May 14, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode of the Project Good Podcast, host Annmarie Hylton interviews Michael Bach, an internationally recognized expert in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). They discuss the origins and evolution of DEI initiatives, the challenges and backlashes faced by organizations, and the importance of sustainable and authentic DEI efforts. Bach shares his journey and insights into the financial and ethical imperatives of fostering inclusive work environments. They also explore the complexities of hiring for DEI roles and the critical need for long-term systemic change. This episode offers practical advice for businesses aiming to strengthen their DEI strategies amidst a rapidly shifting landscape.
00:00 Welcome to Project Good Podcast
00:26 The Evolution of DEI Initiatives
01:18 Introducing Michael Bach: DEI Expert
04:19 Michael Bach's Journey into DEI
07:00 Current State of DEI in 2025
14:05 Economic Impact of DEI Rollbacks
20:59 Ethics and Business: A Complex Relationship
25:19 Defining DEI: Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion
30:32 The Post-COVID DEI Landscape
33:35 Advice for Companies on DEI
36:51 Challenges and Misconceptions in DEI
43:32 Creating Inclusive Work Environments
48:52 Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks
Guest Bio
DEI expert Michael Bach who is a nationally and internationally recognized thought leader and subject matter expert in the fields of inclusion, diversity, equity and accessibility. He is the founder of the Canadian Centre for Diversity and Inclusion (CCDI), CCDI Consulting and Pride at Work Canada.
Michael has worked professionally in the areas of inclusion, diversity, equity and accessibility for nearly 20 years, most recently as the founding CEO of CCDI and CCDI Consulting.
Prior to taking on this role, he was the national leader for diversity, equity, and inclusion for KPMG Canada. Additionally, Michael spent 2½ years as Deputy Chief Diversity Officer for KPMG International.
Over the course of his career, Michael has received repeated recognition for his work, including being named:
- Women of Influence’s Canadian Diversity Champions
- Catalyst Canada Honours Human Resources/Diversity Leader
- Inspire Award as LGBTQ Person of the Year
- Out on Bay Street Leaders to be Proud of LGBT Advocate Workplace Award
- Toronto Region Immigrant Employment Council’s IS Award
- Canadian HR Reporter Individual Achievement Award
In 2023, he was named as one of the 10 Most Influential DE&I Leaders Revamping The Future by CIO Views Magazine.
DEI expert Michael Bach covers many of these topics and issues in his 2020 book Birds of All Feathers: Doing Diversity and Inclusion Right which is a Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, and Amazon bestseller, and he recipient of the silver 2020 Nautilus Book Award in the category of Rising to the Moment, and a finalist in the Legacy Nonfiction category for the American Bookfest's Best Book Awards. His new book Alphabet Soup: The Essential Guide to LGBTQ2+ Inclusion at Work released in March of 2022 and is a Toronto Star bestseller and finalist in the General Nonfiction category for the American Bookfest's Best Book Awards.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Annmarie Hylton (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Project Good podcast.
I'm your host, Annmarie Hylton.
Project Good is a social impact podcast,interviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is to inspirepeople and organizations to develop a
mindset that can move others to positiveaction regarding the conflict, social
(00:23):
issues facing people, and the planet.
For me, we're focused on diversity,equity, and inclusion, and what it means.
In the early two thousands, DEIinitiatives began to be recognized as a
key element of organizational strategy.
Research showed that diverse teamswere more effective at problem solving
and innovation, and that inclusivework environments led to higher
(00:47):
employee satisfaction and productivity.
Many large corporations and organizationsbegan establishing formal DEI programs,
appointing chief diversity officersand measuring their progress through
diversity metrics, diversity training,mentorship programs, and employee
resource groups became commonplace.
As globalization increased, DEIexpanded beyond the US to include a
(01:10):
more global perspective on diversityand inclusion and addressing issues
related to race, culture, and religion.
Today I have the pleasure ofinterviewing DEI, expert Michael Bach,
who is nationally and internationallyrecognized thought leader and subject
matter expert in the fields ofinclusion, equity, and accessibility.
He is the founder of the Canadian Centerfor Diversity and Inclusion, CCDI,
(01:36):
consulting and Pride at Work Canada.
Michael has worked professionally in theareas of inclusion, diversity, and equity
and accessibility for nearly 20 years.
Most recently as the founding CEOof CCDI and CCDI consulting, prior
to taking on this role, he wasthe national leader for diversity,
(01:57):
equity and inclusion for KPMG Canada.
Additionally, Michael spent two and ahalf years as Deputy Chief Diversity
Officer for KPMG International.
Over the course of his career, Michaelhas received repeated recognition for
his work, including being named Womenof Influences, Canadian Diversity
Champion Catalyst, Canadian HonorsHuman Resources Diversity Leader.
(02:21):
Inspire Award as L-G-B-T-Q Person ofthe Year out on Bay Street leaders to be
proud of LGBT Advocate Workplace Award.
Toronto Region Immigrant EmploymentCouncils is Award and Canadian HR Reporter
Individual Achievement Award in 2023.
He was named as one of the 10 mostinfluential DEI leaders revamping
(02:45):
the future of by CIO Views Magazine.
Let's get into the interview.
Michael Bach (03:00):
Hello.
Annmarie Hylton (03:01):
Hello.
How are you?
Michael Bach (03:03):
I'm great.
How are you?
Annmarie Hylton (03:05):
Uh, good.
Thank you so much for your takingtime today to talk about this.
Pressing topic of DEI.
That's the hot topic out here.
I have to say, I'm already exhaustedjust thinking about DEI all the time.
People are just gettingit's, I don't know.
I guess I, just the, to always havingto be thinking about why we, I guess the
(03:28):
saying is they say why everybody can'tjust get along and appreciate everyone.
It gets it, it alwaysgets so tiring to me.
But it's so important because we live ona diverse planet, and so I wish people
could just appreciate it and move forward.
Michael Bach (03:44):
Absolutely.
That's the goal.
It's just a little moredifficult to get there.
Annmarie Hylton (03:49):
Yes.
And in today's discussion I wanted totalk about where we are going because, as
a lot of people have seen, we are, we'rekind of going backwards with it when,
with policies, especially here in the US.
Before we dive into all the gruesomedetails, though, I like to always
get a personal take on the personthat I'm interviewing, and I wanted
(04:12):
to know a little bit about whatdrove you to become a DEI champion.
Michael Bach (04:19):
Yeah, I, you know, I'd always done work in this area
in some way, shape or form, startinggoing way back to high school.
Where I had was doing work in theLGBTQ plus space, but it wasn't a job.
That was sort of the work you did asa volunteer off the side of your desk.
(04:43):
Because it, I mean, it was a job.
It just wasn't a job that wasgonna pay what I wanted to make.
And so I did the work in various volunteercapacities for my entire adult life.
And then it was in 2005 whenthis opportunity presented itself
(05:04):
to actually work in this field.
And I jumped at it.
I was very excited by theopportunity and haven't looked back.
I'm passionate about I'm passionateabout people being treated fairly
and respectfully and making sure thatthey have opportunities to succeed.
(05:26):
And that's just been amantra for my whole life.
Annmarie Hylton (05:30):
That's wonderful that you started.
I'll say you started before youstarted officially to Yes, I
guess have that on your heart.
And that it was I would say like itmust have been internally a calling.
Obviously when you first in yourvery first thing, you didn't realize
maybe how it would, shape yourfuture or who you would become.
(05:50):
To a lot of people, they never reallydive into that, that deeper a spiritual
feeling inside of them that this is theway that they should, they should go.
So that's amazing that you decidedto step forward and also in an issue
that I would say is often very sticky.
I.
Michael Bach (06:10):
It is very sticky.
It can be very sticky, and I hesitateto use the word calling, but at the same
time it does feel like a bit of a callingthat it's just, it was sort of that
perfect moment where my personal passionand my profession came together as one.
And I feel really fortunatethat actually occurred.
Annmarie Hylton (06:34):
Yes.
And obviously, I'm sure, you alwaysthink, of course, it's nice to
continuously be recognized, but the changethat you have created, I think is always
probably the biggest re biggest reward.
When somebody follows, I guessyou would say their heart.
And I'm sure you have seeing things thatyou just couldn't have ever imagined
(06:54):
that you would be part of that change.
Michael Bach (06:57):
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Annmarie Hylton (07:00):
And so we now find ourselves in a, I guess I would say a
questionable time because here we are inthe year 2025 and we are in what, when
we were looking back, maybe 20 years ago,we had a whole different feeling of what
this would, what this world would be.
We, in all futuristic movies, usuallyit's like high tech and, and we were
(07:23):
going to be sometimes either oneway either utopia or destruction.
But we find ourselves in,wanting to go back to.
Maybe the fifties or something.
It's strange and what I'm talking aboutmostly is from the US perspective, but
the US perspective of course, is alwaysimportant because the US tends to act
(07:47):
as the big brother throughout the world.
