Avatar (2009)

Send us a text

Blue skin, big feelings, and even bigger questions. We dive into James Cameron’s Avatar with a split panel: one of us watched for the very first time, the other can quote the timeline by day. That tension makes space for a deeper look at why Pandora still captivates—stunning 3D worldbuilding, ferocious villains, and an intimate language of respect that runs through the Omatikaya like a current.<br><br>We start with the Avatar Program and the ethics of “dreamwalking” into an indigenous body, then layer in the comics backstory that changes everything: Grace’s school, a shattered trust, and losses that explain the tribe’s guarded stance. From there, it’s the full spectrum—Jake Sully’s rapid ascent and the Marty Stu debate, Quaritch’s relentless hostility vs. Selfridge’s boardroom calculus, and the eternally meme-able “unobtanium.” Love it or roll your eyes, the resource grab frames a blunt critique of extraction and displacement that still feels uncomfortably relevant.<br><br>But this conversation isn’t just thesis statements. We revisit why the original theatrical 3D mattered, why the visuals hold up in 2025, and how “I see you” became a cultural touchstone that carries romance, respect, and recognition in a single phrase. We wrestle with white savior optics and push into nuance: Jake doesn’t “fix” a people with superior tech—he sheds it, adopts their language, bonds with their ecology, and bets his life on their ways. Finally, we look ahead to The Way of Water: a 15-year time jump, a family-centered story, and a new ocean culture that promises different stakes and fresh conflicts.<br><br>Hit play for a lively, balanced breakdown that blends fandom, first impressions, and rich lore. If this episode moved you—or made you argue with your speakers—subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a five-star review to help more listeners find the show. What did Pandora change for you?

Twitter handles:
Project Geekology: https://twitter.com/pgeekology
Anthony's Twitter: https://twitter.com/odysseyswow
Dakota's Twitter: https://twitter.com/geekritique_dak

Instagram:
https://instagram.com/projectgeekology?igshid=1v0sits7ipq9y

YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@projectgeekology

Geekritique (Dakota):
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBwciIqOoHwIx_uXtYTSEbA

Alien (1979) Explained | Timeline, Canon, and Lore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9nmyTTlMvo

Support the show

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to episode 139 of Project Geekology Today.
Today we are extremely bluepilled.
Like it's as blue pilled as itgets today.
We are watching Avatar 2009, theuh second to last most recent
James Cameron film uh to tograce our screens.
Rich, this is the first time foryou.

SPEAKER_01 (00:21):
I basically went in completely blind, sir.
Yes, I did.
Uh you uh I've guys the last twomonths of podcasting has been
the most awkward I think thatI've ever done.
I uh I'm a knowledge guy, right?
I'm a I'm a let me go over thematerials 17 times.
Let me dive into all this extrastuff, and let me come into the

(00:45):
podcast and be ready that way.
And these gentlemen, one, uhAnthony, we miss you.
He's really uh by the way,Anthony, as an as a quick
update, he has killed twoperfect black squirrel pelts.
He has two pro two black pearluh two perfect black squirrel
pelts.
I think he's got an Americanprog horn uh also.

(01:07):
Full carcass.
Uh yes, actually, he's onassignment this week.
He is out hunting animals inreal life Red Dead Redemption 2.
He sent us an action shot, and Ikid you not, it looked exactly
like where I was hunting somebeaver and some blue jays this
week in Red Dead Redemption.
So I hope he enjoys the milieu,uh, but we do miss his presence

(01:30):
on the show.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31):
We miss you, Anthony.
Uh just for the for thoselisteners out there who don't
get the Red Dead Redemption 2jokes.
Anthony is not hunting, he'sjust away on vacation.
He's in Tennessee at hisfamily's home there.
Have fun, Anthony.

SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
My name is Dakota, and I am joined with Rich, who
is uh like just I feel I mean, Ihad no idea what I was getting
into.
I I knew uh a little bit kind ofof the the overall idea of the
movie, but uh this should be funbecause we may not have Anthony
with us this week, guys, but wedo have a third voice because my

(02:10):
wife is a vociferous anti-uhavatar person.
There I I've never met somebodyactually who's had a more
negative visceral reaction tothis movie, and I tried to watch
it in secret, ladies andgentlemen, and I'm telling you
that it did not happen.
I actually paused it because thenegativity was so intense.

(02:33):
And then when I went to watch itthe next day, my wave came back
into the room and sat down andwas like, Oh, you're watching
it?
So we're gonna have like alittle third voice creep in
every once in a while, which isunsettling.

SPEAKER_02 (02:46):
It's an unsettling voice for sure.
But uh no, it's it's it's it'sstill pleasant to have different
opinions about uh the topic athand.
As as we found with ProjectEcology, a third voice is
usually kind of fun because itusually means that two out of
three uh of the of the of thehosts or the voices rather are

(03:08):
in sync, and the other one isjust like actually this sucks.
And uh and this is why.
No, so this will be good.
Yeah, so before we jump into anyof our avatar discussion, and
Rich, I gave you some a littlebit of homework today.
I gave you I gave you the avatartie-in comics.
Um, and we'll talk about that alittle bit along with the film.

(03:29):
But before we jump into any ofthat, uh what what have you been
up to this past week?

SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
Well, I finally bit the bullet and I bought
Oblivion, the remastered copy.
I uh so Oblivion is a game thatI this might be the fourth time
I'm buying it or something crazylike that.
So my friend recommended it tome.
I bought it, I started playingit, I was enjoying it.
I got into the Oblivion Gates,and I'm not going to lie to you.

(03:53):
I was downright terrified.
I ran out, I called my friend,and I said, What is this thing I
just walked into?
And he's like, Oh, those are theOblivion Gates.
And I said, I don't like that.
He goes, Well, it's gonna be abig problem, bud, because you
gotta close a heck of a lot ofthem.
And I was like, What?
And I was like, How do you closethem?
He's like, You gotta go into thetowers, and I was like, The

(04:14):
towers! Uh I was I I and youknow, like looking back on the
footage and stuff, it's kind ofridiculous, but I I was
frightened.

SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
And uh it goes from like a peaceful fantasy, you
know, like Western fantasy worldto just hell, basically.
And it's real quick, you know,something happens.
It's only if you're followingthe main storyline, like you
like yeah, you could you couldplay the game for 50 hours and
not experience a single obliviongate.

(04:43):
Um but that's what happened tome.
Oh I didn't know.
So you just got sucked in.

SPEAKER_01 (04:48):
I just was like doing side stuff, and then like
so you know, a week after I getthe game is when my f I got into
the gate and I freaked out.
So I s I I got rid of it.
And then my friend came over andwas like, dude, come on, what
happened?
And I was like, uh So he broughthis copy, so I tried the gates,
and I was like, I felt a littlebit better about it.

(05:08):
I bought it again, and then Igot overwhelmed, I just the
world was too big for me, and Igot scared again, so I sold it.
Then the game of the yearedition came out that had like
all of the downloadable content,so I bought it, and then I
finally did beat it, uh sold itbecause you know it was on an
older system, and now I'vebought it again, so uh I can't

(05:29):
believe I'm here.
I don't remember the quest sofar.
I do fondly I mean, I was veryhappy to be welcomed back to the
world of Tamriel and Oblivion,and specif uh specifically uh
with the dulcet tones of PatrickStewart.
Patrick Stewart.
And it was it was really coolbecause uh my wife actually
walked in and she sat down and Imean we watch a lot of stuff

(05:50):
with Patrick Stewart, you know.
I'm not gonna lie.
So but she was like, Oh, PatrickStewart.
And I was like, Yeah.
I was like, it's a good game.
And it's uh, you know, thegraphic upgrade is amazing.
And to be honest with you, sofar I haven't noticed any you
know, the uh you know, he heruns kind of do like kind of a
look a little bit of a doofyrun.
Uh I am upset about the lack ofI'm very particular.

(06:13):
I have uh you guys obviouslydon't know this because you
don't see me, but I have muttonchops.
I have mutton chops styled afterWolverine.
Uh when the Wolverine came out,it was a summer movie, I believe
it was July or August release.
I went to the bathroom, I wasfeeling kind of randy, and I uh
I shaved my beard into aWolverine, you know, uh facial

(06:34):
hair, and then I came out of thebathroom, my wife said that
looks way better than yourbeard, and it was locked in from
there.
So I am very particular.
I really do want mutton chops inevery video game, and I'm very
upset when they're not there,especially when it's like a
fantasy game, because I feellike fantasy games tend to lead
themselves to kind of ridiculousbeard ensembles.
So that's the only thing thatupset me.

