Democratize and Diversify Community Giving

In this episode of the Project Good Podcast, host Annmarie Hylton interviews Hali Lee, a prominent figure in social impact and philanthropy. Hali shares her journey from her Korean-American upbringing to her influential roles, including the founder of Radiant Strategies and co-founder of the Donors of Color Network. The discussion delves into the systematic exclusion of minorities from traditional philanthropy, emphasizing the need for democratizing and diversifying the field. Hali introduces her concepts of collective giving and the importance of reconnecting with cultural roots of generosity. The episode also touches on practical ways individuals can engage in civic duties and philanthropy to address pressing social issues effectively.

 

00:00 Introduction to Project Good Podcast

00:34 The Exclusion of Minorities in Philanthropy

01:51 Interview with Hali Lee: Democratizing Philanthropy

02:58 Hali Lee's Background and Career

04:32 The Concept of Giving Circles

07:50 Hali Lee's Book and Its Timeliness

08:39 Philanthropy as Civic Engagement

09:25 The Impact of Loneliness and Community Giving

12:18 Democratizing and Diversifying Philanthropy

19:03 Wealthy People of Color and Philanthropy

23:15 The Power Dynamics in Philanthropy

29:34 The Need for Reeducation in Philanthropy

32:01 The Power of Collectives vs. Individualism

32:58 The Role of Technology in Modern Problems

36:23 The Importance of Civic Engagement

37:02 Philanthropy and Civic Education

37:47 Community Engagement and Local Issues

41:42 The Big We: A Collective Approach

44:14 Practical Steps for Civic Engagement

44:45 The Inspiration Behind 'The Big We'

54:32 Advice for Emerging Leaders in Philanthropy

01:00:45 Final Thoughts and Call to Action

 

Hali Lee Hali Lee was born in Seoul, South Korea and grew up in Kansas City. She graduated from Princeton University, studied Buddhism at Mahidol University in Bangkok, Thailand, and received a Masters in Social Work from New York University. Hali has worked in many capacities and served on many boards, often combining a love of learning, the arts and equitable social change. Ms. Lee has spent her career doing her best to democratize and diversify the field and practice of philanthropy. She is the founder of Radiant Strategies and a co-founder of the Donors of Color Network, the first ever national project that is researching, engaging and networking high net wealth donors of color across race, ethnicity and life experience. She was a member of the co-design team that birthed Philanthropy Together in 2020, built to scale and strengthen the burgeoning collective giving movement nationally, and is a member of its inaugural advisory board. Hali is the founder of the Asian Women Giving Circle, which raises resources for Asian American women using the arts to bring about social change in their NYC communities. In fifteen years, the Circle has made grants of over one million dollars in support of eighty amazing projects. Hali’s first book, The Big We,  hit the shelves earlier this year and it covers how giving circles can strengthen change.

Episode Transcript

Annmarie Hylton (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Project Good Podcast.
I'm your host, Annmarie Hylton.
Project Good is a social impact podcast,interviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is toinspire people and organizations
to develop a mindset that canmove others to positive action.

(00:22):
Regarding the complex social issuesfacing people and the planet, for May,
we are examining diversity, and in thisepisode, we're focusing on democratize
and diversify Community giving.
Minorities have historicallybeen left out of the philanthropy
community in a number of ways, bothas donors and as IVs of funding.

(00:42):
The exclusion stems fromsystematic issues tied to race,
class, power, and representation.
Philanthropic institutions areoverwhelmingly led by white individuals.
A 2020 report by the Council onFoundations and Change Philanthropy
found that people of color aresignificantly underrepresented in

(01:02):
leadership positions across foundations.
Philanthropic efforts often reflect thepriorities and narratives of wealthy
donors who are predominantly white.
This can skew funding towardssolutions or models that may not be
rooted in the lived experiences orneeds of marginalized communities.
Even when minority groups areconsulted, it's sometimes superficial

(01:23):
like being included for diversityoptics without real power or
influence, and setting the agenda.
Systematic racism has contributed tomassive racial wealth caps limiting
the ability of communities ofcolor to participate in traditional
philanthropic movements or as majordonors, even when individuals of color
do give their contributions are oftenoverlooked or excluded from mainstream

(01:46):
philanthropy narratives, which tendto center around wealthy white donors.
Today I have the pleasure of interviewingHali Lee, who has spent her career doing
her best to democratize and diversifythe field and practice of philanthropy.
She's the founder of Radiant Strategiesand Co-founder of Donors of Color Network,
the first ever national project that isresearching, engaging, and networking

(02:10):
high net wealth donors of color acrossrace, ethnicity, and life experience.
She was a member of the co-designteam that birthed philanthropy
together in 2020, built to scaleand strengthen the Collective Giving
movement nationally, and is a memberof its inaugural advisory board.
Hali is the founder of the AsianWomen Giving Circle, which raises

(02:33):
resources for Asian American womenusing the arts to bring about social
change in their NYC communities.
In 15 years, the Circle has madegrants of over a million dollars
in support of 80 amazing projects.
Let's get into the interview.

(02:58):
Hali Lee was born in Seoul, SouthKorea, grew up in Kansas City.
She graduated from Princeton University,studied Buddhism in Bangkok, Thailand,
and received a master's in socialwork for New York University.
Hali has worked in many capacitiesand served on many boards, often
combining the love of learning thearts and equitable social change.

(03:20):
Hali's first book The Big, we hit theshelves earlier this year, and it covers
how giving circles can strengthen change.
Welcome, Hali.

Hali Lee (03:27):
Hi, Anne-Marie, it's such a pleasure to be with you.
Hi.
How are you doing today?
I'm standing.

Annmarie Hylton (03:34):
We're here.
That's good.
I'm so excited about this interviewbecause I think it is timely.
And I think it's timely becauseearlier this year we're, entering
now the second quarter of 2025.
A lot of nonprofit organizationsI would say, I'll just use
the word experience a shock.

(03:55):
Yeah.
From the government of things beingpulled out from underneath them in
regards to funding and just, I thinkit's just not only just, obviously
money is always the needed tool, butjust it put a big question mark about
where are we morally as a as a nation.
Yeah.
And in life.
They say there's always I don'tknow, this is just the general say.

(04:19):
They always say there'stwo types of people.
There's the givers and the takers.
And so every time when I interviewsomeone, I try to find out a little bit
about them from a personal aspect of whatmade them who they are as a human being.
And what inspired you tobecome a giver in life?

Hali Lee (04:37):
Oh, that's such a sweet question.
It's gotta be my family.
I guess I'll, there's a lot ofways in, but I guess I'll answer
this by starting with this.
I'm Korean American.
My family moved to America from Korea inthe late sixties after the Immigration
Act of 1965, which opened up thecountry to people who were from other

(04:57):
countries besides mostly Western Europe,which had been the pre predominant
immigration groups until that point.
And so my family took advantageof that and came here.
And my mom and dad were alwayspart, and I grew up in Kansas City
and my brother and I were the onlyAsian kids at our school, actually,
until Kim Wong came in fifth grade.
And Kim and I are stillfriends to this day.

