December 5, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode of The Profitable Painter Podcast, Daniel sits down with Benson, founder of Legacy Paint Holdings, one of the most ambitious and innovative roll-ups in the modern painting industry.
Benson’s story is extraordinary: starting a painting company in high school during the 2020 lockdown, scaling to multi-location operations while still in college, consulting for over 100 painting companies, and now leading an aggressive nationwide acquisition strategy with 8 companies already in the portfolio.
He shares deep insights into systems, leadership, roll-ups, valuation, growth mindset, and what it really takes to build a $100M organization, the goal he's now pursuing for 2030.
If you’re a painting contractor interested in scaling, selling, or simply building a more powerful business structure, this episode is packed with rare and valuable knowledge.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How Benson went from a Craigslist ad and a minivan to running multi-location painting companies.
- The lessons from overseeing 300+ projects in one summer while still in college.
- What he Learned working with 100+ painting companies as a systems consultant.
- Why “systems”, not skill, determine whether a business scales or stalls.
- How traditional roll-ups work and why painting is primed for massive consolidation.
- Who Legacy Paint Holdings is looking to acquire, and why younger, hungry operators thrive in the model.
- Why mindset, reading, mentorship, and “failing fast” are superpowers in business.
This episode is part masterclass, part blueprint, and part inspiration, essential listening for any contractor thinking bigger.
Subscribe now and learn how to build, scale, and exit a painting business the smart way.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple, to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running, and scaling a
professional painting business.
From the brushes and ladders tothe spreadsheets and balance
sheets, we've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice specifically
for you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
before making any significantfinancial decision.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes, and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable one
episode at a time.
Super excited today to speakwith Benson from Legacy Paint
(01:06):
Holdings.
Welcome to the podcast, Benson.
How's it going?
SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
Good, good.
Thanks for having me on, Daniel.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I know you got a lot of coolstuff going on uh at Legacy
Paint Holdings.
So super excited to dive intothe conversation.
Uh, could you just for thelisteners, um, could you give us
an idea of how did you getstarted in the painting industry
and what's been your journeyalong the way?
SPEAKER_02 (01:30):
Yeah, I uh grew up in a contractor family on
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
My family has been in the tradesince the 70s, ranging
everything from mechanicalcontracting, heavy-duty
construction, electric,landscaping, HVAC, you name it,
my family's been been involvedwith.
So from a very young age, I hada a front row seat to what it
(01:52):
looked like to run a successfulcontracting business,
specifically on the back endside of it.
Uh, grew up veryentrepreneurial, wanting to help
with the family business, rakingleaves, shoveling driveways,
every little side hustle that uhteenager would have, which led
me to my senior year of highschool, uh, which was uh the
(02:13):
COVID-19 pandemic 2020.
I when the whole world shutdown, my senior year of high
school shut down, and I was justwaiting to go off to college on
Providence College, RhodeIsland, where I got my business
management degree.
Uh and I knew I wanted to dosomething during that time
period, and I had always known Iwanted to start my own trades
business, sort of following thefamily footsteps.
(02:35):
And so in April of 2020, Istarted my first uh company, a
small painting company with uhmy brother, who's two years
younger than me.
Uh, we had a minivan we weredriving around at the time and a
couple ladders at my uhgrandmother's house.
And with the limited paintingexperience we had from mission
trips in years past, uh we putan ad out on Craigslist and we
(02:56):
started a painting company.
Uh and very quickly became goodat the back end side of it, uh
the marketing, hiring people,systems, financial planning, all
of that.
And by the time we got to theend of June of that first year,
was completely off the tools,doing estimates, managing
projects, sort of above theday-to-day of the business.
(03:19):
Uh, and realized we were we weredoing something pretty, pretty
unique, pretty special, um, sortof wrapped up that summer, uh,
early August of 2020.
We did over 30 projects duringthat first um first summer and
learned a lot in the process.
So I go off to school uh inRhode Island Providence College,
where joined the entrepreneurialcircles that are there.
(03:42):
Uh, and this is when I came tofind out about the the larger
student painting organizationsthat exist across the country,
which I was unfamiliar with whenI started my painting business
in Pittsburgh.
Uh, and as I was learning aboutthis, uh it dawned on me that,
well, why couldn't I just createor replicate a similar version
of this, but do it actuallythrough students, since I myself
(04:04):
was a student at the time.
Uh, and so a friend of mine thatwent to one of these sort of
recruiting pitches, we got totalking after uh the meeting and
said, Hey, you know, here's whatI did in Pittsburgh.
Why don't you do this inProvidence this summer?
I'll do it in Pittsburgh and youknow, we'll see what can happen.
Uh, and so we went full speedahead, ran everything in
(04:24):
Pittsburgh, ran everything inProvidence.
And that summer of 2021, acrossum two locations, we did over
100 projects uh that summer andlearned even more doing that.
Certainly the the multi-locationaspect, managing multiple crews
at the same time, which hadn'treally done uh the previous
summer, uh, all of the you know,financial planning and
(04:47):
bookkeeping, you know,multi-location, understanding
our numbers and our margins andeverything there.
Uh, and we wanted to do it justthe two of us before we expanded
it a little bigger.
So we go back to school thatfall with all this experience
that we had, and we recruitedthree additional students to
open three additional locationsthat next summer.
Uh, and so that next summer, wewere in uh southern Rhode
(05:08):
Island, a town called Newport,uh, Hartford, Connecticut, uh,
and just north of uh New Orleansin a town called Hammond,
Louisiana.
Uh, and had five locationsrunning that summer.
Across the five locations, wedid about 300 projects, was a
little bit less than 300projects, uh, and was certainly
burning the candle on both ends.
That summer, I was driving backand forth from Pittsburgh to New
(05:30):
England to Louisiana and youknow, put like 60,000 miles on
my truck that summer uh andlearned a ton doing it.
And so we we go back to schooland we're doing a call, you
know, 360-degree audit on thelast three seasons um of doing
this and realized a couplethings.
Thing number one, we wereoperating during a 14-week
(05:51):
season, and there are 38 otherweeks throughout the year that
probably could, should befinding a way to make some
money.
Uh, and B, relying on highschool and college students uh
long term probably wasn't thebest solution in building, you
know, a strong, sustainablebusiness.
Uh, and so that fall, um,started a consulting business
(06:12):
called Precision PaintingAdvisors, where we worked
directly with painting companiesuh across the United States,
essentially saying what workedfor us, we're gonna help you
know these companies with.
So everything from sales andmarketing, HR, financial
planning, um, doing basic thingssuch as making budgets, job
costing, you name it, we wouldhelp painting companies with.
(06:33):
And by the time I got toChristmas of that year, 2022, uh
it became clear to me thatthat's really where I was
passionate about and where Iwanted to lean into.
So I exited the student paintingcompany um at the time and dove
full into the consulting way.
Uh spent about the next twoyears uh doing that.
And I worked with over 100painting companies across the
(06:55):
US.
Uh, companies as small as doing$40,000,$50,000,$60,000 a year,
right?
Sort of one-man show that isjust going job to job, all the
way up to companies doing eight,nine,$10 million a year that had
80 guys out in the field on agiven day.
Uh, and so I got the whole rangeof everything there.
(07:16):
And what it all came downeventually to me was one word,
and that one word is systems.
You either had the systems inplace that you could plug in and
then delegate throughout theorganization, or you didn't, and
you were the bottleneck thatcaused the business to not be
able to scale and to grow.
Uh, and got into to thinkingabout this and seeing sort of
(07:37):
the trends in the economy thathave been happening with roll-up
groups that have been puttogether in the HVAC space,
roofing, plumbing, landscaping,electric.
But nobody was really doing atraditional roll-up in the
painting space.
And so last year, uh, it wasAugust of 2024, we got a group
of initial investors together,uh, and we started legacy paint
holdings and began acquiringpainting companies.
(07:59):
We've been acquiring paintingcompanies across the U.S.
since uh September of 2024.
Uh, we have eight companies inour portfolio right now, um,
from New England to Michigan toPennsylvania to uh Texas and
Oklahoma.