(06:55):
The character creation, I I wishthey would have done a little
bit with it.
I mean, it's still great in forits time, but you know, and and
you realize also that like itwas really cool to ride a horse
that first time, and but nowthat I play Red Dead, you're
riding this horse, and uh I meanthey're trying with the sound
effects, but man, sometimesyou're just like, wow, I mean,
what is that a is that like apotted plant, you know, like one

(07:18):
of those ceramic plants justlike hitting like a table?
Like it because that's not ahoof on a brick, you know?
Yeah, interesting.
You can tell like little thingslike that, but uh the third
person works fairly well.
There's a little janky thingwhere if you're in third person
when you walk into a new area,like the camera is kind of
seeing through your chestslightly.

(07:39):
So you're kind of slightlyopaque, but not.
So that that's just onecomplaint I have about it.
I'm only about probably ten orso hours.
I do fondly, fondly recall uhraising my agility by just
jumping everywhere, and I'vecontinued to do that.
So they did make some tweaksalso uh with the leveling system
that makes it a little biteasier, and they since release

(08:01):
have added also a a new uhdifficulty level called
Journeyman between adept andapprentice, I think.
But basically they added a adifferent level because some
people felt the gap was too big.
So uh so far I'm not complainingabout difficulty level.
I'm at that age where honestly Ilike to play things on easy and
just enjoy the story.
Just enjoy it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (08:22):
That's it.

SPEAKER_01 (08:23):
Yeah, so I got this game Invincible from the
PlayStation Store, and it's uhit's pretty good.
It's uh you're you're basicallyon this deserted planet, and you
have to figure out why you'reseparated from your team.
Uh it's categorized, I'm gonnalook it up right now, it's
adventure mystery.
Uh, and it's it's it's prettycool.

(08:44):
Like you're just kind ofwandering around, and y you
know, there's like a you you cansprint a little bit and stuff,
but it's really just point andclick.
But I think they did a reallygreat job of pointing and
clicking.
You know, like you're you'relimited, you're very limited.
You know, you can't just climbany ledge, for example.
You have to go to the ledgethat's approportioned for you to

(09:04):
be able to climb, you know,things like that.
Sure.
So it's a really simple game,like in terms of gigabytes, it's
like 12 gigabytes.
So it's like really but but thegraphics are like shockingly
good for such a you knowminimalist game.
There's like these f like loreflashbacks and stuff.
So definitely a game that Iwould recommend checking out
right now.
It seems to be low cost.

(09:25):
Uh like I said, running on theUnreal Engine.
I I I think it's actually uh Idon't know what the story is
yet.
I mean, I I I can tell thatthere are conversations I'm
having that might lead one wayor another, but I w you know it
says that you'll face thesedecisions that will shape the
outcome of the story.
Whether it doesn't whether itreally does or not, I'm not

(09:47):
there yet, but it's it's alittle haunting.
There's uh you know, you youkind of encounter members of
your team and you don't knowwhat's going on with them, so uh
I'm kind of excited.

SPEAKER_02 (09:57):
Nice.
That's that's awesome.
I I didn't know I I don't thinkI've heard of Invincible, so I
have to look it up.
But yeah, that's that soundsgood.

SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
What are you went up to?

SPEAKER_02 (10:05):
I have been just working a lot, but while I have
been working, I finished theaudio drama or sorry, the
audiobook of the novelization ofAlien Isolation, uh, which is
the the sequel to Alien withRipley's daughter, um, and how
she kind of encounters uh she'sshe's in search of Ripley, you

(10:29):
know, like she hears thatthere's news about the Nostromo,
like someone found like theflight recorder, so she's off on
an adventure, like trying tofigure out what happened to her
mother.
And of course, xenomorphs showup, so that's been that's really
cool.
I've gotten to the point wherelike I'm I'm really excited to
dive into some of the tie-innovels and audio dramas that

(10:50):
have been created since TitanBooks like took over the
publishing.
And I think there's like 10 or11.
So I'm gonna start, you know,just listening to those when I
get the off opportunity.
And I started with the firstone, Out of the Shadows, which
is interesting.
Yeah, I don't I don't have likeany like positives or negatives
about it yet, but I'm I'm maybelike a quarter of the way
through uh just enjoying somemore alien content while I while

(11:12):
I can.
You know, it's it's in terms oftie-in stuff, it probably yeah,
so like Star Wars, they rebootedtheir timeline around 2014.
And Alien, while it didn'treboot its timeline, it it
started publishing under a newpublisher in around 2014, so
people kind of take that as likethe current canon of the tie-in

(11:35):
material.
Um, but Star Wars has like 10times the amount of books in the
same time period.

SPEAKER_01 (11:41):
Let's not let's not discuss, let's not discuss how
furious I am because I was afull legends bro.
I'm tell there's no you may notmeet a person who knew more
about the legend like that.
The period they erased, alright,is maybe the period of Star Wars
that I may have known the mostabout.

(12:01):
Let's just put it this way, Ihad a car called the Lady Luck.
And some of you out there mightbe saying, What's that?
What's that, Rich?
I've never heard of the LadyLuck.
And I'll tell you what the LadyLuck is.
It was the ship that Lando ownedthat is not canon anymore, that
was a luxury cruise line.
And I had a Lincoln Town car, aluxury car.
And it was, of course, in 1997.

(12:22):
But still, I got a littleversion of the Lady Luck that I
found on eBay, because I thinkHasbro made this actual ship,
and now with one fell swoop,Eisner just said no.
No, Bob Iger said no.
I don't want it.
It was Iger, yeah.
That jerk.
Sorry, sorry, I get upset.

SPEAKER_02 (12:41):
Bob Iger did make some you know good decisions, I
will say, in his tenure.
Uh, one of them being to buy 20uh 20th century fox.
Well, yeah.
Book Book of Boba Fett.
Book of Oba Fett, uh KellyWalkenobius.
Uh yeah, it's it's the the 5 MCUBob Iger's.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.

(13:02):
Yeah.
Um, and Avatar was part of that20th Century Fox deal.
How did you do that?

SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
That's amazing.
You brought it back to the topicat hand.
I'm really good at this, mydude.

SPEAKER_02 (13:13):
Been doing it a long time.
Uh, but before Disney bought,you know, uh Fox and X-Men and
Fantastic Four, which didn't dovery well at the box office, and
Avatar, which did do very wellat the box office, they uh, you
know, Fox made the the rightcall by you know betting on

(13:36):
James Cameron and uh made thebiggest movie of all time.
It's it's legit the biggestmovie of all time.

SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
You could one could say it's Titanic.

SPEAKER_02 (13:46):
It is Titanic, it is bigger than Titanic somehow.
Yeah, no, it's uh never betnever bet against James Cameron,
which uh is very excitingbecause he's coming out with his
third Avatar movie later thisyear, which we will be covering
on the podcast as soon as we getthe opportunity.
And I'm I'm very excited.

(14:07):
I think I saw the second movielike five times in theaters.
It was I don't know how you feltabout this, Rich.
I I have no idea what whetheryou liked this movie or didn't
like this movie.
The second movie is levels ofmagnitude different, like
better, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
I've heard I've heard this.
It's I I I will say I don't haveI don't have super strong
feelings in either direction.
I'm like I ended the movie and Isaid, oh, that was fun.
You know, like I enjoyed it.
But I have heard Scuttlebutt.
I can't obviously I'm notallowed the embargo that is
placed on me.

(14:42):
Uh the it's almost like I I getcharged a tariff if I if I go
ahead and engage in any materialpast what we're watching.

SPEAKER_02 (14:51):
So yeah, uh Rich Rich uh was was very perturbed
the past couple months as wewere covering the alien movies,
as you know, he wasn't allowedto uh skip ahead and watch the
movies in advance, and there'sseven movies and there's the TV
show that we covered.
And I personally, and I thinkAnthony agrees on this, made it

(15:12):
made the show better becausenobody's jumping ahead and
saying, well, in this movie it'sgonna be even better than this
movie because of this, this.
And I'm I as I'm I I realize theirony of me saying that, as I'm
saying the way of water is likegonna be the discussion that's
more fun.
But let's talk about Avatar.
Um, yeah, so Bob Bob Iger, uh,even before he bought 20th

(15:34):
Century Fox, Greenlit aAvatar-themed land in uh
Disney's Animal Kingdom inOrlando, and it's like one of my
favorite places uh in like atheme park.
It's just it's got the floatingmountains, um it's got like the
the the ground glows when youwalk around it.
It just it does not have a hometree.