And to set an example and alsothe US deals with this issue of
diversity as its ongoing struggle.
Due to historical aspects of how thethe country was put together, everything
(08:09):
from slavery and a history of notjust only slavery, but a history of
having injustices for different groups.
And so I guess when you see these thingshappening, are you shocked or not shocked?
Michael Bach (08:24):
I'm not shocked.
I'm disappointed.
And you'd think at this point, it's2025, you'd think at this point we
were past a lot of this, that we weremaking real progress, but we are still
(08:45):
talking about fundamental issues and.
I see it as a group of people who havefound themselves in positions of power,
who have some very regressive beliefs thatare not in line with the average American.
(09:09):
And I'm talking about things likewomen's reproductive rights and people's
ability to exist, but they have suchdogmatic belief in things that they are
trying to force that onto the Americanpeople which is truly disappointing.
(09:30):
And, but not surprising.
This has been going on forgenerations where we take two
steps forward and one step back.
Annmarie Hylton (09:39):
And I guess usually the, as they say the underlying
or the seed is usually fear.
But I guess it's, I guess for me it'sbeen a shocker that it's not just
maybe an older generation, but evenpeople who are fairly, young or even
(10:01):
some of the youth that they have thisit's a surprising mindset to me, what
do you think has contributed to thiswant to, really pound this, these
ideologies in or to roll back so much?
Michael Bach (10:17):
Oh, I think it's a lot of fear and ignorance.
It's a lot of misinformation,but we are seeing just completely
rolling through our our society.
I think about the president's commentduring his recent speech about
(10:37):
hundreds of thousands of transgendermice, which was not accurate.
Um, it's, but you know, these things haveconsequence where when the president says
there are, hundreds of thousands of, we'vespent hundreds of thousands of dollars
(10:59):
on transgender mice when it's actuallytransgenic, that has a serious impact.
We can laugh about that, but.
People are listening andstart to believe those things.
And I believe that it's coming fromtoo much change, too fast, where people
(11:23):
start to long for the old days, theydon't have enough time to get used
to the the change that's happening.
And they are kind of rebelling.
Their brains are rebellingagainst the change.
And so they long for the olden days,the ways, before trans people existed.
(11:48):
Trans people have existedsince, about 1200 bcs.
The last known reference or theearliest reference to trans people and.
It then puts them in that positionof we have to change things.
We have to go back.
So it's the ignorance andthe lack of understanding
that's driving this behavior.
Annmarie Hylton (12:08):
Yes.
And, and fueled by, Iwould say technology.
There's this underlying occurrence,and this is just something that
I feel is that, we're on the,we're on the cusp of something.
But, I think there's a, an uncertainty.
And what I mean by that, it'sa different type of cusp.
I think everybody, if they're awakethat they feel that there is a
(12:30):
massive change coming that we won'tbe able to control as humanity.
But people don't know.
We can't exactly, put it into words yetor feel it, but I think there's this
feeling of yeah, it's like a, you'rewaiting for a, you see the big wave and
the distance you don't know when it'sgoing to hit you, but you feel it coming.
(12:53):
And I feel like that is that's asentiment that is spread across not
only the US but there's on the worldthat we feel that there's something
coming, but we just don't know what itis and it's gonna be very life changing.
And what you've mentioned, and whyI'm saying that is that you, you
mentioned that there's this feelthat a need for, what can we control
(13:14):
before this, big wave, whatever it is.
A attacks us or gets us or, orchanges everything that we know.
And unfortunately differencesin not appreciating those
differences have been historically.
When people say they, they go to their,the lower nature of let's, let's look
(13:36):
at things that are I don't know ifI wanna say uncontrollable, but Yes.
In a way.
Mm-hmm.
That let's pick apart what's different andto make ourselves feel, back in control.
And the rhetoric that's out herein the US is not only troubling for
many reasons, but it's also havingan impact on the economic and the
(14:02):
workplace and the corporations.
And so how do you feel that, therollback of a lot of these DEI
initiatives in corporations is justgoing to affect I guess economics.
I know this is a little bit out of yourrealm but I'm sure you have an opinion.
Michael Bach (14:21):
No, it's absolutely in my realm.
If the way I approach this work anddiversity, equity and inclusion is
very much about the financial impact,it's about the impact on our economies.
It's about the impact on ourorganizations, and it is very shortsighted
(14:42):
where people don't understand the impactof a lack of focus on DEI on the economy.
I'll give you an example.
Women on average make76 cents on the dollar.
Women work for free for three monthsout of the year when compared to
men doing a same or similar job?
(15:04):
That means they have less money andwomen control 80% of the household
spend in heterosexual couples.
If they had more money, theywould have more spending power.
If they had more spending power, they'dbe paying more taxes, which would
lead to better roads and schools.
(15:27):
It would mean that theeconomy was more stimulated.
And yet people don't seem to understandthat pay disparity is an economic issue.
It's not about fairness,it's about the economy.
I find it terribly interesting thatsome of these companies like Meta
as a perfect example, that were.
(15:50):
So supportive of their work in DEI,they really were focused on this, that
they had an about face and managed todismantle things in a matter of days.
And it begs the question, how importantwas it that you could undo it so quickly?
(16:12):
And I think that is a very sad statement.
I think what's going to happen is thatthese companies are going to wake up
and realize that this is a mistake.
And like Apple and Costco, they shouldhave stuck to their guns and said,
yeah, we're not doing anything illegal.
But we are doing things that are inthe best interest of our business.
(16:34):
And I do believe there will bea reckoning, not to mention the
pushback that we're seeing against.
Some companies, I think about Targetas an example, that apparently has lost
billions of dollars because of theirretreat from their commitment to DEI
and the that money is not going back.
People are making changes to theirhabits, like going to Costco.
(16:59):
And I think these organizationswill regret their decisions.
Annmarie Hylton (17:04):
Now I have another question to follow up on that.
I guess why, it's strange to mefrom a business perspective that
that they would have chosen to rollback their DI initiatives because I
would just think they were alreadythinking about the bottom line and
looking at especially like Target,looking at who their customers were.
(17:26):
So it was very strange to me,that they would even take up such
a direction and I guess is like.
What were, you of course don't know what'sgoing on in all these corporations, but
what do you think, was the driving factor?
Were they not looking at okay, this isgonna maybe hurt us financially because
business is about making some money?
(17:47):
And especially ones that had avery large, diverse audience.
Do you think it was just theyjust wanted to I'm not I don't
even know how to frame it.
Like why do you thinkthat this even happened?
Internally,
Michael Bach (18:00):
I think the ones that backed away the quickest meta never really cared.
They never really believedwhat they were saying.
Where Mark Zuckerberg a couple yearsago was talking about how important.
DEI was to the success of Facebook andInstagram and their, whatever else they
(18:22):
own to making claims that we meet needto return to a more masculine culture.
At Meta just tells methat he never bought in.
He was saying what he thought he needed tosay at the time, and now he's saying what
he thinks he needs to say at this time.
Do I believe a word that'scoming out of his mouth?
(18:44):
I don't know.
I don't know what to believe.
I don't think he's someonethat you can actually trust.
I think Organiz, other organizationsthat have backed away have done
it for a variety of reasonsand in a variety of ways.
And I'm thinking about Deloitteas an example who, I forget the
exact wording of their statement.
Your listeners can look it up online,but they basically said, we don't
(19:07):
wanna piss off the government becauseit's worth billions of dollars or
millions of dollars, certainly to us.
And so we're gonna, we're gonna,backtrack a little bit, but not much.
They're staying off the radar ofthe federal government because for
them, they do millions, millionsof dollars w worth of business with
(19:30):
the federal government every year.
And if they lose that work, we'retalking about thousands of people
that will lose their jobs overnight.
And I respect that for Deloitte.
I think that is a, not just asmart business decision, but it's
an ethical business decision.
I think there are organizations thatare just jumping on the bandwagon.
There are organizationsthat are doing it because.
(19:52):
They're afraid and they don'twanna be in the spotlights.
And then there are the organizations,and I keep referencing Apple
and Costco because they'vebeen the most prominent ones.
They did the arithmetic.
This is not they're not stickingto this because of their
moral compass or their ethics.
(20:13):
They did the arithmetic and said,our commitment to DEI means that
we bring in this much money.
It means that we bringin this many employees.
It means that our engagement is at thislevel, and if we backtrack on that,
we are going to be the losers and ourinvestors are going to be the losers.
So I, I think it, the organizations thathave backtracked haven't done the math
(20:40):
and don't really have it built into theirDNA to say, we do this work because it's
the right thing to do for our business.
Versus that, moral imperativeof it's the right thing to do.
I think those two things are avery different approach and one
is more effective than others.
Annmarie Hylton (20:58):
Yes.
