November 21, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode of The Profitable Painter Podcast, Daniel sits down with Hassan, owner of a fast-growing painting company out of Raleigh, North Carolina. Hassan shares how he and his wife went from frustrated homeowners dealing with unprofessional contractors to building a 1.8M+ painting business in just a few years.
Hassan breaks down the exact strategies that fueled their rapid growth — including a powerful on-site sales process, hiring a specialized marketing firm, building a call center partnership, and optimizing production rates across multiple crews. Whether you're struggling with lead flow, sales conversions, hiring, or scaling, this episode delivers real, actionable insights straight from someone who’s doing it at a high level.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How Hassan doubled revenue with a simple but game-changing on-site estimating process.
- The role COVID unexpectedly played in jump-starting their business.
- Why switching to an industry-specific marketing firm transformed their lead flow.
- How a call center boosted lead set rates to 40% — and dramatically lowered acquisition costs.
- The importance of building real production rates across crews (not just using generic guides).
- How Hassan built a lean, scalable structure with subs, a production manager, and outsourced admin help.
- His roadmap for hitting $2.6–$3 million in 2026.
If you're serious about growth, this is one of the most tactical, inspiring episodes yet.
Subscribe now and learn how to build a painting business that scales — one episode at a time.
For being a loyal listener, I want to send you a copy of my new book Profitable Painter. Inside, I’ll show you the exact frameworks that have helped painting businesses save big on taxes, increase profits, and scale with confidence
Head over to profitablepaintercpa.com/book and grab your copy today. Don’t wait — this is my gift to you for being part of the Profitable Painter community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple: to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running, and scaling a
professional painting business.
From the brushes and ladders tothe spreadsheets and balance
sheets, we've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice specifically
for you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
before making any significantfinancial decision.
SPEAKER_01 (00:43):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes, and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
Let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited today to speakwith Hassan out of Raleigh,
(01:04):
North Carolina.
He has an outstanding paintingbusiness out of Raleigh.
Welcome to the podcast, Hassan.
How's it going?
SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
Good, good.
Thanks, Daniel.
Excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
I'm excited to have you.
So for the listeners, could yougive folks an understanding of
how did you get started in thepainting industry and what have
been some major milestones alongthe way?
SPEAKER_02 (01:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Um we started our paintingcompany in 2019, um, end of
2019.
Uh how we got started, uh, it'sa little bit of a funny story.
So we our my wife and I, ourparents were always
entrepreneurs, so we knew wewanted to be entrepreneurs.
Um, you know, but we're yourtypical uh children of
(01:43):
immigrants.
So we, you know, we did the uhthe route where you go to
college, get a job, you enterthe corporate world.
Um, but at some point we knewthat we wanted to kind of get
out of the corporate world andstart our own business.
Uh we had no idea it would bepainting.
Uh, we were renovating our housein 2018 when we got married.
(02:04):
And during the renovation, wehad to deal with it's a lot of
trades, you know, painters,plumbers, electrician, drywall
guys, carpenters.
Uh, and we could quickly realizehow unprofessional just the
construction industry is.
Uh, people don't show up ontime, nothing is ever clear,
there's no date that's you know,completion date.
So we were, it was a bigheadache, and we were very
(02:27):
disappointed.
Um, and that's when we realizedthat we could do so much better.
Uh, my wife's background's indesign, so she went to uh ECU
School of Design.
So she's always loved, you know,renovation, construction.
She always loved painting.
Uh, and so she had this ideathat we would uh start a
painting company.
And uh we were convinced, basedon the experience that we got,
(02:50):
that we could do much betterjust by giving people just a
very uh an elevated experiencethan what they're used to
getting.
And so that's how we got startedin 2019.
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
Nice.
So you basically you experiencedunprofessional contractors and
like, man, we can do this waybetter.
Got into it.
Your your wife sounds like shehad a little bit of experience
with the design.
And so you you dove into that in2019.
How did that, that first coupleof years, what did that look
like?
SPEAKER_02 (03:20):
Uh, great question.
Um, we anticipated that it'd bea slow start, just like you
know, any business that youwould start.
Uh, one thing that really helpedus, sadly enough, was COVID.
Uh, everybody was at home, youknow, nobody was leaving their
house.
Uh, especially here in NorthCarolina, everybody wanted to
renovate.
Now that they're at home, theywant to paint, they want to, you
(03:41):
know, add on to the house, theywant to redo their deck.
And so we saw once COVIDstarted, I want to say a couple
months into COVID, we just saw amassive influx in leads.
Uh, the phone was ringing allthe time, people were calling
contractors, and contractorswere months out.
Uh, so for us, uh first year2020 was amazing.
(04:03):
Uh, you know, I was able toleave my job in the middle of
COVID.
Business just started to grow somuch, so fast, that we decided
one of us uh, you know, it wouldmake sense for one of us to
leave their jobs to run thecompany full time.
And uh, we made the decisionthat I would be the one to do
that.
So I left my job in 2020, rightaround June, started running our
(04:24):
company full-time, uh, and wejust hit the ground running, you
know, just meeting people whowould go do lunch and learns at
uh design firms, real estateoffices, um, just networking,
meeting a bunch of as manypeople as we can, um, doing a
lot of marketing.
And we just kind of picked upfrom there and kept the foot on
the gas.
And then going into 2021,business doubled from 2020, and
(04:49):
then we've just kind of seen uhan uptick uh every, you know,
every year after that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:57):
So it sounds like you so you got started in 2019
and um then COVID, a lot ofleads coming in from COVID, and
then in 2021 you doubled.
What's the revenue kind oflooking like from 2019 to 2025?
Like where have you kind ofgrown from there?
SPEAKER_02 (05:16):
Yeah.
Um, so I think to you know, westarted late in 2019, so we
didn't do a lot of projectstowards the end of the year.
Uh, I want to say our sales aremaybe under 20 grand.
Um we finished off 2020 at rightaround 300,000.
And then we've been able to uhyou know double that every year.
(05:36):
Uh 2021, we were right about600.
2022, we kind of hit a littlebit of a, you know, just a
little bit of a plateau.
So we kind of stayed aroundthere.
Uh, we changed some marketing,we implemented, you know, new
processes um things like that.
So we saw another jump uh goinginto 2022 and then in 2023.
(06:01):
Uh, it wasn't until probably2024, 2025 till we saw the
biggest increase.
And uh we just implemented justa really strong sales process.
Uh, we actually hired afull-time marketing firm to do
all of our marketing.
Uh, we hired a call center totake in all of our calls,
respond to our leads.
(06:22):
And so we saw the biggest jumpbetween uh 2023 and 2025,
usually about the year and ahalf there, is where we saw the
biggest increase.
Uh 2025, we are tracking about1.8 for the year.
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
1.8 uh anticipated or so far this year.
SPEAKER_02 (06:41):
Uh we're we're tracking 1.8 anticipated for the
year.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
Okay.
Nice.
All right.
And it sounds like so thatthat's a that's a huge increase.
Um and it sounds like part ofthat was because you you got a
full-time uh marketing firm andyou also got a uh a phone
answering service.
Is that what you attribute a lotof the growth, the most recent
(07:08):
growth to?
SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
Or yeah, yeah, I think those um those two
probably uh contributed themost.
Um I would say implementing astrong sales process was the
first thing that really helpedus get over that hump and start
to get more approvals.
Um our our sales process wasvery typical, you know, typical
(07:29):
of what you would see from youknow a business in the home
service industry.