(05:19):
But my mom and dad were alwayspart of something called ake, which
is a Korean shared saving circle.
I don't know, Anne-Marie, if you'veheard of a INE or a Susu or aa,
this idea of shared, of pullingresources in order to share it with
each other is a common culturalconstruct in almost every culture.

(05:42):
And I'm, I've developed,I've, I'm keeping a list.
I just met a woman from Morocco whohas the very same thing in her culture
and community, and it's called a dot.
So the g that I'm talking about, that momthat my mom and dad were always part of
was social and a little bit frivolous.
I've been part of several gas with mygirlfriends in New York City where I live.
And for example, if there were five ofus in the ga, we might put a hundred

(06:03):
dollars into the pot every month when wewould meet for lunch at IDO or something.
Or maybe it would be two or $300depending on how rich we felt, and we
would take turns taking that pot home.
And we could use that money in mygirlfriend's gift or whatever we wanted,
I bought myself a computer once my turnthrough my husband a birthday party,
and another time that it was my turn.

(06:24):
So we did, I've done thismany times with my friends.
It's a common thing.
And then I had the idea one yearto, to just turn that into a
philanthropic, charitable vehicle.
And that was the birth of theAsian Women Giving Circle.
And we're turning 20 this year.
And we remain an all volunteer group ofgirlfriends who are pulling our money
and giving it away together around a setof shared values and some conversations

(06:45):
about what's important to us.
So I guess I can, that's one of the roots.
And then of course, mymom and dad have always.
They're 89 and 94.
I'm lucky to still have them aroundmy I spent a lot of time with them
in New Mexico where they live, andthey've always supported me, so
I've had a strong foundation of loveand support, even though they never

(07:06):
really understood and still don'tunderstand what my brother and I do.
He works in social changeand social impact as well.
So we didn't really do the, typicalKorean thing of, they didn't pressure
us to become a lawyer or a doctor.
They let us find our path, andfor that I'm really grateful.

Annmarie Hylton (07:22):
Wow.
So giving was I would say almostbuilt into your DNAI would say.

Hali Lee (07:27):
I think it is for all of us actually, Annmarie.
Mm-hmm.
That's one of the contentions in my book.
We might not call itphilanthropy, I really think that.
All of us come from cultures ofgenerosity and it's the modern
American practice, the professionalpractice of Phil Philanthropy that's
divorced us from those cultural roots.
And it's one of thearguments I make in my book.

Annmarie Hylton (07:49):
Yes.
And I know your book.
It just came out, just in this last month.
And I actually in preparingfor this interview, I was
reading lots of reviews and.
We will dive a little bit deeper intoyour book as we get into the interview,
but I think it is I'm sure when youwere probably a little bit writing
it, but not knowing of course, howthe year 2025 would start to unfold.

(08:09):
Yeah.
It's really true.
Yeah.
It hit at such a timely ti period intime and and the reviews I was reading
and things it were, it was hittingpeople's heartstrings in I believe
the right way of, rethinking wherewe are in the period that we are in.

Hali Lee (08:26):
I hope so.
None of us knew.
None of us know the future.
And I was writing this book before thepresidential election and then I was like,
oh God, but I'm hoping that the messagesin my book are useful for any time really.
Because it's really, ultimately,we can go through it, but I hope if
I've written it well, where it landsAnne-Marie, is that philanthropy
is a form of civic engagement.

(08:47):
It's not this elite thingthat only wealthy people do.
If I've written it well,that's where it lands.
And I think that's what philanthropyas a sector really needs to.
Grapple with and hopefully retieitself to that idea of philanthropy
as a form of civic engagement.
And I make the argument in mybook that doing good in a group
is a great way to do good.

(09:09):
Because if you do it arm in arm withgirlfriends or book group mates or
neighbors, or work friends, colleagues,the thing you're doing will be
more fun, which will be stickier.
You'll do it for longer, and you'llfeel a sense of community and belonging
as you do that good thing together.
And in a time, this is another part of mybook, you know that we're in this epidemic

(09:29):
of loneliness in this country and.
Around the world, and thisloneliness is literally killing us.
Dr. Vivek Murthy wrote about thisvery movingly before he left a
surgeon general of the United States.
And I forget the exact statistic, butloneliness is as dangerous as smoking
like many packs of cigarettes a day.

(09:49):
It's as dangerous as drinkingmany glasses of wine a day.
Americans are dying earlierfrom deaths of despair, which
are like suicide and addiction.
It's really tragic, so what are thesmall things that all of us can do that
don't cost a lot of money to not be solonely and for our neighbors and friends

(10:10):
to, and colleagues to not be so lonely?
So I think giving circles, doinggood in a group is one way.
It's not the only way certainly, but it'sone cheap way that we can engage together.
That has a really nice benefit ofalso, of making us less lonely.
Yeah, so they

Annmarie Hylton (10:27):
always as I've read as well about, the giving,
like giving gives you life.
And and especially it's in our,I'll just say our self-absorbed
society that we are have created.
It is it's radical to, to I guessturn back to our natural state.
It's become radical.

(10:48):
Exactly.
It's become radical.

Hali Lee (10:49):
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
I think that's really right.
It's, isn't it so radical to goback to how we always were Yes.
That maybe it did.
Yes.

Annmarie Hylton (10:57):
It's become radical, i've just been looking at
it across the board, not only in,talking about philanthropy, but.
One of my favorite things is food uhhuh.
Even going going back toeven, eating stuff that comes
straight from the ground, right?

Hali Lee (11:11):
Yes.
Radical.
Radical, yeah.
Radical.
That's such a good point.
Yeah.
And it may be just, it might just saveus doing that radical thing, right?
To go back to the quote roots.
I love it.
Pun, intended and unintended.

Annmarie Hylton (11:26):
Yes.
Literally and figuratively, right?
Yes.
Yes.
And I guess one of the things Ialso wanted to since you I guess
already had this natural state or,upbringing of being givers, we all do.
And so then when you went to study, andI know you studied like social work,
and usually people that go into socialwork are, they have a, heart for people

(11:49):
and issues and you, your your backgroundyou, I guess already had this in mind.
I, I'm making the assumption as ayoung person, or perhaps I'm wrong.
Maybe we're just like,it works and I go for it.
No, I think it's true.
I think you're right.
Yeah.
So that was already in, in in yourmind frame of where you were going.

(12:10):
Yes.
And one of the things, 'causeyou have, your company Radiant
Strategies, and then you're alsothe co-founder of Donors of Color.
And one of the things that I know is aoverarching theme for you is that you
talk about democratizing and diversifyingthe field and practice of philanthropy.
So I guess can you firstdefine what that means?

