July 25, 2025 • 34 mins
In this value-packed episode, host Daniel Honan sits down with Zane Zeman went from crunching numbers in corporate finance to running a 38-year-old painting business, and he did it with just 5% down. In this episode, we break down:
✅ Why he BOUGHT instead of starting from scratch (hint: it’s riskier than you think).
✅ The wild SBA loan process, how he got financing with ZERO industry experience.
✅ The biggest challenges of taking over a legacy biz (subcontractor mutiny? Almost.).
✅ Scaling secrets, why his digital marketing crashed & burned (and what’s working now).
If you’ve ever wondered what it takes to acquire (not build) a business, this one’s for you.
FREE WEBINAR ALERT: Want to stop overpaying in taxes? Join our free webinar: “Making More Money and Saving on Taxes: Bookkeeping for Painters” happening August 5th. Save your spot here: https://bookkeepingforpainters.com/Webinar
#BusinessAcquisition #PaintingBusiness #Entrepreneurship #SBALoans #SmallBusinessGrowth
For being a loyal listener, I want to send you a copy of my new book Profitable Painter. Inside, I’ll show you the exact frameworks that have helped painting businesses save big on taxes, increase profits, and scale with confidence
Head over to profitablepaintercpa.com/book and grab your copy today. Don’t wait — this is my gift to you for being part of the Profitable Painter community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, daniel Honan,cpa and former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering your numbers that
drive success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable, one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited today to talkto Zane Zeman.
(00:24):
Welcome to the podcast, zane.
Hey, thanks for having me.
Daniel, now you have a reallyfascinating story.
I think a lot of people aregoing to get a ton out of this
episode.
Super excited to jump intothings.
So could you kind of give folksan idea of where you got
started in the painting industryand what have been some major
milestones so far?
(00:45):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
So, as you know, a little bit of a unique
background, not a painter.
Historically I come from acorporate finance background.
I'm originally from Florida andmoved out to Colorado about
four years ago, back in 2021.
I was working remotely at mycorporate finance job and, you
(01:13):
know, got to the point whereworking remotely was at once the
best thing in my life and thenquickly became the worst thing.
I was just working alone in myoffice, living alone and really
not feeling fulfilled about whatI was doing.
So started to explore kind ofalternative options and that's
what led me to Cody Sanchez andher entrepreneurship group,
(01:37):
which is called ContrarianThinking, which teaches people
how to become owners throughacquisition, so buying small
businesses.
So I took a business buyingcourse.
I started evaluating deals andeventually stumbled upon a local
painting company here in Denver, colorado, where the seller was
getting ready to retire.
(01:58):
We went through the acquisitionprocess and it's been about 15
months now since I acquired thecompany, so past my one year
mark as an owner operator andeverything's been going pretty
well.
It's a totally different worldthan the corporate life, but
(02:18):
definitely loving it and woulddo it again.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, that's a pretty unique story and it seems to be
something that's happening moreoften now.
There's a ton of acquisitions,or at least the quantity of
acquisitions seem to be going upfrom my perspective the last
few years, and I think it'sprobably a combination of
(02:42):
factors.
But I know private equity isinterested in the trades and
painting businesses.
There just seems to be moreinterest in acquiring companies
and combining them, and I thinka lot of folks are.
But the idea of buying paintingbusinesses to grow or like to
(03:06):
start a company or to grow yourown current company, it seems
pretty intimidating to mostfolks.
So what?
Like how did you get to thatplace where you're like, yeah,
let me, let me go out and justbuy a painting business?
Like what?
What was the the driving factorthere?
I know you.
You were trying to get out ofthe corporate finance world.
(03:27):
Why?
Why buy instead of just startyour own business?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I really just didn't have theappetite to start something from
scratch.
I didn't want to go from acomfortable cushiony salary to
nothing for a period of time.
A comfortable cushiony salaryto nothing for a period of time.
I think some people would lookat me and say I'm incredibly
risky for buying a business.
But to me that was the morerisk adverse thing to do is to
(03:54):
buy something that's currentlycash flowing.
So, and yeah, around it isbecoming more sexy to buy
businesses and acquire and getin that way.
And I think two things there is.
It's the the boomers that aregetting ready to retire and
don't necessarily have theirkids don't want to take on a
(04:14):
trades business.
So there's there's that piece.
And then there's also theeducation piece.
There's the Hormoses and theCody Sanchez's of the world that
are educating people on thatopportunity.
So people are just finding outthat that's an option and you
don't have to start from groundzero.
You could start with somethingthat's already cash flowing.
So that's kind of why I lean tothat direction.
(04:35):
I don't want to start fromscratch and go through that the
growing pains.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and that also with
the boomer generation retiringand you know, because these days
they get their degree in, youknow, social studies or whatever
, and they don't want to dotrade, they don't want to work
with their hands.
So now there's probably a bunchof opportunity to buy a bunch
(05:01):
of businesses.
So that's, uh, I think that'sreally insightful and, um,
there's probably a lot, a lotmore opportunity out there, I
would imagine, for for folks tobuy their competitors as well.
And uh, could you, could youtalk a little bit about the
process of buying a paintingbusiness, because I'm sure that
(05:21):
was a tough experience.
What?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
was that like, yeah, it was a tough experience.
So, from start to finish, Ithink it took around five or six
months to actually close thedeal, and I definitely couldn't
have done it on my own.
I was lucky enough to haveinvested in this community,
(05:48):
which gave me the support andresources I needed to feel
comfortable and confident to gothrough that process.
So, just understanding what youneed as far as, like, your deal
team so your attorneys, yourCPAs, your business brokers if
you want to get a quantitativeanalysis on the deal there's all
(06:09):
these people involved in thetransaction.
So first it's like figuring outwhat your deal box is kind of
what you're looking for, whatyou can afford, kind of what you
just have an appetite for andthen it's building out that team
to help you go through theprocess.
