May 23, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of The Profitable Painter, host Daniel Honan sits down with Zach Guthrie, a painting business owner from Buffalo, New York, who has grown his company from a solo venture into a thriving operation with two full-time crews and seasonal expansion.
Zach shares the real-world challenges he faced in the early days, juggling roles, setting up his LLC, handling taxes, and managing manpower, and how he overcame them by investing in team culture and leadership. Learn how creating camaraderie among workers, recognizing achievements, and structuring roles like project managers and foremen have transformed his company’s efficiency and profitability.
Zach also dives into hiring strategies, compensation plans for sales and production staff, and the importance of aligning incentives across the business. Whether you’re just starting your painting business or looking to scale efficiently, this episode is packed with practical advice on how to grow a committed team, retain top talent, and ultimately boost your bottom line.
On August 5th 2025, I’m hosting a free, live webinar revealing:
✅ How to pay way less in taxes—legally
✅ The simple ratio top painting businesses use to grow profits fast
✅ What the top 20% of painters are doing differently
Go to BookkeepingForPainters.com/Webinar to register now!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes and build a business thatworks for them.
And I'm your host, daniel Honan, cpa and former painting
business owner, and your guideto mastering your numbers that
drive success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable, one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited.
(00:21):
Today I'm going to talk to ZachGuthrie out of New York.
Super excited, welcome to thepodcast, zach.
How's it going?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thank you.
Thank you, yeah, happy to behere.
It's going real good.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Awesome.
So could you kind of just giveus your journey in the painting
industry, Like how did you getstarted?
What are some major milestonesthat you've seen since you've
been running your paintingbusiness?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah, definitely.
So I have been in businessgoing on six years.
It was a start.
Like most started working at apainting company it was actually
a buddy of mine and I just sawthe opportunity in the industry.
It really stuck out to me themarket share that was available
(01:06):
in this industry and I knew Icould make a difference here.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Okay.
So you got started about sixyears ago with a friend and then
you kind of got like, hey, Icould probably do this on my own
.
What made you make that jump?
Because for a lot of folksthat's kind of a big jump to
working for somebody else to hey, I'm going to do this on my own
.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Definitely, and I've always had an entrepreneurial
spirit.
I was into business before this, just in different industries,
and when I started working withmy buddy it was a friend of mine
just looking for some extrawork.
I enjoyed doing it.
Just looking for some extrawork, I enjoyed doing it.
I saw the opportunity I wantedto continue to build with him.
(01:49):
Obviously I just went in thedirection of going on my own and
doing it that way, which I amhappy I did so.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, and I know starting up your own business,
especially painting business,can be very difficult.
What sort of challenges did youface in the first year or two?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, definitely, and that's the one thing about
running a business, andespecially a painting business,
is it's always putting out fires, and the beginning fires are
obviously the harder ones.
You're just learning andluckily we've been able to learn
from those and adapt Some ofthe earlier stage ones.
I would say basic setting upthings, getting the LLC started,
(02:38):
waiting on all that to comeback?
Manpower I started off bymyself doing the painting myself
, keeping track of the books,taxes, all of the important
stuff.
Then getting into moredifferent types of insurances.
It was a lot in the beginning.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, you're wearing all the hats.
It's like you got to be thefinance person.
You got to be the operationsperson.
You got to be the marketingperson.
You got to do everything andit's super tough, especially in
that zero to 350 range.
Yes, so, in a lot of like verysuccessful entrepreneurs it's
(03:23):
you mentioned manpower.
Like very successfulentrepreneurs it's you mentioned
manpower and that's like thelike, the key to really grow
your business is is to to getother folks to, to buy in with
your vision and to help you getto the next level.
So how did you crack that nut?
Like what?
What did you learn aboutfinding and recruiting and
hiring good people and gettingthem into your organization?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
So for in the beginning stages when we were
learning about the culture, itwas the same as what you were
mentioning.
I was like what's thedifference between the culture
of this company and this company?
And really trying to dial in,what that meant to me was just
the little things.
Our Sherwin rep last year theygave us tickets to an NHL game
and we were able to take ourguys to that.
(04:05):
Build the camaraderie betweenthe guys taking breaks together,
having annual parties, hostingthose and just really looking
out for each other.
You know, if I could tellsomeone's down or something I'm
asking them questions, you couldtell they really care to look
out for each other and it's morefamily oriented which when we
(04:28):
have new guys come in, they wantto be a part of that.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Mm.
Hmm, no, that's.
That's great, like buildingthat camaraderie and being like
as much of a close knitorganization as possible.
It can have like massive impacton the organization.
It can have like massive impacton the organization Plus the.
The bonus there is that thoseevents that you mentioned a lot
of them can be tax deductions.
(04:51):
You know, like if you have aregular annual company event
where you, your team, comes,you're maybe doing barbecue,
you're going through goals, youknow you pay for everyone's food
.
It doesn't have to be you to beat a fancy hotel or anything,
it could be literally in yourbackyard but you could still
deduct all the costs of payingfor everything.
(05:13):
So building that culture butalso getting tax deductions
through that, that's a big thingthat I think a lot of folks
don't realize.
They can use those events tomake their business better, have
(05:34):
some fun, build somerelationships with your team,
but also lower your taxes.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Definitely, and just to touch on that a bit, we also
like to recognize individual andthat just points on the
(06:06):
camaraderie right there.
You know they're always lookingout for each other.
It's just it's really nice tosee and and I could see why they
like to buy into it.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, that's awesome.
What sort of results have youcause?
I'm sure this was like alearning process for um for you
and it always is for foreveryone.
But, like, what results haveyou seen since you've been kind
of focused on the culture andbuilding that camaraderie on
your team?
You know, could could you kindof highlight, like, what was it
(06:37):
like before on your team andthen what is it like now when
you're more focused on it?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So it was definitely a revolving door before we
started implementing some ofthose culture vibes with our
company.