Hali Lee (12:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I have the great luck of workingwith building the research and
then the network with VIS Shiva.
May she rest in peace and power and.
Shindi Maxton we're the three co-foundersof the Donors of Color Network, and I
got to lead the qualitative researchthat became one of the sort of
intellectual underpinnings of the network.

(12:53):
And what I mean by democratizing anddiversifying the field and practice of
philanthropy, because I think that wasthe grand effort that we were doing.
And in my, if I had to pick aword, it would be expansive.
We were trying to be, I, andI think it's a, I think it's a
word that suits me generally.
It's a word that is built into theradiant, my consulting practices, DNA

(13:15):
also like we need to be expansive andthe donors of color network research
and network build is literally expandingthe idea of who is a philanthropist
and also what counts as philanthropy.
And then, I've been in this Giving Circleworld for 20, almost 20 years in my Giving
circle, the Asian Women Giving Circle.

(13:35):
It's kind of the same thing.
The collective givers are sort ofinsisting that collective givers,
meaning groups of people who aregiving their time talent, treasure
testimony and ties together arealso philanthropists and actually.
I make the argument in my book andin a bunch of my other writing that
this is how we've always done it.
It's just like gardening what you say.

(13:56):
That's the roots of what we do.
And philanthropy, let's remember,comes from two Greek words.
Having that mean love ofhumankind and philanthropy at
its roots does not mean strategy,spreadsheets, logic models or KPIs.
These are modern day businessconstructs that we've laid on top of

(14:17):
this thing that we've always done.
And I think what, in doing so, we'velost our connection with our roots.
And so it's an, it's a funny thingbecause as you just said, it's like,
it's almost like going back and alsogoing forward, being expansive for the
donors of color build philanthropy as astory in the United States, the story of
philanthropy has never been fully told.

(14:38):
It's been told as a mostly whitestory, as a mostly white and male
story historically and often,sometimes as a. Dead white man's
story, and that's just not the truth.
This country is made up of people who comefrom everywhere, and all of us bring our
cultural roots of generosity, communitycare, mutual aid, tine, Susu Ari San tda.

(15:04):
We bring these ideas with us and and as wedo, we can, all of these things can infuse
the way that we practice our philanthropyin community with our friends,
neighbors, girlfriends, colleagues,book mates, book group mates, et cetera.
And it's that idea of expandingwhat counts as philanthropy
by including these forms.
And also who counts as a philanthropistby including folks of color in groups.

(15:27):
That's what I mean by democratizingand diversifying the field
and practice of philanthropy.

Annmarie Hylton (15:34):
Yeah.
And and I one word that came to mindas I was thinking about, what we have
been, programmed to look at philanthropyeven when, I guess initially when most
people are, maybe not everyone you alwaysthought about old, older people Yeah.
And people who are dead, right?
Mm-hmm.
Dead people.
Yeah.
Right.

(15:54):
And it was and I started thinkingit's an like a assertion of power.
And so in that being that, obviouslyfor dead people, it's like you
seal the DLCI, I did a great job,tie my bow on my gift, right?
Yeah.
And so I. It makes sense then I guessthat philanthropy in the traditional

(16:18):
sense had that the power tie andfor people of color not having that
power, that they're, whatever theycontributed was looked at as less than,
because it wasn't coming on purpose.
On purpose because it wasn'tcoming from a financial standpoint.

Hali Lee (16:36):
Yeah, I think that's right.
And it's a, it's an on purpose thing.
It's by design, and it's reallyinteresting because that's Anne Marie,
one of the things you're making meremember is I got to interview, I even,
I've interviewed 150 wealthy people ofcolor across the country, and as you can
imagine, how much fun is that project?
I just had a blast getting to talkto people about their families,
their stories, their grandmothers,where they learned generosity.

(16:59):
I remember a few people thatI interviewed in Dallas.
They were new to this country and also,descendants of enslaved people who had
been in this country for generations.
And it, a common theme was learningphilanthropy as a way of, as almost
like part of joining a new social class.
So when you, like the power thingthat you just brought up, right?

(17:20):
Like philanthropy is a form of powerand giving in this formal American
philanthropic way is a form of assertingone's arrival into a new social class.
So some of the folks I interviewed inDallas and elsewhere talked very literally
about, okay, my kids go to private school.

(17:40):
I learned about annual funds andcapital campaigns and joining
committees that have to do withphilanthropy at my kids' private school.
And then I learned that in, in this city,joining the zoo board was the preeminent
place to mingle and network and meetthe, the movers and shakers in that town.
So just literally learning like.

(18:03):
How to navigate new social roles aswealth increase was just a totally
fascinating dynamic that peoplewere very generous to share with me.
And I think you're right, likeit is an assertion of power.
Philanthropy is an assertion ofpower in the way that we've pr that
we practice it, but it's also anassertion of values and legacy and

(18:25):
meaning and community and belonging.
And so let's not forget those otherthings that have to do with our
humanity in addition to the morepolitical I don't know, getting a
head fakes like social class of power.

Annmarie Hylton (18:41):
Yes.
And I was going to ask in, butit the question is always already
answered a little bit, for people ofcolor, how do they, I was gonna say,
how are they different as givers?
I think you just answered it that they.
And maybe I'm generalizing 'causethere's, always these outliers.
But I think perhaps they thinkof the other aspects of giving.

(19:02):
Yeah.

Hali Lee (19:02):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I can share some.
Yeah.
So I wrote this report called PhilanthropyAlways Sounds like Someone else.
And we, there's an executive summarythat's a lot shorter and a full report.
And there are some findings that I'm happyto share just some of the highlights.
For, firstly, there are a lotof things that wealthy people of
color do that are similar to whatwealthy people in general do.

(19:22):
I. The most obvious is educationappears as the number one.
Frequently, number one, destinationof charitable beneficiaries is
often an educational institution.
So just like when you survey, wealthysurveys happen in philanthropy.
The Bank of America does afamous survey of wealthy people,
and wealth X is another one.
Educational institutions areoften the number one destination.

(19:45):
So Harvard and Stanford and MIT appearvery frequently on the number one spots
of the people that I interviewed as well.
Things that were different, the thingsthat differentials, that, or I guess maybe
rather I'll share this as things that Iwas surprised by, things that I learned
though we did not seek to find ultra highnet worth, ultra high net wealth people

(20:05):
nearly a quarter of our sample reportedliquid net assets north of $30 million.
And we had to add a category,like this was in the sort of fill
out the bubble part at the end.
We asked people to just do somedemographic stuff anonymously.
And we had to add a co category.
We had to add some categoriesof wealth because I just didn't.
Expect that the people we were finding,'cause we did not seek the, we did not

(20:27):
seek to find the uber, uber wealthy.
But almost a quarter of our folksare in the ultra high net wealth
category of 30 million and more.
And that betrays a littlebit of my own bias, I think.
And our the researchers, our researchbias about the wealth in our communities.
I think just frankly, annual givingof the people that we interviewed
ranged from about 5,000 a year.