Um we would go out, see what thecustomers' needs are, you know,
kind of take all of our notes,ask all of our questions, and
then we would leave an email theestimate later.
Um, we changed that to where wedo everything on site.
So now we have our tablets, wedo our estimates on site, we're
(07:50):
building out the estimate onsite, and then we're actually
sitting down um at the tablewith the homeowner and reviewing
the estimate while we're there.
Um, just doing everything onsite.
I want to say we saw asignificant jump in um our
approval rating.
So our close rate, I want to sayit was between 25 to 30 percent.
(08:12):
Um, once we introduced a reallystrong sales process and started
doing everything on site, uh,now we're consistently at about
50%, uh 50 to 60 percent uhapproval rating, close ratio.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
So you basically double at least double the
amount of folks that you'reclosing by changing the sales
process.
SPEAKER_02 (08:32):
For sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
So you you're doing the kind of the traditional
sales process of takingmeasurements and sending an
email later on, uh, and thatthat got you to about 600k, and
then you kind of switched it upand did an on-site presentation,
and that's kind of got you thepart of the reason why you got
to 1.8.
Um, is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (08:54):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And then the other part of it isit's a numbers game.
So once we, you know,implemented a really good sales
process and we knew this is whatwe wanted to do, we brought on a
full-time marketing firm to justhandle all of our marketing.
And so that definitelycontributed uh to the numbers
because obviously now we haveway more leads coming in.
(09:14):
So not only did you increaseyour close ratio, but you're
bringing in a ton more leads.
And so that helped ussignificantly get to the numbers
that we're doing today.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Okay.
And before, before you had themarketing um team on board, you
were just doing repeat andreferral work, or how were you
getting your leads before that?
SPEAKER_02 (09:33):
Good question.
Um, we've always gotten repeatand referral work.
Uh, you know, we've done areally good job of networking
and utilizing our circle.
So my wife is in the uh, she'swas in the design industry.
Now she's in commercial flooringsales.
Um, but just networking andusing our circle to get our get
our names out there and uh, youknow, just try to meet as many
(09:54):
people as possible.
Um but uh yeah, we uh just thosethose simple things um you know
really has really helped us, youknow, get to get to where we are
today.
SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (10:08):
So and the marketing, I'm sorry, you you
asked me about um you know whatwhat we're doing before we
brought on the marketing.
Um we were just doing our own.
You know, my wife was you knowtinkering around with Facebook,
just creating posts before andafter pictures.
Um, you know, but you learnreally quickly that if you if
you're not really uh if youreally don't know how to work
(10:31):
Facebook's business page, um,and you know, creating these
ads, monitoring the ads, youknow, figuring out how to work
the algorithm, you learn reallyquickly that you need to hire
somebody that does.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, there's a lot to it forsure.
Um it's changing all the time.
There's a a big update that justhappened a couple months ago,
the Andromeda update to the theface how Facebook ads are put
out there.
So you if you're doing it, youcan you you can do it, it's just
(11:04):
you gotta stay educated for sureon on it.
And uh it's hard to you know youit's like you have to basically
pay someone to teach you how todo it because it's it changes so
much, it's hard to even take acourse on this stuff because it
changes so often.
But um, yeah, so oftentimes it'seasier, like you said, to to get
someone who already knows whatthey're doing and have them take
(11:25):
care of it.
So it sounds like you you got tosix hundred K in revenue.
A lot of it was uh you kind ofrode the wave of COVID in terms
of all the the leads for peoplewanting to redo their homes
while they had some time sittingaround the house.
And then that got you to 600k.
(11:45):
You then you started focusing onyour sales process, making it
more compelling, doubled theamount of people that you
doubled the rate at which youclosed from 25% to 50%.
And then at that point, you'relike, okay, let's now that we
got our sales process dialed in,let's go ahead and get more
leads.
SPEAKER_02 (12:01):
So you hired a full-time marketing person, and
they're doing paid ads for you,or yeah, yeah, it's it's uh paid
paid ads through uh Facebook andInstagram.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Okay.
So they're doing paid ads uhthrough Meta, and and then you
also, you know, to so you'regetting more leads that way.
But you also mentioned you alsohave a phone answering service.
What does that look like and howdoes that help?
SPEAKER_02 (12:28):
Yeah, great question.
Um, so the company that does allof our marketing, they own a
sister company that's basicallya call center.
So the reason why we were veryintrigued by having them do that
service for us is becausethey're already running all of
our ads, they're uh, you know,doing all the marketing for us,
(12:48):
they're managing all thecontent.
So we send them the content,they build out the ads.
So, like, for example, whenwe're going into the winter
time, they take our content andthey create a bunch of really
good interior painting ads.
Going into the nicer monthswhere we're doing a lot of
exterior, they're kind of youknow changing that around, maybe
not putting so much intointerior, putting a little bit
(13:09):
into exterior.
Um, so when we learned about thecall center that they have, it
made the most sense to have theperson who's trying to bring you
the leads to respond to theleads.
So they basically do all themarketing, they get the leads to
come in, and then the callcenter then responds to all the
(13:30):
leads, reaches out, tries tobook it, you know, book a site
visit on our calendar, and thenthey also handle all the
incoming calls that we have uhthat just come in through the
phone lines.
So it just made sense where youhave one company that you're
working with that's doingeverything related to marketing
and getting the people on thephones and scheduling the site
visits.
(13:50):
At that point, we just need toshow up and just follow a really
strong sales process.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
Nice.
Okay, so they're not only justsitting back and taking calls
where where people are callingyou, they're actually that um
linked in with the marketingcompany.
And when those Facebook leadscome in, they'll actually do an
outbound call to get the lead toto get on the calendar.
So they're doing those outboundand actually setting the
appointment on your estimatecalendar for you.
SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
Correct, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:18):
Okay, yeah, that's that's awesome.
Do you happen to know what theset rate is for those leads?
SPEAKER_02 (14:24):
So we're currently at about 40%.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (14:28):
40% set rate.
SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
Yeah, that's a solid set rate.
And then you're you're you'resetting 40%, but you also
mentioned you're closing 50%.
Uh so that's a like a 20%conversion, which is huge.
SPEAKER_02 (14:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
And so I'm sure your customer acquisition costs are
very low.
Um do you know how much you payfor a lead by chance?
SPEAKER_02 (14:54):
Right now, I think we're close to about$30.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
Oh,$30 per lead?
Wow.
Okay.
And then you're you're you'resetting 40%.
So that's basically you have topay$75 to get a booked estimate.
I'm sorry, uh, a booked umappointment on the calendar to
do an estimate.
SPEAKER_02 (15:15):
Roughly, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:16):
Yeah.
So then, and then it you're onlyand you're booking one out of
two, so that means you're payinglike$150 for a closed deal,
basically.
SPEAKER_02 (15:25):
Roughly, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
Yeah, maybe so.
That's there might be somepeople that don't show or
cancel, so maybe$150 to$200.
So that that's super low, uh,which is amazing, which is
definitely testament to the setrate and the close rate being
super high.
Um and do you do you alreadyhave a salesperson in the in the
(15:50):
company, or is that stillsomething that you're managing?
SPEAKER_02 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, good question.
So um I'm I'm still doing allthe sales.
Um, I'm a hundred percenthands-off from all the projects
and the production.
Um so I'm still doing what Ienjoy the most, which is people
facing.
Uh, we had a part-timesalesperson over the summer, um,
but they were just part-time andand it was just a summer gig for
(16:13):
them.