And for me, what really helpedthe process go smoothly and a
(06:33):
lot of people in this space, theETA space, spend years
analyzing hundreds of deals,looking for that kind of diamond
in the rough.
I was not that way at all.
I was eager to jump in, and sothis is actually one of the
first deals I analyzed and whatreally helped me go over the
(06:54):
finish line was just therelationship that I established
with the seller.
He was a really good guy, highintegrity, individual, and you
could see it in his business andhis relationship with his crews
and his customers.
So being able to build thattrust throughout the process
definitely helped things gosmoothly.
And, you know, david never felthostile or like someone was
(07:17):
trying to take advantage ofsomeone else.
It was just like an amicabletransaction.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, so it sounds like you built a good amount of
trust with them.
So I'm sure that I would guessI'd make that process, that
transition process, a lot easierwhen you actually trust the
person you're buying it from.
So there's no like hiddensecrets that you don't know
about and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, even with that, it'sstill an incredibly like
challenging and stressful andscary situation, like if you, if
you've ever purchased a home,just imagine that times 10, it's
like you talk about signingyour life away.
When you get financing from theSBA and you know you're really
(08:02):
you're really signing your lifeaway and it's just a long, long
process.
So it was pretty intense but itwas made better because of that
relationship and trust that wehad established and the
transparency with the financialsand kind of the whole story
there.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, that's, that's definitely true, and I think
with the so it sounded like youpurchased the business with the
help of the SBA loan.
What was that process like?
Was that a you know and that isa common tactic like using an
SBA loan to purchase anotherbusiness?
I've seen that many times.
(08:41):
How did that process go?
Was that like a pretty easyprocess or was that pretty
difficult?
You compared it to getting amortgage.
Was it like that, except onsteroids?
Like, how did that?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
work.
Yeah, it's definitely like thaton steroids, because you know
you're coming up with a businessplan, you're providing your
personal P&L for everything, allthe assets you own, and then
some SBA lenders might qualifyyou, others might not.
(09:15):
So it's a lot more intricateand I'd say it's a little bit
more subjective.
It's not just a standardizedprocess.
(09:38):
It's like the relationship withthe lender comes into factor,
whether they deem you able torun industry experience and
trained in the trades or runninga business at all.
Really they could have justturned me away strictly for that
, but because I was able to kindof apply some of the things I
did in the past on my resume andyou know, make that showcase my
(10:00):
abilities to do this, eventhough I didn't have the
background, I was able toestablish those relationships
with the lenders.
So it's definitely a little bitmore subjective and the just
the paperwork, the timeline.
It takes a lot longer.
It's a lot, just a lot moredocumentation.
So it's pretty intense andthere's a lot of different deal
(10:21):
structures and creativefinancing options.
So for me I I paid 5% for thedeal, I got an SBA loan for 75%
and did seller financing on theother 20%.
But there's a million differentways you could do that and
that's just the way I structured.
My deal worked out well for me.
Only 5% out of pocket.
(10:42):
It's pretty, yeah, pretty smallcash investment to get into a
cash flowing business I mean,yeah, that's, that's, that's
pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Like, uh, five percent down, the bank took care
of 75, and then the the personyou were buying it from actually
financed the other 25 and so,uh, that's's pretty, that's a
pretty good deal.
So you didn't have a lot ofoutgoing cash.
And then you get, get into thebusiness and it's, you know
(11:13):
already you have there'scustomers, you know has a good
amount of revenue and profit, soyou step in and basically use
that money to pay, pay back the,uh, the interest on the SBA
loan, and also the, the sellertheir, their piece as well.
So, um, that makes a lot ofsense.
Uh, so you, you complete thetransaction, you go through this
(11:38):
process of buying the businessand this business is very
established.
You know it's been around wasit like three decades at this
point or something like that?
Yep, 38 years.
Okay, so pretty well establishedbusiness and you, like you
mentioned, you don't have a tonof, well, no, experience in the
trades up to this point and then.
(12:00):
So I feel like you would have apretty good size learning curve
.
How did you go about tacklingthat?
Because that's, you're doing alot of firsts here, like for
business first, running apainting business for the first
time.
So that seems like just a hugeamount of learning to do in such
a short amount of time.
How did you, how did you tacklethat?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, no doubt it's been a huge learning curve.
I would say the two biggestthings one which was totally
unexpected, but as I startedgoing through the acquisition
process, I started looking upjust resources about the
industry and stumbled upon somereally good painting podcasts.
(12:46):
So I was just listening topainting podcasts in my car for
a couple months before I closedthe business and, as you know,
there's a million coaches outthere in the painting industry.
So getting the knowledge andinformation you need is pretty
easily accessible to run apainting business.
So I started off there, startedgetting a lot of information
(13:07):
from different podcasts, andthen part of the contract with
the seller was that he wouldstay on and help me transition
for three months.
So I had hands-on training fromthe previous owner for three
months.
It turned out I only used themfor about a month and a half
before I said, all right, let mejust run with this, I need to
start doing things my own way.
(13:28):
But I had him to learn from andI still have him to ask
questions to whenever and he'salways available for me.
So those are the two big thingsthat kind of helped me in that
massive learning curve help mein that massive learning curve.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, that's huge no-transcript what you're good
at from from my perspective andyou can correct me, maybe you're
not good at this but findingthe right people to learn from,
and like quickly learning andand finding the right
communities, because you youfound this community for
purchasing businesses.
(14:08):
You leveraged that learnquickly, purchased a business
didn't know the paintingindustry, found people that did
learn from them, and then youknow, now you're trying to scale
to the next level, so you'refinding the right people to
learn from.
So it seems like a theme withyou is like find people who know
(14:30):
how to do it already and thenjust learn from them.
I'm pretty spot on with thatobservation, daniel.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I would not consider myself exceptionally smart.
I don't think I'm like thehighest IQ individual.
In general, I think mysuperpower is getting myself in
the right rooms where I'mtypically on the lower end of
the talent and expertise.
