Ensuring Racial Equity in America

Episode Transcript
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Annmarie Hylton (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Project Good Podcast.
I'm your host, Annmarie Hylton.
Project Good is a social impact podcastinterviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is to inspirepeople and organizations to develop a
mindset that can move others to positiveaction regarding the conflict social

(00:23):
issues facing people and the planet.
For February, we're focusing onensuring racial equity in America.
It's been a stormy few weeks since theinauguration with DEI rollbacks, mass
deportation, tariffs, and protests.
The 2024 presidential election marked animportant checkpoint in American history

(00:45):
and the aftermath of this election isposed to change the political trajectory
of the United States, influencing policieson issues like climate change, health
care, economic reform, and social justice.
During the race for the officefor the president, key issues were
brought up around voting rights anddemocracy and major social issues like
reproductive rights, LGBTQ protections,gun control, and racial justice.

(01:12):
The last few weeks have brought backmemories of the gruesome history of
America and its biggest internal war withitself about race, humanity, equality,
equity, and what it means to be partof this country and how to make it.
These current modes have left peoplefeeling speechless and directionless.
Today, I have the pleasure of interviewingPortia Allen Kyle, the interim executive

(01:36):
director of Color of Change, a digitalfirst organization powered by millions of
members nationwide, leveraging campaigns,organizing, and narrative pressure
against government, corporations to acton real solutions for racial justice.
In this capacity, she leads theorganization's strategic advocacy
and day to day operations.

(01:57):
She previously served on the Bidenadministration as appointee to senior
advisor for equity policy and stakeholderengagement in the Office of Civil Rights
at the U. S. Department of Transportationunder Secretary Pete Buttigieg.
For over 15 years, Portia has spent hercareer advancing civil rights and civil

(02:17):
liberties through a lens of racial equityby crafting innovative policy reports
and solutions, building and supportingcoalitions, and interplanting legislative
and stakeholder engagement strategies.
She's also the author of Advice toThrive By, How to Use Your Resume and
Cover Letter to Build Your Brand andLaunch a Dynamic Public Interest Career.

(02:39):
A book aiming todemystify public interest.
Career Trajectories for LawStudents and Young Attorneys.
She's earned her J. D. from Rutter's LawSchool, her M. A. in African American
Studies from Columbia University,and her B. A. in Africana Studies
and Economics from Wesley College.
Portia has been featured on a, asa speaker, unquoted in print by

(03:01):
outlets including the WashingtonPost, Bloomberg Law, NBC News, and
Associated Press, and many more.
Let's get into the interview.
Racial equity in America is a complexand involving issue, and while

(03:23):
progress has been made in certainareas, significant challenges remain.
While legal discriminationhas been outlawed, systematic
racism persists in areas such ashousing, health care, education,
and the criminal justice system.
For example, Black Americans are stillmore likely to face harsher sentences
in the criminal justice system.

(03:44):
And have less accessto quality health care.
The racial wealth gap remains vast.
On average, black families have farless wealth than white families,
which is partially due to historicalfactors like slavery, segregation,
and discriminatory label practices.
This gap is reflected in disparities inhome ownership, savings, and inheritance.

(04:06):
The death of Black individuals likeGeorge Floyd and Breonna Taylor brought
attention to police violence againstBlack communities, sparking nationwide
protests and calls for reform.
Despite some progress, such as policebody cameras and calls for defunding
or reimagining police forces,Meaningful reform has been slow.

(04:26):
Disparities in educational outcomescontinue with black students
often attending schools that areunderfunded and lack resources.
There are also lower graduationrates and achievement gaps between
black students and their white peers.
The fight for voting rightscontinues with ongoing battles over
voter suppression, gerrymandering,voting laws that disproportionately

(04:48):
affect Black and minority voters.
Efforts to pass federalvoting rights protections have
faced challenges in Congress.
Let's see how we can start gettinga clearer picture with Color of
Change Interim Director PortiaAllen Kyle, who is an expert at
understanding how law, society,and race all intertwine in America.
Welcome, Portia.

Portia Allen-Kyle (05:09):
Welcome.
It's such a pleasure to be here.

Yes.
Thank you so much.
And, um, I think, you know, obviouslyyou are the perfect person to speak with.
As we, um, not only are in, uh, thismonth, I would say we've, we've just, you
know, passed the inauguration month, whichit's only been, we're on what week three.
I feel like I'm in one ofthese, um, uh, uh, D-Day movies

(05:34):
where you count each day and.
And a stamp happens like, you know,uh, you know, it was like day one, day
two, so each day gets like a stamp.
And so here we are now in a new month,um, February, and it's also Black History
Month, um, and, uh, you know, I don'tknow, um, you know, I guess, and, and,

(05:57):
and race happens to also be on the table.
Um, in this, uh, you know, uh, change of,uh, the guard, change of administration,
um, so, uh, you know, you are the perfectperson to, uh, speak to because you were
with, uh, the, uh, past administrationand also have the expertise of dealing
with the mix of, uh, the social, economic,and, you know, uh, political issues.

(06:24):
Um, so before, though, we get into,uh, looking at the quote unquote mess
that we are in, I would like to knowa little bit about you personally
and your heart as a human being.
Um, you know, most people, uh,when they start to look at law,
you know, have different reasonswhy they, uh, go into law.
And you, I would say, chose Uh,one of, uh, I guess a, a tough, um,

(06:50):
issue to battle within, um, law.
So why do you do what you do?

