June 20, 2025 • 62 mins
In this episode of the Project Good Podcast, host Annmarie Hylton discusses the future of farming with Jesse Hirsh, a futurist, speaker, consultant, and goat herder based in rural eastern Ontario. Jesse shares his perspective on the vital role of farming in feeding the global population, supporting economies, and preserving the environment. The conversation delves into modern challenges such as climate change, soil erosion, and food insecurity, while also exploring innovative solutions like precision agriculture, robotics, and sustainable practices. Jesse emphasizes the importance of bridging the urban-rural divide, fostering community connections, and empowering new farmers through technology and sustainable methods. The episode explores the potential of genetic engineering, CRISPR technology, and blockchain in enhancing agricultural practices and ensuring food security. Jesse encourages listeners to engage with their local food systems, support sustainable farming, and embrace a holistic approach to agriculture.
00:00 Introduction to Project Good Podcast
00:22 The Importance of Farming
01:52 Interview with Jesse Hirsh: A Futurist's Perspective
03:05 Challenges Facing Modern Food Systems
03:48 The Appeal of Goat Herding
07:09 Jesse's Journey to Farming
17:03 The Disconnect from Nature
25:46 Sustainable Farming Practices and Technology
33:03 The Future of Farming: Radical Change or Gradual Implementation?
34:39 The Role of Technology in Modern Agriculture
35:24 The Importance of New Farmers and Sustainable Practices
35:43 The Broken Education System and Self-Learning in Farming
38:42 The Impact of Politics on Food Systems
40:58 The Power of Gardening and Collective Responsibility
44:00 The Potential and Risks of Genetic Engineering in Agriculture
48:45 Blockchain and Transparency in the Agricultural Supply Chain
51:29 Global Perspectives on Farming and Technology
57:44 Community and Individual Actions for a Better Food Future
01:00:23 Closing Thoughts and Personal Insights
Jesse Hirsh is a futurist, speaker, consultant, and goatherd who brings an outsider's perspective, operating from his farm in rural Eastern Ontario. Yet this is no ordinary farm. Wired up with high-speed fiber optic Internet, the Academy of the Impossible engages in a wide range of research regarding agriculture, media, technology, and culture.
With almost 30 years of professional experience Jesse Hirsh is a broadcaster, researcher, public speaker and Internet evangelist in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. He has appeared on CBC Radio, and has a weekly spot on CBC Newsworld where he explains and analyses trends and developments in technology. He co-hosts an interfaith show on Omni Television called 3D: Dialogue.
Jesse has an infectious energy that lifts spirits and enables creative thinking. He’s always learning, sharing, and helping others to do the same. To learn more about Jesse Hirsh go to: https://jessehirsh.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Annmarie Hylton (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Project Good podcast.
(00:02):
I'm your host, Annmarie Hylton.
Project Good is a social impact podcast,interviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is toinspire people and organizations
to develop a mindset that canmove others to positive action.
(00:22):
Regarding the complex social issuesfacing people and the planet, for April,
we're focusing on the future of farming.
How did that apple, orange,or steak arrive on your plate?
It is increasingly becomingimportant and costly.
Farming remains vital for feeding theworld, supporting economies, preserving
the environment, and sustaining societies.
(00:45):
At its core, farming provides foodthat sustains the global population.
Despite advancements in technologyand industry, we are still.
Relying on agricultural practicesto produce crops, livestock,
and other food products.
Without farming, we would not have theresources to feed billions of people.
Agriculture is a significantdriver of many economies,
(01:07):
especially in developing countries.
It provides livelihoods for millionsof people from small scale farmers to
large scale agricultural enterprises.
In more industrialized countries,farming out contributes to
employment and overall economies.
Farming plays an essential rolein land management and ecosystems.
(01:27):
Sustainable farming practicescan help preserve biodiversity,
soil health, and water quality.
It also has the potentialto combat climate change.
Modern farming has becomingincreasingly high tech with
innovations in crop genetics,automation, precision agriculture.
This allows farmers to increaseproductivity, reduce waste, address
(01:48):
challenges like climate change or foodinsecurity in more sustainable ways.
Today I have the pleasure of interviewingJesse Hirsh, who's a futurist, speaker,
consultant, and goat herd who bringsan outside perspective operating from
his farm in rural eastern Ontario.
Yet it's no ordinary farm wired withhigh speed fiber optic internet.
(02:08):
The Academy of the Impossible engagesin a wide variety and range of research
regarding arch, um, agriculture, media,technology, and culture with almost
30 years of professional experience.
Jesse Hirsh is a broadcaster, researcher,public speaker and internet evangelist
in taunt Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
(02:29):
He's appeared on CBS radio and has aweekly spot on CBC News World where
he explains and analyzes trendsand developments in technology.
He co-hosts an interface show onomni television called 3D Dialogue.
Jesse has an infectious energy that liftsspirits and enables creative thinking.
(02:49):
He's always learning, sharing,and helping others do the same.
Let's get into the interview.
Many experts believe that the modern foodsystems are facing significant challenges.
(03:10):
While our agricultural practices and foodproduction have advanced dramatically
over the years, several factors areputting modern food systems at risk.
Some of the key reasons are climatechange, soil erosion, and loss of
fertility, biodiversity, food insecurity,supply change, vulnerabilities, water
scarcity, inefficiency, and waste,social and economic inequality.
(03:32):
Jesse Hirsh has taken a personalresponsibility in his life of
blending farming and technology, andwill be giving us insight into how
the world of farming is changing.
Welcome, Jesse.
Hi.
Hi, uh, it's a pleasureto have you on today.
I want to ask kind of a fun questionbefore we get into the interview, um, and
(03:53):
you know, and also because I was lookingat some of your, uh, pictures in preparing
for this interview why goat herding?
Jesse Hirsh (04:02):
Uh, goats are fantastic animals.
Uh, they're close friendsof mine, I'm happy to say.
And their personality, I think notonly reflects my own, but inspires
me as a human, as a goat herd to you.
You know, wake up every day and hang outwith them and have good times with them.
And, you know, there's a lotof ways to describe farmers.
(04:25):
There's a lot of ways to describepeople who ha while having the
option of living in the city.
Consciously choose to live closerto nature and live with animals.
And while I have lots of differentanimals, uh, both in our herd and
in our flock goats are the onesI think I identify with most.
So that's why the phrase goat herd.
(04:46):
Most people are morefamiliar with shepherd.
But goat herd I is equally valid,perhaps ancient phrase that I quite
like to associate myself with.
Annmarie Hylton (04:58):
Yes.
I haven't been a shepherdor a goat herder.
Um, but I don't know, I think maybegoats are easier than sheep or, um, I'm
just, , basing this on, looking at theanimals, uh, you know, sheep always seen
um, docile and a little bit clueless.
And, and goats are out to, uh, go getthat food or, you know, out to explore.
(05:19):
So totally different.
Jesse Hirsh (05:21):
Well, and, and to your point, goats are incredibly intelligent
and incredibly disobedient in that if youthink about them as a model of leadership,
they will only do what they want to do.
And you not only have to understand whatit is they want to do, you have to align
your interest with their interests.
(05:42):
And so I, I think, uh, th thiskind of anti-authoritarian animal
I is something I. That mostpeople don't think can be herded.
Most people don't thinkthey can be controlled.
And in fact, a lot of farmersbail on raising goats because
they are so difficult to contain.
They're great at escaping, they're greatat climbing and getting over fences.
(06:04):
So it, it, it's a bit of a humblebrag to say that you're a goat herd.
'cause it says that, you know,while herding cats is one level
of difficulty, herding goatsis an entirely different feat.
Annmarie Hylton (06:18):
Yeah.
When you were talking about goatsclimbing, it, it reminded me of, uh,
seeing, uh, goats, um, and treason Africa.
Hanging out like their leaves.
But here they are goats.
That was, very, um, interesting howyou, uh, decided to , take that up,
uh, considering your, your background,but also I think, it's, uh, giving
you kind of a, a different , I guess,inspiration of education because you're
(06:41):
dealing with things that are, you know,I guess people and, uh, life and the
planet, which is not controllable.
So I guess it's, uh, it gives youkind of that feeling like, you know,
you could only control so much.
And so, speaking of that now, um, andgoing into a little bit about farming.
(07:02):
I guess how did you, or why, I guesslet's start with the, why did you decide
to pick up farming in the first place?
Jesse Hirsh (07:09):
I mean, I was a futurist before I was a farmer, and as a futurist,
part of what you're asked, tasked to dois really think about what's coming next.
And most of the time you'redoing that for clients.
So you're doing that tohelp them anticipate their
future rather than your own.
But the more that I connected thedots, the more I wanted to be in
(07:32):
control of my own food supply.
The more that I wanted to be closer tonature, the more that I wanted to be
outside of cities when it comes to bothmanaging my own quality of life, but also
feeling like I had agency feeling like Ihad, uh, the ability to make a difference.
I, albeit maybe a small one.
(07:53):
And, finally, the other aspect tothat was recognizing how much the
urban, rural divide really definesour politics, uh, of this moment
that we have a very divided society.
And while that division manifests in allsorts of different ways, the difference
between urban and rural communitiesstruck me as not only a huge gap, but
(08:18):
one that is quite easy to bridge, uh,just by traveling, just by moving.
And so, as someone who spent mostof my life, uh, living in the city,
I decided about eight years agothat I, I would be far happier, uh,
living on a farm, doing farm work.
And I'm grateful I made that choice.
I only wish I'd made it sooner.
Annmarie Hylton (08:39):
Yes, it seems to be, I guess, uh, a
trend for people who have, um.
I don't know.
I guess I'm gonna use this word and it's,uh, uh, but I'm using it a different way
and I'll explain, uh, I guess, uh, thepeople who have waken waken up, not woke.
Everyone, the people who have, uh,um, uh, awaken up, uh, into their you
(09:02):
know, I guess humanity in a sense, um,that they are looking at everything, I
guess, in their lives, um, holistically.
And I guess, um, this has become even morepopular, obviously, after we all spent
our time locked down in a pandemic, right?
Uh, we really had that time to youknow, uh, look at ourselves for years
(09:26):
and see what are, what are we doing?
Where am I going?
You know, uh, uh, what's,what's my, what's my purpose?
And so, um, this seems to be, I guess,uh, definitely, um, a trend I'm seeing
here in the US and I'm sure, um, uh,you've been seeing that in Canada as well.
Is that true?
Jesse Hirsh (09:44):
I mean, yes and no.
I, I think, uh, it, it was, I thinkthe pandemic is a very divisive event.
And I think to your point, I, Ithink quite frankly, you did give
the definition of woke that it doesmean to be awake and to be holistic.
Un unfortunately, the wordhas become weaponized.
(10:04):
Uh, and I don't claim to bewoke, but I do try to be aware
of what's happening around me.
I, I almost guiltily confessedthat I quite enjoyed the pandemic
'cause I was already on a farm andlife didn't really change for me.
And e everything sort of seemedto go really terrible for
everyone else, and I empathize.
(10:27):
But at the same time, Ithink what we have seen.
Is a rise of conspiracy, a rise ofdisinformation a movement against science.
And because I was already in a farmingcommunity, I was already in a rural
community, it was actually quite shockingto me to see how many farmers embraced
(10:48):
ideas that are, are, quite frankly,the opposite of farming, the opposite
of science, the opposite of having asustainable relationship with nature.
So it, it feels very discordant to me.
It feels a very.
Conflicted internally.
And I think in terms of our conversationtoday about the future of farming,
(11:09):
that may be a recurring thread ora recurring theme because we are,
uh, in a society of conflicts.
And I think one of the biggest conflictis people's relationship with nature.
You know, whether it's the food theyeat or whether it's where they live.
And to your point, I think alot of people in the pandemic
wanted to be closer to nature.
(11:30):
They didn't want to be locked up inan apartment building or, you know,
in a, a a, an urban environment wherethere isn't a lot of green space.
But I think a lot of people have forgottenthat after now that they are able to
go back into their regular routines.
So I'm curious personally as to whetherwe continue to move forward, how many more
(11:52):
people get into gardening, for example,or start striking up relationships with
farmers so that they're buying their foodmore direct instead of from the grocery.
And whether that continues, I, Ihope it does, but, uh, that's kind
of in the wait and see category.
Annmarie Hylton (12:09):
Yes.
And, and speaking of that, that leadsto the question kind of, do you feel or,
um, you know, experts are saying thatour food, uh, system is in, in danger.
