June 20, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode, host Daniel Honan, CPA and former painting business owner, sits down with Knut Olsen, the owner of Cascade Ridge Painting in Washington. Knut shares his incredible journey from working a "boring desk job" to building a thriving painting business that’s on track to hit $600,000 in revenue this year, all in just four years!
🔹 Key Takeaways:
-How Knut transitioned from a 9-to-5 job to entrepreneurship with zero painting experience.
-The lead generation strategies that work best for his business (hint: Google LSA is a game-changer!).
-Why subcontractors have been crucial to his success, and how he manages them effectively.
-The importance of seasonal planning and budgeting for painting businesses.
-Tips for scaling your business without burning out.
Whether you're just starting your painting business or looking to take it to the next level, Knut’s story is packed with actionable insights and inspiration.
#PaintingBusiness #Entrepreneurship #SmallBusinessGrowth #ContractorLife #BusinessTips #TheProfitablePainterPodcast
On August 5th 2025, I’m hosting a free, live webinar revealing:
✅ How to pay way less in taxes—legally
✅ The simple ratio top painting businesses use to grow profits fast
✅ What the top 20% of painters are doing differently
Go to BookkeepingForPainters.com/Webinar to register now!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running and scaling a
professional painting business,from the brushes and ladders to
the spreadsheets and balancesheets.
We've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice, specifically
financial and tax information.
Nothing you hear on thispodcast should be considered as
financial advice specificallyfor you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
We strongly recommend you seeking individualized
advice before making anysignificant financial decision.
Welcome to the ProfitablePainter Podcast, the show where
painting contractors learn toboost profits, cut taxes and
build a better business.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
So let's dive in and improveyour business, one episode at a
time.
I'm super excited today to bespeaking with Knute Olson out of
(01:06):
Washington.
He has an outstanding businesscalled Cascade Ridge Painting.
Super excited to have him on.
Welcome to the podcast, Knute.
How's it going?
I'm doing great.
How are you doing, Daniel?
I'm doing well.
I'm doing well.
I'm really looking forward tothis conversation.
If you could kind of give us abackground for what brought you
(01:27):
into the painting industry,where did your journey start?
What are some of the majormilestones that you've seen
along the way?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Sure, well, again, thanks for having me on.
I'll try to just do the quickkind of elevator pitch version
of it.
But I'm currently 39 years old.
I started my painting businessat 35, so this is year four,
fourth full year, quickbackground I had zero experience
in painting or running apainting business.
I went to college, got afour-year degree, business
(01:58):
degree, and basically from thetime I graduated college, from
22 till 35, I worked, for lackof a better term, just kind of
boring desk jobs.
And I knew when I was about 30,I really had that inkling that
I wanted to be an entrepreneur,start my own small business, be
my own boss, all the benefitsthat come with that.
(02:18):
It was more figuring out whatdo I want to do in that business
role I got to what widget am Igoing to sell?
For lack of a better term.
So, yeah, I did a lot ofresearch and spent years doing
research and I landed on thatthere was good money to be made
in home service businesses,business to consumer, and so
yeah, I just kind of wassearching around the internet
(02:40):
for a few years and I fell onpainting and I had no idea that
painting businesses could makethe kind of money that they
could make and there's a highdemand for it.
And while there is a lot ofcompetition, 80 to 90% of it
isn't very professional, whichisn't good or bad, like Nick
Slavik says.
It just is what it is.
So, yeah, spent a lot ofresearch at age 34.
(03:03):
And then, when I was 35, Ifinally set my business up and
got going, basically justwatched videos on how to do this
and so, yeah, that's that'swhere I'm at now.
So this is year four.
I'm still kind of in theinfancy stages, I would say.
But that's that's where I'm atthat's where I'm at.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
That's awesome.
What, what?
So you're, as you said, you hadboring desk jobs from 22 to 35.
And it sounds like you werekind of thinking about making
the jump into entrepreneurshipfor half a decade, almost from
30 to 35.
And what was the?
Was there anything particular,something that happened?
Or was it just a growing, youknow, desire?
(03:49):
Over time, and as you researchmore and more, you just got more
confident in your ability to doit?
Or was there anything that,particularly like set, set you
off to start it?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Yeah, you know there wasn't any like anything like
that, but by the time I hit 30,I just really just didn't like
working for people anymore.
I would see things that Iwanted to do, but I had to like
go through the chain ofmanagement and people don't like
change.
I don't like change.
So it's like I just realized Ireally wanted to start my own
business and do my own thing andit was kind of for lack of a
(04:23):
better term almost soul suckingdoing the, just going to work
every day nine to five, doing adesk job, sitting at a desk and
doing that kind of work.
I just didn't get fulfillmentout of it.
Starting your own business isn'tfor everyone, but there is
something kind of neat aboutwaking up every morning and kind
of you got to go kill whatyou're going to eat that day.
You know like we as businessowners, we're not even legally
(04:45):
allowed to like haveunemployment insurance.
You know we got to cover ourown vacation pay, sick pay,
which, again, that's not foreveryone, but I love it and so I
will never go back and yeah, Ijust I love being a small
business owner.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, and I know you're, you're, you're married
with, with kids we were talkingabout it before the podcast
started.
Um, how did?
How did your family, yourespecially your wife, uh take
that Like cause?
You put it as boring desk job,but you know a lot of spouses
were like that's, that'sstability.
You know how did you?
Uh did that take someconvincing?
(05:23):
Or what was your, your spouseright on board and everything.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Yeah, she's always been very supportive.
I didn't do it like cold turkey, though.
Luckily I did it very slow.
So my first year in business Istill worked my job and kind of
did this kind of part-time justto kind of get the ground
rolling.
And every year I slowly didless hours there and more now,
(05:48):
and now I've made the transitionwhere I this is my full-time,
what I do.
I've been doing that actuallyfor a while now, but yeah, so
for anyone listening, that isjust kind of in that infancy
stage.
Even if you're not married andkids, don't just cut the head
off the snake right away.
Maybe you can do it slow.
You should be able to do maybe.
(06:10):
Okay, I'm going to take one ortwo less days a week that I work
and I'm going to focus on thebusiness and do it that way.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
So what did that look like?
You know, cause you said you'rein your fourth full year.
You started around age 35.
You're 39 now.
What did that look like interms of revenue for year one to
two to three to four, and howmuch were you working that
boring desk job and how did youkind of manage the business
(06:39):
while you were doing thatsimultaneously?
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah.
So what I kind of did wasduring the summer season I was
kind of more 50, 50, where I waskind of like half my own
business, half the W2 job, andthen in the winter times I
actually would kind of go backto more of the full-time job.
But just to give you likerevenue numbers.
So my first year well, actuallymy first year and a half in
(07:05):
business, I did all the labormyself.
I was a solo painter, dideverything myself.
So year one in business I made60K and I did every mistake in
the book.
I way underbid jobs.
I wasn't efficient, I justevery mistake you can make.
And then year two, that was theyear I decided I'm not going to
be on the tools anymore and I'mgoing to use sub crews.
(07:27):
And so year two, I did 225k.
Year three, which was last year, I did about 360.
And then my goal for this yearwas to really kind of jump all
in and I wanted to hit 500 thisyear.
And and um, I know a lot ofpeople are struggling right now
but I've been very blessed Um,I'm, I've got it kind of mapped
(07:50):
out month by month and I thinkI'm going to be probably closer
to that 600 number than 500 forthe year assuming everything
goes how it's been going.
So, um yeah, just as far asrevenue, that's.
That's where I'm sitting at.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
That's awesome.