(15:57):
There's a ride where you visitthe home tree.

SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
Can I tie my hair to it?

SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
Yeah, no, unfortunately, no.
You can't you can't like makeSahelu with the home tree.
Yeah.
But uh we'll we'll we'll discussall that.
So let's jump into just the barebones of this story.
What did you think of theconcept of the Avatar program?
The Avatar program being theseindividuals, scientists, and now

(16:24):
a marine who are sent over tothis faraway moon uh called
Pandora that you know orbits agas giant and are put into the
bodies, uh like like lab-grownbodies of the indigenous
population to better get connectwith that population.
What are what are your thoughtson just that concept?

SPEAKER_01 (16:46):
Well, I mean, there's a lot of science that we
are skipped out on and just kindof asked to accept, which is
fine, you know, I'm I'm for thatoverall.
Obviously, like it works intothe plot a number of times, and
I know that some of it's likewhen they get kind of like
rudely ripped out of the oftheir Navi bodies.
Yeah.
But just like the the I like,you know, it if it feels like

(17:10):
they should be going back tosome sort of like place to like
unplug, you know, a little bitsafer, uh, at times, and it that
seemed like a design flawoverall.
Because if you're trying tointegrate, you know, and and
like be normal, and then likeyour life the body just goes
lifeless, it's a little bit uhand again, maybe I'm not giving

(17:32):
Cameron the benefit of thedoubt, and you know, he worked
that in as a design flaw of itso that there was obviously plot
holes, not plot holes, butopportunities in the plot to
capitalize on that and and andcreate more dissension between
the the the two groups.
Uh but I I okay look it's wayeasier to accept this science,

(17:55):
right?
And just like say fine, it's itit's what I'm gonna accept when
when suddenly freaking Rileyshows up on my screen, you you
you did this on purpose, right?
I had no again no prior realknowledge, okay, other than this
is a movie with the blue people,okay?
That's what I knew.

(18:15):
And suddenly, after watchingAlien for damn near two months,
yes, I cussed on the show.
Damn near two months.
You have me sit down, andSigordney Weaver pops on my
screen.
So I went, Alright, I acceptanything.
Like, I've accepted it beforewith with my boy Ridley Scott,

(18:37):
and I'm gonna accept it now.

SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
Love it, man.
Oh man.
Yeah, uh, question Did you Iknow that you said that you
might rewatch this one or watchit three times.
Did you ever get around towatching it a second time?

SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
Unfortunately, the names still did not.
Uh you know, I just stick withyou.
Yeah, I got you.

SPEAKER_02 (18:57):
I got you.
I think by the time I I thinkthe second film does a better
job of making you feel like youknow the characters in and out.
Um, but so so for you know, it'sunderstandable you don't
understand or you don't knowmost of the names.
You know Grace Augustine, uhplayed by Segorney Weaver, as uh

(19:19):
you know, that the olderprofessor lady who's kind of
cranky at the beginning butbecomes a uh begrudging ally
along the story.

SPEAKER_01 (19:32):
So so so like it's such an archetype.
Uh I mean I accept it and I loveit, but it it's such the
archetype, right?
Like, you'll never fit in withone of us, like, why would you
give me that guy?

SPEAKER_02 (19:42):
And then I know, I I I love it.
Um, and that's that's that's aone that's one thing that's like
great about James Cameron, isthat he will take tropes, he
will take character archetypes,and he'll make something
completely new with it.
And I think that that's that's areally fun part about Cameron's
whole uh filmmaking style.

(20:02):
But um, yeah, so you you have uhGrace Augustine, who has been a
part of this avatar program fora while now.
We have Jake Sully, or as thenatives like to call him, Jake
Sully.
They look they like compress hisname into one word, Jake Sully.
Uh, who is the twin brother of aguy who was totally preparing

(20:25):
to, you know, go to this worldfor like five years, but like
died like a week beforehand.
And uh he just happens to sharethe genetic like DNA of his twin
brother enough.

SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
It's so stupid.
I'm sorry.
I know it didn't it is it isthat probably that I was just
like this is so stupid, youknow.

SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Like, I mean it also it it does it's it's the one
thing in this movie that doesn'tfeel like it fits with the rest
of it because it just looks sonormal, like the first like
minute of the movie wherethey're like in a morgue and
it's just like guys in corporatesuits and a guy in a wheelchair
looking at a dead body in acardboard box, and it's like

(21:11):
wait a minute, the rest of themovie looks so fantastic, you
guys couldn't reshoot thisscene.

SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
It doesn't make a lot of like it's almost like you
just gotta roll with the punchesat the beginning.
I I I I don't I don't know whythat's that's part of it.

SPEAKER_02 (21:27):
That's part of it.
Yeah, no, I get it, I get it.
Uh so then you have Naitiri, whois the daughter of basically the
clan chief and the clan shaman.
We have uh Atu Khan, who is theOloikhtan or leader of the
Omatakaya clan.
Um there's like different clansof the Navi, uh, and this is

(21:51):
like the main one that JakeSully uh joins in you know in
his journey.
Um you have Naitiri, thedaughter of Atukan, the leader.
Um she's also the daughter ofMoat, the basically like the
village shaman, you know, likethe one that's there to cleanse
people and all that, the thespiritual leader.

(22:12):
Navi term for that is Sahik.
So we got the Oloiktan leaderand the Sahik, the you know,
spiritual leader.
Uh Natsiri is their daughter.
Sorry, I'm beating a dead horseat this point.
Um, I see you.
Oh Nati Kamaya, yeah.
That's uh I see you.

(22:32):
I like that.
Yeah, no, it's good.
I think that that's let's talkabout that.
There's some phrases in thismovie that kind of stick out as
being unique uh in terms of howone communicates with another.
Uh it's almost like saying Irespect you, or I understand
where you're coming from, youknow.
And I I think I see you can havea lot of meaning.

(22:55):
It could be like I love you.
It could be I understand you, Irespect you, um, or any anything
in between that, you know, and Ithink that's part of uh why it's
such a cool turn of phrase.
And it becomes such a even intothe second movie, there's a a
scene in the second movie wherelike one of the characters says,
I see you.

(23:15):
And it's it it's one of thosescenes that like actually brings
me to tears.
Not gonna lie, like secondmovie, I watch it to feel
something.
Like I genuinely watch thesecond movie to feel something.

SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
It's almost like talking about one movie um
becomes that much more enjoyablewhen you talk about like a a
movie around it.

SPEAKER_02 (23:35):
I I see where this is going.
Rich, here's the thing.
Here's the thing.
I'm I'm capable of separatingthis title and this title, they
don't merge for me, they're notthe same thing.
You just wait 10 years, alright.
I know.
I I God I'm looking forward tothat.
Yeah, so you you mentioned thatit seems like a a design flaw

(23:57):
that the avatars don't have aplace where they kind of like
log off, but they do actually.
At the beginning of the um, likeone of the first, I think it's
the first night of Jake in hisavatar, they go to like a
bunker.
Like all the avatars go to abunker.
And you know, he's looking athis, you know, his uh his little

(24:18):
tail thing, and he's just like,huh, this is weird.
And Grace is like, don't playwith that, you'll go blind.
It's funny.
Yeah, I know.
But okay, so he's supposed toend up there, but the day that
he goes out with them and ischased by that beast and
eventually found by Naytiri andthe Omatakaya people, that

(24:39):
obviously like goes out thewindow because he's now kind of
infiltrated their camp.

SPEAKER_01 (24:44):
Alright, yeah.
Now now now that's coming backto me.
That makes more sense now.
So, alright.
So, like they I still, I mean, Iget it's a very complicated
movie.

SPEAKER_02 (24:52):
Because like they're and it's a long movie.

SPEAKER_01 (24:54):
The thing is, like, there's a lot of things.
They don't if they'veacknowledged to like the Navi
know that they're I'm sorry,what is it?
It's not is it dream walkers?
What do they call them?
Is it I want to say it's I thinkit's dream walkers or something.

SPEAKER_02 (25:10):
What do they call uh yeah, so the Navi call them
dream walkers.

