you write off?
You know how much, you know,can you show zero?
And that's really what justkind of sparked like, hey, if we
were going to do something,anything, you know why not do
that?
You know, it's somewhat in myblood all my uncles and you know
(03:45):
distant cousins, and everybodywas a painter.
So my wife and I, you know, wehad a little bit of extra money,
about enough to start an LLCand we were just sitting in the
living room one day and justsaid, all right, let's just do
it, let's just try.
Uh, paint pro was available, um, so we jumped in and we
literally started the business.
(04:05):
I come from a background of ofdoor to door.
Um, so every day, when I gotoff work, I would just dive into
the neighborhood that wasclosest to my job and just knock
, I mean, until I was justexhausted, you know.
And, um, you know, looking backon it, man, it was the oh God.
(04:26):
It was just, it was the bestthing I ever could have done.
Um, you know, it was sofulfilling now looking back, but
, you know, and then my wifewould get out with me on
Saturdays, we'd hire ababysitter and go knock for
three or four hours and we wouldstack up, you know, three or
four jobs in a day.
And, um, so we did that for aslong as we possibly could until,
(04:47):
basically, I was a full-timeproject manager, full-time sales
guy and I had a full-time job.
So one day my boss found out Ihad this side job and he brought
me into his office and said,hey, man, like, look, go be an
entrepreneur, like it's, Isupport you, and so much so that
(05:10):
he let me paint his office,20,000 square foot, let me paint
his house.
Um, it was just an amazing, youknow, uh, course of events that
had happened.
And so, man, I mean, you know,once you take that step, there
is a tremendous amount of fearinvolved.
It's like we had that safetynet for so long of having this
(05:34):
salary that sustained us.
And you know, over that courseof only three months, you know,
we made great money.
We made enough money topurchase our first home.
This was additional income,right Purchase our first home,
remodel our first home.
And now it was coming to thepoint where now this is going to
provide for us, for our entirefamily, my wife and three kids.
(05:58):
And so we did it, man.
We jumped in July 4th Actuallythat was my Independence Day and
we went in.
We started full fledged and,you know, god just blessed us
every step we took.
It was just like man, okay, Ithink we can do this.
(06:18):
So that's kind of how itstarted.
(06:41):
And then milestones, man.
I mean we were hitting like$65,000, $85,000 months pretty
consistently during that time.
But as soon as I jumped into itfull time, you know put my
owner cap on it's when westarted to cross the 100,000
months barriers and the rest ofthat year, july I think we hit
about 110.
August.
It just kept going up and upand up and we didn't cross 200
that year, but we were into the185s, 189s all the way through,
(07:01):
really the most part of thatyear, even into the winter, and
then so we actually did 1.5million our first 12 months in
business, our first calendaryear, and then January, we
increased our ad spend, webrought on project managers,
(07:22):
additional sales.
That's when it started to rampup.
So we did a little over 200January, a little higher than
that in February, and then Marchwe had a monster.
We did like 408,000 in March.
And then, you know, april hadanother really strong month.
(07:45):
I think it was um, almost 400,380, something like that.
Um, so you know, it was likemilestones are like man, a
hundred thousand dollars in amonth, that's a massive
milestone.
And then your first million,that's a massive milestone, you
know.
And then now we've done, uh,we've uh, well, over one and a
(08:07):
half million just so far thisyear.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
So you're, you're on track.
For what?
2 million this year.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
No, well, you know it may have been a little lofty.
Everyone said we're actually,our goal is 5 million this year.
Um, we are, um, we are overone1.5 million.
With the strong part of theyear left, we feel, I think we
can hit $4 million.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
I'd be surprised if we didn't $4 million and this is
the second full year right.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
We haven't hit two years yet, so we're 20 months in
business.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Gotcha.
So the first year you did 1.5and this year we're looking to
hit 4 million.
Yep, okay, that's, that'samazing.
So you, you have reallyaccomplished something.