It was a lot of hiring, firingor hiring and then quitting,
going to the next place.
A lot of they would leave for adollar raise, whereas opposed
(07:04):
to now, it's people stay becausethey see the value in staying
here as opposed to someone who'sjust trying to pick them up
quickly.
Not saying that that happensall the time, but it's just
little things like that that Icould see a change in.
Uh, in terms of people stickingaround for longer periods of
time and wanting to stick aroundfor different reasons other
(07:26):
than monetary.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah, that's huge.
I mean reducing your employeechurn.
I mean it's so expensive tobring on a new person, get them
trained up, like, spend yourtime to teach them how to do all
these things and then for themto leave like six months or a
year later, that can be.
That's.
That's a huge expense.
So, just by investing some timeinto building camaraderie, you
(07:54):
know, having those events thatyou mentioned and and having
them stay for like two, three,four plus years, I mean that's
gonna that's money in yourpocket, I mean.
So I thought I think that's yeah, you're spending money on on
the events, but that's moneywell invested, because you one,
you get a tax deduction, like wetalked about that too they're
(08:15):
going to stick around longerbecause they felt like they feel
like they're like an actualperson that's, you know,
connected with in theorganization and they're needed.
And it's not all about themoney, it's not just like, like
you said, it's not just aboutthe check, it's about the
relationships that they havewith the rest of the people on
the team.
(08:35):
So you know it's it's thatextra piece that's going to keep
them, keep them around forlonger.
So I think that's superpowerful, so that it sounds like
you really got that going inyour company, which is awesome.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, and you know, what was really important to us
in starting the culture waskeeping guys for a longer period
of time helps us in the senseof when we're teaching them new
things in the field.
Those things that they learnare mistakes that they are now
(09:12):
not making anymore.
You see what I'm saying.
So when we hire a new guy, wehave to teach them why this
doesn't work, why that doesn'twork, and now it's one time
being taught.
They learn it.
When we have to keep reteachingnew people, it slows down
production immensely.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, gaining efficiencies with the same team.
They know how to do the job.
That gross profit probablystarts, uh, increasing.
Did you notice that?
Did you notice like an increasein gross profit, like from when
your culture was not as good toto what it is now, where you
have a close-knit team?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
that was a hundred percent and and that's what I
was trying to get at.
What I was just mentioning isis the efficiency is just on a
different level when it's guyswho've been here for longer, as
opposed to training new guys andhaving to teach them from those
simple mistakes that we taughtour initial guys that's awesome,
(10:09):
cool.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
What's uh do you?
How many crews are you runningright now?
Speaker 2 (10:16):
so right now we're running two crews, um, two
three-man crews.
We usually amp up larger thanthat, uh, during our summer
season, uh, when we implementexteriors, we're in buffalo, new
york, so during winter monthswe're interior only.
This year we have had a laterstart to the season.
We had a lot of rain in springand a lot of low temps, so we
(10:41):
were just breaking 50s like aweek or two ago and we're still
kind of fluctuating, so it'sbeen a late start to the season.
Usually at our peak the seasonwe're at around 10 to 12 guys
and then we slim down for thewintertime.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
And do you notice and I'm assuming the folks that you
bring in for seasonal work, arethey typically folks that are
new to the organization, or doyou actually have some seasonal
workers that come every season?
They just don't only want towork during the the summer, and
then they they're gone in thewinter so it's mostly, uh, new
(11:22):
guys, but we do have a couplethat are from previous seasons
and whatnot okay.
Well, so your core, the two ortwo crews that you have, the six
guys that you have, they'rekind of your core team and
they've been around for a while.
So do you notice a differencein gross profit for those two
(11:43):
teams versus the ones that comein that are only there for a few
months out of the year?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
months out of the year.
So when we bring in the couplenew guys, we always put them on
with those guys that are part ofthat main main couple crews.
So there's always original guyswith all of our guys gotcha and
we also, as the, as the seasongoes on or as our schedule gets
extremely busy, we have a couplecompanies that we subcontract
work to as well, so we're kindof hybrid, but more so W2.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Gotcha.
So those six guys, you kind ofsplit them out into team lead or
crew leads when the summercomes so that you have, kind of
like your core team stillpresent in all the crews, sounds
like.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yep, okay, cool, that's good stuff.
So we talked about getting,finding, getting and keeping
great people in yourorganization.
That's like a big thing forgrowing, you know, from zero to
a million and beyond is gettingthose people in the door that
are going to stay with you andkeep that good culture.
(12:50):
It's getting those people inthe door that are going to stay
with you and keep that goodculture.
The other things you kind ofmentioned as challenges, at
least in the beginning, waswearing all the hats, like doing
all the legal and financialpiece, like keeping track of the
books, setting up the LLC, whathave you found that really
(13:14):
works for your business and thatkind of finance component.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, so now we're in the process of adding sales
reps.
I'm kind of starting to takeoff the hats, which is really
helping.
We have project manager, paintforeman, all down the line in
like a hierarchy structure thatis allowing me to put that trust
in individuals to allow us togrow, which has hindered our
(13:43):
growth in the past me trying todo everything.
So with that in place, with usmoving into our larger office,
now we're starting to add adminstaff, sales reps, get all those
positions rolling.
That will allow me to focus onwhat I should be as an owner.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So right now it sounds like you have a project
manager, and do you actuallyhave the salesperson in place
now, or are you right nowlooking for a salesperson?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
So right now we're currently looking for a sales
rep.
I'm doing all the sales myself.
Uh, I'm realizing I'm atcapacity at close to a million
dollars in sales annually, uh,where I could keep quality up in
terms of going on estimates,follow-ups and getting these
quotes to our customers in atimely fashion.
(14:34):
So we want to add another salesrep and continue to add as we
grow.