That is a great question.
And, you know, I really think there area few things, um, that both motivated
me in ways that I probably didn't.
recognize when I was younger.
Um, you know, my, my grandmother,um, was fortunate enough to have

(07:17):
attended college in the 40s.
She went to Southern University.
Uh, and in so many ways thatopportunity laid the groundwork, uh,
for my family and later for me to
dream about, you know, what is possibleand to, you know, think about what is

(07:38):
possible and, you know, to that endalso, um, taking very seriously, you
know, what is the responsibility thatwe have to leave the world, like, better
than we found it, um, and to leavethis country better than we found it.
And so, you know, have been.
Um, always looking to figure outhow to contribute my skills for
good and particularly, um, youknow, for the good of Black people.

(08:02):
And so, you know, winding up at Color ofChange, you know, as, uh, this dynamic
racial justice institution, um, issomewhat of a full circle and, you know,
one that I continue to be excited aboutbecause, you know, institutions like
ours, organizations like ours, you know,unapologetically Black founded, Black

(08:22):
led, pursuing, you know, racial justiceum, have a really critical place in the
ecosystem and a really uh, critical placeUm, that, you know, especially as we're
kicking off the days, right, into, um,this like new world order that we find
ourselves in, um, here in this country,

(08:44):
not taking for granted the role that wehave, um, to fight back, to, you know,
demand accountability, to find the joy.
Um, build relationships and organizein that joy, um, and to make a
new tomorrow possible, both, youknow, for us now and for, you
know, those who will come after us.

(09:06):
I mean, so really just seeking to bea better ancestor than a defendant,
um, I'm sorry, than a defendant.

I love that.
Um, you know, I love when people thinkabout, um, You know, the, the future,
the future generations and how theycan, um, not only set up, um, the other
generations to thrive, but serve as anexample and especially an example for
motivating for, um, goodness because thething that, well, I, I don't even probably

(09:39):
have to even say it, but the thing thatwe are, are missing is that everybody
is just thinking about self these days.
And um, And so to, uh, be a person, tothink beyond just, you know, the here
and now, and even deeper because, youknow, you don't know who these ancestors

(09:59):
are going to be and, you know, um, andwhat type of people they're going to
be, but to, uh, put to plant that seedthat, you know, no matter what path
that, you know, these future people take,that they had, um, you know, someone
that they can always look back to andsay, okay, but, you know, she did it.

(10:20):
And so that means I can do it too.
Um, so I love that.
I love when people, um, youknow, really think about.
Um, themselves as, um, you know, uh,uh, a seed, I guess, essentially,
if I would, I guess if I were goingto put a picture to it, because, you
know, a seed, um, when you think aboutit, uh, like an apple tree, right, it

(10:41):
doesn't just give you one apple, itgives you many apples, so I love that.
Um, so let's, I guess, dive right into it.
And, um, the biggest thing, I, I don'tknow, I had to kind of, uh, I guess maybe
I'm, um, emotionally sensitive, but Ihad to kind of turn off, um, some of
these, uh, news things when I saw peoplelike, you know, screaming because, you

(11:05):
know, their, their relative was beingdeported or, um, you know, especially
when they were like young kids and,you know, they're losing their parents.
And so I was just like, I, I washorrified of what we're seeing.
Like, I can't believe that.
We're We're witnessing this stuff,like, for real, again, um, I just, you

(11:28):
know, it's, it's, you know, I guess Ishouldn't be surprised, but to watch
it, um, is just, it, there's somethinginside of you that just, you know,
clicks really wrong, um, and so here wefind ourselves once again facing this
ongoing battle, and in a way I, I haveto confess, like, I, I do get Exhausted

(11:53):
a little bit with the, the racial issuebecause I feel like it goes around and
around and around and around and we neverquite just like get an understanding.
So how would you, I guess, when we're,when you're starting, when we're starting
to talk about this, I guess, what, whatdo you think America has to really do

(12:16):
to, to confront this issue of race?
Like for once and for all, is there sucha thing or you think that's just a no go?

So I think it's a complicated question because there,
you know, we didn't get here overnight.
We got here through You know, centuriesof conscious, affirmative decisions that
have propped up, um, you know, racistpower structures that have propped up,

(12:49):
um, you know, corporate exploitationand, you know, profit at the expense
of everybody else that have, you know,created the systems and the outcomes that
we are seeing and that we have today.
And I think that, you know, administrationis No different, um, you know, from what
happens when, you know, collectively we'vedecided to prioritize, uh, profit over

(13:11):
people, um, for an extended period of timeand, you know, what that has looked like
in a lot of different ways, whether it isthrough, um, under investing or removing,
you know, money from our public educationsystem, uh, whether it is, You know, the
role of media in, uh, both complacencyand mis and disinformation, whether it

(13:36):
is the, you know, proliferation of, youknow, technology, uh, you know, that has
invaded every aspect of our, you know, dayto day lives, like, all of these things
are related and, you know, and, and raceis, you know, somewhat of a fabric and
a story and an organizing principle herein the United States, Um, that is really

(13:59):
about power, and who holds power, and,um, you know, and how people wield it.
And so, in order to, I think,confront, um, not just the kind of
question and the challenge of systemicracism, but really to demand actions

(14:19):
and build the will, I think, youknow, we have to expose the harms.
We have to build, you know,power and, like, organize
folks around real solutions.
We have to stop accepting, like, solutionsthat are not real and, you know, stop
subscribing to the exceptionalism,you know, ideals or that, you know,