I mean, the first year you hitit out of the park 1.5 and the
first 12 months, that's amazing.
It out of the park 1.5 in thefirst 12 months, that's amazing.
(09:08):
And then to over, you know,you're projected to over double
that.
Uh, the second year, that is,that is super impressive.
And I'm sure there is a wholeton of work, uh and and
headaches that went into that.
Those uh 20 months so far, um,but I appreciate you you sharing
.
So I'd love to dig into becauseyou were initially.
(09:28):
I love the fact you weredoor-to-door initially and
you're just grinding it whileyou're doing.
You know you're workingfull-time right In your
corporate job and so you'redoing full-time work at your
corporate job.
And then you were doingdoor-to-door marketing in your
weekends and evenings, right?
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
And it sounds like you said that while you were
still working, you were doing at$1.65,000 per month, while you
were still working full-time.
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Okay, that's right.
I mean that's really impressive.
So you would do door knockingwhen you were doing 65K a month,
were you still door knockingand doing the sales and
production management and thenjust subbing out to crews, is
that?
Speaker 3 (10:22):
kind of what you were doing during that first Correct
.
Yeah, I should also say you knowpretty much the first.
Within two months of startingthe business, as soon as we
started to become profitable, wedumped the majority of our our
profits into marketing.
So then it started to pick upand instead of knocking doors
every day because we realizedthat was not sustainable for
(10:42):
very long, we started to get twoappointments a day, four
appointments a day, six, youknow.
It got to a point where as manyas we could book, we would run
so that that's super impressive.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So you were dumping money, your extra money, into
marketing to just grow it, growit, grow it.
So you had that going, didwhere were you putting?
Obviously you were doingdoor-to-door uh yourself, and it
sounded like your wife washelping you as well.
Was there anybody else helpingwith door-to-door in the
beginning?
And um, or was it just you two?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
okay, yeah, it was, and she only you know she's she
was mostly at home with our kids.
So, um, you know she went out acouple times, but just those
couple of times it was.
She's actually has a backgroundin door-to-door as well.
It's how we met actually so forus it was fun, you know.
It was like let's go out hereand not only provide for our
family, but let's get back toour roots.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, that's awesome.
That's super cool.
So are you guys still usingdoor-to-door in your company for
marketing, or have you switchedto a different channel?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah, we do.
I would say 90% is throughlead-generated appointments.
Anytime it's slow.
I tell my guys, especially oneof them.
We brought him on as adoor-to-door guy last year and I
mean he was absolutely crushingit.
He was getting five, sometimesmore, appointments a day, and so
(12:13):
anytime we're low, if theydon't have two appointments a
day minimum, we'll tell peopleto go hit around the houses that
we're painting currently andthat's in my opinion.
There's not a strongerappointment or customer
acquisition than that.
It's the strongest.
You can point and say hey,we're right here, Come walk the
job with us, see how we do it doit, you know so, you're, you're
(12:43):
um, so you have.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
You still have door-to-door in your, in your
culture.
It sounds like not only do youhave people doing it like
designated as their position,but you're even your crews, you
encourage that.
Do you guys like?
You do like a referral fee orsomething if they, if they get a
lead that turns into anestimate or something for your
crew?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Okay, I mean we do percentage, just like we do with
sales guys.
So my project manager justlanded a $13,000 job and he's
going to get 5% of that on topof his salary.
So we encourage anywhere youare, it doesn't matter.
In my opinion, you can throw arock and find an opportunity in
paint, commercial, residential,it's everywhere.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, so is 5% your typical fee for someone doing
door-to-door, or is that just aspecial situation you had with
your project manager?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, I pay him 5%.
I would pay anybody 5%.
That brought me a sale.
But our sales reps start at 7%and then my sales manager
actually makes 8% of top line.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Gotcha Okay.
So your door-to-door marketersare getting 5% of leads that
convert into sales, and thenyour salesperson gets 7%, and
then you have a sales managerthat gets 8% for managing the
sales team.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
We actually do our Door to Door.