So you bring up the point of, I guessethics and business and I believe right
now just across all types of thingsthat this is a internal examination
for each individual and globally tosay, where do we stand on our values?
That's just my opinion that thisis, where we are moving globally
(21:20):
on every single type of issue.
And I guess when I wannaask a silly questions.
Do you feel like, no, please,ethics is is maybe always been or
is debt and business and it's abig question I guess I should say.
Where do you feel like morals andbusiness, should they be tying together?
(21:41):
Or should they stay separate?
I guess
Michael Bach (21:44):
That's a tough question.
It's, and it doesn't have an easy answer.
The problem with making decisions basedon morals or ethics is that we don't
have a shared set of morals and ethics.
(22:05):
We don't live in a utopia wherewe all believe the same thing.
This country, the UnitedStates, is incredibly divided.
And I, I think making businessdecisions based on morals means
we're not necessarily makingthe best business decisions.
(22:26):
Chick-fil-A as an example, wellknown to be a less than inclusive
organization, shall we say particularlyas it relates to the LGBT community.
But also, they tried to forcetheir insurer to not cover
reproductive solutions for women.
(22:47):
The birth control pill was not gonnabe covered under their insurance
benefits because of their morals.
Is making decisions based on morals.
They're a very Christian dominatedcompany fundamentalist Christian, and
they make decisions based on their morals.
That's not necessarily inthe best decision, the best
interest of the company.
They close their stores on Sundays.
(23:09):
People eat chicken on Sundays.
I have never eaten at a Chick-fil-A.
I will never eat at a Chick-fil-A untilthey change their business practices.
I don't care if they like me, Idon't need to see them at Pride,
but they need to stop trying toerase people out of existence.
(23:31):
So I think if companieswere focused on making.
Business decisions that wereoutside of morals and ethics,
outside of their opinion andbeliefs that they will do better.
That said, they have to have moreobjectives than simply make money.
(23:56):
And I'll give you an example.
It, there's the attitude of make money atany cost, and then there's the attitude
of making money by making smart decisions.
So companies that are focusedon employee engagement as an
example, have lower turnover rates.
They have higher productivity,higher innovation, creativity,
(24:20):
lower safety incidents that's makingmoney because it's saving money.
Turnover costs money.
Recruiting new peoplecosts a lot of money.
So as long as these organizationsare focused on making money, but
doing so in an, in a way that isn'tcompletely void of the human aspect
(24:48):
then I think it's a good thing.
It's, it is a slippery slope when westart to talk about morals and values.
Annmarie Hylton (24:56):
Yes.
And one of the things that youbrought up is, I think in this, and
I believe it's a probably of a mix oftechnology and and just, we're dealing
now with multi, multi-generations.
It's the, this loss of, I think atouch of this, human touch, like
understanding what kind of humanity means.
(25:19):
And I guess before I even go to thenext set of questions, I think one
of the other things that is a still aquestion out there or something that
people actually misunderstand and maybe Ishould have asked this at the beginning,
but to explain what does diversity,equity and inclusion actually mean?
(25:39):
Because I think when I was preparingfor this a lot of people didn't actually
know why DEI was important for them.
They just thought, oh, this isjust, a race thing and so then
we don't have to deal with thesepeople anymore and we just go along.
Hum.
But I think a lot of people don'tunderstand that pun intended and non
(26:01):
pun intended, the diversity of DEI.
Michael Bach (26:05):
Sure.
Yeah, it's a great question.
So the word diversity means difference.
Diversity when we talk about it in,in the aspect of DEI, is about all
of the things that make us unique.
Yes, it is about our sex assigned atbirth, our gender, our race, ethnicity,
but it's also about things likeeconomic status where you grew up.
(26:29):
Did you grow up in an urbancenter or in a rural environment?
Where do you work?
Are you left-handed or right-handed?
There are so many aspects ofour identities that make us
different from one another.
We could talk about underrepresentation,we can talk about marginalization,
(26:50):
but ultimately diversity is about allof the things that make us unique.
Equity is about recognizing that wedon't all start from the same place.
When we hear statements about,oh, you just have to work hard
that's not the case because we donot all start from the same place.
(27:10):
We do not have the same opportunity.
The president, as an example,received from his father,
40 some odd million dollars.
That does not happen to theaverage person on the street.
Equity is about recognizing that we don'thave the same opportunities, and the goal
(27:31):
of equity is to level the playing field.
I. Inclusion is about creating spaceswhere we can bring all that diversity
together that will have a level playingfield where everyone can succeed.
Historically, when we talk about DEI,we've been talking about addressing wrongs
(27:58):
primarily wrongs that were experiencedby communities of color and women.
Think about women and the rightto vote that took them decades
to get women the right to vote.
When we talk about people of color,specifically black, African, and
(28:19):
Caribbean communities we havethe history of slavery that.
Some people have moved onfrom, but some people have not.
And there's generational trauma there.
So historically we've talkedabout very specific things.
But as we've evolved in thisconversation, it's to recognize that
(28:43):
we are all diverse in some way, shape,or form, and we just want to be in
workplaces where we're able to succeed.
Annmarie Hylton (28:54):
Yes, I couldn't agree more.
To me it's just it's like.
I had a, 'cause I think in pictures,and this may sound funny and a little
bit weird, but it's like the littlein movies, how they always had the
devil on one shoulder and the angel onone shoulder, and it's like the angel
giving you like, oh, you should, youshould share even in, if in on the
(29:16):
devil's side, it's no, it's all for you.
Yeah.
And so that's my, the image that cameto my head when I was thinking about,
DEI, it's about, having that angel onyour shoulder telling you that look
at the other aspects and don't alwaysjust be thinking about you because,
and I think it's critically important.
(29:36):
Right now.
We have what, over 8 billionpeople on the planet.
And we are facing not only,issues of DEI, but we're facing
really critical things right now.
We have to think aboutwhether we believe it or not.
Having enough food if we continue inthe way that we farm thinking about
the pollution that we're causingthinking about, the health of people.
(29:59):
There's these are the, things that if wecould get past just looking at what I call
a little bit of the superficial thingsand deal with the bigger overarching
problems of wanting to still exist withinthe universe that we really need to.
I guess get it together.
(30:20):
And on that same thought patterna little bit, I was just we
did a I guess a 360 or we.
We just went on a wholedifferent trajectory.
We went through thisthing called Covid, right?
If everybody, it seems likepeople forgot about that.
And it wasn't just that, and itwas not that long ago, right?
(30:41):
We went through this so the Covidpandemic, during that time, that's
when the thing of the black livesmovement prompted this renewal
focus on racial injustice.
And companies and institutionswere reevaluating their DEI
strategies and, they had the wholeprotest for George Floyd's death.
And so it seemed then at thattime, because we were all glued
(31:05):
to the TV or locked into ourhomes, so we had nowhere to run.
So we had to face this factthat, this is happening.
'cause there was nothingelse to really focus on.
So it looked like we were going inthe right direction, that we were
like, oh, these things are happening.
And now it seemed like all the companieslike jumped onto this band bandwagon.
(31:28):
And and it looked like, okay, now, we'regetting serious and, focusing and, really
analyzing everything that that we do.
And then now it's oh, that was a phase.
Do you feel that was like was a phaseor how did you feel, during that time?
Michael Bach (31:46):
You know what, yeah.
I had certainly never consideranti-black racism a phase.
But I think it was, to my pointearlier, too much change, too fast.
And there was this desire tofix, quote unquote, the issues.
Overnight.
And I had clients calling, this waswhen I was leading CCI consulting
(32:10):
where they were calling and wantinganti-black racism addressed in, in
like minutes, not even hours or days.
And I had many conversations tosay, it took us hundreds of years
to get to this boiling point.
(32:32):
It's not gonna be fixed overnight,I don't think it's a phase.
And we have seen a backing off ofconversations around anti-black racism.
But I think it, it wastoo much change, too fast.
And unfortunately when we dothat, the change doesn't stick.
(32:55):
And that's ultimately the goal of thiswork is to make sure that whatever
change we introduce, we pursue, thatit stays, that it becomes part of our
our lexicon, our society, and that, wewould never consider going backward.
(33:17):
And I think we are seeingthe result of that now.
Annmarie Hylton (33:23):
Yes.
And you in 2020, which was theperfect time you had your book birds
of All Feathers doing diversityand inclusion come out and it
was a bestseller and won awards.
And so I guess let's talk about somesolutions or how diversity can be done,
and maybe we should look at where weare right now because with this changing
(33:46):
environment this is just my assumptionthat a different approach means maybe
needs to be taken because of thevolatility of the space that we find
ourselves in so many different ways.
So I guess starting here in 2025,how would you how would you, approach
(34:10):
things if you were going to advise?
A company that still wants to moveforward with its DEI programs?
Michael Bach (34:18):
Yeah.
And that's a great question.
That's what I'm, I'dspend my days doing now.