Uh we're pretty spread out atthis point uh and have ambitious
goals to continue to grow and toscale and to put together this
(08:20):
traditional rollout.
So uh excited to be here,excited to be on the podcast,
sort of share a little bit moreabout uh my story, my journey,
how how it can be helpful to theother painting contractors
listening to this.
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
Yeah, that's all that's an amazing story.
And uh so you started runningyour own painting business in
high school.
Yes, senior year.
Okay.
Uh and then you went fromrunning running one painting
business to multi-locationsduring uh student uh when you're
a student at university, andinstead of doing the traditional
(08:55):
like student works painting orcollege works painting, you
basically started your ownversion of that and ran
multi-locations during college,and then and then uh towards the
latter half of your college uhperiod, you actually started
working as an advisor um toother painting businesses,
(09:18):
working with over a hundredpainting businesses from startup
to ten million and helping themwith their systems, and then uh
and then most recently in thispast year, or yeah, this past
year, you've you've started aholding company.
So that is incredible uh amountof learning that you have done.
(09:39):
That's the only thing I canthink of that's what you've been
doing, is just an incredibleamount of learning in a very
quick amount of time.
Um so I'm just like, how how didyou uh what do you attribute?
Are you uh like what are youdoing to learn things so quickly
and then it implement soquickly?
Like uh what's the secret sauce?
(09:59):
So take some notes.
SPEAKER_02 (10:01):
Yeah.
Um, I mean it's it's been we'recoming up on six years since I
started the the painting companythis coming spring.
And I I joke that I've gotten mysort of PhD in the painting
business world over the lastfive, six years.
Uh and really it's two things.
I I think thing number one is II try and I joke, but I I want
to fail fast.
(10:22):
And what I mean by that is Iwant to go quick, learn quick,
make mistakes quick, and thennot make the same mistake twice.
And I mean, I have a laundrylist of things that that I have
done wrong and failed at.
And once I failed once, I wasable to create the system that
you know prevented that failurefrom happening again in the
future.
Uh beyond that, I I'm an avidreader myself.
(10:45):
Uh ever I made a New Year'sresolution of myself uh in 2020
that I was going to read uh atleast one book a week.
And I have very, veryconsistently read a book a week
for the last five years.
Um you look at the 50 weeks in ayear, multiply that by five,
that's 250 books over the courseof five years.
(11:05):
And I I like everything fromyour your fiction to your
nonfiction to the businessspecific books to the more
broader political landscapebooks.
Uh I just like learning andlearning new things and then
trying to implement those thingsin my life and my business.
And I think um, you know,refusing to settle has been a
big part of it as well and andsetting big goals for myself.
(11:28):
Like we we have a goal that bythe time we get to 2030, we're
gonna be a hundred milliondollar company.
And I have, you know, no doubtthat that we're going to be able
to accomplish that that goal andum set big goals, accomplish
them, yeah, move on to the nextone.
SPEAKER_01 (11:43):
So it sounds like deliberate the learning is
deliberate.
Uh it wasn't an accident.
Um and so you you said you'rereading a book a week and you
said it ranges from differentthings.
Are you so you is it justwhatever you interests you, or
is it like something you'retrying to solve at the moment,
or like or is a combination ofthings?
Like because it it you'reobviously very um goal-oriented
(12:10):
and driven.
So it when you said that youread sometimes just through
fiction, uh, that kind of threwme a little bit because um, I
would think if because ofeverything you've accomplished
so quickly, I would guess thatyour books would just just be
like things that I need to readto get to the next level.
But it doesn't sound like that'swhat you're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (12:31):
It's a combination.
And I will say uh I I sort oflike to follow threads where
they take me, right?
So I'll I'll explore one topicthat I'm interested in and I'll
take that topic to its logicalconclusion and sort of read the
books and everything that thatcome up there.
Um, and and so for for me, Ithink fiction, and I don't I
(12:52):
don't read a ton of it to behonest.
There are a couple of goodauthors that I like when they
come out with you know new booksand stuff.
I I like to read.
But I think reading in general,no matter what the topic is, and
they're obviously like veryspecific sales books or very
specific financial books or youknow, very specific books
that'll help you in a specificarea get better at something.
(13:13):
Uh, I like reading a lot ofpeople's personal stories,
memoirs, uh, understand uhpeople.
And I think that's what readingallows you to do.
Um, they they talk about uhthere's a guy I follow whose
name is Dennis Prager, um, andhe talks about the three mirrors
that we all have.
Mirror number one is the mirrorthat you look at every day when
(13:35):
you're brushing your teeth andyou see back at yourself.
Uh mirror number two is if youwant to understand how you think
or somebody else thinks, go readwhat they've written, and you'll
have a good idea of how thatperson thinks.
Uh and mirror number three is ifyou want to get an idea of what
your character is or somebodyelse's character, go find the
(13:55):
five people that you spend themost time around.
Whether it's yourself orsomebody else, you have a good
idea of yourself or somebodyelse's character.
And I think on the writing side,uh the business world is so much
about relationships and buildingrelationships, and especially in
the acquisition space that I'min now, uh that's entirely what
this business is about.
(14:17):
And I like to understanddifferent ways of thinking and
different um perspectives of theworld.
Um, you know, and and whereverthe threads take me, I'll I'll
go and I'll follow them.
Uh, you know, I I think it'sgood to have your your business
specific books, but I think it'sgood as well to have a mix of of
different perspectives that thatare in there as well.
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
Okay, so it sounds like you're reading a lot of
memoirs and autobiographies andbiographies.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (14:42):
Yeah, that's a fair sentiment.
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
Okay.
No, that that that makes a lotof sense.
Um and uh I I haven't done asmuch as probably you did.
I uh for on the podcast for likea year I read a biography or
autobiography a week.
Um and it it definitely one ofthe I don't know who you who you
(15:06):
were kind of I was kind ofchoosing entrepreneurs or
military conquerors likeNapoleon or something like that.
Um and one thing that a commonthread that uh that I saw was
the something that you mentionedwas thinking big, like having
big goals was a common theme.
(15:26):
And you can look at everyoneeveryone from Napoleon to Arnold
Schwarzenegger to Jeff Bezos,like all those people who kind
of accomplished more than youwould think one man could
accomplish, they always had likesome really big goal, and and
(15:48):
everyone kind of thought theywere crazy uh for for going
after it.
Is that is that one of thethings that you learned is to
set goals higher bigger thanwhat you th, you know, would
initially kind of uh naturallyset.
Is that is that something yougleaned from your reading, or is
that just uh an artifact of yourpersonality?
SPEAKER_02 (16:12):
Yeah, I'd say a couple things.
One one of the characters thatI've followed um closest, I
would say, since I started mybusiness personal development
journey, uh has been Dr.
Jordan Peterson.
Uh you know, I read 12 Rules forLife right when it came out,
followed his lecture series, andI've followed his his journey
(16:33):
ever since.
Uh and for for him, one of thebig things that he says, which I
completely subscribe to, is youneed to set a goal, set an
ambitious goal, you know, workbackwards in terms of like what
needs to get done every singleday to accomplish that goal, and
work every day like your lifedepends on it.
(16:53):
And you're going to sooner orlater accomplish whatever that
goal you you initially set outwas.
And so certainly the the idea ofgoal setting and then being
intentional, right?
When they ask the uh quarterbackat the end of the Super Bowl uh
how he he won the Super Bowl andgot there, he doesn't say I
lucked myself in or Iaccidentally found myself here.
(17:16):
Very similar in business and inlife.
You're not magically going toend up at the mountaintop.
You have to deliberately planand get there.
And so that has been a big partof my journey as well.
Uh and on a personal note, uh,you know, growing up, my my mom
passed when I was quite young.
I was nine years old, uh, sortof late elementary school, and
(17:37):
had uh do have three youngersiblings at the time.
They were seven, five, andthree.
Uh, and we moved in with mygrandmother.
Um, and I had to take on a bigrole in terms of you know
supporting my grandmother andhelping to get us to the point
where we are today.
Uh and I learned from a youngage the the power of just not
(17:58):
giving up and to continue topush forward, push forward, push
forward.
Uh, you're gonna fail, you'regonna fall down, but you get
back up, you keep pushingforward.