Canvassers that are only doingDoor to Door.
They actually get $100 perappointment set.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
And there's a whole list of qualifications that come
with that.
It's not just, hey, we set thisappointment, I want name, email
, general description of scope,and then it's a hundred dollars
per appointment set and thoseare very strong appointments.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, so a hundred dollars per set appointment and
then no, no bonus for closing,or they get also a bonus for
okay.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
I want them solely focused on generating.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Okay, qualified leads , okay, got it.
And then so $100 per qualifiedset appointment, and so this is
great because a lot of folks arekind of intimidated with
door-to-door and it can be avery inexpensive customer
acquisition machine, because$100 per qualified lead, I mean
(15:03):
you might need three of those toclose the deal, so you might
spend three hundred dollars per,you know, uh, per job that you
book, which is, you know,probably five percent, like
you're saying, of like anaverage job size of six6,000.
Is that kind of what you think?
Our average?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
job size is about 7,000.
But if you think about it, if Iget a Facebook lead, I mean we
spend $15,000 a month onFacebook advertising.
So if I get a Facebook lead,it's anywhere from, let's just
say, an average of, you know,300 to 350 or something like
that.
So to your point, if I can geta hundred dollar lead, that's
(15:42):
set expecting us.
That's a great deal.
And also think about it fromthe the canvassers perspective.
Wait, so you can set 20appointments a week and make a
hundred thousand dollars a year.
You know that's an amazingopportunity for a young guy as
well which I found my firstcanvasser.
I found him in the gym.
I was like, what are you doing?
You work for me?
(16:03):
Now Come on.
And he just went out and just Ialways say like, dude, enter
that state where it's like youjust go numb, don't care what
anybody says to you.
You know, smart guys don't makemoney, right, it's the dumb
ones that are just dumb enoughto go up and knock a door.
Yeah, and it's been amazing.
(16:23):
You know, this dude made moremoney than a lot of you know
parents just out knocking doors.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, that's awesome, yeah, it's.
You don't have to be like yousaid, you don't have to be super
smart, but if you can take someabuse because door knocking it
can definitely be discouragingyou knock on a hundred doors and
not get anything for a while,but it's just a numbers game.
You gotta, you gotta, uh,bulldoze through that, and
that's awesome that you comefrom that background, so you're
(16:52):
probably able to provide somereally good training.
When I talk to folks thinkingabout door-to-door, a lot of the
times they kind of talkthemselves out of it.
They're like well, there'sneighborhoods that says no
soliciting on it and you know,or just you know, I tried it
(17:14):
once and it didn't really workfor me, kind of thing.
I feel like a lot of folks sellthemselves short on that idea of
door-to-door.
But it can be super cheap.
Like you mentioned, it'susually a lot less expensive
than Facebook ads Not to say youshouldn't run Facebook ads, but
it's just a very cheap outboundway where you can control it.
(17:35):
You can basically say if youhave a certain revenue goal, as
long as you put enough trainedfolks doing door to door, you
can hit that goal.
It's just a numbers game.
But what would you say to folksthat kind of have some
hesitation on implementing doorto door, maybe they they feel
like the neighborhoods don'tallow it or uh, do you have any
(17:59):
any thoughts on on implementingdoor to door in a in a painting
business?
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, and I mean, daniel, if you and I were being
honest, it's like um, there's,you're not going to get the easy
road for a long time.
Everything is hard Every singleday.
Everything's hard for a longtime when you start a business.
So really, if you're not opento really anything, you haven't
(18:27):
earned that right yet.
So in my opinion, if you go outand knock doors first off,
there's not a cheaper customeracquisition cost.
I know, eventually an owner'stime can be $1,500 an hour or
something like that, but you'reprobably not there yet.
So, first off, I couldn't havestarted my business without
(18:48):
going to door to door.
I don't know if you've everheard my story before, but I
walked up to a stranger's door,knocked on their door 5,000
square foot home paint lookedterrible and I had never painted
a home in my life.
