December 11, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode of the Project Good Podcast, host Annmarie Hylton engages in a profound discussion with Jai-Ayla Sutherland, Program Manager of Mass Violence and Atrocities at the Stanley Center for Peace and Security. The conversation delves into the roots and persistence of identity-based violence, exploring frameworks for building more inclusive societies. Jai-Ayla shares her journey from Wyoming to working on international security issues and emphasizes the importance of community engagement, structural equality, and evidence-based prevention strategies. The episode provides an in-depth look at current global challenges, the role of identity in conflicts, and the necessity of collaborative and inclusive policy solutions to foster peace and resilience.
00:00 Welcome to Project Good Podcast 00:57 Introducing Jai-Ayla Sutherland 02:51 Jai-Ayla's Journey into International Relations 06:47 Understanding Identity-Based Violence 30:48 Community and Law Enforcement Collaboration 41:19 Global Perspective on Identity and Climate Change 48:33 Message to the Younger Generation 51:51 Conclusion and Call to Action
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to theProject Good podcast.
I'm your host, Annmarie Hylton.
Project Good is a social impact podcast,interviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is to inspirepeople and organizations to develop a
mindset that can move others to positiveaction regarding the conflict, social
(00:23):
issues facing people, and the planet.
For December, we're focusedon identity violence.
Every day people's lives aredefined and sometimes destroyed
because of who they are, where theycome from, or what they believe.
We have been living it and experiencingit daily in the media when our
differences are turned into divisions.
(00:44):
In today's conversation, we willunpack how identity based conflict
takes root, why it persists, whatit takes to build societies where
diversity isn't a trigger for violence,but a foundation for strength.
It is my pleasure to introduce ourguest, Jai-Ayla Sutherland, who is a
program manager and officer of MassViolence and Atrocities of the Stanley
(01:07):
Center for Peace and Security, where shesupports efforts to build resilience in
the worst kinds of violence by workingwith representatives from governments,
civil society, and the private sectorto develop networks and promote
evidence-based prevention strategies.
She's worked in North America, southAmerica, Europe, Africa, and Asia.
Has experienced conducting researchon the roots of violence and conflict
(01:30):
in Africa and the Middle East, andanalyzing structural needs and policy
approaches to preventing mass atrocities.
She has a master's in internationalsecurity from the University of
Denver, along with a degree ininternational relations from the
University of Southern California.
Let's get into the interview
(01:57):
For more than 65 years, the StanleyCenter for Peace and Security has
brought together members of the globalcommunity to exchange ideas, foster
innovation, and take collective action.
The Stanley Center drivespolicy in three issue areas.
Mitigating climate change, avoidingthe use of nuclear weapons and
preventing mass violence and atrocities.
(02:20):
Today I have the pleasure of diving intoour discussion with Jai-Ayla Sutherland,
who has dedicated her professional lifeto helping humanity welcome Jai-Ayla.
Hi there.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yes.
I'm so excited about this conversationbecause I think it is absolutely timely
in the way, um, the world is shapingout these days and what we're facing
(02:44):
on, uh, not only a local level inthe UI United States, but globally.
But before we dive into all the insand outs of how we're going to get
through that, um, I always like to knowa little bit about the person that I'm
interviewing and understand who they areand how their heart developed in life.
(03:07):
So what would you say drove youto get into this career space?
Yeah,
yeah.
No, that's a very good question.
Um, well I am, I'm from Wyoming.
I was born and raised in Wyomingand I actually live in Wyoming now.
But I think because, you know, relativelyspeaking, Wyoming is, is very rural.
(03:30):
Um, it's not super diverse and uh,I think it's a lot of people will
maybe lovingly say Wyoming is alwaysabout 10 to 20 years behind the curve.
Um.
I think I just had a lot of curiosityabout the world, and so when I had
(03:52):
the opportunity to go away for school,I actually got really interested in
international relations just generally,and really wanted to extend my
horizons and see more of the world,understand more of the world, meet
people who are different from the self.
And I think that coupled with, uh.
(04:16):
Core value of equality, um, you know,belief in humanity, belief in in goodness.
And, and I guess the two of those reallykind of came together and, and here I
am, you know, 10 years with the standardcenter and focused on believing that
we can do better as groups of people.
(04:39):
That peace is very much possible andpeace is actually around us all the time.
And so it's worth, um, working on thisand, and shedding Tide on ways that,
that we can continue to, to bringour peace and guesses to the world.
Wow.
I, I love that you, you've broughtin something I didn't think of, but
(05:01):
I think it's important that you saidpeace is around us all the time.
Mm-hmm.
And that's something I thinkpeople are not feeling.
Um, but, but it's important forpeople to not forget that because.
Um, unfortunately, um, you know, welived in a world that is so digitally
connected and there's so much news mm-hmm.
(05:23):
Um, coming to you every single moment of,you know, this horrible thing is happening
and this horrible thing is happening that,you know, internally, a lot of people, of
course, are feeling anxiety, um, nervous,scared, a, a bunch of different things.
Um, and so.
That is a good thing to saythat, and it's a good reminder
(05:46):
that peace is always around us.
Um, it's just, that'ssomething we have to choose.
Absolutely.
And it's, it's not to diminish a veryreality of that stress and violence
and oppression and marginalizationthat so many people feel it.
It was, no, not in any way todiminish or overlook that, but
(06:07):
I, I agree that when people.
I feel disheartened or hopeless or scared.
There are always examples that wecan look to of, of where peace is
possible and peace is happening.
And that actually connects to thiswork because we were really intentional
(06:29):
in pulling together not just anassessment of the problems, but a
deep listen analysis of the solutionsthat's that exist here and now.
And, and what we can learn to bringmore of those to, to bear for more
people in an inclusive and just way.
Now there's of course so many different,different segments that you could
(06:52):
have taken with your career when itcomes to international relations.
Um, I guess what initially drove you tofocus on identity, uh, based violence
and how it connects to, I guess.
Um, everything.
I
can't necessarily claimthat it was intentional.
(07:13):
I think I always, so, so for mepersonally, and, and I wanna make it
clear that as I'm one part of so manypeople and con editor and a team of
four editors who, who have brought thistogether, so I'm, I'm one small part of,
of a really impressive career of people.
(07:34):
Um, who have brought this work tothe world, um, to, just with that
disclaimer in mind, for me personally,um, I, I studied international security
in grad school because I didn't knowenough about it, and I very much
came, um, a perspective of peacebuilding and curiosity about what it.
(07:55):
Uh, curiosity and belief that you knowthat there is inherent goodness in all
of us and the the peace is possible.
And, and I also knew that the powerstructures around, you know, security
infrastructure and military and theway the world considers security were
something that I didn't fully understand.
And so when it was time for me togo to grad school, um, I thought it
(08:19):
would be good for me to learn andtaught something I didn't go about.
And so that I could couple that with.
What I felt like I was learning, itturned out when you go to grad school,
a lot of people keep learning aboutsomething they already knew about.
So I didn't exactly realize whatI was doing to myself, but, but
when I think what that did for mewas bring me into a space from a
(08:40):
completely different perspective.
And, and I really found myself aligningwith the idea that security is much
broader than what is commonly a, afairly narrow and, and really important.
Piece of security, which is, youknow, protection of borders and
protection of, you know, internationalsovereignty and, and military's
(09:04):
thought and practice and strategy.
And for me, I've just always thoughtof security in a much more expansive
manner, which is aligned with kindof the hearing security philosophy.
So, so that's the way thatI envision security now.
Um, and I think that took me.
Into what really was just, you know, thea, a really great job opportunity with the
(09:28):
Stanley Center where that, where I couldex continue to expand and understand how,
how I personally think about security,but also like what securities now was
to re to peoples who are living in away that doesn't feel safe or secure.
And, and so the work that I was doing.
(09:49):
At the time was really focused on theresponsibility to protect, which is
a global norm around, you know, the,the countries of the world and their
responsibility to both prevent massatrocities, uh, at home, towards elected
needed to prevent atrocities, uh, abroad.
(10:11):
And to react when there are atrocitiesoccurring and, and people who don't
have the ability to access safety andsecurity need assistance from outside.
So we were really focused on that and,and what I learned through that work
was that in so many mass atrocitiesidentity really is at the core of it.
(10:32):
And that's because.
To commit violence onthat large of a scale.
In most cases, it requiresdehumanizing a certain group of
people or certain groups of people.
And so that background in thinkingabout the role of identity in
(10:55):
these mass scale conflicts.
Coupled with work that we werestarting to explore with experts
in carbon violence reduction.
And we started having conversationswith them, well, what are you working on
in terms of venturing of, in a mass orkarmic violence at the the urban bubble?