Um, but going into 2026, we aregoing to start looking for a
full-time salesperson to where Ican step out a little bit and
you know, start to just workmore on the business and not so
much in the business.
SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
Yeah.
Cool.
Yeah, because I was gonna saythat 1.8 million is probably
like the the the high end ofwhat one person can close on
themselves, close themselves.
SPEAKER_02 (16:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Um we're definitely feeling likewe're getting to the point to
where I've kind of maxed out thethe most I could do um with just
doing sales full time.
Um, and that's you know, one ofthe reasons why we're 2026,
we're gonna bring on a full-timesalesperson.
I'll still continue to do somesales until we grow, you know,
(16:57):
kind of the next tier, and thenwe'll bring on, you know, a
second salesperson, and thenwe'll focus on a second
production person.
SPEAKER_01 (17:05):
Nice.
Okay, that that sounds like aplan.
Um and did you say that youalready have a production
manager or yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:14):
We have a production manager.
Um, he oversees five crews.
So we have five total subs.
Um, the thing that's reallyhelped us is our subs have been
with us for a very long time.
And so we have we had a reallygood system leading up to the
point when we hired a productionmanager.
Our subs uh manage their ownprojects, they do their own
(17:38):
walkthroughs, they pick up allthe materials, they pick up
their own paints.
Um, and I would just work withthe crew leader at each crew.
So we would have weekly calls,uh, we would meet weekly, we
would meet at job sites.
Um, you know, but when you havesomebody that's been with you
for so long and and they'redoing everything the way that
you want it done, and you uh youhave such a good thing going,
(17:59):
makes it a lot easier, you know,to run the business without you
having to physically be there.
Um, and we could have, you know,we could have held off on hiring
a production person a little bitlonger.
But in order to get ready forthe next jump that we want to do
in 2026, you know, we said itmakes sense to just go ahead and
bring on a full-time productionperson now, let them get
rolling, you know, in 2025.
(18:20):
That way, going into 2026, thatposition will just be 100% um,
you know, on their own.
And we wouldn't have to worryabout a full-time salesperson
and a full-time production guyat the same time.
SPEAKER_01 (18:31):
Okay.
So they're so they're gettingspun up.
And uh, how how much do you areyou expecting the production
manager to be able to produce ontheir own?
SPEAKER_02 (18:43):
So right now, um I would probably say right about
the the the same, the same maxas a salesperson as where I am
now.
I think right around the millionand a half mark.
And then you'd need to startthinking about another
production person.
SPEAKER_01 (18:57):
Okay.
And uh do you have an officeperson as well?
That's is are you?
I don't know if your wife isstill involved in the business
or not, or if she's yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
So um she does very little um for us, just really
more advisory, advisory things,um, you know, manages some of
the content that we submit, youknow, the types of content that
we take, um, you know, whenwe're at these job sites.
Uh, you know, she manages a lotof you know the stuff that we do
with the marketing, um, thewebsite, the design, the
(19:31):
branding.
Uh, but she's pretty muchhands-off of like the day-to-day
operations.
Um, I'm pretty much the adminperson, uh, but we have it set
up where, you know, when youhave Cruz doing the work, you
have a production personproducing the work.
We have a bookkeeper that uhthat you know manages our books.
We have an accountant, themarketing team does the
(19:51):
marketing, the cost centeranswers the calls.
So we've done a really good jobof you know putting all the
right pieces in place to wherewe can stay very lean on the
cost side for you know foremployees.
Um, so that's why it's easy forme to manage all the admin work
along with my sales, uh, becausewe have all these, you know,
people managing, you know, kindof the different uh different
(20:14):
aspects of the business.
SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
Nice.
So it sounds like you're you'rea busy guy, because you're
you're uh you have you're doingall the sales, you're doing the
a little bit of the admin, whichyou have help with that, and
obviously you're leading thecompany.
Um so but you're you're planningfor those future hires, which um
you're you're getting theproduction manager spun up,
(20:39):
you're uh bringing on asalesperson.
Uh I'm assuming is it thebeginning of 2026, or you're
already looking for one rightnow?
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Yeah, we're gonna start the process uh in the
beginning of 2026.
Um, as you know, just in theindustry, you know, December,
January, going into February,those are just very slow months
for us.
Um so we don't see the need tobring somebody on at the
beginning of the year.
But if we start the process inJanuary, hopefully by the
(21:08):
beginning of spring, you know,that person would have been you
know hired, onboarded, and justyou know, fully uh fully uh
autonomous.
SPEAKER_01 (21:18):
Nice.
Cool.
So what is what has been youknow growing from just getting
started, starting from scratchto now?
What's been the biggestchallenge that you've had to
overcome or or fix?
SPEAKER_02 (21:35):
Uh yeah, so the biggest challenge, um I'd say
the two biggest challenges.
One was finding the rightmarketing, finding the right
marketing company.
Um unfortunately, we didn't findthis company right away.
Um, there was some trial anderror.
So we went through severalcompanies before we actually
(21:55):
landed on this company and haveseen really good results.
But leading up to that, uh, whenwe decided it was time for us to
step out of doing marketing andbring somebody on, um, we tried
a few local guys, uh, peoplethat, you know, somebody that uh
someone else recommended,companies that we met online,
you know, just doing someresearch.
So I'd say that was one bigchallenge was just finding the
(22:16):
right company that's actuallygoing to produce the leads for
the amount of money that you'respending.
Um, and as you know, which youknow, many of uh your your
followers know, you know,marketing is a huge expense for
us, just for any paintingcompany or you know, home
service businesses in general,marketing is a very big expense.
So we struggled with that beforewe actually landed this company.
(22:36):
So that was that was a um thatwas pretty challenging.
Um and then just you know,figuring out the best estimating
process.
Um, you know, obviously we useproduction rate estimating, uh,
but as you know, differentcrews, some work faster, some
work slower.
You know, some painters can, youknow, uh get a room done in
significantly shorter time thansomebody else.
(22:58):
So really just honing in on theproduction rates and just trying
to make our our uh ourestimating process rock solid,
that was a little bitchallenging.
Um, there's always tweaks thatneed to be done, just like you
know, with anything else, youknow, you figure out ways to do
things faster, be moreefficient, you know, use
different materials, certainproducts.
(23:18):
Um, so that's always changing,but that was also challenging in
the beginning, you know, tryingto figure out okay, what's the
best estimating process where itcan be a hundred percent uh
dummy proof?
Because as you know, when webring on a salesperson or when
we brought on our firstsalesperson, we don't
necessarily want to bring on anestimator.
(23:39):
You know, we want a salesperson.
You don't really need to knowhow to estimate paint, you don't
need to um, you know, knoweverything about the painting
industry.
You just have to be a goodsalesperson and then just follow
this process and use these toolsthat we give you.
So uh I would say marketing andyou know creating a really good
solid estimating process weredefinitely the two biggest
(24:01):
challenges.
SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
That makes sense.
For finding a marketing company,you said you went through
several.
What what turned out to be likethe magic sauce that makes this
one work?
Why, why, why is uh what are youlooking for in a marketing
company and what what uh reallystarted to mesh that you had you
(25:11):
stay with the one that you'reworking with?
SPEAKER_02 (25:13):
Yeah.
Um so one the first thing thatthat impressed us is the this
marketing company specificallyworks with painters.
They don't do like a widevariety or wide range of home
service businesses, so they onlydo marketing for painting
companies.