(14:40):
because one person, uh, You know,because one person or one company
or, you know, something have made itdespite the odd, uh, you know, being
fact against them, um, that, you know,it's, it's evident or an excuse as to,
you know, why the system works, right?
Or, you know, why things are okay.
I think we need to Um, you know,except at this stage in the game that

(15:03):
what we have going on is not onlynot normal, but also not working.
And then be in relationship, buildstronger, you know, relationships
and continue to, you know, organizefrom the ground up, build power
from the ground up to, you know,push narratives and change stories.
Um, it's a part of the reason why Colorof Change, uh, relies on both the power

(15:24):
of people and the power of narrative,the whole, uh, policymaker and.
Um, corporate actors, uh, you know, feedto the fire on racial justice is because
we recognize the power of a story.
And that, you know, the power of astory in changing, you know, somebody's
mind and, you know, making themsee an issue differently and, you

(15:45):
know, making, uh, those connections.
We also recognize the power of storiesand perpetuating a lot of the harms
and the normalization of injusticethat, you know, happens around us.
And so needing to take head on, um,You know, the removal of harmful
stories while also promoting andhighlighting different, uh, you know,

(16:07):
stories of Black people, of Blacklife, of, you know, Black communities,
and, uh, Black joy and success.
As a part of that recipe, you know,to, to move forward, um, down the line.

Yes, and, yes, and changing the story.
And one of the things I, I think,um, you know, in this, in these last,
uh, I guess few weeks, I'm like, ordays, I, I forget what day, because
each day, um, something has happened.
But, um, Uh, one of the biggestthings that I think when especially
we talk about stories is, uh,the DEI, um, uh, removal of DEI.

(16:46):
Um, I think a lot of people had astory, uh, specifically about DEI.
They thought, um, DEI was, youknow, focused on mostly, um,
helping, uh, uh, black people.
But one of the things I think thatpeople didn't understand was DEI was
inclusive of not only black people, butit was also inclusive of just women,

(17:07):
whether they were black or white.
Um, and so now I guess that Um, perhapspeople are waking up to see that, uh,
everything really is intertwined, that wehave to, that we aren't just, um, I think
people didn't understand, I guess, howthings even affected them personally, um,

(17:31):
that, uh, you know, that, that race isnot, uh, pun intended and not pun intended
in a way, just a black and white issue,that it, uh, really Um, you know, had,
uh, gradations, um, and that it, uh, youknow, was affecting people, um, that, you
know, weren't necessarily looking at race.

(17:53):
So should we be concerned now, I guess,that, uh, DEI, um, is being removed from
a lot of, uh, major companies or that theyare, you know, it's not a major concern
now that that the, uh, new administrationhas, uh, uh, put that into effect.

I mean, I think absolutely we, we should be concerned,
but we, you know, shouldn't necessarilybe concerned because of the merits
of any particular, like, DEI programat, you know, any given company, but
more so because what is being attackedare the wins and gains of civil, of
the civil rights movement, right?
The gains of the civil rightsmovement, um, you know, we're all

(18:35):
about unlocking opportunity, um,in doing so through protections
for, you know, for certain groups.
Um, that had been historically,you know, overlooked, excluded, um,
you know, locked out of system, uh,opportunities both legally and in
practice for years upon years upon years.

(18:58):
Right?
And so, you know, providing thoseremedies, the, you know, kind of the legal
framework that allow for those gains, thenon discrimination and anti discrimination
causes for, you know, program.
Um, you know, an effort like affirmativeaction that were, you know, about
offering redress where there had beendemonstrable past actions that had, you

(19:20):
know, looted black people and others,um, women, et cetera, from, um, Various
opportunities in public life, you know,those are the things that they are
attacking and I you know Don't knowthat it's necessarily because people
don't understand the benefits of the e.
i.
No one You know goes this hard aftersomething that is a complete failure.

(19:41):
It just doesn't make sense like they'reyou know attacking this the right,
um in particular and those who are umEssentially, neo segregationists that
are, you know, looking to push a veryclear agenda, and that agenda is all about
emphasizing merit by eliminating civilrights and anti discrimination protection.

(20:04):
That agenda, um, that they're pushingis about promoting misinformation
under the guise of free speech.
Like, the agenda, um, Um, that theseneo segregationists are pushing are
about peddling hate for profit and,you know, seeing the, you know, power
and the incentive structure of, uh, youknow, profit in a lot of these corporate

(20:26):
actors in addition to, you know, themwanting to align with political power.
Um, and so, you know, it's not justthat, uh, the rollback of the EI programs
themselves are troubling and problematic,but it's the rollback of these programs.
Um, so publicly, you know, they're,they're always with the option to just

(20:46):
stop doing something and be quiet aboutit, like making public statements that
they sing and signal, you know, a, a thingand a shift in a belief, um, especially,
you know, in the political context we'rein with this new administration, um, you
know, it also, many of these companiesAdvertised and promoted their, um, ESG,

(21:09):
you know, programs, their DEI program,their, um, ESG is Environmental and Social
Governance program, um, you know, their,their diversity, equity, and inclusion
programs and ways and, um, and practicesand ways of doing business that they,
you know, made a lot of money on, right?
And so if we think a company like Lowe's,for example, um, You know, back in 20,

(21:36):
I believe, 17 or 2018, during the firstTrump administration, um, you know, Trump
had stood up a business council, and alot of CEOs were on that business council.
One of them was the CEO of Uber,another was the CEO of Home Depot.
And so folks began schlocking to Lowe'sas the more socially responsible company
because the CEO was not on Trump'sbusiness council and you know catering,

(22:01):
uh, you know to trump during the firstadministration And so, you know here
we are a few years later after thatkind of customer goodwill Um, and
belief of, you know, LODE being the,you know, kind of less trumpy, more,
um, socially responsible alternative.
Here they are announcing that they arebacking away from, you know, their DEI
commitments and investments, et cetera.