(11:15):
And when we had those conversations,we realized we were really having
a very similar conversationwhen it came to solutions.
And it was orientedaround equality justice.
Equal access, equal opportunities tolive a safe, secure life with a good job.
(11:35):
You know, free from fear orreduced fear about whether new
kids can get to school safely.
Um, and so that's really where that cruxof this idea came together and we said it
needs to start thinking about identity.
At not just the international relationslevel, but also the way that identity
(11:58):
shows up in communities and how thosewith power, ease, or abuse, um, their
perceptions of identity to eitherinclude or exclude people from that,
um, those equal opportunities and, andthe inherent right that we believe that
everybody has to security and safety
(12:20):
now.
You bring in some really key points here.
When I, when I, one of the thingsthat kept popping up into my
mind is I kept putting identity.
Equals humanity.
It kept coming in mymind as a photo, right?
Mm-hmm.
And, and, um, uh, sorry, I thinkin pictures, so That's okay.
(12:43):
Um, and so I kept seeing theword identity equals humanity.
Humanity equals identity.
And, and, and so this is definitelyacross the board because there's
like, uh, a numerous conflicts in.
I would say pretty much every regionexcept for maybe Antarctica or maybe
(13:04):
there's something there, we don't know.
Yeah.
Um, and, and, and the thing that ison the table, and I guess it's, um,
uh, there's always been, I guess, uh,wars almost to, since the beginning
of the time or the time that we know.
Right.
Um, but the wars now are, are,are different because they are.
(13:29):
Uh, you're, yes, you're fighting aboutresources like, you know, food and
land, but it's much different now.
It's about, um, I guess ways ofthinking and erasing the individuality.
(13:49):
Of, um, you know,certain groups of people.
Like, um, I, I see itespecially here being in the us.
Like everybody, you can even justsee it, um, and how people react.
But here, I'll take a simple one,like, uh, the cell phone, right?
Like, um, I'm not one of them, but I'man Android user, but that's unusual.
(14:10):
Everybody else is onthe, the iPhone, right?
Mm-hmm.
And mm-hmm.
And everybody is trying to be the same.
The same thing, the same person.
And um, or at leastthat's where it was going.
And then there was a, I don't know if Iwill say a wake up or a crack that people
(14:32):
said, wait just a moment here, right?
Like, it's gone too far.
Like every, you're trying to pusheverybody into the same mold, but.
I can't necessarily fit into that samemold because it just, it doesn't work.
It doesn't, it doesn't work.
And, and, and that is what we'refacing right now in the US and also
(14:55):
globally, because, you know, that was,that's the, I guess the, the constant
push is that they were, everybodywas trying to be fit into this mold.
I'm using kind of, um, um.
As I'm like, uh, thinkinglike, uh, jello moles, right?
Like, you must be this, but thenlet's say, you know, you had too many
quote unquote, I'll just say apples.
(15:18):
Yeah.
To fit, to fit into the mix.
And no matter how you shape it, uh,pull it, it's just not going to work.
And, and I guess why, um, and I'msure you've seen that in your work.
Um, I guess why, um.
Why are we so uncomfortable?
(15:38):
Uh, I'll just say globally that everythingdoesn't have to fit into a mold.
Mm, mm-hmm.
Oh, gosh.
That is, um, a really good question.
I, I don't know that I have the answer.
I mean, I have my perspective on it, butthe way that we treat that question in the
(16:00):
volume is, is really thinking about power.
And, and really thinking about so muchof the violence that we see, if not all
the violence that we see is connectedto power and either trying to get it or
trying to maintain it and identity isthem used as a tool to achieve that goal.
(16:28):
So, like you said, if,if we're all envisioned.
The, the truth is nobody fits the mold.
There is, there is no real mold.
Um, certain people wanna oversimplify,humane and, and say that there is,
but, but that oversimplificationis really just in the eyes of the
(16:49):
perpetrator or of the one with the power.
And, and that is their way ofmaintaining or achieving the means
to their, their own twitches.
It says powers.
Um, and so you think aboutit in a, in a practical way.
Um, take, um, point Michigan as anexample, and there were people who needed
(17:19):
in water, but those with power wanted to,you know, maintain their role on society.
And in order to do so, it meant not seeingthese people as worthy of access to clean
water and not hearing their complaintsas meaningful enough to do something.
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And therefore many people died.
Many more people suffered.
And there was a, there was a reason.
It was this group of people whofell into a perceived identity
group by those of power.
And, and that is an example of whatI've seen worldwide when it comes to
(18:07):
the way you see violenceplay out and, and, and why.
And, and I think maybe, you know,maybe there's a human condition
to protect oneself, but withgreat power comes responsibility.
And so, I don't know.
That's, that's, that's what we would sayis we have to look at, we need to look
(18:30):
at power and we need to look at, um,ensuring that those with power are using
are, are meeting their responsibilityto be inclusive of everyone despite
the fact that nobody fits in the mold.
Yes.
And.
As a, you know, as I'm, I'm, I'mpicturing like, you know, um,
(18:50):
there's so much especially, uh,you know, that we see on the media.
Um, there's so much anger, um, and somany people are feeling, uh, maybe,
uh, uh, there's a mixed feeling.
I, I would sense there's a senseof, uh, lo uh, uh, feeling lost.
But then there's a, a sense of a,a, a want for, um, you know, in
(19:15):
some cases a, a payback, um, mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, um, somepeople on that trajectory.
Um, and some people have justlike, uh, tossed in the towel.
Yeah.
And absolutely.
And, uh, yeah, there is asegment that, uh, um, that I
know have like, run off the Bali.
(19:35):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and so.
But I don't think any of those,uh, uh, three examples is maybe
the right way to deal with it.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I guess why are we, I guessmaybe I should even, uh, take
it out even to another level.
(19:56):
Yes.
You know, there's, of coursehumanity, being human, but do
we need to, because of now, um.
The, the, the world is becoming so muchmore, um, you know, uh, connected daily.
(20:17):
Do we need to have these identity groups?
I guess do we, uh, is, is it, um.
Is it an imperative that I say that, youknow, I am an American, I am a California,
I am a woman, I am, um, you know, uh,um, uh, white, or I am a minority group.
(20:41):
Do we need, do we need to have thesethings or is it better, maybe we throw
out all those identities, or is therea danger in not even having those.
You know, I,
I think it will always be, I thinkpeople inherently want to belong.
Mm-hmm.
And so finding shared identity withothers is a really safe way to do that.
(21:05):
Um, and I don't know thatthat's inherently a bath thing.
Mm-hmm.
I think it's, it's justhuman nature, right?
We, we instinctually need comfortand safety among those that
we know will understand us.
For me, the challenge is when lawbecomes weaponized against them.
So it's not necessarily having anidentity, it's when someone having
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an identity, identity different thanyours becomes a problem and then taken
to the next level where maybe it'snot just a problem, it's a threat.
And then if it's not athreat, it's a disruption.
You know, the, these are the narrativesthat, that get used and, and I.
Think that's where the problem is.
It's not necessary.
(21:51):
We all have multiple identities at once.
Mm-hmm.
And that's the other challenge isthat when it comes to thinking about
systemic mass violence that is rootedin identity, it's because those with
the power to do so are oversimplifyingwhere funny individual belongs, that no
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one belongs to a single identity group.
We're all way too complex and complicatedfor that, but they're abusing you
and making it seem as, as thoughthat's the case and, and that is de
human f So that's really the problem.
It's, I don't think it's a problem thatyou have these multiple identities.
I think it's, personally, I thinkthat's what makes the world beautiful
(22:34):
and it's okay to wanna belong.
It's just not okay to write peopleto, to de human of or to restrict.
Access or safety or people based on, youknow, who, who I made or who, you know, a
certain politician or a certain businessgroup may view as not worthy of the
(22:56):
same human, you know, humanity as they.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, yes, and I, you know, and I, I.
And I, I did kind of the, the, the kindof devil's advocate look, because that
is one of approach that is often, um,you know, uh, brought up is just like
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throw, throw everything out and just,you know, you're, you're, you're you,
I'm me and who cares about the rest.
But those identities, um.
Yes, they're, they'rewhat make us, uh, special.
Um, and what make us want to, I guess, uh,travel to these interesting places because
we want to learn more about that culture,how they, uh, you know, live in that area.
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How they, uh, you know, develop their,their relationships and hopefully, um.
If, uh, if people can, I guess, open uptheir, their minds a bit, um, to what it
really means to be, I guess, a, a human.
(24:04):
And, and do you think that we have, um,has it gotten, do you feel that things
have gotten, um, uh, better or worse fromhow they were, let's say 20 years ago?
Oh, I think it depends.
Mm-hmm.
Um,
I mean, ev and, and that's why lookingat these dynamics through the city
(24:28):
lens or, you know, at the city level?