(20:47):
And that person was someone who'sgonna inherit a lot of money, but
wasn't in control of the assetsyet to several million a year.
The median of the 113 that I,that are in the report was 87,500.
That was the median annual giving amountthe differential with the general surveys
of wealthy people in America, which, andthey're rarely disaggregated by race,

(21:08):
so it's almost always way majority whitedonors that participate in these surveys.
The 113 donors and the report I authored.
Rate much higher issu issues havingto do with equity like race, gender,
income, inequality appear in the topsix destinations of their giving.

(21:28):
Social justice was number twoafter education, and you will
never find that in surveys of.
Wealthy people Generally nearly 80%of our sample were wealth earners
and wealth creators themselves.
They'd grown up middle class, workingclass poor, and in some cases very poor.
About 10% of our sample reportedmarriage as a, as their primary

(21:51):
source of wealth and about 10%of our sample inherited money.
And just to be clear, Anne-Marie, this isnot indicative of wealthy people, wealthy
people of color in America generally.
It's just simply in a report on the113 people that I interviewed a large
sample a large percentage of oursample, three quarters of our sample
reported financial support to familywith an expansive view of family like

(22:15):
cousins and aunties and neighborhoodbesties ranging from giving them a few
thousand dollars a year to one womanwho sent over a million dollars every
year back home to her family in India.
97 of the 113 people I interviewedgave politically, which is a really
high percentage but very few did.

(22:36):
So with gusto.
It was obligatory often only ahandful were, bundlers for candidates
and super involved politically.
So those are some of the I don't know,yay, interesting findings from the report.

Annmarie Hylton (22:51):
Yeah.
So it seems I hate to say this, but in away, guess it's being the truth I guess
is that the difference, if I had to pointit out, is there is a I guess if I would
put a word on it there is a. Kind of afuture funding in maybe a white donors
like, okay, education, we're taking careof the kids who can, argue with the kids.

(23:14):
It looks good, here we go, there we go.
But then for donors of colors, it's almostlet's attack the problems now, in a way.
Yeah.
There's a, there's, if I wannalook at what you just described
a little bit, it's okay, thekids, nobody argues against kids.
That's true.
Unless they're totally crazy.
Yeah.
But, and I don't know.

(23:34):
I almost say it's in a way it is howthe society is we'll push it, we'll
push off the problems to somebodyelse, and then the other people are
like let's see what we can do now.
And that's the thing that we face.
At this moment.

Hali Lee (23:50):
Yeah, I mean I think I, I think that's an astute observation, Emery.
And I think it's also, another way ofsaying maybe the same thing is that
the people that we interviewed have alived experience than different, that is
different than someone who is wide andinherit and is third generation wealthy.
The lived experience is just different.
So it makes sense that the livedexperience of someone who is a wealth

(24:12):
earner and a person of color theirlived experience is gonna inform
what they think is important now todo with these extra dollars, which
is what philanthropy dollars are.
It's extra dollars after they'vepaid for their three houses in some
cases, and the college funds fortheir children and grandchildren.
I think we can look at it aswhat's pressing in our faces, and

(24:36):
we can also look at it as a livedexperience that informs priorities.

Annmarie Hylton (24:42):
Yes.
And that I'm thinking throughthat as a little bit because and
just thinking of where we arefrom a nation, but also globally.
I think right now, at least what I feel,obviously we're always a little bit in a
pressure cooker, but I think the pressurefor change is just going it's it's become.

(25:05):
It's getting more extreme.
And I think because I think a few things.
I think people are becomingmore braver vocally now because
everyone has access to the tools.
And what I mean by that is more people,there's more cell phones and so access to,
wifi and internet and all those things.
So people and for the people whoare scared to confront someone face

(25:29):
by face, you don't have to anymore.
Yeah.
You can be anonymous number, 1, 1, 4.
Yeah.
And so people are now more vocal becausethey don't feel that there's going to
be maybe a direct backlash at them.
And and people want to exert theiropinions, whether right or wrong.
And.

(25:50):
And then there's and obviously there'sa, the power struggle that's going on.
But I think, yeah, it's just there isa, I guess an overall a question mark
of what is important anymore going on.

Hali Lee (26:09):
Yeah.
There, I think we, we are in thismoment sociopolitically in the United
States where we're facing these kindof big existential questions, and
I think you're absolutely right.
Yeah.
Not that there's an answer for, theseare big existential questions, but just
to, I, let me, I have a short storythat kind of, I don't know, it's, I it's
one response I think, or one furtherjust to play with that idea a little

(26:31):
bit, Emery I remember at the firstgathering of the donors of color network.
I was at a table.
I think it was 2017.
I can't believe it's been that long.
Or maybe 2018.
2018. Yeah.
Or no, 2019.
God, I'm so sorry Anne Marie, my

Annmarie Hylton (26:44):
brain.
That's okay.

Hali Lee (26:46):
So we're in New Mexico.
Actually, we were just talking about thatbefore you went live and I was, I happened
to be sitting at this table listening withtwo older women, both African American
women, one in her, into her seventies, andone like right there, so they were both
older than me by a generation for sure.
And speaking to them was thisAsian American guy who was

(27:07):
running a climate program.
And he, as he was talking,these two women were chatting.
They were not paying attention, and Iwas listening to them and then I talked
to them about it afterwards and theyboth told me climate is something for.
White people who go hiking, they had thisidea that climate change didn't affect
black families didn't affect black.
The people they cared about, theirpeople, their families, their nieces

(27:28):
and nephews and grandchildren.
They, it wasn't their concern.
And this is for people who hikelike Sierra Club, but this, the
man who was speaking was ma.
He was doing a slideshow that wasshowing climate's direct impact
on black families in New Orleans.
And, all the places in America, PuertoRico, all the things that we know.
And little by little, these two womenstarted paying attention because he was

(27:51):
talking about people who looked like them.
He was talking about their people,their families, people they love.
And I got to witness these two women.
Make their very first contribution toa climate cause because they heard a
person of color making the connectionbetween this issue that seemed

(28:11):
big and vast and almost untouch ofunreachable and also irrelevant to them.
They were wrong.
Right?
Like they were learning.
And they had open minds andhearts because of where we were.
We were in a room full of peopleof color with wealth who wanted to
practice their philanthropy together.
Which in itself is very powerful andmoving, like these rooms, Annmarie, like

(28:33):
grown men would enter these rooms and cry.
It was the first time any of us hadbeen in a room like this where there
was, there were like one or two whitepeople and everyone else was a person of
color and it was all people with wealth.
It's kind of crazy.
But anyways, I feel, I felt so.
Privilege to witness that momentfor these two elder black women

(28:54):
who I got to be in community with.
And I also, it really hit home for methe power of being in a room like that
where there is learning happening withopen hearts and they had the ability
and mindset and community around themto be open to learning something about
how climate change was affecting blackfamilies and black people in America.