And so since you're literally, um, punintended and not un intended on the
ground, um, would you say that, uh, areyou seeing that, that our food system is
(12:31):
in danger or is it something that's hypedup because we don't have, or I would say
majority of the people living in citiesand away from the farm don't have, um,
you know, uh, direct access to sea or,um, I guess to see it in, in person.
Is this something that we're being toldor do you actually see it on the farm?
Jesse Hirsh (12:52):
Well, I, I think paradoxically it's both.
On the one hand I think thedanger is underestimated.
I, I think it's in fact quitegreater than people realize.
Before I became a farmer and I wasvery much interested in climate
change and climate advocacy.
I met with a farmer who said,Hey, we don't need to worry
(13:13):
about the cities flooding.
We're all gonna starve way before then.
And I think people really don't under,uh, really don't appreciate how brittle
our food system is and how easy a, as wesaw in the pandemic with supply chains
breaking our food supply chains can easilybreak, eggs for example are, are starting
(13:34):
to become almost a luxury item because ofthe way in which avian influenza is, is
really making it difficult for traditionalpoultry producers to do their jobs.
So I, on the one hand, yes, it'sincredibly dangerous, but on the other
hand the solution's quite accessible.
I, when I was living in the city,I, I spent a year living in a
(13:56):
condo, a glass condo, and I grew atremendous amount of tomatoes and
peppers and other kind of vegetables.
And I calculated that if, you know, thecondo board, if they stipulated that every
south facing, or every or west facing unitthat got enough sun, had to grow a certain
(14:19):
quota of vegetables and then make thosevegetables available to the building, let
alone selling them to neighbors nearby.
They would easily produce enough foodto feed the building and then some.
And it's that attitude.
It's the idea that someoneelse is gonna grow my food is
(14:39):
I think, part of the problem.
And I think if we do start embracinggardening, if we do start embracing
a more cooperative approach to foodproduction, then it'll be really easy to
solve the challenges and dangers we face.
Unfortunately that's still theoretical.
That's still something that's onlyhappening in certain communities.
(15:01):
It's not happening at the scalenecessary to, to feed everybody.
Annmarie Hylton (15:06):
And Yes.
And you know what I, I, 'causeI was thinking of two, two
different things, right?
Uh, when you were, um, talking you know,having everyone, uh, I guess start to
participate I guess in their own uh, intheir own life in, uh, survival, their
own survival through, through food.
Um, like they used to, I guess, um, asthey would say in the olden days, right?
(15:30):
Um, if you, uh, uh, as they wouldsay, if you are weren't willing
to work, you don't eat right.
And so, you know, getting people, I guess,motivated to think about their own uh,
I guess substance and sustainabilityand and realize that they are.
I guess I have no better way to putit, responsible for themselves uh, as
(15:55):
they, as they, uh, should be you know,getting people to, uh, to take that up.
And, but then there's also, as youwere mentioning before, there's
this, uh, you know, push against thewhole, um, uh, kind of, um, science.
And I guess, you know, um, a littlebit of the, as we're gonna dive
into the, the technological aspect.
(16:17):
So I guess getting people to en embrace,it's, to me, I'm having a hard time, uh,
framing the question because I, it's likefarming itself is science to me, right?
So it's, it's, it's, it's hardfor me to imagine that people.
I guess they're just, they're just soout of touch of I guess who and what
(16:40):
we, we are, um, these days that theydon't realize that we are essentially
the planet, and the planet at us is us.
'cause that's how you're growing.
You know, you, you put food inyour mouth that's coming from
the ground and you know, then itrecycles, it recycles out of you.
Right.
Um, and so, and it's,it's a continuous cycle.
(17:00):
So I just, I don't know.
I guess, let me ask the question.
How do you think that we got here thatpeople became so disconnected from what
it is to be, part of the planet and human.
Jesse Hirsh (17:11):
I think the short answer is the industrial process, in part
because the industrial process andmechanization is inherently the
opposite of, you know, the word youused earlier, which is holistic.
I. It's designed on trying to breakdown and isolate each step of the
process without asking the question,what does this impact the whole, what
(17:36):
is this impact to the environment?
What is this impact to the future?
And that industrial, uh, logicfocuses primarily on growth,
on efficiency, on optimization.
And so you have a farming practice,which is based on doing everything
as large as you can, as heavily asyou can to get the biggest profits
(18:00):
you can, the biggest yields you can.
And there's no room to question itbecause the way in which farmers
are exploited like farmers.
On the one hand can be incrediblywealthy in the sense that they
have land and they have equipmentand they have access to capital.
(18:20):
But they're also highly exploitedin that all of the things they have
depend upon promises they've made toother people like banks and equipment
manufacturers and seed companies, orlo a a a food or, or meat distributors.
So they, they get locked into a logic.
They get locked into a system.
(18:43):
And the flip side to this is it'sfarming is not an easy industry to enter.
Like on the one hand we were talking abouthow gardening is really quite accessible.
Anyone can start gardening.
But farming is actuallyincredibly difficult to get into.
The cost of land is inflated.
(19:04):
It's incredibly expensive.
The cost of equipment, the cost of inputs,the cost of everything is inflated.
I've often heard farmers sort of describethat farming I is all about buying
retail and selling wholesale, whichis the opposite of any other business
where you buy wholesale and sell retail.
(19:24):
This is the inverse.
And so you, it's very difficultfor farmers to make any money.
And so consequently, mostfarmers, most people who are in
the industry were born there.
Or maybe they married in, but they havethe farm because their parents, their
grandparents, their great grandparents,maybe even their great-great grandparents
(19:47):
started in farming and they survivedall sorts of crises, all sorts of, uh,
shady situations, bad weather events.
And so that makes them a kind ofsmall sea conservative, a kind of,
if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
'cause that's how our parents did it.
That's how our grandparents did it.
So the industrial process of farming isreally kind of culturally baked in and.
(20:15):
Or I almost in a derogatory way,say some people are anti-science.
I don't necessarily mean thatthey're anti-technology, I just
mean that their vision of science.
It, it was back when doctors usedto prescribe cigarettes, when,
you know, our notion of say dieselexhaust was something good to inhale.
(20:38):
That science did once long ago.
Tell them those facts.
It just so happens that science isdynamic and constantly changing.
And if you're not learning and changingwith it, it's easy to think that it's good
to spray tons of pesticides on your land.
It's good to, uh, use lots of, uh,uh, expensive, uh, fertilizer, you
(21:02):
know, petroleum based fertilizer.
'cause it gets you better cropswithout thinking what it's doing
to your soil without thinking whatit's doing to your neighbor's soil.
And without thinking about, you know,the, the long-term sustainability
from a business perspective ofone's agricultural practices.
That's one of the biggest reasons thatwe're in the food crisis we're in,
(21:25):
because it's, it's the, the yield, thereturn that comes from the industrial
process is already diminishing and it,it, it's gonna continue to increase
in its rate of failing to return.
And that's gonna put a lot of pressureon an already weak and exploited
system, which could create a, a, a veryprecarious food security environment.
Annmarie Hylton (21:51):
Yes.
And so in that, you know, one of thethings, I'm gonna break it down a little
bit, is that, farmers that I'm comingfrom, uh, two parents that had, um,
that grew up on farms or from farms,even though, uh, different countries.
Um, so he won here in the US andwon, uh, abroad in, uh, Jamaica.
(22:13):
And so, uh, two different systems com,um, completely when it comes to, uh,
farming, but having that traditionof, how, uh, farms are pass to, um,
children and generations and thenhow things are done on the farm.
Part of it, I would say yes, for farmers.
There is, um, especially if you, uh, andgrowing up in a, a family of farmers,
(22:38):
there's, um, I. Uh, I guess there'sa, a pride of, this is our land and
this is how we've done things, right?
Because, maybe you go to, uh, thefarm, you know, uh, a few miles
down and , they may grow the sameproduct, but, um, it's a little bit
different because that's their stamp.
But staying in those traditions becauseit was their, their kind of family sealed.
(22:59):
So there's that.
That is, uh, I guess comesacross in I guess a lot of like
our traditional professions.
I would say similar to teachers, right?
Um.
And what I mean by that, like when,uh, most people that get into like a, a
teaching profession, they have an ideaof like, this is how I'm going to do
things to, you know, make my difference.
(23:22):
Um, and, you know, you get tunnelvision, um, because it is, uh, the
tradition that you want to follow.
But in the fact that , through the, Iguess past technologies mostly I would
say through, um, fertilizers and how tospeed up the process because a lot of
(23:42):
farmers, um, are, are put under pressureto be like, okay, you know, last week
you did 20 tomatoes, now we need 300.
So, let's get these, uh,these plants to produce more.
Um, but it's causing a lot of differentthings, some other things that
I've, uh, read about and I'm sure.
Um, this is, uh, definitely on your radar.
(24:03):
Um, there's a loss of, uh, the nutrition,uh, the nutritional value, right?
Um, that's getting affected.
There's, um, uh, some of the seeds that,um, that are being given, uh, specifically
I guess you would say the GMO seeds.
GM uh, o seeds are not reproducing.
So meaning that like if you plant thattomato, um, and then the, uh, tomato
(24:25):
matures and you go to eat it, and thenyou take those, uh, seeds of that tomato,
they are not then producing another tomatoplant because they become sterile because
of how they were, um, you know, treatedor, um, harvested or, or whatever else,
uh, was going on with, um, the seeds.
And so, of course that becomes,uh, problematic because of the.
(24:49):
The way that we used to farm, youknow, you would eat something,
take the seed, plant it, getanother one, and, uh, you go on.
Um, but because of all the, uh, chemicalslike you mentioned, uh, pro, uh,
petroleum, um, that they've been usingin farming, which is just like, you know,
ironic and not ironic, uh, literallypouring, uh, gasoline on our, our foods
(25:11):
or burning it up, uh, which is then, um,uh, burning and, and killing our soil.
So we have like a whole, uh, chainreaction that is, um, happening.
And so you have been focusing on, um,uh, bringing, um, these new technologies
or introducing technologies to, uh,the farming, um, industry or motivating
(25:35):
people to look at it differently, I guess.
How do you, I, I guess how do youstart getting these, uh, people to.
Think differently.
Jesse Hirsh (25:46):
Uh, I mean, quite frankly, you don't.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, I, I think there's areal difference between trying to
persuade people, which is increasingly,I think, futile versus providing
more sustainable alternatives.
And the secret to some of thenew farming practices that are
sustainable, that are in line withnature is, is they are more profitable.
(26:09):
They are more prosperous.
And, and that's fundamentally whata lot of farmers focus on, is they
are motivated by the economics.
You know, they're certainly motivated byfamily, they're motivated in many cases
by environmental stewardship, but theydo need to focus on the bottom line.
And that's where a lot of these practices,certainly when it comes to, uh, investing
(26:30):
in the soil quality, and, and that'swhere you get the better nutrients.
That's where you getthe better nutrition is.
It's really a reflection of the, not justbiodiversity, but bacterial health, the
extent to which there's, uh, the greaternumber and greater diversity of microbes
in the soil that then influences thenutritiousness as well as the, the yield
(26:53):
and the size of whatever it is you'regrowing and so it, it is approaching
farming from a holistic perspective.
I the technology piece for me is, isa bit of a Trojan horse in that it's
a way to, you know, use the new shinyobject as an opportunity to get people
(27:13):
thinking about new agricultural practices.
But it's also where my strengthas a futurist comes in.
'cause it's where I'm anticipating,for example, the role of robotics.
The role of ai, the role of technologyin, at, at the very least, fostering
a kind of new practice of precisionagriculture where you're, instead of using
(27:37):
pesticides, you're identifying the weeds,you're identifying the things on the
plants that you don't want to be growing,and you remove them by other meat.
And, and the industrial processof agriculture was partly a
response, but also partly acreation of the labor shortage
that has always played agriculture.
(27:59):
And, you know, on the one handwe talk about how people left
the country to go to the city.
Well, part of the reason they didthat was city jobs paid better so you
could make more money and potentiallylead an easier life working in a
factory or working in an office.
But historically agriculture,especially smaller operations,
(28:21):
have always had a labor problem.
It's why farm families would be larger,they'd have more kids 'cause they
needed more people to work there.
And, you know, they would incentivizethose kids by saying, Hey look,
you can have the farm when we die.
That's part of the reason we're gonnaexploit you for your entire life.
And you know, that model, uh,unfortunately or fortunately,
(28:42):
depending on where you stoodin the family, uh, broke down.
And so we still and continueto have a problem with how do
we do all the work on the farm?
And that's where robots on some levelsare kind of appealing and they have a nice
crossover in that they can also enablemore sustainable practices, uh, more soil
(29:03):
centric practices, but they also enablea greater understanding of the farm.