(22:24):
Um, and so just, you know, kind of sharethat example to say, you know, it, it is
somewhat about the particular program,like, yes, we can debate the merits
of diversity, but, you know, what is.
really thought after, um, by the right,by neo segregationists, is to take us
back to an era before protections, andthat, you know, not sending us back

(22:47):
to Jim Crow, that's sending us back,you know, to times in history prior.

Yes, I feel like, yeah, it's, uh, we're like at the, the 60s,
or maybe even before, if we continue,yeah, I'm like, if we continue even
before, huh, um, and, and here's thething that I I, because I was, um, in
preparing for this interview, I startedlooking at just like, um, you know, uh,

(23:15):
statistics of, you know, um, uh, youknow, world, the minority, what we call
the minority is actually the majority ofthe, the world, even people don't want
to, to face the facts, um, and then Iwas looking at, you know, um, things such
as, uh, a birth rate and what's going on.
And so, you know, there, there is a, adecline, I guess, when it comes to, uh,

(23:40):
even for Europe and for white Americansand, and birth rates and things like that.
And so the reason that I'm bringing thisup is that, um, that there is, um, you
know, I'm, I'm, I'm just speaking in.
Uh, in terms of looking at what'sgoing on from a, uh, I guess
continuation of generations, um, from,uh, from a Caucasian perspective.

(24:06):
Uh, there's, there's a, there's a declinein, I guess, uh, the amount of people,
even though right now, you know, um, youknow, there's still obviously millions
and millions, uh, of, of people, but, uh,with over, over time, if the trajectory
continues, there's going to be, um,less and less people who would be quote
unquote considered, uh, white because thebirth rate on that side is going down.

(24:31):
So I started thinking, um, Do youfeel that, uh, you know, what's coming
out is that there's this feeling ofthat whiteness is maybe under attack?
Is that why this is, we areexperiencing this, like, uh,
so direct and in your face?

I don't know that I would, you know, say
that whiteness is under attack.
I mean, there are so many kind of metricsout there that, uh, substantiate, um,
and, you know, Support the idea that, uh,
white supremacy, you know, not only existsbut is, you know, real that, you know,

(25:14):
privilege and a lot of other factorsand, and, you know, our institutions
and systems have, you know, been built.
uh, around ideas of whiteness and thesuperiority of whiteness, um, that
we should be completely dismantling,but we're, we're not there yet.
There are still a number of metrics, um,where through, you know, disinvestment,

(25:35):
through unearned access and opportunity,where we know whether folks feel
aggrieved or not, uh, where, where weknow that, you know, the outcome aren't
necessarily matching the feeling.
If that makes sense, butwhat I, you know, would say

(26:00):
is that, you know, that's why weneed to organize that come in that,
you know, is why as like people whobelieve, um, in equity, people who
believe in justice, people who believespecifically in racial justice, you
know, need to be in one accord, um,building relationships, building power,
doing that kind of flow grind workof organizing and coming together.

(26:23):
Because this work is for the longhaul, you know, they're It's sometimes
more convenient to think about Gainsand losses in the election cycle, but
you know, what life is life, right?
It's like over The progress and gainsof the civil rights movement for example
We're not necessarily just seen inthe four years like those games have

(26:47):
revenated Um, and have been expanded, andI think it's, you know, up to us to work
actively toward building a world whereour, you know, children and grandchildren
have more rights than we do, not fewer.
And right now, with the direction and thetrajectory that we are headed on, um, we
are like, quickly descending into a placewhere, you know, our daughters will have

(27:11):
fewer rights than their grandparents did.
And I think we have to collectivelydecide that that's not okay, and
that's not the world we want to livein, and work to build something else.

Yes, um, and I have a, uh, maybe a foolish question to
ask, but I'm going to ask it anyways.
Um, why do you think that people donot want to, I guess, share power?
Obviously, you know, we, we, we'veseen the, the movies with the villain
that has control over everything, haha ha, but I, I would like to think

(27:43):
that not everybody thinks that way.

But that's why power is so important, because, you know,
recognizing it or not, um, you know, poweris what allows you to write the rules.
And so we see in this moment the,like, blatant grab for power by this
administration, by the billionaire class,um, you know, by these corporations
who are, you know, who, number one,invested in the past election cycle

(28:10):
like their lives depended on it,because in their minds it did, right?
Like a dumping hundredsof millions of dollars.
Um, you know, I believe, youknow, the figure for, you know,
how much money spent in the pastelection was around 500 million.
Well, what's 500 million toa multi billionaire, right?

Sit there.

When, and I think, you know, that's the fallacy while, you
know, the emphasis for so many, um, The,the messages out there often being sent
to black people, you know, particularlyaround the economy are around wealth
building, wealth building, build wealth,build wealth, close the racial wealth gap.
And, you know, it's not that thosethings are not important, but

(28:50):
kind of putting it in context.
If wealth was enough, we wouldn't seebillionaires and, you know, corporate
oligarchs like looking to take overthe government for power, right?
And so, like, power.
Then, like, has to be thecenter of the conversation.
It has to be the organizing principle andbuilding power to demand racial justice,

(29:14):
building power to demand solutions,building power to, you know, fight for
a world that is, you know, differentfor tomorrow than it is for today
and certainly better than yesterday,you know, has to be the pathway.
And power is, you know, like,power is powerful, right?
And it's not about presence.