Uh and I think a combination oflike the the people that I
followed and then you know thethe personal experiences that
have happened to me, like as aslong as you just don't give up
and you keep learning, uh you'regoing to become a a better
(18:22):
person, have a better business,and be a whole lot closer to
whatever that goal you have is.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:29):
Yeah, you you mentioned it a couple of times
now, um not being afraid tofail.
Uh I think that's that's a acommon fear of trying something
that might seem a little risky,you know, like whether it's
spending money on that marketingfirm to help you grow your
(18:51):
business or you know, hiringmore of a team or hiring you
know a certain position.
Uh there's that that a fear offailure that's kind of
preventing, which to be honest,they're probably right to fear.
You probably are gonna fail whenyou try that, try something for
the first time for sure.
Um could you just tell me moreabout how you think about
(19:16):
failure?
And uh I guess did you have anissue with that initially?
What what allowed you to kind ofnot be afraid to continue to
just just push forward and failmultiple times and and not be
worried about it and just learnand then move forward?
SPEAKER_02 (19:33):
Yeah, I I I would say certainly growing up in an
entrepreneurial household help.
Right.
Right.
I I saw the the power offailure, you might be able to
say, and the power of learningfrom from that failure.
And so I I I guess I'm unique inthat sense that that I
understood growing up that it'sokay to fail and it's not
(19:54):
necessarily something to beafraid of, but something to
expect because problems.
Do happen, they will alwayshappen, and you're just gonna
have to learn how to overcomethem and move forward.
Uh, and so you know, I Idefinitely think that's a big
part of it, but also just rightand until you experience it
yourself, and until you'veknocked on 10 doors and been
(20:15):
told no 10 times, and then hadto knock on the 11th expecting a
yes, like you're just not gonnaget it in until you get it.
And I think for, like you said,the contractors that might be
afraid to you know spend acouple thousand dollars on on
marketing or cleaning up theirbooks or whatever it might be to
invest back into themselves andback into their businesses.
(20:36):
Um, you know, you're you you areeventually going to get it
right, but along the way, you'regonna fail.
You're gonna waste, you know,conceivably waste money.
Uh and and there's gonna be um,you know, some roadblocks uh on
on its way.
And I think uh it's it's a loteasier in retrospect to take a
look at you know your life andthe years in your business and
(20:59):
you know, paint the rosy picturethat it might have been.
But if you ask any successfulperson, they've had their share
of stumbling blocks and failuresalong the way.
It's just that they didn't giveup when they they happen, right?
Uh since we've been acquiringcompanies, we've had two that
that we've acquired that haven'tbeen good fits for the group,
and we've had to, you know, cutour losses and move on from
(21:21):
that.
And that's something that hasenabled us just within the past
year plus of doing this, right?
We now know very specificallywhat we're looking for, the type
of business, the type of generalmanager that's gonna be running
that business.
We know exactly what we neednow, but we probably wouldn't
have had that if we didn't havea couple bad apples in the the
first you know round of this.
(21:42):
And so uh it's gonna happen.
You have to expect failure andthen learn fast and don't make
the same mistake twice.
SPEAKER_01 (21:51):
Yeah.
So just look, you know, youyou've done so much so quickly,
and we we talked about you'reyou're deliberately learning,
you're not afraid to get thereps in and fail to speed up the
learning process.
Um is there anything else thatbefore we move on from this that
(22:14):
you think is a uh a key driverto being able to accomplish so
much so quickly?
SPEAKER_03 (22:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:26):
Uh I mean, like you said, we covered fail fast,
learn fast, we covered theintentionality piece, we covered
set your your big goals and andwork towards those big goals.
I I would say the the last bigthing is surrounding yourself
with the right people.
And we talk about that thirdmirror, for example, of being
character is who you spend themost amount of time with.
(22:48):
And you typically become the themedian of that group of close
people that you're around.
Uh and something I veryintentionally did when I started
um from the painting company tothe consulting business to now
the roll-up that we're puttingtogether.
Uh being mentored by somebodythat is further along in the
business world than I am today.
(23:10):
And I have great mentors in therollup space.
I have one that exited twicefrom an HVAC roll-up studies put
together.
I have one that is pretty closeto an exit in electric, and one
that is pretty close in thelandscaping um group right now.
Really high quality, good guysthat I talk to on a very, very
regular basis and gatherinsights and data where they
(23:32):
failed, so I don't make thatsame mistake.
Uh and I think seeking thosepeople out and whether those
people I've I've paid mentors inthe past, and I think it's it's
good to have paid them.
And I've also just connectedwith people and have built
relationships with mentors wherethey wanted to help me and I
needed help.
Uh, and so I think having alittle bit of both is helpful
(23:54):
and investing in somebody thatis further along in the path
that you are, so that they canhelp steer you around those
roadblocks is invaluable becausethen you get moved, you know, a
couple months, maybe even yearsahead of where you are.
And you're still gonna failyourself, but at least you have
somebody to lean on that thathas been there before and that's
(24:16):
gonna help you in your journey.
SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
Yeah, and and going back to the biography, like
especially autobiographies,those almost act like a kind of
like a mentor almost, like theway that some of those I'm just
thinking like Henry Ford'sautobiography or um Sam
Walton's, they're they'rewriting it and they're trying to
basically kind of tell theirkids or like the ones that come
(24:42):
after them, like, hey, this iswhat I did, this is what I
tried, this is what worked, thisis what didn't work.
So it's almost functions as a uhas a mentor uh for business,
especially like thoseautobiographies of those like
business owners that killed it.
Um is that do you kind of viewit the same way or I do, right?
SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
I I I think just reading it in general helps with
that, right?
You you understand more, you'relearning more.
And I I think it's a shame in intoday's world where everything
has been shifted towards the15-second TikTok style videos,
like we're not sitting down andreading and and learning
anymore.
(25:22):
Um and I think we've lost a lotin that sense.
Um right, like I can't rememberthe last TikTok I watched, but I
can sure remember the last bookI read.
Uh and like the lasting impactthat a good book can have on you
versus you know the meaninglessshort form video content that
that exists today.
SPEAKER_01 (25:43):
Yeah, that's a great point.
So let's just shift gears alittle bit.
I appreciate we kind of wentreally big on on there.
Uh so I appreciate you goingthere with me.
Um so legacy paint holding, uhyou you mentioned that it's more
of a traditional roll-up.
Could you talk more about that?
SPEAKER_02 (26:05):
Yeah.
Uh I mean, so roll-ups arenothing new.
They've existed for as long asmoney has been invested into
small businesses, these roll-upgroups have happened.
It's certainly not limited tothe home services specialty
contracting space.
Say within the last five years,it's really been the golden age
of private equities involvementin the home services space.
(26:26):
Uh Wall Street Journal put outan article last October
essentially saying if if youwant to become a millionaire in
today's economy, don't become adoctor, go become an
electrician, go become aplumber, go become a skilled
tradesman and run a skilledtrades business.
That is where the future of theeconomy is going.
Uh, and so the roll-up,essentially what we're doing is
(26:50):
pulling painting companiestogether.
And we'll probably get to around20 to 30 companies in the group
before we eventually exit um,pulling their cash flow, pulling
the revenues and the profits andsystematizing and putting a
ribbon on top of the business.
And that's going to make thebusiness inherently more
valuable.
So a typical painting company ontheir own in one location might
(27:14):
sell for anywhere from two tofour X at EBITDA.
Whereas these roll-ups areselling all the time for
anywhere from eight to as highas 16 times their earnings.
Uh and you know, we've talked toprivate equity partners and
groups about where you know wesort of need to be, and we're
right within that range ofeventually being in that eight
to 12x earnings.
And so it's it's the power ofthe economies of scale, where
(27:37):
you get bigger numbers, morelocations, uh, larger dollars,
you're just going to get a muchhigher multiple on your
earnings.
And so what we're doing is thatevery partner that we get
involved with, they arereinvesting back into the
holding company, into the group.
They are shareholders in thecompany.
And so their ability to exit andto exit for a far greater
(28:00):
multiple is is so much more thanthey would be able to ever you
know accomplish on their own.