SPEAKER_01 (25:14):
So like they're they call them like they're
dreamwalkers, so they theyalready know them.
Like, I I don't know.
I I guess like I part of me islike, wouldn't you want to be
more undercover?
Uh but it's like that they'rewere they just past that point
in their interactions, likewhere they wanted to reveal
themselves.

SPEAKER_02 (25:33):
Yeah, so I mean we I you read at least one uh you
read a couple of the comics thatI said.
Yeah, like I know the the firstthe first was Adapter Die.
I mean that's not the first onethat came out, you know, in
release order, but like that'sthe earliest in the timeline
that we have story-wise of thosecomics.
So Adapter Die follows like 12years before the events of

(25:56):
Avatar.
And it's about how GraceAugustine convinces the
Omatakaya people to start aschool so that they can teach
the children the ways of the skypeople, and the the children
could teach the you know thisthe humans how the omatakaya
live, basically.
It's kind of a bridging ofthings.

(26:17):
We never see the school ineither this movie or in the
comic book.
At some point, between those twoevents, the the school actually
gets shot up.
Oh um by by some of the likeRDA, the the humans.
They they they tried to like I Iguess there was kind of like a

(26:38):
rebellion within some of the thekids of the the Omatakaya at
that point.
The RDA show up and they theykill a couple of the kids,
basically.
And that that is part of whythere's such a huge tension
between the dreamwalkers and theomatikaya people at the
beginning of this movie, andthat's why they allowed Jake
Sully to show up where theothers they are like

(27:00):
apprehensive because there'sthey haven't seen a dreamwalker
who has you know been a warriorbefore this, you know.
They've all been scientists,whatever.
So um that's part of it.
And you know, in the the secondbook that you read, I believe
it's uh Sute's path or Sute'sjourney.
Yeah, he goes to the the theTree of Souls, the tree of

(27:24):
voices, and he you know cconnects to it and he sees the
the he sees Silwanen, which isNayti's sister, Natiri's older
sister who died in that schoolshooting, basically.
So his true love was Naitiri'solder sister.
So that's that's part of thiswhole convoluted thing, I know.
Um and uh you guys listening athome are just like, oh but yeah.

(27:48):
So let's talk about the thestory itself.
Because, you know, a lot ofpeople, you know, they they like
to uh I guess boil it down toit's Pocahontas in space or it's
dances with wolves or this orthat.
And yeah, there there are a lotof stories that kind of fall
into this category of you know,uh advanced civilization visits

(28:12):
uh a native people and learnthat what they're doing is
wrong.
You know, there's there's athere's a bunch of stories that
fall into that path.
How do you feel about Jake Sullyas a character coming into this
world, where he starts and wherehe ends?

SPEAKER_01 (28:30):
Well, okay, it it it was predictable, right?
Is I mean I I because of that,like the trope, yeah.
You know, like it it it is kindof like Pocahontasy.
It feels like his kind ofmovement or his growth or
character development from thebeginning to the end does seem a

(28:52):
little sped up, for lack of abetter word, right?
Like he you know, you you kindof don't really know who this
guy was too much, other thanthat he was a jarhead, you know,
and and now he just he takes soincredibly quickly to
everything.
Like he's he's great atcontrolling the body and being

(29:16):
in there, right?
He's so good at everything, likehe's a jar head who learns
language incredibly quickly.
Uh he's a he's a military guywho very early on demonstrates
that he's willing to breakmilitary protocol.

(29:36):
Like he's he he like he breaksthe chain of command
essentially, you know, and andthinks for himself.
Which I don't know if this isgoing to be offensive, right?
But I I don't I don't think thatthe I think when you think of
the armed forces, right?
When you think of a soldier, youknow, somebody who takes orders,
you know.
And he granted there there werethere was a reason for it, you

(29:58):
know, uh but I I do sometimesfeel like you know feel like you
know that's another kind ofthing where you can kind of
where the soldier type easilybec quickly becomes or very
easily becomes disillusionedwith those in command.
You know?
It's almost like this is one ofthose weird instances where I
think many times I've said Iwish this was a movie instead of

(30:20):
a TV show when we were watchingtalking about something.
And in this case it's like Iactually wish this was a TV show
instead of a movie.
Like I wish this was like 12episodes so you could more see
Sully Oh his you could so youcould see his art.

SPEAKER_02 (30:36):
Because he's a military dude.
So I mean you can I'm gonna playdevil's advocate here p even
though I don't really know uhSully's backstory too well from
when he was on Earth, but uhpresuming he was uh a veteran

(30:58):
who lost his legs in the war,whatever war it was.
Oh, I think they say it'sVenezuela, they they call it
some mean bush.
I forgot about that.
Yeah.
Um, so he was in Venezuela, helost the use of his legs, and
has been on Earth who knows howlong since then, you know, his
legs are extremely atrophied asopposed to the rest of his body,

(31:20):
so it's been a while.
It seems like he has had enoughtime to be away from military
command to start to resent it alittle bit.
And by the time that he shows upto you know, that that first
briefing when he first arriveson Pandora, he's almost blasé
about it.
He's almost like uh good old uhmilitary briefing, or you know,

(31:45):
like it's something that he'sexperienced before.
So he's had he's been around theblock.
So I that's how I kind of takeit, uh at least that part of
him, you know, like the hiswillingness to break military
command, whatever.
Yeah, I I think he was still atthe beginning, still very much,
you know, a military guy andwilling to get to willing to

(32:05):
have the second chance, um, toto you know do something right
by his you know commandingofficers, whatever.
But this definitely broke him.
Um, you know, just just beingwith the Navi and experiencing
life outside of you know,outside of the confines of like,

(32:28):
you know, the mechanical worldthat they live in, I think
really, you know, gave him newmeaning to life, you know.
Uh what did you think of the thevillain Quarich?
So we have a couple villains,and I I I I really like the
name, the names that they givethese characters, because I
don't think they're real namesin real life.
So we have Selfridge, who is theselfish guy.

SPEAKER_00 (32:51):
Uh just come on.

SPEAKER_02 (32:54):
Yeah, no, it's it's funny.
It's uh it's it's very JamesCameron.
And then you have uh what's theother guy's name?
Uh uh Miles Quarich.
And it's it's almost like he hasgotta quarrel with everyone.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (33:07):
Uh so ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 (33:10):
Yeah, yeah.
But I I I really like Quarich asa villain.
You know, like I don't like himas a character, obviously.
I like it.
He's a jerk, but he's sodeliciously evil, you know, and
he's he's a badass.
Like he he goes outside when,you know, like with without a
mask, and he'll he'll just belike gunning down, not even

(33:30):
thinking about the fact that hecan't breathe the air.
He's just so focused on his, youknow, his task.
It's uh he's I love him.
I love I love Korich so much.
It's a it's actually a hugeshame that he doesn't make it to
the second movie because I Iwould have loved to see him
again.

SPEAKER_01 (33:47):
Yeah, I know.
He's he's really good.
I mean I like the other guy, uhthe actor's Giovanna Rubisi.
Uh he he just is I've seen himin other roles.
He he plays the kind of entitledpower hungry like jerk very

(34:10):
well, right?
Like I just think that he it'she's small in stature, but he
will not be bossed around, andeven when he's wrong, he just
kind of sticks by his hisintuition, you know, and and I
just think that he that he wasreally good.

SPEAKER_02 (34:27):
I found him to be and and his intuition is just
money.
Uh you know, like what are whatare the what are the
shareholders gonna think?
You know, if we don't if wedon't bring this tree down, what
are the shareholders gonnathink, guys?
Come on.
Do we ever give it a forget thename of the company?
The RDA.
I forget what yeah, I don't knowif the R and the D and the A has

(34:51):
like an a meaning.
I'm sure it does.
I don't know it.
But uh yeah, so it's the RDA.
It's like resource development.
It's not it's not whaling Utani,is it?
It's not whaling Utani.
You can't connect theseuniverses.
You can't just connect.

SPEAKER_01 (35:05):
Alright, so can I let me ask you, I'm gonna pose a
question to you.
They're humanoids.

SPEAKER_02 (35:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (35:11):
I'm gonna make things a little weird.
But see, so we're it's like JakeSully falls in love with me,
Tyrion.
A big woman.
Uh, and I'm just I don't know,man.
Like, am I the only one who'slike, I don't know if I could
fall in love with an alien racethat quick.
Like, I'm all about connection,you know.