We definitely have thecapability to add.
I'm not able to get to all ofour customers, so there's
definitely something we'releaving on the table.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah, and you mentioned admin.
Do you also have an officeadmin as well, in addition to a
project manager?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Okay, so you have your office admin, you have your
production manager and thenyou're doing all the sales and
looking to hire a salesperson sothat you can just focus on
managing the business, right?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Okay cool, so that you can just focus on managing
the business, right, right, yeah, okay cool.
Um, so this is a common like,like a common jump to make is a
lot of painting businesses, butpainting business owners are in
the same situation where they'rethey have a production manager,
they have an admin team andthey want to get out of the
sales so they can kind of, youknow, lead the business and then
(15:33):
that can.
From that point, really, it'sjust you can hit three plus
million once you're out of thatsales role.
How did you let's talk aboutthe production manager that's a
pretty key role and I know a lotof folks are trying to get to
that role.
How did you end up finding theright person to be the
(15:54):
production manager and what iswhat is like the scope of their
role, like what are theyactually doing, because
production managers can kind ofhave different roles and how do
you have them set up and how didyou actually successfully fill
that role?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, so this was a role that we've tried to fill a
couple of times in the past.
We tried I always like topromote within.
We tried moving painters up tothat role in the past, but we've
quickly learned that they'rethe best painter because that's
(16:31):
their skill is being a painter.
Uh, that's when we startedlisting different types of uh
job ads, looking for thosespecific positions, and we ended
up finding someone who has donethis type of work in the past
and they've been succeeding inthat role uh, better than anyone
(16:52):
else has, with us trying topromote within yeah, that's a
great point.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I mean, I think a lot of folks uh, myself included
when you have someone, atechnician that's really good at
whatever they do, you want tolike, oh, I'm going to put them
in charge of that thing now.
But then you're taking them outof the thing that they're
really good at, and sometimes Idon't even want to.
They like doing the thing thatthey're really good at because
they're super good at it, andyeah, it's a tricky thing.
(17:22):
It seems logical to put them incharge, but sometimes it might
not make sense.
So you actually just went andlooked for somebody that's done
it before, done projectmanagement before, and just
basically said, hey, can you dothat for me?
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Pretty much.
Yeah, we hired a projectmanager that has experience in
project management and hiredthem for our company, and we
still wanted to give ourpainters the opportunity to be
able to grow.
So that's why we have projectmanagers and then foremans as
well, and that foreman role ismore suitable for a painter that
(18:01):
goes above and beyond, becausewe make sure that they're pretty
much our painting foremans.
They're there to answerquestions for the other painters
, lead by example, and then ourPMs are the ones who deal
directly with customers, collectpayments and handle any issues
we might have.
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Gotcha.
What's the?
Because you have an officeperson and a lot of times people
kind of blend what the officeperson does and what the project
manager does.
Like, where's the handoff thatyou found that works for your
company?
Like, is it at the point atwhich the colors are?
Like the office person helpswith the onboarding and gets the
(18:43):
colors and then hands it off tothe production manager?
Or, you know, is it at someother point?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
So right now our admin and we might change this
as we add more sales reps, butwhat's been working for us with
me doing the sales, is our adminanswers the phone, makes the
schedule, onboards our clientsin terms of estimates, then it
gets handed off to the projectmanager once the project is
(19:13):
booked.
Our admin staff also doublechecks, payroll all that
internal admin stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Gotcha.
So as soon as the project'sbooked, the project managers are
making sure the colors are goodto go, they order the paint and
all that.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Communication with the customer transfers over to
the PM as well In terms of paintcolor choice, making sure the
crews have the paint ready forthe jobs, making sure the vans
are in order, the office inorder, the shop we have a shop
that's connected to our officemaking sure that that's in order
and everything's running smooth.
They oversee all production, Ioversee all sales and our admin
(19:56):
kind of handles all thepaperwork and all the in between
.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Okay so it sounds like the handoff is really going
to be between the salespersonand the production manager.
That's like salesperson gets itclosed and then hands it off to
the production manager to takeit from there, right, okay?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Correct, and if there's any questions in between
, the PM or myself will touchbase with the admin.
Hey, did you see somethingabout this customer?
Did they call in to change thisdate?
We all kind of work in unison.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, that makes sense.
So, um, so you figured out thethe best way for for your
organization is to actually findpeople who have done project
management before and get themto do it for your company.
That's that's, uh, it actuallymakes a lot of sense and a lot
of a lot of folks that havefound that to be true as well.
(20:47):
Like, just people have done.
You know, you're not a uniquepainting business.
There's plenty of paintingbusinesses out there or
similarly related trades, andall of them have project
managers.
Just get one of those people tocome work for you Instead of
trying to like find someone inyour organization that has never
(21:07):
done it and they can work ifyou have the right person, the
right type of person andeverything, but it can be a big
learning curve.
So it's kind of a you know them, you know their capabilities,
but it might be a big learningcurve for them.
So it's kind of a you know atrade off a little bit there.
But, okay, great, are you?
Are you going to apply thatsame strategy to the salesperson
(21:28):
?
Are you just looking for asalesperson to basically come
work for you, or how are youapproaching that?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
So we're definitely hiring um the sales rep that has
sales experience.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe painting sales experience,
but we're definitely making surethat they have a sales
background with a provenexperience.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, that makes sense.
And what sort of compensationstructures?
That's like always a bigquestion is like compensation
structures how do I compensatemy production manager, or how do
I compensate my salesperson?
Have you found anything thatworks well with your project
manager?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah, so with the PMs we offer a base salary with a
commission based on productiontimes.
So we have a formula set inplace that if crews finish one
day, two days before theirallotted time, then the PM gets
(22:29):
a commission.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Okay.
So if the crews are beingefficient, the project manager
gets an additional commission ontop of their base salary.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Okay, cool, cool.