It allows the farmer tounderstand their soil.
It allows 'em tounderstand their livestock.
It allows 'em to understand their crops.
So instead of taking the industrialapproach, which is, you know, kind
of the, uh, killing a mosquito with anuclear bomb, or you taking a really
(29:27):
blunt object approach, when a moresurgical approach, a more precision
approach, is both environmentallysustainable, but often more profitable.
So technology allows forthe greater feedback loop.
It makes it easier for the farmerto understand what they're doing,
to see the impact of the choicesthey make, and therefore make.
(29:48):
Perhaps better choices, more prosperouschoices, more sustainable choices.
And that's where I sort of say it's abit of a Trojan horse, that if you look
at the kind of narrative of technologythat the industry is currently using,
it's really about sustaining theindustrial model, uh, of allowing the
industrial model to get even larger.
(30:09):
And dare I say it even more sinister, butI actually think there's an opportunity
to do the opposite, to use the technologyto empower smaller farmers and to,
uh, empower a much more sustainableapproach to agriculture in general.
Annmarie Hylton (30:25):
Yes.
I started, um, envisioning, 'causeI, I think in pictures and it
was something actually I had,uh, an article that I hadn't.
Uh, red and they were, um, testing kindof a, I don't know what the name of the
robot was, but essentially they werelike, uh, making, uh, using like hose
and making rose, uh, to start planting.
Um, and so, you know, uh, I, I love theapproach of using the, uh, innovation and
(30:51):
especially now because it seems, you know,um, uh, in our, our new political climate
here in the US where, um, many people aregetting deported and, um, a lot of them
were, uh, people who were working on, onfarms that this may be something that we,
we need to move on rather quickly, um, inbringing in these innovative, uh, ideas,
(31:16):
but then also keeping it ho holistic.
So being able to, um, youknow, not throw out, um.
Uh, you know, a move to produce, uh, uh,more, but using it in a healthier way.
So just rethinking how we mergeour two, I guess you would say
two different worlds, right?
Our world of technology withour old ways and enhance it to
(31:39):
make it even a, a better world.
Um, that's thinking about us as, uh,human beings and what we need from
a, uh, a nutrient value, um, uh,a sustainability value in regards
to, uh, you know, the planet.
Making sure that, um, know, uh, youknow, that used to be that you were
(32:00):
supposed to like, uh, rotate yourcrops so that you didn't you know, burn
out the soil and put nutrients back.
And, uh, having that technology, Idon't know if they have, uh, such
robots already invented that would belike, you know, planting and then, um.
Tells you like, oh, you know, don'tput a seed in, uh, this, uh, area
of soil because, you know, these,uh, beans are not going to grow.
(32:23):
Instead, it's time to, you know, um, throwin some, uh, strawberries or something.
I'm making that up not knowing likewhat would be the, the change of
course in the soil, but, um, havingthat ability that we can then, um, you
know, start thinking of ourselves in adifferent, healthier, in a healthier way.
(32:44):
Now, as you were mentioning before,that you can't necessarily, you know,
change how people are, are thinking.
But if you were, I guess, goingto, I guess on, on your farm,
start introducing or, uh, gettingpeople to take on these things.
Should we just start implementinglike, just, uh, classes worldwide?
(33:06):
Do you think, uh, like little by littleto start opening, um, this up to people
or do you think that, um, it needsto be just a radical change and just
say, okay, look everyone, we're gonna,you know, we have 40 harvest left.
If you guys wanna be aroundand not fighting for an apple.
Um, you know, it's, uh,it's, it's now or never.
Jesse Hirsh (33:29):
I, I mean, to my earlier point about how accessible farming as
an industry is it's kind of equivalentto policing in the sense that there's a
long line of people who wanna do the joband there's no reason for us to tolerate
the idiots who are currently doing it.
And that's not to disparage farmers.
Whereas I'm absolutely happy todisparage law enforcement officers.
(33:52):
I think the solution here is to makeit easier for people to become farmers.
You don't need to try to change minds.
The, the people who are going aboutit the old way are gonna fail.
And unfortunately we have asystem, especially in the United
States where we subsidize failure.
Right.
We, we don't allow the big businessesthat control much of the industry to fail
(34:16):
when they have fundamentally been failing.
When instead, we should make it easierfor new people who wanna farm to become
farmers, because those are the oneswho are gonna do the new practices.
Those are the ones who are, who arelearning, who are gardening, who are
really embracing the bleeding edge ofscientific and technological research.
(34:39):
And to your point about therobots, they already exist.
I mean, there are, are tons andtons of agricultural robots.
Uh, every year there's a couple of events,one in Europe, one in America that is
dedicated to agricultural robotics andfeature all sorts of, from small end
(34:59):
to high end, uh, uh, farming robots.
Uh, again, which are used notjust for sustainable practices.
Many of them really are designedto, to e enable the industrial
practices that, that are kind ofproblematic, but are still how we eat.
So a lot of the people, to playdevil's advocate who work in that
industry would say, well, we're allgonna starve without their practices.
(35:23):
But I believe we need way minute.
We need more farmers, new farmers,creative farmers, farmers who have
new ideas, who have ideas thatyou and I could never imagine.
And, you know, uh, given theopportunity would find really in
innovative, sustainable ways to workwith nature rather than against it.
(35:43):
I don't think the issuehere is classrooms.
I, I think.
As an aside, their current model ofeducation is also broken and obsolete.
I, I think there's a lot of people outthere who are eager to teach themselves,
who are eager to spend every day learning.
'cause that's what farming is,that's what farming should be.
That that's what surviving climate changeis is really about embracing and fostering
(36:08):
a kind of cur curiosity and innovation,which there are so many people in this
world who would kill for the opportunityto farm, who would love to be able to
apply more sustainable practices uh,to, to how and where they grow food.
It's the cost of entrythat is so prohibitive.
(36:31):
So if I were to articulate it in theform of a policy it would be subsidizing
the entry of new farmers into themarket rather than subsidizing existing
farmers who have bad practices andwho are holding onto land that's been
in their generation for families.
'cause it's very emotional for them.
But if you know, we are to accept thatfood is a business, and I'm not saying
(36:55):
it should be, but if we were to acceptthat food is a business, then we should
allow new entrants into the market andthose new entrants will bring with them
new technology and new methodologies.
Annmarie Hylton (37:09):
Yes, I'm, I'm for it.
I guess I would say I'm for it.
I'm, I know a lot of people, they Ihave a theory, you know, it hasn't,
um, been proven of course, 100%,but I have a, a theory that, um,
what's really, really, really wrongon the planet is coming directly.
It's, uh, once again puns.
(37:29):
I, I like to be a little bit,uh, silly and, and, and kooky.
Um, but, uh, at the root of it,I believe it is, um, all these
things that we're experiencing insociety, I believe we're coming from
the ground and what we're eating.
I believe that, um, that people arenot, uh, you know, as mentally you know,
(37:50):
uh, as strong as they used to be andphysically as strong as they used to
be, um, uh, because I believe everythingthat is, is coming from the ground and
that it is, it's causing all these,uh, unbelievable things that we haven't
seen before, um, in society becauseit's coming straight from the ground.
That's what I, you know, that's mytheory, um, that, uh, that that's why
(38:14):
we have to go back and really lookabout, um, what's getting into us.
Like as the, the saying says,you are what you eat, right?
Um, so that's my theory about whywe've, uh, come into, uh, uh, uh, chaos.
Um, because I think a majority ofthe people are not getting, um, what
(38:34):
they really need from the ground.
Like I said, it might befarfetched, but that's what I think.
Jesse Hirsh (38:39):
I, I, I don't think it's farfetched, but
I would argue the opposite.
That the problem is with our politicsand our political leaders, uh, and
that if we had better politicalleaders, we'd be eating better food.
Annmarie Hylton (38:51):
This is true.
'cause they would probablycare a little bit more about
what's going on in the ground.
Well, but
Jesse Hirsh (38:58):
also
Annmarie Hylton (38:58):
to
Jesse Hirsh (38:58):
recognize that all industries are products of their regulations, right?
Society is a product ofits laws or lack thereof.
And so, the agricultural sector,uh, is very powerful when it
comes to lobbying is very powerfulwhen it comes to legislation.
So we, I don't wanna blame consumersfor eating the food that they,
(39:21):
food they eat, especially if theydon't have a lot of money and
they're buying food that's cheap.
Uh, we can legitimately, as many peoplelove to do, blame our politicians.
Because our food system, uh, like many ofour systems, like our response to climate
change is not quote unquote natural.
It's not automatic, it's not accidental.
(39:43):
It's a byproduct of politics.
And so, uh, politics is reallythe place to make any changes to
improve our diet or our wellbeing.
Annmarie Hylton (39:53):
Yes.
And right now I think we are in a periodof, um, what I would say, uh, a uh,
time of deep internal work is needed.
I think, um, uh, definitely here inthe us as we see, uh, there's a lot
of, um, I'll just call it chaos 'causeI don't know what else to say anymore.
Um, I'll just, uh, um, yeah, so I thinkit's a time of definitely deep internal I.
(40:19):
You know, self-examination is needed andto decide, like, um, where are we going?
Um, as, uh, as, uh, people,what do we value anymore?
Do we, do we value ourselves?
Do we value our lives?
Um, do we value our health?
You know, do we value thefuture, essentially, right?
(40:41):
Do we value the future?
Uh, because it seems that, uh, youknow, we have this thing of we just
live, live for now, and then, andthen we, uh, stop and they're like,
oh, we can't believe that happened.
Well, how can we believe,not believe that happened?
Jesse Hirsh (40:58):
And this is why I think gardening is really powerful, because
if your food grows, you can ask your,you can sort of say to yourself,
well, I know how that happened.
And if the food dies, then you couldsay, well, how did that happen?
Oh, I didn't take care of it.
Oh, I didn't water it.
Oh, I didn't put the effort in.
(41:19):
And it's that relationship with time.
And you earlier alluded to responsibility.
Although, although I don't think it'spersonal responsibility, I think it's
collective responsibility becausewhat I love about living with animals
is I am responsible not for them.
I'm responsible to them.
(41:40):
I have to feed them.
If I don't feed them, they willbe hungry, they could get sick.
So I'm responsible to them inthe sense that if I do feed them.
Well, then they love me andthey enjoy hanging out with me.
And that brings me happinessand that brings me joy.
So there's a much more, to your point,A, a relationship with the long term,
(42:02):
a relationship with consequences, arelationship with responsibility that
I think whether you have pets, whetheryou have a garden, or whether you just
have houseplant, I think that that kindof work is really valuable to helping
us feel that we can make a difference.
That even the small action ofwatering a plant could result in
(42:25):
something that tastes really good andmakes us feel nourished and happy.
So that to me is, is, is a, areal potential for empowerment,
especially on the community level.
Annmarie Hylton (42:37):
Yeah.
And I was just thinking, you know,uh, we, when you were saying about
responsibility, it re, you know,it reminds me of like our, our
first job and I think we just, uh.
We forgot it or we got scared,or or who knows, uh, a bunch of
other, um, things came into effect.
But our first job is to bestewards of, of the planet.
(42:59):
And I think, you know, um, youknow, whether you look at it from
a, uh, you know, logical or a, um,you know, religious standpoint,
um, that is our, our main.
You know, our main, our main job.
And for some reason, you know,um, I know a, a lot of different
reasons, but we just, we, we ranaway from that responsibility.
(43:22):
And now as, like I was saying, andnow we have to face the consequences
and we're like, oh my gosh.
You know, and we want to allpoint a billion fingers in
all different directions.
But, um, it's time to, uh, in my opinion,quits, pointing the fingers and get our
hands dirty and get the, and get digging.
(43:42):
And get digging.
Um, in, uh, closing a little bit, Iwanted to, um, ask you a, a few things
about, uh, to give some insight.
Uh, I'm gonna give you a, acouple just technical, uh,
quiz questions a little bit.
I. I guess here's one.
Um, how do you see, uh, geneticengineering and, uh, CRISPR technology
(44:05):
transferring food production and,uh, crop resilience in the future?
Jesse Hirsh (44:11):
I, it's a kind of double-edged sword.
I mean, on the one hand, it has theopportunity to give us a greater
understanding a greater awareness of whycertain crops, certain animals, certain
breeds, certain species flourish theway they do or suffer the way they do.
And while we are gonna face a lot ofchallenges in terms of uh, a volatile
(44:35):
climate cycle in terms of sometimeswetter summers, uh, or drier parts
of the seasons in terms of floodsand droughts and extreme heat.