(35:32):
Like maybe if she got jokes, youknow, he's a huge fan of the A
team, uh, played Skyrim orsomething, you know.
But uh on a practical level, I'mjust like, I I don't know about
this.
I uh it it seems it seems hereally dives uh dives in, you
know, with uh with recklessabandon.
Uh and in a way that um I'm notI think hey Jake Sully, how do

(35:55):
you know you can use your alienbody?
Like I I don't know.
Like how how do you know allthese things?
Like how you know it's there'sthere there's that that that to
me is a little bit uh a littleodd and and even uh Suye uh
handing handing the tight titleover, you know.
I mean it's in that comic, butyou know, we do know that it

(36:17):
happens in the movie.
And I think that's my overallkind of biggest complaint about
this movie, and maybe it'll berectified with the rest of the
franchise, right?
But for them to accept him astheir kind of almost
unquestioned leader type, youknow, when he's an outsider,
where he has the issue that youknow his body can be shut off,

(36:41):
right?
You know, like like I said, overa series, yeah.
You know, like but Luke doesn'tbecome the head of the Jedi
Order, you know, in one movie.
I don't know.
Like even Anakin doesn't gettrusted, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (36:54):
So so we know this this movie takes place over
about a hundred days.

SPEAKER_01 (36:59):
Um now I'm not I'm going to be a thousand percent
honest.
Did not pick up on that, so thatdoes help me now because I
assume this to be over just acouple like uh not that many
days.

SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
I don't know why I so it you can uh you can follow
the the video chats that hecreates.
It'll say recording number blankon this date, recording number
blank on this date.

SPEAKER_01 (37:29):
So you're you're like a guy who has a track, you
kind of like made an effort tomake sure that you tracked the
time of this movie, thetimeline.

SPEAKER_02 (37:37):
I I have a timeline for this film written down.
Um I know exactly to the daywhen every event.

SPEAKER_01 (37:46):
Is there like a place that uh people listening
could maybe investigate thiskind of uh timeline?

SPEAKER_02 (37:52):
If you go to Geek Critique, G-E-E-K-R-I-T-I-Q-U-E
on YouTube, yeah, you'll find acouple avatar videos.
Uh one is a complete avatartimeline between the first and
second films.
It came out a couple years ago.
It's probably a little outdatednow because there's a video game
out as well.
Now there's uh a couple morecomics out now, and there's

(38:16):
about to be a third film.
And then there's a film orthere's a video where I talk
about everything that happenedin the 15 years between the
first and second movies.
So, yes, spoiler rich, there's a15-year gap between the movies.

SPEAKER_01 (38:28):
By the way, guys, do you think Deck Lopez uh over
here, uh Dek Lopez told me thatI should go check that out
before we watch this?
No, no, I uh no.
He didn't give me this, allright.
So, you know what?
The hundred days, I'm not gonnalie to you, that that does make
a difference.
Like it's still, you know, alittle less than I think I would

(38:50):
want, but I I can accept it.

SPEAKER_02 (38:51):
I hear you.
I see you, Rich.
Um I definitely see you on this.
Yeah, no, I it has that secondact structure where it just kind
of becomes a big montagesequence of like, hey, I'm
getting to know the clan.
They're starting to trust me.
I'm allowed to fly on one oftheir things now.
They're making me one of thepeople tomorrow.

(39:13):
You know, it's it becomes one ofthose uh you know Rocky montages
uh where you know eventuallyhe's ready for battle um when
when when he needs to be readyfor battle, basically.
Uh but I do think, yeah, you'reright, he is a bit of a Marty
Stew.
You know, it's the up it's theuh gender-flipped uh Mary Sue,

(39:35):
uh where the character justseems to have a knack for
everything that they put theirmind to.
That's not to say that hedoesn't try and he doesn't, you
know, make mistakes and hedoesn't start things at a place
of awkwardness.
But I think it's his willpower,the the the character of Jake
Soley.
I think he just has thewillpower to prove himself

(39:56):
because he couldn't uh in hishuman form prove himself
anymore.
So I think that's that's part ofit, you know.
I think it's there's alsoprobably a level of not caring
if he died, you know.
So like I think, you know, ifyou're just in a second body and
suddenly you're like 10 timesstronger and three times faster,

(40:17):
and you know, you can dowhatever you want in that body.
Yeah.
And he kind of has that likepower hungry uh, you know, vibe
at the beginning of the filmwhen he first enters his his uh
avatar suit, and you know, hejust runs out into Pandora,
straight to Grace Augustine, whothrows him a fruit that happens

(40:38):
to be so so juicy.
He bites into that thing, juiceflowing everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 (40:43):
Guys, I you know that this look, I'm I'm I'm
actually having a uh uh this isour unofficial sponsor today is
uh beer monkey.
Uh and it's got lots of uh berrymonkey, actually.
It's berry monkey.
I can't read an English teacher.
Uh berry monkey, lots ofraspberries, lots of juicy

(41:05):
things here.

SPEAKER_02 (41:06):
Oh my gosh, 9.5 uh percent.
Uh yeah, okay.
That's why you can't read, Rich.
Uh that's why you can't read.
Yeah, so you know, just as JakeSully bit into that extremely
juicy fro, please be sure togive us a juicy five-star review
uh wherever you're listening tothis podcast because it does
help us out.
It helps more people get to knowthe podcast.

(41:28):
And uh, you know, we're juicy.
We hope you guys are juicy aswell.
You know, stay juicy, myfriends.
But let's talk about theconnection that Jake Sully has
to Nate Terry.
What did you was it kind of anatural?
I mean, imagine that this isn'tjust like an alien girl.
It is an alien girl, but um,obviously, like you're thrust

(41:50):
into this world, they are actualhuman beings, they're not, it's
not like you're with a race ofanimals or anything, they are
humanoid personages that haveemotions, uh, levels of
understanding equivalent tohumans, and so on and so forth,
and decent figures, they're allin fantastic shape.

SPEAKER_01 (42:07):
Um, I just want one like really overweight Navi.
Like just like one.
I would love to see that.
I would love to see that they'rejust like sipping like some
fermented fruit juice, you know,like getting a little tipsy.

SPEAKER_02 (42:22):
I I wish I could tell you, Rich.
I wish I could tell you that inthe next film there is a fat
like just swinging in a vine, itsnaps because they're too fat,
you know.
I would love that, but uh Ithink these guys have incredible
metabolisms.
I think it they they're so largethat they're probably eating at
a calorie deficit as it is.
So I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (42:43):
You know what they don't have on their menu?
They don't have meat on theirmenu.
All right, that's the problem.

SPEAKER_02 (42:49):
I think I think they got meat on the menu.
Um they maybe.

SPEAKER_01 (42:53):
This new movie fire, maybe the fire allows them to
cook the meat.

SPEAKER_02 (42:58):
Perhaps.
Perhaps.
So, yeah, what did you think ofthe uh Nateri and Jake uh
connection?
Did you you you said that thatwas probably the weirder part
for you.

SPEAKER_01 (43:08):
Yeah, I mean it it gives me like it actually gives
me dirty dancing vibes, youknow, where like baby's not
supposed to want to hang outwith uh I can't believe I don't
remember his name right now.
Uh Dustin uh Swayze, right?
And then you know she doesn'tshe doesn't she's not supposed

(43:30):
to she's not supposed to fall inlove with him, but despite all
odds and his and his his roughway about him, she does, you
know, and and and it's it'ssimilar here.
It's it's the forbidden fruitkind of like romance, right?
It's it's typical for thesestories.
I I I could I I know that youwant to have romance in these

(43:52):
big stories.
But like, you know, we've talkedabout you know in The Hobbit
where there's that fake romancewith uh uh Keely, I think it is,
and uh the made up elf that theyuh they put in the movie uh the
uh Evangeline Lily, you know.
And I feel like it happens.
I mean, I was surprised I wasshocked when I watched the

(44:13):
sequel Star Wars movies.
I don't know.
I was shocked when Kylo Wren anduh and Ray kissed.
I I my jaw I was like, what arethey doing?
Uh I was like, that that theythey didn't that was just a Jedi
connection.
Like, that's not sexual.
Like, what are you doing?
You know?
That's like if like Mace Winduand Luke Skywalker just started

(44:35):
making out, which would havebeen weird because you know Mace
is dead.
But still, like it's it it'sjust like I get it, you have to
include the romance angle, but II don't like it.
I don't like it.
I okay.
I like both characters, and Iguess obstensibly I'm like okay
with like her being happy,right?
But like, yeah, it it's toomuch.