I would say that I havea few piece of advice.
First of all, slow and steady winsthe race as we remember the parable
of the tor tortoise and the hare.
Change takes time and you cannotmeasure this change in weeks and months.
(34:39):
It is measurement in years, andit's the slow and steady approach
that will have the lasting effect.
It's the old saying, howdo you eat an elephant?
One bite at a time.
And you have to just take astep and then take another step.
(34:59):
So slow and steady wins the race.
First piece of advice.
Second is that this is about real change.
It's not about the performative aspectsof the work, putting on black History
Month celebration or, it's into,it's women's History Month this year.
Putting on, some event that celebrateswomen in March is just performative bs.
(35:26):
It's not, it's it doesnot have any impact.
What you need to do is be lookingat as one example, pay equity.
Are you paying people thesame to do the same job?
And that's looking at it not just from aa sex lens, it's also looking at it from
a race and ethnicity lens an ability lensmaking sure that people are not being paid
(35:54):
less or more to do a job than their peers.
There's always, variables in thatconversation, but my point being that
we're talking about systemic change,not the performative lip service.
If you think, oh, I have to focus ondiversifying our leadership, which yes,
(36:18):
every employer should, then that's amassive amount of work that's gonna take
a long time and it's gonna take systems.
And it is not somethingthat happens quickly.
So you have to put those systemsin place, those processes to make
sure that you are ultimately makinghiring decisions based on merit.
(36:43):
But it, there's a whole lot of workthat has to happen and employers
have to be willing to do that work.
Annmarie Hylton (36:51):
Now, one of the things that started happening, especially
after 2020 and when everybody wasscreaming, DIDI is that they started to
hire a lot of people for DEI positions.
Yep.
And what tends to happen, and thisis just something I've observed, and
I'm sure you see this in the fieldthey usually grab the minority.
(37:15):
Usually it's always like ablack woman or that's the
stereotype that I see out there.
They're like, okay, this person,fits the bill and, and, and I have
a, feelings I guess a little bitabout that, that usually, 'cause the.
The black woman was gonna saywhat she thinks, and, also as a
woman and all these things, andand on, on the bottom of the list.
(37:35):
And obviously you have a differentperspective because you are a
male and a white male at that.
Yeah.
I, I know you have a diverse backgroundbeing part of the L-G-B-T-Q community.
But I guess in taking on such a roleand usually I guess being and I'm
making the conclusion, and you cantell me if I'm wrong, being surrounded
(37:58):
by people are usually are in a whatthey would call the minority group.
I guess how is your perspectivewhen it comes to these
things different or the same?
Michael Bach (38:11):
Yeah.
So I think giving a person a jobbased on their gender, their sex,
their color of their skin is alwaysa mistake, unless that aspect of a
person's identity is key to the job.
And I make that statement about DEIpractitioners just as much as I make
(38:34):
the statement about lawyers and doctorsand accountants and everyone we should
not be hiring someone based on an aspectof their identity that has nothing to
do with their ability to do the job.
In 2020, the number of phonecalls I got from clients.
(38:54):
Who were either directly asking for onlyblack candidates or subtly asking I,
there, there was no count in that one.
It, the question was not, doyou have, does this person
have the ability to do the job?
This ques the questionwas, is the person black?
And that is, there are lots of reallygreat people of color working in DEI,
(39:22):
but there are also lots of reallygreat white people working in DEI.
So I think that is a veryshortsighted approach.
It is never a good decision to toapproach things in that manner.
I'm a white man and I'll beblunt and say that I use that
(39:44):
to the advantage of others.
In that I can go into a roomand say things and be heard in a
different way than some people can.
I have privilege that comes withmy identities and I absolutely use
(40:05):
that to the advantage of others.
The question is not canwhite men do DEI work?
That's too simplistic.
It's, it, is it they empathize.
Can they appreciate do they have highlevels of cultural competence that
they understand the experiences ofdifferent communities, the communities
(40:27):
that they are there to fight for?
So I think it is the.
It really comes down to the individual.
Just because you're a, you're blackyou're a lesbian, you're, use a wheelchair
doesn't mean that you necessarily havethe empathy and cultural competence and
(40:48):
skills and experience to work in DEI.
It's not automatic.
I know people who come fromdifferent marginalized communities
themselves who are racist,sexist, homophobic, transphobic.
And so just because you're part ofa community doesn't necessarily mean
you're an advocate for that community.
(41:09):
Y you, I think my advice to clients aroundthis is just make the decision based on
what's good for your business, what arethe skills required to do the job, and
then hire a person who has those skills.
If you can hire a person from amarginalized community, obviously
(41:30):
that is an added benefit, but thatshould not be the primary decision.
Annmarie Hylton (41:35):
Yes.
I, yes, I agree.
'cause I was, I have to be honest,and then this, and I'm also looking
at from an out outsider perspectiveof not being, an DEI expert, but also
taking it into, I think maybe what alot of people have as a perspective.
And maybe one of the reasonsthat, it got rolled back is that
people were just feeling likeit was like a checkbox position.
(41:59):
And then, oh, we got our diverseperson, and they're like, oh, so you
were born out of the country, or dah.
Okay.
We checked our box yay.
As the company and run along.
And I have the question.
How from what you've seen in working withand various clients, how committed do you
feel that most organizations are to DEI?
(42:20):
Would you feel that it's just somethingthat they're like, oh, good, you're,
you're putting the stamp on for usthat we were we're good in that area,
and that, you've made the great ad.
Do you feel that a lot oforganizations are committed to this
in the way that they should be?
Michael Bach (42:37):
Oh, no.
The short answer is no.
I think some organizations havestronger commitments than others.
I think I often can I can often tell acommitment based on who I'm talking to.
If I'm talking to, a manager in a really,large organization that's likely that
(43:04):
it's not that strong a commitment.
If I'm talking to someone in theC-suite, it's a much stronger commitment.
Yeah, I don't think there isenough commitment because I don't
think people truly have donethe arithmetic to understand the
impact to their organizations.
I just don't see it enough
Annmarie Hylton (43:24):
now taking it down to I guess the employee or the day-to-day
interactions that people have.
I guess what would you say that you foundfor successful companies have made people
feel the most valued, respected, and ableand able to be their authentic selves?
I think,
Michael Bach (43:44):
Generally speaking it's programs and initiatives that
recognize and make people feel valuedfor their unique contributions.
A person doesn't want to be recognized andvalued for their identity, meaning I never
(44:10):
wanted to be the gay diversity officer.
I wanted to be the diversityofficer who happened to be gay.
And I think it's about making sure thatyou're treating everyone with respect.
(44:30):
You are.
Giving people opportunities to succeed.
You're investing in your people.
You're addressing things like racism,sexism, and homophobia in the workplace so
that when they occur and they will occur,that you can snuff them out really quickly
instead of allowing them to fester.
(44:53):
So I think, all of those things,there's, and there's many others.
It's really just aboutmaking people feel valued.
Annmarie Hylton (45:05):
Now, here's a I guess a, I'll call it a basic question, but
how do people, I guess get out of theuncomfortableness of working because I've,
I've seen this, I've experienced this ofworking in a diverse team because we live
in a world that is so siloed and people,they stick with their own people groups a
(45:29):
lot of times and, and there is and you'rea rare bird as I found out personally,
if you have, multiple types of friendsdifferent races, genders and and that,
that puts you out in a different type ofcategory than most people are used to.
So how do we get people tobe, I think, comfortable?
(45:51):
That's what I've always found and seenis that I always feel like there's
this uncomfortableness with people.
When they have to enter andtalk to people that are not
necessarily just, in their same box.
So how do we get people to getoutta that uncomfortable weird
feeling that hangs in the air?
Yeah
Michael Bach (46:11):
Something is only strange to us until we've experienced it.
And that's ultimately how you get you,you become a more inclusive person
is by exposing yourself to differenceso that it stops being strange.
(46:32):
It is, the reality isthat it is human nature.
It is part of our biology that we areattracted to people who have similar
experiences and identities to us.
'cause our body just saves energybecause we don't have to think as much.
And the only way that you get used tothose differences and they stop being
(46:55):
strange, is by exposing yourself to them.
Your brain will take more energyand you will be more tired
because of that difference.
But over time it just startsto become second nature.
So if you don't know anybody who is froma different race or ethnicity, from a
(47:18):
different sexuality, et cetera, find them,be friends with them, get to know them,
start to understand their experiences.
And then slowly but surely over timeit just starts to become natural.
Annmarie Hylton (47:36):
Now I have some HR questions and then I'll give
you a last hopefully fun question.
From an HR perspective how wouldyou say that they can, we can ensure
job descriptions and recruitmentprocesses are inclusive of everyone.
Michael Bach (47:53):
The best way is to really test them and there are applications
online that will look at the languageyou're using and determine if some
of that language is more more biasedin favor of one group or another.