So I'm constantly able to learnfrom people who are smarter
(14:56):
than me and kind of just taketheir experience and learn from
it and run with it.
So that's kind of what I'vebeen doing and it's been working
for me.
So I'm going to keep doing that.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah Well, I think you sell yourself short on the
not being intelligent.
Doing that in and of itselfshows that you are intelligent,
but uh, no, I think that's anlike an amazing way to go about
it.
it's just there's that sayingtry to be the dumbest person in
the room yeah basically try tobasically associate yourself
with smarter people than thanyourself so you can learn from
(15:32):
them, which makes a lot of sense, uh, so, so okay, you're, you
took over business.
You're learning from the owner.
He's training you on how to runthe business.
What are some of the challengesthat you faced?
Purchasing this business,coming in after 38 years of it
(15:53):
being run by somebody else andyou're the new kid on the block,
like?
What are some of the challengesthat you faced over the past
year or so?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
yeah, I mean, let's like there's been a few
instances where my lack ofexperience has just kind of
thrown people off.
Like we started off with eightpretty reliable subcontract
crews.
Two of those relationshipsdidn't stick.
(16:26):
One of the guys, I think, justit just didn't sit with him just
getting jobs from someone withlittle to no experience.
But I was able to maintain theother six and we all have great
relationships and they're happyand I mean so I think that all
(16:46):
in all is a pretty good turnout.
As far as retention with thesubcontractors.
And then when it comes to one ofthe things I did last year to
kind of introduce myself to ourpast customer list in the
community was I sent out a flyer.
It was a picture of me and theprevious owner and I was
introducing myself and it wasthe seller kind of giving a
(17:09):
paragraph on his final wordssaying goodbye to his customers
and thanking him and everything.
So it was like a kind ofsentimental heartfelt letter and
thanking them and everything.
So it was like a kind ofsentimental heartfelt letter.
So when I would go to jobsafter that for any of the repeat
and referral customers, theykind of knew who I was and we
could have that conversation.
They're like oh, you're the guywho bought the business from
Kevin and I don't think it wasthat much of like a barrier as
(17:37):
far as them being able to trustme to still provide a good
quality paint job and service.
But there is that level of justhaving to kind of fake it till
you make it Like I don't knoweverything about paint or
exteriors of homes.
So you know I could speak to asmuch as I know.
So you know I could speak to asmuch a factor.
(18:16):
But overall, not a ton ofchallenges due to the experience
discrepancy.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Any other.
So it sounds like you're ableto basically again leverage your
team for any gaps that youmight have on the technical
knowledge of the paintingindustry and you've won over the
vast majority of yoursubcontractors.
And I know you have set yoursights on some aggressive goals
(18:52):
for scaling.
Do you have an approach thatyou're taking, that you're
implementing to to grow thebusiness to the next level?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah.
So we had some big, lofty goalsfor 2025.
I don't, I don't think I'mgoing to quite meet them.
I still see growth year overyear, but I don't necessarily
see the the extreme growth thatI had hoped for.
Being that it's a 38-year-oldcompany, there hasn't
(19:24):
historically been a hugepresence of digital marketing,
so that was kind of what I washoping would be that lever to
turn to generate additionalleads.
I haven't had a lot of goodluck with marketing agencies
generating good quality leadsand I'm on my third agency in my
first 15 months, so not a greatexperience there so far.
(19:49):
But that was kind of I wasleaning on that, I think a
little too heavy as far asgetting me to the next level.
So where I'm heading now isreally honing in on those past
(20:13):
relationships, the historicalcustomer base, fromors, the
property managers, thoserelationships who have been
pretty consistent, and justnurturing those a little bit
more.
(20:38):
The digital space but not seeingmuch results kind of resulting
to the email marketing, thephone calling, the print mail
and that stuff.
And then I mean, besidesgetting leads in the door, it's
just building out the team right.
So I just hired my firstproject consultant and he's
great, he has industryexperience so he could talk the
talk even better than I can,which is awesome and he can.
(21:00):
He has experience atSherwin-Williams and another
painting company, so he kind ofbrings in that next level of
expertise as far asunderstanding what a project
needs to be successful and howthe crew is going to tackle it.
So that helps with pricing andthen that'll help us sell more
jobs and then you know, as thoseleads generate through our new
(21:21):
marketing channels, then him andI will both be running sales
for the foreseen future.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Okay so for so it sound like you initially.
Your initial goal was to blowthe business up with social
media like meta ads, and itdidn't work out as as hoped.
And it's a weird thing like uh,actually, just just a couple
(21:47):
months ago was speaking to asomeone else from denver.
He, um, he had gone throughseveral marketing agencies and
they cannot get anything goingfor whatever reason.
And he's in the Denver area aswell, coincidentally.
So I don't know if it's aDenver thing, but Apparently
(22:09):
it's super competitive andchallenging.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, and he just started getting traction
recently and I think from what Italked to him last month and it
was really basically picturesof his family like him and his
daughter and his wife orsomething like those started
gaining traction on his Facebookads and so he finally cracked
(22:36):
it.
It was like over a year of ofit not working and him switching
between agencies.
But yeah, it's just like one ofthose weird things with social
media Sometimes, depending onyour market, it like doesn't
work and then for some reason,that starts working.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
So so definitely like faces, and that video content
and personable aspect I thinkmakes a big difference and you
could see that in the results ofcertain ads.
And that's one thing I'm alsogoing to be working on over the
next few months is kind ofbuilding more of a personal
brand, so posting on socialmedia more regularly, taking
(23:13):
more video content and that typeof thing.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, it's.
It's huge nowadays for forbusiness owners to be social
media savvy, which I don't.
I personally, I suck at it, butit's I'm envious of the people
that are naturally good at that.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yeah, I'm not great at it either, so that's why I'm
hiring someone to helpfacilitate posting and the
content scripting and that typeof thing exactly get people who
are good at it and then havethem help you with it.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
It's another uh common theme there.