I had no painters, I knewnothing, I knew less than
nothing.
Okay, I had been in businessfor two days.
Knocked on their door, the wifesaid oh, yeah, yeah, like we
(19:09):
need a painting job.
I said, okay, cool.
So I gave him a price $17,500.
They called me back the nextday and said yeah, yeah, sounds
great, let's do it.
So the other quote they got wasprobably 30,000, you know.
But and also I went to theguy's office and he said hey,
man, I looked you up.
You've only been in businessfor two days.
(19:29):
You know.
I'm like, well, you caught me,you know.
But he was an entrepreneur, hegave me the shot.
So in my opinion, dude, ifyou're in your first year of
business, you have not earnedthe right to be picky or choosy
about where you get your leads.
And if you go off and tee offI'm talking savagely, ruthlessly
(19:50):
go through and say I'm going toknock on every single door in
this neighborhood, I promise youyou're going to get sales.
It's the law of the universe.
I've knocked doors for so longand, honestly, if you're scared,
go at 530.
You're going to start seeingpeople come home.
You don't even have to knocktheir door, they're already
(20:12):
outside.
That's a good place to start,at least.
But I think anybody who takesthe risk and does it for five
days in a row, you're going toprobably book up for the next
month.
You know it's.
It's crazy how much you cangenerate from just knocking on
doors.
And then, dude, you know thedomino effect.
(20:32):
Now you have five customers.
You say, hey, can you, can youintroduce me to your neighbors
and all of a sudden you're doingthe whole neighborhood.
It's offensive to me when mysales reps don't go knock the
neighbors' doors.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, no, and it's funny too, because a lot of I
talk to painting business ownersevery day all day long.
Lot of you know I talk topainting business owners every
day, all day long and one of thethings that I'm hearing a lot
right now is oh, the economy iskind of weird this year and you
know leads are down and andstuff like that.
But you're you're kind of proofthat that the economy at large
(21:11):
doesn't really matter.
It's really the effort that youput in is what you're going to
get out of it, even if theeconomy is down.
You know your $4 millionbusiness is still a drop in the
bucket compared to the overallpaint jobs that are being sold
in your area.
You know you're you're stillyou're a large painting company
(21:32):
by comparison to the averagesize, but you know there's still
you're probably like 1% marketshare still.
You know cause there's so muchpainting being involved, like
you mentioned, like you couldthrow a rock and hit somebody
that needs a painting job.
So the the idea that becausethe economy is down and I'm
running a a million dollarbusiness, that's why my revenue
(21:55):
is down, you know that'sprobably not a good excuse.
It's probably you got to kindof take a hard look in the
mirror and at your team and say,okay, what are we not doing?
What do we need to do better to?
You know, even though the, theleads might be down on facebook
or whatever, what can weactively do to put more into it,
(22:17):
to get more out of it?
I agree completely.
No, no, this is, this is great.
And so you, you started outknocking doors and you you
started so quickly, at 1.5 inthe first year.
So I guess, what order did youstart outsourcing, getting team
(22:38):
members to help you, becausethat's a very quick growth?
So how did you?
Did you hold on to doorknocking in sales?
And then you, you gotsubcontractor crews and first
I'd imagine like how did thatwork?
How did you build your team soquickly?
What did you go for first?
What team members?
Speaker 3 (22:59):
I did it backwards, to what most people do.
The first role I hired was asales role, and it's only
because I had an, a player thatwas willing to come on board,
which is my brother-in-law.
He's an absolute stud of asales guy.
We worked together at ADT foryears and so I brought him on
board and so then I became thefull-time project manager,
(23:23):
office admin.
I was basically running theoffice.
He was doing sales.
We brought him on in the winter.
He made as much as he wasmaking you know before, but, um,
it wasn't like crazy.
Um, and then, when, summer, when, when, actually before that
January, you know, we had ourbiggest month ever up to that
(23:45):
point in January.