And I. I there's a, an app out therecalled Vis di, I think V-I-Z-E-D-I.
(48:22):
And it, looks at the language in in yourdocument and says, Hey, this term, is
not necessarily inclusive and here's why.
You don't know what you don't know, right?
And a job description you may look atand go, oh, that's perfect, but then
someone else might read it and go, ohyeah, no, that's not perfect at all.
(48:43):
So you really do have to test themusing, various software platforms
that are now available to us.
Annmarie Hylton (48:52):
And my final question is going to be one word
that you would say the why for DEI.
Michael Bach (49:01):
One word that I would say is the why for DEI.
Money.
It's simplistic and it's a bit vulgar, butI think if we had to, if I can only pick
one word, it's about making more money.
It's about doing more with lessit's about a better economy.
(49:26):
So money,
Annmarie Hylton (49:29):
I like it and I like it because, when I, when you say money, and
I think, a lot of people obviously thinkof paper change and things like that,
but money is so much more than that.
It's really about, making plans,movements, and initiating change
and so I love your answer.
That's perfect.
(49:49):
Thank you.
And thank you Michael foryour time and insight.
To learn more about MichaelBach, go to michael bock.com.
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem,
or wanna change minds contactproject, good work@projectgood.org.
To start your project of Change today,subscribe to our mailing list at project
good.org/subscribe to get our episodesand blog articles sent to you each month.
(50:15):
To our listeners, thanks fortuning in to Project Good.
We're focused on what matters.
Hello and welcome to the Project Good podcast.
I'm your host, Annmarie Hylton.
Project Good is a social impact podcast,interviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is to inspirepeople and organizations to develop a
mindset that can move others to positiveaction regarding the conflict, social
(00:23):
issues facing people, and the planet.
For me, we're focused on diversity,equity, and inclusion, and what it means.
In the early two thousands, DEIinitiatives began to be recognized as a
key element of organizational strategy.
Research showed that diverse teamswere more effective at problem solving
and innovation, and that inclusivework environments led to higher
(00:47):
employee satisfaction and productivity.
Many large corporations and organizationsbegan establishing formal DEI programs,
appointing chief diversity officersand measuring their progress through
diversity metrics, diversity training,mentorship programs, and employee
resource groups became commonplace.
As globalization increased, DEIexpanded beyond the US to include a
(01:10):
more global perspective on diversityand inclusion and addressing issues
related to race, culture, and religion.
Today I have the pleasure ofinterviewing DEI, expert Michael Bach,
who is nationally and internationallyrecognized thought leader and subject
matter expert in the fields ofinclusion, equity, and accessibility.
He is the founder of the Canadian Centerfor Diversity and Inclusion, CCDI,
(01:36):
consulting and Pride at Work Canada.
Michael has worked professionally in theareas of inclusion, diversity, and equity
and accessibility for nearly 20 years.
Most recently as the founding CEOof CCDI and CCDI consulting, prior
to taking on this role, he wasthe national leader for diversity,
(01:57):
equity and inclusion for KPMG Canada.
Additionally, Michael spent two and ahalf years as Deputy Chief Diversity
Officer for KPMG International.
Over the course of his career, Michaelhas received repeated recognition for
his work, including being named Womenof Influences, Canadian Diversity
Champion Catalyst, Canadian HonorsHuman Resources Diversity Leader.
(02:21):
Inspire Award as L-G-B-T-Q Person ofthe Year out on Bay Street leaders to be
proud of LGBT Advocate Workplace Award.
Toronto Region Immigrant EmploymentCouncils is Award and Canadian HR Reporter
Individual Achievement Award in 2023.
He was named as one of the 10 mostinfluential DEI leaders revamping
(02:45):
the future of by CIO Views Magazine.
Let's get into the interview.
Michael Bach (03:00):
Hello.
Annmarie Hylton (03:01):
Hello.
How are you?
Michael Bach (03:03):
I'm great.
How are you?
Annmarie Hylton (03:05):
Uh, good.
Thank you so much for your takingtime today to talk about this.
Pressing topic of DEI.
That's the hot topic out here.
I have to say, I'm already exhaustedjust thinking about DEI all the time.
People are just gettingit's, I don't know.
I guess I, just the, to always havingto be thinking about why we, I guess the
(03:28):
saying is they say why everybody can'tjust get along and appreciate everyone.
It gets it, it alwaysgets so tiring to me.
But it's so important because we live ona diverse planet, and so I wish people
could just appreciate it and move forward.
Michael Bach (03:44):
Absolutely.
That's the goal.
It's just a little moredifficult to get there.
Annmarie Hylton (03:49):
Yes.
And in today's discussion I wanted totalk about where we are going because, as
a lot of people have seen, we are, we'rekind of going backwards with it when,
with policies, especially here in the US.
Before we dive into all the gruesomedetails, though, I like to always
get a personal take on the personthat I'm interviewing, and I wanted
(04:12):
to know a little bit about whatdrove you to become a DEI champion.
Michael Bach (04:19):
Yeah, I, you know, I'd always done work in this area
in some way, shape or form, startinggoing way back to high school.
Where I had was doing work in theLGBTQ plus space, but it wasn't a job.
That was sort of the work you did asa volunteer off the side of your desk.
(04:43):
Because it, I mean, it was a job.
It just wasn't a job that wasgonna pay what I wanted to make.
And so I did the work in various volunteercapacities for my entire adult life.
And then it was in 2005 whenthis opportunity presented itself
(05:04):
to actually work in this field.
And I jumped at it.
I was very excited by theopportunity and haven't looked back.
I'm passionate about I'm passionateabout people being treated fairly
and respectfully and making sure thatthey have opportunities to succeed.
(05:26):
And that's just been amantra for my whole life.
Annmarie Hylton (05:30):
That's wonderful that you started.
I'll say you started before youstarted officially to Yes, I
guess have that on your heart.
And that it was I would say like itmust have been internally a calling.
Obviously when you first in yourvery first thing, you didn't realize
maybe how it would, shape yourfuture or who you would become.
(05:50):
To a lot of people, they never reallydive into that, that deeper a spiritual
feeling inside of them that this is theway that they should, they should go.
So that's amazing that you decidedto step forward and also in an issue
that I would say is often very sticky.
I.
Michael Bach (06:10):
It is very sticky.
It can be very sticky, and I hesitateto use the word calling, but at the same
time it does feel like a bit of a callingthat it's just, it was sort of that
perfect moment where my personal passionand my profession came together as one.
And I feel really fortunatethat actually occurred.
Annmarie Hylton (06:34):
Yes.
And obviously, I'm sure, you alwaysthink, of course, it's nice to
continuously be recognized, but the changethat you have created, I think is always
probably the biggest re biggest reward.
When somebody follows, I guessyou would say their heart.
And I'm sure you have seeing things thatyou just couldn't have ever imagined
(06:54):
that you would be part of that change.
Michael Bach (06:57):
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Annmarie Hylton (07:00):
And so we now find ourselves in a, I guess I would say a
questionable time because here we are inthe year 2025 and we are in what, when
we were looking back, maybe 20 years ago,we had a whole different feeling of what
this would, what this world would be.
We, in all futuristic movies, usuallyit's like high tech and, and we were
(07:23):
going to be sometimes either oneway either utopia or destruction.
But we find ourselves in,wanting to go back to.
Maybe the fifties or something.
It's strange and what I'm talking aboutmostly is from the US perspective, but
the US perspective of course, is alwaysimportant because the US tends to act
(07:47):
as the big brother throughout the world.
And to set an example and alsothe US deals with this issue of
diversity as its ongoing struggle.
Due to historical aspects of how thethe country was put together, everything
(08:09):
from slavery and a history of notjust only slavery, but a history of
having injustices for different groups.
And so I guess when you see these thingshappening, are you shocked or not shocked?
Michael Bach (08:24):
I'm not shocked.
I'm disappointed.
And you'd think at this point, it's2025, you'd think at this point we
were past a lot of this, that we weremaking real progress, but we are still
(08:45):
talking about fundamental issues and.
I see it as a group of people who havefound themselves in positions of power,
who have some very regressive beliefs thatare not in line with the average American.
(09:09):
And I'm talking about things likewomen's reproductive rights and people's
ability to exist, but they have suchdogmatic belief in things that they are
trying to force that onto the Americanpeople which is truly disappointing.
(09:30):
And, but not surprising.
This has been going on forgenerations where we take two
steps forward and one step back.
Annmarie Hylton (09:39):
And I guess usually the, as they say the underlying
or the seed is usually fear.
But I guess it's, I guess for me it'sbeen a shocker that it's not just
maybe an older generation, but evenpeople who are fairly, young or even
(10:01):
some of the youth that they have thisit's a surprising mindset to me, what
do you think has contributed to thiswant to, really pound this, these
ideologies in or to roll back so much?
Michael Bach (10:17):
Oh, I think it's a lot of fear and ignorance.