That's getting close to almostdoubling the business from the
year three to year four.
If you hit around $600,000, youdid $360,000 in year three to
$600,000.
That's a huge jump.
So congrats to you on that.
So first year you're doingSolopreneur and, as you said,
(08:24):
you made every mistake in thebook with underpricing and all
that Learned, learned, and Ithink everyone does.
You know first year it's tough.
And the second year you broughton some sub crews so you got
off the job site so you couldfocus on the sales and
production management.
Third year continue that samemodel, right.
Yes correct, yes, correct, yes,yeah.
(08:46):
And then, fourth year is ithave you brought in like an
office manager or anything, orare you still doing?
You're doing sales andproduction management and you
have crews under you.
Is that the same structure?
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Same structure.
Yeah, I still do everythingmyself.
I'm PM, I'm sales, I answerphones, I do everything.
The only thing I don't do isjust the labor, the painting.
I have the crews do that.
But yeah, I'm still doingeverything.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, Okay, what is the primary acquisition method?
Because I mean you've had somereally strong growth, especially
from last year to this year.
How are you?
Is it all referral based, or doyou have some sort of outbound
strategy like Facebook or doorto door or something referral
based, or do you have some?
Speaker 3 (09:25):
sort of outbound strategy like Facebook or door
to door or something.
Yeah, so I got that pulled upright now.
So, out of my leads this year,it's been kind of interesting
about my number one lead source.
About 25% of my leads is fromGoogle, lsa or Google Guaranteed
.
For anyone listening, likethat's a no brainer, like those
leads don't cost very much.
They are people that aremotivated, they want to buy.
(09:45):
You usually used to be able toget refunds on them pretty easy.
I think they have an AItechnology that automatically
gives refunds, because I willget bad leads where it's just
like a telemarketer and I'lljust get refunded automatically
by Google.
I don't know what yourexperience is with other
contractors, but I can't sayenough good things about LSA.
So you like you gotta do that.
(10:06):
It costs money, but you gottado that and then.
So then yeah, and then I'm justkind of looking.
So then that's my number oneand then number two and three,
which is each about 20.
So I guess, if you combine this, as about 40% is what I call
website or Google search leads,I guess that you could kind of
say is the same thing.
So maybe that's my number onelead source, so that's majority
of them and then, yeah,everything else is just kind of
(10:28):
little things.
Here and there I got some I'monly at about 10% like the word
of mouth repeat referral.
Every year that grows and it'sjust a compound.
If you do a good job, peopleare going to refer you, and the
longer you're in business andyou get those reviews, that just
compounds.
So yeah, and the longer you'rein business and you get those
reviews, that just compounds.
So, yeah, that's the majority ofit.
And yeah, I've tinkered withthings.
I've tinkered with some directmail and EDDM stuff.
(10:51):
Last year I did my local homeshow and that's actually not too
bad, but that's only once ayear and it's just kind of a
one-time hit in the spring, butI'll get some work from that.
The lead gen sites likeThumbtack and Angie I have done
that before, but this is kind ofthe first year.
I finally just kind of cut thatoff and I just find it's not as
good as it was four years agoand then, yeah, so that's
(11:16):
basically my lead gen mix, rightthere.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Awesome.
Let me start with LSA.
So for LSA, a lot of folks thatI've spoke to are definitely
using Google LSA and just sothing that Google's come out
with in the last few years andit basically features kind of
(11:49):
local service folks.
So if you're a painter near me,you should see it come up and
folks can schedule aconsultation or free estimate or
call you directly right fromthat ad.
So it's pretty powerful interms of connecting you with
(12:09):
those people who are looking forwork to be done.
And I guess the downside of LSAis you kind of have a cap on how
much you can really spend onGoogle LSA because you're in a
certain area and there's justonly so much money you can put
into it.
But that's amazing that you'redoing that well with it.
(12:34):
Did you put a lot into SEO andinto your website?
Because I was looking at yourwebsite.
It looks pretty amazing.
I don't know if you did ityourself or you had somebody do
it, but I wonder if that is oneof the things that's helping
your SEO and for you to rank onon Google pretty well, because a
lot of leads are seem to becoming from search.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Yeah, so go to back to LSA.
You're correct with everythingyou said.
I used to do AdWords, which isa totally separate thing.
I don't do that anymore andI've heard from other painters
that they can't tell if thatactually works or not.
And especially with the waythat Google search has changed,
especially this year, wherethose LSA ads are just like boom
(13:20):
, big green right on the top ofthe search bar and it looks so
professional.
Here's your reviews.
Whereas the AdWords they kindof look like ads and they're
very expensive and it's hard totrack that, Whereas the LSA you
can track that very easy becauseit tells you right away where
that lead just came from.
So you always know you get thatlittle voice call from Google,
you know, so you know it's anLSA ad.
As far as my website, yeah, it'sso funny I had a kid Facebook
(13:45):
message me about a year ago andsaid, hey, and I get these all
the time.
Hey, I'll build your websitefor free, Just pay me whatever
you want.
I thought, okay, sure, and Ididn't website myself on Wix.
It didn't look very good, itwas okay, it made the job done.
But yeah, so, long story short,he built it for me and I saw it
and I'm like, dude, this looksgreat, Okay, I'll pay you.
(14:07):
And I gave him like 400 bucksand like I think it's awesome.
And then he also he did itthrough Wix, so like I have
control of it.
Now he just gave me the wholeyou probably know the
terminology, but I have control.
I have control over my website,which is something you'll
probably talk about.
Why you don't want to givemarketers your website?
Because you can't edit it andif they go out of business or
(14:28):
they move on to something else,then you might have problems
editing it.
But yeah, and then the thirdthing on SEO is I live in a
little bit of a smaller marketthe county.
I live about two hours north ofSeattle, Washington, and I'm
about an hour south of Vancouver, Canada.
I'm right near the Canadianborder, so obviously that's a
different country, so I can'tservice that market, Um but um,
(14:51):
my County has about 200,000people in it.
That's what I service, so it'snot real big.
But I think for SEO that helpsme, because if I hit it hard and
I hit the Google reviews hard,I got ranked really high really
fast and I'm still rankingreally good.
So that is an advantage ifyou're listening to this and
you're in a little bit of asmaller market like me.
If you can really hit the SEOand Google reviews, you can jump
(15:16):
ahead than if you live inPortland, Oregon, or you live in
Cleveland, Ohio or whatever itmight be, or you live in
Cleveland.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Ohio or whatever it might be.
So, yeah and yeah, you arecoming up on 100 Google reviews
4.9, which is pretty awesome,especially given that you've
only been in business for alittle while.
So it definitely shows.
So I think you've definitelyfigured out how to rank high.
You know Google reviews a good,good website and you've
(15:48):
dominated your area and you'rejust you're probably getting the
the majority of the traffic ofpeople wanting their house
painted.
They're probably calling you,so that's, that's awesome
another hack I did.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
I'm going to share this little secret so you may
not see this when you'researching.
But, um, this year I opened upa like a I'd call like a virtual
office, but a second location.
So I live in a city and thebiggest city in my county is
called Bellingham and it's about25 minutes away.
But I wasn't ranking inBellingham because I don't.
My headquarters aren't there,even though I work in that city
(16:19):
all the time.
So I found a guy.
I was driving through Bellinghamthis last winter when I was
slow and long story short, Ifound a guy that was looking to
rent a room in his house and Ipurposely wanted a location that
didn't have a painter near thatarea so that I'd rank there.
So I made a deal with him hey,can I have an office here and
(16:41):
I'm going to put signage up andI'll pay you 200 bucks a month.