I think so.
Interesting.
Um, because in some cases it's,it's gotten so much better.
Um, in other places it'sgotten so much worse and, um.
Yeah, I think it, Ithink it really depends.
(24:50):
I also think identity has always been usedover time in history to justify violence
into, you know, whether explicitly orimplicitly if someone seems less human
or less worthy than it was easier to,to commit violence against them, right?
(25:11):
So this is a deliberate tool, um, to.
To justify violence.
But, um, yeah, I mean, I think in theUS certainly the, the role that identity
is playing in further polarizing,inciting political violence, turning
(25:32):
communities against each other.
I mean, I, it's certainlynot been a positive trend.
Um, those of us in theatrocity prevention field have.
I've been sounding that along fora long time, and also Gallup just
recently did a poll, and while globallyconflict and violence are rising, we're
(25:59):
at the highest point of individualsfeeling safe that we ever have been.
So these weird dynamics ofpeople feeling more safe.
On an individual level and in a verypractical, measurable level, there
being more, you know, interstateconflict, more domestic conflict than,
(26:23):
than there has been a recent history.
So it's a, it's a weird timeto be alive, um, for sure.
Hmm.
That, that is a, that's aninteresting statistic because,
um, I guess to feel people.
Feel that they have more autonomynow, maybe because of technology or,
(26:44):
um, the, and what I mean by that, notonly like, you know, obviously having
access to a cell phone, but on that cellphone they're watching, um, you know.
Um, I'll just use, uh, uh, anInstagram, like a Instagram
influencer, go from rags to riches.
(27:04):
Do they feel then that they can, um, that,that can be me too, so I don't have to, I
guess, stick to, stick to the, the script.
The society has given methat now, if I want to.
Uh, you know, go a different directionthat, um, I have the ability to
(27:25):
do that and I have the ability to.
I guess develop my life,um, the way that I want.
Do you think that could be maybe areason that people feel safer or do
you think it's, um, something else?
You know, I would need to diginto the report a little bit more.
Um, but I think it probably dependson where geographically located too.
(27:48):
So I'm sure there aretechnological components.
To it.
I would be completelyhypothesizing if, you know, if I
were to say anything, for sure.
But, but there are places whereviolence has significantly reduced.
And actually even within the UnitedStates, some of our biggest cities
have seen tremendous violencereductions since the pandemic.
(28:09):
So there's, that's why the nuance of,you know, the geographically, but there
were real concerted, concerted efforts.
Um.
To actually make places and cities inparticular safer in the US and worked
and, and there are success stories.
(28:30):
I think it's so, so maybe a surveylike this is, is doing a better
job at getting, you know, to thecommunity level in ways that represent
kind of an individual perspectiveand kind of day-to-day experience.
That that isn't general, because Ithink that that might be a bit different
(28:53):
than the general interest also that,that you've mentioned is present.
Um, and that's in the US context, butalso there are, you know, central and
South America have, have historically hadexceptionally high levels of violence and.
(29:16):
For instance, in certain places, um,there have been real improvements.
I, some of them have been at the expenseof human rights, which is a big problem.
But there are places wherepeople actually feel so much
safer and so it's just a meal.
(29:37):
Again, juxtaposition of somegeneral trends that I think
will likely over time threaten.
That perception of safety,but also real accomplishments.
And I, and that's why it is importantto hold onto the truths of things are
(29:58):
not good, but also the truth of thereare solutions that are working and,
and we, we need to be learning moreabout them and expanding them and.
Implementing them in more places too,because the evidence is right there.
Do you have a certain story that youwould like to share where you saw, um,
(30:19):
like a, a big turnaround from, um, Iguess either an area that, uh, felt
unsafe or where you were seeing, um,different groups that were experiencing,
um, some type of, uh, violence oratrocities, um, and that it was just, um.
I guess that you were just, uh, Iguess, uh, you thought it was remarkable
(30:42):
or it just wowed you from like wherethey started to where they are now?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I could tell one story ofthat is included in, in this book,
which is a story about, um, aprogram that was implemented in
Mexico City, in a neighborhoodthat was known for a lot of re um.
(31:06):
Retributive killings and so, you know,gang violence and, and someone was,
someone's family member or friend wouldbe harmed and then they would, you
know, go back to, to get whoever it was.
And so there was a program thatwas implemented there that is
a common model for violenceinterruption called cease fire.
(31:28):
And it.
Was, it was implemented in strongpartnership with the police
who actually worked to developrelationships, trust, rapport among
the community in this neighborhood.
Um, and, and would, when there wasan incident, would reach out and, and
(31:49):
this is an example that is done in manylocations around the world, but, but
they would, they would go reach out,maybe go to the hospital or go to the
family member and talk to them about.
Cycles of violence and what the optionsare, aside from just going out and
committing another act of violence.
And I'm not gonna be able to give youthe exact percentages of reduction,
(32:14):
um, in violence and in particular inhomicides in this clots neighborhood.
But they were really, reallynoticeable, um, you know, in the, in the
high percentage range.
The, I don't know, I can't give youthe, the number 'cause I'll be wrong
and then you have to cut it anyways.
(32:35):
But, um, but they, they really actuallybuilt relationships with this community
and, and, and it, it goes two ways.
It's both the community memberslearning to trust law enforcement,
which is, it can sometimes be areally hard obstacle to overcome.
And also the, the lawenforcement officers.
(32:57):
Learning to see the community as acommunity of individuals with hearts
and minds who can be engaged withas an, as a fellow human and instead
of, you know, a problem group.
And so the, that combination of, youknow, building these relationships
(33:18):
made this neighborhood safer.
And, and one of the thingsthat the officers said.
In their interview was, you know, we,we used to see this neighborhood as
just the violent neighborhood, andwhen we started looking at the data
and the information, we realized it'sreally a very small group of people in
(33:39):
this neighborhood that are committingthe overwhelming majority of violence.
And so once we figure that out, we couldgo engage with them and we could see them.
As both who we need to work with, butalso who is also creating insecurity
for the rest of their neighborsand the rest of their community.
And so I think it's, it's just a reallygood example of, of taking the time and,
(34:06):
and gaining perspective from, you know,all sides to remember what the goal is
and everybody there wanted to be safe.
It's just the, the waysthat the neighborhood.
Was going about it and wasn'tactually gonna be safety.
So they use an evidence-based approach andit worked, and the neighborhood is safer.
(34:28):
I like that because you went from.
Having, I guess you wouldsay two broad breast strokes.
And what I mean by that is that thepeople in the neighborhood saw the
police like, okay, these are the policethat are, you know, coming here to
crack down, um, but aren't necessarilygetting to the problem and the
police are maybe causing the problem.
(34:50):
And that's how some of the people inthe neighborhood probably thought.
And then the police were thinking like.
You know, this neighborhoodis problematic.
A whole bunch of troublemakers.
But then when they were presented withthe details and it was drilled down that
they could then see that, okay, we'vebeen looking at this the wrong way and we.
(35:14):
Lost perspective because of,it's like a, I guess a classroom
when they have one bad apple.
Mm-hmm.
It says it spoils the bunchin the class with the class.
The whole class isn't bad, it's justthis one bad apple and you know, whoever
this apple touches infects, essentially.
Yeah.
And so they had lost that ability to havea perspective, but then once presented
(35:38):
the data, then it let them become.
I guess I'll just say quote unquotehuman again and start looking at these
neighborhoods as individual people whoare not necessarily contributing to the
problem, and then it allowed them to.
Start thinking, okay, we can findour people who, you know, want the
(36:03):
same thing, the same ideals as us.
Mm-hmm.
And this is a perfect exampleof what needs to go on today,
across, across the board.
Um, I completely agree with.
And, um, and it's so easy becauseright there, even if we break
it down into identities, right?
So the police, they have the identitythat, you know, we're supposed to, you
(36:27):
know, um, uh, tell the law, protect.
Uh, you know, the, the people who arehaving these horrible things happen to
them and, you know, and, uh, the buckstops here having that kind of I identity.
And then, um, and then of course they havetheir individuals, but sometimes that, um.
(36:49):
You know, especially when it comes towork, that identity makes you forget all
the other ones that you carry as well.
Um, and so we, I will say just, um.
I think it's just, uh,probably general, right?
Because we're all running through ourlives that we just take the identity
(37:10):
that we have to deal with the day inand day out, and then we forget to
hone in and really look at each other.
As you know, you are, youhave things just like me.
Yes, we have differences, butwhen it comes down to the core.
We're all just trying toget to the same thing.
We all just want to, uh, get throughthe day, um, you know, uh, work
(37:37):
to be the best person that we can.