It's a lot of misinformation,but we are seeing just completely
rolling through our our society.
I think about the president's commentduring his recent speech about
(10:37):
hundreds of thousands of transgendermice, which was not accurate.
Um, it's, but you know, these things haveconsequence where when the president says
there are, hundreds of thousands of, we'vespent hundreds of thousands of dollars
(10:59):
on transgender mice when it's actuallytransgenic, that has a serious impact.
We can laugh about that, but.
People are listening andstart to believe those things.
And I believe that it's coming fromtoo much change, too fast, where people
(11:23):
start to long for the old days, theydon't have enough time to get used
to the the change that's happening.
And they are kind of rebelling.
Their brains are rebellingagainst the change.
And so they long for the olden days,the ways, before trans people existed.
(11:48):
Trans people have existedsince, about 1200 bcs.
The last known reference or theearliest reference to trans people and.
It then puts them in that positionof we have to change things.
We have to go back.
So it's the ignorance andthe lack of understanding
that's driving this behavior.
Annmarie Hylton (12:08):
Yes.
And, and fueled by, Iwould say technology.
There's this underlying occurrence,and this is just something that
I feel is that, we're on the,we're on the cusp of something.
But, I think there's a, an uncertainty.
And what I mean by that, it'sa different type of cusp.
I think everybody, if they're awakethat they feel that there is a
(12:30):
massive change coming that we won'tbe able to control as humanity.
But people don't know.
We can't exactly, put it into words yetor feel it, but I think there's this
feeling of yeah, it's like a, you'rewaiting for a, you see the big wave and
the distance you don't know when it'sgoing to hit you, but you feel it coming.
(12:53):
And I feel like that is that's asentiment that is spread across not
only the US but there's on the worldthat we feel that there's something
coming, but we just don't know what itis and it's gonna be very life changing.
And what you've mentioned, and whyI'm saying that is that you, you
mentioned that there's this feelthat a need for, what can we control
(13:14):
before this, big wave, whatever it is.
A attacks us or gets us or, orchanges everything that we know.
And unfortunately differencesin not appreciating those
differences have been historically.
When people say they, they go to their,the lower nature of let's, let's look
(13:36):
at things that are I don't know ifI wanna say uncontrollable, but Yes.
In a way.
Mm-hmm.
That let's pick apart what's different andto make ourselves feel, back in control.
And the rhetoric that's out herein the US is not only troubling for
many reasons, but it's also havingan impact on the economic and the
(14:02):
workplace and the corporations.
And so how do you feel that, therollback of a lot of these DEI
initiatives in corporations is justgoing to affect I guess economics.
I know this is a little bit out of yourrealm but I'm sure you have an opinion.
Michael Bach (14:21):
No, it's absolutely in my realm.
If the way I approach this work anddiversity, equity and inclusion is
very much about the financial impact,it's about the impact on our economies.
It's about the impact on ourorganizations, and it is very shortsighted
(14:42):
where people don't understand the impactof a lack of focus on DEI on the economy.
I'll give you an example.
Women on average make76 cents on the dollar.
Women work for free for three monthsout of the year when compared to
men doing a same or similar job?
(15:04):
That means they have less money andwomen control 80% of the household
spend in heterosexual couples.
If they had more money, theywould have more spending power.
If they had more spending power, they'dbe paying more taxes, which would
lead to better roads and schools.
(15:27):
It would mean that theeconomy was more stimulated.
And yet people don't seem to understandthat pay disparity is an economic issue.
It's not about fairness,it's about the economy.
I find it terribly interesting thatsome of these companies like Meta
as a perfect example, that were.
(15:50):
So supportive of their work in DEI,they really were focused on this, that
they had an about face and managed todismantle things in a matter of days.
And it begs the question, how importantwas it that you could undo it so quickly?
(16:12):
And I think that is a very sad statement.
I think what's going to happen is thatthese companies are going to wake up
and realize that this is a mistake.
And like Apple and Costco, they shouldhave stuck to their guns and said,
yeah, we're not doing anything illegal.
But we are doing things that are inthe best interest of our business.
(16:34):
And I do believe there will bea reckoning, not to mention the
pushback that we're seeing against.
Some companies, I think about Targetas an example, that apparently has lost
billions of dollars because of theirretreat from their commitment to DEI
and the that money is not going back.
People are making changes to theirhabits, like going to Costco.
(16:59):
And I think these organizationswill regret their decisions.
Annmarie Hylton (17:04):
Now I have another question to follow up on that.
I guess why, it's strange to mefrom a business perspective that
that they would have chosen to rollback their DI initiatives because I
would just think they were alreadythinking about the bottom line and
looking at especially like Target,looking at who their customers were.
(17:26):
So it was very strange to me,that they would even take up such
a direction and I guess is like.
What were, you of course don't know what'sgoing on in all these corporations, but
what do you think, was the driving factor?
Were they not looking at okay, this isgonna maybe hurt us financially because
business is about making some money?
(17:47):
And especially ones that had avery large, diverse audience.
Do you think it was just theyjust wanted to I'm not I don't
even know how to frame it.
Like why do you thinkthat this even happened?
Internally,
Michael Bach (18:00):
I think the ones that backed away the quickest meta never really cared.
They never really believedwhat they were saying.
Where Mark Zuckerberg a couple yearsago was talking about how important.
DEI was to the success of Facebook andInstagram and their, whatever else they
(18:22):
own to making claims that we meet needto return to a more masculine culture.
At Meta just tells methat he never bought in.
He was saying what he thought he needed tosay at the time, and now he's saying what
he thinks he needs to say at this time.
Do I believe a word that'scoming out of his mouth?
(18:44):
I don't know.
I don't know what to believe.
I don't think he's someonethat you can actually trust.
I think Organiz, other organizationsthat have backed away have done
it for a variety of reasonsand in a variety of ways.
And I'm thinking about Deloitteas an example who, I forget the
exact wording of their statement.
Your listeners can look it up online,but they basically said, we don't
(19:07):
wanna piss off the government becauseit's worth billions of dollars or
millions of dollars, certainly to us.
And so we're gonna, we're gonna,backtrack a little bit, but not much.
They're staying off the radar ofthe federal government because for
them, they do millions, millionsof dollars w worth of business with
(19:30):
the federal government every year.
And if they lose that work, we'retalking about thousands of people
that will lose their jobs overnight.
And I respect that for Deloitte.
I think that is a, not just asmart business decision, but it's
an ethical business decision.
I think there are organizations thatare just jumping on the bandwagon.
There are organizationsthat are doing it because.
(19:52):
They're afraid and they don'twanna be in the spotlights.
And then there are the organizations,and I keep referencing Apple
and Costco because they'vebeen the most prominent ones.
They did the arithmetic.
This is not they're not stickingto this because of their
moral compass or their ethics.
(20:13):
They did the arithmetic and said,our commitment to DEI means that
we bring in this much money.
It means that we bringin this many employees.
It means that our engagement is at thislevel, and if we backtrack on that,
we are going to be the losers and ourinvestors are going to be the losers.
So I, I think it, the organizations thathave backtracked haven't done the math
(20:40):
and don't really have it built into theirDNA to say, we do this work because it's
the right thing to do for our business.
Versus that, moral imperativeof it's the right thing to do.
I think those two things are avery different approach and one
is more effective than others.
Annmarie Hylton (20:58):
Yes.
So you bring up the point of, I guessethics and business and I believe right
now just across all types of thingsthat this is a internal examination
for each individual and globally tosay, where do we stand on our values?
That's just my opinion that thisis, where we are moving globally
(21:20):
on every single type of issue.
And I guess when I wannaask a silly questions.
Do you feel like, no, please,ethics is is maybe always been or
is debt and business and it's abig question I guess I should say.
Where do you feel like morals andbusiness, should they be tying together?
(21:41):
Or should they stay separate?
I guess
Michael Bach (21:44):
That's a tough question.
It's, and it doesn't have an easy answer.
The problem with making decisions basedon morals or ethics is that we don't
have a shared set of morals and ethics.
(22:05):
We don't live in a utopia wherewe all believe the same thing.
This country, the UnitedStates, is incredibly divided.
And I, I think making businessdecisions based on morals means
we're not necessarily makingthe best business decisions.
(22:26):
Chick-fil-A as an example, wellknown to be a less than inclusive
organization, shall we say particularlyas it relates to the LGBT community.
But also, they tried to forcetheir insurer to not cover
reproductive solutions for women.
(22:47):
The birth control pill was not gonnabe covered under their insurance
benefits because of their morals.
Is making decisions based on morals.
They're a very Christian dominatedcompany fundamentalist Christian, and
they make decisions based on their morals.
That's not necessarily inthe best decision, the best
interest of the company.
They close their stores on Sundays.
(23:09):
People eat chicken on Sundays.
I have never eaten at a Chick-fil-A.
