June 13, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode, host Daniel Honan (CPA and former painting business owner) sits down with Patrick from Patrick’s Painting in Northern Virginia. Patrick shares his incredible journey from starting with just a paintbrush and a contractor’s license to building a multi-million-dollar painting business.
Key Takeaways:
- How quitting drinking and focusing on productivity helped Patrick grow from $600K to $2.6M in revenue.
- The importance of hiring coaches (business, financial, and fitness) to accelerate growth and avoid costly mistakes.
- Why project management was his biggest bottleneck and how he solved it by delegating and systematizing processes.
- The role of continuous learning, mastermind groups (like PCA and BK Live), and implementing knowledge to drive success.
- Patrick’s advice on building a business that doesn’t rely solely on you, scaling through leadership and team development.
On August 5th 2025, I’m hosting a free, live webinar revealing:
✅ How to pay way less in taxes—legally
✅ The simple ratio top painting businesses use to grow profits fast
✅ What the top 20% of painters are doing differently
Go to BookkeepingForPainters.com/Webinar to register now!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running and scaling a
professional painting business,from the brushes and ladders to
the spreadsheets and balancesheets.
We've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice specifically
for you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
before making any significantfinancial decision.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA and former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering your numbers that
drive success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable, one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited today tospeak with Patrick from
(01:06):
Patrick's Painting up inNorthern Virginia.
He's an amazing business owner.
I've known him for years, soI'm super excited to have a
conversation with him and diveinto what has made him
successful.
Welcome to the podcast, Patrick.
How's it going?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Good.
Thank you so much for having meon today, Daniel.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I'm super excited to jump in.
Could you kind of give thelisteners like what's been your
journey big picture.
Where did you get started, howdid you get started into the
painting industry and what havebeen some major milestones since
then?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Yeah, absolutely Well , I would say.
When I first started, there wasno vision.
There was just like I had apaintbrush and a contractor's
license and I'm like, all right,I'm going to do this legally.
I don't know for how long, butI'm just going to get started
with it.
But I started fresh out of highschool.
I had a business partner for alittle bit.
(02:00):
We quickly ended ourrelationship and I kind of just
ran with it.
I was in 2007 and still reallyunsure what I was going to do
with it.
Like I said, I got my businesslicense, I got my insurance and
I wanted to be legal if Iactually was going to do it.
But I realized, or so I wasdoing three things I was
(02:25):
painting, I was boxing and I wasgoing to college.
Well, one of them had to go andcollege went, so I was doing
business administration and thebusiness administration got put
on the back burner and I startedfocusing on boxing, which I
ended up having 24 amateurfights, one professional fight.
(02:45):
So it was a fun time betweenrunning the business and boxing.
But fast forward to 2014,.
That's where a big milestonehappened for me.
I went to my first PCA eventPCA event, it event.
(03:06):
I was somewhere South Carolina,charleston, south Carolina
that's where it was.
It's actually 11 years ago andfantastic.
That really opened up manydoors for me.
I realized there was lots ofother painting contractors
within the group.
They were sharing their successstories.
They were sharing their secretson how they're dealing with
(03:28):
customers, how they're doingwith production, how they're
dealing with how to do theactual work, and from there I
just continued to grow,implement, fast forward to end
of 2018, when I decided to quitdrinking.
That's a big one for me.
(03:48):
That's when real growth startedto happen.
I was doing about $600,000 ayear Up to that point.
For the last couple of years,when I quit drinking, I
immediately took it to 1.1million.
Following year 1.5, to 1.1million following year 1.5, next
(04:13):
year, 1.8, 2.1, and then rightnow we've been doing about 2.2,
2.6.
We're trying to hit three thisyear.
So it's been a really goodgrowth.
But but once I eliminated thebullshit, to be honest with you,
I was realizing where I waswasting my time, where I was
wasting my time, what I wasdoing, and a couple of books
(04:35):
came into it that helped me makethis transition, which was
first Alcohol Explained, justunderstanding how alcohol
affects me personally and howmuch it really was disrupting my
sleep.
So that was one of the bigreasons why I quit drinking.
I was also tired of being tired, and I wasn't an everyday
drinker, I was more like yourweekend warrior.
(04:57):
But why would I just sleep fornine to 10 hours and then wake
up still feeling groggy, stillfeeling tired, like it didn't
make any sense?
So alcohol affects your sleeptremendously.
And then I listened to DavidGoggins' book Can't Hurt Me.
He talks about the 40% rule.
Most people are only giving 40%of themselves, which.
(05:17):
I took a hard look in themirror and I was like all right,
were you leaving this extratime on the table?
Realizing you're spending a lotof time watching TV, browsing
social media, browsing theInternet and just not using my
time product productively to beable to increase my skill level.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So I buckled down, started working a little bit
harder and this is where I'm atnow and continuing to evolve
every year and just reallytrying to live up to my
God-given potential.
Yeah, that's amazing with youis that you're, you're always
trying to learn.
You're, you're going to thosepieces.
You're always at a PCA eventI'll see you there.
You're going to additionalevents outside of PCA to just
learn as a business owner oreven just improve your life
(06:12):
generally, and you're readingbooks, um, consuming content,
like that's like a uh, how much,how much of that learning that.
I guess you're, you're, youknow're craving that education,
but not only just educatingyourself, but you're also
implementing.
How much of that is responsiblefor the success that you've
(06:35):
seen, going from just no visionout of high school running a
paint business with your buddy,to now running a $3 million
painting business with a hugestaff that works with you.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Yeah, I mean, knowledge is everything.
I'm gaining a ton of knowledgefrom the books, from the podcast
, but just consistentlylistening to people that I say
that are smarter than me,listening to very deep, mindful,
strategic conversations aboutstuff, and some of the stuff I'm
(07:11):
picking up I'm putting it intoplay in my personal life or my
professional life and, at thesame time, not just listening to
it but also what's helping iscoaching.
Coaching is absolutely beenhuge.
You have to pay for the adviceof others to get you forward
faster.
So the coaching standpoint I'vegot a financial coach, I've got
(07:35):
a business coach, I've got apersonal trainer.
You need these differentcoaches and aspects of your life
to help you move forward faster.
And, yes, you do have to payfor it.
And I would say you pay fortheir experiences so you don't
have to make those same mistakesyourself.
So, coaching and justcontinuing to listen to this
(07:56):
audiobooks, podcasts and alsocoaching events.
I just went out to Californiafor BK Live.
I've been a part of that group.
I joined the Legacy Tribe atthe beginning of 2025, which is
a group of individuals.
(08:17):
We meet every month online.
We have a new speaker everyweek, but every month it's a
different subject.
One month it's personalbranding, the next month it's
communication skills, one monthit's sales.
So every month we have somebodyelse or a different subject,
but every week we have adifferent speaker talking about
(08:37):
something new.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, that's really cool.
And going back to the coachingthing, like you have, it sounds
like you have a financial coach,a business coach and a fitness
coach.
Did I get them all?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Okay, so some folks are listening, probably like man
, this guy needs a coach forevery part of his life.
That might seem like a lot ofcoaches for some folks and I
know for a while I was kind ofvery hesitant to pay for you
know someone else to tell mewhat they think I should do, and
I don't know if you were atthat point in your life at all.
(09:14):
But what would you say tosomebody who was like man, you
got to pay for all thosedifferent support people?
Like, was there a time or amoment in your life where you
realized like, oh, this istotally worth it?
What changed there?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
was there a time in my life where I was like this is
totally worth it, absolutely,absolutely.
It's just just realizing howmuch faster you can get.
You can get with yourselfpersonally or professionally by
hiring that coach right that?
Hiring the coaches?
They're going to tell youexactly what you need to do.
But I always talk about closingthe knowledge and action gap,
(09:55):
right?
They're going to give you allthe knowledge in the world
exactly how you should execute.