(44:57):
Like, if she hadn't beenpromised essentially to I'm
gonna say his name wrong again,Sutai Suute, right?
Right, because it's like theimplication is that because
well, also the creepyimplication that like since her
sister died, now she has to bewith him, which is you know,
I'll leave that alone becauseI'm just gonna l chalk that up
to like native stuff and we'regonna leave it there, and I'm

(45:20):
not gonna further analyze that.
But the fact that she then hasto kind of step into that role
and then she's promised to him,and then he loses the respect or
he essentially gives his mantleover to this outsider who then
she also loves.
Like he gets everything, right?
Like Jigsuli gets everything,right?
And it's I I wish she hadn'tbeen promised to Suce.

(45:42):
You know, I wish that she wasjust another Navi who did happen
to fall in love with him anddidn't have the role because
she's also the daughter, right,of Moat.
Am I getting the name that nameright?
Look at that, look at that.
Yep, I'm not sure.
Right?
So she's it's like the atypical,like she's an important member
of the tribe who falls in love.
And I wish he would havedeviated.

(46:03):
Like if she's an unimportantmember of not an unimportant
member, right, but like not ahigh standing member of the
tribe.
I don't know.
It it kind of makes more sense.
I understand that like byfalling in by by her being the
one, then more people mightbelieve in him and stuff.
You know, I I I get all thoseit's very formulaic, and I think

(46:24):
that's like sometimes the moviegot so formulaic that I was
like, ugh, you like I stillliked it and it still looks
really nice, right?
But I think that's why I'veheard the scuttle butt of like
two the second movie expandingmore, right?

SPEAKER_02 (46:39):
Or like being Yeah, it it's it's not that story at
all.
It's not it's not the it's notPocahontas at all in the second
one.
So it it completely that is oldnews.
This the second movie is 15years later.
Uh and I and they have to dothis, right?

SPEAKER_01 (46:56):
Like they have to do this movie.
Like it's it's almost like Iunder I as much as I'm
complaining, there's no wayaround it.
You're you're making a newworld, you you know, you're
doing one movie, you don't knowand realistically,
realistically, how would humansreact?

SPEAKER_02 (47:14):
Or why would humans go to another planet, first of
all?
It would be for resources or foryou know a new place to live.
Do you think so?
Um resources are colonization,and what would they do to the
native people there?
They would do exactly what theRDA are doing, you know, like
that's just human nature.
So it's what you have to do aface.

SPEAKER_01 (47:32):
Well, two questions.
Tell me question number one.
Yeah.
Unobtainium?
Did he have a baby?
Did he have a baby in the room?
Like, well, well, you know, it'slike we can't obtain it on
Earth.
It's almost unobtainable.
Oh no?

SPEAKER_00 (47:53):
Anapanium?
Like, what?
What was the motivation forthat?

SPEAKER_01 (47:59):
And like, do you think that titanium is used to
make the perfect birthstone?
Because as you know, allearthlings value birthstones
among above all else.
And when you're born and thebirthstone you get matters.
But what if we level the playingfield and just made the best?

SPEAKER_02 (48:19):
Everybody, everybody gets titanium.
Yeah.
Everybody gets unobtanium as abirthstone.
I love it.
Um so unobtanium is the is isthe stone basically that helps
the the floating mountainsfloat, you know?
Like that's that's what that is.
Like, so I don't really I don'tknow the practical values uh

(48:41):
besides like in transportationand stuff that it would have on
Earth.
But yeah, that's that's kind ofone of those things that you
just have to roll your eyesover.
And I don't even think they sayit in the second one.
Like they they just kind of getrid of that plot line in the
second one.
There is there is monetary valuein the world of Pandora, um, but

(49:03):
it isn't solely in on Optanium.

SPEAKER_01 (49:07):
Anything else, anything else would have been
fine.
Yeah, anything would haveworked.
And it's just like he's beenmaking movies for so long.
It had to be a troll job.
Like, I feel like he knew Heprobably had fun.

SPEAKER_02 (49:20):
Yeah, he probably had fun with that.
Like it seemed like somethingthat like even even he with his
corny one-liners um realize likethis is either gonna make people
laugh or make people upset.
Uh, because nobody rolls.
I don't think I've ever seenanyone who's just like, yeah,
it's just on obscanium, youknow.
Like, yeah, yeah.
Uh no, that's uh that's anactual criticism.

(49:41):
Yeah, I I that is valid, validcriticism of this movie.
Let's talk about something thatyou potentially did like.
How did you feel about thevisuals?

SPEAKER_01 (49:51):
So I thought it would look fantastic.
I mean, what kind of stinksabout it is what year did this
come out?

SPEAKER_02 (49:57):
This was 2009, so it was a year after Iron Man.

SPEAKER_01 (50:00):
Like I watch it now and it's like, yeah, looks good,
right?
But also it's like I justwatched Rings of Power like an
hour beforehand, where theypulled up the new menure, you
know.
And we've spoken at length on uhprior episodes.
By the way, you guys can go backand check out those episodes
that we did in Rings of Power ifyou look back in the feed.

SPEAKER_02 (50:20):
But uh I hadn't considered that, you know,
podcasts you can visitretroactively.
So this is actually news to me.
But yeah, now that I think aboutit, you you have 138 other
podcasts you can you know checkout within our you know history.

SPEAKER_01 (50:33):
Uh it's just it's I yeah, I it's like the draw of
this movie was go to the moviesand see something that you've
almost basically never seen,right?
Uh at home that you can't see athome, you know.
And right.
You know, uh by no m by no meansam I opulent or garish in really

(50:55):
any of the items that I own, butuh I do have this large TV now
and I watched it, you know, andI and I feel like I got a very
similar experience to whatpeople must have gotten back
then, but now it's not asimpressive, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (51:08):
So I'm gonna stop you there, just just because the
major draw for this one was the3D aspects to it.

SPEAKER_01 (51:17):
Oh, really?
Okay, it was so okay.
So like the full goggleexperience.

SPEAKER_02 (51:22):
Not only did it look fantastic, but it was also
filmed in a new 3D.

SPEAKER_01 (51:27):
Did they have like the or like it was they didn't
have any of those like momentswhere it's like I'm gonna splash
you?
Like they didn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 (51:33):
No, no, it just it was just fully immersive.
Like it felt like you were inPandora.
That was what was so cool aboutit.
And that's what it that's whatmade it like over two billion,
you know.
Like that was that must havebeen how did I miss that?

SPEAKER_00 (51:46):
Must have been so cool.

SPEAKER_02 (51:49):
Same same with the second one, the way of water.
Wait, really?
Part part of the the I'mguessing, yeah, 100%.
Like these films are meant to beseen in three 3D.
So does that change?
They look fantastic.
It doesn't change the story.
But like this.
But it because that's a comp I Iwill say, I will say that these

(52:09):
films are meant to be seen inthe biggest IMAX theater you
can.
I go to I go to New Rock, youknow, um, and I go to that IMAX
theater.
Um, and it's always in in 3D,and it's an incredible
experience.

SPEAKER_01 (52:22):
Was it as was it as good as when I went to go see
the uh the Lord of the Ringsmovie, and then they uh they
moved us out of the IMAX andcouldn't watch it because it it
restarted three times, and thenwe just left.

SPEAKER_02 (52:37):
So actually, last time I they were they
re-released The Way of Water acouple weeks back.
And I saw with uh my brother, mybrother-in-law, his girlfriend,
and uh my wife, and um we're alllike looking through the
glasses, and I'm just like, it'slike hard to look at.
I'm just like, what's going on?
Apparently they gave us thewrong glasses, like they gave us
like the four the 4DX glasses,but they needed to give us the

(52:59):
IMAX glasses.
So a guy came in like, I'm sosorry, I'm so sorry, and gave
everyone like I was like, thankgod it happened in like the
first two minutes.
Like uh but but yeah, part ofpart of the the joy of this
movie when it first came out wasyou know, you've had 3D gimmicks
in the past, you've had them fordecades, you've had them since
the 80s, you know.

(53:20):
Uh but this was something thatwas strictly filmed for 3D, you
know, so that's part of theactual experience.
Um, and you had 2D showings ofthis that still looked good.
That you know, you you watchedit on your screen at home,
looked fantastic, or at least itdid, you know, in comp for a
2009 film.
But but yeah, that that is partof it that you can't really get

(53:43):
at home unless unless you havelike a crazy 3D setup.
But like, I don't know, I'venever even been to a house with
a 3D setup.
Like it nobody, nobody gets intothat.
You know, it's just not a nichethat people you know pay for at
home.
But um, but yeah, so that'sthat's part of it.
But I'm it it is cool going backto this movie and seeing that
like this looks really good, youknow.