I will never eat at a Chick-fil-A untilthey change their business practices.
I don't care if they like me, Idon't need to see them at Pride,
but they need to stop trying toerase people out of existence.
(23:31):
So I think if companieswere focused on making.
Business decisions that wereoutside of morals and ethics,
outside of their opinion andbeliefs that they will do better.
That said, they have to have moreobjectives than simply make money.
(23:56):
And I'll give you an example.
It, there's the attitude of make money atany cost, and then there's the attitude
of making money by making smart decisions.
So companies that are focusedon employee engagement as an
example, have lower turnover rates.
They have higher productivity,higher innovation, creativity,
(24:20):
lower safety incidents that's makingmoney because it's saving money.
Turnover costs money.
Recruiting new peoplecosts a lot of money.
So as long as these organizationsare focused on making money, but
doing so in an, in a way that isn'tcompletely void of the human aspect
(24:48):
then I think it's a good thing.
It's, it is a slippery slope when westart to talk about morals and values.
Annmarie Hylton (24:56):
Yes.
And one of the things that youbrought up is, I think in this, and
I believe it's a probably of a mix oftechnology and and just, we're dealing
now with multi, multi-generations.
It's the, this loss of, I think atouch of this, human touch, like
understanding what kind of humanity means.
(25:19):
And I guess before I even go to thenext set of questions, I think one
of the other things that is a still aquestion out there or something that
people actually misunderstand and maybe Ishould have asked this at the beginning,
but to explain what does diversity,equity and inclusion actually mean?
(25:39):
Because I think when I was preparingfor this a lot of people didn't actually
know why DEI was important for them.
They just thought, oh, this isjust, a race thing and so then
we don't have to deal with thesepeople anymore and we just go along.
Hum.
But I think a lot of people don'tunderstand that pun intended and non
(26:01):
pun intended, the diversity of DEI.
Michael Bach (26:05):
Sure.
Yeah, it's a great question.
So the word diversity means difference.
Diversity when we talk about it in,in the aspect of DEI, is about all
of the things that make us unique.
Yes, it is about our sex assigned atbirth, our gender, our race, ethnicity,
but it's also about things likeeconomic status where you grew up.
(26:29):
Did you grow up in an urbancenter or in a rural environment?
Where do you work?
Are you left-handed or right-handed?
There are so many aspects ofour identities that make us
different from one another.
We could talk about underrepresentation,we can talk about marginalization,
(26:50):
but ultimately diversity is about allof the things that make us unique.
Equity is about recognizing that wedon't all start from the same place.
When we hear statements about,oh, you just have to work hard
that's not the case because we donot all start from the same place.
(27:10):
We do not have the same opportunity.
The president, as an example,received from his father,
40 some odd million dollars.
That does not happen to theaverage person on the street.
Equity is about recognizing that we don'thave the same opportunities, and the goal
(27:31):
of equity is to level the playing field.
I. Inclusion is about creating spaceswhere we can bring all that diversity
together that will have a level playingfield where everyone can succeed.
Historically, when we talk about DEI,we've been talking about addressing wrongs
(27:58):
primarily wrongs that were experiencedby communities of color and women.
Think about women and the rightto vote that took them decades
to get women the right to vote.
When we talk about people of color,specifically black, African, and
(28:19):
Caribbean communities we havethe history of slavery that.
Some people have moved onfrom, but some people have not.
And there's generational trauma there.
So historically we've talkedabout very specific things.
But as we've evolved in thisconversation, it's to recognize that
(28:43):
we are all diverse in some way, shape,or form, and we just want to be in
workplaces where we're able to succeed.
Annmarie Hylton (28:54):
Yes, I couldn't agree more.
To me it's just it's like.
I had a, 'cause I think in pictures,and this may sound funny and a little
bit weird, but it's like the littlein movies, how they always had the
devil on one shoulder and the angel onone shoulder, and it's like the angel
giving you like, oh, you should, youshould share even in, if in on the
(29:16):
devil's side, it's no, it's all for you.
Yeah.
And so that's my, the image that cameto my head when I was thinking about,
DEI, it's about, having that angel onyour shoulder telling you that look
at the other aspects and don't alwaysjust be thinking about you because,
and I think it's critically important.
(29:36):
Right now.
We have what, over 8 billionpeople on the planet.
And we are facing not only,issues of DEI, but we're facing
really critical things right now.
We have to think aboutwhether we believe it or not.
Having enough food if we continue inthe way that we farm thinking about
the pollution that we're causingthinking about, the health of people.
(29:59):
There's these are the, things that if wecould get past just looking at what I call
a little bit of the superficial thingsand deal with the bigger overarching
problems of wanting to still exist withinthe universe that we really need to.
I guess get it together.
(30:20):
And on that same thought patterna little bit, I was just we
did a I guess a 360 or we.
We just went on a wholedifferent trajectory.
We went through thisthing called Covid, right?
If everybody, it seems likepeople forgot about that.
And it wasn't just that, and itwas not that long ago, right?
(30:41):
We went through this so the Covidpandemic, during that time, that's
when the thing of the black livesmovement prompted this renewal
focus on racial injustice.
And companies and institutionswere reevaluating their DEI
strategies and, they had the wholeprotest for George Floyd's death.
And so it seemed then at thattime, because we were all glued
(31:05):
to the TV or locked into ourhomes, so we had nowhere to run.
So we had to face this factthat, this is happening.
'cause there was nothingelse to really focus on.
So it looked like we were going inthe right direction, that we were
like, oh, these things are happening.
And now it seemed like all the companieslike jumped onto this band bandwagon.
(31:28):
And and it looked like, okay, now, we'regetting serious and, focusing and, really
analyzing everything that that we do.
And then now it's oh, that was a phase.
Do you feel that was like was a phaseor how did you feel, during that time?
Michael Bach (31:46):
You know what, yeah.
I had certainly never consideranti-black racism a phase.
But I think it was, to my pointearlier, too much change, too fast.
And there was this desire tofix, quote unquote, the issues.
Overnight.
And I had clients calling, this waswhen I was leading CCI consulting
(32:10):
where they were calling and wantinganti-black racism addressed in, in
like minutes, not even hours or days.
And I had many conversations tosay, it took us hundreds of years
to get to this boiling point.
(32:32):
It's not gonna be fixed overnight,I don't think it's a phase.
And we have seen a backing off ofconversations around anti-black racism.
But I think it, it wastoo much change, too fast.
And unfortunately when we dothat, the change doesn't stick.
(32:55):
And that's ultimately the goal of thiswork is to make sure that whatever
change we introduce, we pursue, thatit stays, that it becomes part of our
our lexicon, our society, and that, wewould never consider going backward.
(33:17):
And I think we are seeingthe result of that now.
Annmarie Hylton (33:23):
Yes.
And you in 2020, which was theperfect time you had your book birds
of All Feathers doing diversityand inclusion come out and it
was a bestseller and won awards.
And so I guess let's talk about somesolutions or how diversity can be done,
and maybe we should look at where weare right now because with this changing
(33:46):
environment this is just my assumptionthat a different approach means maybe
needs to be taken because of thevolatility of the space that we find
ourselves in so many different ways.
So I guess starting here in 2025,how would you how would you, approach
(34:10):
things if you were going to advise?
A company that still wants to moveforward with its DEI programs?
Michael Bach (34:18):
Yeah.
And that's a great question.
That's what I'm, I'dspend my days doing now.
I would say that I havea few piece of advice.
First of all, slow and steady winsthe race as we remember the parable
of the tor tortoise and the hare.
Change takes time and you cannotmeasure this change in weeks and months.
(34:39):
It is measurement in years, andit's the slow and steady approach
that will have the lasting effect.
It's the old saying, howdo you eat an elephant?
One bite at a time.
And you have to just take astep and then take another step.
(34:59):
So slow and steady wins the race.
First piece of advice.
Second is that this is about real change.
It's not about the performative aspectsof the work, putting on black History
Month celebration or, it's into,it's women's History Month this year.
Putting on, some event that celebrateswomen in March is just performative bs.
(35:26):
It's not, it's it doesnot have any impact.
What you need to do is be lookingat as one example, pay equity.
Are you paying people thesame to do the same job?
And that's looking at it not just from aa sex lens, it's also looking at it from
a race and ethnicity lens an ability lensmaking sure that people are not being paid
(35:54):
less or more to do a job than their peers.
There's always, variables in thatconversation, but my point being that
we're talking about systemic change,not the performative lip service.
If you think, oh, I have to focus ondiversifying our leadership, which yes,
(36:18):
every employer should, then that's amassive amount of work that's gonna take
a long time and it's gonna take systems.
And it is not somethingthat happens quickly.
So you have to put those systemsin place, those processes to make
sure that you are ultimately makinghiring decisions based on merit.
(36:43):
But it, there's a whole lot of workthat has to happen and employers
have to be willing to do that work.