And it's it's just what happens,right, when a large market like
the painting industry is startsto consolidate in these roll-up
groups.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
Gotcha.
So uh just to recap, um, so atypical, let's just take an
example.
Let's say you have a fivemillion dollar painting business
that's netting a million dollarsand net profit, aka EBITDA.
So a million dollars in EBITDA,aka net profit, um, roughly
speaking.
So you could maybe sell thatfive million dollar painting
(28:38):
business for like two million tofour million, you know, that's
that two to four multiple,because you basically take that
two to four multiple andmultiply it by a million, and
that's you know, roughlyspeaking, you can maybe sell it
for two to four million.
But you're saying you're takingyou know twenty, twenty, um,
let's just say just to do themath easy, twenty of those five
(29:00):
million companies, um, so thatequals a hundred million in
revenue, and instead of justdoing a two to so a hundred
million revenue on the same thesame net margin, which was
twenty percent, that would betwenty million in in net margin,
net profit EBITDA, same thing.
Uh so 20 million instead of justmultiplying by two or four to
(29:22):
get 40, yeah, multiply it by 10.
So that would be 200 million,uh, or even even more.
So um so basically you're you'recombining these companies
together so that you can um havea larger company overall under
the same corporate you knowstructure, and then you can sell
(29:46):
it for way more money becauseyou'll bring in bigger players
that are willing willing tospend more on on a company that
has more EBITDA, more revenue.
Um and then you're and the folksthat are partnering up with you,
it sounds like, and you can uhthey're able to take advantage
of that that roll-up successwhen you when you exit uh years
(30:08):
from now.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (30:10):
Yeah, and and so that that's the ultimate, right?
There's sort of two primaryreasons why a company joins our
group.
Yeah.
Reason number one is wecertainly grow and scale the
business in the short term.
We're providing the back-endsupport and the systems that are
required for scale, butobviously long term, and we have
a three to five year play herewhere you can go from
(30:32):
essentially investing yourbusiness into the group um to
turning you know into amillionaire within just a couple
of years, right?
It's it's very powerful what theeconomics of a rollup can do.
And then even beyond that, tothe beauty of the rollup space
is the the multiple bytes out ofthe same apple, right?
(30:52):
And so when we do get to thepoint where we exit, um, right,
let's say an individual paintingcompany at time of exit, their
payout is five million dollars,just to use the round number.
You know, they might um be giventwo million or three million
dollars in cash and thenreinvest that additional two or
three million back into the nextround that is going to happen.
(31:16):
They will have the opportunityto get a nice return now on that
two or three million dollarsthat they've reinvested.
The next round will just beacquiring more painting
companies, doing the same exactthing, and then flipping that to
an even bigger private equity.
Uh, and and so as that happens,uh, you turn your asset, your
painting business into you knowone dollars today, turns into
(31:38):
five dollars tomorrow, turns totwenty dollars the the next day.
Uh and and that just can'thappen outside of any other
vehicle of the roll-up.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Awesome.
That yeah, that that makes a lotof sense.
And uh uh it sounds like a greatopportunity for some some folks.
So can you talk more about wherewho would this be a good fit
for?
Um, like because I'm sure it'snot a good fit for everybody.
Uh who would really trulybenefit from working with
(32:12):
someone like Legacy PaintHoldings?
SPEAKER_02 (32:15):
Yeah, and we're very particular about the partners
that that we bring on for thevery reason of we need the right
company, the right structure,and the right person at the helm
of these companies.
And so really we're we'relooking for established
businesses, right?
We don't want the the one-manshow or the you know company
(32:36):
that has the seasonal helpers.
We need an established businessuh that at least has a crew or
two out in the field, sort ofbare minimum.
Uh, and the owner of the companyis not the guy that has the
paintbrush in his hand from 7a.m.
to 6 p.m.
every day.
Uh ideally, we're looking forcompanies that are doing$750,000
(32:58):
or more in revenue, uh, thatideally have net profit margins
of at least 15%, or more soshooting for 20 to 25%.
Um and beyond that, we'relooking for ambitious, hungry
individuals.
Uh and when I say what I meanthat is the companies that we
brought in, and I'm certainlynot going to name them, but the
(33:20):
companies that we brought inthat that didn't work out uh was
because they they sort of sawour group and our roll-up as
more of a lack of better term, aretirement plan than something
that they wanted to invest inand be involved with and wanted
to grow.
Uh and there just wasn't thatthat buy-in there.
And and the two companies, olderindividuals that own these
(33:41):
businesses, and seemed like agood fit at the time, but it
just didn't work out the way wewanted it to.
And so we're really looking foryounger contractors as well.
I think that's important for usin terms of the culture that
we're building.
Uh, I myself am 24 years old.
Uh, company we just acquired inuh East Texas, the the guy
running that business is just 23years old.
(34:03):
Uh the companies in our group, Imean, we're 40 and younger
outside of one instance rightnow.
Right.
So we're young, ambitious,hungry guys.
We do have a woman-ownedcompany, uh that that that want
to grow are eager and excited.
Uh, and as long as those thingsare there, then then we're going
to have a successfulpartnership.
(34:24):
Um, you know, and and honestly,like to me, at this point, like
the the person matters almostmore so than the fundamentals of
the business, because we knowhow to put the right structures
in place, the right marketingteam in place, the right
production strategy in place,the right pricing systems.
All of that is our bread andbutter, and we know how to do it
(34:44):
as well as anybody else does.
And we can implement thosethings.
But if we don't have the rightdriver in that vehicle pushing
the business forward, then wemight not even get involved in
in the business in the firstplace.
Um, and so that's sort of likethe the ideal person that we're
looking for.
Established business, young,hungry, eager to grow, and and
(35:05):
wants to create a legacy rightfor for themselves, their
families, their businesses,their teams.
Uh, all of that is superimportant to us.
SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
Gotcha.
And you're the the benefit tothem is they get that support to
you've done this multiple times,obviously, on building the
structure, helping with thesystems, and helping you really
grow that top line and andbottom line uh to get to the
next level so that you you cantake part in the the additional
(35:34):
profits, and then obviously thelong-term play is is that
eventual um sale potentially uhthat they could get that that
high be take part in the thehigher EBITDA um piece there.
Absolutely.
That's a pretty good summation.
Okay, awesome.
No, that's super interesting,and uh I feel like we could
(35:56):
probably go on for the nextcouple hours.
Um but I I know we got a littlebit of a time limit here, so I
want to provide you theopportunity to, you know, if you
have any asks of the audience orany final thoughts, um, I'll
open it up to you.
SPEAKER_02 (36:14):
Yeah.
I I think for the contractorlistening to the podcast or
podcasts in general that are inthis specific niche, right?
You you've probably already madethe decision that I want to
grow, I want to be better, Iwant my own business to be in a
better space and a better spotthan it is in right now.
And certainly a financiallyfocused podcast such as such as
(36:36):
this one.
And so talking about like theeconomics of the painting
business and the roll-ups, andI'm sure that's appealing and
intriguing to some of you.
And we are actively looking fornew partners uh across the
country, right?
We're we're not done in NewEngland, we're not done in
Pennsylvania, we're not done inthe areas that that we are
currently in.
And so if this sounds likesomething that you know might be
(36:59):
worth having a conversation or asit-down about, uh, I would
invite you to go to our website.
It's legacypaintholdings.com.
And there's a little form at thebottom of the website where you
can fill it out and set up aconversation with uh myself or
one of my team members.
Uh, sit down with you, gothrough your numbers, go through
your business, what your goalsare, what your dreams are.
(37:19):
And ultimately, if there's afit, that that is our job to
find that fit together.
And and sort of the the lastthing there is um so much of a
painting contractor's potentialis is all locked in their
beliefs and and and what theybelieve they can or can't
accomplish.
Uh and it sounds really simpleand really basic, but it
(37:42):
definitely is true.
If if you do believe that youcan grow your company to five,
six, seven, ten million dollars,and you set the goals and very,
very specific, like micro-targetmicro goals, every single day
that will help you to get to$10million, you are going to get
there.
You're going to get a whole lotcloser to there than you are
today.