Um, uh, you know, if we have families,uh, you know, take care of them or,
uh, you know, all of us are somepart of some kind of, uh, family,
whether you know together or not.
Um.
And, you know, so we want to, and thenof course eat, take care of ourselves
and, you know, be overall fairly happy.
(38:00):
I don't think there's anyone on theplanet is that isn't looking for that.
Um, and if we could just remember that,um, that would make it a lot easier.
Like we're just trying toall get through the day.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Essentially, um.
And it's so sad too, and I, I startedthinking when you were talking about
(38:21):
how, um, you know, how there are areasthat have, you know, had significant,
um, you know, uh, um, increase of,you know, great things happening, but.
Uh, we might be, or I guess we arebeing led down this trail to just
think it's, uh, all doom and gloom.
Yeah.
Um, and, and it's specificallydisheartening after we were just
(38:45):
all literally locked down for years.
So, and, and, and, and really felt.
In that time when we were locked down,um, the need for each other, like when you
couldn't go out and see your friend fordinner, when you couldn't go, you know,
say hello to your best friend anymore whenyou couldn't go see your newborn niece.
(39:09):
Um, and we had that sucha craving for humanity.
And then now.
The proverbial doors have openedagain that we can go say to your
friend and see, you know, let's havedinner and see your family again.
We now want to shut the doors down,down, um, because somebody has told
(39:32):
us that, you know, um, they aren'ton the same team and it's, and, and
it's a, and it's amazing that such a.
It's like a light switch could go off thatsoon after we experience such, uh, trauma.
But, you know, um, I guess not to getinto the psychology of it, you know,
(39:55):
I don't know if that's like a, fromthat we're all like a, a, a suffering
the actor effects of a trauma andjust don't know how to, to process.
The emotions.
And so it's just coming out like, uh,in all different directions, easy,
I think.
I don't know either.
(40:15):
Um, and I shouldn't get anycredit or be trusted on, on
anything related to psychology.
But, but, but I do know that that is trueand also there's intention behind that.
And sometimes I think, um, it's reallyconvenient for people with power.
Where we take all theresponsibility of the problems.
(40:38):
But like you said, there are people withpower and intents who are reinforcing that
polarization and that distrust and the,the dehumanization between groups and,
um, the media does get more attention whenit's the negative versus the positive.
(40:58):
And so it's really importantthat as individuals.
We take that moment, um, you know, takethat breath or take that step back to
gain perspective and also hold thoseto account who are working against.
And that human tend are to connect.
Yes.
(41:18):
Yeah.
So now to take it, the conversation toa higher level and to look at it from a
global perspective, um, because of allof these, uh, you know, local and uh, uh.
I'll say country conflicts, um, and,uh, all the things that are going on,
(41:43):
it's making us miss one of the importantthings that we need to, um, really start
considering in the next, uh, decadehere as a, I would say, planet, um, uh.
All these identity conflicts and um, um,and sort of like, you know, this is mine.
(42:04):
This is yours is leading us to forget thatwe also need to take care of just our,
our daily living in our, our, our planet.
Um, our planet is in,uh, in grave trouble.
Um, and what I mean by that, we'rehaving troubles in, um, you know, uh.
I guess the easiest one is we seefor the climate, um, which then
(42:29):
is affecting us, um, for our food.
Um, it's affecting,uh, how, where we live.
Uh, that's another thingthat's causing people to have
to have displacement, right?
So, you know, maybe we're in one region,but now you have to leave because
now this region floods all the time.
Uh, you no longer can,you know, grow food here.
(42:51):
Um.
And so, uh, the people that are inanother region, um, are experiencing
an influx of people coming.
Um, and then they have to adjust,um, to these new people and.
Um, I guess you would say it'san exchange of identities and a
(43:11):
loss of identities, and it's allbeing caused by inner conflicts.
Um, and, um, it's, uh, effects.
And so how would you say that, uh.
The broader problem now, um,of, uh, climate change is
being affected by identities.
(43:32):
And I know this is a big question.
This is also, I'll say, this is a, um,uh, uh, the beauty pageant question.
Um, and, you know, how do you allthese identities, um, they're,
it's like a ping pong ball.
Like they're, they're, they're causingeffects, um, on the planet at a, at
(43:53):
a. At a monumental, uh, uh, scale.
Right?
Um, if we look at the SCG, uh, 2030goals that we're supposed to achieve
in five years, which doesn't looklike we're going to make it there,
um, I guess how, what can we do?
Or how do we, like, what do wehave to do to save ourselves?
(44:13):
Mm-hmm.
I, I'll just put it there.
How do we save ourselves becauseof these, uh, identity conflicts?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a huge question.
I
know.
It is a, it is a huge question.
I mean, I, I, I think the, it'sfunny though because the, it's
big question really feels like,
(44:35):
I'm gonna oversimplify this, but, butif policymakers and businesses and
communities aren't thinking about.
How these groups of people with theirdifferent identities are going to see
(44:56):
in their community and what that meansif they at considering identity and
considering that there are productiveways to manage these conditions and that
there are unproductive and dangerousways to manage these conditions, then.
There won't be the appropriate solutions.
(45:18):
So pi a moving in and out of urbanareas is not a new phenomenon.
However, we have more people livingin urban areas than ever before.
The world is rapidly urbanizing andit's because of all of these changes
that you've said, internal comforts,climate change, um, need for job
(45:40):
economy, uh, all, all of these issues.
And so it, it needs to be a policyconsideration what that the role of
identity means, and those, what, what,what I think the content in this book
would suggest is that the policy decisionsneed to take into account the structural
(46:04):
conditions that make access to basichuman needs, equitable for everyone.
Um, and that's a simple idea of it.
But it's certainly complicated.
Um, and it can be done because humansare actually quite exceptional at
breaking down boundaries and barriersand coming up with solutions.
(46:26):
Uh, but we need the right people withthe power to influence those discussions
and those policies to be in place.
Yes, I like, I I like your answer.
It's simple.
Straight to the straightto the point, and.
Um, I guess in, in some waysobvious, and it's just the, and it's
the thing that, um, I don't know.
(46:47):
We just can't seem to dothe, the straight thing.
I don't know why I've never beenable to figure to figure that out.
But, um, but I, I know it has, uh, thingsto do with power and all of that, but,
uh, just to do the straight thing, itwould be interesting if we just did the
straight thing to see just for once.
(47:08):
You know, um, uh, how, how, how it works.
I would just love to see it.
Yeah.
Um, and, uh, and you know, wemight be even, uh, more amazed
than we could ever imagine.
I think you're right.
A lot of that comes down to listening,and the listening is really part of that.
(47:29):
And, um, communities, that communitiesare actually exceptional at working
together and knowing what they need and.
Um, and so listening to them andunderstanding and, and holding, you
know, respecting what, what is beingsaid, what is being heard, what is
(47:49):
being experienced, and really thinkingwith communities, um, about how to meet
this moment is, is really essential.
And, um, and I think again, itkind of comes back whole circle
to this, how we started off that.
People are leaving peacefully together.
All over us.
All around us.
I mean, and we can look at that and wecan use that as a beacon of hope for
(48:14):
the possibility to do the right thing.
We just have to be mindful abouthow we're, how we're getting there.
But it, it's not as
complicated as it seems, as, assome people wanna make it sound.
Mm-hmm.
And that's nice to know.
And, uh, my final question because,uh, we find ourselves with the younger
(48:39):
generation, that is just, uh, I would say.
Uh, probably getting intocollege or coming out of college.
Um, uh, a lot of them are a little bitscared and feeling, um, you know, uh,
hopeless a little bit about the worldbecause they've been paying attention
to the news they've experienced, uh,being locked down and didn't get to go
(49:01):
to their own high school graduations andproms and all of those kind of things.
And so.
Um, you know, uh, I would say they'reprobably a little bit of, uh, shaken up.
Um, so what would you say to the youngergeneration about, uh, both, you know,
(49:21):
I guess, uh, appreciating their inditheir own identities, but, um, how to,
I guess, look forward to the future?
Like, uh, since they're going tobe, uh, the next people leading
us, what would you say to them?
I would say there's a reason tobe hopeful, and it's also totally
(49:45):
understandable how they're feeling.
And the only way we're gonnaget through this is together.
I think on a like that, that would be likemy core message that, you know, like it's
very valid how, how they're experiencing.
It's the world right now.
(50:06):
And, and there's a lot of reasons forus to be optimistic and, and to, uh, we
have to, we have to find some balance in,in holding the real desperate challenges
that we're facing while also understandingthat humans have overcome horrible
things before, and you will again.
(50:26):
Um, and we can learn from that and,and we can continue to make progress.
I mean.
There's always a tendency to wanna go backto something that felt more comfortable.
But the truth is there was a lot thatneeded to be fixed, even when things
felt more comfortable for some people.