So there is certainly a role to thatlevel of genetic hacking to make
some of our crops, make some of ouranimals a little more resistant.
(44:57):
But the danger is that if it becomes atool for short-term gain at the expense
of kind of long-term sensibilities.
Then we, we could bemaking the situation worse.
And it, it goes into the,that adage of with great power
comes great responsibility.
And, and once we enter theworld of genetics and gene
(45:19):
hacking, that is a lot of power.
So I, I think it is helpful whenit comes to understanding, when it
comes to science, when it comes toappreciating our relationship with nature.
But I think if we retain a positionof arrogance, if we retain a position
of superiority, that we can usethese tools to one up or best nature,
(45:45):
then, uh, that unfortunately isgonna lead to negative consequences.
Annmarie Hylton (45:50):
Yes.
Um, I think, you know, um, it reminds melike the, uh, stepping a little bit away
from farming, but uh, it's like these,um, mod uh, modified, uh, foods or food.
Um, have you heard of things like,uh, I'm sure you've heard of like
you can create, uh, food out of, uh,different, uh, proteins in the air.
Have you heard of the airprotein of the making food?
(46:12):
Like, uh, out of, um,I guess non-food items.
Um, so I, I mean, I know as afarmer you're probably like, no,
no, well eat, eat it, don't eat it.
Everything.
Yeah.
Jesse Hirsh (46:25):
On the contrary, everything gets lost in translation.
Mm-hmm.
Because you know, when you hear peoplesay, oh, I don't want to eat that food.
You know, it's got chemicals.
Well, well, everythingis made of chemicals.
Like all food is chemicals,water is hydrogen and oxygen.
And farming as a practice or aslike a scientific methodology,
(46:47):
it's been messing with nature forhundreds and hundreds of years.
Some of those experiments werereally good, some of those
experiments were not so good.
So I I it none of this is clear cut.
And I think the larger issue is kind, ifwe were to use a rule, it would be local.
(47:08):
And I say this in the sense of evenif the food is produced in a quasi
synthetic or quasi artificial manner,if the ingredients of that food comes
from local soil, comes from localanimals, comes from local, whatever.
(47:28):
Then that is fundamentallythe best thing for our health.
It's the eating food that is notconnected to where we live, where we
breathe, and the microbes and all theviruses and bacteria that make us up.
That's where things get a little sketchy.
But there is now, thanks totechnology, a lot of gimmicks,
(47:51):
a lot of wild ideas as possible.
Some of these wild ideasmay actually feed humanity.
So that's where I'm always, on the onehand, cautious and skeptical about.
I don't know.
But on the other hand, I'm like,well, maybe, maybe there is some
young person now who's got some crazyidea that's gonna radically increase
(48:11):
the food supply as we know it.
So that, that's where I think it the,the moral here is if you don't have a
few farmers as friends, you ought to.
Because even if you don't agreewith their politics, you're still
gonna learn from them in termsof where your food comes from and
(48:32):
how to eat as healthy as possible.
'cause no one actually has the answer.
But the more people you talk to, themore likely you're able to make up your
mind in a way that's gonna benefit you.
Annmarie Hylton (48:45):
Yes.
And one more technical one, which kind oflayers on this one, and in a way you've
answered it a bit, um, but, um, how doyou see, uh, blockchain technology, um,
reshaping the agricultural supply andenhancing transparency, traceability
and trust between farmers and consumers?
Because one of the biggest thingsis I'm in California, so, uh, we're
(49:08):
always like, where did this come from?
And, you know, we have our,our labels on our food.
Um, we wanna know the nutrients.
California is, um, you know, maybe,uh, an outlier because, you know, in
California we're always thinking aboutoh, is this, uh, what we're eating?
Um, you know, is this,uh, almonds from here?
And there we're a little bitmore, um, I would say particular.
(49:32):
So, we're maybe the,yeah, we're the outliers.
Outliers are a little bit, uh, notyour typical, I guess you would say.
Jesse Hirsh (49:40):
I think the technology or the desire for traceability and
transparency in the food systemis gonna increase err radically.
I, I think even consumers today who arecontent to be completely oblivious as
to where their food comes from, I thinkthey are also gonna start to expect it.
But more importantly, it's theproducers and the distributors who
(50:02):
are gonna demand for that levelof transparency and traceability.
And maybe five years ago, or even 10years ago, I think blockchain was a,
a viable candidate to play that role.
But I'm not sure it's legitimate anymore.
And I think there is a growing conconstituency within the technology
(50:25):
world who feel that blockchain is,is just a scam, a complete, and.
Total catastrophe.
Uh, so I, I don't think it's really gonnaget the consensus or the credibility
required in in, in a matter of trust.
'cause that is fundamentally whatwe're talking about is the system
(50:46):
of transparency and traceabilityis designed to foster greater
trust of the food supply system.
And I think that inherentlydisqualifies blockchain and all
associated technologies presently.
But I do think that there, there arecurrently other technologies that
are competing to provide this roleand are, uh, aspiring to be a kind
(51:10):
of infrastructure when it comes tofood security and food traceability.
And, and I think it's, uh, uh, generallysomething that'll be beneficial
for farmers and consumers alike.
But I, I don't think it'll be blockchain.
And if it is blockchain,it'll be an absolute disaster.
Annmarie Hylton (51:29):
Now a little bit of a global question because, you know, we've
been talking about, um, technology andlooking, um, at food in the US and, um,
Canada now for developing countries.
You know, developing countries, uh, areexperiencing, you know, multiple range
of, uh, you know, different experiences.
Um, some of them, uh,depending on, you know.
(51:52):
Um, how bad the situation is,uh, may be, uh, reliant on, uh,
GMO seeds being sent to them.
Um, I had, um, some, uh, people, um,that I, uh, worked on a couple projects
with in like, uh, east, um, Africa,and, um, uh, talking about, uh, you
know, soil burnout and things like that.
(52:15):
Um, so how, I guess, uh, in theseregions that you know, have not been,
uh, you know, shared technology hasnot necessarily been, um, shared,
but desperately need to see a changebecause they've had, uh, populations
there for, hundreds if not, uh, youknow, thousands of millions of years.
Um, how.
(52:37):
I guess, how do we, um, start introducingthese types of regions to this technology?
Or how does this technology,um, get introduced to them so
that they can get out of thesituations of, um, you know, famine?
Jesse Hirsh (52:51):
So, I, I have a lot of difficulties with
how you frame that question.
Okay.
Uh, in part because it enables a kindof technological colonialism that I
think none of those countries desire.
Mm-hmm.
I think again, the state of thefood security system globally is a
consequence of politics and economics.
(53:14):
Not so much technology andcertainly in a lot of, again,
I think developing countries isitself a kind of political phrase.
So I'll say in a lot of countriesthat are not North American, European,
uh, especially in South America,but especially in Africa, there is
(53:34):
tremendous technological innovation.
And the kinds of technology,the kinds of tools that they are
using are incredibly advanced.
I, I would argue in many cases,more advanced than a lot of farmers
are using here in North America.
Uh, part of the geopolitical dynamicsof this, of course, is China.
(53:56):
China is one of the world's leadingtechnology manufacturers globally,
and they create a lot of agriculturaltechnology, especially drones.
And the role of drones in agriculture,especially Chinese drones in agriculture,
has been, uh, quite revolutionary.
(54:18):
So a lot of this technologyis available in what's often
referred to as the global south.
Uh, the larger issues for those farmersare more like access to markets, right?
And ability to get, uh, properprices or collective bargain,
uh, uh, for their crops.
(54:38):
But then of course the otherissue is land ownership.
Uh, uh, land ownership here in NorthAmerica is a huge obstacle to agriculture.
Land ownership in the global south is alsoa huge obstacle because of the colonial
past, because of the political past.
As much as technology can play a verypowerful role in making food cheaper
(54:59):
and making food safer, and making therole of farming more sustainable and
happy it's really about accessibilityto the industry and not so much about
accessibility to the technology.
Because a flip side to this is there isa lot of free and open source technology
that is applied to agriculture, bothin terms of farming robots, but in
(55:22):
terms of some of the internet ofthings and some of the other kind of
technological applications, even ai.
You know, really the issue withfarming has always been, and will
probably always be access to land.
Uh, not so much access to technology.
And then once you have access toland, access to collective projects
(55:43):
like irrigation, like solar power,like water rationing you know, the,
these are again, all political issues,not so much technological issues.
And that's where I, I think it'sworth pointing out that there's no
such thing as a neutral technology.
You know, technologies themselvesare, are very political.
(56:04):
That's where, you know, one ofthe underlying I think, visions
of farming that we've been talkingabout today has been industrial
farming versus sustainable farming.
Well, the industrial farming modelis big tractors and big combines.
Well, what if in the sustainable farmingmodel you got little robots that,
(56:24):
you know, don't have the, the sameimpact on the soil, don't require the
same amount of diesel fuel or energyconsumption, but you can have way more
of them and they can do many tasksand allow those tasks to be done in
coordination and through networking.
Again, these are models that arebeing tried by farmers that are being
(56:45):
experimented really around the world.
It, it's just, uh, uh, it's somethingmost people just don't pay attention
to because they take for grantedwhere their food comes from.
Annmarie Hylton (56:57):
Yes.
And so, um.
I, you know, I, I wanted to make surethat we touched a little bit on, um,
the global, um, market of farming.
Um, because, you know, we, wedefinitely see that, um, it's,
uh, it's different in each region.
Not, uh, you know, farmingand growing itself.
(57:18):
But, um, yes, exactly, um, havingaccess to, um, these technologies
so that the difference can be madeand then they can get, uh, you
know, the food that is needed.
And then of course, you know, as the otherthing is that people always think that
there's not enough food in the world, butthere is, it's just about distribution.
(57:38):
So same thing.
And then for I guess myclosing question to you.
How would, I guess, uh, your everydayperson, I guess, um, start to, uh,
I guess move into a new, I guess anew way of thinking about farming
and how do we start, uh, I guessjust, uh, pushing ourselves to where
(58:04):
we need to be, or I guess maybe Ishould ask, where do you think that
we need to be in order to be okay.
Five years from now?
And that's a big question.
I'm, and I, I know I always call these mykind of, um, uh, beauty passion questions
because it's hard to, hard to predict.
Jesse Hirsh (58:23):
I think it's important to recognize that there's no such
thing as individuals, and that if wewere individuals, we would starve.
Uh, we certainly experience life asindividuals, but we fundamentally live
in community, and the only way that we'reable to feed is by helping each other.
So on the one hand, I encourage peopleto garden, and if gardening is not your
(58:46):
thing, help someone else who has a garden.
Ask them what help they need, whatwork they could do, or just chat with
them about their garden so that theyhave time to talk about it and feel as
if they're doing something valuable.
If, if you wanna level up beyondthat, uh, make friends with a farmer.
And thanks to the technology ofsocial media, there are now a
(59:07):
lot of farmers who are online.
Who are on YouTube, who are on Instagram,who are on TikTok, who have their own
websites and they wanna be your friend.
They wanna connect with peoplewho eat their food or who wanna
learn how their food is produced.
And it's that kind of directlearning that I think benefits not
just the people who eat the food,it benefits the farmers as well.
(59:29):
'cause they get into a kind ofconversation, uh, with their
community, with their consumers.
So I, I think it's important to, to bemore active in understanding where your
food comes from, but more importantly, toput labor into where your food comes from.
And finally, for a lot of people, thatmeans spending more time making your food.
(59:50):
It, I think maybe we take forgranted how easy it is to buy food
that's finished, that's alreadyprepared, rather than putting in
labor and joy into making your food.
It, it doesn't have to be complicated.
You don't need to make anything fancy,but there is a satisfaction, there is a
joy in eating food you've made, let aloneeating food that you've grown and made.
(01:00:15):
So I, I think that kind of uh,food for the soul, that kind of
healing practice is, is somethingeveryone can benefit from.
Annmarie Hylton (01:00:23):
I love how you call it Food for the Soul, you know, um,
bringing back, uh, when we go back to,uh, I guess farming was about community.
So perfect response ifyou have, uh, I guess, um.
If you have, uh, I guess onething, this is a fun question.
Um, I wanted to ask you ifyou have one thing that you
(01:00:46):
love, uh, uh, love planting.
Um, what would you say issomething that you love to plant
Jesse Hirsh (01:00:52):
jalapenos
Annmarie Hylton (01:00:54):
and why?
I.
Jesse Hirsh (01:00:55):
I love to eat them.
Annmarie Hylton (01:00:57):
You, you just eat them plain, or do you put
them in things or all of them?