And then I opened up a secondgoogle location there.
So I'm actually trying to get Ionly have like eight reviews
right now, so that one's juststarted, but I'm doing that to
try to rank.
And so 200 a month basicallyfor seo is what I'm doing there
(17:01):
and I think that is helpingbecause I've gotten calls on
that, so for anyone listeningthat has that scenario, um,
that's just something I'm trying, so and so far yeah, no, that,
that, that definitely, uh, is athing that folks come into
because there's definitely rules, like google has a whole bunch
(17:22):
of rules, and I am not an expertlike crazy I was like, okay, it
has to be an actual location,actual office.
You have to have signage.
So I was like I before I evendid it.
I just double checked and madesure I'm clicking every box so I
don't get deactivated right Idid all that, so be.
so I just did yeah, let's, whydon't I just do a room for rent
in an area that's kind of hascommercial buildings anyway?
(17:43):
And yeah, this guy just likeyeah, sure man.
I was like dude, you can rentyour room out.
I'm not going to go in the roomat all, I'm just.
I just need the signage and Ineed to pay you a check every
month for my virtual office andhave your address.
And he said OK, sounds good,yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, no, yeah, as long as, like you, it sounds
like you've done your research.
Google does have a bunch ofstipulations on making sure you
have access to the building, andthat is a bonafide, all that
stuff.
But yeah, that is, uh, that isa good hack to to open up or or
service a different locationwhere your home office or your
actual office is not in, so thatthat makes sense.
(18:20):
And uh, no, that that's goodstuff there.
So you're at 600 or about.
You're going to hit projected600,000 this year.
What is the kind of the nextstep for you, do you?
Because a lot of folks at thislevel, you know, when they have
sub crews and they're doing thesales, production, management
(18:43):
and even the admin work, theyoften start getting kind of
stretched, kind of thin rightaround 600,000 to a million, and
so they often, you know, bringon someone else to help them.
Do you kind of have a plan onthe way forward there?
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Well, yeah, this is something I'd love to pick your
brain about and kind of see whatother people do.
I definitely have recognizedlike, okay, if I had a PM, that
would cut my schedule probablyin half right there, and so I'm
not doing the PM work.
But yeah, no, as far as mydaily schedule, I have a pretty
dialed in out during this busyseason I only work maybe 30
(19:18):
hours a week give or take.
I always block off my morningstill about noon for just PM
admin stuff and then my dailyschedule.
I schedule my estimates everyday at noon and two those are
the two times and I try to dothem both hopefully in the same
town, so I'm not driving acrosstown for each estimate.
(19:41):
Sometimes that doesn't work out, but I try my best for that.
I don't do Saturday estimates.
I don't do Saturday estimates.
I don't do evening estimates.
I will make an exception ifit's like you know, I just
somebody like whatever, butmaybe like one or two of those a
year.
I don't do it very often andthen I try to be at two o'clock,
be done with my day after thattwo o'clock estimate and just be
(20:01):
over with.
Um, I've had the same couple subcrews now for three years and
they've been great and they'repretty autonomous where I can
just like hand them off and theydo everything.
Um, and it's funny cause thoseare the first two crews I hired
and then that first year I triedbringing on other crews and
they didn't work out at all.
So I'm like it's funny how itworks out, because I feel like
(20:23):
had it gone the other way, Imight have given up and been
like, oh, I can't use subs, this, this stinks.
But um, yeah, I know, uh, kindof rambling.
But to go back to your question,I would love to know your
thoughts because I'm thinkingokay, 600 usually they say seven
percent is about a good numberfor a pm, for an all-in number
that includes, you know, salary.
(20:45):
You got to give them probably avehicle.
You got to you know there'spayroll taxes and then it's like
, well, that's not very muchmoney for them at that point and
from what I've heard, you gotto be hitting that about that
million mark before you thinkabout the PM role to make it
kind of pencil out.
But I don't know what are yourthoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, no great question.
So a lot of folks what they'lldo is, before a full-fledged
production manager, they'll hirebasically an office person to
maybe do a few random things,maybe answer the phone.
A few random things, maybeanswer the phone, so those leads
coming in from Google LSA, sothat you can make sure you know
(21:28):
if you're an estimate or you'retied up.
They are actually, you know,answering the phone consistently
.
And then maybe you know, do anadmin work, like invoicing and
maybe helping with coordinationwith the crews no-transcript, so
(22:07):
maybe a little, you know,taking some of those tasks that
a production manager would do.
But you're still the productionmanager.
You're just kind of overseeingthe office person and giving
them some of the admin tasks,computer tasks, and they're
answering the phone, that sortof thing.
A lot of folks do that.
They're answering the phone,that sort of thing, a lot of
(22:29):
folks do that.
And you know the pay typicallyfor an admin.
You know somewhere betweenthree and 4% of revenue you can
maybe get away with.
So and it also dependsobviously on the how you know,
are they full-time versuspart-time and where you are,
where you are in your business.
So that might be something totake a look at is is an office
(22:50):
admin that can kind of take someof those computer tasks away
from you and and that, would youknow, also would probably help
with your set rates, like, ifyou know, getting your phone off
of you, because if you misseven just a couple of phone
calls a month, I mean those arethat's potentially booked work
(23:12):
that you missed and that justthat alone would help pay for
that person's wage, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yeah, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Cool, so, um, so it sounds like you have really
strong crews.
This is a challenge that a lotof folks have.
They want to use subcontractors, but then they're having to
continually find newsubcontractors because it's just
not working out withsubcontractors.
(23:43):
It sounds like you've landed ona few crews that are really
good.
What is the scope of what theydo?
Are they doing?
Obviously they're doing thepainting, but are they doing the
initial and final walkarounds?
Are they collecting the check?
Like what?
Are they getting a Googlereview?
Like what?
Where do you, where do you drawthe line with them?
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Sure, great question.
So for me, what I found is, onon the like, on an exterior, for
example, on the wash day, Iwill go there with them and the
customer and the three of uswill walk the house together and
do the pre-job walk alltogether.
I also go and buy all the paintand I deliver all the paint now
(24:28):
, which some people listening tothat will think, oh, that's
crazy.
But yeah, I always.
Just, I have to be there anywayfor the pre-job walk, so I just
bring the paint there.
I always buy all the paint.
I feel like that's I know otherpeople do it where the subs buy
the paint out of their ownpocket, but I just feel like
that's a big hit for them totake.
(24:48):
Um, and then, yeah, once wekind of walk it and then usually
the next day, what I'll do isI'll go meet them there the
first day they're kind ofstarting the work and we'll walk
it again and just go throughthe same thing, just so it's
super clear, by going through ittwice.
I have not had a mess up yet.
I have not had them paint adoor pink that was supposed to
(25:09):
be red or anything like it.
It's pretty straightforward,you know.
Um.
Same with interior too, becauseit's ceiling, walls, trim.
You know it's hard to kind ofwatch if you got through it
twice in two different days.
They should get it.
I don't even wear it at workorders anymore.
I used to do that, but I justthey.
I would just see them sittingin their vans and I was like,
are you guys even looking atthese?
They're like no, I'm like okay,well, I'm not gonna stop, I'm
(25:30):
gonna stop doing them.
Then that's that's a waste ofmy time.
And then after that it's kindof their job.
Basically I might check in oncea day.
If it's a longer job, I won'teven check in at all.
They just handle it and I tellthe customer-job walk with the
guys.
We were washing the house andthe customer pointed out some
(25:52):
nails that they wanted out ofthere and I just told the
customer hey, if you seeanything little like that, just
tell my guys.