So I think it's also possible to reframethis moment as an opportunity and,
(50:52):
and, uh, I mean, uh, you haveto be careful with that because
it is scary to come out of acollege and, and not have a job.
Um, but also our youth are soincredible and innovative and
creative and so it's gonna take alot of teamwork and collaboration
for us to move out of this moment.
(51:13):
But I have a lot of faith that, thatwe will, and that, you know, those of
us with, with old frameworks in mindwho are carrying our own conditioning
also need to let up a little bit andallow some new frameworks center.
And new ways of being with oneanother enter and, um, in a challenged
(51:36):
some of the norms that that worked.
Okay.
Um, it didn't work well in us, so,uh, yeah, we're just gonna have
to hunker down and do it together.
Yes.
We're on this ball together.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Um, thank you Jai-Ayla.
For your, uh, time and insight.
To learn more, go to stanley center.org.
(51:58):
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem,
or want to change minds contactproject, good work@projectgood.work.
To start your project of Changetoday, subscribe to our mailing list.
At Project good.work/subscribeto get our episodes and blog
articles sent to you each month.
To our listeners, thanks fortuning in to Project Good.
(52:19):
We're a focus on what matters.
Hello and welcome to theProject Good podcast.
I'm your host, Annmarie Hylton.
Project Good is a social impact podcast,interviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is to inspirepeople and organizations to develop a
mindset that can move others to positiveaction regarding the conflict, social
(00:23):
issues facing people, and the planet.
For December, we're focusedon identity violence.
Every day people's lives aredefined and sometimes destroyed
because of who they are, where theycome from, or what they believe.
We have been living it and experiencingit daily in the media when our
differences are turned into divisions.
(00:44):
In today's conversation, we willunpack how identity based conflict
takes root, why it persists, whatit takes to build societies where
diversity isn't a trigger for violence,but a foundation for strength.
It is my pleasure to introduce ourguest, Jai-Ayla Sutherland, who is a
program manager and officer of MassViolence and Atrocities of the Stanley
(01:07):
Center for Peace and Security, where shesupports efforts to build resilience in
the worst kinds of violence by workingwith representatives from governments,
civil society, and the private sectorto develop networks and promote
evidence-based prevention strategies.
She's worked in North America, southAmerica, Europe, Africa, and Asia.
Has experienced conducting researchon the roots of violence and conflict
(01:30):
in Africa and the Middle East, andanalyzing structural needs and policy
approaches to preventing mass atrocities.
She has a master's in internationalsecurity from the University of
Denver, along with a degree ininternational relations from the
University of Southern California.
Let's get into the interview
(01:57):
For more than 65 years, the StanleyCenter for Peace and Security has
brought together members of the globalcommunity to exchange ideas, foster
innovation, and take collective action.
The Stanley Center drivespolicy in three issue areas.
Mitigating climate change, avoidingthe use of nuclear weapons and
preventing mass violence and atrocities.
(02:20):
Today I have the pleasure of diving intoour discussion with Jai-Ayla Sutherland,
who has dedicated her professional lifeto helping humanity welcome Jai-Ayla.
Hi there.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yes.
I'm so excited about this conversationbecause I think it is absolutely timely
in the way, um, the world is shapingout these days and what we're facing
(02:44):
on, uh, not only a local level inthe UI United States, but globally.
But before we dive into all the insand outs of how we're going to get
through that, um, I always like to knowa little bit about the person that I'm
interviewing and understand who they areand how their heart developed in life.
(03:07):
So what would you say drove youto get into this career space?
Yeah,
yeah.
No, that's a very good question.
Um, well I am, I'm from Wyoming.
I was born and raised in Wyomingand I actually live in Wyoming now.
But I think because, you know, relativelyspeaking, Wyoming is, is very rural.
(03:30):
Um, it's not super diverse and uh,I think it's a lot of people will
maybe lovingly say Wyoming is alwaysabout 10 to 20 years behind the curve.
Um.
I think I just had a lot of curiosityabout the world, and so when I had
(03:52):
the opportunity to go away for school,I actually got really interested in
international relations just generally,and really wanted to extend my
horizons and see more of the world,understand more of the world, meet
people who are different from the self.
And I think that coupled with, uh.
(04:16):
Core value of equality, um, you know,belief in humanity, belief in in goodness.
And, and I guess the two of those reallykind of came together and, and here I
am, you know, 10 years with the standardcenter and focused on believing that
we can do better as groups of people.
(04:39):
That peace is very much possible andpeace is actually around us all the time.
And so it's worth, um, working on thisand, and shedding Tide on ways that,
that we can continue to, to bringour peace and guesses to the world.
Wow.
I, I love that you, you've broughtin something I didn't think of, but
(05:01):
I think it's important that you saidpeace is around us all the time.
Mm-hmm.
And that's something I thinkpeople are not feeling.
Um, but, but it's important forpeople to not forget that because.
Um, unfortunately, um, you know, welived in a world that is so digitally
connected and there's so much news mm-hmm.
(05:23):
Um, coming to you every single moment of,you know, this horrible thing is happening
and this horrible thing is happening that,you know, internally, a lot of people, of
course, are feeling anxiety, um, nervous,scared, a, a bunch of different things.
Um, and so.
That is a good thing to saythat, and it's a good reminder
(05:46):
that peace is always around us.
Um, it's just, that'ssomething we have to choose.
Absolutely.
And it's, it's not to diminish a veryreality of that stress and violence
and oppression and marginalizationthat so many people feel it.
It was, no, not in any way todiminish or overlook that, but
(06:07):
I, I agree that when people.
I feel disheartened or hopeless or scared.
There are always examples that wecan look to of, of where peace is
possible and peace is happening.
And that actually connects to thiswork because we were really intentional
(06:29):
in pulling together not just anassessment of the problems, but a
deep listen analysis of the solutionsthat's that exist here and now.
And, and what we can learn to bringmore of those to, to bear for more
people in an inclusive and just way.
Now there's of course so many different,different segments that you could
(06:52):
have taken with your career when itcomes to international relations.
Um, I guess what initially drove you tofocus on identity, uh, based violence
and how it connects to, I guess.
Um, everything.
I
can't necessarily claimthat it was intentional.
(07:13):
I think I always, so, so for mepersonally, and, and I wanna make it
clear that as I'm one part of so manypeople and con editor and a team of
four editors who, who have brought thistogether, so I'm, I'm one small part of,
of a really impressive career of people.
(07:34):
Um, who have brought this work tothe world, um, to, just with that
disclaimer in mind, for me personally,um, I, I studied international security
in grad school because I didn't knowenough about it, and I very much
came, um, a perspective of peacebuilding and curiosity about what it.
(07:55):
Uh, curiosity and belief that you knowthat there is inherent goodness in all
of us and the the peace is possible.
And, and I also knew that the powerstructures around, you know, security
infrastructure and military and theway the world considers security were
something that I didn't fully understand.
And so when it was time for me togo to grad school, um, I thought it
(08:19):
would be good for me to learn andtaught something I didn't go about.
And so that I could couple that with.
What I felt like I was learning, itturned out when you go to grad school,
a lot of people keep learning aboutsomething they already knew about.
So I didn't exactly realize whatI was doing to myself, but, but
when I think what that did for mewas bring me into a space from a
(08:40):
completely different perspective.
And, and I really found myself aligningwith the idea that security is much
broader than what is commonly a, afairly narrow and, and really important.
Piece of security, which is, youknow, protection of borders and
protection of, you know, internationalsovereignty and, and military's
(09:04):
thought and practice and strategy.
And for me, I've just always thoughtof security in a much more expansive
manner, which is aligned with kindof the hearing security philosophy.
So, so that's the way thatI envision security now.
Um, and I think that took me.
Into what really was just, you know, thea, a really great job opportunity with the
(09:28):
Stanley Center where that, where I couldex continue to expand and understand how,
how I personally think about security,but also like what securities now was
to re to peoples who are living in away that doesn't feel safe or secure.
And, and so the work that I was doing.
(09:49):
At the time was really focused on theresponsibility to protect, which is
a global norm around, you know, the,the countries of the world and their
responsibility to both prevent massatrocities, uh, at home, towards elected
needed to prevent atrocities, uh, abroad.
(10:11):
And to react when there are atrocitiesoccurring and, and people who don't
have the ability to access safety andsecurity need assistance from outside.
So we were really focused on that and,and what I learned through that work
was that in so many mass atrocitiesidentity really is at the core of it.
(10:32):
And that's because.
To commit violence onthat large of a scale.
In most cases, it requiresdehumanizing a certain group of
people or certain groups of people.
And so that background in thinkingabout the role of identity in
(10:55):
these mass scale conflicts.