Annmarie Hylton (36:51):
Now, one of the things that started happening, especially
after 2020 and when everybody wasscreaming, DIDI is that they started to
hire a lot of people for DEI positions.
Yep.
And what tends to happen, and thisis just something I've observed, and
I'm sure you see this in the fieldthey usually grab the minority.
(37:15):
Usually it's always like ablack woman or that's the
stereotype that I see out there.
They're like, okay, this person,fits the bill and, and, and I have
a, feelings I guess a little bitabout that, that usually, 'cause the.
The black woman was gonna saywhat she thinks, and, also as a
woman and all these things, andand on, on the bottom of the list.
(37:35):
And obviously you have a differentperspective because you are a
male and a white male at that.
Yeah.
I, I know you have a diverse backgroundbeing part of the L-G-B-T-Q community.
But I guess in taking on such a roleand usually I guess being and I'm
making the conclusion, and you cantell me if I'm wrong, being surrounded
(37:58):
by people are usually are in a whatthey would call the minority group.
I guess how is your perspectivewhen it comes to these
things different or the same?
Michael Bach (38:11):
Yeah.
So I think giving a person a jobbased on their gender, their sex,
their color of their skin is alwaysa mistake, unless that aspect of a
person's identity is key to the job.
And I make that statement about DEIpractitioners just as much as I make
(38:34):
the statement about lawyers and doctorsand accountants and everyone we should
not be hiring someone based on an aspectof their identity that has nothing to
do with their ability to do the job.
In 2020, the number of phonecalls I got from clients.
(38:54):
Who were either directly asking for onlyblack candidates or subtly asking I,
there, there was no count in that one.
It, the question was not, doyou have, does this person
have the ability to do the job?
This ques the questionwas, is the person black?
And that is, there are lots of reallygreat people of color working in DEI,
(39:22):
but there are also lots of reallygreat white people working in DEI.
So I think that is a veryshortsighted approach.
It is never a good decision to toapproach things in that manner.
I'm a white man and I'll beblunt and say that I use that
(39:44):
to the advantage of others.
In that I can go into a roomand say things and be heard in a
different way than some people can.
I have privilege that comes withmy identities and I absolutely use
(40:05):
that to the advantage of others.
The question is not canwhite men do DEI work?
That's too simplistic.
It's, it, is it they empathize.
Can they appreciate do they have highlevels of cultural competence that
they understand the experiences ofdifferent communities, the communities
(40:27):
that they are there to fight for?
So I think it is the.
It really comes down to the individual.
Just because you're a, you're blackyou're a lesbian, you're, use a wheelchair
doesn't mean that you necessarily havethe empathy and cultural competence and
(40:48):
skills and experience to work in DEI.
It's not automatic.
I know people who come fromdifferent marginalized communities
themselves who are racist,sexist, homophobic, transphobic.
And so just because you're part ofa community doesn't necessarily mean
you're an advocate for that community.
(41:09):
Y you, I think my advice to clients aroundthis is just make the decision based on
what's good for your business, what arethe skills required to do the job, and
then hire a person who has those skills.
If you can hire a person from amarginalized community, obviously
(41:30):
that is an added benefit, but thatshould not be the primary decision.
Annmarie Hylton (41:35):
Yes.
I, yes, I agree.
'cause I was, I have to be honest,and then this, and I'm also looking
at from an out outsider perspectiveof not being, an DEI expert, but also
taking it into, I think maybe what alot of people have as a perspective.
And maybe one of the reasonsthat, it got rolled back is that
people were just feeling likeit was like a checkbox position.
(41:59):
And then, oh, we got our diverseperson, and they're like, oh, so you
were born out of the country, or dah.
Okay.
We checked our box yay.
As the company and run along.
And I have the question.
How from what you've seen in working withand various clients, how committed do you
feel that most organizations are to DEI?
(42:20):
Would you feel that it's just somethingthat they're like, oh, good, you're,
you're putting the stamp on for usthat we were we're good in that area,
and that, you've made the great ad.
Do you feel that a lot oforganizations are committed to this
in the way that they should be?
Michael Bach (42:37):
Oh, no.
The short answer is no.
I think some organizations havestronger commitments than others.
I think I often can I can often tell acommitment based on who I'm talking to.
If I'm talking to, a manager in a really,large organization that's likely that
(43:04):
it's not that strong a commitment.
If I'm talking to someone in theC-suite, it's a much stronger commitment.
Yeah, I don't think there isenough commitment because I don't
think people truly have donethe arithmetic to understand the
impact to their organizations.
I just don't see it enough
Annmarie Hylton (43:24):
now taking it down to I guess the employee or the day-to-day
interactions that people have.
I guess what would you say that you foundfor successful companies have made people
feel the most valued, respected, and ableand able to be their authentic selves?
I think,
Michael Bach (43:44):
Generally speaking it's programs and initiatives that
recognize and make people feel valuedfor their unique contributions.
A person doesn't want to be recognized andvalued for their identity, meaning I never
(44:10):
wanted to be the gay diversity officer.
I wanted to be the diversityofficer who happened to be gay.
And I think it's about making sure thatyou're treating everyone with respect.
(44:30):
You are.
Giving people opportunities to succeed.
You're investing in your people.
You're addressing things like racism,sexism, and homophobia in the workplace so
that when they occur and they will occur,that you can snuff them out really quickly
instead of allowing them to fester.
(44:53):
So I think, all of those things,there's, and there's many others.
It's really just aboutmaking people feel valued.
Annmarie Hylton (45:05):
Now, here's a I guess a, I'll call it a basic question, but
how do people, I guess get out of theuncomfortableness of working because I've,
I've seen this, I've experienced this ofworking in a diverse team because we live
in a world that is so siloed and people,they stick with their own people groups a
(45:29):
lot of times and, and there is and you'rea rare bird as I found out personally,
if you have, multiple types of friendsdifferent races, genders and and that,
that puts you out in a different type ofcategory than most people are used to.
So how do we get people tobe, I think, comfortable?
(45:51):
That's what I've always found and seenis that I always feel like there's
this uncomfortableness with people.
When they have to enter andtalk to people that are not
necessarily just, in their same box.
So how do we get people to getoutta that uncomfortable weird
feeling that hangs in the air?
Yeah
Michael Bach (46:11):
Something is only strange to us until we've experienced it.
And that's ultimately how you get you,you become a more inclusive person
is by exposing yourself to differenceso that it stops being strange.
(46:32):
It is, the reality isthat it is human nature.
It is part of our biology that we areattracted to people who have similar
experiences and identities to us.
'cause our body just saves energybecause we don't have to think as much.
And the only way that you get used tothose differences and they stop being
(46:55):
strange, is by exposing yourself to them.
Your brain will take more energyand you will be more tired
because of that difference.
But over time it just startsto become second nature.
So if you don't know anybody who is froma different race or ethnicity, from a
(47:18):
different sexuality, et cetera, find them,be friends with them, get to know them,
start to understand their experiences.
And then slowly but surely over timeit just starts to become natural.
Annmarie Hylton (47:36):
Now I have some HR questions and then I'll give
you a last hopefully fun question.
From an HR perspective how wouldyou say that they can, we can ensure
job descriptions and recruitmentprocesses are inclusive of everyone.
Michael Bach (47:53):
The best way is to really test them and there are applications
online that will look at the languageyou're using and determine if some
of that language is more more biasedin favor of one group or another.
And I. I there's a, an app out therecalled Vis di, I think V-I-Z-E-D-I.
(48:22):
And it, looks at the language in in yourdocument and says, Hey, this term, is
not necessarily inclusive and here's why.
You don't know what you don't know, right?
And a job description you may look atand go, oh, that's perfect, but then
someone else might read it and go, ohyeah, no, that's not perfect at all.
(48:43):
So you really do have to test themusing, various software platforms
that are now available to us.
Annmarie Hylton (48:52):
And my final question is going to be one word
that you would say the why for DEI.
Michael Bach (49:01):
One word that I would say is the why for DEI.
Money.
It's simplistic and it's a bit vulgar, butI think if we had to, if I can only pick
one word, it's about making more money.
It's about doing more with lessit's about a better economy.
(49:26):
So money,
Annmarie Hylton (49:29):
I like it and I like it because, when I, when you say money, and
I think, a lot of people obviously thinkof paper change and things like that,
but money is so much more than that.
It's really about, making plans,movements, and initiating change
and so I love your answer.
That's perfect.
(49:49):
Thank you.
And thank you Michael foryour time and insight.
To learn more about MichaelBach, go to michael bock.com.
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem,
or wanna change minds contactproject, good work@projectgood.org.
To start your project of Change today,subscribe to our mailing list at project
good.org/subscribe to get our episodesand blog articles sent to you each month.
(50:15):
To our listeners, thanks fortuning in to Project Good.
We're focused on what matters.
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