The job's going on, they're incontrol, ask them and they can
do things like that and they'rejust happy to do it.
My guys don't see it as aburden.
So then, yeah, they handle itall and we just communicate as
(26:13):
far as supplies go.
At the end of the job I havethem do the final walk around,
because that is so hard topredict, like when they might
finish.
Sometimes they'll tell methey'll be done at noon, but
that might mean three, thatmight mean 10.
So I have them do the finalwalk around with the customer.
And, uh, I do, I collectpayments myself.
(26:34):
I don't have them handle thatat all, and I get the Google
reviews myself.
Um, so, as far as payments go,I just just invoice through
QuickBooks and, um, yeah, butthey I'm trying to do ACH mostly
, but sometimes they'll writechecks, sometimes they'll pay
with a card, but yeah, that'spretty straightforward.
You just get their email andit's not.
That's not too difficultusually.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
So, yeah, that's kind of how I handle it, and it's
pretty, pretty hands-offactually.
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like so.
This interesting you do twowalkarounds one with the client
being there, with the, with thecrews, to really make sure that
they understand exactly whatneeds to be done.
And it's funny like that, thosetwo walk arounds, actually,
(27:21):
just you don't even worry aboutthe work orders anymore, because
they don't even feel like theyneed it, because they feel like
it's pretty well ingrained inthem after going through the
house twice with you.
It's pretty well ingrained inthem after going through the
house twice with you.
And so is there any otherdocumentation, like pictures
that you're taking as well, oris it just pretty much just?
Speaker 3 (27:42):
the walkthroughs those two times?
Yeah, nothing like that.
During the estimate.
I just take one picture now ofthe house and the only reason
for that is it helps me becauseI do so many estimates and then
usually people don't sign on thespot.
Everyone usually gets a coupleof bids and they'll get back to
me and that's fine.
I totally get it.
But as I'm getting back toclients and trying to follow up,
I actually kind of forget, likewho that was, like it's in my
(28:04):
my phone, hey, follow up withthis client.
So I go through and like, ohyeah, that's that house that I
did two weeks ago.
Okay, that's right, that'sright, that's that person.
I kind of remember littlestories about what we talked
about during the estimate.
But yeah, you know, one thing Ishould do I've been trying to
do this, as I've been trying tolike, before the job starts, to
do a video walk around.
It only takes like a minute ortwo, just in case there's
(28:24):
something broken that I can geton video.
I almost never remember to doit.
I haven't been burned yet, butI'm sure I'm going to get burned
bad one time.
But no, I don't really do muchof that actually.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, I think that's a common thing that I've seen,
especially folks that are doingmultiple millions.
They actually take a picture ofany kind of damage or paint,
old paint drips, you know,before the project starts, just
in case you know you, youpainted it.
And then they're like, oh, youdrip paint everywhere.
Well, no, I didn't, that washere before.
(28:57):
Here's a time stamped uhpicture with you know the fact
that it was there before we wegot here.
So, uh, but yeah, that'sespecially for those, those
picky customers, that's that'slike a great hack.
Um, cool, so that's awesome.
You have it sounds like you havereally good sub crews which
take, take a good amount off ofoff of you not having to, you
(29:21):
know, watch over them constantly.
And it definitely shows withyour google high Google ratings,
um, and then, uh, and then wetalked about potentially
bringing on an office person ora production manager at some
point to kind of help you get tothat Cause.
That's, you're kind of gettingclose to that, um, that
(29:43):
transition point, you know thatbottleneck where it's going to
be all on you, and then havingthat office person or production
manager to help you to get tothe next, to the next level.
So that's, that's cool thatyou're already thinking about
that on how to how to tacklethat.
What are some of what are likefrom your last several years of
(30:05):
working in the business?
What's like one challenge thatyou faced.
That was that you you viewyou've viewed as like the
biggest challenge that you hadto overcome to get to where you
are now.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Um, I mean and this might be a good like thing for
everyone it's like the hardestyear in business is your first
year and then your secondhardest year is your second year
and it's a hard year, but youlook back and say that wasn't as
bad as the first year and so onand so forth.
So actually, like, every yeargets a little bit easier.
You just run into things andthen you kind of know OK, now I
(30:40):
know how to handle this in thefuture.
I've done a so much better jobof not getting too stressed out
about clients anymore.
Like I used to get so worriedwhen they would message me and
things and I, I just I do somuch work.
Now I don't worry about it asmuch.
Um, so yeah, I guess just it's.
(31:01):
It's just that like, just knowit gets easier.
It just you're really basicallyjust washing and repeating and
as you wash and repeat you addmore things on your plate.
So, like you know not to go offon too much of a tangent, but
like staining work.
I used to not do staining workCause it was like I heard it's
it can be complex, but I startedto say a no to too much
(31:22):
staining work.
So I even this year.
I'm like, let me try this out.
And even last year and thisyear now I do more stain jobs
because I I know them now andI've done them more and um.
So you can kind of like expandyour scope as you grow, keep it
simple early and just know it'sgonna.
It's gonna be really hard earlyand you're not gonna make money
(31:43):
and you're gonna be.
It's gonna be tough, but stickwith it and it'll get easier and
that's the best advice.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah yeah, yeah, for the first year.
Uh, that's always a tough one.
So many lessons to be learned.
Getting through that is really,if you keep at it.
Most people don't like.
The most most folks do notstart the business, let alone
get past the first year.
So if you get, if you, if youcould do that, then it all.
(32:10):
It's sort of downhill fromthere.
I mean, there's alwayschallenges that come up,
obviously, but, um, it isdefinitely the first year can be
pretty difficult, um, cool,well, do you have any other like
thoughts, or if, if for thelisteners, any thoughts for the
listeners on big lessons thatyou've learned that that you
(32:30):
feel like, uh, you'd like toimpart to anybody listening.
That's either running apainting business now, um, or
thinking about starting apainting business, uh, that you
wish you had known, you know,before you faced whatever
challenge any, any lessons thatyou'd like to impart?
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Yeah, I mean, obviously I talked about kind of
the stress and just taking thehard licks.
Another thing I'd like to saytoo and I did this from the
beginning and this has helped meso much is that this business
is very seasonal, and from a lotof guys that's why they quit,
because there's up to six monthsout of the year where you make
almost no money.
So what you need to do is setup goals and try to and this is
(33:14):
what I do, and I still kind ofdo this to this day, even at my
size.
I say, okay, there's going tobe six months where I make
nothing, put a zero, put a zeroand then try to make all the
other money during quarter twoand quarter three, when the, the
, the fruit is ready to beharvested, and and then when
you're in the, when you're inthe, the cold of november,
(33:37):
december, january, february it'slike, okay, well, I already had
zero here, so any jobs I'mdoing here is just gravy.
It's just like house money andthat has helped me so much with
my budgeting.
Just knowing that and justthrowing zeros on there and
realizing anything that getsgravy, and then it takes a lot
of stress off of you.
So I don't think people realizethis isn't going to be like
(33:59):
you're not going to have 12months of the same paycheck.
You just won't, no matter howbig you or small you are.
But smaller guys get it morethan the bigger guys do.
So that's another piece ofadvice I would give, for sure.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
No, that's really good.
Like, basically, if you're in aseasonal place, which most of
the United States is, basicallyplan for the second and third
quarter, that's where all yourmoney's made, and in the first
and the fourth quarter you'regoing to make nothing and use
that as a planning considerationand then that way you're
prepared for the worst, so tospeak.