(38:03):
So certainly don't don't limityourself, don't limit your
beliefs or your mindset or whatyou think is is possible because
the second you stop growing isthe second you start dying.
And we we certainly don't wantthat as business owners.
So I I appreciate the time,Daniel.
Uh, it was was definitely agreat conversation that we had
here today.
(38:23):
And um I I hope your youraudience found some some at
least uh a couple key takeawaysthat they can uh implement in
their business from this.
SPEAKER_01 (38:32):
Absolutely.
I I really appreciate your time.
I think it was a superinteresting conversation.
You've you've accomplished somuch so quickly, and uh I uh I
was taking notes, so I'm sureother people were too.
Um I really appreciate yourtime, Benson.
And for the audience and thelisteners, with that, we will
see you next week.
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple, to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running, and scaling a
professional painting business.
From the brushes and ladders tothe spreadsheets and balance
sheets, we've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice specifically
for you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
before making any significantfinancial decision.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes, and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable one
episode at a time.
Super excited today to speakwith Benson from Legacy Paint
(01:06):
Holdings.
Welcome to the podcast, Benson.
How's it going?
SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
Good, good.
Thanks for having me on, Daniel.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I know you got a lot of coolstuff going on uh at Legacy
Paint Holdings.
So super excited to dive intothe conversation.
Uh, could you just for thelisteners, um, could you give us
an idea of how did you getstarted in the painting industry
and what's been your journeyalong the way?
SPEAKER_02 (01:30):
Yeah, I uh grew up in a contractor family on
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
My family has been in the tradesince the 70s, ranging
everything from mechanicalcontracting, heavy-duty
construction, electric,landscaping, HVAC, you name it,
my family's been been involvedwith.
So from a very young age, I hada a front row seat to what it
(01:52):
looked like to run a successfulcontracting business,
specifically on the back endside of it.
Uh, grew up veryentrepreneurial, wanting to help
with the family business, rakingleaves, shoveling driveways,
every little side hustle that uhteenager would have, which led
me to my senior year of highschool, uh, which was uh the
(02:13):
COVID-19 pandemic 2020.
I when the whole world shutdown, my senior year of high
school shut down, and I was justwaiting to go off to college on
Providence College, RhodeIsland, where I got my business
management degree.
Uh and I knew I wanted to dosomething during that time
period, and I had always known Iwanted to start my own trades
business, sort of following thefamily footsteps.
(02:35):
And so in April of 2020, Istarted my first uh company, a
small painting company with uhmy brother, who's two years
younger than me.
Uh, we had a minivan we weredriving around at the time and a
couple ladders at my uhgrandmother's house.
And with the limited paintingexperience we had from mission
trips in years past, uh we putan ad out on Craigslist and we
(02:56):
started a painting company.
Uh and very quickly became goodat the back end side of it, uh
the marketing, hiring people,systems, financial planning, all
of that.
And by the time we got to theend of June of that first year,
was completely off the tools,doing estimates, managing
projects, sort of above theday-to-day of the business.
(03:19):
Uh, and realized we were we weredoing something pretty, pretty
unique, pretty special, um, sortof wrapped up that summer, uh,
early August of 2020.
We did over 30 projects duringthat first um first summer and
learned a lot in the process.
So I go off to school uh inRhode Island Providence College,
where joined the entrepreneurialcircles that are there.
(03:42):
Uh, and this is when I came tofind out about the the larger
student painting organizationsthat exist across the country,
which I was unfamiliar with whenI started my painting business
in Pittsburgh.
Uh, and as I was learning aboutthis, uh it dawned on me that,
well, why couldn't I just createor replicate a similar version
of this, but do it actuallythrough students, since I myself
(04:04):
was a student at the time.
Uh, and so a friend of mine thatwent to one of these sort of
recruiting pitches, we got totalking after uh the meeting and
said, Hey, you know, here's whatI did in Pittsburgh.
Why don't you do this inProvidence this summer?
I'll do it in Pittsburgh and youknow, we'll see what can happen.
Uh, and so we went full speedahead, ran everything in
(04:24):
Pittsburgh, ran everything inProvidence.
And that summer of 2021, acrossum two locations, we did over
100 projects uh that summer andlearned even more doing that.
Certainly the the multi-locationaspect, managing multiple crews
at the same time, which hadn'treally done uh the previous
summer, uh, all of the you know,financial planning and
(04:47):
bookkeeping, you know,multi-location, understanding
our numbers and our margins andeverything there.
Uh, and we wanted to do it justthe two of us before we expanded
it a little bigger.
So we go back to school thatfall with all this experience
that we had, and we recruitedthree additional students to
open three additional locationsthat next summer.
Uh, and so that next summer, wewere in uh southern Rhode
(05:08):
Island, a town called Newport,uh, Hartford, Connecticut, uh,
and just north of uh New Orleansin a town called Hammond,
Louisiana.
Uh, and had five locationsrunning that summer.
Across the five locations, wedid about 300 projects, was a
little bit less than 300projects, uh, and was certainly
burning the candle on both ends.
That summer, I was driving backand forth from Pittsburgh to New
(05:30):
England to Louisiana and youknow, put like 60,000 miles on
my truck that summer uh andlearned a ton doing it.
And so we we go back to schooland we're doing a call, you
know, 360-degree audit on thelast three seasons um of doing
this and realized a couplethings.
Thing number one, we wereoperating during a 14-week
(05:51):
season, and there are 38 otherweeks throughout the year that
probably could, should befinding a way to make some
money.
Uh, and B, relying on highschool and college students uh
long term probably wasn't thebest solution in building, you
know, a strong, sustainablebusiness.
Uh, and so that fall, um,started a consulting business
(06:12):
called Precision PaintingAdvisors, where we worked
directly with painting companiesuh across the United States,
essentially saying what workedfor us, we're gonna help you
know these companies with.
So everything from sales andmarketing, HR, financial
planning, um, doing basic thingssuch as making budgets, job
costing, you name it, we wouldhelp painting companies with.
(06:33):
And by the time I got toChristmas of that year, 2022, uh
it became clear to me thatthat's really where I was
passionate about and where Iwanted to lean into.
So I exited the student paintingcompany um at the time and dove
full into the consulting way.
Uh spent about the next twoyears uh doing that.
And I worked with over 100painting companies across the
(06:55):
US.
Uh, companies as small as doing$40,000,$50,000,$60,000 a year,
right?
Sort of one-man show that isjust going job to job, all the
way up to companies doing eight,nine,$10 million a year that had
80 guys out in the field on agiven day.
Uh, and so I got the whole rangeof everything there.
(07:16):
And what it all came downeventually to me was one word,
and that one word is systems.
You either had the systems inplace that you could plug in and
then delegate throughout theorganization, or you didn't, and
you were the bottleneck thatcaused the business to not be
able to scale and to grow.
Uh, and got into to thinkingabout this and seeing sort of
(07:37):
the trends in the economy thathave been happening with roll-up
groups that have been puttogether in the HVAC space,
roofing, plumbing, landscaping,electric.
But nobody was really doing atraditional roll-up in the
painting space.
And so last year, uh, it wasAugust of 2024, we got a group
of initial investors together,uh, and we started legacy paint
holdings and began acquiringpainting companies.
(07:59):
We've been acquiring paintingcompanies across the U.S.
since uh September of 2024.
Uh, we have eight companies inour portfolio right now, um,
from New England to Michigan toPennsylvania to uh Texas and
Oklahoma.
Uh we're pretty spread out atthis point uh and have ambitious
goals to continue to grow and toscale and to put together this
(08:20):
traditional rollout.
So uh excited to be here,excited to be on the podcast,
sort of share a little bit moreabout uh my story, my journey,
how how it can be helpful to theother painting contractors
listening to this.
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
Yeah, that's all that's an amazing story.
And uh so you started runningyour own painting business in
high school.
Yes, senior year.
Okay.
Uh and then you went fromrunning running one painting
business to multi-locationsduring uh student uh when you're
a student at university, andinstead of doing the traditional
(08:55):
like student works painting orcollege works painting, you
basically started your ownversion of that and ran
multi-locations during college,and then and then uh towards the
latter half of your college uhperiod, you actually started
working as an advisor um toother painting businesses,
(09:18):
working with over a hundredpainting businesses from startup
to ten million and helping themwith their systems, and then uh
and then most recently in thispast year, or yeah, this past
year, you've you've started aholding company.