And then I brought on an officeadministrator and she handled
all incoming calls, all projectmanagements, well, all PTAs
prior to arrival forms, so lightcolor consultations, customer
preferences and customer colorsand stuff like that.
(24:07):
And then shortly thereafter Ihad a painter, that again very
loyal guy.
I promoted him to projectmanager.
So then we had sales officeproject manager and at this
point I mean we probably hadfive sub crews and we had
accumulated, uh, five in-houseguys.
(24:27):
So we had a bit of a hybridmodel.
And then, um, slowly we broughton another sales guy and um,
and at that point it's like whenyou have a business I know
there's people a lot bigger thanme, but when you have a large
painting company, the subs callyou.
(24:49):
You stop having to look forsubs.
They're calling you and textingyou every single day.
They see your ads and all thiskind of stuff.
And so we grew that way we haveabout 15 sub crews that we use
now and each one has theirspecialties and we use them
(25:09):
accordingly.
And then we have 12 in-housepainters, w2 guys that we use
every single week.
And it's nice because thehybrid model allows you.
You know I hate taking jobsunder $1,500.
I rarely will do it unless it'slike 12 and I know the person.
But if you deploy a one or twomain crew on a $1,500 job, it's
(25:34):
actually quite profitable.
You know it's a much higherprofitability margin than you
margin, than some jobs, and Iknow it's lower scale.
But it's good to have ourin-house guys to deploy, one or
two at a time for smaller jobs,two to three day jobs, most of
(26:06):
our sub crews.
We use the same subs everysingle week like clockwork and
they are studs.
And then we do have anadditional office
administrator's assistant nowwho handles.
Now she does all incoming callsbooks, all appointments, does
all the PTAs.
So right now we have two salesproject manager, two office
admin.
Then we have a media contentguy.
So he does, he goes to the jobsbefore, during and after,
captures content, posts dailyand then 12 in-house painters
(26:33):
that's, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
And you mentioned hiring subs, or at this point
they're.
They're calling you because youknow you get to a certain level
.
You prove that you can keepfolks busy, so they want to stay
busy.
They're calling you because youget to a certain level.
You prove that you can keepfolks busy, so they want to stay
busy, so they know who to reachout to.
Now, before you got to thatpoint, what were you doing to
find and vet subcontractor crews?
(26:57):
Because a thing that I hear alot is there's nobody out there
that wants to work.
A thing that I hear a lot isthere's nobody out there that
wants to work and I can't find.
You know, they might've bookeda lot on the sales side, but
then they have, you know, fourmonths of backlog of work that
they need to knock out toactually earn the money and they
you know they're having troublefinding good crews that that
work.
(27:17):
So do you have any?
What's your process, especiallytowards the beginning, where
you didn't have folks justreaching out to you all the time
?
Speaker 3 (27:28):
so you just talked about the pendulum, right, it's
always a pendulum either you'relow on sales and you got a
production a mile away, or yougot a production a mile away.
You can't find the enoughpeople to do it.
That middle ground, that'swhere bliss is right.
But it's very hard to find, andI had a great coach that I
(27:49):
started out with and he alwayssaid you have a weekly
production amount, right.
If you slow down past six weeks, lower your production amount
Four weeks.
Lower your production amountper week, so that you always
have four to six weeks outbooked and as soon as you start
to book out a little further, ifyou needed to, you could ramp
(28:12):
up production again.
But he taught me a great middleground which is like if we're
only booked out three weeks, I'mgoing to lower my production
that week to.
Maybe we were at 75,000production every week.
We've recently lowered it downto 50,000, so that we book back
up for that six weeks, you know.
So I would advise anybody toreally look at that model.
(28:34):
Where you're not worried abouthow much can I do in a week, you
can't.
You can't play that game, it'show long can I stay booked out.
It takes the stress off of you.
But for the subs I would like toalso clarify whether it's
customers or business ownersthat are listening to this the
only difference between asubcontractor and a W-2 employee
(28:57):
.