But now it's time for you toclose that gap and to create the
action and make those thingshappen, and they're going to
save you a lot of money overtime as well, and a lot of
heartaches time and moneybecause they're going to give
(10:17):
you a straight path to what youshould do.
A lot of the times, you areuncertain with exactly which
direction you should be going,Like, oh, I could do it this way
and this might potentiallyhappen, or I should go this way
and work with him and this couldhappen.
No, they're like just do itexactly like this.
I'm like cool, that's it.
You don't need to go throughthe hardships, those hard
(10:38):
learning curves yourself whenyou have that coach and a good
coach, a good coach they'regoing to tell you exactly from
point a to b, very quickly andefficiently.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Make those learning mistakes yourself so basically
you're just exchanging somemoney to gain back your time,
because you're paying money tothe coach and to shortcut
basically all their knowledge.
They have have the way to do itand so you're paying them to
give you that knowledge so youcan then implement that
knowledge efficiently.
To save yourself the time ofspinning your wheels and doing
(11:14):
it wrong, four different waysbefore figuring out the right
way.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Basically, Absolutely , that's it.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
That's it.
Yeah, it makes sense, and Ithink one thing that probably
(11:49):
separates you, that's it reallyimplementing it, and I think
that that's what sets you apart,which we can see the results
from.
You know how you've grown fromstartup to to you know nearly 3
million.
What caused you to focus onthat Because I don't think
that's a natural thing that mostfolks have is to relentlessly
(12:13):
implement.
So was there a time that kindof made you really focus on
implementation and not just theconsumption of knowledge, or is
it just that's your personality?
Speaker 3 (12:26):
So it's a little bit of my personality, but at the
same time I don't want to be myown bottleneck in my business,
like everything runs directlythrough me.
When getting COVID, I realizedthat everything like I had a
project manager but I was doingall the sales myself.
So I was like, oh my gosh, I'mlike the sales just completely
stopped.
I don't want to have everythingrun exactly through me.
(12:50):
So having two project managers,having two sales reps, having a
full office staff, that'swhat's going to allow me to not
have to worry about everythingfalling all onto myself.
I don't want to have everythingfall on myself.
I want to be able to create,because I think a lot of
(13:14):
painting contractors, they do alot themselves.
Everything runs through them.
They have to do the sales, theyhave to do the marketing, they
have to do the projectmanagement and they have to do
the sales.
They have to do the marketing,they have to do the project
management and they have to dothe work.
On top of that.
They got to deal with theirnumbers too, and I just don't
want to be.
I don't want to have everythingthat's ran through me and like
my business, solely ran uponmyself.
(13:37):
Nick Slavik always talks aboutgetting hit by the turkey truck.
Right, what happens if I gethit by the turkey truck?
Well, the business comes to acomplete stop, and I don't want
to be that bottleneck whereeverything runs through me.
I want to be able to create asuccessful company that doesn't
need me in every aspect, and sothe ultimate goal for me right
(14:02):
now is I want to continue to.
I want to get a third sales rep, I want to get a third project
manager.
I want to get that office stepand then remove and replace
myself and get that generalmanager.
Maybe I work underneath thegeneral manager in sales.
I work on.
I like running company meetings, the leadership of the company
(14:23):
meetings.
I like running company meetings, the leadership of the company
meetings, but eventually stepaway from the business a little
bit more.
I've gone through a lot ofstress and I just I love the
contracting business, but at thesame time, I'm working toward
an end goal where I can removeand replace myself.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Is your end goal?
Is it to have a business thatyou're the owner and you're on
the board of directors, so tospeak, and you have a CEO
running it and you're just kindof advising them?
Or do you want to get it to thepoint where you're actually
selling, or are you not reallysure?
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I'm not 100% sure.
I do enjoy sales.
There's no doubt about that.
I love the area that we live.
I love the community ties thatI have, the relationships I've
built over the years.
I don't want to just totallyneglect those and at the same
time I like but I do like doingsales.
I like leading my team, I liketeaching my team, I like
(15:24):
handling objections.
So I would like to keep thesales standpoint.
But it depends where I'm at inmy life.
If I'm still in the UnitedStates or I moved abroad and
still running the companyremotely, just having a
fractional role, We'll see howthings unfold.
(15:46):
But the ultimate goal right nowis get that general manager.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Now that, yeah, that's great.
And I guess, reflecting on yourjourney, what would you say was
and you mentioned bottlenecks,you know you being the
bottleneck a lot, I guess whatwas out of the time since 2007,.
What was the hardest bottleneckto fix Like?
(16:12):
Was there a particular rolethat you had to fill that was
the most difficult, or period oftime where you're trying to get
enough leads, or what do youthink is?
Was there any particularbottleneck or constraint in the
business over the last, you know, a couple of decades, almost a
couple of decades at this point,that, uh, that you faced, that
(16:33):
really sticks out in your memory.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I would have to say project management.
At one point in my career I wasI was managing $2 million worth
of work and I sold the $2million worth of work.
That was terrible.
I made a lot of money, but mystress was through the roof.
So if you are naturally giftedwith sales, you're good with
(16:58):
talking with people.
Stick to your sales role.
Get a production manager,production coordinator, and
develop that role.
Build that role.
Find that right person for thatjob, but have them coordinate
everything with what happenswithin that job.
That would be my biggest advice.
You can do a million dollarsworth of sales and you can also
(17:20):
afford a project manager to takeon those sales with project
logistics, colors, whatever itmay be so you were doing 2
million in sales and productionmanagement simultaneously, Did
you have?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
you had some office help though?
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Oh, absolutely yeah, I had office help to our
full-time office manager.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, but that's still for for residential
repaint.
Like with the volume that youhave to do, that's like
incredible.
Uh, I don't know if I knowanybody else that for
residential repment there'sdefinitely some commercial
because you can get larger jobs,but that's, that's so much to
to sell and produce for oneperson.
That's kind of ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
It sometimes you just don't know what you don't know,
like I'm like, this is what Iwas supposed to be doing.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
So, but thankfully that is in the rear view mirror
and my experience has taught meI don't need to do everything
myself anymore.
You hire that productionmanager.
I've built the job description,I've built the pay scale.
We have a project managementsoftware that we use, which is
our hub for running and managingthe jobs, and that's also
vitally important.
(18:33):
If you don't have a projectmanagement software, get one
immediately.
We use a very simple oneBasecamp 2.
There's also Basecamp 4.
Mondaycom is very popular.
I mean I'm sure there's a slewof them out there for
service-based contractors.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah.
So what was the?
I guess what that was.
The most challenging part wasselling and and and producing 2
million at simultaneously, wasit?
What was the difficult?
Did you have difficulty fillingthat role to get a project
manager, was it?
And why was it difficult?
(19:13):
Was it just because you hadnever hired like a substantial
role before?
And then how did you kind ofovercome, like figuring that out
Like yeah, definitely gettingthe project manager.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
It was not easy.
It's taken.
I think I'm on my my fourth one.
My fourth project manager andso far he's great one my fourth
project manager and so far he'sgreat.
But I've also realized throughpast experiences what I need to
do to make sure that he'sstaying on board, that is,
giving him a clear vision of,okay, what's this next step?
(19:47):
All right, we're going to turnyou into a senior project
manager.
Right, with more responsibilityis also going to come more
money.
You're going to have a juniorproject managers working
underneath you directly.
So giving him clear guidance,clear understanding of what that
pay increase is going to looklike and what we're looking to
build to.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Like actually having that youmentioned it at the top was
having the vision, not only forthe company, but also for what
that means for the folks thatare working for you.
Like having that careerprogression so they feel that
they're growing and they're notjust going to stay stagnant in
one role for whoever knows howlong.
So that was something that youwas that, something you
(20:32):
implemented earlier or took acouple reps to get that
implemented it took a couple, Ithink after the third one, I
really started.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I really started thinking about it fully from
their side, like what does thatperson really want?
You know, how do I keep thatperson, keep their vision
focused?
We're like all right, cool,there is growth, there is more
pay increase there.