Coupled with work that we werestarting to explore with experts
in carbon violence reduction.
And we started having conversationswith them, well, what are you working on
in terms of venturing of, in a mass orkarmic violence at the the urban bubble?
(11:15):
And when we had those conversations,we realized we were really having
a very similar conversationwhen it came to solutions.
And it was orientedaround equality justice.
Equal access, equal opportunities tolive a safe, secure life with a good job.
(11:35):
You know, free from fear orreduced fear about whether new
kids can get to school safely.
Um, and so that's really where that cruxof this idea came together and we said it
needs to start thinking about identity.
At not just the international relationslevel, but also the way that identity
(11:58):
shows up in communities and how thosewith power, ease, or abuse, um, their
perceptions of identity to eitherinclude or exclude people from that,
um, those equal opportunities and, andthe inherent right that we believe that
everybody has to security and safety
(12:20):
now.
You bring in some really key points here.
When I, when I, one of the thingsthat kept popping up into my
mind is I kept putting identity.
Equals humanity.
It kept coming in mymind as a photo, right?
Mm-hmm.
And, and, um, uh, sorry, I thinkin pictures, so That's okay.
(12:43):
Um, and so I kept seeing theword identity equals humanity.
Humanity equals identity.
And, and, and so this is definitelyacross the board because there's
like, uh, a numerous conflicts in.
I would say pretty much every regionexcept for maybe Antarctica or maybe
(13:04):
there's something there, we don't know.
Yeah.
Um, and, and, and the thing that ison the table, and I guess it's, um,
uh, there's always been, I guess, uh,wars almost to, since the beginning
of the time or the time that we know.
Right.
Um, but the wars now are, are,are different because they are.
(13:29):
Uh, you're, yes, you're fighting aboutresources like, you know, food and
land, but it's much different now.
It's about, um, I guess ways ofthinking and erasing the individuality.
(13:49):
Of, um, you know,certain groups of people.
Like, um, I, I see itespecially here being in the us.
Like everybody, you can even justsee it, um, and how people react.
But here, I'll take a simple one,like, uh, the cell phone, right?
Like, um, I'm not one of them, but I'man Android user, but that's unusual.
(14:10):
Everybody else is onthe, the iPhone, right?
Mm-hmm.
And mm-hmm.
And everybody is trying to be the same.
The same thing, the same person.
And um, or at leastthat's where it was going.
And then there was a, I don't know if Iwill say a wake up or a crack that people
(14:32):
said, wait just a moment here, right?
Like, it's gone too far.
Like every, you're trying to pusheverybody into the same mold, but.
I can't necessarily fit into that samemold because it just, it doesn't work.
It doesn't, it doesn't work.
And, and, and that is what we'refacing right now in the US and also
(14:55):
globally, because, you know, that was,that's the, I guess the, the constant
push is that they were, everybodywas trying to be fit into this mold.
I'm using kind of, um, um.
As I'm like, uh, thinkinglike, uh, jello moles, right?
Like, you must be this, but thenlet's say, you know, you had too many
quote unquote, I'll just say apples.
(15:18):
Yeah.
To fit, to fit into the mix.
And no matter how you shape it, uh,pull it, it's just not going to work.
And, and I guess why, um, and I'msure you've seen that in your work.
Um, I guess why, um.
Why are we so uncomfortable?
(15:38):
Uh, I'll just say globally that everythingdoesn't have to fit into a mold.
Mm, mm-hmm.
Oh, gosh.
That is, um, a really good question.
I, I don't know that I have the answer.
I mean, I have my perspective on it, butthe way that we treat that question in the
(16:00):
volume is, is really thinking about power.
And, and really thinking about so muchof the violence that we see, if not all
the violence that we see is connectedto power and either trying to get it or
trying to maintain it and identity isthem used as a tool to achieve that goal.
(16:28):
So, like you said, if,if we're all envisioned.
The, the truth is nobody fits the mold.
There is, there is no real mold.
Um, certain people wanna oversimplify,humane and, and say that there is,
but, but that oversimplificationis really just in the eyes of the
(16:49):
perpetrator or of the one with the power.
And, and that is their way ofmaintaining or achieving the means
to their, their own twitches.
It says powers.
Um, and so you think aboutit in a, in a practical way.
Um, take, um, point Michigan as anexample, and there were people who needed
(17:19):
in water, but those with power wanted to,you know, maintain their role on society.
And in order to do so, it meant not seeingthese people as worthy of access to clean
water and not hearing their complaintsas meaningful enough to do something.
(17:42):
And therefore many people died.
Many more people suffered.
And there was a, there was a reason.
It was this group of people whofell into a perceived identity
group by those of power.
And, and that is an example of whatI've seen worldwide when it comes to
(18:07):
the way you see violenceplay out and, and, and why.
And, and I think maybe, you know,maybe there's a human condition
to protect oneself, but withgreat power comes responsibility.
And so, I don't know.
That's, that's, that's what we would sayis we have to look at, we need to look
(18:30):
at power and we need to look at, um,ensuring that those with power are using
are, are meeting their responsibilityto be inclusive of everyone despite
the fact that nobody fits in the mold.
Yes.
And.
As a, you know, as I'm, I'm, I'mpicturing like, you know, um,
(18:50):
there's so much especially, uh,you know, that we see on the media.
Um, there's so much anger, um, and somany people are feeling, uh, maybe,
uh, uh, there's a mixed feeling.
I, I would sense there's a senseof, uh, lo uh, uh, feeling lost.
But then there's a, a sense of a,a, a want for, um, you know, in
(19:15):
some cases a, a payback, um, mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, um, somepeople on that trajectory.
Um, and some people have justlike, uh, tossed in the towel.
Yeah.
And absolutely.
And, uh, yeah, there is asegment that, uh, um, that I
know have like, run off the Bali.
(19:35):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and so.
But I don't think any of those,uh, uh, three examples is maybe
the right way to deal with it.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I guess why are we, I guessmaybe I should even, uh, take
it out even to another level.
(19:56):
Yes.
You know, there's, of coursehumanity, being human, but do
we need to, because of now, um.
The, the, the world is becoming so muchmore, um, you know, uh, connected daily.
(20:17):
Do we need to have these identity groups?
I guess do we, uh, is, is it, um.
Is it an imperative that I say that, youknow, I am an American, I am a California,
I am a woman, I am, um, you know, uh,um, uh, white, or I am a minority group.
(20:41):
Do we need, do we need to have thesethings or is it better, maybe we throw
out all those identities, or is therea danger in not even having those.
You know, I,
I think it will always be, I thinkpeople inherently want to belong.
Mm-hmm.
And so finding shared identity withothers is a really safe way to do that.
(21:05):
Um, and I don't know thatthat's inherently a bath thing.
Mm-hmm.
I think it's, it's justhuman nature, right?
We, we instinctually need comfortand safety among those that
we know will understand us.
For me, the challenge is when lawbecomes weaponized against them.
So it's not necessarily having anidentity, it's when someone having
(21:29):
an identity, identity different thanyours becomes a problem and then taken
to the next level where maybe it'snot just a problem, it's a threat.
And then if it's not athreat, it's a disruption.
You know, the, these are the narrativesthat, that get used and, and I.
Think that's where the problem is.
It's not necessary.
(21:51):
We all have multiple identities at once.
Mm-hmm.
And that's the other challenge isthat when it comes to thinking about
systemic mass violence that is rootedin identity, it's because those with
the power to do so are oversimplifyingwhere funny individual belongs, that no
(22:12):
one belongs to a single identity group.
We're all way too complex and complicatedfor that, but they're abusing you
and making it seem as, as thoughthat's the case and, and that is de
human f So that's really the problem.
It's, I don't think it's a problem thatyou have these multiple identities.
I think it's, personally, I thinkthat's what makes the world beautiful
(22:34):
and it's okay to wanna belong.
It's just not okay to write peopleto, to de human of or to restrict.
Access or safety or people based on, youknow, who, who I made or who, you know, a
certain politician or a certain businessgroup may view as not worthy of the
(22:56):
same human, you know, humanity as they.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, yes, and I, you know, and I, I.
And I, I did kind of the, the, the kindof devil's advocate look, because that
is one of approach that is often, um,you know, uh, brought up is just like
(23:17):
throw, throw everything out and just,you know, you're, you're, you're you,
I'm me and who cares about the rest.
But those identities, um.
Yes, they're, they'rewhat make us, uh, special.
Um, and what make us want to, I guess, uh,travel to these interesting places because
we want to learn more about that culture,how they, uh, you know, live in that area.
(23:43):
How they, uh, you know, develop their,their relationships and hopefully, um.
If, uh, if people can, I guess, open uptheir, their minds a bit, um, to what it
really means to be, I guess, a, a human.