So, uh, so you're.
It sounds like you're shiftingfocus from social media uh, well
, still trying to do it,tracking the code there but, um,
mostly working with referralpartners is kind of the strategy
to to grow, moving forward, um,and, and then you just made
(24:11):
that a key hire there with your,your first uh project manager.
It sounds like right, yeah,project consultant, so sales.
Oh, project consultant, I'msorry.
Okay, so sales side.
Yeah, so do you already have aproject manager?
I don't have a project manager.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
but it's a little bit different for our business.
I think a lot of people wouldsay hire the project manager
first, because oursubcontractors have a
relationship with my company forso long.
They historically and are usedto managing their projects
themselves.
So most of these crewsdepending on the complexity of
(24:56):
the job, I'm fully comfortablesending them to do the initial
walkthrough and the finalwalkthrough with the customer.
So I'm super lucky to have thatyeah, no, that's awesome.
Yeah, so not as urgent of ahire and one of the lead foremen
on one of the crews.
I could definitely see myselfbringing him into that full-time
(25:16):
project manager role in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Nice.
Yeah, that's a good place to be, where you get really reliable
subs that can do their ownwalkarounds collecting the check
, and so it buys you extra timeon having to hire a production
manager and maybe even just getaway with having, like, an
office person just doing somescheduling and not having to get
(25:39):
a project manager.
So that's awesome, and then so,and then you just hired your,
uh, the sales person.
Um, uh, what did you look for?
So they were pretty.
It sounds like they've alreadydone the job.
Again, you found somebody who'salready done the thing and you
just have them do it for you.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
That same thing we keep seeing over and over again
A little bit different therebecause he doesn't actually have
a sales background but he doeshave the painting experience so
he could talk product.
He was a project manager for acouple of years so he
understands how projects go andwhat they need so he can
(26:20):
definitely talk the talk.
He just doesn't have salesexperience and if you looked at
a disk profile he's notnecessarily the ideal sales
personality either.
But neither am I, so I don'tjudge against it and I think
he'll do great.
What's his disc profile?
(26:41):
I believe it's a SC and like aCS.
For what is it?
The natural and the adaptive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it's like SC and CS.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
So he's conscientious , so he'll make sure that those
estimates are precisely done forit.
So the subcontractors willprobably be very happy with him
because he will ensure thatthere's enough budget for the
projects.
So that's a plus for at leastgenerally for that, that type of
(27:16):
person.
And then so cause that's oftenlike a friction point is we get
your salesperson If they'reusually cause?
You alluded to this, but likesalespeople are more I, more
influencing yeah.
D yeah Driven, yeah Influinfluencing, yeah, d yeah,
driven, yeah, influential, yeah,yes, and so, and that can be
(27:43):
great, especially forresidential repaint, because you
have so much volume.
If you have a driven personthat wants to, just, you know,
influence a lot of people, thatcan be an ideal situation from
like, maybe a sales perspective.
But the the friction is usually, or often, if you, if you don't
have controls on that person,they'll end up maybe under
(28:05):
bidding to close more jobs orsomething like that and not
being as precise on the handoffto the production side.
So things get missed becausethey're not focused on the
details, they're notconscientious.
So, uh, was that a deliberate?
It's not like do you, did youpre-screen for with a disc
profile before you hired?
Is that how you?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I actually did his disc profile after I already um
gave him an offer.
Okay, yeah, I just wanted tohave it during onboarding, so we
could one so I could understandour how our relationship should
go a little bit better.
And then two, he could utilizeit himself and use it against
some of the sales training thatwe have.
(28:47):
One being a contractor freedomwith Jason Phillips and he uses
a lot of the disk profile in hisprocess so he could kind of
relate his personality todifferent customer personalities
yeah, that's so in the, that'sit.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
That's an interesting idea there.
So actually I don't.
Well, so taking his personalityprofile of CS or SC and
relating it to the differenttypes of profiles of who he'll
be selling to so he can properlysell them, I guess on the
(29:28):
service, that's like a, that's apretty cool idea.
Am I getting that right?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
yeah, one and one of the things and the sales
training is talking about likematching your customers, like
energy and personality and likecommunication style, so like
they're super upbeat and excited, you just you try to match that
.
If they're like a little timid,you slow it down for them and
just kind of getting on an equalplaying field helps a lot when
(29:58):
it comes to sales.
Sure, there's some objectionhandling that needs to be done
just to make sure we are fullyanswering all the questions and
concerns of the customer.
(30:19):
But there's something I heardrecently about how do you want
to purchase as a purchaser and Idon't want to make a $10,000
decision with someone standingin front of me, so why am I
going to try to force that uponsomeone else?
So try to just, you know, buildthat relationship, answer as
(30:39):
many questions, provide all theoptions available and like make
sure that we can establish thattrust and show that we are
reliable and going to provide aquality job with our past
projects and our reviews and ourtestimonials.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I think I agree with you there.
And you mentioned Alex Ramosi.
I think he said something tothe effect of you're not like,
you're not trying to get them tobuy, you're trying to get them,
you're trying to help them makea decision.
So, if you just like reframe itthat way, whether it's yes or
no, just you're giving to helpthem make a decision.
So if you just like reframe itthat way, whether it's yes or no
(31:20):
, just you're giving them thetools, information to help them
make a decision.
Whether it's yeah, let's signup or no, I'm going with someone
else so that you can, you're,you're, you're servicing.
So that shift like that helpedme.
It was like, yeah, I'm justhelping them make a decision and
instead of like I'm trying toget them to sign, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yeah, and you know best case scenario.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
You're helping them make a decision that they're
happy about.
Exactly.
That's great, cool.
Well, I really appreciate yourtime today, zane.
Like this is a superinteresting story.
I think a lot of folks aregoing to get a ton of value out
of this conversation withpurchasing a business, what to
look for, what that processlooks like, going into a new
business, some of the challengesthere and some of the things
(32:07):
that you face trying to grow thebusiness.