There's a couple of things, butwhat taxes at the end of the
day, how you file?
Some people say, well, that'snot, it's not a, it's not an
employee, so you don't havecontrol over the situation.
That's, that's not.
That's not correct.
And the reason I say that isbecause, at the end of the day,
you deal with me.
If you have a problem, you dealwith me.
(29:17):
The labor at the end of it,whether it's W-2 or 1099 subcont
, will do anything that isrequired.
And also you pay them basedupon receiving payment.
(29:49):
So they already know they'renot getting paid unless I get
paid.
So there is no oh man, I need athousand bucks to get me by.
Look, that's put me in badpositions before it's not
happening.
I get paid when you completethe job and you get paid when I
get paid.
So the way that I found my firstsub after I sold that $17,000
job, I drove around the entireafternoon and found painters
(30:13):
that were painting houses andone of them was actually
painting an entire apartmentcomplex and I found the only guy
that could communicate with meand I said get in the car, come
over here and tell me how muchyou charge me to paint this
house.
Now it's a lot different.
We immediately require okay, Ineed your, noi, I need your EIN
(30:35):
number at minimum, and that'sall.
Because the bigger you get youyou know you're the CPA.
It's like if I can't write thismoney off, I'm paying taxes on
it, right?
So at this point I have to beable to prove that I, I I wrote
you a check or deposited moneyinto your account.
(30:57):
Also, to the, the most basic wayto qualify a painter is just
ask.
The simplest question hey, sendme a couple pictures.
Depending on how many picturesthey send you is how good they
are, because they start goingthrough their Rolodex, you know,
and they're like oh man, thiswas a great one.
You know, and you can see, man,some of them aren't like
perfect pictures.
(31:18):
That's how you know they'rereal too.
You know that's a good place tostart.
And then I always start them ona small job or even my personal
house.
I'm always doing stuff aroundhere.
I'll have them come over hereand I want to see how they pull
up, what equipment they have.
That'll tell you everything youneed to know.
And you can't be emotional Ifthey pull up to a job and it
(31:40):
doesn't look right or feel rightand they're pulling, you know,
the Wagner sprayer out from HomeDepot for a hundred bucks, it's
like hang on a second, let's,let's.
We're not going to be able tomove forward, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, so no, I love it.
So it sounds like in thebeginning you were literally
kind of like how you got yourfirst lead, your door knocking
to get your crews.
You're literally driving aroundand finding people who are
already doing it and recruitingthem actively to come work for
you.
100% yeah, so that's again.
(32:15):
You were just putting in thehard work, so that's amazing.
And then you know, and youtalked about aligning incentives
so with subcontractors and ifyou have employees, you still
got to do the same thing, butwith subcontractors, you know,
you align their incentives.
You say, hey, you don't getpaid until I get paid, so you
(32:36):
got to make sure that thecustomer's happy, and so that
kind of aligns their incentives.
Like they got to make sureeverything you put in, that
sales present, that that, thatuh, that estimate, that quote
that they got, all thosepromises that you made or your
team made, is fulfilled upon bythem so that they, that your
customer pays you, so that theyget paid.
So it kind of like getseverybody on the same page,
(32:58):
regardless of how they're beingpaid, you know regardless of how
they're being paid.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
But, daniel, that was the hardest lesson that I
learned.
Because you try to bebuddy-buddy and friends and hey,
I know I'm not finishing today,I'm going to finish up Monday
Do you mind going ahead andpaying me?
You get to a point where youare broke, you have broken
yourself.
So now, just because you'retrying to be friends, these
people you know it's not justthe subs, everybody in business,
(33:26):
they are there for theirbenefit.
If you don't make yourself thepriority, you're never going to
last.
The hardest lesson I learnedwas being tough and saying I'm
sorry, I can't do it, I can't doit anymore.
You know so.
And man, people can be verypersuasive.
You know, I got to pay mypainters.
I hear it every single week oh,come on, give me this.