(54:04):
Like I I I think of like moviesin my my youth, like the early
2000s, like late 90s, that Ithought, wow, this looks
incredible, you know.
Like at the time, I thought, youknow, oh man, Bugs Life looks
great.
Uh Toy Story 2, wow, that's youknow, it really is like crazy.

(54:26):
It feels so realistic.
There was another older movie.
I think it was like that.
Terminator 2 actually still kindof holds up in weird ways, you
know.
Like it's it's weird.
But T1000, the The Abyss, uh,the 1989 James Cameron movie,
that still looks really good.
Um, but yeah, so for whateverreason, Avatar really holds up.

(54:48):
Uh almost uh it's like 16 yearslater at this point.
And it it still looks like supercrisp.
I'm looking, I'm my my thebackground is one of the
characters from the film, Suute,completely uh digitally created
character, and he's got thatclassic Suute scowl on, and he
looks lifelike, dude.

(55:08):
It's it's it's scary.
Like I I can see the the bumpson his skin.
Why this guy has bumps on hisskin, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (55:16):
Uh you guys can't see it, but he almost looks
better than than Jack Lopez.

SPEAKER_02 (55:20):
Yeah, actually, like he's more defined than the
camera, the webcam that I haveon my it's it's uh it's quite
bizarre.
Anyway, yeah, so that that'sthat's part like that's part of
the experience of Avatar is thatit's just it feels so real, and
they did such a good job ofbringing the world to life that
it's just exciting to enter itand then re-enter it when you're

(55:42):
revisiting it.
But we're we're a little over anhour now into the into the
podcast.
Let's let's start wrapping thisone up unless you have more to
say about uh anything inparticular.
What did you have any thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 (55:54):
Well, you know, uh Anthony, big surprise since you
couldn't make it this week.
I'm not sure if you heard, butthe World Series game on Monday
night went 18 innings, and we'regonna go double duty, folks.
We're going another hour.
All right, we're gonna doubleup.
If baseball can do it, so canwe.
So buckle in one more hour ofdiscussion.

(56:16):
Not really.
Uh that'd be wild though.
I uh no, I I I the graphics werereally cool.
I'm actually I'm kind of kickingmyself.
I can't believe that I'vesomehow missed the 3D event of
the century uh twice.
Uh so I'm actually excited to gosee it at 3D, and I'm gonna be

(56:37):
very excited to hear my wife uhyou know, I I'm actually are we
are we gonna be discussing theno, you guys already discussed
it.
So uh just so for you so youknow, I'm gonna watch it and at
least No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 (56:50):
We are we are I am I am instituting something on the
podcast for next week.
We are revisiting a title.
That's the first time in ProjectEcology that we've done that for
an episode.
So next next week we are gonnabe covering the way of water,
even though I covered it withAnthony a couple years back.
We're gonna be doing uh the wayof water next week.
Um so Rich, you you can you knowgive me all of your thoughts

(57:13):
then.
But you know, I forget we wehave a third voice on this
podcast and we haven't reallyallowed it to speak.
So uh your your wife didn't.

SPEAKER_01 (57:22):
No, I mean so Vecifra so one of the reasons
that I didn't see it is actuallybecause she had seen it before I
had when you know we were uh wewere together and she was going
off about how much she dislikedit, how there it was very white
savory, you know, how you knowand and I there there's parts of

(57:42):
me that you know, like look, Iwould have been totally cool
with like Sully uh Jake Sullysaving them, right?
And then but not having theposition of kind of power that
he has by the end.
Right.
Like if he was just acontributor, right?
Like it would have been totallyfine, right?
But just that the fact that theylike handed the mantle over to
him was I think probably definuh it's definitely what

(58:03):
triggered uh you know uh Laureninto to just disliking it.
And and once she got that tastein her mouth, I don't think
there was anything that themovie like I don't think there
was any although Jake Suey wasable to uh but that he you know
that he was able to win over thepeople again despite their
doubts, you know.
Uh that wasn't enough for her.

(58:24):
You know, she wasn't one over.
And and I I and I can I I seethat point of view.
And that's definitely like whatI went into the movie with that
background kind of of my wifestrongly disliked.

SPEAKER_02 (58:35):
Okay, so you were you were expecting something
along those lines.

SPEAKER_01 (58:38):
Yeah, so you know, she you know, she right away was
I mean she almost it's crazy,kind of slightly encyclopedic.
I was like, oh here comes, herecomes, you know.
And I I I see her side to anextent, you know, I I get it,
but I also don't think I if Ihave to be honest, I I generally
try to not think so deeply whenI go into fantasy worlds, you

(59:02):
know.
I don't try to think about uhwhat role Theodin uh what world
leader Theodin would most belike, you know?
Uh he's France Ferdinandesque.
Like I don't know.
Like I I don't I don't I don'treally generally make a lot of
those parallels and and granted,like look, uh i it's tough,
right?
You know, we we we learn aboutAmerican history in one way or

(59:25):
or colonialism overall in oneway, right?
And how and then we grow up andwe find out so much of the
negatives that maybe we weren'ttold as small children, and then
you see this movie, which isvery much that kind of story
that we've heard and as adultsrealized that it wasn't, you
know, as as Reyard Kipplingwould say, you know, the white

(59:46):
man's burden uh quite so much,right?
So I I I I think there are justlayers of that that can easily
trigger people into that.

SPEAKER_02 (59:56):
And and I've yeah, that it's it's it's been
something that's like triggeredpeople.
For decades at this point, youknow, like, but I think that's
and not to negate her viewpointof it, because that's totally
valid.
You know, we we do uh learnabout all the colonization
efforts over the past couplecenturies within you know just

(01:00:16):
America alone.
And you you have to make thatparallel because that that's the
parallel that is being frontedto you.
You know, this is a bunch ofAmerican-speaking, you know,
like everyone in this movie hasan American accent, you know,
all the all the all the RDAwhite people have that American
accent.
They're coming to another world,they're trying to relocate

(01:00:37):
people of another tribe, andJake Soly is like part of them,
you know, he's he's infiltratingtheir colony so that he can tell
them this message to get out.
I think where this changes forme, because it looking at it
that way, you you 100% havethat, you know, white savior
story, you know, like you have acharacter coming in to save them

(01:01:00):
from either themselves or from agreater threat.
But usually in those instances,the savior saves them by means
of their higher technology, youknow, or they're bringing their
technology to bear on uh the thequote unquote lesser population
of indigenous people.

(01:01:22):
So the the difference for me inthis one is that he's not
bringing uh a whole bunch he'snot giving them a whole bunch of
technology to defeat the humans.
He's using the Navi, he'sbecoming Navi because he
realizes what's right.
You know?
Uh so I think for me that iskind of the antithesis or

(01:01:46):
antithesis of the wrong word,but it's it's kind of like the
anti of the trope that the filmpurports itself to be from the
onset.
You know what I'm trying to say?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:57):
I I think the only issue is that the movie affords
us and the characters that thekind of conceit that Sully looks
like that.
Because right?
Because like if you do this andlike he, you know, he can't
inhabit the Navi body, right?
Like he's just like white jakes.

(01:02:18):
Obviously, his body's broken andwhatever.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:19):
I'm just trying to say, like, if he couldn't do
that in his in his body.
Yeah, that I I see what you'resaying.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:26):
No, that that's I think that's kind of like what
uh allows it to kind of yeah, itit doesn't make it different,
you know.
I in a almost uh unfair way,right?
Like, because obviously if likeJohn Smith could have looked
more I'm gonna say Sue, I thinkI'm wrong, right?
Or whatever.
Uh up from Africa, whatever.

(01:02:48):
Yeah, I think that's a goodthing.
You know, but the idea is like,you know, obviously when the the
the outsider savior is able toto to to assimilate so much
because of because of uh ofappearance, I think that that's
that that does slightly changeit.
And I and I think that the Ithink you're right in in the way
that like I it it is hopefullytrending in a different
direction.