(29:35):
And I think, you know, that is where,um, you know, folks who are opposing
DEI, um, are, you know, wanting tosomewhat be, use the language of
presence, um, when actually what theyare opposing is the sharing of power.
And You know, civil rights laws andprotections, um, a lot of the EI programs

(30:00):
are all about unlocking opportunitiesthat were previously unlocked.
And if folks really believed in merit,then you would want opportunities
open to as many people as possible.
And if, you know, you are trulyequipped, you compete on your merit.
And I think what folks perhaps,even if not, you know, outwardly or

(30:21):
overtly have, you know, recognized.
Okay.
Well.
Is that there are morequalified people in the world.
Um, and how much how many of theyou know positions how many of you
know Admissions, you know how many?
uh jobs degrees Everything else ifyou had to compete On merit would

(30:45):
actually be unearned by the folksthat have historically held them.
You know, you don't get to uh, you knowover 90 percent, you know white fortune
500 ceos because everyone competedfairly on merit There's more going on
there and, you know, where power couldbe hoarded, power could be not shared,

(31:05):
folks could be systematically excluded.
Um, marginalized and oppressed,you know, that is a system that
works for some better than others.
And you see it in the rhetoric ofthis administration and, you know,
the many supporters of it, that itis about, you know, a refursion to
the good old days of white male rule.
And we have to collectivelybe fighting back against that.

(31:28):
When I said good old dayswith irony and air quotes.

Yes, no, I, I, I caught it in your, in your, your voice, the,
the, for the, the good old days because,um, you know, of course the whole, um,
slogan was make America great again,uh, kind of, uh, you know, bringing,
bringing back that, the, um, I guessyou could say the not hidden but hidden,

(31:54):
um, you know, meanings all, all in it.
Um, And so, as one of the things, youknow, um, that have been happening,
obviously, because of, uh, such things asthe, now the mass deportations, we've seen
people as protests and people gatheringtogether, and so, um, being that, um, uh,

(32:16):
you know, maybe not here in the U. S.,but globally, um, the, what is considered
the minorities are the majority of theworld, um, I guess what, what has been
keeping Um, Um, what has been keepingthe, the people from gathering, I guess,
together to not put up with this anymore.
That's the thing, and one of the thingsthat, you know, I, I know not everybody

(32:39):
thinks on the same, same page, but,um, uh, even to, couldn't, Like why, I
guess, what's it going to take to, togather people to, to, I guess, fight
about, to fight against this, or to,uh, to get to this point that we can

(33:01):
look at, um, you know, really change.
Like I feel like there's somethingthat's holding people back.
What, what, what have you seen that'sholding people back from really like
pushing forward to make these changes,because there are more people who want
these changes than not, I think, ormaybe I'm being deceived by what I see.

Yeah, I think, I think that's a great question.
And so, you know, at Color of Change,you know, part of, like, we're an
organization that is driven by membersand, you know, our role is And the role
that we've played, you know, over thepast 20 years has been to serve as a
political home for black people and,you know, to do so by providing people

(33:45):
opportunities for strategic action thatthey can take on racial justice, demanding
solutions, and moving the ball forward.
And so, you know, I think especially in,in moments like these, it's important
not only And I'm going to sound likea broken record and maybe a little bit

(34:06):
cheesy, but like it's important to notonly find the joy Right, like just to
put in context some of the most likelasting Artistic pieces some of the
most beautiful literature etc by blackpeople have have come out of pretty dark
moments in history And we've always beena resilient people, able to, you know,
channel our efforts and our energy intobeauty, um, you know, and, uh, make

(34:32):
lemonade from lemons, you know, whenlife, you know, having given us the tools
that we, that we necessarily deserve,we've still always had all that we need.
Um, but in addition to the kindof finding the joy, finding your
people, you know, celebrating thethings that, that are the wins.
You know, when, when we're taking on thefight, it's important to make sure that

(34:54):
we are all fighting against the same,against the same people and for the same
thing, and building that understanding,highlighting the harm, you know, being
caught by those, you know, who are infront of us, um, you know, our, our
government and the billionaires, you know,running it at the moment, are working
right now to make sure, um, you know,through the passing of these tariffs,

(35:18):
the people that are going to be hit thehardest by that are, you know, people of
left or means, are, you know, black andbrown folks, um, lower income folks who
are, you know, on the front lines andless able to shield themselves from the
impact of some of these, uh, tariffs.
They are, it is the small businessowners who, you know, require Uh,

(35:40):
you know, their, their products, um,and materials to, that they import
from other countries, you know, for,uh, for parts or labor or otherwise.
Um, it, you know, they are workingdouble time to give themselves all
a major tax break at the moment.
Um, while meanwhile, you know,disinvesting and trying to shut

(36:00):
down a department as critical asthe Department of Education, which,
you know, provides so much necessaryfunding to our public school system.
Um, you know, so much, so muchguidance and protection to our
students in those school systems.
Um, and particularly for TitleI schools and schools in, you

(36:20):
know, uh, lower resourced areas.
Um, but these are, you know,actions that people, you know,
need and part of the role Color ofChange plays in our narrative work.
It's providing context and providingthe meaning, um, and, and really
making sense of the moment so thatpeople have a story of harm and

(36:41):
a story of pollution on justice.