I think this has been a greatepisode.
Um, I'd like to open it up toyou for any asks of the audience
.
Uh, or anything you'd like tosay, uh, before we wrap things
up today.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Cool, yeah, thanks, daniel.
I appreciate you having me.
Um, like I mentioned in thepodcast, looking to build my
social media presence, my brand.
I'm also open to answering anyquestions.
If anyone wants to reach out,feel free.
You can find me on Facebook,instagram first and last name,
zane Zeman, and then my businessInstagram page,
AmericanpaintingspecialistsAwesome.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
All right, I appreciate it.
Zane, Really appreciate theconversation and with the
listeners.
We will see you next week.
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, daniel Honan,cpa and former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering your numbers that
drive success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable, one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited today to talkto Zane Zeman.
(00:24):
Welcome to the podcast, zane.
Hey, thanks for having me.
Daniel, now you have a reallyfascinating story.
I think a lot of people aregoing to get a ton out of this
episode.
Super excited to jump intothings.
So could you kind of give folksan idea of where you got
started in the painting industryand what have been some major
milestones so far?
(00:45):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
So, as you know, a little bit of a unique
background, not a painter.
Historically I come from acorporate finance background.
I'm originally from Florida andmoved out to Colorado about
four years ago, back in 2021.
I was working remotely at mycorporate finance job and, you
(01:13):
know, got to the point whereworking remotely was at once the
best thing in my life and thenquickly became the worst thing.
I was just working alone in myoffice, living alone and really
not feeling fulfilled about whatI was doing.
So started to explore kind ofalternative options and that's
what led me to Cody Sanchez andher entrepreneurship group,
(01:37):
which is called ContrarianThinking, which teaches people
how to become owners throughacquisition, so buying small
businesses.
So I took a business buyingcourse.
I started evaluating deals andeventually stumbled upon a local
painting company here in Denver, colorado, where the seller was
getting ready to retire.
(01:58):
We went through the acquisitionprocess and it's been about 15
months now since I acquired thecompany, so past my one year
mark as an owner operator andeverything's been going pretty
well.
It's a totally different worldthan the corporate life, but
(02:18):
definitely loving it and woulddo it again.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, that's a pretty unique story and it seems to be
something that's happening moreoften now.
There's a ton of acquisitions,or at least the quantity of
acquisitions seem to be going upfrom my perspective the last
few years, and I think it'sprobably a combination of
(02:42):
factors.
But I know private equity isinterested in the trades and
painting businesses.
There just seems to be moreinterest in acquiring companies
and combining them, and I thinka lot of folks are.
But the idea of buying paintingbusinesses to grow or like to
(03:06):
start a company or to grow yourown current company, it seems
pretty intimidating to mostfolks.
So what?
Like how did you get to thatplace where you're like, yeah,
let me, let me go out and justbuy a painting business?
Like what?
What was the the driving factorthere?
I know you.
You were trying to get out ofthe corporate finance world.
(03:27):
Why?
Why buy instead of just startyour own business?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I really just didn't have theappetite to start something from
scratch.
I didn't want to go from acomfortable cushiony salary to
nothing for a period of time.
A comfortable cushiony salaryto nothing for a period of time.
I think some people would lookat me and say I'm incredibly
risky for buying a business.
But to me that was the morerisk adverse thing to do is to
(03:54):
buy something that's currentlycash flowing.
So, and yeah, around it isbecoming more sexy to buy
businesses and acquire and getin that way.
And I think two things there is.
It's the the boomers that aregetting ready to retire and
don't necessarily have theirkids don't want to take on a
(04:14):
trades business.
So there's there's that piece.
And then there's also theeducation piece.
There's the Hormoses and theCody Sanchez's of the world that
are educating people on thatopportunity.
So people are just finding outthat that's an option and you
don't have to start from groundzero.
You could start with somethingthat's already cash flowing.
So that's kind of why I lean tothat direction.
(04:35):
I don't want to start fromscratch and go through that the
growing pains.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and that also with
the boomer generation retiringand you know, because these days
they get their degree in, youknow, social studies or whatever
, and they don't want to dotrade, they don't want to work
with their hands.
So now there's probably a bunchof opportunity to buy a bunch
(05:01):
of businesses.
So that's, uh, I think that'sreally insightful and, um,
there's probably a lot, a lotmore opportunity out there, I
would imagine, for for folks tobuy their competitors as well.
And uh, could you, could youtalk a little bit about the
process of buying a paintingbusiness, because I'm sure that
(05:21):
was a tough experience.
What?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
was that like, yeah, it was a tough experience.
So, from start to finish, Ithink it took around five or six
months to actually close thedeal, and I definitely couldn't
have done it on my own.
I was lucky enough to haveinvested in this community,
(05:48):
which gave me the support andresources I needed to feel
comfortable and confident to gothrough that process.
So, just understanding what youneed as far as, like, your deal
team so your attorneys, yourCPAs, your business brokers if
you want to get a quantitativeanalysis on the deal there's all
(06:09):
these people involved in thetransaction.
So first it's like figuring outwhat your deal box is kind of
what you're looking for, whatyou can afford, kind of what you
just have an appetite for andthen it's building out that team
to help you go through theprocess.
And for me, what really helpedthe process go smoothly and a
(06:33):
lot of people in this space, theETA space, spend years
analyzing hundreds of deals,looking for that kind of diamond
in the rough.
I was not that way at all.
I was eager to jump in, and sothis is actually one of the
first deals I analyzed and whatreally helped me go over the
(06:54):
finish line was just therelationship that I established
with the seller.
He was a really good guy, highintegrity, individual, and you
could see it in his business andhis relationship with his crews
and his customers.
So being able to build thattrust throughout the process
definitely helped things gosmoothly.
And, you know, david never felthostile or like someone was
(07:17):
trying to take advantage ofsomeone else.
It was just like an amicabletransaction.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, so it sounds like you built a good amount of
trust with them.