Okay, there's going to be moreresponsibilities, but I'm happy
to help this guy build thiscompany.
(21:02):
I like him, I trust him andalso, like we've also included
bonuses directly into their pay,which which is helpful.
When you're getting a six6,000to $8,000 bonus, that's really
nice.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Oh yeah, Do you tie bonuses to certain metrics like
gross profit or customersatisfaction?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Yeah, it comes down to the net profit.
So they're getting a percentageof the overall net profit and
that's shared amongst office andproject management.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Nice, what is the for the project manager?
Since you've been through somany, or not so many four
project managers, what do youthink is a good compensation
plan?
That seems to really, becausewe mentioned having career
(21:59):
growth is important.
Is there a good compensationplan that works, that you found,
that motivates appropriatelyfor compensation and bonuses?
Would you?
Would you feel, uh, would yoube cool sharing, like what, what
seems to work for a projectmanager role?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
So for me, with my current project managers, I'm
just doing strictly salary, astrictly salary with a bonus,
and we're doing the bonus everysix months, where they're going
to get it in early July and thenright before the end of the
year.
Again, this is a percentage ofthe net income for the company
(22:37):
at the time, distributed betweenthe office and project manager.
I want to be able to make surethat I'm keeping and retaining
all of my people.
So it's also what otherbenefits can we put into play,
which this year we're going tobe doing a 401k for everybody.
They can put some savings.
We don't have great benefits.
(22:58):
We've got paid vacations, payseven holidays a year.
We don't have health insurance.
But I think it all starts withwho's leading the company, and
we do have a very good culturehere.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
So is the expectation that a project manager kind of
produce about 1.5 million,because you mentioned you have
two right now, right, or do theyhave?
Speaker 3 (23:27):
The project manager should a lot of it.
We put a lot of our.
We put a lot of our managing ofthe jobs to our sub teams.
We really handhold.
We do some handholding in thebeginning with them when we're
bringing on new subs of, like,all right, understanding, what's
(23:48):
a part of your pre-jobchecklist, what's part of your
post-job checklist, shadowingthem and correcting at the end
of it hey look, you forgot totalk to the client directly
about where you could clean yourbrushes and rollers.
Where were you setting up aworkstation?
When were you going to be ableto get the job finished, to be
able to do a walkthrough and geta quality assurance form signed
(24:12):
?
So they're really teaching themhow to run the job.
So, ultimately, the projectmanager isn't really focused on
showing up to the job sites anddoing kickoffs and final
walkthroughs, but they've taughtthe sub team directly how to do
that.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
That's cool.
So basically, your sub crewsare they're a project manager of
one project at a time becausethey're managing their own
project, but the your projectmanager is coaching them to to
be able to manage a job properlyper your processes and then
when he does have downtime he'sgoing directly to showing up at
(24:57):
the job sites making sure thatthe team has handled their
pre-job checklist, making surethat the team has put up before
photos.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
They put up before photos of not just the area that
we're painting, but are therescratches on the floor?
Is there paint drips, existingold paint drips on the brick,
paint drips, existing old paintdrips on the brick, whatever it
may be, because you know clientslook around at the end of the
job.
Oh, you guys scratched my floor.
Oh you guys got excess paint onmy furniture.
(25:24):
We've got a timestamp photobecause it's vitally important.
I think all contractors theyknow that.
It's just sometimes we forgetthat we need to do it.
But that turns into a he said,she said, kind of thing and like
where do you meet in the middle?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, that makes that makes complete sense, cool.
Well, you know, one of thethings that you've kind of
mentioned is we've talked,talked about is education, like
continuing to learn and grow andimplement, and you mentioned a
couple of books and a couple ofuh, um uh, personal improvement
(26:06):
methods like using coaches andgoing to BK live, uh, or have
there been any really importantbooks, podcasts, anything that
that we haven't talked about sofar?
That really changed the way youthought about running your
painting business.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
So yes, yes and no, I think it all starts with you
personally.
It starts with you personallyfirst and foremost.
If you can be able to executeyourself personally, that's
going to transition over toprofessionally being disciplined
, having consistency with yourlife schedule.
(26:47):
Well, that's definitely goingto play over into your business.
But I listened to two booksthis last year that I really
enjoyed.
First one was called Embrace toSuck.
It's really just about buildingmental toughness, resilience
and leadership by facinghardship instead of avoiding it.
(27:09):
A lot of us we avoid discomfortbecause, of course, it's not
fun, it doesn't feel good.
But in the book they also talkabout figuring out your personal
values, so really locking inyour personal values, what is
important to you, cultivatinganywhere between five and ten
(27:29):
values.
So that's helped me with thedecisions and the person that I
want to continuously be.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, and that that's a.
That Navy seal was a BrentGleason.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Exactly.
Um actually and that he refersto one of my coaches in the book
, who is Jason Redman.
Um, he's a part of BK liveBedros Kulian legacy tribe and
he's on every other week.
Yeah, Something else which Iliked in the book is just
accountability and discipline.
(28:05):
Success demands this ofyourself.
Relentless discipline over timehas to be implemented for you
to be that person that you wantto be, to go to that next level,
Doing hard things when you'resupposed to do them, regardless
of your feelings.
Yeah, Just controlling yourcontrollables, right.
(28:29):
What time do you wake up in themorning?
Well, first, what time did yougo to bed?
What time are you waking up inthe morning?
Are you skipping the gym or areyou actually going to the gym?
Are you having that meetingwith your team even though
you've got a bunch of other workthat needs to be done, or are
you skipping it?
It doesn't matter.
(28:51):
We live in Washington DC.
I hear politics all day.
I'm like it has nothing to dowith my life and what I can
control.
It's about me showing up anddoing the things that I know I
can control.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Mm, hmm, I think that's a really good point,
especially when it comes to theeconomy, like your folks talk
about.
The economy can't really impactit, you know.
So the only thing you canreally do is do what you do
better and be better than yourcompetitors is basically the
answer.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
You're like, oh, the economy is so bad I don't have
any leads.
Well, how much money are youputting into marketing?
You can control that, but yougot to spend a little bit more
money to bring in some moreleads.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
So the last sorry, no , no, go for it.
All of a sudden you're goingout.
You're at the bar one night andyou meet some new friends are
like hey man, you know youshould come back over to my
house.
We're going to have a pokergame, we're going to have heavy
hors d'oeuvres, we're going tohave this fine whiskey, some
(30:09):
some fancy cannabis and you knowwhat?
Everyone else who's playingpoker, they suck.
You know more than likelyyou're going to win money.
So he puts you into thisscenario.
And what happens the next day?
You go out.
You stay out way too late.
All of a sudden you lost abunch of money.
You're not doing the thingsthat you were supposed to do.
(30:31):
The following day your bodyfeels like trash because you've
polluted it with all these typesof stuff.
So it's funny how he relatesthat, because as a drinker I
heavily relate to the temptationtiger.
But it's like, look, if you canpostpone, if you can just avoid
that, you're going to continueto set yourself up with success.
(30:53):
So I've eliminated my partyingwith Temptation Tiger and since
that I've just continued toevolve.
But I like the way that he kindof goes through a scenario,
because that has happened to mein my life.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, that makes complete sense.
I like the way that that'sframed too, because it sounds
great, but when you actually doit in the next day, was it
really that great?
Because of the consequences ofdoing all those things?
Yeah, that makes sense.
You're referring to is embracethe suck, which reminds me of
(31:38):
when I was in the military.
That was what we always saidwhen we had some really
difficult training or missionand it was going to be terrible.
And then it was just likesomeone would say just embrace
the suck, it's going to beterrible, just embrace it, which
can be very useful when youneed to do something that you
know needs to be done.
(31:59):
I guess my question is how doyou know, just to go back to,
when you're doing $2 million insales and $2 million in
production management, which youwere definitely embracing this
you were just like I thoughtthis is what we had to do, I
needed to do this.
Where do you balance that with?