(29:17):
And they made theirfirst gift because of it.
So this is a moment of existentialcrisis for many of us, for
lots of reasons, Anne-Marie.
But remembering incident instancesand stories and people and
moments like that do give me hope.

Annmarie Hylton (29:34):
So then would you say that in philanthropy right now, that
and I'll let you apology lay this out.
But would you say that in philanthropyright now, one of the biggest
changes that needs to happen is thatthere needs to be a reeducation,

Hali Lee (29:50):
A rerouting and a recommitment to values?
I think, and some of that can comewith education, like for these,
these two women who I just shared.
And also some of it I think literally isreconnecting to what we've always done.
How many, I don't know if you've beenan executive director or worked in a
nonprofit and having to jump throughall the hoops of the funding, like

(30:11):
the last 20 years of philanthropyhas been this model of philanthropy
called Strategic Philanthropy.
I nickname him Big Phil in my book.
The first third of my book is a critiqueof Billionaire Rich Guy knows best
business model minded philanthropycalled Strategic Philanthropy.
His nickname is Big Phil.
Please feel free to use it.

(30:31):
And by the end of part one of mybook, the Big We, I Ask Big Phil
Respectfully to retire in peaceto make way for the rest of us.
'Cause Big Phil casts a really big shadow.
And the reason Big Phil is, it's notthe model going forward, in my opinion.
I, I ask you and your readers to put animage in their head of the inauguration of

(30:54):
Trump 2.0 in January, this past January.
The three men behind him on the Deuson our inauguration day were Jeff
Bezos, mark Zuckerberg, and Elon Musk.
Those three men control as muchwealth as 50% of Americans.
So to say that another way, thosethree men control as much wealth as

(31:15):
170 million of us in this country.
And that is not sustainable.
It is morally, I'm morallyoutraged by the inequality that
is summed up in that picture.
And I think we.
Don't need to be, we shouldn't beafraid of being morally outraged
when the time calls for it.

(31:36):
And it's not sustainable, it's not fair.
It's honestly gross and it's theperfect picture of the wealth inequality
that is gonna wreck our country.
The answer is a more communal form.
The answer is a more collective form.
The big Phil in the philanthropicsector is a cousin of those
three guys on the stage.

(31:57):
The frame, the FRA philanthropyhas been practiced in this way.
That sort of prioritizes bigPhil over the rest of us.
And I think, and I try to contend inmy book that collectives of us are the
response and are the more democraticresponse to the more individualistic,
heroic, rich guy knows best frame.
That's been so pervasiveover the last 20 years.

Annmarie Hylton (32:21):
And saying that it's it is also dealing with in, in, in like this
I guess the whole oligarchy versus Yeah.
What democracy is.
That's literally what we're facing.
Totally.
And to go back to philanthropy, going fromthat same model and going back to, I don't
think anyone, unless they're, totallypaying, playing the ostrich doesn't

(32:45):
see that there's a lot of work to do.
Totally.
There.
There's the no, no one person withouteventually dying or dying from
burnout or maybe killing themselves.
'cause they're like,I can't do it anymore.
It can deal with the amount ofissues and problems that have

(33:05):
and are surfacing at such a. AndI think, some of these problems,
obviously they've always been around.
We just maybe didn't knowabout them because we weren't
so technologically connected.
But now, because of the technology,then we have even more problems
that we've added to the mix, right?
And those technological problemsare rapidly coming at us.

(33:27):
It's like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.
It's worse than a game of bonam all.
And I think it, it, if we plan to, besustainable as a society, we have no
choice then to jump in and start takingpieces of this and breaking it down.

(33:50):
And we have to go to a collective modelbecause I don't think, unless people
want to start, keely over trying to workon these individually that we're going
to make the changes that we need to.
And I know this is probably a perfecttransition then into your book.

Hali Lee (34:07):
The big we Yeah, I, just to add one idea to that, Anne Marie is I
think the question in front of us asnon billionaire people is, do we want
to put our, the, the five Ts, right?
Time talent, treasure testimony, and ties.
There's actually more than five,but those are the common ones.
Do we want to put our five Ts inservice of these billionaires, or

(34:32):
do we want to put our five Ts to bein service to all the rest of us?
And the answer's pretty obvious, right?
So that means that we have to engageas citizens in order to activate our.
Power, our collective power,because me as one middle-aged Asian
lady, I can't go up against ElonMusk or Donald Trump or Right.

(34:56):
I'm just a little ant, butme arm in arm with you and a
hundred other people or more.
Then we have a shot atmaking our voices heard.
So that's why I think the answer hasto be us collectivizing ourselves,
collecting our power using our voicetogether or pulling our money, pulling our

(35:17):
hours, putting our bodies going out andmarching, like in any form that you want
really, and that you have the appetite.
And not all of us are marcherson the street for sure.
Some of us are quieter, like you don'thave to do all the things, but do some
of the things and do it arm in arm withyour friends, neighbors, colleagues
and college roommates, whoever.
That's the, where I end my book.

Annmarie Hylton (35:40):
Yeah.
So I would say that it's time that we,give ourselves philanthropy as people
and start fighting back for issues thatare right in front of our state face
that we want to ignore because it's,it's become to a point of like just
this critical for just daily living.

(36:00):
Yeah.
And I don't think we have a choice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not a luxury.
Yeah.
I keep telling peoplethe sidelines are gone.
We just we just really can't peoplehave to I, I, I don't mean to be, as
somebody said, don't be pessimistic,but I'm like, no I'm a bit of a realist.
I, I think if we continue thenext 20 years, we just just oh,
we'll just go with the flow.
I think we're going tobe in a very ugly spot.

Hali Lee (36:22):
Yeah, I think you're right.
So like civic engagement, right?
What does that really mean?
And if I could wave a magic wand itstarts with preschool, I don't remember.
I remember do you, I don't,you're not old enough, but do
you remember schoolhouse Rock?
Like I'm just a bill sittinghere on Hill, actually,

Annmarie Hylton (36:38):
I look young, but I'm actually older.
That's okay.

Hali Lee (36:42):
Yes.
So there were these cartoons, right?
And I don't know if, I don't know, I don'tthink my 8-year-old niece knows about.
The separation of church and state.
I don't think she knows about howeven the faintest idea of how a bill
becomes a law or the division of powersor the three branches of government
and checks and balances, so civiceng engage engagement really does
start when they're babies, right?

(37:02):
But what could philanthropy do tosupport that, in, in our, to reengage,
reconnect, retie ourselves to thoseearly roots of what it means to live and
build a democracy, our imperfect system.
But it's all we got, right?
And I try to, I write in my bookthat our system works only I. When
it's citizens, and that would beyou and me and all of us right.

(37:25):
Are civically engaged.
And if you break down what thatmeans, I think it means that care
enough to get educated about what'shappening in, on your block or your
n in your neighborhood, in your town,and you, so you have to get, you have
to learn about these things, right?
And then if you can do it with groups,go out and figure out what are the things
that people that, that are happeningin order to address those things.