And then are you trying to dosales compensation similar, like
tied to sort of that efficiencygross profit as well, or what
are you thinking for thesalesperson compensation?
Speaker 2 (22:58):
For the sales, we've been messing around with a
45,000 base, a three percent uh,three percent commission on all
sales okay, so for and and whatdo you like a salesperson?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I know obviously you're closing about a million
yourself, but you're doingeverything else.
Are you kind of expecting a1.5million for a salesperson to
close like a good one?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Right, yep, and we're also just to add a little more
background on that structure.
The 3% we do plan to pay in thecheck.
That's right after when thecustomer makes the deposit.
So if they book the job,customer pays deposit, that 3%
(23:47):
is in their check.
The next pay period.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Nice, okay, so you're making sure you get that cash,
because that's a big thing withhaving a team is you've got to
have the cash to pay them.
Making sure that you have thatdeposit.
How much of a deposit do youtake?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Oh, cashflow is huge and and it was actually, I
forget it was one of thoseseminars, uh, where you did a
speaking on and everything youspoke about with the cashflow of
things.
It just hit it on point, youknow.
I mean you could have asuccessful business, but if the
cashflow is not there, it's,it's very damaging to to a
(24:27):
business.
Um, I'm sorry, what was thequestion?
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Oh, how much of a deposit are you taking?
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Oh, we're taking a 30%, Some we take 35%.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Nice, okay, yeah, so that easily covers your labor,
um, and, and you're, you're,you're marking a part of it, it
sounds like for your salesperson, which is great, because then
you have that already set aside,so that's awesome.
And your $45,000 base salary,which is, if they do, 1.5
(24:59):
million in revenue, that's about3%, as stated as a percentage
3% of the revenue.
Then on top of that they get a3% commission as well, so that's
about 6%.
Assuming they hit 1.5 millionin sales, that would be about 6%
of revenue going to them, whichthat sounds like a really good
compensation package.
(25:19):
That's very in line with what Itypically see across different
painting businesses, so thatlooks like a really good
compensation structure.
I know one of the big challengesthat some folks come into
contact with is you know youhave your production manager,
(25:42):
who is, in this case, you'recompensating him based off of
efficiency of your crews, andthen you have your salesperson
who's actually giving the bid.
You know they're giving theprice the customer, and I know
you haven't.
You might kind of have thisissue now because you're the
salesperson but how do you guysaddress, like, the situation
(26:05):
where the salesperson, but howdo you guys address the
situation where the salespersonmay have underbid the job, and
then the production manager ispotentially penalized for having
not much budget available andtherefore doesn't get a bonus.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Right, a bonus Right.
So right now, with me doing it,it's a little easier for me to
avoid that because I'm the onedoing it.
Obviously, mistakes happen.
I've had situations where I'veunderbidded jobs.
It happens.
We're transparent with ourcustomers.
Usually when it's underbiddedcustomers.
(26:49):
Usually when it's underbidded,it's usually because of
something that was unforeseen orthe project just ended up being
more difficult than what meetsthe eye, and my customers are
usually understanding in thatfact and we're able to work
something out where we canretain a little bit more to
cover that.
Anytime I add a change order,I'm always fair about it.
(27:11):
I always like to tell mycustomer hey, we're not trying
to kill you on this, we justwant to make ends meet for that
change order portion of theproject.
But for when a sales rep uhcomes in place, we have a
structure uh, it's a, it's anestimate, estimate guide sheet
(27:33):
where they're going to be ableto go through all this to make
sure that they're notunderbidding uh, based on
measurements and visual items.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yep, that makes sense .
I know that's good because thatcan be definitely.
I'm glad you're thinking aboutit because, like that is, that
can be definitely a frictionpoint between the production
manager and the salesperson.
You know, if you don't mitigateit right, you might have some
issues there.
I know some painting businesseshave actually also commissioned
(28:10):
the salesperson based off ofthe efficiency of the project
too, so that therefore, not onlythe project manager but also
the salesperson are bonus off ofgross profit or some metric you
know, efficiency metric so thatthey're all both on the same
page and work in terms of thesame goal.
Because the salesperson's goal,you know, typically is to book
(28:33):
as much as they can.
But if you can also throw inlike, but it also has to be
profitable, that can help alignthe incentives of the
salesperson and the productionmanager and so that they're more
working together instead ofworking against each other, like
I know.
For example, you know, jasonParis, paris painting.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah.
So Jason was talking to himabout how he compensates his
salesperson and his productionmanager and he was saying that
basically it's two factors.
Like you have your customersatisfaction metric, which can
be like Google reviews or a netpromoter score, and then also an
(29:21):
efficiency metric like grossprofit or time on the job, like
budgeted hours metric, likegross profit or time on the job,
like budgeted hours, and thosetwo numbers the salesperson and
the production manager arebonused off of those two numbers
.
So both the sales andproduction manager, so that
they're both kind of moving inthe same direction to ensure
(29:42):
that, one, they're getting aGoogle review or happy customer
getting a happy customer, andthen, two, it's a profitable
project.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, and that makes a ton of sense and hopefully we
don't run into that issue wherewe have the friction between the
sales and the PM.
But it's definitely somethingwe're going to have to look into
if that friction does appear.
And I appreciate that insightbecause that will really help us
when that time comes.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, absolutely no, I think.
Well, you've been supergenerous with your time, zach.
I mean I love what you're doingover there in Buffalo, new York
.
Wouldn't want to live inBuffalo, new York a little bit
too cold for me.
I'm in Orlando, florida, butI'm loving what you're doing
there.
It sounds like you have anoutstanding culture that's
bringing in the right people,and I like the way you think
(30:33):
about getting the folks thathave done the thing before.
Just have them do it for me.
So I'm super excited for thefuture of your company.