Jesse Hirsh (01:01:01):
I use them all of the above.
I, I, I make hot sauces.
I eat them plain.
I cook them as parts of other foods.
I make other peppers, uhhuh.
But jalapenos are kind of the staplein part because I live fairly north
and they are easier to grow at myclimate compared to other peppers.
Annmarie Hylton (01:01:19):
Okay.
It seems that you should, uh, you know, Iguess, uh, uh, become a Californian then.
Jesse Hirsh (01:01:25):
I, I, I would, except, you know, you guys don't
have a lot of water and you needwater for a lot of these things.
Yes, we did have that.
And I, I happen to live in a verywater rich, uh, part of the world.
Annmarie Hylton (01:01:37):
So you wanna make sure that, uh, that uh, you know, you can,
you can still, uh, drink, survive, andhave some other stuff as we're, um, yeah.
Unfortunately always,uh, burning down here.
But it is still beautiful
no doubt.
Uh, thank you Jesse, foryour time and insight.
To learn more about JesseHirsh, go to jesse hirsh.com.
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem, or
(01:02:00):
wanna change minds contact project, goodwork at Project Good, dot work to start
Your Project of Change today, subscribeto our mailing list at project good org
slash subscribe to get our episodes andblog articles sent to you each month.
To our listeners, thanks fortuning in to Project Good.
We're focused on what matters.
Hello and welcome to the Project Good podcast.
(00:02):
I'm your host, Annmarie Hylton.
Project Good is a social impact podcast,interviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is toinspire people and organizations
to develop a mindset that canmove others to positive action.
(00:22):
Regarding the complex social issuesfacing people and the planet, for April,
we're focusing on the future of farming.
How did that apple, orange,or steak arrive on your plate?
It is increasingly becomingimportant and costly.
Farming remains vital for feeding theworld, supporting economies, preserving
the environment, and sustaining societies.
(00:45):
At its core, farming provides foodthat sustains the global population.
Despite advancements in technologyand industry, we are still.
Relying on agricultural practicesto produce crops, livestock,
and other food products.
Without farming, we would not have theresources to feed billions of people.
Agriculture is a significantdriver of many economies,
(01:07):
especially in developing countries.
It provides livelihoods for millionsof people from small scale farmers to
large scale agricultural enterprises.
In more industrialized countries,farming out contributes to
employment and overall economies.
Farming plays an essential rolein land management and ecosystems.
(01:27):
Sustainable farming practicescan help preserve biodiversity,
soil health, and water quality.
It also has the potentialto combat climate change.
Modern farming has becomingincreasingly high tech with
innovations in crop genetics,automation, precision agriculture.
This allows farmers to increaseproductivity, reduce waste, address
(01:48):
challenges like climate change or foodinsecurity in more sustainable ways.
Today I have the pleasure of interviewingJesse Hirsh, who's a futurist, speaker,
consultant, and goat herd who bringsan outside perspective operating from
his farm in rural eastern Ontario.
Yet it's no ordinary farm wired withhigh speed fiber optic internet.
(02:08):
The Academy of the Impossible engagesin a wide variety and range of research
regarding arch, um, agriculture, media,technology, and culture with almost
30 years of professional experience.
Jesse Hirsh is a broadcaster, researcher,public speaker and internet evangelist
in taunt Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
(02:29):
He's appeared on CBS radio and has aweekly spot on CBC News World where
he explains and analyzes trendsand developments in technology.
He co-hosts an interface show onomni television called 3D Dialogue.
Jesse has an infectious energy that liftsspirits and enables creative thinking.
(02:49):
He's always learning, sharing,and helping others do the same.
Let's get into the interview.
Many experts believe that the modern foodsystems are facing significant challenges.
(03:10):
While our agricultural practices and foodproduction have advanced dramatically
over the years, several factors areputting modern food systems at risk.
Some of the key reasons are climatechange, soil erosion, and loss of
fertility, biodiversity, food insecurity,supply change, vulnerabilities, water
scarcity, inefficiency, and waste,social and economic inequality.
(03:32):
Jesse Hirsh has taken a personalresponsibility in his life of
blending farming and technology, andwill be giving us insight into how
the world of farming is changing.
Welcome, Jesse.
Hi.
Hi, uh, it's a pleasureto have you on today.
I want to ask kind of a fun questionbefore we get into the interview, um, and
(03:53):
you know, and also because I was lookingat some of your, uh, pictures in preparing
for this interview why goat herding?
Jesse Hirsh (04:02):
Uh, goats are fantastic animals.
Uh, they're close friendsof mine, I'm happy to say.
And their personality, I think notonly reflects my own, but inspires
me as a human, as a goat herd to you.
You know, wake up every day and hang outwith them and have good times with them.
And, you know, there's a lotof ways to describe farmers.
(04:25):
There's a lot of ways to describepeople who ha while having the
option of living in the city.
Consciously choose to live closerto nature and live with animals.
And while I have lots of differentanimals, uh, both in our herd and
in our flock goats are the onesI think I identify with most.
So that's why the phrase goat herd.
(04:46):
Most people are morefamiliar with shepherd.
But goat herd I is equally valid,perhaps ancient phrase that I quite
like to associate myself with.
Annmarie Hylton (04:58):
Yes.
I haven't been a shepherdor a goat herder.
Um, but I don't know, I think maybegoats are easier than sheep or, um, I'm
just, , basing this on, looking at theanimals, uh, you know, sheep always seen
um, docile and a little bit clueless.
And, and goats are out to, uh, go getthat food or, you know, out to explore.
(05:19):
So totally different.
Jesse Hirsh (05:21):
Well, and, and to your point, goats are incredibly intelligent
and incredibly disobedient in that if youthink about them as a model of leadership,
they will only do what they want to do.
And you not only have to understand whatit is they want to do, you have to align
your interest with their interests.
(05:42):
And so I, I think, uh, th thiskind of anti-authoritarian animal
I is something I. That mostpeople don't think can be herded.
Most people don't thinkthey can be controlled.
And in fact, a lot of farmersbail on raising goats because
they are so difficult to contain.
They're great at escaping, they're greatat climbing and getting over fences.
(06:04):
So it, it, it's a bit of a humblebrag to say that you're a goat herd.
'cause it says that, you know,while herding cats is one level
of difficulty, herding goatsis an entirely different feat.
Annmarie Hylton (06:18):
Yeah.
When you were talking about goatsclimbing, it, it reminded me of, uh,
seeing, uh, goats, um, and treason Africa.
Hanging out like their leaves.
But here they are goats.
That was, very, um, interesting howyou, uh, decided to , take that up,
uh, considering your, your background,but also I think, it's, uh, giving
you kind of a, a different , I guess,inspiration of education because you're
(06:41):
dealing with things that are, you know,I guess people and, uh, life and the
planet, which is not controllable.
So I guess it's, uh, it gives youkind of that feeling like, you know,
you could only control so much.
And so, speaking of that now, um, andgoing into a little bit about farming.
(07:02):
I guess how did you, or why, I guesslet's start with the, why did you decide
to pick up farming in the first place?
Jesse Hirsh (07:09):
I mean, I was a futurist before I was a farmer, and as a futurist,
part of what you're asked, tasked to dois really think about what's coming next.
And most of the time you'redoing that for clients.
So you're doing that tohelp them anticipate their
future rather than your own.
But the more that I connected thedots, the more I wanted to be in
(07:32):
control of my own food supply.
The more that I wanted to be closer tonature, the more that I wanted to be
outside of cities when it comes to bothmanaging my own quality of life, but also
feeling like I had agency feeling like Ihad, uh, the ability to make a difference.
I, albeit maybe a small one.
(07:53):
And, finally, the other aspect tothat was recognizing how much the
urban, rural divide really definesour politics, uh, of this moment
that we have a very divided society.
And while that division manifests in allsorts of different ways, the difference
between urban and rural communitiesstruck me as not only a huge gap, but
(08:18):
one that is quite easy to bridge, uh,just by traveling, just by moving.
And so, as someone who spent mostof my life, uh, living in the city,
I decided about eight years agothat I, I would be far happier, uh,
living on a farm, doing farm work.
And I'm grateful I made that choice.
I only wish I'd made it sooner.
Annmarie Hylton (08:39):
Yes, it seems to be, I guess, uh, a
trend for people who have, um.
I don't know.
I guess I'm gonna use this word and it's,uh, uh, but I'm using it a different way
and I'll explain, uh, I guess, uh, thepeople who have waken waken up, not woke.
Everyone, the people who have, uh,um, uh, awaken up, uh, into their you
(09:02):
know, I guess humanity in a sense, um,that they are looking at everything, I
guess, in their lives, um, holistically.
And I guess, um, this has become even morepopular, obviously, after we all spent
our time locked down in a pandemic, right?
Uh, we really had that time to youknow, uh, look at ourselves for years
(09:26):
and see what are, what are we doing?
Where am I going?
You know, uh, uh, what's,what's my, what's my purpose?
And so, um, this seems to be, I guess,uh, definitely, um, a trend I'm seeing
here in the US and I'm sure, um, uh,you've been seeing that in Canada as well.
Is that true?
Jesse Hirsh (09:44):
I mean, yes and no.
I, I think, uh, it, it was, I thinkthe pandemic is a very divisive event.
And I think to your point, I, Ithink quite frankly, you did give
the definition of woke that it doesmean to be awake and to be holistic.
Un unfortunately, the wordhas become weaponized.
(10:04):
Uh, and I don't claim to bewoke, but I do try to be aware
of what's happening around me.
I, I almost guiltily confessedthat I quite enjoyed the pandemic
'cause I was already on a farm andlife didn't really change for me.
And e everything sort of seemedto go really terrible for
everyone else, and I empathize.
(10:27):
But at the same time, Ithink what we have seen.
Is a rise of conspiracy, a rise ofdisinformation a movement against science.
And because I was already in a farmingcommunity, I was already in a rural
community, it was actually quite shockingto me to see how many farmers embraced
(10:48):
ideas that are, are, quite frankly,the opposite of farming, the opposite
of science, the opposite of having asustainable relationship with nature.
So it, it feels very discordant to me.
It feels a very.
Conflicted internally.
And I think in terms of our conversationtoday about the future of farming,
(11:09):
that may be a recurring thread ora recurring theme because we are,
uh, in a society of conflicts.
And I think one of the biggest conflictis people's relationship with nature.
You know, whether it's the food theyeat or whether it's where they live.
And to your point, I think alot of people in the pandemic
wanted to be closer to nature.
(11:30):
They didn't want to be locked up inan apartment building or, you know,
in a, a a, an urban environment wherethere isn't a lot of green space.
But I think a lot of people have forgottenthat after now that they are able to
go back into their regular routines.
So I'm curious personally as to whetherwe continue to move forward, how many more
(11:52):
people get into gardening, for example,or start striking up relationships with
farmers so that they're buying their foodmore direct instead of from the grocery.
And whether that continues, I, Ihope it does, but, uh, that's kind
of in the wait and see category.
Annmarie Hylton (12:09):
Yes.
And, and speaking of that, that leadsto the question kind of, do you feel or,
um, you know, experts are saying thatour food, uh, system is in, in danger.
And so since you're literally, um, punintended and not un intended on the
ground, um, would you say that, uh, areyou seeing that, that our food system is
(12:31):
in danger or is it something that's hypedup because we don't have, or I would say
majority of the people living in citiesand away from the farm don't have, um,
you know, uh, direct access to sea or,um, I guess to see it in, in person.
Is this something that we're being toldor do you actually see it on the farm?
Jesse Hirsh (12:52):
Well, I, I think paradoxically it's both.
On the one hand I think thedanger is underestimated.
I, I think it's in fact quitegreater than people realize.
Before I became a farmer and I wasvery much interested in climate
change and climate advocacy.
I met with a farmer who said,Hey, we don't need to worry
(13:13):
about the cities flooding.
We're all gonna starve way before then.
And I think people really don't under,uh, really don't appreciate how brittle
our food system is and how easy a, as wesaw in the pandemic with supply chains
breaking our food supply chains can easilybreak, eggs for example are, are starting
(13:34):
to become almost a luxury item because ofthe way in which avian influenza is, is
really making it difficult for traditionalpoultry producers to do their jobs.
So I, on the one hand, yes, it'sincredibly dangerous, but on the other
hand the solution's quite accessible.
I, when I was living in the city,I, I spent a year living in a
(13:56):
condo, a glass condo, and I grew atremendous amount of tomatoes and
peppers and other kind of vegetables.