So I'm sure that I would guessI'd make that process, that
transition process, a lot easierwhen you actually trust the
person you're buying it from.
So there's no like hiddensecrets that you don't know
about and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, even with that, it'sstill an incredibly like
challenging and stressful andscary situation, like if you, if
you've ever purchased a home,just imagine that times 10, it's
like you talk about signingyour life away.
When you get financing from theSBA and you know you're really
(08:02):
you're really signing your lifeaway and it's just a long, long
process.
So it was pretty intense but itwas made better because of that
relationship and trust that wehad established and the
transparency with the financialsand kind of the whole story
there.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, that's, that's definitely true, and I think
with the so it sounded like youpurchased the business with the
help of the SBA loan.
What was that process like?
Was that a you know and that isa common tactic like using an
SBA loan to purchase anotherbusiness?
I've seen that many times.
(08:41):
How did that process go?
Was that like a pretty easyprocess or was that pretty
difficult?
You compared it to getting amortgage.
Was it like that, except onsteroids?
Like, how did that?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
work.
Yeah, it's definitely like thaton steroids, because you know
you're coming up with a businessplan, you're providing your
personal P&L for everything, allthe assets you own, and then
some SBA lenders might qualifyyou, others might not.
(09:15):
So it's a lot more intricateand I'd say it's a little bit
more subjective.
It's not just a standardizedprocess.
(09:38):
It's like the relationship withthe lender comes into factor,
whether they deem you able torun industry experience and
trained in the trades or runninga business at all.
Really they could have justturned me away strictly for that
, but because I was able to kindof apply some of the things I
did in the past on my resume andyou know, make that showcase my
(10:00):
abilities to do this, eventhough I didn't have the
background, I was able toestablish those relationships
with the lenders.
So it's definitely a little bitmore subjective and the just
the paperwork, the timeline.
It takes a lot longer.
It's a lot, just a lot moredocumentation.
So it's pretty intense andthere's a lot of different deal
(10:21):
structures and creativefinancing options.
So for me I I paid 5% for thedeal, I got an SBA loan for 75%
and did seller financing on theother 20%.
But there's a million differentways you could do that and
that's just the way I structured.
My deal worked out well for me.
Only 5% out of pocket.
(10:42):
It's pretty, yeah, pretty smallcash investment to get into a
cash flowing business I mean,yeah, that's, that's, that's
pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Like, uh, five percent down, the bank took care
of 75, and then the the personyou were buying it from actually
financed the other 25 and so,uh, that's's pretty, that's a
pretty good deal.
So you didn't have a lot ofoutgoing cash.
And then you get, get into thebusiness and it's, you know
(11:13):
already you have there'scustomers, you know has a good
amount of revenue and profit, soyou step in and basically use
that money to pay, pay back the,uh, the interest on the SBA
loan, and also the, the sellertheir, their piece as well.
So, um, that makes a lot ofsense.
Uh, so you, you complete thetransaction, you go through this
(11:38):
process of buying the businessand this business is very
established.
You know it's been around wasit like three decades at this
point or something like that?
Yep, 38 years.
Okay, so pretty well establishedbusiness and you, like you
mentioned, you don't have a tonof, well, no, experience in the
trades up to this point and then.
(12:00):
So I feel like you would have apretty good size learning curve
.
How did you go about tacklingthat?
Because that's, you're doing alot of firsts here, like for
business first, running apainting business for the first
time.
So that seems like just a hugeamount of learning to do in such
a short amount of time.
How did you, how did you tacklethat?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, no doubt it's been a huge learning curve.
I would say the two biggestthings one which was totally
unexpected, but as I startedgoing through the acquisition
process, I started looking upjust resources about the
industry and stumbled upon somereally good painting podcasts.
(12:46):
So I was just listening topainting podcasts in my car for
a couple months before I closedthe business and, as you know,
there's a million coaches outthere in the painting industry.
So getting the knowledge andinformation you need is pretty
easily accessible to run apainting business.
So I started off there, startedgetting a lot of information
(13:07):
from different podcasts, andthen part of the contract with
the seller was that he wouldstay on and help me transition
for three months.
So I had hands-on training fromthe previous owner for three
months.
It turned out I only used themfor about a month and a half
before I said, all right, let mejust run with this, I need to
start doing things my own way.
(13:28):
But I had him to learn from andI still have him to ask
questions to whenever and he'salways available for me.
So those are the two big thingsthat kind of helped me in that
massive learning curve help mein that massive learning curve.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, that's huge no-transcript what you're good
at from from my perspective andyou can correct me, maybe you're
not good at this but findingthe right people to learn from,
and like quickly learning andand finding the right
communities, because you youfound this community for
purchasing businesses.
(14:08):
You leveraged that learnquickly, purchased a business
didn't know the paintingindustry, found people that did
learn from them, and then youknow, now you're trying to scale
to the next level, so you'refinding the right people to
learn from.
So it seems like a theme withyou is like find people who know
(14:30):
how to do it already and thenjust learn from them.
I'm pretty spot on with thatobservation, daniel.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I would not consider myself exceptionally smart.
I don't think I'm like thehighest IQ individual.
In general, I think mysuperpower is getting myself in
the right rooms where I'mtypically on the lower end of
the talent and expertise.
So I'm constantly able to learnfrom people who are smarter
(14:56):
than me and kind of just taketheir experience and learn from
it and run with it.
So that's kind of what I'vebeen doing and it's been working
for me.
So I'm going to keep doing that.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah Well, I think you sell yourself short on the
not being intelligent.
Doing that in and of itselfshows that you are intelligent,
but uh, no, I think that's anlike an amazing way to go about
it.
it's just there's that sayingtry to be the dumbest person in
the room yeah basically try tobasically associate yourself
with smarter people than thanyourself so you can learn from
(15:32):
them, which makes a lot of sense, uh, so, so okay, you're, you
took over business.
You're learning from the owner.