So that is incredible uh amountof learning that you have done.
(09:39):
That's the only thing I canthink of that's what you've been
doing, is just an incredibleamount of learning in a very
quick amount of time.
Um so I'm just like, how how didyou uh what do you attribute?
Are you uh like what are youdoing to learn things so quickly
and then it implement soquickly?
Like uh what's the secret sauce?
(09:59):
So take some notes.
SPEAKER_02 (10:01):
Yeah.
Um, I mean it's it's been we'recoming up on six years since I
started the the painting companythis coming spring.
And I I joke that I've gotten mysort of PhD in the painting
business world over the lastfive, six years.
Uh and really it's two things.
I I think thing number one is II try and I joke, but I I want
to fail fast.
(10:22):
And what I mean by that is Iwant to go quick, learn quick,
make mistakes quick, and thennot make the same mistake twice.
And I mean, I have a laundrylist of things that that I have
done wrong and failed at.
And once I failed once, I wasable to create the system that
you know prevented that failurefrom happening again in the
future.
Uh beyond that, I I'm an avidreader myself.
(10:45):
Uh ever I made a New Year'sresolution of myself uh in 2020
that I was going to read uh atleast one book a week.
And I have very, veryconsistently read a book a week
for the last five years.
Um you look at the 50 weeks in ayear, multiply that by five,
that's 250 books over the courseof five years.
(11:05):
And I I like everything fromyour your fiction to your
nonfiction to the businessspecific books to the more
broader political landscapebooks.
Uh I just like learning andlearning new things and then
trying to implement those thingsin my life and my business.
And I think um, you know,refusing to settle has been a
big part of it as well and andsetting big goals for myself.
(11:28):
Like we we have a goal that bythe time we get to 2030, we're
gonna be a hundred milliondollar company.
And I have, you know, no doubtthat that we're going to be able
to accomplish that that goal andum set big goals, accomplish
them, yeah, move on to the nextone.
SPEAKER_01 (11:43):
So it sounds like deliberate the learning is
deliberate.
Uh it wasn't an accident.
Um and so you you said you'rereading a book a week and you
said it ranges from differentthings.
Are you so you is it justwhatever you interests you, or
is it like something you'retrying to solve at the moment,
or like or is a combination ofthings?
Like because it it you'reobviously very um goal-oriented
(12:10):
and driven.
So it when you said that youread sometimes just through
fiction, uh, that kind of threwme a little bit because um, I
would think if because ofeverything you've accomplished
so quickly, I would guess thatyour books would just just be
like things that I need to readto get to the next level.
But it doesn't sound like that'swhat you're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (12:31):
It's a combination.
And I will say uh I I sort oflike to follow threads where
they take me, right?
So I'll I'll explore one topicthat I'm interested in and I'll
take that topic to its logicalconclusion and sort of read the
books and everything that thatcome up there.
Um, and and so for for me, Ithink fiction, and I don't I
(12:52):
don't read a ton of it to behonest.
There are a couple of goodauthors that I like when they
come out with you know new booksand stuff.
I I like to read.
But I think reading in general,no matter what the topic is, and
they're obviously like veryspecific sales books or very
specific financial books or youknow, very specific books
that'll help you in a specificarea get better at something.
(13:13):
Uh, I like reading a lot ofpeople's personal stories,
memoirs, uh, understand uhpeople.
And I think that's what readingallows you to do.
Um, they they talk about uhthere's a guy I follow whose
name is Dennis Prager, um, andhe talks about the three mirrors
that we all have.
Mirror number one is the mirrorthat you look at every day when
(13:35):
you're brushing your teeth andyou see back at yourself.
Uh mirror number two is if youwant to understand how you think
or somebody else thinks, go readwhat they've written, and you'll
have a good idea of how thatperson thinks.
Uh and mirror number three is ifyou want to get an idea of what
your character is or somebodyelse's character, go find the
(13:55):
five people that you spend themost time around.
Whether it's yourself orsomebody else, you have a good
idea of yourself or somebodyelse's character.
And I think on the writing side,uh the business world is so much
about relationships and buildingrelationships, and especially in
the acquisition space that I'min now, uh that's entirely what
this business is about.
(14:17):
And I like to understanddifferent ways of thinking and
different um perspectives of theworld.
Um, you know, and and whereverthe threads take me, I'll I'll
go and I'll follow them.
Uh, you know, I I think it'sgood to have your your business
specific books, but I think it'sgood as well to have a mix of of
different perspectives that thatare in there as well.
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
Okay, so it sounds like you're reading a lot of
memoirs and autobiographies andbiographies.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (14:42):
Yeah, that's a fair sentiment.
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
Okay.
No, that that that makes a lotof sense.
Um and uh I I haven't done asmuch as probably you did.
I uh for on the podcast for likea year I read a biography or
autobiography a week.
Um and it it definitely one ofthe I don't know who you who you
(15:06):
were kind of I was kind ofchoosing entrepreneurs or
military conquerors likeNapoleon or something like that.
Um and one thing that a commonthread that uh that I saw was
the something that you mentionedwas thinking big, like having
big goals was a common theme.
(15:26):
And you can look at everyoneeveryone from Napoleon to Arnold
Schwarzenegger to Jeff Bezos,like all those people who kind
of accomplished more than youwould think one man could
accomplish, they always had likesome really big goal, and and
(15:48):
everyone kind of thought theywere crazy uh for for going
after it.
Is that is that one of thethings that you learned is to
set goals higher bigger thanwhat you th, you know, would
initially kind of uh naturallyset.
Is that is that something yougleaned from your reading, or is
that just uh an artifact of yourpersonality?
SPEAKER_02 (16:12):
Yeah, I'd say a couple things.
One one of the characters thatI've followed um closest, I
would say, since I started mybusiness personal development
journey, uh has been Dr.
Jordan Peterson.
Uh you know, I read 12 Rules forLife right when it came out,
followed his lecture series, andI've followed his his journey
(16:33):
ever since.
Uh and for for him, one of thebig things that he says, which I
completely subscribe to, is youneed to set a goal, set an
ambitious goal, you know, workbackwards in terms of like what
needs to get done every singleday to accomplish that goal, and
work every day like your lifedepends on it.
(16:53):
And you're going to sooner orlater accomplish whatever that
goal you you initially set outwas.
And so certainly the the idea ofgoal setting and then being
intentional, right?
When they ask the uh quarterbackat the end of the Super Bowl uh
how he he won the Super Bowl andgot there, he doesn't say I
lucked myself in or Iaccidentally found myself here.
(17:16):
Very similar in business and inlife.
You're not magically going toend up at the mountaintop.
You have to deliberately planand get there.
And so that has been a big partof my journey as well.
Uh and on a personal note, uh,you know, growing up, my my mom
passed when I was quite young.
I was nine years old, uh, sortof late elementary school, and
(17:37):
had uh do have three youngersiblings at the time.
They were seven, five, andthree.
Uh, and we moved in with mygrandmother.
Um, and I had to take on a bigrole in terms of you know
supporting my grandmother andhelping to get us to the point
where we are today.
Uh and I learned from a youngage the the power of just not
(17:58):
giving up and to continue topush forward, push forward, push
forward.
Uh, you're gonna fail, you'regonna fall down, but you get
back up, you keep pushingforward.
Uh and I think a combination oflike the the people that I
followed and then you know thethe personal experiences that
have happened to me, like as aslong as you just don't give up
and you keep learning, uh you'regoing to become a a better
(18:22):
person, have a better business,and be a whole lot closer to
whatever that goal you have is.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:29):
Yeah, you you mentioned it a couple of times
now, um not being afraid tofail.
Uh I think that's that's a acommon fear of trying something
that might seem a little risky,you know, like whether it's
spending money on that marketingfirm to help you grow your
(18:51):
business or you know, hiringmore of a team or hiring you
know a certain position.
Uh there's that that a fear offailure that's kind of
preventing, which to be honest,they're probably right to fear.