(34:32):
And so if, if you end upgetting jobs in the first and
the fourth quarter, that'samazing, uh, it's just icing on
the cake, but you've alreadykind of planned okay, second and
third quarter, this is all themoney we're going to make.
Uh, so I think that's reallysmart.
Um to, to, to do that, so thatthat makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, yeah absolutely Cool, Allright.
(34:54):
Well, I really appreciate yourtime, Knute.
I think this was a reallyvaluable conversation for the
listeners.
If you'd like to join theconversation, feel free to join
the Facebook group.
Grow your Painting Business andask any questions there as well
.
But with that, we will see younext week.
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running and scaling a
professional painting business,from the brushes and ladders to
the spreadsheets and balancesheets.
We've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice, specifically
financial and tax information.
Nothing you hear on thispodcast should be considered as
financial advice specificallyfor you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
We strongly recommend you seeking individualized
advice before making anysignificant financial decision.
Welcome to the ProfitablePainter Podcast, the show where
painting contractors learn toboost profits, cut taxes and
build a better business.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
So let's dive in and improveyour business, one episode at a
time.
I'm super excited today to bespeaking with Knute Olson out of
(01:06):
Washington.
He has an outstanding businesscalled Cascade Ridge Painting.
Super excited to have him on.
Welcome to the podcast, Knute.
How's it going?
I'm doing great.
How are you doing, Daniel?
I'm doing well.
I'm doing well.
I'm really looking forward tothis conversation.
If you could kind of give us abackground for what brought you
(01:27):
into the painting industry,where did your journey start?
What are some of the majormilestones that you've seen
along the way?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Sure, well, again, thanks for having me on.
I'll try to just do the quickkind of elevator pitch version
of it.
But I'm currently 39 years old.
I started my painting businessat 35, so this is year four,
fourth full year, quickbackground I had zero experience
in painting or running apainting business.
I went to college, got afour-year degree, business
(01:58):
degree, and basically from thetime I graduated college, from
22 till 35, I worked, for lackof a better term, just kind of
boring desk jobs.
And I knew when I was about 30,I really had that inkling that
I wanted to be an entrepreneur,start my own small business, be
my own boss, all the benefitsthat come with that.
(02:18):
It was more figuring out whatdo I want to do in that business
role I got to what widget am Igoing to sell?
For lack of a better term.
So, yeah, I did a lot ofresearch and spent years doing
research and I landed on thatthere was good money to be made
in home service businesses,business to consumer, and so
yeah, I just kind of wassearching around the internet
(02:40):
for a few years and I fell onpainting and I had no idea that
painting businesses could makethe kind of money that they
could make and there's a highdemand for it.
And while there is a lot ofcompetition, 80 to 90% of it
isn't very professional, whichisn't good or bad, like Nick
Slavik says.
It just is what it is.
So, yeah, spent a lot ofresearch at age 34.
(03:03):
And then, when I was 35, Ifinally set my business up and
got going, basically justwatched videos on how to do this
and so, yeah, that's that'swhere I'm at now.
So this is year four.
I'm still kind of in theinfancy stages, I would say.
But that's that's where I'm atthat's where I'm at.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
That's awesome.
What, what?
So you're, as you said, you hadboring desk jobs from 22 to 35.
And it sounds like you werekind of thinking about making
the jump into entrepreneurshipfor half a decade, almost from
30 to 35.
And what was the?
Was there anything particular,something that happened?
Or was it just a growing, youknow, desire?
(03:49):
Over time, and as you researchmore and more, you just got more
confident in your ability to doit?
Or was there anything that,particularly like set, set you
off to start it?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Yeah, you know there wasn't any like anything like
that, but by the time I hit 30,I just really just didn't like
working for people anymore.
I would see things that Iwanted to do, but I had to like
go through the chain ofmanagement and people don't like
change.
I don't like change.
So it's like I just realized Ireally wanted to start my own
business and do my own thing andit was kind of for lack of a
(04:23):
better term almost soul suckingdoing the, just going to work
every day nine to five, doing adesk job, sitting at a desk and
doing that kind of work.
I just didn't get fulfillmentout of it.
Starting your own business isn'tfor everyone, but there is
something kind of neat aboutwaking up every morning and kind
of you got to go kill whatyou're going to eat that day.
You know like we as businessowners, we're not even legally
(04:45):
allowed to like haveunemployment insurance.
You know we got to cover ourown vacation pay, sick pay,
which, again, that's not foreveryone, but I love it and so I
will never go back and yeah, Ijust I love being a small
business owner.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, and I know you're, you're, you're married
with, with kids we were talkingabout it before the podcast
started.
Um, how did?
How did your family, yourespecially your wife, uh take
that Like cause?
You put it as boring desk job,but you know a lot of spouses
were like that's, that'sstability.
You know how did you?
Uh did that take someconvincing?
(05:23):
Or what was your, your spouseright on board and everything.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Yeah, she's always been very supportive.
I didn't do it like cold turkey, though.
Luckily I did it very slow.
So my first year in business Istill worked my job and kind of
did this kind of part-time justto kind of get the ground
rolling.
And every year I slowly didless hours there and more now,
(05:48):
and now I've made the transitionwhere I this is my full-time,
what I do.
I've been doing that actuallyfor a while now, but yeah, so
for anyone listening, that isjust kind of in that infancy
stage.
Even if you're not married andkids, don't just cut the head
off the snake right away.
Maybe you can do it slow.
You should be able to do maybe.
(06:10):
Okay, I'm going to take one ortwo less days a week that I work
and I'm going to focus on thebusiness and do it that way.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
So what did that look like?
You know, cause you said you'rein your fourth full year.
You started around age 35.
You're 39 now.
What did that look like interms of revenue for year one to
two to three to four, and howmuch were you working that
boring desk job and how did youkind of manage the business
(06:39):
while you were doing thatsimultaneously?
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah.
So what I kind of did wasduring the summer season I was
kind of more 50, 50, where I waskind of like half my own
business, half the W2 job, andthen in the winter times I
actually would kind of go backto more of the full-time job.
But just to give you likerevenue numbers.
So my first year well, actuallymy first year and a half in
(07:05):
business, I did all the labormyself.
I was a solo painter, dideverything myself.
So year one in business I made60K and I did every mistake in
the book.
I way underbid jobs.
I wasn't efficient, I justevery mistake you can make.
And then year two, that was theyear I decided I'm not going to
be on the tools anymore and I'mgoing to use sub crews.
(07:27):
And so year two, I did 225k.
Year three, which was last year, I did about 360.
And then my goal for this yearwas to really kind of jump all
in and I wanted to hit 500 thisyear.
And and um, I know a lot ofpeople are struggling right now
but I've been very blessed Um,I'm, I've got it kind of mapped
(07:50):
out month by month and I thinkI'm going to be probably closer
to that 600 number than 500 forthe year assuming everything
goes how it's been going.
So, um yeah, just as far asrevenue, that's.
That's where I'm sitting at.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
That's awesome.
That's getting close to almostdoubling the business from the
year three to year four.
If you hit around $600,000, youdid $360,000 in year three to
$600,000.
That's a huge jump.
So congrats to you on that.
So first year you're doingSolopreneur and, as you said,
(08:24):
you made every mistake in thebook with underpricing and all
that Learned, learned, and Ithink everyone does.
You know first year it's tough.
And the second year you broughton some sub crews so you got
off the job site so you couldfocus on the sales and
production management.
Third year continue that samemodel, right.
Yes correct, yes, correct, yes,yeah.