The owner of the company uhactually started his own
(25:35):
painting company, and then hefigured out all the marketing
and what worked really well.
And then he decided he wanted tostart a marketing firm where he
would, you know, provide thosesame services for other painters
or other painting companies.
Um, and so I think that is oneof the things why they've just
done so well.
They know what works, they knowhow to target specific
(25:56):
clientele, um, you know, theyknow how to put the ad together
to be appealing.
Uh, a lot of their ads, usuallythey recommend running a certain
special.
This is what's worked reallywell for some companies, certain
regions, this type of specialworks really well.
So we definitely um, you know,follow their follow their lead
when it comes to the copy andyou know, how what kind of
(26:16):
specials we need to run, whatkind of discounts we need to
offer certain times of the year.
So I think just the fact thatthey uh they only focus on
painting companies and the ownercomes from the painting
industry, I think that thatreally helped.
Uh, you know, that helped usrealize, okay, this is you know,
and then quite frankly, just thewe just got a lot of leads, you
(26:39):
know, whatever they're doing hasbeen working.
SPEAKER_01 (26:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, they're doing somethingright.
I mean, the cost for lead superlow.
Uh, and you you're you'reclosing a lot of the leads, so
something's working for sure.
Uh, but yeah, it definitelymarketing company that
specializes in the industrydefinitely can knows knows the
(27:01):
ads or should know the ads andthe copy that work to get leads,
so that makes a lot of sense.
Um, cool.
And the other thing youmentioned was production rates
and what what did you do tobecause a lot of folks struggle
with this, and just just to makesure that we're on the same page
with uh the folks that arelistening, is you know,
(27:22):
production rates is just ameasure of how long it takes a
painter to paint a give a givensurface.
And this is helpful to, like youwere saying, give kind of a
dummy-proof process to asalesperson where they can just
measure the different surfaceson the home, and then they can
uh usually using software,calculate the the price to
(27:45):
charge the customer based off ofthe surface um type and uh
measurement of it.
And uh so how did you put theproduction rate process?
How did you get it dialed in?
Like, because I know some folksthey'll maybe start with the PCA
estimating guide, volume two hasa lot of production rates in
(28:06):
there, or they'll just get withtheir their their crews and
they'll like develop it from theground up, or they'll measure
how long it takes them to painta wall or a door and and just
kind of start from there, or acombination of that.
So, how did you guys get yourproduction rate style then?
SPEAKER_02 (28:23):
Yeah.
Uh so we we started off withwith a guide.
Um, but as you know, the guideis just a very basic blueprint
to start.
Uh, you ideally need to firstfigure out, which is what we
did, is we figured out what areour costs as a company?
You know, what are we spendingon marketing?
You know, what are we spendingon labor?
(28:44):
What are we spending on justbasic dues and subscriptions?
Um, and then you kind of startto work it backwards.
Okay, this is how much profit weneed to make.
These are the margins that wehave to make in order for this
business to be profitable.
Um, and then the second part ofit was we actually were at the
job site, just seeing what yourcrew can produce.
Um, you know, the PCA guide wasgreat, but again, it's not your
(29:09):
specific crew.
And these are the guys that areworking for you.
These are the guys that you haveto go by what they can produce.
Uh, and then from there, you tryto then see is there an average
among all of our groups?
You know, you can't just takeone crew and see what they're
producing and then assume thatthat's what your rate's going to
be moving forward, because maybeyour other four crews, some may
(29:30):
work faster, some may workslower.
So you have to really visit allthe job sites and really hone in
on what the crew is doing andhow long it's taken them to do
things.
And and we realize that we haveto be even more specific.
So if one crew is paintingkitchen cabinets and you're
trying to find what that rateis, then you have to find out
what the kitchen cabinet rate isfor all of your crews and then
just take the average.
(29:52):
Then we did the same thing forinterior, same thing for
exterior, same thing for walls,same thing for ceilings.
Um, and then we just basicallysaw what are our guys producing.
And this is kind of how we'regoing to start to build out the
the production rates.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
Okay.
So it sounds like the estimatingguide, the PCA's estimating
guide, volume two, is just likea starting point.
SPEAKER_02 (30:13):
It's a great starting point, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:15):
Yeah, but you really had to measure how long each of
your crews at how long it takesthem to do to paint the various
surfaces, because you have somefolks I would imagine that are
really good at paintingcabinets, and then others not so
much.
And so getting the average uhhelp dial in those those
production rates more so you'remore precise on your your
(30:38):
estimates.
SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
That's right.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (30:41):
Cool.
Awesome.
So um w right now You know, withyour where your business is
gonna hit around 1.8 million.
What do you think your biggestconstraint is in the business?
Like what's preventing you fromgrowing, doubling next year,
let's say.
What what would be what's thebig constraint you that that
you're trying to fix in yourbusiness right now?
SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
Yeah.
Um, I I wouldn't necessarily sayit's a constraint.
Um, I think the only thingthat's really stopping us from
doubling is just, you know,adding more to the to the uh
marketing spend.
So once you figured out your uhyour estimating process, your
sales process, and yourproduction process, and you have
(31:24):
the right people in place.
And then the bigger part of thatwas the marketing.
Once you figured that out, atthat point, just to scale, all
it is is just throwing moremoney at the marketing.
So if you're spending this muchand your sales is this much,
maybe if you spend X amountmore, your sales will be this
much.
At that point, scaling becomeseasy because you want to hire
(31:45):
another salesperson, great.
Add this much more to themarketing spend, you have those
leads coming in to support thatperson.
Six months, 10 months down theroad, you want to bring on
another salesperson, add thismuch to the ad spend, and then
the cycle just continues.
At that point, you can grow asbig as you want, you can stay as
small as you want.
Um, so I wouldn't necessarilysay it's a constraint, um, but
(32:07):
we're really trying to make allof our process bulletproof
before we bring on a full-timesalesperson.
Because once we do that, at thatpoint, the sales uh bringing on
more and more salespeople isgonna happen fairly quickly.
So uh our goal is if we bring ona salesperson, you know, maybe
beginning spring, by mid-summer,end of summer, we're already
(32:29):
going to start figuring outanother salesperson.
Because all the processes are inplace at that point, it's just a
matter of bring them on, spendone ads.
SPEAKER_01 (32:38):
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, I think that that that uhI would agree because right now
I would think that you are thebottleneck for now, you know,
until you can get thatsalesperson in there, and then
that'll free you up to justfocus really on hiring and like
you said, find those key rolesand making sure they're be being
(33:01):
put in place uh and and dialingdialing in the the ad spend to
to grow uh appropriately.
And uh yeah, that's exciting.
Um so are you expecting a bigyear for 2026?
SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
Yeah, yeah.
For 2026, our goal is to finishthe year somewhere between 2.6
and 3 million.
SPEAKER_01 (33:24):
Nice.
Be awesome.
Excited to to see that happen.
Cool.
Well, I I'm really uh thankfulfor you coming on and sharing
what you've learned over thelast several years, and uh,
think you've built somethingreally cool.
And are there any last thoughtsor asks of the audience before
we let you go today?
SPEAKER_02 (33:43):
Um, no, no, just um, you know, just uh as far as the
audience, I would say just youknow, stick to it.
Stick to it.
Um try to be uncomfortable.
You know, human nature, we weget into a little comfort zone
and we just stay complacent, youknow.
Uh especially when you firststart a business and you start
(34:04):
to see a little bit of success,it's very easy to get complacent
because you've seen somesuccess, you're a business owner
now, you have a lot morefreedom, your schedule's yours,
you don't really have to reportto anybody.