(01:03:08):
Because I think that once oncethis is done, once this world
building and establishing isdone, then hopefully you can get
to more interesting things,right?
Because what once you get pastthat that kind of basic story
that we that we've uh seen in somany different mediums before.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:28):
Yeah, so this next film that we're gonna be
covering next week, uh The Wayof Water, is an entirely
different beast in scope, instoryline, in character
dynamics, and just abouteverything.
The only thing that you reallyneed to remember is the humans
were kicked off of Pandora,they've been away for uh this

(01:03:49):
whole time, you know, the allall 15 years, blah blah blah.
Um, and how does life change inthat time period for Jake Sully,
uh Natiri, the Omatikaya, andthe the Navi.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:02):
So this is like you know, we know the the this is
when the fire the fire nationcomes and and and against uh the
waterbenders?

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:10):
Not yet.
That would be movie three.
Um yeah, no, uh I had to makeone avatar, you know, the
Nickelodeon cartoon show.
Uh yeah, the last airbender, youhave to make some connections.
There there is quite a bit ofconnections to Avatar and Avatar
the Last Airbender in terms ofum, you know, balance with

(01:04:32):
nature and balance with theworld and different nations
fighting and the different uhyou know, as soon as you get to
the second, you know, moviewhere it's about you know
becoming one with water orwhatever, you you start to like
really make the connections oflike, well, these people are
like waterbending, they're notwaterbending, but you know what
I'm saying.
What I will say to that, youknow, a lot of people will say

(01:04:54):
that James Cameron took the ideaof Avatar from The Last
Airbender, which came out beforethis, but the reason Avatar the
Last Airbender didn't callitself Avatar, just plain
Avatar, is because James Cameronhad the the copyright for the
name Avatar since the early themid-90s.

(01:05:14):
Apparently he came up with thisin a dream.
He has early storyboards fromlike the early 90s of like the
the blue people that he foundthat he saw in a dream.
I promise you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:25):
I just want to be clear, all right.
I don't think that just becausesome guy takes some edibles in
the late 90s and wakes up in themiddle of the night and writes
something down.
Like, do you know how much stuffI would have had copyrighted,
sir?
Alright, like it's this is likeBut you're not a filmmaker, my
dude.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:44):
So that's uh and also the fact that Avatar is
like a word, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:49):
That's that's yeah, no, it is work.
It is work.
Yeah, it's not like a aproprietary name, right?
It's a word that means somethingthat applies to both, right?
Like stories.
So that's so that's the onlything that you know, it's like
you know, let's get ready torumble was also uh copyrighted.
Oh, and um and I I just want tospeak up for Anthony.

(01:06:10):
He just sent me a text and hesaid to remind the listeners
about how excited we all arethat Ripley is gonna be back in
the next movie.
Like, I I have an I have afeeling that Ripley's gonna be
back.
Alright?
Like, I don't think she's gone.
She she you guys kept telling meshe was gone and she came back.

(01:06:30):
So based on everything that wetalked about for the last seven
weeks, I know in my heart thatGrace Augustine will be back in
the second movie in the secondmovie.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:40):
So what it where do all right, let's let's roll with
your logic because I wanna youand you know obviously know
nothing about the second movie,so I want to hear your ration in
the tree like uh Swillinian uhSilwana.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:53):
She's still in like her spirit still inhabits the
tree.
Okay, yeah, so her spirit lieswith her ancestors.
Okay, I see it.
There is a possible chance forfor rebirth in some way when
when Sullyn, when Jake Sullyneeds it most.
Maybe even if it's a decentbody, like she can go full
Obi-Wan, right?
You know, like like oh you liedto me.

(01:07:14):
You lied to me, Grace.
She's like, well, you know, it'sfrom a certain point of view.
You know, I I think I like it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:20):
Okay, okay.
So, all right, so you youropinion is that Grace Augustine
will return.
Sigorni Weaver in some form willreturn to the second movie.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:28):
Of course, ghosts.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:28):
Jedi Ghost.
All right.
Now, what about uh any anyoneelse?
Like who obviously we we talkedabout Jake Sully and we talked
about Nate Terry appearing inthe second one.
Do you have any ideas as to whoelse you would like to return?

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:44):
Well, no.
I think those are basically uhMoen is still around.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:50):
I I can't Moet is still like around.
Uh as as far as the end of this.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:56):
But I think that this is the movie where you make
new people, you make newcharacters, you build new
relationships, uh, you nestle usinto that world 15 years in, and
you I'm just I'm just so pissedoff that they killed Koret.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:09):
Like, I'm so he's the best villain.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:12):
You know, like we've redoubled our troops, you know,
we requisitioned new items.
You know, like this is the newweapon that we're gonna use
against them.
Oh, I love it.
I wish they like they commandeerthe uh I'm gonna call them
pterodactyls because I'm aterrible human, but uh you know
You are, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:30):
The Ekron.
Oh, that would actually be coolif they if if we got Original
Marines.
Yeah, they call them banshees,the humans call them banshees,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh that that uh torok.
Uh that would be fun.
Okay, all right, let's let'sbring this to a close.
Next week we will be discussingthe way of water.

(01:08:52):
Uh Rich, last thoughts on Avatar2009.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:55):
If it was a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, and I don't
have a track meet and it'sraining outside, and I put this
on TBS, I would watch it withcommercials.
Like it's it's a fun it's it'sit's pretty good.
You know, it's pretty good.
I'm not gonna go out of my youknow, I wear you know, like I
don't I it I'm not dancing onthe rooftops or singing from the

(01:09:17):
rooftops and telling everyone towatch it, but I didn't have at
all a bad time watching it.
I I thought it was a I didn'tfeel like it was a waste of my
time at all.
And from everything I've heard,I wanna see what happens because
I feel like this was a astarting point.
Uh and I wanna kind of you know,I mean, look, if you look at New

(01:09:38):
Hope, right, you could say thereare holes there, right?
I uh it's almost like New Hopegets stronger because of what
comes after it.
So I'm hoping that this is thesame case.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:48):
Yeah.
Uh with Avatar and with all ofJames Cameron's stuff, one of
the themes that you can find inevery one of his movies is
family.
Whether, you know, Terminator 1,you have Sarah Connor who has
who you know she's pregnant withwith John Connor.
You know, like that's that'spart of it.

(01:10:09):
She's protecting that seed.
Um, aliens, you have Ripleyfinding the the young girl new
and taking her on as herdaughter.
You have Terminator 2, you havethe found family of uh John
Connor and the T1000.
Uh and and also you have SarahConnor in it.
You can keep going.
You know, you have Titan Fastand Furious.

(01:10:32):
Family, yeah.
If only if only James Cameron uhdirected any of those.
Uh Titanic, you have the youknow, like the the grandmother
and don't took uh I'm not gonnaget into it.
There's enough room for him onthe board.
He could have hung on.
There was, there was, there wasum let's let's we're digressing
with Avatar.
You have uh Jake Soli enteringuh the Omatakaya as his family,

(01:10:56):
you know, like and that onlycontinues.
And I think actually the nextfilm is James Cameron's
strongest family-oriented story.
Um, and I think that is probablythe coolest thing about it
because just think to yourself,when was the last time you saw a
nuclear family on on screen likebe the focal point of a major

(01:11:20):
blood bump?

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:21):
A month and a half ago.
It was called Fantastic FourFirst Steps.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:24):
Nuclear family.
Oh, sorry, sorry.
Uh I feel like a jerk now.
No, I I I I threw that wordnuclear in there just because I
thought Fantastic Four was gonnacome up.
But I guess you could talk aboutuh Incredibles.
Incredibles was you know, butthat was a couple decades ago at
this point.
But anyway, we're we're we'rerunning off course here, we're
running out of we're running outof steam.
Thank you so much for listeningto us here for our 139th

(01:11:47):
episode.
Avatar, as always, tops my MCUuh charts um right up there at
number seven, sometimes numbersix.
Six, seven, six, seven.
Um seven six.
But yeah, no, I I I love thismovie, uh, but not as much as I
love the next one.
And I'm very excited to hearRich's thoughts on uh some of

(01:12:08):
the returning cast and uh yeah,everything.
I'm I'm like so excited for youto watch the next movie.
It's Rich, it is my favoritemovie of the past decade.
Wow, even more than Love andThunder.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:20):
I would say it tops Love and Thunder.
Okay.
I'm I'm excited, guys, because Idon't know if you guys know
that's his top movie.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:26):
It's my top movie outside of Way of Water, guys.
Thank you so much.
Um, we'll see you on the nextone.
Stay juicy, my friends.