(08:46):
And then, fourth year is ithave you brought in like an
office manager or anything, orare you still doing?
You're doing sales andproduction management and you
have crews under you.
Is that the same structure?
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Same structure.
Yeah, I still do everythingmyself.
I'm PM, I'm sales, I answerphones, I do everything.
The only thing I don't do isjust the labor, the painting.
I have the crews do that.
But yeah, I'm still doingeverything.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, Okay, what is the primary acquisition method?
Because I mean you've had somereally strong growth, especially
from last year to this year.
How are you?
Is it all referral based, or doyou have some sort of outbound
strategy like Facebook or doorto door or something referral
based, or do you have some?
Speaker 3 (09:25):
sort of outbound strategy like Facebook or door
to door or something.
Yeah, so I got that pulled upright now.
So, out of my leads this year,it's been kind of interesting
about my number one lead source.
About 25% of my leads is fromGoogle, lsa or Google Guaranteed
.
For anyone listening, likethat's a no brainer, like those
leads don't cost very much.
They are people that aremotivated, they want to buy.
(09:45):
You usually used to be able toget refunds on them pretty easy.
I think they have an AItechnology that automatically
gives refunds, because I willget bad leads where it's just
like a telemarketer and I'lljust get refunded automatically
by Google.
I don't know what yourexperience is with other
contractors, but I can't sayenough good things about LSA.
So you like you gotta do that.
(10:06):
It costs money, but you gottado that and then.
So then yeah, and then I'm justkind of looking.
So then that's my number oneand then number two and three,
which is each about 20.
So I guess, if you combine this, as about 40% is what I call
website or Google search leads,I guess that you could kind of
say is the same thing.
So maybe that's my number onelead source, so that's majority
of them and then, yeah,everything else is just kind of
(10:28):
little things.
Here and there I got some I'monly at about 10% like the word
of mouth repeat referral.
Every year that grows and it'sjust a compound.
If you do a good job, peopleare going to refer you, and the
longer you're in business andyou get those reviews, that just
compounds.
So yeah, and the longer you'rein business and you get those
reviews, that just compounds.
So, yeah, that's the majority ofit.
And yeah, I've tinkered withthings.
I've tinkered with some directmail and EDDM stuff.
(10:51):
Last year I did my local homeshow and that's actually not too
bad, but that's only once ayear and it's just kind of a
one-time hit in the spring, butI'll get some work from that.
The lead gen sites likeThumbtack and Angie I have done
that before, but this is kind ofthe first year.
I finally just kind of cut thatoff and I just find it's not as
good as it was four years agoand then, yeah, so that's
(11:16):
basically my lead gen mix, rightthere.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Awesome.
Let me start with LSA.
So for LSA, a lot of folks thatI've spoke to are definitely
using Google LSA and just sothing that Google's come out
with in the last few years andit basically features kind of
(11:49):
local service folks.
So if you're a painter near me,you should see it come up and
folks can schedule aconsultation or free estimate or
call you directly right fromthat ad.
So it's pretty powerful interms of connecting you with
(12:09):
those people who are looking forwork to be done.
And I guess the downside of LSAis you kind of have a cap on how
much you can really spend onGoogle LSA because you're in a
certain area and there's justonly so much money you can put
into it.
But that's amazing that you'redoing that well with it.
(12:34):
Did you put a lot into SEO andinto your website?
Because I was looking at yourwebsite.
It looks pretty amazing.
I don't know if you did ityourself or you had somebody do
it, but I wonder if that is oneof the things that's helping
your SEO and for you to rank onon Google pretty well, because a
lot of leads are seem to becoming from search.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Yeah, so go to back to LSA.
You're correct with everythingyou said.
I used to do AdWords, which isa totally separate thing.
I don't do that anymore andI've heard from other painters
that they can't tell if thatactually works or not.
And especially with the waythat Google search has changed,
especially this year, wherethose LSA ads are just like boom
(13:20):
, big green right on the top ofthe search bar and it looks so
professional.
Here's your reviews.
Whereas the AdWords they kindof look like ads and they're
very expensive and it's hard totrack that, Whereas the LSA you
can track that very easy becauseit tells you right away where
that lead just came from.
So you always know you get thatlittle voice call from Google,
you know, so you know it's anLSA ad.
As far as my website, yeah, it'sso funny I had a kid Facebook
(13:45):
message me about a year ago andsaid, hey, and I get these all
the time.
Hey, I'll build your websitefor free, Just pay me whatever
you want.
I thought, okay, sure, and Ididn't website myself on Wix.
It didn't look very good, itwas okay, it made the job done.
But yeah, so, long story short,he built it for me and I saw it
and I'm like, dude, this looksgreat, Okay, I'll pay you.
(14:07):
And I gave him like 400 bucksand like I think it's awesome.
And then he also he did itthrough Wix, so like I have
control of it.
Now he just gave me the wholeyou probably know the
terminology, but I have control.
I have control over my website,which is something you'll
probably talk about.
Why you don't want to givemarketers your website?
Because you can't edit it andif they go out of business or
(14:28):
they move on to something else,then you might have problems
editing it.
But yeah, and then the thirdthing on SEO is I live in a
little bit of a smaller marketthe county.
I live about two hours north ofSeattle, Washington, and I'm
about an hour south of Vancouver, Canada.
I'm right near the Canadianborder, so obviously that's a
different country, so I can'tservice that market, Um but um,
(14:51):
my County has about 200,000people in it.
That's what I service, so it'snot real big.
But I think for SEO that helpsme, because if I hit it hard and
I hit the Google reviews hard,I got ranked really high really
fast and I'm still rankingreally good.
So that is an advantage ifyou're listening to this and
you're in a little bit of asmaller market like me.
If you can really hit the SEOand Google reviews, you can jump
(15:16):
ahead than if you live inPortland, Oregon, or you live in
Cleveland, Ohio or whatever itmight be, or you live in
Cleveland.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Ohio or whatever it might be.
So, yeah and yeah, you arecoming up on 100 Google reviews
4.9, which is pretty awesome,especially given that you've
only been in business for alittle while.
So it definitely shows.
So I think you've definitelyfigured out how to rank high.
You know Google reviews a good,good website and you've
(15:48):
dominated your area and you'rejust you're probably getting the
the majority of the traffic ofpeople wanting their house
painted.
They're probably calling you,so that's, that's awesome
another hack I did.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
I'm going to share this little secret so you may
not see this when you'researching.
But, um, this year I opened upa like a I'd call like a virtual
office, but a second location.
So I live in a city and thebiggest city in my county is
called Bellingham and it's about25 minutes away.
But I wasn't ranking inBellingham because I don't.
My headquarters aren't there,even though I work in that city
(16:19):
all the time.
So I found a guy.
I was driving through Bellinghamthis last winter when I was
slow and long story short, Ifound a guy that was looking to
rent a room in his house and Ipurposely wanted a location that
didn't have a painter near thatarea so that I'd rank there.
So I made a deal with him hey,can I have an office here and
(16:41):
I'm going to put signage up andI'll pay you 200 bucks a month.
And then I opened up a secondgoogle location there.
So I'm actually trying to get Ionly have like eight reviews
right now, so that one's juststarted, but I'm doing that to
try to rank.
And so 200 a month basicallyfor seo is what I'm doing there
(17:01):
and I think that is helpingbecause I've gotten calls on
that, so for anyone listeningthat has that scenario, um,
that's just something I'm trying, so and so far yeah, no, that,
that, that definitely, uh, is athing that folks come into
because there's definitely rules, like google has a whole bunch
(17:22):
of rules, and I am not an expertlike crazy I was like, okay, it
has to be an actual location,actual office.