So it's easy to just kind ofstay on that high and just ride
that out for as long as you can.
Um, but then you quickly realizelike, okay, this it's time to
really take it to the nextlevel.
(34:26):
And once you start to seeyourself getting to those
levels, um, you know, it's it'samazing what it does to your
confidence and you know themotivation to want to continue
growing.
So um I would say just stick toit and constantly get up and
grind.
Get up and grind.
SPEAKER_01 (34:43):
Get up and grind, love it.
All right, Hassan.
I really appreciate your timetoday.
Thank you for sharing.
And uh enjoyed it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And for the audience, with that,we will see you next week.
SPEAKER_02 (34:58):
Thanks, Daniel.
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple: to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running, and scaling a
professional painting business.
From the brushes and ladders tothe spreadsheets and balance
sheets, we've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice specifically
for you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
before making any significantfinancial decision.
SPEAKER_01 (00:43):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes, and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
Let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited today to speakwith Hassan out of Raleigh,
(01:04):
North Carolina.
He has an outstanding paintingbusiness out of Raleigh.
Welcome to the podcast, Hassan.
How's it going?
SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
Good, good.
Thanks, Daniel.
Excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
I'm excited to have you.
So for the listeners, could yougive folks an understanding of
how did you get started in thepainting industry and what have
been some major milestones alongthe way?
SPEAKER_02 (01:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Um we started our paintingcompany in 2019, um, end of
2019.
Uh how we got started, uh, it'sa little bit of a funny story.
So we our my wife and I, ourparents were always
entrepreneurs, so we knew wewanted to be entrepreneurs.
Um, you know, but we're yourtypical uh children of
(01:43):
immigrants.
So we, you know, we did the uhthe route where you go to
college, get a job, you enterthe corporate world.
Um, but at some point we knewthat we wanted to kind of get
out of the corporate world andstart our own business.
Uh we had no idea it would bepainting.
Uh, we were renovating our housein 2018 when we got married.
(02:04):
And during the renovation, wehad to deal with it's a lot of
trades, you know, painters,plumbers, electrician, drywall
guys, carpenters.
Uh, and we could quickly realizehow unprofessional just the
construction industry is.
Uh, people don't show up ontime, nothing is ever clear,
there's no date that's you know,completion date.
So we were, it was a bigheadache, and we were very
(02:27):
disappointed.
Um, and that's when we realizedthat we could do so much better.
Uh, my wife's background's indesign, so she went to uh ECU
School of Design.
So she's always loved, you know,renovation, construction.
She always loved painting.
Uh, and so she had this ideathat we would uh start a
painting company.
And uh we were convinced, basedon the experience that we got,
(02:50):
that we could do much betterjust by giving people just a
very uh an elevated experiencethan what they're used to
getting.
And so that's how we got startedin 2019.
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
Nice.
So you basically you experiencedunprofessional contractors and
like, man, we can do this waybetter.
Got into it.
Your your wife sounds like shehad a little bit of experience
with the design.
And so you you dove into that in2019.
How did that, that first coupleof years, what did that look
like?
SPEAKER_02 (03:20):
Uh, great question.
Um, we anticipated that it'd bea slow start, just like you
know, any business that youwould start.
Uh, one thing that really helpedus, sadly enough, was COVID.
Uh, everybody was at home, youknow, nobody was leaving their
house.
Uh, especially here in NorthCarolina, everybody wanted to
renovate.
Now that they're at home, theywant to paint, they want to, you
(03:41):
know, add on to the house, theywant to redo their deck.
And so we saw once COVIDstarted, I want to say a couple
months into COVID, we just saw amassive influx in leads.
Uh, the phone was ringing allthe time, people were calling
contractors, and contractorswere months out.
Uh, so for us, uh first year2020 was amazing.
(04:03):
Uh, you know, I was able toleave my job in the middle of
COVID.
Business just started to grow somuch, so fast, that we decided
one of us uh, you know, it wouldmake sense for one of us to
leave their jobs to run thecompany full time.
And uh, we made the decisionthat I would be the one to do
that.
So I left my job in 2020, rightaround June, started running our
(04:24):
company full-time, uh, and wejust hit the ground running, you
know, just meeting people whowould go do lunch and learns at
uh design firms, real estateoffices, um, just networking,
meeting a bunch of as manypeople as we can, um, doing a
lot of marketing.
And we just kind of picked upfrom there and kept the foot on
the gas.
And then going into 2021,business doubled from 2020, and
(04:49):
then we've just kind of seen uhan uptick uh every, you know,
every year after that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:57):
So it sounds like you so you got started in 2019
and um then COVID, a lot ofleads coming in from COVID, and
then in 2021 you doubled.
What's the revenue kind oflooking like from 2019 to 2025?
Like where have you kind ofgrown from there?
SPEAKER_02 (05:16):
Yeah.
Um, so I think to you know, westarted late in 2019, so we
didn't do a lot of projectstowards the end of the year.
Uh, I want to say our sales aremaybe under 20 grand.
Um we finished off 2020 at rightaround 300,000.
And then we've been able to uhyou know double that every year.
(05:36):
Uh 2021, we were right about600.
2022, we kind of hit a littlebit of a, you know, just a
little bit of a plateau.
So we kind of stayed aroundthere.
Uh, we changed some marketing,we implemented, you know, new
processes um things like that.
So we saw another jump uh goinginto 2022 and then in 2023.
(06:01):
Uh, it wasn't until probably2024, 2025 till we saw the
biggest increase.
And uh we just implemented justa really strong sales process.
Uh, we actually hired afull-time marketing firm to do
all of our marketing.
Uh, we hired a call center totake in all of our calls,
respond to our leads.
(06:22):
And so we saw the biggest jumpbetween uh 2023 and 2025,
usually about the year and ahalf there, is where we saw the
biggest increase.
Uh 2025, we are tracking about1.8 for the year.
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
1.8 uh anticipated or so far this year.
SPEAKER_02 (06:41):
Uh we're we're tracking 1.8 anticipated for the
year.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
Okay.
Nice.
All right.
And it sounds like so thatthat's a that's a huge increase.
Um and it sounds like part ofthat was because you you got a
full-time uh marketing firm andyou also got a uh a phone
answering service.
Is that what you attribute a lotof the growth, the most recent
(07:08):
growth to?
SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
Or yeah, yeah, I think those um those two
probably uh contributed themost.
Um I would say implementing astrong sales process was the
first thing that really helpedus get over that hump and start
to get more approvals.
Um our our sales process wasvery typical, you know, typical
(07:29):
of what you would see from youknow a business in the home
service industry.
Um we would go out, see what thecustomers' needs are, you know,
kind of take all of our notes,ask all of our questions, and
then we would leave an email theestimate later.
Um, we changed that to where wedo everything on site.
So now we have our tablets, wedo our estimates on site, we're
(07:50):
building out the estimate onsite, and then we're actually
sitting down um at the tablewith the homeowner and reviewing
the estimate while we're there.
Um, just doing everything onsite.
I want to say we saw asignificant jump in um our
approval rating.
So our close rate, I want to sayit was between 25 to 30 percent.
(08:12):
Um, once we introduced a reallystrong sales process and started
doing everything on site, uh,now we're consistently at about
50%, uh 50 to 60 percent uhapproval rating, close ratio.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
So you basically double at least double the
amount of folks that you'reclosing by changing the sales
process.