(24:04):
And, and do you think that we have, um,has it gotten, do you feel that things
have gotten, um, uh, better or worse fromhow they were, let's say 20 years ago?
Oh, I think it depends.
Mm-hmm.
Um,
I mean, ev and, and that's why lookingat these dynamics through the city
(24:28):
lens or, you know, at the city level?
I think so.
Interesting.
Um, because in some cases it's,it's gotten so much better.
Um, in other places it'sgotten so much worse and, um.
Yeah, I think it, Ithink it really depends.
(24:50):
I also think identity has always been usedover time in history to justify violence
into, you know, whether explicitly orimplicitly if someone seems less human
or less worthy than it was easier to,to commit violence against them, right?
(25:11):
So this is a deliberate tool, um, to.
To justify violence.
But, um, yeah, I mean, I think in theUS certainly the, the role that identity
is playing in further polarizing,inciting political violence, turning
(25:32):
communities against each other.
I mean, I, it's certainlynot been a positive trend.
Um, those of us in theatrocity prevention field have.
I've been sounding that along fora long time, and also Gallup just
recently did a poll, and while globallyconflict and violence are rising, we're
(25:59):
at the highest point of individualsfeeling safe that we ever have been.
So these weird dynamics ofpeople feeling more safe.
On an individual level and in a verypractical, measurable level, there
being more, you know, interstateconflict, more domestic conflict than,
(26:23):
than there has been a recent history.
So it's a, it's a weird timeto be alive, um, for sure.
Hmm.
That, that is a, that's aninteresting statistic because,
um, I guess to feel people.
Feel that they have more autonomynow, maybe because of technology or,
(26:44):
um, the, and what I mean by that, notonly like, you know, obviously having
access to a cell phone, but on that cellphone they're watching, um, you know.
Um, I'll just use, uh, uh, anInstagram, like a Instagram
influencer, go from rags to riches.
(27:04):
Do they feel then that they can, um, that,that can be me too, so I don't have to, I
guess, stick to, stick to the, the script.
The society has given methat now, if I want to.
Uh, you know, go a different directionthat, um, I have the ability to
(27:25):
do that and I have the ability to.
I guess develop my life,um, the way that I want.
Do you think that could be maybe areason that people feel safer or do
you think it's, um, something else?
You know, I would need to diginto the report a little bit more.
Um, but I think it probably dependson where geographically located too.
(27:48):
So I'm sure there aretechnological components.
To it.
I would be completelyhypothesizing if, you know, if I
were to say anything, for sure.
But, but there are places whereviolence has significantly reduced.
And actually even within the UnitedStates, some of our biggest cities
have seen tremendous violencereductions since the pandemic.
(28:09):
So there's, that's why the nuance of,you know, the geographically, but there
were real concerted, concerted efforts.
Um.
To actually make places and cities inparticular safer in the US and worked
and, and there are success stories.
(28:30):
I think it's so, so maybe a surveylike this is, is doing a better
job at getting, you know, to thecommunity level in ways that represent
kind of an individual perspectiveand kind of day-to-day experience.
That that isn't general, because Ithink that that might be a bit different
(28:53):
than the general interest also that,that you've mentioned is present.
Um, and that's in the US context, butalso there are, you know, central and
South America have, have historically hadexceptionally high levels of violence and.
(29:16):
For instance, in certain places, um,there have been real improvements.
I, some of them have been at the expenseof human rights, which is a big problem.
But there are places wherepeople actually feel so much
safer and so it's just a meal.
(29:37):
Again, juxtaposition of somegeneral trends that I think
will likely over time threaten.
That perception of safety,but also real accomplishments.
And I, and that's why it is importantto hold onto the truths of things are
(29:58):
not good, but also the truth of thereare solutions that are working and,
and we, we need to be learning moreabout them and expanding them and.
Implementing them in more places too,because the evidence is right there.
Do you have a certain story that youwould like to share where you saw, um,
(30:19):
like a, a big turnaround from, um, Iguess either an area that, uh, felt
unsafe or where you were seeing, um,different groups that were experiencing,
um, some type of, uh, violence oratrocities, um, and that it was just, um.
I guess that you were just, uh, Iguess, uh, you thought it was remarkable
(30:42):
or it just wowed you from like wherethey started to where they are now?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I could tell one story ofthat is included in, in this book,
which is a story about, um, aprogram that was implemented in
Mexico City, in a neighborhoodthat was known for a lot of re um.
(31:06):
Retributive killings and so, you know,gang violence and, and someone was,
someone's family member or friend wouldbe harmed and then they would, you
know, go back to, to get whoever it was.
And so there was a program thatwas implemented there that is
a common model for violenceinterruption called cease fire.
(31:28):
And it.
Was, it was implemented in strongpartnership with the police
who actually worked to developrelationships, trust, rapport among
the community in this neighborhood.
Um, and, and would, when there wasan incident, would reach out and, and
(31:49):
this is an example that is done in manylocations around the world, but, but
they would, they would go reach out,maybe go to the hospital or go to the
family member and talk to them about.
Cycles of violence and what the optionsare, aside from just going out and
committing another act of violence.
And I'm not gonna be able to give youthe exact percentages of reduction,
(32:14):
um, in violence and in particular inhomicides in this clots neighborhood.
But they were really, reallynoticeable, um, you know, in the, in the
high percentage range.
The, I don't know, I can't give youthe, the number 'cause I'll be wrong
and then you have to cut it anyways.
(32:35):
But, um, but they, they really actuallybuilt relationships with this community
and, and, and it, it goes two ways.
It's both the community memberslearning to trust law enforcement,
which is, it can sometimes be areally hard obstacle to overcome.
And also the, the lawenforcement officers.
(32:57):
Learning to see the community as acommunity of individuals with hearts
and minds who can be engaged withas an, as a fellow human and instead
of, you know, a problem group.
And so the, that combination of, youknow, building these relationships
(33:18):
made this neighborhood safer.
And, and one of the thingsthat the officers said.
In their interview was, you know, we,we used to see this neighborhood as
just the violent neighborhood, andwhen we started looking at the data
and the information, we realized it'sreally a very small group of people in
(33:39):
this neighborhood that are committingthe overwhelming majority of violence.
And so once we figure that out, we couldgo engage with them and we could see them.
As both who we need to work with, butalso who is also creating insecurity
for the rest of their neighborsand the rest of their community.
And so I think it's, it's just a reallygood example of, of taking the time and,
(34:06):
and gaining perspective from, you know,all sides to remember what the goal is
and everybody there wanted to be safe.
It's just the, the waysthat the neighborhood.
Was going about it and wasn'tactually gonna be safety.
So they use an evidence-based approach andit worked, and the neighborhood is safer.
(34:28):
I like that because you went from.
Having, I guess you wouldsay two broad breast strokes.
And what I mean by that is that thepeople in the neighborhood saw the
police like, okay, these are the policethat are, you know, coming here to
crack down, um, but aren't necessarilygetting to the problem and the
police are maybe causing the problem.
(34:50):
And that's how some of the people inthe neighborhood probably thought.
And then the police were thinking like.
You know, this neighborhoodis problematic.
A whole bunch of troublemakers.
But then when they were presented withthe details and it was drilled down that
they could then see that, okay, we'vebeen looking at this the wrong way and we.
(35:14):
Lost perspective because of,it's like a, I guess a classroom
when they have one bad apple.
Mm-hmm.
It says it spoils the bunchin the class with the class.
The whole class isn't bad, it's justthis one bad apple and you know, whoever
this apple touches infects, essentially.
Yeah.
And so they had lost that ability to havea perspective, but then once presented
(35:38):
the data, then it let them become.
I guess I'll just say quote unquotehuman again and start looking at these
neighborhoods as individual people whoare not necessarily contributing to the
problem, and then it allowed them to.
Start thinking, okay, we can findour people who, you know, want the
(36:03):
same thing, the same ideals as us.
Mm-hmm.
And this is a perfect exampleof what needs to go on today,
across, across the board.
Um, I completely agree with.
And, um, and it's so easy becauseright there, even if we break
it down into identities, right?
So the police, they have the identitythat, you know, we're supposed to, you
(36:27):
know, um, uh, tell the law, protect.
Uh, you know, the, the people who arehaving these horrible things happen to
them and, you know, and, uh, the buckstops here having that kind of I identity.
And then, um, and then of course they havetheir individuals, but sometimes that, um.
(36:49):
You know, especially when it comes towork, that identity makes you forget all
the other ones that you carry as well.
Um, and so we, I will say just, um.
I think it's just, uh,probably general, right?
Because we're all running through ourlives that we just take the identity
(37:10):
that we have to deal with the day inand day out, and then we forget to
hone in and really look at each other.
As you know, you are, youhave things just like me.