And do you have any lastthoughts for the audience or
anything before I let you gotoday?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, you know, just anyone that's listening, that
owns a painting business, justunderstand, as hard as it may be
, there's always light at thetunnel and, as cliche as that
sounds, I just I know how it is.
We all struggle here and there.
Keep pushing along becausethere's there's a lot to be
(31:11):
rewarded in this industry A lotof great people, you know.
Looking forward to seeing youat the upcoming events.
Always have a great time withyou, daniel, so looking forward
to see you and Cody up there.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Oh yeah, absolutely Zach.
It was good talking to you andfor the listeners.
We will see you next week.
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes and build a business thatworks for them.
And I'm your host, daniel Honan, cpa and former painting
business owner, and your guideto mastering your numbers that
drive success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable, one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited.
(00:21):
Today I'm going to talk to ZachGuthrie out of New York.
Super excited, welcome to thepodcast, zach.
How's it going?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thank you.
Thank you, yeah, happy to behere.
It's going real good.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Awesome.
So could you kind of just giveus your journey in the painting
industry, Like how did you getstarted?
What are some major milestonesthat you've seen since you've
been running your paintingbusiness?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah, definitely.
So I have been in businessgoing on six years.
It was a start.
Like most started working at apainting company it was actually
a buddy of mine and I just sawthe opportunity in the industry.
It really stuck out to me themarket share that was available
(01:06):
in this industry and I knew Icould make a difference here.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Okay.
So you got started about sixyears ago with a friend and then
you kind of got like, hey, Icould probably do this on my own
.
What made you make that jump?
Because for a lot of folksthat's kind of a big jump to
working for somebody else to hey, I'm going to do this on my own
.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Definitely, and I've always had an entrepreneurial
spirit.
I was into business before this, just in different industries,
and when I started working withmy buddy it was a friend of mine
just looking for some extrawork.
I enjoyed doing it.
Just looking for some extrawork, I enjoyed doing it.
I saw the opportunity I wantedto continue to build with him.
(01:49):
Obviously I just went in thedirection of going on my own and
doing it that way, which I amhappy I did so.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, and I know starting up your own business,
especially painting business,can be very difficult.
What sort of challenges did youface in the first year or two?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, definitely, and that's the one thing about
running a business, andespecially a painting business,
is it's always putting out fires, and the beginning fires are
obviously the harder ones.
You're just learning andluckily we've been able to learn
from those and adapt Some ofthe earlier stage ones.
I would say basic setting upthings, getting the LLC started,
(02:38):
waiting on all that to comeback?
Manpower I started off bymyself doing the painting myself
, keeping track of the books,taxes, all of the important
stuff.
Then getting into moredifferent types of insurances.
It was a lot in the beginning.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, you're wearing all the hats.
It's like you got to be thefinance person.
You got to be the operationsperson.
You got to be the marketingperson.
You got to do everything andit's super tough, especially in
that zero to 350 range.
Yes, so, in a lot of like verysuccessful entrepreneurs it's
(03:23):
you mentioned manpower.
Like very successfulentrepreneurs it's you mentioned
manpower and that's like thelike, the key to really grow
your business is is to to getother folks to, to buy in with
your vision and to help you getto the next level.
So how did you crack that nut?
Like what?
What did you learn aboutfinding and recruiting and
hiring good people and gettingthem into your organization?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
So for in the beginning stages when we were
learning about the culture, itwas the same as what you were
mentioning.
I was like what's thedifference between the culture
of this company and this company?
And really trying to dial in,what that meant to me was just
the little things.
Our Sherwin rep last year theygave us tickets to an NHL game
and we were able to take ourguys to that.
(04:05):
Build the camaraderie betweenthe guys taking breaks together,
having annual parties, hostingthose and just really looking
out for each other.
You know, if I could tellsomeone's down or something I'm
asking them questions, you couldtell they really care to look
out for each other and it's morefamily oriented which when we
(04:28):
have new guys come in, they wantto be a part of that.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Mm.
Hmm, no, that's.
That's great, like buildingthat camaraderie and being like
as much of a close knitorganization as possible.
It can have like massive impacton the organization.
It can have like massive impacton the organization Plus the.
The bonus there is that thoseevents that you mentioned a lot
of them can be tax deductions.
(04:51):
You know, like if you have aregular annual company event
where you, your team, comes,you're maybe doing barbecue,
you're going through goals, youknow you pay for everyone's food
.
It doesn't have to be you to beat a fancy hotel or anything,
it could be literally in yourbackyard but you could still
deduct all the costs of payingfor everything.
(05:13):
So building that culture butalso getting tax deductions
through that, that's a big thingthat I think a lot of folks
don't realize.
They can use those events tomake their business better, have
(05:34):
some fun, build somerelationships with your team,
but also lower your taxes.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Definitely, and just to touch on that a bit, we also
like to recognize individual andthat just points on the
(06:06):
camaraderie right there.
You know they're always lookingout for each other.
It's just it's really nice tosee and and I could see why they
like to buy into it.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, that's awesome.
What sort of results have youcause?
I'm sure this was like alearning process for um for you
and it always is for foreveryone.
But, like, what results haveyou seen since you've been kind
of focused on the culture andbuilding that camaraderie on
your team?
You know, could could you kindof highlight, like, what was it
(06:37):
like before on your team andthen what is it like now when
you're more focused on it?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So it was definitely a revolving door before we
started implementing some ofthose culture vibes with our
company.
It was a lot of hiring, firingor hiring and then quitting,
going to the next place.
A lot of they would leave for adollar raise, whereas opposed
(07:04):
to now, it's people stay becausethey see the value in staying
here as opposed to someone who'sjust trying to pick them up
quickly.
Not saying that that happensall the time, but it's just
little things like that that Icould see a change in.
Uh, in terms of people stickingaround for longer periods of
time and wanting to stick aroundfor different reasons other
(07:26):
than monetary.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah, that's huge.