And I calculated that if, you know, thecondo board, if they stipulated that every
south facing, or every or west facing unitthat got enough sun, had to grow a certain
(14:19):
quota of vegetables and then make thosevegetables available to the building, let
alone selling them to neighbors nearby.
They would easily produce enough foodto feed the building and then some.
And it's that attitude.
It's the idea that someoneelse is gonna grow my food is
(14:39):
I think, part of the problem.
And I think if we do start embracinggardening, if we do start embracing
a more cooperative approach to foodproduction, then it'll be really easy to
solve the challenges and dangers we face.
Unfortunately that's still theoretical.
That's still something that's onlyhappening in certain communities.
(15:01):
It's not happening at the scalenecessary to, to feed everybody.
Annmarie Hylton (15:06):
And Yes.
And you know what I, I, 'causeI was thinking of two, two
different things, right?
Uh, when you were, um, talking you know,having everyone, uh, I guess start to
participate I guess in their own uh, intheir own life in, uh, survival, their
own survival through, through food.
Um, like they used to, I guess, um, asthey would say in the olden days, right?
(15:30):
Um, if you, uh, uh, as they wouldsay, if you are weren't willing
to work, you don't eat right.
And so, you know, getting people, I guess,motivated to think about their own uh,
I guess substance and sustainabilityand and realize that they are.
I guess I have no better way to putit, responsible for themselves uh, as
(15:55):
they, as they, uh, should be you know,getting people to, uh, to take that up.
And, but then there's also, as youwere mentioning before, there's
this, uh, you know, push against thewhole, um, uh, kind of, um, science.
And I guess, you know, um, a littlebit of the, as we're gonna dive
into the, the technological aspect.
(16:17):
So I guess getting people to en embrace,it's, to me, I'm having a hard time, uh,
framing the question because I, it's likefarming itself is science to me, right?
So it's, it's, it's, it's hardfor me to imagine that people.
I guess they're just, they're just soout of touch of I guess who and what
(16:40):
we, we are, um, these days that theydon't realize that we are essentially
the planet, and the planet at us is us.
'cause that's how you're growing.
You know, you, you put food inyour mouth that's coming from
the ground and you know, then itrecycles, it recycles out of you.
Right.
Um, and so, and it's,it's a continuous cycle.
(17:00):
So I just, I don't know.
I guess, let me ask the question.
How do you think that we got here thatpeople became so disconnected from what
it is to be, part of the planet and human.
Jesse Hirsh (17:11):
I think the short answer is the industrial process, in part
because the industrial process andmechanization is inherently the
opposite of, you know, the word youused earlier, which is holistic.
I. It's designed on trying to breakdown and isolate each step of the
process without asking the question,what does this impact the whole, what
(17:36):
is this impact to the environment?
What is this impact to the future?
And that industrial, uh, logicfocuses primarily on growth,
on efficiency, on optimization.
And so you have a farming practice,which is based on doing everything
as large as you can, as heavily asyou can to get the biggest profits
(18:00):
you can, the biggest yields you can.
And there's no room to question itbecause the way in which farmers
are exploited like farmers.
On the one hand can be incrediblywealthy in the sense that they
have land and they have equipmentand they have access to capital.
(18:20):
But they're also highly exploitedin that all of the things they have
depend upon promises they've made toother people like banks and equipment
manufacturers and seed companies, orlo a a a food or, or meat distributors.
So they, they get locked into a logic.
They get locked into a system.
(18:43):
And the flip side to this is it'sfarming is not an easy industry to enter.
Like on the one hand we were talking abouthow gardening is really quite accessible.
Anyone can start gardening.
But farming is actuallyincredibly difficult to get into.
The cost of land is inflated.
(19:04):
It's incredibly expensive.
The cost of equipment, the cost of inputs,the cost of everything is inflated.
I've often heard farmers sort of describethat farming I is all about buying
retail and selling wholesale, whichis the opposite of any other business
where you buy wholesale and sell retail.
(19:24):
This is the inverse.
And so you, it's very difficultfor farmers to make any money.
And so consequently, mostfarmers, most people who are in
the industry were born there.
Or maybe they married in, but they havethe farm because their parents, their
grandparents, their great grandparents,maybe even their great-great grandparents
(19:47):
started in farming and they survivedall sorts of crises, all sorts of, uh,
shady situations, bad weather events.
And so that makes them a kind ofsmall sea conservative, a kind of,
if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
'cause that's how our parents did it.
That's how our grandparents did it.
So the industrial process of farming isreally kind of culturally baked in and.
(20:15):
Or I almost in a derogatory way,say some people are anti-science.
I don't necessarily mean thatthey're anti-technology, I just
mean that their vision of science.
It, it was back when doctors usedto prescribe cigarettes, when,
you know, our notion of say dieselexhaust was something good to inhale.
(20:38):
That science did once long ago.
Tell them those facts.
It just so happens that science isdynamic and constantly changing.
And if you're not learning and changingwith it, it's easy to think that it's good
to spray tons of pesticides on your land.
It's good to, uh, use lots of, uh,uh, expensive, uh, fertilizer, you
(21:02):
know, petroleum based fertilizer.
'cause it gets you better cropswithout thinking what it's doing
to your soil without thinking whatit's doing to your neighbor's soil.
And without thinking about, you know,the, the long-term sustainability
from a business perspective ofone's agricultural practices.
That's one of the biggest reasons thatwe're in the food crisis we're in,
(21:25):
because it's, it's the, the yield, thereturn that comes from the industrial
process is already diminishing and it,it, it's gonna continue to increase
in its rate of failing to return.
And that's gonna put a lot of pressureon an already weak and exploited
system, which could create a, a, a veryprecarious food security environment.
Annmarie Hylton (21:51):
Yes.
And so in that, you know, one of thethings, I'm gonna break it down a little
bit, is that, farmers that I'm comingfrom, uh, two parents that had, um,
that grew up on farms or from farms,even though, uh, different countries.
Um, so he won here in the US andwon, uh, abroad in, uh, Jamaica.
(22:13):
And so, uh, two different systems com,um, completely when it comes to, uh,
farming, but having that traditionof, how, uh, farms are pass to, um,
children and generations and thenhow things are done on the farm.
Part of it, I would say yes, for farmers.
There is, um, especially if you, uh, andgrowing up in a, a family of farmers,
(22:38):
there's, um, I. Uh, I guess there'sa, a pride of, this is our land and
this is how we've done things, right?
Because, maybe you go to, uh, thefarm, you know, uh, a few miles
down and , they may grow the sameproduct, but, um, it's a little bit
different because that's their stamp.
But staying in those traditions becauseit was their, their kind of family sealed.
(22:59):
So there's that.
That is, uh, I guess comesacross in I guess a lot of like
our traditional professions.
I would say similar to teachers, right?
Um.
And what I mean by that, like when,uh, most people that get into like a, a
teaching profession, they have an ideaof like, this is how I'm going to do
things to, you know, make my difference.
(23:22):
Um, and, you know, you get tunnelvision, um, because it is, uh, the
tradition that you want to follow.
But in the fact that , through the, Iguess past technologies mostly I would
say through, um, fertilizers and how tospeed up the process because a lot of
(23:42):
farmers, um, are, are put under pressureto be like, okay, you know, last week
you did 20 tomatoes, now we need 300.
So, let's get these, uh,these plants to produce more.
Um, but it's causing a lot of differentthings, some other things that
I've, uh, read about and I'm sure.
Um, this is, uh, definitely on your radar.
(24:03):
Um, there's a loss of, uh, the nutrition,uh, the nutritional value, right?
Um, that's getting affected.
There's, um, uh, some of the seeds that,um, that are being given, uh, specifically
I guess you would say the GMO seeds.
GM uh, o seeds are not reproducing.
So meaning that like if you plant thattomato, um, and then the, uh, tomato
(24:25):
matures and you go to eat it, and thenyou take those, uh, seeds of that tomato,
they are not then producing another tomatoplant because they become sterile because
of how they were, um, you know, treatedor, um, harvested or, or whatever else,
uh, was going on with, um, the seeds.
And so, of course that becomes,uh, problematic because of the.
(24:49):
The way that we used to farm, youknow, you would eat something,
take the seed, plant it, getanother one, and, uh, you go on.
Um, but because of all the, uh, chemicalslike you mentioned, uh, pro, uh,
petroleum, um, that they've been usingin farming, which is just like, you know,
ironic and not ironic, uh, literallypouring, uh, gasoline on our, our foods
(25:11):
or burning it up, uh, which is then, um,uh, burning and, and killing our soil.
So we have like a whole, uh, chainreaction that is, um, happening.
And so you have been focusing on, um,uh, bringing, um, these new technologies
or introducing technologies to, uh,the farming, um, industry or motivating
(25:35):
people to look at it differently, I guess.
How do you, I, I guess how do youstart getting these, uh, people to.
Think differently.
Jesse Hirsh (25:46):
Uh, I mean, quite frankly, you don't.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, I, I think there's areal difference between trying to
persuade people, which is increasingly,I think, futile versus providing
more sustainable alternatives.
And the secret to some of thenew farming practices that are
sustainable, that are in line withnature is, is they are more profitable.
(26:09):
They are more prosperous.
And, and that's fundamentally whata lot of farmers focus on, is they
are motivated by the economics.
You know, they're certainly motivated byfamily, they're motivated in many cases
by environmental stewardship, but theydo need to focus on the bottom line.
And that's where a lot of these practices,certainly when it comes to, uh, investing
(26:30):
in the soil quality, and, and that'swhere you get the better nutrients.
That's where you getthe better nutrition is.
It's really a reflection of the, not justbiodiversity, but bacterial health, the
extent to which there's, uh, the greaternumber and greater diversity of microbes
in the soil that then influences thenutritiousness as well as the, the yield
(26:53):
and the size of whatever it is you'regrowing and so it, it is approaching
farming from a holistic perspective.
I the technology piece for me is, isa bit of a Trojan horse in that it's
a way to, you know, use the new shinyobject as an opportunity to get people
(27:13):
thinking about new agricultural practices.
But it's also where my strengthas a futurist comes in.
'cause it's where I'm anticipating,for example, the role of robotics.
The role of ai, the role of technologyin, at, at the very least, fostering
a kind of new practice of precisionagriculture where you're, instead of using
(27:37):
pesticides, you're identifying the weeds,you're identifying the things on the
plants that you don't want to be growing,and you remove them by other meat.
And, and the industrial processof agriculture was partly a
response, but also partly acreation of the labor shortage
that has always played agriculture.
(27:59):
And, you know, on the one handwe talk about how people left
the country to go to the city.
Well, part of the reason they didthat was city jobs paid better so you
could make more money and potentiallylead an easier life working in a
factory or working in an office.
But historically agriculture,especially smaller operations,
(28:21):
have always had a labor problem.
It's why farm families would be larger,they'd have more kids 'cause they
needed more people to work there.
And, you know, they would incentivizethose kids by saying, Hey look,
you can have the farm when we die.
That's part of the reason we're gonnaexploit you for your entire life.
And you know, that model, uh,unfortunately or fortunately,
(28:42):
depending on where you stoodin the family, uh, broke down.
And so we still and continueto have a problem with how do
we do all the work on the farm?
And that's where robots on some levelsare kind of appealing and they have a nice
crossover in that they can also enablemore sustainable practices, uh, more soil
(29:03):
centric practices, but they also enablea greater understanding of the farm.
It allows the farmer tounderstand their soil.
It allows 'em tounderstand their livestock.
It allows 'em to understand their crops.
So instead of taking the industrialapproach, which is, you know, kind
of the, uh, killing a mosquito with anuclear bomb, or you taking a really
(29:27):
blunt object approach, when a moresurgical approach, a more precision
approach, is both environmentallysustainable, but often more profitable.
So technology allows forthe greater feedback loop.
It makes it easier for the farmerto understand what they're doing,
to see the impact of the choicesthey make, and therefore make.
(29:48):
Perhaps better choices, more prosperouschoices, more sustainable choices.
And that's where I sort of say it's abit of a Trojan horse, that if you look
at the kind of narrative of technologythat the industry is currently using,
it's really about sustaining theindustrial model, uh, of allowing the
industrial model to get even larger.
(30:09):
And dare I say it even more sinister, butI actually think there's an opportunity
to do the opposite, to use the technologyto empower smaller farmers and to,
uh, empower a much more sustainableapproach to agriculture in general.
Annmarie Hylton (30:25):
Yes.
I started, um, envisioning, 'causeI, I think in pictures and it
was something actually I had,uh, an article that I hadn't.