Well, actually, there's abetter way to achieve what I'm
trying to achieve if I do it, analternate way and not not, I
(32:23):
guess how do you evaluatewhether you should be doing that
thing versus just embracing thestock and doing it because it's
, it's hard and you just need todo it anyway.
Just like, how do you kind ofmake sure you're not making the
same mistake you did before withmaybe make embracing the suck
(32:44):
too much with the 2 million insales and 2 million in
production management where itwas almost like taking you away
from you know, actually managingyour business because you're
all your time was in thetrenches, so to speak?
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yeah, I will say that you got to be mindful of your
life, right, like?
What are your feelings?
Are you totally stressed out?
Are you hating life?
Okay, yeah, I was, but also hada coach at the time.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
I don't know if I did .
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I had a good coach at the time, but I'm sure somebody
was like you don't need to dothis all by yourself, you can
hire somebody else to help you.
But I can't remember exactlyhow that transpired, but I just
got fed up with it and I knewand that's the hard work like
embracing the suck of goingbuilding something that you've
(33:41):
never built before, of like thejob description for your project
manager, pay scale for them,setting up the processes Like
I'm not that guy, I am notprocess driven.
Thank you, chad GPT.
You've helped my lifetremendously Setting up those
processes and job descriptions.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
But yeah, so it was.
It was actually kind of so youwere doing this embracing the
suck of what you knew, but youwere kind of avoiding the suck
of what you knew, but you werekind of avoiding the suck of
what you kind of hadn't donebefore or felt like you weren't
prepared to do so.
In a way, it sounded like youwere embracing the suck but
maybe you actually were kind ofavoiding the suck that you
(34:20):
didn't know how to, how toaccomplish that's exactly right,
that Awesome, and then that's.
Oh yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
I was gonna make one last point about like drinking
and temptation tiger of, I'verealized I heard this saying
that really resonates with me ofalcohol is the thief of
tomorrow's happiness.
I was like, oh man, I'm likeyou could phrase it as getting
drunk is the thief of tomorrow'shappiness.
I was like, oh man, I'm like,or you could phrase it as
getting drunk is the thief oftomorrow's happiness.
(34:51):
But that's exactly what wouldhappen with with temptation.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah, no, I, I completely agree.
I, whenever I drank a lot whenI was in my early twenties, but
once I turned 30, I guess I wasblessed in a way, was like I
could, if I were to have onedrink or even just smell alcohol
.
It was like the next day I hada hangover.
(35:18):
It was just so.
It was so difficult to functionthe next day just off of such a
low amount of alcohol.
I had to stop.
So I guess, in a way, I waskind of blessed in the sense
that I had to quit earlier thanI probably would have, just
because it had such an impact onmy body for some reason.
(35:54):
Totally, from my perspective,was not worth the little bit of
fun you might have had thatevening for the feeling of the
next day and the lost sleep.
It just messes with your sleep.
It's just not a good trade atall from my perspective.
Um, and from what it looks likein your journey you know 2018,
you were able to pretty quicklyafter that, almost double your
business, right?
(36:16):
Is that exactly which is crazy?
Double your business.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Like literally just figuring out where my time was
being spent.
I was spending a lot of timeand too much entertainment, too
much fun.
That's plain and simple.
Now it's not to say I don'tkeep fun in my life still, but I
think you got to have thatbalance.
You got to have that balancewhere, again, I got from the
(36:43):
same group and he categorizes itin the three areas of your life
group.
And he categorizes it in thethree areas of your life Kill,
chill and skill Killing.
It is like, all right, you'reworking hard every single day,
you're focused on that onespecific task, but you also need
to be able to chill.
You also need those mentalreprieves to be able to give
yourself your body that breakand skill right.
(37:07):
You need skills to be able tokill it.
So, working on your leadershipskills, working on your sales
skills, working on your businessdevelopment skills, like those
three need to go hand in hand.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, I like it.
Kill chill skill.
That's a good one.
Very simple, straightforward,awesome.
Well, patrick, I reallyappreciate your time today.
Are there any last thoughtsthat you have for listeners,
painting business owners, ongrowing your business, on
overcoming challenges, educatingand implementing?
(37:42):
Any last thoughts you havebefore we let you go today?
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Yeah, it's just about figuring out where you want to
be First and foremost.
Where do you really want to be?
Do you want to be a singleowner operator, if you are cool.
If not, hey look, man, I don'twant to do everything myself
anymore.
There are a ton of consultinggroups out there that can help
(38:10):
you scale to the next level.
And you also sometimes havesome self-limiting beliefs that
you need to get past of thinking, well, I can't do this, I'm not
tech savvy, I'm not, I don'thave a college degree.
Screw all that noise, I had thesame stuff.
It's just about proving toyourself consistently what you
(38:30):
can specifically do by actuallyputting in the work, going out
there, finding somebody to beable to work with, finding a
consultant, finding a mastermindgroup to join and continue to
evolve and focus in on that goalof what you want for yourself.
What's small?
(38:51):
Okay, it's not just a goal, butsmall, actionable steps to be
able to make that goalattainable.
What are the small actionable?
What's the first step, what'sthe second step?
And you already know, eossystem is a great place to help
you figure that out.
Yes, the Entrepreneur Operating.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
System.
There's a great place to helpyou figure that out yes, the
Entrepreneur Operating System.
The book Traction by GinoWickman Amazing book it's one of
my top books for sure Gives youthe written instructions on
basically how to run yourbusiness, which it's new.
It's like a lot of businessbooks are like very theory.
I love EOS.
(39:29):
It's great.
It's great stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Before I let you go, I got a question for you.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
I know me and you are both big fans of Alex Ramosi,
but I wanted to get yourexperience on how you went out
there and what you took awayfrom it.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Yeah, it was really cool.
So I did the workshop with hehas like a general workshop that
he runs, and so I did that inJuly of 2024.
So last year.
And so that was pretty cool.
Gp to CAC ratio and growing inusing that ratio to evaluate
(40:12):
your business and alsoevaluating the value of your
business Like it was theenterprise value of your
business, and then figuring outwhat the constraint is in your
business so that you can fix it,so you can grow to the next
level.
So there's kind of like anoverall like look at that.
And then from there I did the.
(40:33):
They have an L2 and L3, whatthey call L2 and L3.
So I did both, which isbasically meeting with Alex
one-on-one.
You sit in a room with him forlike eight hours with eight or
nine other business owners andhe gives you feedback on.
He like does the research, hastheir team do research on your
(40:55):
business and he providesrecommendations on strategy
changes.
And then also the L2 is justbasically follow up on progress
towards your goals and againaddressing those constraints and
trying to fix those constraintsto unlock growth in the
business.
So yeah, it was really.
(41:17):
I learned a lot.
Alex is really, he's like amachine.
He we're in that room for eighthours.
The first four hours he wasgoing around the table and he
was very prepared givingrecommendations to each business
on and then, like you know,going back and forth and like
(41:37):
using the whiteboard.
It was like watching a videolive, basically for four hours
straight.
We took a 30 minute lunch breakwhere he just had like some
chicken and rice and went to thebathroom.
Once he came back and did itfor another four hours it was.
I don't know if he was wearing acatheter or what was going on
there, but he was literally likea machine.
(41:58):
Uh, I mean, I went to thebathroom like eight times during
that that whole process, butsomehow he's able to just focus
and just deliver value like amachine for many hours on end.
So he's really impressive as aperson.
But, yeah, he's able to reallydive into many different
(42:21):
businesses and really distillwhat's going on there and what
you can do to get to whatleverage you can do to, to get
to the, what levers you can pullto, to get to the next level.
So yeah, I highly recommend um,if you have the opportunity, to
either go to the workshop or ordo one of those programs, for
sure.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
He always talks about his work ethic and what he does
to to make sure that he isfully focused and locked in.