He's training you on how to runthe business.
What are some of the challengesthat you faced?
Purchasing this business,coming in after 38 years of it
(15:53):
being run by somebody else andyou're the new kid on the block,
like?
What are some of the challengesthat you faced over the past
year or so?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
yeah, I mean, let's like there's been a few
instances where my lack ofexperience has just kind of
thrown people off.
Like we started off with eightpretty reliable subcontract
crews.
Two of those relationshipsdidn't stick.
(16:26):
One of the guys, I think, justit just didn't sit with him just
getting jobs from someone withlittle to no experience.
But I was able to maintain theother six and we all have great
relationships and they're happyand I mean so I think that all
(16:46):
in all is a pretty good turnout.
As far as retention with thesubcontractors.
And then when it comes to one ofthe things I did last year to
kind of introduce myself to ourpast customer list in the
community was I sent out a flyer.
It was a picture of me and theprevious owner and I was
introducing myself and it wasthe seller kind of giving a
(17:09):
paragraph on his final wordssaying goodbye to his customers
and thanking him and everything.
So it was like a kind ofsentimental heartfelt letter and
thanking them and everything.
So it was like a kind ofsentimental heartfelt letter.
So when I would go to jobsafter that for any of the repeat
and referral customers, theykind of knew who I was and we
could have that conversation.
They're like oh, you're the guywho bought the business from
Kevin and I don't think it wasthat much of like a barrier as
(17:37):
far as them being able to trustme to still provide a good
quality paint job and service.
But there is that level of justhaving to kind of fake it till
you make it Like I don't knoweverything about paint or
exteriors of homes.
So you know I could speak to asmuch as I know.
So you know I could speak to asmuch a factor.
(18:16):
But overall, not a ton ofchallenges due to the experience
discrepancy.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Any other.
So it sounds like you're ableto basically again leverage your
team for any gaps that youmight have on the technical
knowledge of the paintingindustry and you've won over the
vast majority of yoursubcontractors.
And I know you have set yoursights on some aggressive goals
(18:52):
for scaling.
Do you have an approach thatyou're taking, that you're
implementing to to grow thebusiness to the next level?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah.
So we had some big, lofty goalsfor 2025.
I don't, I don't think I'mgoing to quite meet them.
I still see growth year overyear, but I don't necessarily
see the the extreme growth thatI had hoped for.
Being that it's a 38-year-oldcompany, there hasn't
(19:24):
historically been a hugepresence of digital marketing,
so that was kind of what I washoping would be that lever to
turn to generate additionalleads.
I haven't had a lot of goodluck with marketing agencies
generating good quality leadsand I'm on my third agency in my
first 15 months, so not a greatexperience there so far.
(19:49):
But that was kind of I wasleaning on that, I think a
little too heavy as far asgetting me to the next level.
So where I'm heading now isreally honing in on those past
(20:13):
relationships, the historicalcustomer base, fromors, the
property managers, thoserelationships who have been
pretty consistent, and justnurturing those a little bit
more.
(20:38):
The digital space but not seeingmuch results kind of resulting
to the email marketing, thephone calling, the print mail
and that stuff.
And then I mean, besidesgetting leads in the door, it's
just building out the team right.
So I just hired my firstproject consultant and he's
great, he has industryexperience so he could talk the
talk even better than I can,which is awesome and he can.
(21:00):
He has experience atSherwin-Williams and another
painting company, so he kind ofbrings in that next level of
expertise as far asunderstanding what a project
needs to be successful and howthe crew is going to tackle it.
So that helps with pricing andthen that'll help us sell more
jobs and then you know, as thoseleads generate through our new
(21:21):
marketing channels, then him andI will both be running sales
for the foreseen future.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Okay so for so it sound like you initially.
Your initial goal was to blowthe business up with social
media like meta ads, and itdidn't work out as as hoped.
And it's a weird thing like uh,actually, just just a couple
(21:47):
months ago was speaking to asomeone else from denver.
He, um, he had gone throughseveral marketing agencies and
they cannot get anything goingfor whatever reason.
And he's in the Denver area aswell, coincidentally.
So I don't know if it's aDenver thing, but Apparently
(22:09):
it's super competitive andchallenging.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, and he just started getting traction
recently and I think from what Italked to him last month and it
was really basically picturesof his family like him and his
daughter and his wife orsomething like those started
gaining traction on his Facebookads and so he finally cracked
(22:36):
it.
It was like over a year of ofit not working and him switching
between agencies.
But yeah, it's just like one ofthose weird things with social
media Sometimes, depending onyour market, it like doesn't
work and then for some reason,that starts working.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
So so definitely like faces, and that video content
and personable aspect I thinkmakes a big difference and you
could see that in the results ofcertain ads.
And that's one thing I'm alsogoing to be working on over the
next few months is kind ofbuilding more of a personal
brand, so posting on socialmedia more regularly, taking
(23:13):
more video content and that typeof thing.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, it's.
It's huge nowadays for forbusiness owners to be social
media savvy, which I don't.
I personally, I suck at it, butit's I'm envious of the people
that are naturally good at that.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yeah, I'm not great at it either, so that's why I'm
hiring someone to helpfacilitate posting and the
content scripting and that typeof thing exactly get people who
are good at it and then havethem help you with it.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
It's another uh common theme there.
So, uh, so you're.
It sounds like you're shiftingfocus from social media uh, well
, still trying to do it,tracking the code there but, um,
mostly working with referralpartners is kind of the strategy
to to grow, moving forward, um,and, and then you just made
(24:11):
that a key hire there with your,your first uh project manager.
It sounds like right, yeah,project consultant, so sales.
Oh, project consultant, I'msorry.
Okay, so sales side.
Yeah, so do you already have aproject manager?
I don't have a project manager.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
but it's a little bit different for our business.
I think a lot of people wouldsay hire the project manager
first, because oursubcontractors have a
relationship with my company forso long.
They historically and are usedto managing their projects
themselves.