Uh, red and they were, um, testing kindof a, I don't know what the name of the
robot was, but essentially they werelike, uh, making, uh, using like hose
and making rose, uh, to start planting.
Um, and so, you know, uh, I, I love theapproach of using the, uh, innovation and
(30:51):
especially now because it seems, you know,um, uh, in our, our new political climate
here in the US where, um, many people aregetting deported and, um, a lot of them
were, uh, people who were working on, onfarms that this may be something that we,
we need to move on rather quickly, um, inbringing in these innovative, uh, ideas,
(31:16):
but then also keeping it ho holistic.
So being able to, um, youknow, not throw out, um.
Uh, you know, a move to produce, uh, uh,more, but using it in a healthier way.
So just rethinking how we mergeour two, I guess you would say
two different worlds, right?
Our world of technology withour old ways and enhance it to
(31:39):
make it even a, a better world.
Um, that's thinking about us as, uh,human beings and what we need from
a, uh, a nutrient value, um, uh,a sustainability value in regards
to, uh, you know, the planet.
Making sure that, um, know, uh, youknow, that used to be that you were
(32:00):
supposed to like, uh, rotate yourcrops so that you didn't you know, burn
out the soil and put nutrients back.
And, uh, having that technology, Idon't know if they have, uh, such
robots already invented that would belike, you know, planting and then, um.
Tells you like, oh, you know, don'tput a seed in, uh, this, uh, area
of soil because, you know, these,uh, beans are not going to grow.
(32:23):
Instead, it's time to, you know, um, throwin some, uh, strawberries or something.
I'm making that up not knowing likewhat would be the, the change of
course in the soil, but, um, havingthat ability that we can then, um, you
know, start thinking of ourselves in adifferent, healthier, in a healthier way.
(32:44):
Now, as you were mentioning before,that you can't necessarily, you know,
change how people are, are thinking.
But if you were, I guess, goingto, I guess on, on your farm,
start introducing or, uh, gettingpeople to take on these things.
Should we just start implementinglike, just, uh, classes worldwide?
(33:06):
Do you think, uh, like little by littleto start opening, um, this up to people
or do you think that, um, it needsto be just a radical change and just
say, okay, look everyone, we're gonna,you know, we have 40 harvest left.
If you guys wanna be aroundand not fighting for an apple.
Um, you know, it's, uh,it's, it's now or never.
Jesse Hirsh (33:29):
I, I mean, to my earlier point about how accessible farming as
an industry is it's kind of equivalentto policing in the sense that there's a
long line of people who wanna do the joband there's no reason for us to tolerate
the idiots who are currently doing it.
And that's not to disparage farmers.
Whereas I'm absolutely happy todisparage law enforcement officers.
(33:52):
I think the solution here is to makeit easier for people to become farmers.
You don't need to try to change minds.
The, the people who are going aboutit the old way are gonna fail.
And unfortunately we have asystem, especially in the United
States where we subsidize failure.
Right.
We, we don't allow the big businessesthat control much of the industry to fail
(34:16):
when they have fundamentally been failing.
When instead, we should make it easierfor new people who wanna farm to become
farmers, because those are the oneswho are gonna do the new practices.
Those are the ones who are, who arelearning, who are gardening, who are
really embracing the bleeding edge ofscientific and technological research.
(34:39):
And to your point about therobots, they already exist.
I mean, there are, are tons andtons of agricultural robots.
Uh, every year there's a couple of events,one in Europe, one in America that is
dedicated to agricultural robotics andfeature all sorts of, from small end
(34:59):
to high end, uh, uh, farming robots.
Uh, again, which are used notjust for sustainable practices.
Many of them really are designedto, to e enable the industrial
practices that, that are kind ofproblematic, but are still how we eat.
So a lot of the people, to playdevil's advocate who work in that
industry would say, well, we're allgonna starve without their practices.
(35:23):
But I believe we need way minute.
We need more farmers, new farmers,creative farmers, farmers who have
new ideas, who have ideas thatyou and I could never imagine.
And, you know, uh, given theopportunity would find really in
innovative, sustainable ways to workwith nature rather than against it.
(35:43):
I don't think the issuehere is classrooms.
I, I think.
As an aside, their current model ofeducation is also broken and obsolete.
I, I think there's a lot of people outthere who are eager to teach themselves,
who are eager to spend every day learning.
'cause that's what farming is,that's what farming should be.
That that's what surviving climate changeis is really about embracing and fostering
(36:08):
a kind of cur curiosity and innovation,which there are so many people in this
world who would kill for the opportunityto farm, who would love to be able to
apply more sustainable practices uh,to, to how and where they grow food.
It's the cost of entrythat is so prohibitive.
(36:31):
So if I were to articulate it in theform of a policy it would be subsidizing
the entry of new farmers into themarket rather than subsidizing existing
farmers who have bad practices andwho are holding onto land that's been
in their generation for families.
'cause it's very emotional for them.
But if you know, we are to accept thatfood is a business, and I'm not saying
(36:55):
it should be, but if we were to acceptthat food is a business, then we should
allow new entrants into the market andthose new entrants will bring with them
new technology and new methodologies.
Annmarie Hylton (37:09):
Yes, I'm, I'm for it.
I guess I would say I'm for it.
I'm, I know a lot of people, they Ihave a theory, you know, it hasn't,
um, been proven of course, 100%,but I have a, a theory that, um,
what's really, really, really wrongon the planet is coming directly.
It's, uh, once again puns.
(37:29):
I, I like to be a little bit,uh, silly and, and, and kooky.
Um, but, uh, at the root of it,I believe it is, um, all these
things that we're experiencing insociety, I believe we're coming from
the ground and what we're eating.
I believe that, um, that people arenot, uh, you know, as mentally you know,
(37:50):
uh, as strong as they used to be andphysically as strong as they used to
be, um, uh, because I believe everythingthat is, is coming from the ground and
that it is, it's causing all these,uh, unbelievable things that we haven't
seen before, um, in society becauseit's coming straight from the ground.
That's what I, you know, that's mytheory, um, that, uh, that that's why
(38:14):
we have to go back and really lookabout, um, what's getting into us.
Like as the, the saying says,you are what you eat, right?
Um, so that's my theory about whywe've, uh, come into, uh, uh, uh, chaos.
Um, because I think a majority ofthe people are not getting, um, what
(38:34):
they really need from the ground.
Like I said, it might befarfetched, but that's what I think.
Jesse Hirsh (38:39):
I, I, I don't think it's farfetched, but
I would argue the opposite.
That the problem is with our politicsand our political leaders, uh, and
that if we had better politicalleaders, we'd be eating better food.
Annmarie Hylton (38:51):
This is true.
'cause they would probablycare a little bit more about
what's going on in the ground.
Well, but
Jesse Hirsh (38:58):
also
Annmarie Hylton (38:58):
to
Jesse Hirsh (38:58):
recognize that all industries are products of their regulations, right?
Society is a product ofits laws or lack thereof.
And so, the agricultural sector,uh, is very powerful when it
comes to lobbying is very powerfulwhen it comes to legislation.
So we, I don't wanna blame consumersfor eating the food that they,
(39:21):
food they eat, especially if theydon't have a lot of money and
they're buying food that's cheap.
Uh, we can legitimately, as many peoplelove to do, blame our politicians.
Because our food system, uh, like many ofour systems, like our response to climate
change is not quote unquote natural.
It's not automatic, it's not accidental.
(39:43):
It's a byproduct of politics.
And so, uh, politics is reallythe place to make any changes to
improve our diet or our wellbeing.
Annmarie Hylton (39:53):
Yes.
And right now I think we are in a periodof, um, what I would say, uh, a uh,
time of deep internal work is needed.
I think, um, uh, definitely here inthe us as we see, uh, there's a lot
of, um, I'll just call it chaos 'causeI don't know what else to say anymore.
Um, I'll just, uh, um, yeah, so I thinkit's a time of definitely deep internal I.
(40:19):
You know, self-examination is needed andto decide, like, um, where are we going?
Um, as, uh, as, uh, people,what do we value anymore?
Do we, do we value ourselves?
Do we value our lives?
Um, do we value our health?
You know, do we value thefuture, essentially, right?
(40:41):
Do we value the future?
Uh, because it seems that, uh, youknow, we have this thing of we just
live, live for now, and then, andthen we, uh, stop and they're like,
oh, we can't believe that happened.
Well, how can we believe,not believe that happened?
Jesse Hirsh (40:58):
And this is why I think gardening is really powerful, because
if your food grows, you can ask your,you can sort of say to yourself,
well, I know how that happened.
And if the food dies, then you couldsay, well, how did that happen?
Oh, I didn't take care of it.
Oh, I didn't water it.
Oh, I didn't put the effort in.
(41:19):
And it's that relationship with time.
And you earlier alluded to responsibility.
Although, although I don't think it'spersonal responsibility, I think it's
collective responsibility becausewhat I love about living with animals
is I am responsible not for them.
I'm responsible to them.
(41:40):
I have to feed them.
If I don't feed them, they willbe hungry, they could get sick.
So I'm responsible to them inthe sense that if I do feed them.
Well, then they love me andthey enjoy hanging out with me.
And that brings me happinessand that brings me joy.
So there's a much more, to your point,A, a relationship with the long term,
(42:02):
a relationship with consequences, arelationship with responsibility that
I think whether you have pets, whetheryou have a garden, or whether you just
have houseplant, I think that that kindof work is really valuable to helping
us feel that we can make a difference.
That even the small action ofwatering a plant could result in
(42:25):
something that tastes really good andmakes us feel nourished and happy.
So that to me is, is, is a, areal potential for empowerment,
especially on the community level.
Annmarie Hylton (42:37):
Yeah.
And I was just thinking, you know,uh, we, when you were saying about
responsibility, it re, you know,it reminds me of like our, our
first job and I think we just, uh.
We forgot it or we got scared,or or who knows, uh, a bunch of
other, um, things came into effect.
But our first job is to bestewards of, of the planet.
(42:59):
And I think, you know, um, youknow, whether you look at it from
a, uh, you know, logical or a, um,you know, religious standpoint,
um, that is our, our main.
You know, our main, our main job.
And for some reason, you know,um, I know a, a lot of different
reasons, but we just, we, we ranaway from that responsibility.
(43:22):
And now as, like I was saying, andnow we have to face the consequences
and we're like, oh my gosh.
You know, and we want to allpoint a billion fingers in
all different directions.
But, um, it's time to, uh, in my opinion,quits, pointing the fingers and get our
hands dirty and get the, and get digging.
(43:42):
And get digging.
Um, in, uh, closing a little bit, Iwanted to, um, ask you a, a few things
about, uh, to give some insight.
Uh, I'm gonna give you a, acouple just technical, uh,
quiz questions a little bit.
I. I guess here's one.
Um, how do you see, uh, geneticengineering and, uh, CRISPR technology
(44:05):
transferring food production and,uh, crop resilience in the future?
Jesse Hirsh (44:11):
I, it's a kind of double-edged sword.
I mean, on the one hand, it has theopportunity to give us a greater
understanding a greater awareness of whycertain crops, certain animals, certain
breeds, certain species flourish theway they do or suffer the way they do.
And while we are gonna face a lot ofchallenges in terms of uh, a volatile
(44:35):
climate cycle in terms of sometimeswetter summers, uh, or drier parts
of the seasons in terms of floodsand droughts and extreme heat.
So there is certainly a role to thatlevel of genetic hacking to make
some of our crops, make some of ouranimals a little more resistant.
(44:57):
But the danger is that if it becomes atool for short-term gain at the expense
of kind of long-term sensibilities.
Then we, we could bemaking the situation worse.
And it, it goes into the,that adage of with great power
comes great responsibility.
And, and once we enter theworld of genetics and gene
(45:19):
hacking, that is a lot of power.
So I, I think it is helpful whenit comes to understanding, when it
comes to science, when it comes toappreciating our relationship with nature.
But I think if we retain a positionof arrogance, if we retain a position
of superiority, that we can usethese tools to one up or best nature,
(45:45):
then, uh, that unfortunately isgonna lead to negative consequences.
Annmarie Hylton (45:50):
Yes.
Um, I think, you know, um, it reminds melike the, uh, stepping a little bit away
from farming, but uh, it's like these,um, mod uh, modified, uh, foods or food.
Um, have you heard of things like,uh, I'm sure you've heard of like
you can create, uh, food out of, uh,different, uh, proteins in the air.
Have you heard of the airprotein of the making food?
(46:12):
Like, uh, out of, um,I guess non-food items.
Um, so I, I mean, I know as afarmer you're probably like, no,
no, well eat, eat it, don't eat it.