And it's, it's, it's impressive, but you're just reaffirming
that.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, I mean he, you can tell he prepared for each
you know person that was thereattending for the, the
one-on-one or I guesseight-on-one or nine-on-one, but
he knew, he knew your, eachperson's business, like he had
done the research and he wasalready prepared with the
(43:12):
recommendations and then able totake the new information, that
new context that you provided totweak things and work with you
on the strategy.
So, yeah, it was superimpressive Awesome Cool, Cool.
Well, I really appreciateimpressive.
Awesome Cool Cool.
Well, I really appreciate yourtime today, Patrick, and for the
(43:33):
listeners, we will see you nextweek.
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running and scaling a
professional painting business,from the brushes and ladders to
the spreadsheets and balancesheets.
We've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice specifically
for you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
before making any significantfinancial decision.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA and former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering your numbers that
drive success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable, one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited today tospeak with Patrick from
(01:06):
Patrick's Painting up inNorthern Virginia.
He's an amazing business owner.
I've known him for years, soI'm super excited to have a
conversation with him and diveinto what has made him
successful.
Welcome to the podcast, Patrick.
How's it going?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Good.
Thank you so much for having meon today, Daniel.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I'm super excited to jump in.
Could you kind of give thelisteners like what's been your
journey big picture.
Where did you get started, howdid you get started into the
painting industry and what havebeen some major milestones since
then?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Yeah, absolutely Well , I would say.
When I first started, there wasno vision.
There was just like I had apaintbrush and a contractor's
license and I'm like, all right,I'm going to do this legally.
I don't know for how long, butI'm just going to get started
with it.
But I started fresh out of highschool.
I had a business partner for alittle bit.
(02:00):
We quickly ended ourrelationship and I kind of just
ran with it.
I was in 2007 and still reallyunsure what I was going to do
with it.
Like I said, I got my businesslicense, I got my insurance and
I wanted to be legal if Iactually was going to do it.
But I realized, or so I wasdoing three things I was
(02:25):
painting, I was boxing and I wasgoing to college.
Well, one of them had to go andcollege went, so I was doing
business administration and thebusiness administration got put
on the back burner and I startedfocusing on boxing, which I
ended up having 24 amateurfights, one professional fight.
(02:45):
So it was a fun time betweenrunning the business and boxing.
But fast forward to 2014,.
That's where a big milestonehappened for me.
I went to my first PCA eventPCA event, it event.
(03:06):
I was somewhere South Carolina,charleston, south Carolina
that's where it was.
It's actually 11 years ago andfantastic.
That really opened up manydoors for me.
I realized there was lots ofother painting contractors
within the group.
They were sharing their successstories.
They were sharing their secretson how they're dealing with
(03:28):
customers, how they're doingwith production, how they're
dealing with how to do theactual work, and from there I
just continued to grow,implement, fast forward to end
of 2018, when I decided to quitdrinking.
That's a big one for me.
(03:48):
That's when real growth startedto happen.
I was doing about $600,000 ayear Up to that point.
For the last couple of years,when I quit drinking, I
immediately took it to 1.1million.
Following year 1.5, to 1.1million following year 1.5, next
(04:13):
year, 1.8, 2.1, and then rightnow we've been doing about 2.2,
2.6.
We're trying to hit three thisyear.
So it's been a really goodgrowth.
But but once I eliminated thebullshit, to be honest with you,
I was realizing where I waswasting my time, where I was
wasting my time, what I wasdoing, and a couple of books
(04:35):
came into it that helped me makethis transition, which was
first Alcohol Explained, justunderstanding how alcohol
affects me personally and howmuch it really was disrupting my
sleep.
So that was one of the bigreasons why I quit drinking.
I was also tired of being tired, and I wasn't an everyday
drinker, I was more like yourweekend warrior.
(04:57):
But why would I just sleep fornine to 10 hours and then wake
up still feeling groggy, stillfeeling tired, like it didn't
make any sense?
So alcohol affects your sleeptremendously.
And then I listened to DavidGoggins' book Can't Hurt Me.
He talks about the 40% rule.
Most people are only giving 40%of themselves, which.
(05:17):
I took a hard look in themirror and I was like all right,
were you leaving this extratime on the table?
Realizing you're spending a lotof time watching TV, browsing
social media, browsing theInternet and just not using my
time product productively to beable to increase my skill level.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So I buckled down, started working a little bit
harder and this is where I'm atnow and continuing to evolve
every year and just reallytrying to live up to my
God-given potential.
Yeah, that's amazing with youis that you're, you're always
trying to learn.
You're, you're going to thosepieces.
You're always at a PCA eventI'll see you there.
You're going to additionalevents outside of PCA to just
learn as a business owner oreven just improve your life
(06:12):
generally, and you're readingbooks, um, consuming content,
like that's like a uh, how much,how much of that learning that.
I guess you're, you're, youknow're craving that education,
but not only just educatingyourself, but you're also
implementing.
How much of that is responsiblefor the success that you've
(06:35):
seen, going from just no visionout of high school running a
paint business with your buddy,to now running a $3 million
painting business with a hugestaff that works with you.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Yeah, I mean, knowledge is everything.
I'm gaining a ton of knowledgefrom the books, from the podcast
, but just consistentlylistening to people that I say
that are smarter than me,listening to very deep, mindful,
strategic conversations aboutstuff, and some of the stuff I'm
(07:11):
picking up I'm putting it intoplay in my personal life or my
professional life and, at thesame time, not just listening to
it but also what's helping iscoaching.
Coaching is absolutely beenhuge.
You have to pay for the adviceof others to get you forward
faster.
So the coaching standpoint I'vegot a financial coach, I've got
(07:35):
a business coach, I've got apersonal trainer.
You need these differentcoaches and aspects of your life
to help you move forward faster.
And, yes, you do have to payfor it.
And I would say you pay fortheir experiences so you don't
have to make those same mistakesyourself.
So, coaching and justcontinuing to listen to this
(07:56):
audiobooks, podcasts and alsocoaching events.
I just went out to Californiafor BK Live.
I've been a part of that group.
I joined the Legacy Tribe atthe beginning of 2025, which is
a group of individuals.
(08:17):
We meet every month online.
We have a new speaker everyweek, but every month it's a
different subject.
One month it's personalbranding, the next month it's
communication skills, one monthit's sales.
So every month we have somebodyelse or a different subject,
but every week we have adifferent speaker talking about
(08:37):
something new.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, that's really cool.
And going back to the coachingthing, like you have, it sounds
like you have a financial coach,a business coach and a fitness
coach.
Did I get them all?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Okay, so some folks are listening, probably like man
, this guy needs a coach forevery part of his life.
That might seem like a lot ofcoaches for some folks and I
know for a while I was kind ofvery hesitant to pay for you
know someone else to tell mewhat they think I should do, and
I don't know if you were atthat point in your life at all.
(09:14):
But what would you say tosomebody who was like man, you
got to pay for all thosedifferent support people?
Like, was there a time or amoment in your life where you
realized like, oh, this istotally worth it?
What changed there?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
was there a time in my life where I was like this is
totally worth it, absolutely,absolutely.
It's just just realizing howmuch faster you can get.
You can get with yourselfpersonally or professionally by
hiring that coach right that?
Hiring the coaches?
They're going to tell youexactly what you need to do.
But I always talk about closingthe knowledge and action gap,
(09:55):
right?
They're going to give you allthe knowledge in the world
exactly how you should execute.
But now it's time for you toclose that gap and to create the
action and make those thingshappen, and they're going to
save you a lot of money overtime as well, and a lot of
heartaches time and moneybecause they're going to give
(10:17):
you a straight path to what youshould do.
A lot of the times, you areuncertain with exactly which
direction you should be going,Like, oh, I could do it this way
and this might potentiallyhappen, or I should go this way
and work with him and this couldhappen.
No, they're like just do itexactly like this.
I'm like cool, that's it.