You probably are gonna fail whenyou try that, try something for
the first time for sure.
Um could you just tell me moreabout how you think about
(19:16):
failure?
And uh I guess did you have anissue with that initially?
What what allowed you to kind ofnot be afraid to continue to
just just push forward and failmultiple times and and not be
worried about it and just learnand then move forward?
SPEAKER_02 (19:33):
Yeah, I I I would say certainly growing up in an
entrepreneurial household help.
Right.
Right.
I I saw the the power offailure, you might be able to
say, and the power of learningfrom from that failure.
And so I I I guess I'm unique inthat sense that that I
understood growing up that it'sokay to fail and it's not
(19:54):
necessarily something to beafraid of, but something to
expect because problems.
Do happen, they will alwayshappen, and you're just gonna
have to learn how to overcomethem and move forward.
Uh, and so you know, I Idefinitely think that's a big
part of it, but also just rightand until you experience it
yourself, and until you'veknocked on 10 doors and been
(20:15):
told no 10 times, and then hadto knock on the 11th expecting a
yes, like you're just not gonnaget it in until you get it.
And I think for, like you said,the contractors that might be
afraid to you know spend acouple thousand dollars on on
marketing or cleaning up theirbooks or whatever it might be to
invest back into themselves andback into their businesses.
(20:36):
Um, you know, you're you you areeventually going to get it
right, but along the way, you'regonna fail.
You're gonna waste, you know,conceivably waste money.
Uh and and there's gonna be um,you know, some roadblocks uh on
on its way.
And I think uh it's it's a loteasier in retrospect to take a
look at you know your life andthe years in your business and
(20:59):
you know, paint the rosy picturethat it might have been.
But if you ask any successfulperson, they've had their share
of stumbling blocks and failuresalong the way.
It's just that they didn't giveup when they they happen, right?
Uh since we've been acquiringcompanies, we've had two that
that we've acquired that haven'tbeen good fits for the group,
and we've had to, you know, cutour losses and move on from
(21:21):
that.
And that's something that hasenabled us just within the past
year plus of doing this, right?
We now know very specificallywhat we're looking for, the type
of business, the type of generalmanager that's gonna be running
that business.
We know exactly what we neednow, but we probably wouldn't
have had that if we didn't havea couple bad apples in the the
first you know round of this.
(21:42):
And so uh it's gonna happen.
You have to expect failure andthen learn fast and don't make
the same mistake twice.
SPEAKER_01 (21:51):
Yeah.
So just look, you know, youyou've done so much so quickly,
and we we talked about you'reyou're deliberately learning,
you're not afraid to get thereps in and fail to speed up the
learning process.
Um is there anything else thatbefore we move on from this that
(22:14):
you think is a uh a key driverto being able to accomplish so
much so quickly?
SPEAKER_03 (22:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:26):
Uh I mean, like you said, we covered fail fast,
learn fast, we covered theintentionality piece, we covered
set your your big goals and andwork towards those big goals.
I I would say the the last bigthing is surrounding yourself
with the right people.
And we talk about that thirdmirror, for example, of being
character is who you spend themost amount of time with.
(22:48):
And you typically become the themedian of that group of close
people that you're around.
Uh and something I veryintentionally did when I started
um from the painting company tothe consulting business to now
the roll-up that we're puttingtogether.
Uh being mentored by somebodythat is further along in the
business world than I am today.
(23:10):
And I have great mentors in therollup space.
I have one that exited twicefrom an HVAC roll-up studies put
together.
I have one that is pretty closeto an exit in electric, and one
that is pretty close in thelandscaping um group right now.
Really high quality, good guysthat I talk to on a very, very
regular basis and gatherinsights and data where they
(23:32):
failed, so I don't make thatsame mistake.
Uh and I think seeking thosepeople out and whether those
people I've I've paid mentors inthe past, and I think it's it's
good to have paid them.
And I've also just connectedwith people and have built
relationships with mentors wherethey wanted to help me and I
needed help.
Uh, and so I think having alittle bit of both is helpful
(23:54):
and investing in somebody thatis further along in the path
that you are, so that they canhelp steer you around those
roadblocks is invaluable becausethen you get moved, you know, a
couple months, maybe even yearsahead of where you are.
And you're still gonna failyourself, but at least you have
somebody to lean on that thathas been there before and that's
(24:16):
gonna help you in your journey.
SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
Yeah, and and going back to the biography, like
especially autobiographies,those almost act like a kind of
like a mentor almost, like theway that some of those I'm just
thinking like Henry Ford'sautobiography or um Sam
Walton's, they're they'rewriting it and they're trying to
basically kind of tell theirkids or like the ones that come
(24:42):
after them, like, hey, this iswhat I did, this is what I
tried, this is what worked, thisis what didn't work.
So it's almost functions as a uhas a mentor uh for business,
especially like thoseautobiographies of those like
business owners that killed it.
Um is that do you kind of viewit the same way or I do, right?
SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
I I I think just reading it in general helps with
that, right?
You you understand more, you'relearning more.
And I I think it's a shame in intoday's world where everything
has been shifted towards the15-second TikTok style videos,
like we're not sitting down andreading and and learning
anymore.
(25:22):
Um and I think we've lost a lotin that sense.
Um right, like I can't rememberthe last TikTok I watched, but I
can sure remember the last bookI read.
Uh and like the lasting impactthat a good book can have on you
versus you know the meaninglessshort form video content that
that exists today.
SPEAKER_01 (25:43):
Yeah, that's a great point.
So let's just shift gears alittle bit.
I appreciate we kind of wentreally big on on there.
Uh so I appreciate you goingthere with me.
Um so legacy paint holding, uhyou you mentioned that it's more
of a traditional roll-up.
Could you talk more about that?
SPEAKER_02 (26:05):
Yeah.
Uh I mean, so roll-ups arenothing new.
They've existed for as long asmoney has been invested into
small businesses, these roll-upgroups have happened.
It's certainly not limited tothe home services specialty
contracting space.
Say within the last five years,it's really been the golden age
of private equities involvementin the home services space.
(26:26):
Uh Wall Street Journal put outan article last October
essentially saying if if youwant to become a millionaire in
today's economy, don't become adoctor, go become an
electrician, go become aplumber, go become a skilled
tradesman and run a skilledtrades business.
That is where the future of theeconomy is going.
Uh, and so the roll-up,essentially what we're doing is
(26:50):
pulling painting companiestogether.
And we'll probably get to around20 to 30 companies in the group
before we eventually exit um,pulling their cash flow, pulling
the revenues and the profits andsystematizing and putting a
ribbon on top of the business.
And that's going to make thebusiness inherently more
valuable.
So a typical painting company ontheir own in one location might
(27:14):
sell for anywhere from two tofour X at EBITDA.
Whereas these roll-ups areselling all the time for
anywhere from eight to as highas 16 times their earnings.
Uh and you know, we've talked toprivate equity partners and
groups about where you know wesort of need to be, and we're
right within that range ofeventually being in that eight
to 12x earnings.
And so it's it's the power ofthe economies of scale, where
(27:37):
you get bigger numbers, morelocations, uh, larger dollars,
you're just going to get a muchhigher multiple on your
earnings.
And so what we're doing is thatevery partner that we get
involved with, they arereinvesting back into the
holding company, into the group.
They are shareholders in thecompany.
And so their ability to exit andto exit for a far greater
(28:00):
multiple is is so much more thanthey would be able to ever you
know accomplish on their own.
And it's it's just what happens,right, when a large market like
the painting industry is startsto consolidate in these roll-up
groups.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
Gotcha.
So uh just to recap, um, so atypical, let's just take an
example.
Let's say you have a fivemillion dollar painting business
that's netting a million dollarsand net profit, aka EBITDA.
So a million dollars in EBITDA,aka net profit, um, roughly
speaking.
So you could maybe sell thatfive million dollar painting
(28:38):
business for like two million tofour million, you know, that's
that two to four multiple,because you basically take that
two to four multiple andmultiply it by a million, and
that's you know, roughlyspeaking, you can maybe sell it
for two to four million.