(37:47):
In my block in Brooklyn, it's about,it's trash because there's been the,
a proliferation of rats on my block.
So there's like a, there's a we haveto get in, like on my, for my block
association, it's really, it's literallyrats and trees, so that doesn't
necessarily have anything to do with.
Equity, racial justice, genderjustice, the things that I spend

(38:09):
my day working on in my day job.
But it has everything to do with myneighborhood and my block association
and then, and my neighborhood, my,my neighbors who I see every day and
run into when I'm buying my bagel.
You know what I mean?
So start there.
And someone will go to the I don't haveto go to the city council meetings, but
it's one of the, one of my neighbors will.
I don't have to go to the rat czarmeetings with other neighbors, even

(38:33):
though those sound kind of fun.
But one of my neighbors will, so that'sone way that I think we can build
that civic engagement muscle that Iknow mine have gotten lazy and weak.
And if ever there was a time when weneed to exercise our civic engagement
muscles, Anne Marie, it is now.

Annmarie Hylton (38:50):
Yes, I actually did an episode on like relearning civics
because I think what you mentionedis a lot of people, they don't even
know what the government is about.
How, what the basics are.
It's been lost.
So like, when I look back to earliertimes, people knew these things
and, they had it mem memorized.

(39:11):
But now people, they just I don'tknow how it just became such a mess.
It's just oh, I don't know.
I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that.
But no, there, there's actually steps.
We actually have a government.
Yep.
So yes I agree 100% with that.
And and yes, and I like your approachof explaining, like starting small
with something that is close to you andsomething that you're dealing with in

(39:36):
your daily life or with people that youknow in order to make that difference.
Because I'm sure, I'm not living inthe community, but I'm sure if I'm
just gonna be a little bit funny ifyou get the rats to relocate, right?
Yeah.
It makes life more peaceful.
At night when you hear rustlingin the trees, you're not like.

(39:57):
They're at it again,and they're at it again.
I know.

Hali Lee (40:00):
Which is literally what one ran over my shoe the other day.
I was walking my dog.
Oh,

Annmarie Hylton (40:05):
I, I don't do well with bugs and critters.
I, oh, I might have to be like, I'mmoving out to the tent or something.
I just don't do well and I'd be like Idid have, these were some years ago and
I had went down to a downtown restaurantand they were having like, I don't know,
it was like an overrun of like roachesand they were coming up from the sewer

(40:25):
late at night and the street was covered.
And I was like I'm just notgoing in the res The restaurant
will just keep driving on.
Yeah,

Hali Lee (40:32):
I,

Annmarie Hylton (40:32):
yeah,

Hali Lee (40:33):
I know.
It's a visceral thing, it's atotally vis, and rats actually
are a good example because.
I live on a really pretty block.
I love my block really nice.
Generally, really nice neighborsand it's a bubble for sure.
But if one house doesn't use the right ratcon, like of the a proper container with
a lid, like a hard plastic trash can witha lid, it just takes one person that keeps

(40:57):
putting their trash out in plastic bags.
That's that animals can off,that can, easily rip through and
then they're really on our block.
They're always gonna be there,but they don't, we just don't
want them to proliferate so much.
So it is one of, it's a, it's an exampleof when we really do all have to.
Try to do the right thing, otherwiseit screws it up for the rest of us.
So not that we've solved it, butthere are various, I ideas on the

(41:18):
table can we subsidize the tragetting those better trash cans
for people who need a little help.
Can we just do it as a block associationrather than counting on every
single person to do it on their own?
And I think in this case we should, likeour block can't afford, we can afford to
put a, in a little bit of money to buy thesubsidized trash against that the city's
providing for this period of time to tryto get the wrap population under control.

(41:41):
You know?
I, my book is really writtenfor a general audience.
I want, I think it's a, it's reallyfor everyone, it's not for philanthropy
people, it's not for professionalsocial impact people at all.
And one of the things that I try todo in my book and the talking about
it and talking with folks like youis think about all the small things
that you can do to just get started.

(42:02):
Like I, I interviewed a guy.
In Eau Claire, he's a faith leader.
He's a pastor in Eau Claire, Wisconsin.
And he was just telling me some stuffabout, he was getting involved in the
Supreme Court race that just happened inWisconsin for the State Supreme Court.
And he was telling me about one of hisparishioners who is a woman a little bit

(42:23):
older, and she's one of the, like a verybig member, I guess an actor member of
that Tiny Pricks project, which is thatInstagram craftivism account where people
are posting needlepoint and cross stitchand crochet that are poking fun at some of
the MAGA stuff that comes up in the news.
And it's their way of protest, and they'reusing their their what do you call it?

(42:47):
So they have a little bit of a platformnow because it's become a really
popular Instagram place for people wholike to knit and crochet who are also
politically aware and politically active.
He talked about.
He himself is in a, an adult choir.
And their form of I don't know, sittingin their values, singing in their values

(43:07):
as it were, is to sing a repertoire thatis a hundred percent written by immigrants
to various countries, not just this one.
And they are making a pointin their choir to live their
values by singing a repertoire,a hundred percent of immigrants.
I knew I met another person when thiswas actually my giving circle friend.
And a lot of us did this when October7th happened and all of the it was

(43:32):
horrible on both sides, obviously.
But.
The ongoing devastation in Gaza is justcompletely heartbreaking and horrific.
So a lot of my friends in New Yorkwere tried to go eat at and shop at
Palestinian owned restaurants and stores.
There's ways that all of us asindividuals can express ourselves by

(43:55):
spending our dollars, where we spendour dollars, where we, who I hire to do
my taxes who I hire to, I don't know.
Where we spend our dollars is anexpression of our values, right?
So where I shop, where I eat out,also obviously where I vote, where I
volunteer how I choose to spend my time.
These are all ways that individualscan, all small things actually

(44:17):
that we can do as citizens, right?
To express our values and be in solidaritywith people who are different from us.
And it's.
All of these things become even morepowerful when we do them as a group.

Annmarie Hylton (44:33):
Now I have a, hopefully a fun question, or maybe
it isn't, but I guess when you hadthe title of your book, did you come
up with the title of the Big We?
And then and then Why

Hali Lee (44:45):
That's I did, and it comes from this other thing that I've been building.
And actually it comes fromthe donors of Color network.
My small radiant team and I had beenbuilding this philanthropy curriculum
called Freedom School for Philanthropy.
And after we had noticed and becauseof our work that a lot of the wealthy
people we were with and around wanted topractice their philanthropy differently,

(45:07):
especially after the murder of GeorgeFloyd and the racial reckonings across
this country at that time, and covidand ongoing attacks on our democracy.
So my team and I built this curriculumand the arc of it follows a me to we
to big we arc. So it starts with me.
So start pretend it's me,Hali, I'm Korean American.