(33:48):
I got to pay my painters, we'regoing to finish up Monday.
It's the hardest part about thebusiness is saying I'm sorry,
thinking like a CPA, what thenumbers won't let me do that,
you know.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, yeah, you're right, it is tough, you know, to
stand that ground and a waythat it's helped me and I think
other folks is thinking it likeyou're the person responsible
for the business.
You need to keep the businessrunning so that everybody else
can benefit from the business.
(34:20):
So your customers benefit fromyour business, your employees
benefit from the business, thesubcontractors benefit from the
business.
People so your customersbenefit from your business, your
employees benefit from thebusiness, the subcontractors
benefit from the business.
So we got to keep the businessgoing because a lot of people
depend on it and if you'rebasically stealing from the
business to meet you know oneperson's you know situation,
that's not fair to everybodyelse that depends on the
(34:40):
business.
So you get it, you get it.
The business has to come firstbefore any one person's
individual need you know,because everybody else involved
with the business depends on itfor their, their paycheck or
their service.
So that that helps kind of, atleast for me and I think some
(35:01):
other folks like thinking of itthat way.
It's less about oh, what am Igoing to do in this situation.
It's really got to put thebusiness first because it
supports all these other people,all these other not only the
employees and the subcontractors, but the families of those
people as well, and yourcustomers, because they also are
relying on you to deliver aservice that you promise them.
(35:22):
So, yeah, it's definitely atough line to hold, but I think
it's definitely something that,as a business owner, it sounds
like you've definitely learnedthis, but I think a lot of folks
do need to hear that that yougot to hold the line and you got
to serve the business, becausethe business is serving
(35:42):
everybody else connected to it.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yeah, the trickle down effect is very real and if
you just start doing it on yourlevel, you'll see.
I pay this person.
They support their entirefamily, they go to the.
It's just it blows.
You know, you bless one personand it trickles down a thousand
times.
You know, and also too, justreal quick, if you don't put
your business first, who isgoing?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
to.
No one else is going to putyour business first.
Yeah, great point.
Exactly so, ryan, you've beensuper generous with your time.
I feel like we could keep goingfor like another three hours,
but I don't want to steal yourtime.
So do you have any lastthoughts for a painting business
owner out there that that wantsto grow Like like you've grown
(36:29):
so quickly over the last 20months?
Um, any any last words, wordsof advice that you could give to
somebody that's really lookingto grow their painting business
to the next level?
Speaker 3 (36:40):
uh, before we let you go today, yeah, I mean I, I had
a a a tough couple of years.
You know many years where, youknow I, I just I had a rough run
, you know.
So I had to.
I felt like I was behind a lot.
So I did some things that mostpeople probably wouldn't do.
(37:01):
I was very drastic.
I was all in.
I dumped every dollar back intothe business.
But you know, a lot of peoplewere like, ah, don't shoot for 5
million, you know it's too big,you're going to break it.
I would say you don't have toshoot that big, you know.
But I would not limit yourselfat all.
(37:24):
I think we overestimate what wecan get done in a day and
underestimate what we can getdone in a year.
I think you could do anything.
It sounds cheesy.
After doing what we're doing, Idon't feel like there's anything
I couldn't do.
It's like the rubber bandeffect.
(37:45):
It expanded my mind more thanmore than more than anything.
You know, your capacity isreally really wide If you just
do it.
You know, just stop thinkingabout doing the thing is not
doing it.
Planning about doing the thingis not doing it.
Doing the thing is the onlything that's really doing, you
know.
So I think anybody that'seither thinking about it or
(38:06):
maybe has done it and wants togo bigger.
It's just like dude, you gotthis, you got one life to live,
you got a certain amount of timeto do it.
Just go insane and do it, youknow.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah, Love it.
Awesome.
Ryan, really appreciate yourtime today.
I think you just you dumped awhole bunch of value on the
listeners today, so I reallyappreciate your time and for the
listeners with that.
We will see you next week.
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