You have to have signage.
So I was like I before I evendid it.
I just double checked and madesure I'm clicking every box so I
don't get deactivated right Idid all that, so be.
so I just did yeah, let's, whydon't I just do a room for rent
in an area that's kind of hascommercial buildings anyway?
(17:43):
And yeah, this guy just likeyeah, sure man.
I was like dude, you can rentyour room out.
I'm not going to go in the roomat all, I'm just.
I just need the signage and Ineed to pay you a check every
month for my virtual office andhave your address.
And he said OK, sounds good,yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, no, yeah, as long as, like you, it sounds
like you've done your research.
Google does have a bunch ofstipulations on making sure you
have access to the building, andthat is a bonafide, all that
stuff.
But yeah, that is, uh, that isa good hack to to open up or or
service a different locationwhere your home office or your
actual office is not in, so thatthat makes sense.
(18:20):
And uh, no, that that's goodstuff there.
So you're at 600 or about.
You're going to hit projected600,000 this year.
What is the kind of the nextstep for you, do you?
Because a lot of folks at thislevel, you know, when they have
sub crews and they're doing thesales, production, management
(18:43):
and even the admin work, theyoften start getting kind of
stretched, kind of thin rightaround 600,000 to a million, and
so they often, you know, bringon someone else to help them.
Do you kind of have a plan onthe way forward there?
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Well, yeah, this is something I'd love to pick your
brain about and kind of see whatother people do.
I definitely have recognizedlike, okay, if I had a PM, that
would cut my schedule probablyin half right there, and so I'm
not doing the PM work.
But yeah, no, as far as mydaily schedule, I have a pretty
dialed in out during this busyseason I only work maybe 30
(19:18):
hours a week give or take.
I always block off my morningstill about noon for just PM
admin stuff and then my dailyschedule.
I schedule my estimates everyday at noon and two those are
the two times and I try to dothem both hopefully in the same
town, so I'm not driving acrosstown for each estimate.
(19:41):
Sometimes that doesn't work out, but I try my best for that.
I don't do Saturday estimates.
I don't do Saturday estimates.
I don't do evening estimates.
I will make an exception ifit's like you know, I just
somebody like whatever, butmaybe like one or two of those a
year.
I don't do it very often andthen I try to be at two o'clock,
be done with my day after thattwo o'clock estimate and just be
(20:01):
over with.
Um, I've had the same couple subcrews now for three years and
they've been great and they'repretty autonomous where I can
just like hand them off and theydo everything.
Um, and it's funny cause thoseare the first two crews I hired
and then that first year I triedbringing on other crews and
they didn't work out at all.
So I'm like it's funny how itworks out, because I feel like
(20:23):
had it gone the other way, Imight have given up and been
like, oh, I can't use subs, this, this stinks.
But um, yeah, I know, uh, kindof rambling.
But to go back to your question,I would love to know your
thoughts because I'm thinkingokay, 600 usually they say seven
percent is about a good numberfor a pm, for an all-in number
that includes, you know, salary.
(20:45):
You got to give them probably avehicle.
You got to you know there'spayroll taxes and then it's like
, well, that's not very muchmoney for them at that point and
from what I've heard, you gotto be hitting that about that
million mark before you thinkabout the PM role to make it
kind of pencil out.
But I don't know what are yourthoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, no great question.
So a lot of folks what they'lldo is, before a full-fledged
production manager, they'll hirebasically an office person to
maybe do a few random things,maybe answer the phone.
A few random things, maybeanswer the phone, so those leads
coming in from Google LSA, sothat you can make sure you know
(21:28):
if you're an estimate or you'retied up.
They are actually, you know,answering the phone consistently
.
And then maybe you know, do anadmin work, like invoicing and
maybe helping with coordinationwith the crews no-transcript, so
(22:07):
maybe a little, you know,taking some of those tasks that
a production manager would do.
But you're still the productionmanager.
You're just kind of overseeingthe office person and giving
them some of the admin tasks,computer tasks, and they're
answering the phone, that sortof thing.
A lot of folks do that.
They're answering the phone,that sort of thing, a lot of
(22:29):
folks do that.
And you know the pay typicallyfor an admin.
You know somewhere betweenthree and 4% of revenue you can
maybe get away with.
So and it also dependsobviously on the how you know,
are they full-time versuspart-time and where you are,
where you are in your business.
So that might be something totake a look at is is an office
(22:50):
admin that can kind of take someof those computer tasks away
from you and and that, would youknow, also would probably help
with your set rates, like, ifyou know, getting your phone off
of you, because if you misseven just a couple of phone
calls a month, I mean those arethat's potentially booked work
(23:12):
that you missed and that justthat alone would help pay for
that person's wage, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yeah, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Cool, so, um, so it sounds like you have really
strong crews.
This is a challenge that a lotof folks have.
They want to use subcontractors, but then they're having to
continually find newsubcontractors because it's just
not working out withsubcontractors.
(23:43):
It sounds like you've landed ona few crews that are really
good.
What is the scope of what theydo?
Are they doing?
Obviously they're doing thepainting, but are they doing the
initial and final walkarounds?
Are they collecting the check?
Like what?
Are they getting a Googlereview?
Like what?
Where do you, where do you drawthe line with them?
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Sure, great question.
So for me, what I found is, onon the like, on an exterior, for
example, on the wash day, Iwill go there with them and the
customer and the three of uswill walk the house together and
do the pre-job walk alltogether.
I also go and buy all the paintand I deliver all the paint now
(24:28):
, which some people listening tothat will think, oh, that's
crazy.
But yeah, I always.
Just, I have to be there anywayfor the pre-job walk, so I just
bring the paint there.
I always buy all the paint.
I feel like that's I know otherpeople do it where the subs buy
the paint out of their ownpocket, but I just feel like
that's a big hit for them totake.
(24:48):
Um, and then, yeah, once wekind of walk it and then usually
the next day, what I'll do isI'll go meet them there the
first day they're kind ofstarting the work and we'll walk
it again and just go throughthe same thing, just so it's
super clear, by going through ittwice.
I have not had a mess up yet.
I have not had them paint adoor pink that was supposed to
(25:09):
be red or anything like it.
It's pretty straightforward,you know.
Um.
Same with interior too, becauseit's ceiling, walls, trim.
You know it's hard to kind ofwatch if you got through it
twice in two different days.
They should get it.
I don't even wear it at workorders anymore.
I used to do that, but I justthey.
I would just see them sittingin their vans and I was like,
are you guys even looking atthese?
They're like no, I'm like okay,well, I'm not gonna stop, I'm
(25:30):
gonna stop doing them.
Then that's that's a waste ofmy time.
And then after that it's kindof their job.
Basically I might check in oncea day.
If it's a longer job, I won'teven check in at all.
They just handle it and I tellthe customer-job walk with the
guys.
We were washing the house andthe customer pointed out some
(25:52):
nails that they wanted out ofthere and I just told the
customer hey, if you seeanything little like that, just
tell my guys.
The job's going on, they're incontrol, ask them and they can
do things like that and they'rejust happy to do it.
My guys don't see it as aburden.
So then, yeah, they handle itall and we just communicate as
(26:13):
far as supplies go.
At the end of the job I havethem do the final walk around,
because that is so hard topredict, like when they might
finish.
Sometimes they'll tell methey'll be done at noon, but
that might mean three, thatmight mean 10.
So I have them do the finalwalk around with the customer.
And, uh, I do, I collectpayments myself.