Yes, um, and so once I guess everybody, I guess, is on the,
uh, I guess getting everybody on, onthe same page and really understanding,
especially right now, because I feelone of the other things that's big in
society is, is, is I'm sure you've seenon, on micro and macro levels is the,

(37:08):
uh, I almost call it the brainwashing.
Like nobody seems to know theyeven question now, even if the,
the, the planet is a round or not.
Um, and so getting peopleall on the same page.
Uh, getting the, all the people on thesame page is just, um, key and I think
one of the things that you, um, that I, Iwas digging a little bit deeper into what

(37:32):
you were saying is that there is a, uh, Iguess getting people to kind of hope the
same on and, uh, And to kind of want to,um, I guess push together because there's
this thing I believe that a lot of, um,people feel that they, they hold back

(37:56):
because they're, they're, there's this,um, uncertainty of like, um, you know, I
guess, uh, maybe from like disappointmentsor what they've experienced or, Uh,
you know, could be a number of, ofdifferent things, but getting people,
um, all on the same page is, uh, Iwould say, um, extremely difficult.

(38:17):
And so with the, uh, with yourorganization Color of Change, I guess
right now, because I'm sure, I'm surein the, as we count down the days,
it's been maybe, um, you know, um,I don't know if I should use heart
wrenching or maybe feeling thatyou're running, like, back and forth.
What would you say has been, nowthat you see kind of how, um, things

(38:42):
are starting to unfold out herepolitically, um, what would you say
your, your main focus is going tobe, uh, during this year, I guess?
Because things are changing,like Left and right.

Absolutely.
You know, so color of change is, um,unique for, for a few different reasons,
but one of the primary ways that we area little bit unique in the ecosystem
is that we don't take corporate money.
And that allows us to do a lot of, uh,a lot of corporate accountability work
and, you know, demanding, um, that notjust government take action to hold

(39:21):
corporations accountable, but, you know,making demands directly on companies
to change their practices and end theirmost exploitative practices and those
that are harmful, you know, most harmfulto black people and black communities.
Um, and I say that because we are ina moment, um, especially where, uh,
the federal government is signalingderegulation, you know, where companies

(39:41):
are really looking to, um, you know,really potentially about to, well,
some of them are going to catch awindfall with the tax break, others,
um, are going to have a field day inthe, you know, kind of deregulated
environment or this environmentwhere government is not going to.
where the federal government isnot going to serve as the watchdog.

(40:03):
It is up to us to kind of dowhat we can from a communications
and um, organizing strategy.
The intersection of like people andnarrative is that uh, ability to translate
um, you know, and connect in real lifeand build that uh, alignment over the long

(40:23):
term project and the longer term goal.
Um, but also, you know, in thatcorporate accountability space.
Uh combined particularly we're focuseda lot this year Um on the tax fight we
have, you know jumped in over the pastcouple of years been building out and
you know carrying out campaign um thatboth are targeted towards the corporate

(40:46):
lobby, but also around protecting adirect file, which is essentially the
irf is Public option if that makes sense.
And so like, you know direct file isthe affordable care act of taxes Whereas
people used to have to go to privatecompany, you know to Uh prepare their
taxes the government invested under thelast administration A lot into providing

(41:11):
a free alternative for many taxpayers Andso there are millions of taxpayers across
25 states that because of this investmentIn direct file, we'll be able to cut out
the corporate middleman, uh, you know,that was both preying on their data and
their money and be able to file and gettheir refund directly with the government,
saving, you know, millions of dollars,uh, you know, at least nine hours per

(41:38):
person on average who uses the direct filesystem, um, that they will no longer need
to, you know, suspend doing their taxes.
It's important for us to, you know,continue and to be in the fight on this
work, um, especially as ensuring, um, thispublic option and engaging in the overall

(41:58):
fight on the renewal of Trump's tax cut,uh, from 2017 are all connected about how
democracy and government are supposed towork for communities, and particularly
for Black people and Black communities.
And you know shining a lot of emphasisthere Uh the other place where you know,
we have been spending a lot of time andenergy I mean look at the inauguration

(42:20):
you saw all of the tech giants lined up onstage They put governors in the other room
to make faith for, you know, corporationson the page, uh, you know, uh, during
the inauguration, which I think is asignal around, um, particularly for tech.
Um, you know, what is to come withregards to the ways in which tech is

(42:43):
able to, uh, write their own rulesand, you know, live by their own.
Uh.
set of non regulation and principles,um, mostly guided by innovation
for innovation's sake and profit.
And so Color of Change in Decemberlaunched the Black Tech Agenda, which
lays out a kind of comprehensive,um, view and approach, uh, how

(43:08):
we view both the development oftechnology, what is required for
oversight of companies for, you know,the, um, protections for individual
And community on top autonomy on data, youknow, looking at the environmental impacts
of tech development And so we're going tobe spending quite a bit of time this year.

(43:29):
Um working both, uh at the state leveland um In our organizing bringing
folks together Around to build poweraround solutions Um, or heck, and
it's kind of permeation into all ofour daily lives in ways that are much
more protective, um, and beneficialto black people in black communities.

Wow, and both of those are, are critical.
You know, one of the things I, you know, Ididn't even know about the, uh, you know,
um, to me it seemed like it should havebeen a common sense that you could file
directly already with the IRS that, youknow, that would have, uh, To me, it makes
common sense to get your money right away.
And, uh, but, um, uh, you know, um,yeah, it should be so common sense.

(44:17):
I don't know why it wouldn'texist at the beginning.

Like they've spent hundreds of millions of
dollars lobbying against it.
Because they, you know, wantour money and want our data.