I mean reducing your employeechurn.
I mean it's so expensive tobring on a new person, get them
trained up, like, spend yourtime to teach them how to do all
these things and then for themto leave like six months or a
year later, that can be.
That's.
That's a huge expense.
So, just by investing some timeinto building camaraderie, you
(07:54):
know, having those events thatyou mentioned and and having
them stay for like two, three,four plus years, I mean that's
gonna that's money in yourpocket, I mean.
So I thought I think that's yeah, you're spending money on on
the events, but that's moneywell invested, because you one,
you get a tax deduction, like wetalked about that too they're
(08:15):
going to stick around longerbecause they felt like they feel
like they're like an actualperson that's, you know,
connected with in theorganization and they're needed.
And it's not all about themoney, it's not just like, like
you said, it's not just aboutthe check, it's about the
relationships that they havewith the rest of the people on
the team.
(08:35):
So you know it's it's thatextra piece that's going to keep
them, keep them around forlonger.
So I think that's superpowerful, so that it sounds like
you really got that going inyour company, which is awesome.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, and you know, what was really important to us
in starting the culture waskeeping guys for a longer period
of time helps us in the senseof when we're teaching them new
things in the field.
Those things that they learnare mistakes that they are now
(09:12):
not making anymore.
You see what I'm saying.
So when we hire a new guy, wehave to teach them why this
doesn't work, why that doesn'twork, and now it's one time
being taught.
They learn it.
When we have to keep reteachingnew people, it slows down
production immensely.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, gaining efficiencies with the same team.
They know how to do the job.
That gross profit probablystarts, uh, increasing.
Did you notice that?
Did you notice like an increasein gross profit, like from when
your culture was not as good toto what it is now, where you
have a close-knit team?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
that was a hundred percent and and that's what I
was trying to get at.
What I was just mentioning isis the efficiency is just on a
different level when it's guyswho've been here for longer, as
opposed to training new guys andhaving to teach them from those
simple mistakes that we taughtour initial guys that's awesome,
(10:09):
cool.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
What's uh do you?
How many crews are you runningright now?
Speaker 2 (10:16):
so right now we're running two crews, um, two
three-man crews.
We usually amp up larger thanthat, uh, during our summer
season, uh, when we implementexteriors, we're in buffalo, new
york, so during winter monthswe're interior only.
This year we have had a laterstart to the season.
We had a lot of rain in springand a lot of low temps, so we
(10:41):
were just breaking 50s like aweek or two ago and we're still
kind of fluctuating, so it'sbeen a late start to the season.
Usually at our peak the seasonwe're at around 10 to 12 guys
and then we slim down for thewintertime.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
And do you notice and I'm assuming the folks that you
bring in for seasonal work, arethey typically folks that are
new to the organization, or doyou actually have some seasonal
workers that come every season?
They just don't only want towork during the the summer, and
then they they're gone in thewinter so it's mostly, uh, new
(11:22):
guys, but we do have a couplethat are from previous seasons
and whatnot okay.
Well, so your core, the two ortwo crews that you have, the six
guys that you have, they'rekind of your core team and
they've been around for a while.
So do you notice a differencein gross profit for those two
(11:43):
teams versus the ones that comein that are only there for a few
months out of the year?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
months out of the year.
So when we bring in the couplenew guys, we always put them on
with those guys that are part ofthat main main couple crews.
So there's always original guyswith all of our guys gotcha and
we also, as the, as the seasongoes on or as our schedule gets
extremely busy, we have a couplecompanies that we subcontract
work to as well, so we're kindof hybrid, but more so W2.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Gotcha.
So those six guys, you kind ofsplit them out into team lead or
crew leads when the summercomes so that you have, kind of
like your core team stillpresent in all the crews, sounds
like.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yep, okay, cool, that's good stuff.
So we talked about getting,finding, getting and keeping
great people in yourorganization.
That's like a big thing forgrowing, you know, from zero to
a million and beyond is gettingthose people in the door that
are going to stay with you andkeep that good culture.
(12:50):
It's getting those people inthe door that are going to stay
with you and keep that goodculture.
The other things you kind ofmentioned as challenges, at
least in the beginning, waswearing all the hats, like doing
all the legal and financialpiece, like keeping track of the
books, setting up the LLC, whathave you found that really
(13:14):
works for your business and thatkind of finance component.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, so now we're in the process of adding sales
reps.
I'm kind of starting to takeoff the hats, which is really
helping.
We have project manager, paintforeman, all down the line in
like a hierarchy structure thatis allowing me to put that trust
in individuals to allow us togrow, which has hindered our
(13:43):
growth in the past me trying todo everything.
So with that in place, with usmoving into our larger office,
now we're starting to add adminstaff, sales reps, get all those
positions rolling.
That will allow me to focus onwhat I should be as an owner.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So right now it sounds like you have a project
manager, and do you actuallyhave the salesperson in place
now, or are you right nowlooking for a salesperson?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
So right now we're currently looking for a sales
rep.
I'm doing all the sales myself.
Uh, I'm realizing I'm atcapacity at close to a million
dollars in sales annually, uh,where I could keep quality up in
terms of going on estimates,follow-ups and getting these
quotes to our customers in atimely fashion.
(14:34):
So we want to add another salesrep and continue to add as we
grow.
We definitely have thecapability to add.
I'm not able to get to all ofour customers, so there's
definitely something we'releaving on the table.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah, and you mentioned admin.
Do you also have an officeadmin as well, in addition to a
project manager?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Okay, so you have your office admin, you have your
production manager and thenyou're doing all the sales and
looking to hire a salesperson sothat you can just focus on
managing the business, right?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Okay cool, so that you can just focus on managing
the business, right, right, yeah, okay cool.