SPEAKER_02 (08:32):
For sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
So you you're doing the kind of the traditional
sales process of takingmeasurements and sending an
email later on, uh, and thatthat got you to about 600k, and
then you kind of switched it upand did an on-site presentation,
and that's kind of got you thepart of the reason why you got
to 1.8.
Um, is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (08:54):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And then the other part of it isit's a numbers game.
So once we, you know,implemented a really good sales
process and we knew this is whatwe wanted to do, we brought on a
full-time marketing firm to justhandle all of our marketing.
And so that definitelycontributed uh to the numbers
because obviously now we haveway more leads coming in.
(09:14):
So not only did you increaseyour close ratio, but you're
bringing in a ton more leads.
And so that helped ussignificantly get to the numbers
that we're doing today.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Okay.
And before, before you had themarketing um team on board, you
were just doing repeat andreferral work, or how were you
getting your leads before that?
SPEAKER_02 (09:33):
Good question.
Um, we've always gotten repeatand referral work.
Uh, you know, we've done areally good job of networking
and utilizing our circle.
So my wife is in the uh, she'swas in the design industry.
Now she's in commercial flooringsales.
Um, but just networking andusing our circle to get our get
our names out there and uh, youknow, just try to meet as many
(09:54):
people as possible.
Um but uh yeah, we uh just thosethose simple things um you know
really has really helped us, youknow, get to get to where we are
today.
SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (10:08):
So and the marketing, I'm sorry, you you
asked me about um you know whatwhat we're doing before we
brought on the marketing.
Um we were just doing our own.
You know, my wife was you knowtinkering around with Facebook,
just creating posts before andafter pictures.
Um, you know, but you learnreally quickly that if you if
you're not really uh if youreally don't know how to work
(10:31):
Facebook's business page, um,and you know, creating these
ads, monitoring the ads, youknow, figuring out how to work
the algorithm, you learn reallyquickly that you need to hire
somebody that does.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, there's a lot to it forsure.
Um it's changing all the time.
There's a a big update that justhappened a couple months ago,
the Andromeda update to the theface how Facebook ads are put
out there.
So you if you're doing it, youcan you you can do it, it's just
(11:04):
you gotta stay educated for sureon on it.
And uh it's hard to you know youit's like you have to basically
pay someone to teach you how todo it because it's it changes so
much, it's hard to even take acourse on this stuff because it
changes so often.
But um, yeah, so oftentimes it'seasier, like you said, to to get
someone who already knows whatthey're doing and have them take
(11:25):
care of it.
So it sounds like you you got tosix hundred K in revenue.
A lot of it was uh you kind ofrode the wave of COVID in terms
of all the the leads for peoplewanting to redo their homes
while they had some time sittingaround the house.
And then that got you to 600k.
(11:45):
You then you started focusing onyour sales process, making it
more compelling, doubled theamount of people that you
doubled the rate at which youclosed from 25% to 50%.
And then at that point, you'relike, okay, let's now that we
got our sales process dialed in,let's go ahead and get more
leads.
SPEAKER_02 (12:01):
So you hired a full-time marketing person, and
they're doing paid ads for you,or yeah, yeah, it's it's uh paid
paid ads through uh Facebook andInstagram.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Okay.
So they're doing paid ads uhthrough Meta, and and then you
also, you know, to so you'regetting more leads that way.
But you also mentioned you alsohave a phone answering service.
What does that look like and howdoes that help?
SPEAKER_02 (12:28):
Yeah, great question.
Um, so the company that does allof our marketing, they own a
sister company that's basicallya call center.
So the reason why we were veryintrigued by having them do that
service for us is becausethey're already running all of
our ads, they're uh, you know,doing all the marketing for us,
(12:48):
they're managing all thecontent.
So we send them the content,they build out the ads.
So, like, for example, whenwe're going into the winter
time, they take our content andthey create a bunch of really
good interior painting ads.
Going into the nicer monthswhere we're doing a lot of
exterior, they're kind of youknow changing that around, maybe
not putting so much intointerior, putting a little bit
(13:09):
into exterior.
Um, so when we learned about thecall center that they have, it
made the most sense to have theperson who's trying to bring you
the leads to respond to theleads.
So they basically do all themarketing, they get the leads to
come in, and then the callcenter then responds to all the
(13:30):
leads, reaches out, tries tobook it, you know, book a site
visit on our calendar, and thenthey also handle all the
incoming calls that we have uhthat just come in through the
phone lines.
So it just made sense where youhave one company that you're
working with that's doingeverything related to marketing
and getting the people on thephones and scheduling the site
visits.
(13:50):
At that point, we just need toshow up and just follow a really
strong sales process.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
Nice.
Okay, so they're not only justsitting back and taking calls
where where people are callingyou, they're actually that um
linked in with the marketingcompany.
And when those Facebook leadscome in, they'll actually do an
outbound call to get the lead toto get on the calendar.
So they're doing those outboundand actually setting the
appointment on your estimatecalendar for you.
SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
Correct, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:18):
Okay, yeah, that's that's awesome.
Do you happen to know what theset rate is for those leads?
SPEAKER_02 (14:24):
So we're currently at about 40%.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (14:28):
40% set rate.
SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
Yeah, that's a solid set rate.
And then you're you're you'resetting 40%, but you also
mentioned you're closing 50%.
Uh so that's a like a 20%conversion, which is huge.
SPEAKER_02 (14:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
And so I'm sure your customer acquisition costs are
very low.
Um do you know how much you payfor a lead by chance?
SPEAKER_02 (14:54):
Right now, I think we're close to about$30.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
Oh,$30 per lead?
Wow.
Okay.
And then you're you're you'resetting 40%.
So that's basically you have topay$75 to get a booked estimate.
I'm sorry, uh, a booked umappointment on the calendar to
do an estimate.
SPEAKER_02 (15:15):
Roughly, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:16):
Yeah.
So then, and then it you're onlyand you're booking one out of
two, so that means you're payinglike$150 for a closed deal,
basically.
SPEAKER_02 (15:25):
Roughly, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
Yeah, maybe so.
That's there might be somepeople that don't show or
cancel, so maybe$150 to$200.
So that that's super low, uh,which is amazing, which is
definitely testament to the setrate and the close rate being
super high.
Um and do you do you alreadyhave a salesperson in the in the
(15:50):
company, or is that stillsomething that you're managing?
SPEAKER_02 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, good question.
So um I'm I'm still doing allthe sales.
Um, I'm a hundred percenthands-off from all the projects
and the production.
Um so I'm still doing what Ienjoy the most, which is people
facing.
Uh, we had a part-timesalesperson over the summer, um,
but they were just part-time andand it was just a summer gig for
(16:13):
them.
Um, but going into 2026, we aregoing to start looking for a
full-time salesperson to where Ican step out a little bit and
you know, start to just workmore on the business and not so
much in the business.
SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
Yeah.
Cool.
Yeah, because I was gonna saythat 1.8 million is probably
like the the the high end ofwhat one person can close on
themselves, close themselves.
SPEAKER_02 (16:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Um we're definitely feeling likewe're getting to the point to
where I've kind of maxed out thethe most I could do um with just
doing sales full time.
Um, and that's you know, one ofthe reasons why we're 2026,
we're gonna bring on a full-timesalesperson.
I'll still continue to do somesales until we grow, you know,
(16:57):
kind of the next tier, and thenwe'll bring on, you know, a
second salesperson, and thenwe'll focus on a second
production person.