Everything.
Yeah.
Jesse Hirsh (46:25):
On the contrary, everything gets lost in translation.
Mm-hmm.
Because you know, when you hear peoplesay, oh, I don't want to eat that food.
You know, it's got chemicals.
Well, well, everythingis made of chemicals.
Like all food is chemicals,water is hydrogen and oxygen.
And farming as a practice or aslike a scientific methodology,
(46:47):
it's been messing with nature forhundreds and hundreds of years.
Some of those experiments werereally good, some of those
experiments were not so good.
So I I it none of this is clear cut.
And I think the larger issue is kind, ifwe were to use a rule, it would be local.
(47:08):
And I say this in the sense of evenif the food is produced in a quasi
synthetic or quasi artificial manner,if the ingredients of that food comes
from local soil, comes from localanimals, comes from local, whatever.
(47:28):
Then that is fundamentallythe best thing for our health.
It's the eating food that is notconnected to where we live, where we
breathe, and the microbes and all theviruses and bacteria that make us up.
That's where things get a little sketchy.
But there is now, thanks totechnology, a lot of gimmicks,
(47:51):
a lot of wild ideas as possible.
Some of these wild ideasmay actually feed humanity.
So that's where I'm always, on the onehand, cautious and skeptical about.
I don't know.
But on the other hand, I'm like,well, maybe, maybe there is some
young person now who's got some crazyidea that's gonna radically increase
(48:11):
the food supply as we know it.
So that, that's where I think it the,the moral here is if you don't have a
few farmers as friends, you ought to.
Because even if you don't agreewith their politics, you're still
gonna learn from them in termsof where your food comes from and
(48:32):
how to eat as healthy as possible.
'cause no one actually has the answer.
But the more people you talk to, themore likely you're able to make up your
mind in a way that's gonna benefit you.
Annmarie Hylton (48:45):
Yes.
And one more technical one, which kind oflayers on this one, and in a way you've
answered it a bit, um, but, um, how doyou see, uh, blockchain technology, um,
reshaping the agricultural supply andenhancing transparency, traceability
and trust between farmers and consumers?
Because one of the biggest thingsis I'm in California, so, uh, we're
(49:08):
always like, where did this come from?
And, you know, we have our,our labels on our food.
Um, we wanna know the nutrients.
California is, um, you know, maybe,uh, an outlier because, you know, in
California we're always thinking aboutoh, is this, uh, what we're eating?
Um, you know, is this,uh, almonds from here?
And there we're a little bitmore, um, I would say particular.
(49:32):
So, we're maybe the,yeah, we're the outliers.
Outliers are a little bit, uh, notyour typical, I guess you would say.
Jesse Hirsh (49:40):
I think the technology or the desire for traceability and
transparency in the food systemis gonna increase err radically.
I, I think even consumers today who arecontent to be completely oblivious as
to where their food comes from, I thinkthey are also gonna start to expect it.
But more importantly, it's theproducers and the distributors who
(50:02):
are gonna demand for that levelof transparency and traceability.
And maybe five years ago, or even 10years ago, I think blockchain was a,
a viable candidate to play that role.
But I'm not sure it's legitimate anymore.
And I think there is a growing conconstituency within the technology
(50:25):
world who feel that blockchain is,is just a scam, a complete, and.
Total catastrophe.
Uh, so I, I don't think it's really gonnaget the consensus or the credibility
required in in, in a matter of trust.
'cause that is fundamentally whatwe're talking about is the system
(50:46):
of transparency and traceabilityis designed to foster greater
trust of the food supply system.
And I think that inherentlydisqualifies blockchain and all
associated technologies presently.
But I do think that there, there arecurrently other technologies that
are competing to provide this roleand are, uh, aspiring to be a kind
(51:10):
of infrastructure when it comes tofood security and food traceability.
And, and I think it's, uh, uh, generallysomething that'll be beneficial
for farmers and consumers alike.
But I, I don't think it'll be blockchain.
And if it is blockchain,it'll be an absolute disaster.
Annmarie Hylton (51:29):
Now a little bit of a global question because, you know, we've
been talking about, um, technology andlooking, um, at food in the US and, um,
Canada now for developing countries.
You know, developing countries, uh, areexperiencing, you know, multiple range
of, uh, you know, different experiences.
Um, some of them, uh,depending on, you know.
(51:52):
Um, how bad the situation is,uh, may be, uh, reliant on, uh,
GMO seeds being sent to them.
Um, I had, um, some, uh, people, um,that I, uh, worked on a couple projects
with in like, uh, east, um, Africa,and, um, uh, talking about, uh, you
know, soil burnout and things like that.
(52:15):
Um, so how, I guess, uh, in theseregions that you know, have not been,
uh, you know, shared technology hasnot necessarily been, um, shared,
but desperately need to see a changebecause they've had, uh, populations
there for, hundreds if not, uh, youknow, thousands of millions of years.
Um, how.
(52:37):
I guess, how do we, um, start introducingthese types of regions to this technology?
Or how does this technology,um, get introduced to them so
that they can get out of thesituations of, um, you know, famine?
Jesse Hirsh (52:51):
So, I, I have a lot of difficulties with
how you frame that question.
Okay.
Uh, in part because it enables a kindof technological colonialism that I
think none of those countries desire.
Mm-hmm.
I think again, the state of thefood security system globally is a
consequence of politics and economics.
(53:14):
Not so much technology andcertainly in a lot of, again,
I think developing countries isitself a kind of political phrase.
So I'll say in a lot of countriesthat are not North American, European,
uh, especially in South America,but especially in Africa, there is
(53:34):
tremendous technological innovation.
And the kinds of technology,the kinds of tools that they are
using are incredibly advanced.
I, I would argue in many cases,more advanced than a lot of farmers
are using here in North America.
Uh, part of the geopolitical dynamicsof this, of course, is China.
(53:56):
China is one of the world's leadingtechnology manufacturers globally,
and they create a lot of agriculturaltechnology, especially drones.
And the role of drones in agriculture,especially Chinese drones in agriculture,
has been, uh, quite revolutionary.
(54:18):
So a lot of this technologyis available in what's often
referred to as the global south.
Uh, the larger issues for those farmersare more like access to markets, right?
And ability to get, uh, properprices or collective bargain,
uh, uh, for their crops.
(54:38):
But then of course the otherissue is land ownership.
Uh, uh, land ownership here in NorthAmerica is a huge obstacle to agriculture.
Land ownership in the global south is alsoa huge obstacle because of the colonial
past, because of the political past.
As much as technology can play a verypowerful role in making food cheaper
(54:59):
and making food safer, and making therole of farming more sustainable and
happy it's really about accessibilityto the industry and not so much about
accessibility to the technology.
Because a flip side to this is there isa lot of free and open source technology
that is applied to agriculture, bothin terms of farming robots, but in
(55:22):
terms of some of the internet ofthings and some of the other kind of
technological applications, even ai.
You know, really the issue withfarming has always been, and will
probably always be access to land.
Uh, not so much access to technology.
And then once you have access toland, access to collective projects
(55:43):
like irrigation, like solar power,like water rationing you know, the,
these are again, all political issues,not so much technological issues.
And that's where I, I think it'sworth pointing out that there's no
such thing as a neutral technology.
You know, technologies themselvesare, are very political.
(56:04):
That's where, you know, one ofthe underlying I think, visions
of farming that we've been talkingabout today has been industrial
farming versus sustainable farming.
Well, the industrial farming modelis big tractors and big combines.
Well, what if in the sustainable farmingmodel you got little robots that,
(56:24):
you know, don't have the, the sameimpact on the soil, don't require the
same amount of diesel fuel or energyconsumption, but you can have way more
of them and they can do many tasksand allow those tasks to be done in
coordination and through networking.
Again, these are models that arebeing tried by farmers that are being
(56:45):
experimented really around the world.
It, it's just, uh, uh, it's somethingmost people just don't pay attention
to because they take for grantedwhere their food comes from.
Annmarie Hylton (56:57):
Yes.
And so, um.
I, you know, I, I wanted to make surethat we touched a little bit on, um,
the global, um, market of farming.
Um, because, you know, we, wedefinitely see that, um, it's,
uh, it's different in each region.
Not, uh, you know, farmingand growing itself.
(57:18):
But, um, yes, exactly, um, havingaccess to, um, these technologies
so that the difference can be madeand then they can get, uh, you
know, the food that is needed.
And then of course, you know, as the otherthing is that people always think that
there's not enough food in the world, butthere is, it's just about distribution.
(57:38):
So same thing.
And then for I guess myclosing question to you.
How would, I guess, uh, your everydayperson, I guess, um, start to, uh,
I guess move into a new, I guess anew way of thinking about farming
and how do we start, uh, I guessjust, uh, pushing ourselves to where
(58:04):
we need to be, or I guess maybe Ishould ask, where do you think that
we need to be in order to be okay.
Five years from now?
And that's a big question.
I'm, and I, I know I always call these mykind of, um, uh, beauty passion questions
because it's hard to, hard to predict.
Jesse Hirsh (58:23):
I think it's important to recognize that there's no such
thing as individuals, and that if wewere individuals, we would starve.
Uh, we certainly experience life asindividuals, but we fundamentally live
in community, and the only way that we'reable to feed is by helping each other.
So on the one hand, I encourage peopleto garden, and if gardening is not your
(58:46):
thing, help someone else who has a garden.
Ask them what help they need, whatwork they could do, or just chat with
them about their garden so that theyhave time to talk about it and feel as
if they're doing something valuable.
If, if you wanna level up beyondthat, uh, make friends with a farmer.
And thanks to the technology ofsocial media, there are now a
(59:07):
lot of farmers who are online.
Who are on YouTube, who are on Instagram,who are on TikTok, who have their own
websites and they wanna be your friend.
They wanna connect with peoplewho eat their food or who wanna
learn how their food is produced.
And it's that kind of directlearning that I think benefits not
just the people who eat the food,it benefits the farmers as well.
(59:29):
'cause they get into a kind ofconversation, uh, with their
community, with their consumers.
So I, I think it's important to, to bemore active in understanding where your
food comes from, but more importantly, toput labor into where your food comes from.
And finally, for a lot of people, thatmeans spending more time making your food.
(59:50):
It, I think maybe we take forgranted how easy it is to buy food
that's finished, that's alreadyprepared, rather than putting in
labor and joy into making your food.
It, it doesn't have to be complicated.
You don't need to make anything fancy,but there is a satisfaction, there is a
joy in eating food you've made, let aloneeating food that you've grown and made.
(01:00:15):
So I, I think that kind of uh,food for the soul, that kind of
healing practice is, is somethingeveryone can benefit from.
Annmarie Hylton (01:00:23):
I love how you call it Food for the Soul, you know, um,
bringing back, uh, when we go back to,uh, I guess farming was about community.
So perfect response ifyou have, uh, I guess, um.
If you have, uh, I guess onething, this is a fun question.
Um, I wanted to ask you ifyou have one thing that you
(01:00:46):
love, uh, uh, love planting.
Um, what would you say issomething that you love to plant
Jesse Hirsh (01:00:52):
jalapenos
Annmarie Hylton (01:00:54):
and why?
I.
Jesse Hirsh (01:00:55):
I love to eat them.
Annmarie Hylton (01:00:57):
You, you just eat them plain, or do you put
them in things or all of them?
Jesse Hirsh (01:01:01):
I use them all of the above.
I, I, I make hot sauces.
I eat them plain.
I cook them as parts of other foods.
I make other peppers, uhhuh.
But jalapenos are kind of the staplein part because I live fairly north
and they are easier to grow at myclimate compared to other peppers.
Annmarie Hylton (01:01:19):
Okay.
It seems that you should, uh, you know, Iguess, uh, uh, become a Californian then.
Jesse Hirsh (01:01:25):
I, I, I would, except, you know, you guys don't
have a lot of water and you needwater for a lot of these things.
Yes, we did have that.
And I, I happen to live in a verywater rich, uh, part of the world.
Annmarie Hylton (01:01:37):
So you wanna make sure that, uh, that uh, you know, you can,
you can still, uh, drink, survive, andhave some other stuff as we're, um, yeah.
Unfortunately always,uh, burning down here.
But it is still beautiful
no doubt.
Uh, thank you Jesse, foryour time and insight.
To learn more about JesseHirsh, go to jesse hirsh.com.
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem, or
(01:02:00):
wanna change minds contact project, goodwork at Project Good, dot work to start
Your Project of Change today, subscribeto our mailing list at project good org
slash subscribe to get our episodes andblog articles sent to you each month.
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