You don't need to go throughthe hardships, those hard
(10:38):
learning curves yourself whenyou have that coach and a good
coach, a good coach they'regoing to tell you exactly from
point a to b, very quickly andefficiently.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Make those learning mistakes yourself so basically
you're just exchanging somemoney to gain back your time,
because you're paying money tothe coach and to shortcut
basically all their knowledge.
They have have the way to do itand so you're paying them to
give you that knowledge so youcan then implement that
knowledge efficiently.
To save yourself the time ofspinning your wheels and doing
(11:14):
it wrong, four different waysbefore figuring out the right
way.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Basically, Absolutely , that's it.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
That's it.
Yeah, it makes sense, and Ithink one thing that probably
(11:49):
separates you, that's it reallyimplementing it, and I think
that that's what sets you apart,which we can see the results
from.
You know how you've grown fromstartup to to you know nearly 3
million.
What caused you to focus onthat Because I don't think
that's a natural thing that mostfolks have is to relentlessly
(12:13):
implement.
So was there a time that kindof made you really focus on
implementation and not just theconsumption of knowledge, or is
it just that's your personality?
Speaker 3 (12:26):
So it's a little bit of my personality, but at the
same time I don't want to be myown bottleneck in my business,
like everything runs directlythrough me.
When getting COVID, I realizedthat everything like I had a
project manager but I was doingall the sales myself.
So I was like, oh my gosh, I'mlike the sales just completely
stopped.
I don't want to have everythingrun exactly through me.
(12:50):
So having two project managers,having two sales reps, having a
full office staff, that'swhat's going to allow me to not
have to worry about everythingfalling all onto myself.
I don't want to have everythingfall on myself.
I want to be able to create,because I think a lot of
(13:14):
painting contractors, they do alot themselves.
Everything runs through them.
They have to do the sales, theyhave to do the marketing, they
have to do the projectmanagement and they have to do
the sales.
They have to do the marketing,they have to do the project
management and they have to dothe work.
On top of that.
They got to deal with theirnumbers too, and I just don't
want to be.
I don't want to have everythingthat's ran through me and like
my business, solely ran uponmyself.
(13:37):
Nick Slavik always talks aboutgetting hit by the turkey truck.
Right, what happens if I gethit by the turkey truck?
Well, the business comes to acomplete stop, and I don't want
to be that bottleneck whereeverything runs through me.
I want to be able to create asuccessful company that doesn't
need me in every aspect, and sothe ultimate goal for me right
(14:02):
now is I want to continue to.
I want to get a third sales rep, I want to get a third project
manager.
I want to get that office stepand then remove and replace
myself and get that generalmanager.
Maybe I work underneath thegeneral manager in sales.
I work on.
I like running company meetings, the leadership of the company
(14:23):
meetings.
I like running company meetings, the leadership of the company
meetings, but eventually stepaway from the business a little
bit more.
I've gone through a lot ofstress and I just I love the
contracting business, but at thesame time, I'm working toward
an end goal where I can removeand replace myself.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Is your end goal?
Is it to have a business thatyou're the owner and you're on
the board of directors, so tospeak, and you have a CEO
running it and you're just kindof advising them?
Or do you want to get it to thepoint where you're actually
selling, or are you not reallysure?
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I'm not 100% sure.
I do enjoy sales.
There's no doubt about that.
I love the area that we live.
I love the community ties thatI have, the relationships I've
built over the years.
I don't want to just totallyneglect those and at the same
time I like but I do like doingsales.
I like leading my team, I liketeaching my team, I like
(15:24):
handling objections.
So I would like to keep thesales standpoint.
But it depends where I'm at inmy life.
If I'm still in the UnitedStates or I moved abroad and
still running the companyremotely, just having a
fractional role, We'll see howthings unfold.
(15:46):
But the ultimate goal right nowis get that general manager.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Now that, yeah, that's great.
And I guess, reflecting on yourjourney, what would you say was
and you mentioned bottlenecks,you know you being the
bottleneck a lot, I guess whatwas out of the time since 2007,.
What was the hardest bottleneckto fix Like?
(16:12):
Was there a particular rolethat you had to fill that was
the most difficult, or period oftime where you're trying to get
enough leads, or what do youthink is?
Was there any particularbottleneck or constraint in the
business over the last, you know, a couple of decades, almost a
couple of decades at this point,that, uh, that you faced, that
(16:33):
really sticks out in your memory.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I would have to say project management.
At one point in my career I wasI was managing $2 million worth
of work and I sold the $2million worth of work.
That was terrible.
I made a lot of money, but mystress was through the roof.
So if you are naturally giftedwith sales, you're good with
(16:58):
talking with people.
Stick to your sales role.
Get a production manager,production coordinator, and
develop that role.
Build that role.
Find that right person for thatjob, but have them coordinate
everything with what happenswithin that job.
That would be my biggest advice.
You can do a million dollarsworth of sales and you can also
(17:20):
afford a project manager to takeon those sales with project
logistics, colors, whatever itmay be so you were doing 2
million in sales and productionmanagement simultaneously, Did
you have?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
you had some office help though?
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Oh, absolutely yeah, I had office help to our
full-time office manager.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, but that's still for for residential
repaint.
Like with the volume that youhave to do, that's like
incredible.
Uh, I don't know if I knowanybody else that for
residential repment there'sdefinitely some commercial
because you can get larger jobs,but that's, that's so much to
to sell and produce for oneperson.
That's kind of ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
It sometimes you just don't know what you don't know,
like I'm like, this is what Iwas supposed to be doing.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
So, but thankfully that is in the rear view mirror
and my experience has taught meI don't need to do everything
myself anymore.
You hire that productionmanager.
I've built the job description,I've built the pay scale.
We have a project managementsoftware that we use, which is
our hub for running and managingthe jobs, and that's also
vitally important.
(18:33):
If you don't have a projectmanagement software, get one
immediately.
We use a very simple oneBasecamp 2.
There's also Basecamp 4.
Mondaycom is very popular.
I mean I'm sure there's a slewof them out there for
service-based contractors.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah.
So what was the?
I guess what that was.
The most challenging part wasselling and and and producing 2
million at simultaneously, wasit?
What was the difficult?
Did you have difficulty fillingthat role to get a project
manager, was it?
And why was it difficult?
(19:13):
Was it just because you hadnever hired like a substantial
role before?
And then how did you kind ofovercome, like figuring that out
Like yeah, definitely gettingthe project manager.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
It was not easy.
It's taken.
I think I'm on my my fourth one.
My fourth project manager andso far he's great one my fourth
project manager and so far he'sgreat.
But I've also realized throughpast experiences what I need to
do to make sure that he'sstaying on board, that is,
giving him a clear vision of,okay, what's this next step?
(19:47):
All right, we're going to turnyou into a senior project
manager.
Right, with more responsibilityis also going to come more
money.
You're going to have a juniorproject managers working
underneath you directly.
So giving him clear guidance,clear understanding of what that
pay increase is going to looklike and what we're looking to
build to.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Like actually having that youmentioned it at the top was
having the vision, not only forthe company, but also for what
that means for the folks thatare working for you.
Like having that careerprogression so they feel that
they're growing and they're notjust going to stay stagnant in
one role for whoever knows howlong.
So that was something that youwas that, something you
(20:32):
implemented earlier or took acouple reps to get that
implemented it took a couple, Ithink after the third one, I
really started.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I really started thinking about it fully from
their side, like what does thatperson really want?
You know, how do I keep thatperson, keep their vision
focused?
We're like all right, cool,there is growth, there is more
pay increase there.
Okay, there's going to be moreresponsibilities, but I'm happy
to help this guy build thiscompany.
(21:02):
I like him, I trust him andalso, like we've also included
bonuses directly into their pay,which which is helpful.
When you're getting a six6,000to $8,000 bonus, that's really
nice.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Oh yeah, Do you tie bonuses to certain metrics like
gross profit or customersatisfaction?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Yeah, it comes down to the net profit.
So they're getting a percentageof the overall net profit and
that's shared amongst office andproject management.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Nice, what is the for the project manager?