So most of these crewsdepending on the complexity of
(24:56):
the job, I'm fully comfortablesending them to do the initial
walkthrough and the finalwalkthrough with the customer.
So I'm super lucky to have thatyeah, no, that's awesome.
Yeah, so not as urgent of ahire and one of the lead foremen
on one of the crews.
I could definitely see myselfbringing him into that full-time
(25:16):
project manager role in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Nice.
Yeah, that's a good place to be, where you get really reliable
subs that can do their ownwalkarounds collecting the check
, and so it buys you extra timeon having to hire a production
manager and maybe even just getaway with having, like, an
office person just doing somescheduling and not having to get
(25:39):
a project manager.
So that's awesome, and then so,and then you just hired your,
uh, the sales person.
Um, uh, what did you look for?
So they were pretty.
It sounds like they've alreadydone the job.
Again, you found somebody who'salready done the thing and you
just have them do it for you.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
That same thing we keep seeing over and over again
A little bit different therebecause he doesn't actually have
a sales background but he doeshave the painting experience so
he could talk product.
He was a project manager for acouple of years so he
understands how projects go andwhat they need so he can
(26:20):
definitely talk the talk.
He just doesn't have salesexperience and if you looked at
a disk profile he's notnecessarily the ideal sales
personality either.
But neither am I, so I don'tjudge against it and I think
he'll do great.
What's his disc profile?
(26:41):
I believe it's a SC and like aCS.
For what is it?
The natural and the adaptive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it's like SC and CS.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
So he's conscientious , so he'll make sure that those
estimates are precisely done forit.
So the subcontractors willprobably be very happy with him
because he will ensure thatthere's enough budget for the
projects.
So that's a plus for at leastgenerally for that, that type of
(27:16):
person.
And then so cause that's oftenlike a friction point is we get
your salesperson If they'reusually cause?
You alluded to this, but likesalespeople are more I, more
influencing yeah.
D yeah Driven, yeah Influinfluencing, yeah, d yeah,
driven, yeah, influential, yeah,yes, and so, and that can be
(27:43):
great, especially forresidential repaint, because you
have so much volume.
If you have a driven personthat wants to, just, you know,
influence a lot of people, thatcan be an ideal situation from
like, maybe a sales perspective.
But the the friction is usually, or often, if you, if you don't
have controls on that person,they'll end up maybe under
(28:05):
bidding to close more jobs orsomething like that and not
being as precise on the handoffto the production side.
So things get missed becausethey're not focused on the
details, they're notconscientious.
So, uh, was that a deliberate?
It's not like do you, did youpre-screen for with a disc
profile before you hired?
Is that how you?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I actually did his disc profile after I already um
gave him an offer.
Okay, yeah, I just wanted tohave it during onboarding, so we
could one so I could understandour how our relationship should
go a little bit better.
And then two, he could utilizeit himself and use it against
some of the sales training thatwe have.
(28:47):
One being a contractor freedomwith Jason Phillips and he uses
a lot of the disk profile in hisprocess so he could kind of
relate his personality todifferent customer personalities
yeah, that's so in the, that'sit.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
That's an interesting idea there.
So actually I don't.
Well, so taking his personalityprofile of CS or SC and
relating it to the differenttypes of profiles of who he'll
be selling to so he can properlysell them, I guess on the
(29:28):
service, that's like a, that's apretty cool idea.
Am I getting that right?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
yeah, one and one of the things and the sales
training is talking about likematching your customers, like
energy and personality and likecommunication style, so like
they're super upbeat and excited, you just you try to match that
.
If they're like a little timid,you slow it down for them and
just kind of getting on an equalplaying field helps a lot when
(29:58):
it comes to sales.
Sure, there's some objectionhandling that needs to be done
just to make sure we are fullyanswering all the questions and
concerns of the customer.
(30:19):
But there's something I heardrecently about how do you want
to purchase as a purchaser and Idon't want to make a $10,000
decision with someone standingin front of me, so why am I
going to try to force that uponsomeone else?
So try to just, you know, buildthat relationship, answer as
(30:39):
many questions, provide all theoptions available and like make
sure that we can establish thattrust and show that we are
reliable and going to provide aquality job with our past
projects and our reviews and ourtestimonials.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I think I agree with you there.
And you mentioned Alex Ramosi.
I think he said something tothe effect of you're not like,
you're not trying to get them tobuy, you're trying to get them,
you're trying to help them makea decision.
So, if you just like reframe itthat way, whether it's yes or
no, just you're giving to helpthem make a decision.
So if you just like reframe itthat way, whether it's yes or no
(31:20):
, just you're giving them thetools, information to help them
make a decision.
Whether it's yeah, let's signup or no, I'm going with someone
else so that you can, you're,you're, you're servicing.
So that shift like that helpedme.
It was like, yeah, I'm justhelping them make a decision and
instead of like I'm trying toget them to sign, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yeah, and you know best case scenario.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
You're helping them make a decision that they're
happy about.
Exactly.
That's great, cool.
Well, I really appreciate yourtime today, zane.
Like this is a superinteresting story.
I think a lot of folks aregoing to get a ton of value out
of this conversation withpurchasing a business, what to
look for, what that processlooks like, going into a new
business, some of the challengesthere and some of the things
(32:07):
that you face trying to grow thebusiness.
I think this has been a greatepisode.
Um, I'd like to open it up toyou for any asks of the audience
.
Uh, or anything you'd like tosay, uh, before we wrap things
up today.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Cool, yeah, thanks, daniel.
I appreciate you having me.
Um, like I mentioned in thepodcast, looking to build my
social media presence, my brand.
I'm also open to answering anyquestions.
If anyone wants to reach out,feel free.
You can find me on Facebook,instagram first and last name,
zane Zeman, and then my businessInstagram page,
AmericanpaintingspecialistsAwesome.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
All right, I appreciate it.
Zane, Really appreciate theconversation and with the
listeners.
We will see you next week.
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