SPEAKER_01 (17:05):
Nice.
Okay, that that sounds like aplan.
Um and did you say that youalready have a production
manager or yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:14):
We have a production manager.
Um, he oversees five crews.
So we have five total subs.
Um, the thing that's reallyhelped us is our subs have been
with us for a very long time.
And so we have we had a reallygood system leading up to the
point when we hired a productionmanager.
Our subs uh manage their ownprojects, they do their own
(17:38):
walkthroughs, they pick up allthe materials, they pick up
their own paints.
Um, and I would just work withthe crew leader at each crew.
So we would have weekly calls,uh, we would meet weekly, we
would meet at job sites.
Um, you know, but when you havesomebody that's been with you
for so long and and they'redoing everything the way that
you want it done, and you uh youhave such a good thing going,
(17:59):
makes it a lot easier, you know,to run the business without you
having to physically be there.
Um, and we could have, you know,we could have held off on hiring
a production person a little bitlonger.
But in order to get ready forthe next jump that we want to do
in 2026, you know, we said itmakes sense to just go ahead and
bring on a full-time productionperson now, let them get
rolling, you know, in 2025.
(18:20):
That way, going into 2026, thatposition will just be 100% um,
you know, on their own.
And we wouldn't have to worryabout a full-time salesperson
and a full-time production guyat the same time.
SPEAKER_01 (18:31):
Okay.
So they're so they're gettingspun up.
And uh, how how much do you areyou expecting the production
manager to be able to produce ontheir own?
SPEAKER_02 (18:43):
So right now, um I would probably say right about
the the the same, the same maxas a salesperson as where I am
now.
I think right around the millionand a half mark.
And then you'd need to startthinking about another
production person.
SPEAKER_01 (18:57):
Okay.
And uh do you have an officeperson as well?
That's is are you?
I don't know if your wife isstill involved in the business
or not, or if she's yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
So um she does very little um for us, just really
more advisory, advisory things,um, you know, manages some of
the content that we submit, youknow, the types of content that
we take, um, you know, whenwe're at these job sites.
Uh, you know, she manages a lotof you know the stuff that we do
with the marketing, um, thewebsite, the design, the
(19:31):
branding.
Uh, but she's pretty muchhands-off of like the day-to-day
operations.
Um, I'm pretty much the adminperson, uh, but we have it set
up where, you know, when youhave Cruz doing the work, you
have a production personproducing the work.
We have a bookkeeper that uhthat you know manages our books.
We have an accountant, themarketing team does the
(19:51):
marketing, the cost centeranswers the calls.
So we've done a really good jobof you know putting all the
right pieces in place to wherewe can stay very lean on the
cost side for you know foremployees.
Um, so that's why it's easy forme to manage all the admin work
along with my sales, uh, becausewe have all these, you know,
people managing, you know, kindof the different uh different
(20:14):
aspects of the business.
SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
Nice.
So it sounds like you're you'rea busy guy, because you're
you're uh you have you're doingall the sales, you're doing the
a little bit of the admin, whichyou have help with that, and
obviously you're leading thecompany.
Um so but you're you're planningfor those future hires, which um
you're you're getting theproduction manager spun up,
(20:39):
you're uh bringing on asalesperson.
Uh I'm assuming is it thebeginning of 2026, or you're
already looking for one rightnow?
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Yeah, we're gonna start the process uh in the
beginning of 2026.
Um, as you know, just in theindustry, you know, December,
January, going into February,those are just very slow months
for us.
Um so we don't see the need tobring somebody on at the
beginning of the year.
But if we start the process inJanuary, hopefully by the
(21:08):
beginning of spring, you know,that person would have been you
know hired, onboarded, and justyou know, fully uh fully uh
autonomous.
SPEAKER_01 (21:18):
Nice.
Cool.
So what is what has been youknow growing from just getting
started, starting from scratchto now?
What's been the biggestchallenge that you've had to
overcome or or fix?
SPEAKER_02 (21:35):
Uh yeah, so the biggest challenge, um I'd say
the two biggest challenges.
One was finding the rightmarketing, finding the right
marketing company.
Um unfortunately, we didn't findthis company right away.
Um, there was some trial anderror.
So we went through severalcompanies before we actually
(21:55):
landed on this company and haveseen really good results.
But leading up to that, uh, whenwe decided it was time for us to
step out of doing marketing andbring somebody on, um, we tried
a few local guys, uh, peoplethat, you know, somebody that uh
someone else recommended,companies that we met online,
you know, just doing someresearch.
So I'd say that was one bigchallenge was just finding the
(22:16):
right company that's actuallygoing to produce the leads for
the amount of money that you'respending.
Um, and as you know, which youknow, many of uh your your
followers know, you know,marketing is a huge expense for
us, just for any paintingcompany or you know, home
service businesses in general,marketing is a very big expense.
So we struggled with that beforewe actually landed this company.
(22:36):
So that was that was a um thatwas pretty challenging.
Um and then just you know,figuring out the best estimating
process.
Um, you know, obviously we useproduction rate estimating, uh,
but as you know, differentcrews, some work faster, some
work slower.
You know, some painters can, youknow, uh get a room done in
significantly shorter time thansomebody else.
(22:58):
So really just honing in on theproduction rates and just trying
to make our our uh ourestimating process rock solid,
that was a little bitchallenging.
Um, there's always tweaks thatneed to be done, just like you
know, with anything else, youknow, you figure out ways to do
things faster, be moreefficient, you know, use
different materials, certainproducts.
(23:18):
Um, so that's always changing,but that was also challenging in
the beginning, you know, tryingto figure out okay, what's the
best estimating process where itcan be a hundred percent uh
dummy proof?
Because as you know, when webring on a salesperson or when
we brought on our firstsalesperson, we don't
necessarily want to bring on anestimator.
(23:39):
You know, we want a salesperson.
You don't really need to knowhow to estimate paint, you don't
need to um, you know, knoweverything about the painting
industry.
You just have to be a goodsalesperson and then just follow
this process and use these toolsthat we give you.
So uh I would say marketing andyou know creating a really good
solid estimating process weredefinitely the two biggest
(24:01):
challenges.
SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
That makes sense.
For finding a marketing company,you said you went through
several.
What what turned out to be likethe magic sauce that makes this
one work?
Why, why, why is uh what are youlooking for in a marketing
company and what what uh reallystarted to mesh that you had you
(25:11):
stay with the one that you'reworking with?
SPEAKER_02 (25:13):
Yeah.
Um so one the first thing thatthat impressed us is the this
marketing company specificallyworks with painters.
They don't do like a widevariety or wide range of home
service businesses, so they onlydo marketing for painting
companies.
The owner of the company uhactually started his own
(25:35):
painting company, and then hefigured out all the marketing
and what worked really well.
And then he decided he wanted tostart a marketing firm where he
would, you know, provide thosesame services for other painters
or other painting companies.
Um, and so I think that is oneof the things why they've just
done so well.
They know what works, they knowhow to target specific
(25:56):
clientele, um, you know, theyknow how to put the ad together
to be appealing.
Uh, a lot of their ads, usuallythey recommend running a certain
special.
This is what's worked reallywell for some companies, certain
regions, this type of specialworks really well.
So we definitely um, you know,follow their follow their lead
when it comes to the copy andyou know, how what kind of
(26:16):
specials we need to run, whatkind of discounts we need to
offer certain times of the year.