Um, so this is a common like,like a common jump to make is a
lot of painting businesses, butpainting business owners are in
the same situation where they'rethey have a production manager,
they have an admin team andthey want to get out of the
sales so they can kind of, youknow, lead the business and then
(15:33):
that can.
From that point, really, it'sjust you can hit three plus
million once you're out of thatsales role.
How did you let's talk aboutthe production manager that's a
pretty key role and I know a lotof folks are trying to get to
that role.
How did you end up finding theright person to be the
(15:54):
production manager and what iswhat is like the scope of their
role, like what are theyactually doing, because
production managers can kind ofhave different roles and how do
you have them set up and how didyou actually successfully fill
that role?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, so this was a role that we've tried to fill a
couple of times in the past.
We tried I always like topromote within.
We tried moving painters up tothat role in the past, but we've
quickly learned that they'rethe best painter because that's
(16:31):
their skill is being a painter.
Uh, that's when we startedlisting different types of uh
job ads, looking for thosespecific positions, and we ended
up finding someone who has donethis type of work in the past
and they've been succeeding inthat role uh, better than anyone
(16:52):
else has, with us trying topromote within yeah, that's a
great point.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I mean, I think a lot of folks uh, myself included
when you have someone, atechnician that's really good at
whatever they do, you want tolike, oh, I'm going to put them
in charge of that thing now.
But then you're taking them outof the thing that they're
really good at, and sometimes Idon't even want to.
They like doing the thing thatthey're really good at because
they're super good at it, andyeah, it's a tricky thing.
(17:22):
It seems logical to put them incharge, but sometimes it might
not make sense.
So you actually just went andlooked for somebody that's done
it before, done projectmanagement before, and just
basically said, hey, can you dothat for me?
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Pretty much.
Yeah, we hired a projectmanager that has experience in
project management and hiredthem for our company, and we
still wanted to give ourpainters the opportunity to be
able to grow.
So that's why we have projectmanagers and then foremans as
well, and that foreman role ismore suitable for a painter that
(18:01):
goes above and beyond, becausewe make sure that they're pretty
much our painting foremans.
They're there to answerquestions for the other painters
, lead by example, and then ourPMs are the ones who deal
directly with customers, collectpayments and handle any issues
we might have.
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Gotcha.
What's the?
Because you have an officeperson and a lot of times people
kind of blend what the officeperson does and what the project
manager does.
Like, where's the handoff thatyou found that works for your
company?
Like, is it at the point atwhich the colors are?
Like the office person helpswith the onboarding and gets the
(18:43):
colors and then hands it off tothe production manager?
Or, you know, is it at someother point?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
So right now our admin and we might change this
as we add more sales reps, butwhat's been working for us with
me doing the sales, is our adminanswers the phone, makes the
schedule, onboards our clientsin terms of estimates, then it
gets handed off to the projectmanager once the project is
(19:13):
booked.
Our admin staff also doublechecks, payroll all that
internal admin stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Gotcha.
So as soon as the project'sbooked, the project managers are
making sure the colors are goodto go, they order the paint and
all that.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Communication with the customer transfers over to
the PM as well In terms of paintcolor choice, making sure the
crews have the paint ready forthe jobs, making sure the vans
are in order, the office inorder, the shop we have a shop
that's connected to our officemaking sure that that's in order
and everything's running smooth.
They oversee all production, Ioversee all sales and our admin
(19:56):
kind of handles all thepaperwork and all the in between
.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Okay so it sounds like the handoff is really going
to be between the salespersonand the production manager.
That's like salesperson gets itclosed and then hands it off to
the production manager to takeit from there, right, okay?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Correct, and if there's any questions in between
, the PM or myself will touchbase with the admin.
Hey, did you see somethingabout this customer?
Did they call in to change thisdate?
We all kind of work in unison.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, that makes sense.
So, um, so you figured out thethe best way for for your
organization is to actually findpeople who have done project
management before and get themto do it for your company.
That's that's, uh, it actuallymakes a lot of sense and a lot
of a lot of folks that havefound that to be true as well.
(20:47):
Like, just people have done.
You know, you're not a uniquepainting business.
There's plenty of paintingbusinesses out there or
similarly related trades, andall of them have project
managers.
Just get one of those people tocome work for you Instead of
trying to like find someone inyour organization that has never
(21:07):
done it and they can work ifyou have the right person, the
right type of person andeverything, but it can be a big
learning curve.
So it's kind of a you know them, you know their capabilities,
but it might be a big learningcurve for them.
So it's kind of a you know atrade off a little bit there.
But, okay, great, are you?
Are you going to apply thatsame strategy to the salesperson
(21:28):
?
Are you just looking for asalesperson to basically come
work for you, or how are youapproaching that?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
So we're definitely hiring um the sales rep that has
sales experience.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe painting sales experience,
but we're definitely making surethat they have a sales
background with a provenexperience.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, that makes sense.
And what sort of compensationstructures?
That's like always a bigquestion is like compensation
structures how do I compensatemy production manager, or how do
I compensate my salesperson?
Have you found anything thatworks well with your project
manager?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah, so with the PMs we offer a base salary with a
commission based on productiontimes.
So we have a formula set inplace that if crews finish one
day, two days before theirallotted time, then the PM gets
(22:29):
a commission.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Okay.
So if the crews are beingefficient, the project manager
gets an additional commission ontop of their base salary.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Okay, cool, cool.
And then are you trying to dosales compensation similar, like
tied to sort of that efficiencygross profit as well, or what
are you thinking for thesalesperson compensation?
Speaker 2 (22:58):
For the sales, we've been messing around with a
45,000 base, a three percent uh,three percent commission on all
sales okay, so for and and whatdo you like a salesperson?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I know obviously you're closing about a million
yourself, but you're doingeverything else.
Are you kind of expecting a1.5million for a salesperson to
close like a good one?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Right, yep, and we're also just to add a little more
background on that structure.