Yeah, I just, you know, to me, yeah, it's
just been like, uh, common.
We, we're making things so complicated,but I, you know, but I'm, I'm, I, I
tend to be a very practical person,so to me, it would have made sense.
All right, let's get the money, let'ssee how much you owe, we give it back,
we're done, move on, next person.
Um, but, you know, uh, we might.
to complicate things.

(44:50):
And then, especially with technology, youknow, obviously technology is just going
to keep getting, growing and growing.
And, um, as you were talking abouttechnology and then talking, um, you
know, not only about taxes, I started tosee, uh, kind of that we are preparing
for, um, a different type of war, not anecessarily, you know, physical combat

(45:13):
war, but this is really like, um, Uh,you know, a preparation of war on an
intellectual but also on a, um, uh, youknow, a social but intellectual level.
I guess how would you say for individualsfor, um, you know, um, for, uh, African

(45:36):
American and Black individuals, um, in theU. S., I guess, how should they How should
they prep themselves in these, thesetimes of these, uh, maybe, uh, it looks
like it's starting out, like, um, uh,really difficult, uh, four years ahead?

(45:57):
That was a tough question.
I know.
That's, that's what I'llcall my beauty pageant test.
You could just give me, youcan give me just three, three
points that you can think of.
Cause you know, I think maybe,you know, uh, you might want to
say, you know, uh, go to Bermudaor, or go to Bali and wait it out.

I, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't say go to colorchange.
org and get involved.
Um, find your people, hope, you know,hopefully we can, uh, be your people,
but, um, but really in this moment,find your people, um, and ways to
both, you know, kind of protect yourpeace, protect yourself, but also

(46:39):
take action, um, and, and build up.
I think the, you know, kind of second,there's so much energy out there, um,
and the kind of building on the findyour people, when you find your people.
Um, find the thing that you cando together that moves, you know,
the ball down the road, right?

(47:00):
That, you know, leaves us in a place,um, you know, a little bit better
off or, you know, a little bit, um,that builds momentum, you know, for
racial justice a little bit more.
Um, and I guess the, the third thing.
Um, really, I guess, buildingon the both of those.
So, go to colorofchange.

(47:20):
org, you know, flesh, find yourpeople, um, when you find your people,
you know, take collective action.
Um, I think the third is, like,make it, make it joyful, right?
Like, we have to remind ourselves of thewins, you know, even thinking November 5th
was a devastating day for many of us whowere hoping for, uh, an outcome that, uh,

(47:41):
would allow for some, uh, more positivepossibilities over these next four years.
Um, and while, you know, the outcome atthe top was pretty devastating, there was
some pretty great history made that day ifyou looked at other parts of the ballot.
Um, there were, uh, There was masspublic support for ballot initiatives

(48:03):
and protections around abortion,around, you know, workers, around,
um, you know, economic justice.
There were, you know, two blackwomen elected to the Senate.
There were, like, just all of thesedifferent things that if we frame the
conversation, and this is why the powerof narrative, if we frame the conversation
around the law, We're doing that at theexpense of the gains and the wins and

(48:25):
just a different story that is stillthe story of what happened in November,
but a story that is more representativeand hopeful than just focusing on what
didn't happen at the top of the ballot.
Um, until finding that joy, thatreframing, you know, thinking.
Of, um, you know, of the, what doyou need in this moment to stay sane?

(48:48):
And remembering that, like, chaos isthe strategy and cruelty is the policy.
And that's what, you know, the rightwants us to be tired, overextended.
Miserable, hopeless, and theresistance, the like real resistance
and like pathway is like rememberingand just, you know, refusing to

(49:08):
let them keep us in that place.
I

love that.
Choose joy.
And because it is, it'sdefinitely a different message
than I think everybody is, is.
thinking because, uh, you know, cause I,I started out the conversation saying war.
So definitely war and joy are a completeopposites, but, um, choosing, choosing
joy and, um, you know, and I guess whatyou would, if I were to say you're,

(49:37):
it's all about perspective and what wechoose to focus on and make those things
that are, um, Positive all the wins thatwe did achieve help those to continue
to grow and to bring those to light.
And like you've been saying, youknow, weave those in as that is
the narrative and, um, you know,bringing that narrative to life to.

(50:01):
You know, motivate people tocontinue to move ahead no matter,
you know, what obstacles andcraziness is unfolding around them.
Um, so I think that's, that's a,a, a powerful answer, um, to keep
people, um, on the, on the path andnot to get distracted by, you know,

(50:22):
whatever craziness comes out each week.
Because it seems, you know, since we'vebeen through this before, we, we kind
of shouldn't be surprised that eachweek it's going to be breaking news.
As that became the, the taglinethat I remember from the, the last
round, that was my, the taglinethat I felt like I should get a

(50:42):
t shirt that said breaking news.

100 percent

Um, and so, uh, I just have a few more questions.
Um, and so, uh, I guess getting back tokind of, uh, the, the, the title of, um,
you know, ensuring equity in America.
First of all, what is equity?
Cause I don't know sometimes if peopleunderstand equity versus equality.

(51:08):
Um, so what is equity?

You know, that Um, that is a really great question, you
know, the the thing I immediately wentto in my head was, you know The picture
of the kids sometimes they're on heart.
Sometimes, you know, they're tryingto look over a fence at a baseball
game um But but it's all about kindof what people need to compete um To

(51:34):
compete on equal on equal footing rightlike to act as opportunities equally.
Um, and so thinking about uh equitythen um as Both strategy so that the
how you get to that future state, rightif that makes sense You know, what?