(26:34):
I don't have them handle thatat all, and I get the Google
reviews myself.
Um, so, as far as payments go,I just just invoice through
QuickBooks and, um, yeah, butthey I'm trying to do ACH mostly
, but sometimes they'll writechecks, sometimes they'll pay
with a card, but yeah, that'spretty straightforward.
You just get their email andit's not.
That's not too difficultusually.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
So, yeah, that's kind of how I handle it, and it's
pretty, pretty hands-offactually.
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like so.
This interesting you do twowalkarounds one with the client
being there, with the, with thecrews, to really make sure that
they understand exactly whatneeds to be done.
And it's funny like that, thosetwo walk arounds, actually,
(27:21):
just you don't even worry aboutthe work orders anymore, because
they don't even feel like theyneed it, because they feel like
it's pretty well ingrained inthem after going through the
house twice with you.
It's pretty well ingrained inthem after going through the
house twice with you.
And so is there any otherdocumentation, like pictures
that you're taking as well, oris it just pretty much just?
Speaker 3 (27:42):
the walkthroughs those two times?
Yeah, nothing like that.
During the estimate.
I just take one picture now ofthe house and the only reason
for that is it helps me becauseI do so many estimates and then
usually people don't sign on thespot.
Everyone usually gets a coupleof bids and they'll get back to
me and that's fine.
I totally get it.
But as I'm getting back toclients and trying to follow up,
I actually kind of forget, likewho that was, like it's in my
(28:04):
my phone, hey, follow up withthis client.
So I go through and like, ohyeah, that's that house that I
did two weeks ago.
Okay, that's right, that'sright, that's that person.
I kind of remember littlestories about what we talked
about during the estimate.
But yeah, you know, one thing Ishould do I've been trying to
do this, as I've been trying tolike, before the job starts, to
do a video walk around.
It only takes like a minute ortwo, just in case there's
(28:24):
something broken that I can geton video.
I almost never remember to doit.
I haven't been burned yet, butI'm sure I'm going to get burned
bad one time.
But no, I don't really do muchof that actually.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, I think that's a common thing that I've seen,
especially folks that are doingmultiple millions.
They actually take a picture ofany kind of damage or paint,
old paint drips, you know,before the project starts, just
in case you know you, youpainted it.
And then they're like, oh, youdrip paint everywhere.
Well, no, I didn't, that washere before.
(28:57):
Here's a time stamped uhpicture with you know the fact
that it was there before we wegot here.
So, uh, but yeah, that'sespecially for those, those
picky customers, that's that'slike a great hack.
Um, cool, so that's awesome.
You have it sounds like you havereally good sub crews which
take, take a good amount off ofoff of you not having to, you
(29:21):
know, watch over them constantly.
And it definitely shows withyour google high Google ratings,
um, and then, uh, and then wetalked about potentially
bringing on an office person ora production manager at some
point to kind of help you get tothat Cause.
That's, you're kind of gettingclose to that, um, that
(29:43):
transition point, you know thatbottleneck where it's going to
be all on you, and then havingthat office person or production
manager to help you to get tothe next, to the next level.
So that's, that's cool thatyou're already thinking about
that on how to how to tacklethat.
What are some of what are likefrom your last several years of
(30:05):
working in the business?
What's like one challenge thatyou faced.
That was that you you viewyou've viewed as like the
biggest challenge that you hadto overcome to get to where you
are now.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Um, I mean and this might be a good like thing for
everyone it's like the hardestyear in business is your first
year and then your secondhardest year is your second year
and it's a hard year, but youlook back and say that wasn't as
bad as the first year and so onand so forth.
So actually, like, every yeargets a little bit easier.
You just run into things andthen you kind of know OK, now I
(30:40):
know how to handle this in thefuture.
I've done a so much better jobof not getting too stressed out
about clients anymore.
Like I used to get so worriedwhen they would message me and
things and I, I just I do somuch work.
Now I don't worry about it asmuch.
Um, so yeah, I guess just it's.
(31:01):
It's just that like, just knowit gets easier.
It just you're really basicallyjust washing and repeating and
as you wash and repeat you addmore things on your plate.
So, like you know not to go offon too much of a tangent, but
like staining work.
I used to not do staining workCause it was like I heard it's
it can be complex, but I startedto say a no to too much
(31:22):
staining work.
So I even this year.
I'm like, let me try this out.
And even last year and thisyear now I do more stain jobs
because I I know them now andI've done them more and um.
So you can kind of like expandyour scope as you grow, keep it
simple early and just know it'sgonna.
It's gonna be really hard earlyand you're not gonna make money
(31:43):
and you're gonna be.
It's gonna be tough, but stickwith it and it'll get easier and
that's the best advice.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah yeah, yeah, for the first year.
Uh, that's always a tough one.
So many lessons to be learned.
Getting through that is really,if you keep at it.
Most people don't like.
The most most folks do notstart the business, let alone
get past the first year.
So if you get, if you, if youcould do that, then it all.
(32:10):
It's sort of downhill fromthere.
I mean, there's alwayschallenges that come up,
obviously, but, um, it isdefinitely the first year can be
pretty difficult, um, cool,well, do you have any other like
thoughts, or if, if for thelisteners, any thoughts for the
listeners on big lessons thatyou've learned that that you
(32:30):
feel like, uh, you'd like toimpart to anybody listening.
That's either running apainting business now, um, or
thinking about starting apainting business, uh, that you
wish you had known, you know,before you faced whatever
challenge any, any lessons thatyou'd like to impart?
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Yeah, I mean, obviously I talked about kind of
the stress and just taking thehard licks.
Another thing I'd like to saytoo and I did this from the
beginning and this has helped meso much is that this business
is very seasonal, and from a lotof guys that's why they quit,
because there's up to six monthsout of the year where you make
almost no money.
So what you need to do is setup goals and try to and this is
(33:14):
what I do, and I still kind ofdo this to this day, even at my
size.
I say, okay, there's going tobe six months where I make
nothing, put a zero, put a zeroand then try to make all the
other money during quarter twoand quarter three, when the, the
, the fruit is ready to beharvested, and and then when
you're in the, when you're inthe, the cold of november,
(33:37):
december, january, february it'slike, okay, well, I already had
zero here, so any jobs I'mdoing here is just gravy.
It's just like house money andthat has helped me so much with
my budgeting.
Just knowing that and justthrowing zeros on there and
realizing anything that getsgravy, and then it takes a lot
of stress off of you.
So I don't think people realizethis isn't going to be like
(33:59):
you're not going to have 12months of the same paycheck.
You just won't, no matter howbig you or small you are.
But smaller guys get it morethan the bigger guys do.
So that's another piece ofadvice I would give, for sure.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
No, that's really good.
Like, basically, if you're in aseasonal place, which most of
the United States is, basicallyplan for the second and third
quarter, that's where all yourmoney's made, and in the first
and the fourth quarter you'regoing to make nothing and use
that as a planning considerationand then that way you're
prepared for the worst, so tospeak.
(34:32):
And so if, if you end upgetting jobs in the first and
the fourth quarter, that'samazing, uh, it's just icing on
the cake, but you've alreadykind of planned okay, second and
third quarter, this is all themoney we're going to make.
Uh, so I think that's reallysmart.
Um to, to, to do that, so thatthat makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, yeah absolutely Cool, Allright.
(34:54):
Well, I really appreciate yourtime, Knute.
I think this was a reallyvaluable conversation for the
listeners.
If you'd like to join theconversation, feel free to join
the Facebook group.
Grow your Painting Business andask any questions there as well
.
But with that, we will see younext week.
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