The 3% we do plan to pay in thecheck.
That's right after when thecustomer makes the deposit.
So if they book the job,customer pays deposit, that 3%
(23:47):
is in their check.
The next pay period.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Nice, okay, so you're making sure you get that cash,
because that's a big thing withhaving a team is you've got to
have the cash to pay them.
Making sure that you have thatdeposit.
How much of a deposit do youtake?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Oh, cashflow is huge and and it was actually, I
forget it was one of thoseseminars, uh, where you did a
speaking on and everything youspoke about with the cashflow of
things.
It just hit it on point, youknow.
I mean you could have asuccessful business, but if the
cashflow is not there, it's,it's very damaging to to a
(24:27):
business.
Um, I'm sorry, what was thequestion?
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Oh, how much of a deposit are you taking?
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Oh, we're taking a 30%, Some we take 35%.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Nice, okay, yeah, so that easily covers your labor,
um, and, and you're, you're,you're marking a part of it, it
sounds like for your salesperson, which is great, because then
you have that already set aside,so that's awesome.
And your $45,000 base salary,which is, if they do, 1.5
(24:59):
million in revenue, that's about3%, as stated as a percentage
3% of the revenue.
Then on top of that they get a3% commission as well, so that's
about 6%.
Assuming they hit 1.5 millionin sales, that would be about 6%
of revenue going to them, whichthat sounds like a really good
compensation package.
(25:19):
That's very in line with what Itypically see across different
painting businesses, so thatlooks like a really good
compensation structure.
I know one of the big challengesthat some folks come into
contact with is you know youhave your production manager,
(25:42):
who is, in this case, you'recompensating him based off of
efficiency of your crews, andthen you have your salesperson
who's actually giving the bid.
You know they're giving theprice the customer, and I know
you haven't.
You might kind of have thisissue now because you're the
salesperson but how do you guysaddress, like, the situation
(26:05):
where the salesperson, but howdo you guys address the
situation where the salespersonmay have underbid the job, and
then the production manager ispotentially penalized for having
not much budget available andtherefore doesn't get a bonus.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Right, a bonus Right.
So right now, with me doing it,it's a little easier for me to
avoid that because I'm the onedoing it.
Obviously, mistakes happen.
I've had situations where I'veunderbidded jobs.
It happens.
We're transparent with ourcustomers.
Usually when it's underbiddedcustomers.
(26:49):
Usually when it's underbidded,it's usually because of
something that was unforeseen orthe project just ended up being
more difficult than what meetsthe eye, and my customers are
usually understanding in thatfact and we're able to work
something out where we canretain a little bit more to
cover that.
Anytime I add a change order,I'm always fair about it.
(27:11):
I always like to tell mycustomer hey, we're not trying
to kill you on this, we justwant to make ends meet for that
change order portion of theproject.
But for when a sales rep uhcomes in place, we have a
structure uh, it's a, it's anestimate, estimate guide sheet
(27:33):
where they're going to be ableto go through all this to make
sure that they're notunderbidding uh, based on
measurements and visual items.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yep, that makes sense .
I know that's good because thatcan be definitely.
I'm glad you're thinking aboutit because, like that is, that
can be definitely a frictionpoint between the production
manager and the salesperson.
You know, if you don't mitigateit right, you might have some
issues there.
I know some painting businesseshave actually also commissioned
(28:10):
the salesperson based off ofthe efficiency of the project
too, so that therefore, not onlythe project manager but also
the salesperson are bonus off ofgross profit or some metric you
know, efficiency metric so thatthey're all both on the same
page and work in terms of thesame goal.
Because the salesperson's goal,you know, typically is to book
(28:33):
as much as they can.
But if you can also throw inlike, but it also has to be
profitable, that can help alignthe incentives of the
salesperson and the productionmanager and so that they're more
working together instead ofworking against each other, like
I know.
For example, you know, jasonParis, paris painting.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah.
So Jason was talking to himabout how he compensates his
salesperson and his productionmanager and he was saying that
basically it's two factors.
Like you have your customersatisfaction metric, which can
be like Google reviews or a netpromoter score, and then also an
(29:21):
efficiency metric like grossprofit or time on the job, like
budgeted hours metric, likegross profit or time on the job,
like budgeted hours, and thosetwo numbers the salesperson and
the production manager arebonused off of those two numbers
.
So both the sales andproduction manager, so that
they're both kind of moving inthe same direction to ensure
(29:42):
that, one, they're getting aGoogle review or happy customer
getting a happy customer, andthen, two, it's a profitable
project.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, and that makes a ton of sense and hopefully we
don't run into that issue wherewe have the friction between the
sales and the PM.
But it's definitely somethingwe're going to have to look into
if that friction does appear.
And I appreciate that insightbecause that will really help us
when that time comes.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, absolutely no, I think.
Well, you've been supergenerous with your time, zach.
I mean I love what you're doingover there in Buffalo, new York
.
Wouldn't want to live inBuffalo, new York a little bit
too cold for me.
I'm in Orlando, florida, butI'm loving what you're doing
there.
It sounds like you have anoutstanding culture that's
bringing in the right people,and I like the way you think
(30:33):
about getting the folks thathave done the thing before.
Just have them do it for me.
So I'm super excited for thefuture of your company.
And do you have any lastthoughts for the audience or
anything before I let you gotoday?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, you know, just anyone that's listening, that
owns a painting business, justunderstand, as hard as it may be
, there's always light at thetunnel and, as cliche as that
sounds, I just I know how it is.
We all struggle here and there.
Keep pushing along becausethere's there's a lot to be
(31:11):
rewarded in this industry A lotof great people, you know.
Looking forward to seeing youat the upcoming events.
Always have a great time withyou, daniel, so looking forward
to see you and Cody up there.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Oh yeah, absolutely Zach.
It was good talking to you andfor the listeners.
We will see you next week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.