(51:55):
What are the programs?
What are the services?
What are the protections?
What's the legal framework?
What are the And that
equity is thinking Holistically acrossthe board about you know, what is good
for everybody by by taking into account

(52:16):
You know what?
Individual, you know particularlyneed to get to that place.
Um, I, and I guess I'd, you know,say, like, to me, equity and justice.
really go hand in hand.
Um, and so, you know, as an organizationthat is a racial justice organization

(52:38):
and that does racial justice work, um,as a, where we view racial justice as
a strategy and a mean to get to an end.
Um, the end that we are working towardis a more human and less hostile
world for Black people and all people.

Yes, I like that more, uh, a human world.
I think everybody can,um, definitely relate.
There's, there's, uh, we have hostilityon all, all, all fronts and And, um, and,
you know, especially for black peoplereceive, uh, the, the, the truckload.

(53:15):
Um, and so one of the things I guess,um, when, uh, I guess you, you feel
that, um, I don't know within thesetimes, do you think that equity
can be achieved during these times?
I think it's,

it's a long term project.
I mean, we didn't get here overnight.
Um, you know, and we won't kind ofget to the side of this overnight,
but sometimes the only way,the only way around is through.
And so, you know, continuing to kindof keep focused, you know, when we
are talking about equity, when we'retalking about racial justice, what
we're talking about is where systemsserve people, not profit, right?

(53:54):
When, you know, race no longerdetermines Uh, access or outcome,
you know, on things such as housing,education, health care, um, we know
that we'll be on the right path whenthose things are no longer true, right?
Um, but the kind of pathway to getthere, you know, progress isn't

(54:16):
necessarily about good intentions.
It's about tracking outcome, um, and, youknow, to your earlier question, why the
Uh, you know, why the, uh, deletion ofdata sets at, uh, many of these federal
agencies that campaign race or genderor other markers is, uh, so important

(54:36):
because those, we know that those, uh,with impure intentions will, um, deny
the existence of racism by no, you know,because they no longer will have the
data to say here is where things are.
Unequal here is where things areinequitable But you know, we know
that every disparity is a signalthat we need to do more work, right?

(54:57):
We know both through lived experience, umand engagement Uh, you know, through data,
through research, that identifying thegaps and then developing the strategy and
the benchmark needed, um, is important.
Like, we know that we, uh, you know,when we're talking about equity, it like
sometimes can sound very abstract, butit actually is pretty tangible, right?

(55:19):
Um, you know, it.
Kids being able to eat, you know on aregular basis before they get to school
that they're able to you know learn fromupdated and accurate textbooks about
You know, not just US history, but blackhistory, you know in particular You know
Uh, having an equal shot of success,that families can, you know, secure, uh,

(55:43):
homes and futures for their children, youknow, children can attend schools that
are, you know, equitably resourced and,you know, providing them with the tools
that they need to, you know, grow up,uh, you know, safe, secure, without fear.
Um, it's all of those things, and I dothink that's possible, um, you know, or

(56:04):
at least making significant progress downthe path, uh, you know, towards equity
and really towards justice is possible,um, in our lifetimes if we choose it.
And I think we, we're at the crossroadswhere collectively we have to

choose.
Yeah, you know, the one, the one wordthat kept popping in my mind as you
were, you were talking was humanity.
Um, and it's just about allowinglike equity and humanity
being like the, the, the same.
That kept coming in mymind of, you know, that.

(56:42):
Um, you know, if you have, uh, trueequity, it lets you be the human that
You should want to be or, or a want or awant to be, um, you know, uh, and so that
is why equity, um, is important becausein the end, it seems that, um, you know,

(57:03):
as you were explaining that it just, youknow, it helps all of us, um, because, you
know, it just, it allows people to feelthat, um, you know, quote unquote freedom
of what it is to be, I guess not to soundwoo woo, but a little bit alive, right?
Um, yeah, and that's, you know, and,and so I don't know anyone on the

(57:27):
whole planet that doesn't want that.
Um, and so hopefully, um, in that,that answer that you gave, that
people really understand equitya little bit more, that it just.
It allows everybody, um,you know, not just certain
groups, but just to feel alive.
And that's, you know, I think the numberone thing, unless you're, you know,

(57:49):
uh, uh, totally out of the game, um,that we are all, uh, working towards.
And so my, uh, final and, uh, closing,uh, question, I guess, um, You.
Um, I guess I should, uh, think abouthow I phrase this, because I don't know.
I feel like, as I said, the, youknow, we're in this, this movie.

(58:12):
Um, I guess if, I guess if you weregoing to give, uh, advice to the, the
new administration around, um, around,uh, equity and, and, and racial justice.
And you could only give him,uh, you know, a short answer.

(58:36):
What would you, what wouldyou give him as advice?
Reconsider.
I like that one word.
That's

a good one.
It was straight to the point.
Yeah.
Or re remi
and it's like self energy so thatI wouldn't feel that I wasted it.

I, I, sorry.
I love, I love that.
You know, uh, that's probablywhy is considering, um, you
know, uh, what we're up against.
Yeah.
Keyboard answers.
Uh, really, really straight to the point.
Reconsider.
Well, thank you so much, Portia,for your time and insight.
To learn more about PortiaAllen Kyle, go to colorofchange.

(59:20):
org.
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem,
or want to change minds, contactProject Good Work at projectgood.
org to start your project of change today.
Subscribe to our mailinglist at projectgood.
org slash subscribe to get our episodes.
And blog articles sent to youeach month to our listeners.
Thanks for tuning in to project good,where we're focused on what matters.

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