(45:29):
I mentioned my mom and dadwho have always supported me.
I think I, I stand on their shouldersand my grandfather was a freedom
fighter in Korea who lost his lifebecause he believed in democracy.
So I never knew him, but he's in me.
And if I'm lucky, I gotone Adam of his courage.
And.
Of his courage, I guess, period.

(45:50):
So the first part of the curriculumis me, like my values, my power, my
educational privileges, et cetera.
On whose shoulders do Istand to do this work?
The middle section is we, so for me, mygive, who are my we groups, it could be
my college roommates who I'm still closewith, my workmates, my giving circle.
In my case I'm part of a stitch and bitch.

(46:10):
We get together and knit and bitchand crochet and drink and stuff.
Irregularly, but regularly.
And then the last part of the arcis the big we and what is the change
that we wanna see in the world?
What is my role in bringingand trying to make that change?
What are the systems that undergirdall that we do in America?
Meaning.

(46:30):
Racial systems, taxationsystems, capital systems.
So we touch on those thingsin the last third of the book.
So it's not a coincidence that Iwas writing my bookbook the big we,
at the same time that I, we werefinishing up this curriculum and
piloting it with advisors and Phil,philanthropy advisors and donors
directly over the last couple of years.
And then when I was building thedonors of Color Network, we asked

(46:52):
people to share their stories as wewere building this brand new thing.
So the frame that I gave them, andthis is starting when we were doing the
research almost 10 years ago now, wewould, I would ask them to think about
that same frame, that same arc fromgoing move from a me to a we to a big we.
And the question therein is really.
What can we do together thatnone of us alone can do.

(47:15):
Like, how can we be stronger together thanwe can be the sum of our individual parts?
And I think that's the questionof our moment in this, right now.
And it's also the question that underliesmy work at Radiant and also the question
that sort of undergirds my book.
So that was kind of a longanswer, but it's related.
My book is a, is related to thework that I do and have always done.

(47:39):
It's an ongoing body of work andI hope to keep doing it for a
lot longer and Marie will see.

Annmarie Hylton (47:46):
No.
No.
And I, I feel like it justcame out at the perfect time.
And I guess was writing a book, was thatsomething that you always wanted to do
or was it something that like friendsand family pushed you into doing or?

Hali Lee (47:58):
No, I would say neither of those things.
But, I've gotten, I've had it's areal privilege to get to do this work,
like you and I get to think about.
Values.
Yeah.
And like the world and legacyand what's my small role?
What's the, like we get tothink about these cool things.
Like we're really luckyto get to do this work.
And I'm so lucky I got to, I'm, I'vebeen in this Giving Circle work for 20

(48:20):
years, my giving circle's turning 20,as I mentioned, and as I've been doing
it for so long that I've met all theseincredible people, it was over time.
It's almost like the suitcasejust starts to burst.
I had all these stories of allthese incredible people around the
world who are not billionaires.
They're regular people who have jobsand families and are having babies and

(48:41):
are getting laid off and are moving,and whose parents are ill and dying.
Like they're just, they're regularpeople who are going through all the
things that we go through, but yetthey have this thing that has, they
consistently work with their, they'reconsistently building this practice.
They're exercising their civic engagementmuscles in this beautiful way of doing
good with their friends in groups.

(49:04):
And I, it just felt like I gotta tellthese stories because I had them, it felt
like it was almost like an imperative.
So I didn't always wanna write a book.
I didn't, no one toldme to write this book.
I really felt like Ihad to write this book.
And and you know what?
I really liked it.
Ery.
I had a lot of fun writing this book.
I had a lot of fun interviewing,like getting deeper into the stories

(49:24):
that I knew a little bit about.
And the cutting room for was, is tragic.
'cause a lot of the stories,obviously it couldn't be a thousand
page book, so I had to cut a lot.
And it was really fun to thinkabout the themes that are,
that this project relates to.
'cause I think these stories of regularAmericans doing incredible things is
touches on a lot of the, I don't know,the important topics of our moment.

(49:48):
Like our democracy and this epidemicof loneliness that's really killing us.
And the antidote to lonelinessis of course belonging.
And it's one of those raremaladies that doesn't require
a gajillion dollars to fix.
I could have written a whole book on that.
Anne-Marie.
There's so many, there's mayorsaround the world who are.

(50:08):
Thinking about this problembecause there are economic,
it's an economics problem too.
They're losing money becauseof the loneliness epidemic
in lots of different ways.
It's so fascinating when you readabout it, which I did some reading
for those four pages of my book.
Like people are doing creative thingsthat aren't that expensive, like
installing chatty benches in publicparks to encourage strangers to

(50:29):
talk one another or putting barterstations in church basements or at
elder senior centers to encouragepeople to go in and trade their stuff.
And also talk with the elder people orthe people of the church who were there.
There's a lot of, and there'sarchitectural experiments and city
planning experiments to get peopleto connect and giving circles are one

(50:52):
way that people are finding anywaysbecause they don't cost a lot of
money and almost anyone can do them.
So I'm hoping that, my book,it does engage with some of
these ideas that are timely and.
Of our moment and important for right now.
And I'm also hoping that when people readit, they can see a way in for them to do
something, to feel like they can have alittle bit of efficacy, to feel a little

(51:14):
bit less overwhelmed, to feel a littlebit like, okay, I do have a kitchen table.
I can invite fivefriends to sit around it.
I can add a seat or two forsomeone who's just outside my
group of regulars, you know?
And I guess, kitchen tables are ametaphor throughout my book, and that's
because kitchen tables have been thelocust of a lot of powerful organizing

(51:39):
in this country, especially for women,queer folks, and people of color.
And the reason I like this as ametaphor for right now is that
most of us have a kitchen table or.
A living room with three seats.
Most of us have a place where wecan invite people or we know someone
who does, and we can be invited in.
And I ask people to consider their kitchentables as a locust of organizing for the

(52:03):
rats and trees, or to go to that protestor to go to that city council meeting or
to go meet that candidate or to go eatat that Palestinian owned restaurant.
Or to go, all the things that we canor to acquire, practice and sing a
repertoire of immigrant composers.
It's something that we can all do andit's something that we all have and
it's something that we can all use.
And I to that metaphor ofa kitchen table, I add.

(52:27):
A plea, which is to please add a leafor two, or a chair or two to expand
the table to include people who arejust a little bit different than the
ones who you would normally include.
And that's so that we don't reify echochambers or our own biases to always
keep refreshing with perspectives andopinions and experiences that are just

(52:48):
outside of the ones that I naturally have.