But you're saying you're takingyou know twenty, twenty, um,
let's just say just to do themath easy, twenty of those five
(29:00):
million companies, um, so thatequals a hundred million in
revenue, and instead of justdoing a two to so a hundred
million revenue on the same thesame net margin, which was
twenty percent, that would betwenty million in in net margin,
net profit EBITDA, same thing.
Uh so 20 million instead of justmultiplying by two or four to
(29:22):
get 40, yeah, multiply it by 10.
So that would be 200 million,uh, or even even more.
So um so basically you're you'recombining these companies
together so that you can um havea larger company overall under
the same corporate you knowstructure, and then you can sell
(29:46):
it for way more money becauseyou'll bring in bigger players
that are willing willing tospend more on on a company that
has more EBITDA, more revenue.
Um and then you're and the folksthat are partnering up with you,
it sounds like, and you can uhthey're able to take advantage
of that that roll-up successwhen you when you exit uh years
(30:08):
from now.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (30:10):
Yeah, and and so that that's the ultimate, right?
There's sort of two primaryreasons why a company joins our
group.
Yeah.
Reason number one is wecertainly grow and scale the
business in the short term.
We're providing the back-endsupport and the systems that are
required for scale, butobviously long term, and we have
a three to five year play herewhere you can go from
(30:32):
essentially investing yourbusiness into the group um to
turning you know into amillionaire within just a couple
of years, right?
It's it's very powerful what theeconomics of a rollup can do.
And then even beyond that, tothe beauty of the rollup space
is the the multiple bytes out ofthe same apple, right?
(30:52):
And so when we do get to thepoint where we exit, um, right,
let's say an individual paintingcompany at time of exit, their
payout is five million dollars,just to use the round number.
You know, they might um be giventwo million or three million
dollars in cash and thenreinvest that additional two or
three million back into the nextround that is going to happen.
(31:16):
They will have the opportunityto get a nice return now on that
two or three million dollarsthat they've reinvested.
The next round will just beacquiring more painting
companies, doing the same exactthing, and then flipping that to
an even bigger private equity.
Uh, and and so as that happens,uh, you turn your asset, your
painting business into you knowone dollars today, turns into
(31:38):
five dollars tomorrow, turns totwenty dollars the the next day.
Uh and and that just can'thappen outside of any other
vehicle of the roll-up.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Awesome.
That yeah, that that makes a lotof sense.
And uh uh it sounds like a greatopportunity for some some folks.
So can you talk more about wherewho would this be a good fit
for?
Um, like because I'm sure it'snot a good fit for everybody.
Uh who would really trulybenefit from working with
(32:12):
someone like Legacy PaintHoldings?
SPEAKER_02 (32:15):
Yeah, and we're very particular about the partners
that that we bring on for thevery reason of we need the right
company, the right structure,and the right person at the helm
of these companies.
And so really we're we'relooking for established
businesses, right?
We don't want the the one-manshow or the you know company
(32:36):
that has the seasonal helpers.
We need an established businessuh that at least has a crew or
two out in the field, sort ofbare minimum.
Uh, and the owner of the companyis not the guy that has the
paintbrush in his hand from 7a.m.
to 6 p.m.
every day.
Uh ideally, we're looking forcompanies that are doing$750,000
(32:58):
or more in revenue, uh, thatideally have net profit margins
of at least 15%, or more soshooting for 20 to 25%.
Um and beyond that, we'relooking for ambitious, hungry
individuals.
Uh and when I say what I meanthat is the companies that we
brought in, and I'm certainlynot going to name them, but the
(33:20):
companies that we brought inthat that didn't work out uh was
because they they sort of sawour group and our roll-up as
more of a lack of better term, aretirement plan than something
that they wanted to invest inand be involved with and wanted
to grow.
Uh and there just wasn't thatthat buy-in there.
And and the two companies, olderindividuals that own these
(33:41):
businesses, and seemed like agood fit at the time, but it
just didn't work out the way wewanted it to.
And so we're really looking foryounger contractors as well.
I think that's important for usin terms of the culture that
we're building.
Uh, I myself am 24 years old.
Uh, company we just acquired inuh East Texas, the the guy
running that business is just 23years old.
(34:03):
Uh the companies in our group, Imean, we're 40 and younger
outside of one instance rightnow.
Right.
So we're young, ambitious,hungry guys.
We do have a woman-ownedcompany, uh that that that want
to grow are eager and excited.
Uh, and as long as those thingsare there, then then we're going
to have a successfulpartnership.
(34:24):
Um, you know, and and honestly,like to me, at this point, like
the the person matters almostmore so than the fundamentals of
the business, because we knowhow to put the right structures
in place, the right marketingteam in place, the right
production strategy in place,the right pricing systems.
All of that is our bread andbutter, and we know how to do it
(34:44):
as well as anybody else does.
And we can implement thosethings.
But if we don't have the rightdriver in that vehicle pushing
the business forward, then wemight not even get involved in
in the business in the firstplace.
Um, and so that's sort of likethe the ideal person that we're
looking for.
Established business, young,hungry, eager to grow, and and
(35:05):
wants to create a legacy rightfor for themselves, their
families, their businesses,their teams.
Uh, all of that is superimportant to us.
SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
Gotcha.
And you're the the benefit tothem is they get that support to
you've done this multiple times,obviously, on building the
structure, helping with thesystems, and helping you really
grow that top line and andbottom line uh to get to the
next level so that you you cantake part in the the additional
(35:34):
profits, and then obviously thelong-term play is is that
eventual um sale potentially uhthat they could get that that
high be take part in the thehigher EBITDA um piece there.
Absolutely.
That's a pretty good summation.
Okay, awesome.
No, that's super interesting,and uh I feel like we could
(35:56):
probably go on for the nextcouple hours.
Um but I I know we got a littlebit of a time limit here, so I
want to provide you theopportunity to, you know, if you
have any asks of the audience orany final thoughts, um, I'll
open it up to you.
SPEAKER_02 (36:14):
Yeah.
I I think for the contractorlistening to the podcast or
podcasts in general that are inthis specific niche, right?
You you've probably already madethe decision that I want to
grow, I want to be better, Iwant my own business to be in a
better space and a better spotthan it is in right now.
And certainly a financiallyfocused podcast such as such as
(36:36):
this one.
And so talking about like theeconomics of the painting
business and the roll-ups, andI'm sure that's appealing and
intriguing to some of you.
And we are actively looking fornew partners uh across the
country, right?
We're we're not done in NewEngland, we're not done in
Pennsylvania, we're not done inthe areas that that we are
currently in.
And so if this sounds likesomething that you know might be
(36:59):
worth having a conversation or asit-down about, uh, I would
invite you to go to our website.
It's legacypaintholdings.com.
And there's a little form at thebottom of the website where you
can fill it out and set up aconversation with uh myself or
one of my team members.
Uh, sit down with you, gothrough your numbers, go through
your business, what your goalsare, what your dreams are.
(37:19):
And ultimately, if there's afit, that that is our job to
find that fit together.
And and sort of the the lastthing there is um so much of a
painting contractor's potentialis is all locked in their
beliefs and and and what theybelieve they can or can't
accomplish.
Uh and it sounds really simpleand really basic, but it
(37:42):
definitely is true.
If if you do believe that youcan grow your company to five,
six, seven, ten million dollars,and you set the goals and very,
very specific, like micro-targetmicro goals, every single day
that will help you to get to$10million, you are going to get
there.
You're going to get a whole lotcloser to there than you are
today.
(38:03):
So certainly don't don't limityourself, don't limit your
beliefs or your mindset or whatyou think is is possible because
the second you stop growing isthe second you start dying.
And we we certainly don't wantthat as business owners.
So I I appreciate the time,Daniel.
Uh, it was was definitely agreat conversation that we had
here today.
(38:23):
And um I I hope your youraudience found some some at
least uh a couple key takeawaysthat they can uh implement in
their business from this.
SPEAKER_01 (38:32):
Absolutely.
I I really appreciate your time.
I think it was a superinteresting conversation.
You've you've accomplished somuch so quickly, and uh I uh I
was taking notes, so I'm sureother people were too.
Um I really appreciate yourtime, Benson.
And for the audience and thelisteners, with that, we will
see you next week.
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