So I think just the fact thatthey uh they only focus on
painting companies and the ownercomes from the painting
industry, I think that thatreally helped.
Uh, you know, that helped usrealize, okay, this is you know,
and then quite frankly, just thewe just got a lot of leads, you
(26:39):
know, whatever they're doing hasbeen working.
SPEAKER_01 (26:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, they're doing somethingright.
I mean, the cost for lead superlow.
Uh, and you you're you'reclosing a lot of the leads, so
something's working for sure.
Uh, but yeah, it definitelymarketing company that
specializes in the industrydefinitely can knows knows the
(27:01):
ads or should know the ads andthe copy that work to get leads,
so that makes a lot of sense.
Um, cool.
And the other thing youmentioned was production rates
and what what did you do tobecause a lot of folks struggle
with this, and just just to makesure that we're on the same page
with uh the folks that arelistening, is you know,
(27:22):
production rates is just ameasure of how long it takes a
painter to paint a give a givensurface.
And this is helpful to, like youwere saying, give kind of a
dummy-proof process to asalesperson where they can just
measure the different surfaceson the home, and then they can
uh usually using software,calculate the the price to
(27:45):
charge the customer based off ofthe surface um type and uh
measurement of it.
And uh so how did you put theproduction rate process?
How did you get it dialed in?
Like, because I know some folksthey'll maybe start with the PCA
estimating guide, volume two hasa lot of production rates in
(28:06):
there, or they'll just get withtheir their their crews and
they'll like develop it from theground up, or they'll measure
how long it takes them to painta wall or a door and and just
kind of start from there, or acombination of that.
So, how did you guys get yourproduction rate style then?
SPEAKER_02 (28:23):
Yeah.
Uh so we we started off withwith a guide.
Um, but as you know, the guideis just a very basic blueprint
to start.
Uh, you ideally need to firstfigure out, which is what we
did, is we figured out what areour costs as a company?
You know, what are we spendingon marketing?
You know, what are we spendingon labor?
(28:44):
What are we spending on justbasic dues and subscriptions?
Um, and then you kind of startto work it backwards.
Okay, this is how much profit weneed to make.
These are the margins that wehave to make in order for this
business to be profitable.
Um, and then the second part ofit was we actually were at the
job site, just seeing what yourcrew can produce.
Um, you know, the PCA guide wasgreat, but again, it's not your
(29:09):
specific crew.
And these are the guys that areworking for you.
These are the guys that you haveto go by what they can produce.
Uh, and then from there, you tryto then see is there an average
among all of our groups?
You know, you can't just takeone crew and see what they're
producing and then assume thatthat's what your rate's going to
be moving forward, because maybeyour other four crews, some may
(29:30):
work faster, some may workslower.
So you have to really visit allthe job sites and really hone in
on what the crew is doing andhow long it's taken them to do
things.
And and we realize that we haveto be even more specific.
So if one crew is paintingkitchen cabinets and you're
trying to find what that rateis, then you have to find out
what the kitchen cabinet rate isfor all of your crews and then
just take the average.
(29:52):
Then we did the same thing forinterior, same thing for
exterior, same thing for walls,same thing for ceilings.
Um, and then we just basicallysaw what are our guys producing.
And this is kind of how we'regoing to start to build out the
the production rates.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
Okay.
So it sounds like the estimatingguide, the PCA's estimating
guide, volume two, is just likea starting point.
SPEAKER_02 (30:13):
It's a great starting point, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:15):
Yeah, but you really had to measure how long each of
your crews at how long it takesthem to do to paint the various
surfaces, because you have somefolks I would imagine that are
really good at paintingcabinets, and then others not so
much.
And so getting the average uhhelp dial in those those
production rates more so you'remore precise on your your
(30:38):
estimates.
SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
That's right.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (30:41):
Cool.
Awesome.
So um w right now You know, withyour where your business is
gonna hit around 1.8 million.
What do you think your biggestconstraint is in the business?
Like what's preventing you fromgrowing, doubling next year,
let's say.
What what would be what's thebig constraint you that that
you're trying to fix in yourbusiness right now?
SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
Yeah.
Um, I I wouldn't necessarily sayit's a constraint.
Um, I think the only thingthat's really stopping us from
doubling is just, you know,adding more to the to the uh
marketing spend.
So once you figured out your uhyour estimating process, your
sales process, and yourproduction process, and you have
(31:24):
the right people in place.
And then the bigger part of thatwas the marketing.
Once you figured that out, atthat point, just to scale, all
it is is just throwing moremoney at the marketing.
So if you're spending this muchand your sales is this much,
maybe if you spend X amountmore, your sales will be this
much.
At that point, scaling becomeseasy because you want to hire
(31:45):
another salesperson, great.
Add this much more to themarketing spend, you have those
leads coming in to support thatperson.
Six months, 10 months down theroad, you want to bring on
another salesperson, add thismuch to the ad spend, and then
the cycle just continues.
At that point, you can grow asbig as you want, you can stay as
small as you want.
Um, so I wouldn't necessarilysay it's a constraint, um, but
(32:07):
we're really trying to make allof our process bulletproof
before we bring on a full-timesalesperson.
Because once we do that, at thatpoint, the sales uh bringing on
more and more salespeople isgonna happen fairly quickly.
So uh our goal is if we bring ona salesperson, you know, maybe
beginning spring, by mid-summer,end of summer, we're already
(32:29):
going to start figuring outanother salesperson.
Because all the processes are inplace at that point, it's just a
matter of bring them on, spendone ads.
SPEAKER_01 (32:38):
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, I think that that that uhI would agree because right now
I would think that you are thebottleneck for now, you know,
until you can get thatsalesperson in there, and then
that'll free you up to justfocus really on hiring and like
you said, find those key rolesand making sure they're be being
(33:01):
put in place uh and and dialingdialing in the the ad spend to
to grow uh appropriately.
And uh yeah, that's exciting.
Um so are you expecting a bigyear for 2026?
SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
Yeah, yeah.
For 2026, our goal is to finishthe year somewhere between 2.6
and 3 million.
SPEAKER_01 (33:24):
Nice.
Be awesome.
Excited to to see that happen.
Cool.
Well, I I'm really uh thankfulfor you coming on and sharing
what you've learned over thelast several years, and uh,
think you've built somethingreally cool.
And are there any last thoughtsor asks of the audience before
we let you go today?
SPEAKER_02 (33:43):
Um, no, no, just um, you know, just uh as far as the
audience, I would say just youknow, stick to it.
Stick to it.
Um try to be uncomfortable.
You know, human nature, we weget into a little comfort zone
and we just stay complacent, youknow.
Uh especially when you firststart a business and you start
(34:04):
to see a little bit of success,it's very easy to get complacent
because you've seen somesuccess, you're a business owner
now, you have a lot morefreedom, your schedule's yours,
you don't really have to reportto anybody.
So it's easy to just kind ofstay on that high and just ride
that out for as long as you can.
Um, but then you quickly realizelike, okay, this it's time to
really take it to the nextlevel.
(34:26):
And once you start to seeyourself getting to those
levels, um, you know, it's it'samazing what it does to your
confidence and you know themotivation to want to continue
growing.
So um I would say just stick toit and constantly get up and
grind.
Get up and grind.
SPEAKER_01 (34:43):
Get up and grind, love it.
All right, Hassan.
I really appreciate your timetoday.
Thank you for sharing.
And uh enjoyed it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And for the audience, with that,we will see you next week.
SPEAKER_02 (34:58):
Thanks, Daniel.
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