Annmarie Hylton (52:52):
Yeah, I always like the table metaphor because going back to my
love of food and, but I look at food.
Yes.
But food is, I always say anequalizer because everybody
has to eat or you die, right?
Uhhuh.
And so I always say foodis the ultimate equalizer.
Like we all have to do it.
It doesn't matter, if you're a bibazillionaire or a poor of the poor,

(53:15):
we all have to sit and we have to eat.
And so it is the thing thatmakes us the most human.
Yeah.
And having that the table and usingthat metaphor throughout and extending
that table, knowing that this is theone thing across the board that we have
no matter, what place you are in theworld, what race you are or anything it

(53:35):
is the thing that extends to everyone.
And it's at that moment when weare in that consumption that we
see each other as as another human.
Yeah.
And that's what it, that'swhat it takes, right?
Like you asked,

Hali Lee (53:50):
Building relationships and being in community is everything right now.
It's literally everything.
We've got to build relationshipsand build community with our people
and beyond with an expansive viewof who our people are, right?
We've got to trust and be trustworthy.
There's two sides of that.
If I'm gonna trust you, then I'mgonna trust that you're gonna be
trustworthy for me and vice versa, right?

(54:13):
And as you say around food aroundjust sitting around a kitchen table
is really the best way to do it.

Annmarie Hylton (54:20):
Yes.
And my, I have one final question I'vebeen toying with, do I give you a a beauty
pageant question of, the global one?
Like, how are you gonna save the world?
Oh, God, don't ask me now.
Or or I guess I'll bring it down toa little bit of practicality, but
what advice I guess, would you offerto emerging leaders in philanthropy?

(54:42):
That how can they start fostering andlike showing that they're fostering
equity and inclusion without itbeing like performative, right?
Because sometimes I feel thatthey're like, oh, it's the people
go through the check box ofokay we've got the black person.
Okay, great.
Yeah, we got the woman.
Okay, great.
We got somebody.
They have a Hispanic last name.

(55:04):
Great.
Yeah.
They go through the, it's just like wecheck the boxes, uhhuh and sometimes.
And this is gonna sound wrong, butsometimes they pick the people that
they're, like, they know a friendof a friend that knows, and they're
like, oh yeah, I think they havea little Hispanic, bring 'em on.
Bring 'em on, right?
Yeah.
And it, and, but it's not somebodythat like, that really is like

(55:25):
understanding what's going on, right?
Yeah.
So how can they start to do it for,I guess I'll use the word real.
Yeah.

Hali Lee (55:34):
Yeah.
That's a, it's a good question.
And I do a lot of I, I get that,I get asked this a lot by young
people who are in the field and,they're new in their careers, whether
they're fundraisers or non-profit.
Staffers or social impact people.
And I actually think it's aboutbeing real, starting with yourself,
be willing to share some of yourwhy, why are you in this work?

(55:56):
On whose shoulders do youstand to do this work?
Be willing to share some of that in orderto elicit some of those same things from
the people that you're trying to engage.
And I've done a lot ofinterviews with folks of color.
I've interviewed a lot of wealthywhite people as well for this
curriculum that we've beenbuilding and some of my other work.
And it's this funny thing, it'sreally hard for some of my white

(56:20):
friends to talk about culture andpart of the harm that I think.
Racism has done in this country is tostrip white people of their culture.
But when you ask, like I was interviewinga woman and she, she's a very wealthy
white woman and she grew up workingclass, but she's very wealthy now.
She had a really hard timeanswering this question.
Like she started saying I'm a cis.

(56:42):
Cis white woman with wealth.
And I was like, come on.
Tell me about your grandma.
And then the most amazing thingscame out, like I learned about
grandpa who left this very religiousLutheran, German speaking town in the
northern Midwest and left on his ownto go to LA and started this whole.
Thing around music and becamevery successful and ended up

(57:03):
starting a family foundation.
And another family member had beenlike the church secretary and had
been discounted as a woman, but shewas actually incredibly smart and
the real leader of that community,though she was a woman and not
educated in the formal way, like allof this incredible stuff came out.
But it took a little bit of prodding,and the, one of the ways that I

(57:24):
was able to get this woman to starttalking about her grandmother was
to share a little bit about mine.
So this barrier of like professionalversus personal, I've always
thought that's kind of bullshit.
And I think especially right nowwhen we've gotta try to build bridges
across difference and in order tofind the unlikely allies that we're
gonna need to find in order to.
Be a more united, bigger front againstthe attacks on our democracy, and the

(57:47):
attacks on our individual freedoms.
Actually our Constitution and Bill ofRights actually in America right now.
We have to build thesebridges across differences.
And I think one of the ways we cando that, just drilling it down to
that person who's got a new job andwho's maybe young at the nonprofit,
maybe they're a development person.
I really suggest like startingwith the relatedness, and part
of doing that is being able andwilling to share some of your why.

(58:11):
I also recommend to young people I speakwith to use the interview instrument
that's Appendix A in the full reportthe donors of color research report.
It's got the full interview instrumentthat we use to do the 150 interviews to
make that, to, to build that body of work.
And the first third ofit is all about family.
We don't talk about money untilthe last third of the interview.

(58:34):
And I think that's an instructive thingfor people who are new in the sector,
especially development professionals,which I've been, and nonprofit people
who are working on the resource side.
Look at it.
Don't, you don't have touse it, but just look at it.
Maybe there are a few questionsin there that can help you as you
build the relationships that yourorganization will need to sustain its
operating budgets over the long haul.

Annmarie Hylton (58:55):
I like that is something different that I haven't
heard before, is that not being afraidof culture, that everyone has culture.
Yeah.
That white people.
I, I guess I saw it, but notI guess saw as I saw it but I
didn't see it at the same time.
Is that the fear of having a culture,of having that individuality of just

(59:18):
not being across the board the same andnot embracing their own culture that
they grew up in, in their families.
Because every family has somekind of culture, everyone.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and trying to ignore that tobe like, oh, I'm part of the group.
Yep.
But that's actually hurting us.
Because then that takesaway the individuality.

(59:42):
It takes away the humanity, and it takesus the ability to see each other so that
we can start doing things to move forwardin positive ways and effective ways.
And so I think that's a great message.
Just for people in general,embrace your culture.
It's okay, right?

(01:00:04):
Yep.
One of the things like i, I don't knowhow everybody feels about when they go
to death, but it'd be very depressing,I think, to be for eternity stuck in
an all foggy white heaven forever.
And you never get to see a color again.
Yeah.

Hali Lee (01:00:21):
It's literally like a bleached coral reef.
It's a metaphor.
I end the report donors of colorreport on, it's a bleached coral reef.
No one that's a dead coral reef.
Like we, none of us wants that.
Yeah, you, it's, it wouldbe like a nightmare.
It wouldn't feel like it's a nightmare.
A nightmare.
Yeah, exactly.
Couldn't agree more.
Yeah,

Annmarie Hylton (01:00:36):
totally.
Okay.
So I love that and embraceculture across the board.
So beautiful answer.
Thank you Hali, for your time and insight.
To learn more about Hali,go to radiant strategies.co.
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem,
or wanna change minds contactproject, good [e-mail].

(01:00:57):
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