Since you've been through somany, or not so many four
project managers, what do youthink is a good compensation
plan?
That seems to really, becausewe mentioned having career
(21:59):
growth is important.
Is there a good compensationplan that works, that you found,
that motivates appropriatelyfor compensation and bonuses?
Would you?
Would you feel, uh, would yoube cool sharing, like what, what
seems to work for a projectmanager role?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
So for me, with my current project managers, I'm
just doing strictly salary, astrictly salary with a bonus,
and we're doing the bonus everysix months, where they're going
to get it in early July and thenright before the end of the
year.
Again, this is a percentage ofthe net income for the company
(22:37):
at the time, distributed betweenthe office and project manager.
I want to be able to make surethat I'm keeping and retaining
all of my people.
So it's also what otherbenefits can we put into play,
which this year we're going tobe doing a 401k for everybody.
They can put some savings.
We don't have great benefits.
(22:58):
We've got paid vacations, payseven holidays a year.
We don't have health insurance.
But I think it all starts withwho's leading the company, and
we do have a very good culturehere.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
So is the expectation that a project manager kind of
produce about 1.5 million,because you mentioned you have
two right now, right, or do theyhave?
Speaker 3 (23:27):
The project manager should a lot of it.
We put a lot of our.
We put a lot of our managing ofthe jobs to our sub teams.
We really handhold.
We do some handholding in thebeginning with them when we're
bringing on new subs of, like,all right, understanding, what's
(23:48):
a part of your pre-jobchecklist, what's part of your
post-job checklist, shadowingthem and correcting at the end
of it hey look, you forgot totalk to the client directly
about where you could clean yourbrushes and rollers.
Where were you setting up aworkstation?
When were you going to be ableto get the job finished, to be
able to do a walkthrough and geta quality assurance form signed
(24:12):
?
So they're really teaching themhow to run the job.
So, ultimately, the projectmanager isn't really focused on
showing up to the job sites anddoing kickoffs and final
walkthroughs, but they've taughtthe sub team directly how to do
that.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
That's cool.
So basically, your sub crewsare they're a project manager of
one project at a time becausethey're managing their own
project, but the your projectmanager is coaching them to to
be able to manage a job properlyper your processes and then
when he does have downtime he'sgoing directly to showing up at
(24:57):
the job sites making sure thatthe team has handled their
pre-job checklist, making surethat the team has put up before
photos.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
They put up before photos of not just the area that
we're painting, but are therescratches on the floor?
Is there paint drips, existingold paint drips on the brick,
paint drips, existing old paintdrips on the brick, whatever it
may be, because you know clientslook around at the end of the
job.
Oh, you guys scratched my floor.
Oh you guys got excess paint onmy furniture.
(25:24):
We've got a timestamp photobecause it's vitally important.
I think all contractors theyknow that.
It's just sometimes we forgetthat we need to do it.
But that turns into a he said,she said, kind of thing and like
where do you meet in the middle?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, that makes that makes complete sense, cool.
Well, you know, one of thethings that you've kind of
mentioned is we've talked,talked about is education, like
continuing to learn and grow andimplement, and you mentioned a
couple of books and a couple ofuh, um uh, personal improvement
(26:06):
methods like using coaches andgoing to BK live, uh, or have
there been any really importantbooks, podcasts, anything that
that we haven't talked about sofar?
That really changed the way youthought about running your
painting business.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
So yes, yes and no, I think it all starts with you
personally.
It starts with you personallyfirst and foremost.
If you can be able to executeyourself personally, that's
going to transition over toprofessionally being disciplined
, having consistency with yourlife schedule.
(26:47):
Well, that's definitely goingto play over into your business.
But I listened to two booksthis last year that I really
enjoyed.
First one was called Embrace toSuck.
It's really just about buildingmental toughness, resilience
and leadership by facinghardship instead of avoiding it.
(27:09):
A lot of us we avoid discomfortbecause, of course, it's not
fun, it doesn't feel good.
But in the book they also talkabout figuring out your personal
values, so really locking inyour personal values, what is
important to you, cultivatinganywhere between five and ten
(27:29):
values.
So that's helped me with thedecisions and the person that I
want to continuously be.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, and that that's a.
That Navy seal was a BrentGleason.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Exactly.
Um actually and that he refersto one of my coaches in the book
, who is Jason Redman.
Um, he's a part of BK liveBedros Kulian legacy tribe and
he's on every other week.
Yeah, Something else which Iliked in the book is just
accountability and discipline.
(28:05):
Success demands this ofyourself.
Relentless discipline over timehas to be implemented for you
to be that person that you wantto be, to go to that next level,
Doing hard things when you'resupposed to do them, regardless
of your feelings.
Yeah, Just controlling yourcontrollables, right.
(28:29):
What time do you wake up in themorning?
Well, first, what time did yougo to bed?
What time are you waking up inthe morning?
Are you skipping the gym or areyou actually going to the gym?
Are you having that meetingwith your team even though
you've got a bunch of other workthat needs to be done, or are
you skipping it?
It doesn't matter.
(28:51):
We live in Washington DC.
I hear politics all day.
I'm like it has nothing to dowith my life and what I can
control.
It's about me showing up anddoing the things that I know I
can control.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Mm, hmm, I think that's a really good point,
especially when it comes to theeconomy, like your folks talk
about.
The economy can't really impactit, you know.
So the only thing you canreally do is do what you do
better and be better than yourcompetitors is basically the
answer.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
You're like, oh, the economy is so bad I don't have
any leads.
Well, how much money are youputting into marketing?
You can control that, but yougot to spend a little bit more
money to bring in some moreleads.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
So the last sorry, no , no, go for it.
All of a sudden you're goingout.
You're at the bar one night andyou meet some new friends are
like hey man, you know youshould come back over to my
house.
We're going to have a pokergame, we're going to have heavy
hors d'oeuvres, we're going tohave this fine whiskey, some
(30:09):
some fancy cannabis and you knowwhat?
Everyone else who's playingpoker, they suck.
You know more than likelyyou're going to win money.
So he puts you into thisscenario.
And what happens the next day?
You go out.
You stay out way too late.
All of a sudden you lost abunch of money.
You're not doing the thingsthat you were supposed to do.
(30:31):
The following day your bodyfeels like trash because you've
polluted it with all these typesof stuff.
So it's funny how he relatesthat, because as a drinker I
heavily relate to the temptationtiger.
But it's like, look, if you canpostpone, if you can just avoid
that, you're going to continueto set yourself up with success.
(30:53):
So I've eliminated my partyingwith Temptation Tiger and since
that I've just continued toevolve.
But I like the way that he kindof goes through a scenario,
because that has happened to mein my life.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, that makes complete sense.
I like the way that that'sframed too, because it sounds
great, but when you actually doit in the next day, was it
really that great?
Because of the consequences ofdoing all those things?
Yeah, that makes sense.
You're referring to is embracethe suck, which reminds me of
(31:38):
when I was in the military.
That was what we always saidwhen we had some really
difficult training or missionand it was going to be terrible.
And then it was just likesomeone would say just embrace
the suck, it's going to beterrible, just embrace it, which
can be very useful when youneed to do something that you
know needs to be done.
(31:59):
I guess my question is how doyou know, just to go back to,
when you're doing $2 million insales and $2 million in
production management, which youwere definitely embracing this
you were just like I thoughtthis is what we had to do, I
needed to do this.
Where do you balance that with?
Well, actually, there's abetter way to achieve what I'm
trying to achieve if I do it, analternate way and not not, I
(32:23):
guess how do you evaluatewhether you should be doing that
thing versus just embracing thestock and doing it because it's
, it's hard and you just need todo it anyway.
Just like, how do you kind ofmake sure you're not making the
same mistake you did before withmaybe make embracing the suck
(32:44):
too much with the 2 million insales and 2 million in
production management where itwas almost like taking you away
from you know, actually managingyour business because you're
all your time was in thetrenches, so to speak?
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yeah, I will say that you got to be mindful of your
life, right, like?
What are your feelings?
Are you totally stressed out?
Are you hating life?
Okay, yeah, I was, but also hada coach at the time.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
I don't know if I did .
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I had a good coach at the time, but I'm sure somebody
was like you don't need to dothis all by yourself, you can
hire somebody else to help you.
But I can't remember exactlyhow that transpired, but I just
got fed up with it and I knewand that's the hard work like
embracing the suck of goingbuilding something that you've
(33:41):
never built before, of like thejob description for your project
manager, pay scale for them,setting up the processes Like
I'm not that guy, I am notprocess driven.
Thank you, chad GPT.
You've helped my lifetremendously Setting up those
processes and job descriptions.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
But yeah, so it was.
It was actually kind of so youwere doing this embracing the
suck of what you knew, but youwere kind of avoiding the suck
of what you knew, but you werekind of avoiding the suck of
what you kind of hadn't donebefore or felt like you weren't
prepared to do so.
In a way, it sounded like youwere embracing the suck but
maybe you actually were kind ofavoiding the suck that you
(34:20):
didn't know how to, how toaccomplish that's exactly right,
that Awesome, and then that's.
Oh yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
I was gonna make one last point about like drinking
and temptation tiger of, I'verealized I heard this saying
that really resonates with me ofalcohol is the thief of
tomorrow's happiness.
I was like, oh man, I'm likeyou could phrase it as getting
drunk is the thief of tomorrow'shappiness.
I was like, oh man, I'm like,or you could phrase it as
getting drunk is the thief oftomorrow's happiness.
(34:51):
But that's exactly what wouldhappen with with temptation.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah, no, I, I completely agree.
I, whenever I drank a lot whenI was in my early twenties, but
once I turned 30, I guess I wasblessed in a way, was like I
could, if I were to have onedrink or even just smell alcohol
.
It was like the next day I hada hangover.
(35:18):
It was just so.
It was so difficult to functionthe next day just off of such a
low amount of alcohol.
I had to stop.
So I guess, in a way, I waskind of blessed in the sense
that I had to quit earlier thanI probably would have, just
because it had such an impact onmy body for some reason.
(35:54):
Totally, from my perspective,was not worth the little bit of
fun you might have had thatevening for the feeling of the
next day and the lost sleep.
It just messes with your sleep.
It's just not a good trade atall from my perspective.
Um, and from what it looks likein your journey you know 2018,
you were able to pretty quicklyafter that, almost double your
business, right?
(36:16):
Is that exactly which is crazy?
Double your business.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Like literally just figuring out where my time was
being spent.
I was spending a lot of timeand too much entertainment, too
much fun.
That's plain and simple.
Now it's not to say I don'tkeep fun in my life still, but I
think you got to have thatbalance.
You got to have that balancewhere, again, I got from the
(36:43):
same group and he categorizes itin the three areas of your life
group.
And he categorizes it in thethree areas of your life Kill,
chill and skill Killing.
It is like, all right, you'reworking hard every single day,
you're focused on that onespecific task, but you also need
to be able to chill.
You also need those mentalreprieves to be able to give
yourself your body that breakand skill right.
(37:07):
You need skills to be able tokill it.
So, working on your leadershipskills, working on your sales
skills, working on your businessdevelopment skills, like those
three need to go hand in hand.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, I like it.
Kill chill skill.
That's a good one.
Very simple, straightforward,awesome.
Well, patrick, I reallyappreciate your time today.
Are there any last thoughtsthat you have for listeners,
painting business owners, ongrowing your business, on
overcoming challenges, educatingand implementing?
(37:42):
Any last thoughts you havebefore we let you go today?
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Yeah, it's just about figuring out where you want to
be First and foremost.
Where do you really want to be?
Do you want to be a singleowner operator, if you are cool.
If not, hey look, man, I don'twant to do everything myself
anymore.
There are a ton of consultinggroups out there that can help
(38:10):
you scale to the next level.
And you also sometimes havesome self-limiting beliefs that
you need to get past of thinking, well, I can't do this, I'm not
tech savvy, I'm not, I don'thave a college degree.
Screw all that noise, I had thesame stuff.
It's just about proving toyourself consistently what you
(38:30):
can specifically do by actuallyputting in the work, going out
there, finding somebody to beable to work with, finding a
consultant, finding a mastermindgroup to join and continue to
evolve and focus in on that goalof what you want for yourself.
What's small?
(38:51):
Okay, it's not just a goal, butsmall, actionable steps to be
able to make that goalattainable.
What are the small actionable?
What's the first step, what'sthe second step?
And you already know, eossystem is a great place to help
you figure that out.
Yes, the Entrepreneur Operating.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
System.
There's a great place to helpyou figure that out yes, the
Entrepreneur Operating System.
The book Traction by GinoWickman Amazing book it's one of
my top books for sure Gives youthe written instructions on
basically how to run yourbusiness, which it's new.
It's like a lot of businessbooks are like very theory.
I love EOS.
(39:29):
It's great.
It's great stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Before I let you go, I got a question for you.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
I know me and you are both big fans of Alex Ramosi,
but I wanted to get yourexperience on how you went out
there and what you took awayfrom it.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Yeah, it was really cool.
So I did the workshop with hehas like a general workshop that
he runs, and so I did that inJuly of 2024.
So last year.
And so that was pretty cool.
Gp to CAC ratio and growing inusing that ratio to evaluate
(40:12):
your business and alsoevaluating the value of your
business Like it was theenterprise value of your
business, and then figuring outwhat the constraint is in your
business so that you can fix it,so you can grow to the next
level.
So there's kind of like anoverall like look at that.
And then from there I did the.
(40:33):
They have an L2 and L3, whatthey call L2 and L3.
So I did both, which isbasically meeting with Alex
one-on-one.
You sit in a room with him forlike eight hours with eight or
nine other business owners andhe gives you feedback on.
He like does the research, hastheir team do research on your
(40:55):
business and he providesrecommendations on strategy
changes.
And then also the L2 is justbasically follow up on progress
towards your goals and againaddressing those constraints and
trying to fix those constraintsto unlock growth in the
business.
So yeah, it was really.
(41:17):
I learned a lot.
Alex is really, he's like amachine.
He we're in that room for eighthours.
The first four hours he wasgoing around the table and he
was very prepared givingrecommendations to each business
on and then, like you know,going back and forth and like
(41:37):
using the whiteboard.
It was like watching a videolive, basically for four hours
straight.
We took a 30 minute lunch breakwhere he just had like some
chicken and rice and went to thebathroom.
Once he came back and did itfor another four hours it was.
I don't know if he was wearing acatheter or what was going on
there, but he was literally likea machine.
(41:58):
Uh, I mean, I went to thebathroom like eight times during
that that whole process, butsomehow he's able to just focus
and just deliver value like amachine for many hours on end.
So he's really impressive as aperson.
But, yeah, he's able to reallydive into many different
(42:21):
businesses and really distillwhat's going on there and what
you can do to get to whatleverage you can do to, to get
to the, what levers you can pullto, to get to the next level.
So yeah, I highly recommend um,if you have the opportunity, to
either go to the workshop or ordo one of those programs, for
sure.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
He always talks about his work ethic and what he does
to to make sure that he isfully focused and locked in.
And it's, it's, it's impressive, but you're just reaffirming
that.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, I mean he, you can tell he prepared for each
you know person that was thereattending for the, the
one-on-one or I guesseight-on-one or nine-on-one, but
he knew, he knew your, eachperson's business, like he had
done the research and he wasalready prepared with the
(43:12):
recommendations and then able totake the new information, that
new context that you provided totweak things and work with you
on the strategy.
So, yeah, it was superimpressive Awesome Cool, Cool.
Well, I really appreciateimpressive.
Awesome Cool Cool.
Well, I really appreciate yourtime today, Patrick, and for the
(43:33):
listeners, we will see you nextweek.
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