Yes, we have differences, butwhen it comes down to the core.
We're all just trying toget to the same thing.
We all just want to, uh, get throughthe day, um, you know, uh, work
(37:37):
to be the best person that we can.
Um, uh, you know, if we have families,uh, you know, take care of them or,
uh, you know, all of us are somepart of some kind of, uh, family,
whether you know together or not.
Um.
And, you know, so we want to, and thenof course eat, take care of ourselves
and, you know, be overall fairly happy.
(38:00):
I don't think there's anyone on theplanet is that isn't looking for that.
Um, and if we could just remember that,um, that would make it a lot easier.
Like we're just trying toall get through the day.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Essentially, um.
And it's so sad too, and I, I startedthinking when you were talking about
(38:21):
how, um, you know, how there are areasthat have, you know, had significant,
um, you know, uh, um, increase of,you know, great things happening, but.
Uh, we might be, or I guess we arebeing led down this trail to just
think it's, uh, all doom and gloom.
Yeah.
Um, and, and it's specificallydisheartening after we were just
(38:45):
all literally locked down for years.
So, and, and, and, and really felt.
In that time when we were locked down,um, the need for each other, like when you
couldn't go out and see your friend fordinner, when you couldn't go, you know,
say hello to your best friend anymore whenyou couldn't go see your newborn niece.
(39:09):
Um, and we had that sucha craving for humanity.
And then now.
The proverbial doors have openedagain that we can go say to your
friend and see, you know, let's havedinner and see your family again.
We now want to shut the doors down,down, um, because somebody has told
(39:32):
us that, you know, um, they aren'ton the same team and it's, and, and
it's a, and it's amazing that such a.
It's like a light switch could go off thatsoon after we experience such, uh, trauma.
But, you know, um, I guess not to getinto the psychology of it, you know,
(39:55):
I don't know if that's like a, fromthat we're all like a, a, a suffering
the actor effects of a trauma andjust don't know how to, to process.
The emotions.
And so it's just coming out like, uh,in all different directions, easy,
I think.
I don't know either.
(40:15):
Um, and I shouldn't get anycredit or be trusted on, on
anything related to psychology.
But, but, but I do know that that is trueand also there's intention behind that.
And sometimes I think, um, it's reallyconvenient for people with power.
Where we take all theresponsibility of the problems.
(40:38):
But like you said, there are people withpower and intents who are reinforcing that
polarization and that distrust and the,the dehumanization between groups and,
um, the media does get more attention whenit's the negative versus the positive.
(40:58):
And so it's really importantthat as individuals.
We take that moment, um, you know, takethat breath or take that step back to
gain perspective and also hold thoseto account who are working against.
And that human tend are to connect.
Yes.
(41:18):
Yeah.
So now to take it, the conversation toa higher level and to look at it from a
global perspective, um, because of allof these, uh, you know, local and uh, uh.
I'll say country conflicts, um, and,uh, all the things that are going on,
(41:43):
it's making us miss one of the importantthings that we need to, um, really start
considering in the next, uh, decadehere as a, I would say, planet, um, uh.
All these identity conflicts and um, um,and sort of like, you know, this is mine.
(42:04):
This is yours is leading us to forget thatwe also need to take care of just our,
our daily living in our, our, our planet.
Um, our planet is in,uh, in grave trouble.
Um, and what I mean by that, we'rehaving troubles in, um, you know, uh.
I guess the easiest one is we seefor the climate, um, which then
(42:29):
is affecting us, um, for our food.
Um, it's affecting,uh, how, where we live.
Uh, that's another thingthat's causing people to have
to have displacement, right?
So, you know, maybe we're in one region,but now you have to leave because
now this region floods all the time.
Uh, you no longer can,you know, grow food here.
(42:51):
Um.
And so, uh, the people that are inanother region, um, are experiencing
an influx of people coming.
Um, and then they have to adjust,um, to these new people and.
Um, I guess you would say it'san exchange of identities and a
(43:11):
loss of identities, and it's allbeing caused by inner conflicts.
Um, and, um, it's, uh, effects.
And so how would you say that, uh.
The broader problem now, um,of, uh, climate change is
being affected by identities.
(43:32):
And I know this is a big question.
This is also, I'll say, this is a, um,uh, uh, the beauty pageant question.
Um, and, you know, how do you allthese identities, um, they're,
it's like a ping pong ball.
Like they're, they're, they're causingeffects, um, on the planet at a, at
(43:53):
a. At a monumental, uh, uh, scale.
Right?
Um, if we look at the SCG, uh, 2030goals that we're supposed to achieve
in five years, which doesn't looklike we're going to make it there,
um, I guess how, what can we do?
Or how do we, like, what do wehave to do to save ourselves?
(44:13):
Mm-hmm.
I, I'll just put it there.
How do we save ourselves becauseof these, uh, identity conflicts?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a huge question.
I
know.
It is a, it is a huge question.
I mean, I, I, I think the, it'sfunny though because the, it's
big question really feels like,
(44:35):
I'm gonna oversimplify this, but, butif policymakers and businesses and
communities aren't thinking about.
How these groups of people with theirdifferent identities are going to see
(44:56):
in their community and what that meansif they at considering identity and
considering that there are productiveways to manage these conditions and that
there are unproductive and dangerousways to manage these conditions, then.
There won't be the appropriate solutions.
(45:18):
So pi a moving in and out of urbanareas is not a new phenomenon.
However, we have more people livingin urban areas than ever before.
The world is rapidly urbanizing andit's because of all of these changes
that you've said, internal comforts,climate change, um, need for job
(45:40):
economy, uh, all, all of these issues.
And so it, it needs to be a policyconsideration what that the role of
identity means, and those, what, what,what I think the content in this book
would suggest is that the policy decisionsneed to take into account the structural
(46:04):
conditions that make access to basichuman needs, equitable for everyone.
Um, and that's a simple idea of it.
But it's certainly complicated.
Um, and it can be done because humansare actually quite exceptional at
breaking down boundaries and barriersand coming up with solutions.
(46:26):
Uh, but we need the right people withthe power to influence those discussions
and those policies to be in place.
Yes, I like, I I like your answer.
It's simple.
Straight to the straightto the point, and.
Um, I guess in, in some waysobvious, and it's just the, and it's
the thing that, um, I don't know.
(46:47):
We just can't seem to dothe, the straight thing.
I don't know why I've never beenable to figure to figure that out.
But, um, but I, I know it has, uh, thingsto do with power and all of that, but,
uh, just to do the straight thing, itwould be interesting if we just did the
straight thing to see just for once.
(47:08):
You know, um, uh, how, how, how it works.
I would just love to see it.
Yeah.
Um, and, uh, and you know, wemight be even, uh, more amazed
than we could ever imagine.
I think you're right.
A lot of that comes down to listening,and the listening is really part of that.
(47:29):
And, um, communities, that communitiesare actually exceptional at working
together and knowing what they need and.
Um, and so listening to them andunderstanding and, and holding, you
know, respecting what, what is beingsaid, what is being heard, what is
(47:49):
being experienced, and really thinkingwith communities, um, about how to meet
this moment is, is really essential.
And, um, and I think again, itkind of comes back whole circle
to this, how we started off that.
People are leaving peacefully together.
All over us.
All around us.
I mean, and we can look at that and wecan use that as a beacon of hope for
(48:14):
the possibility to do the right thing.
We just have to be mindful abouthow we're, how we're getting there.
But it, it's not as
complicated as it seems, as, assome people wanna make it sound.
Mm-hmm.
And that's nice to know.
And, uh, my final question because,uh, we find ourselves with the younger
(48:39):
generation, that is just, uh, I would say.
Uh, probably getting intocollege or coming out of college.
Um, uh, a lot of them are a little bitscared and feeling, um, you know, uh,
hopeless a little bit about the worldbecause they've been paying attention
to the news they've experienced, uh,being locked down and didn't get to go
(49:01):
to their own high school graduations andproms and all of those kind of things.
And so.
Um, you know, uh, I would say they'reprobably a little bit of, uh, shaken up.
Um, so what would you say to the youngergeneration about, uh, both, you know,
(49:21):
I guess, uh, appreciating their inditheir own identities, but, um, how to,
I guess, look forward to the future?
Like, uh, since they're going tobe, uh, the next people leading
us, what would you say to them?
I would say there's a reason tobe hopeful, and it's also totally
(49:45):
understandable how they're feeling.
And the only way we're gonnaget through this is together.
I think on a like that, that would be likemy core message that, you know, like it's
very valid how, how they're experiencing.
It's the world right now.
(50:06):
And, and there's a lot of reasons forus to be optimistic and, and to, uh, we
have to, we have to find some balance in,in holding the real desperate challenges
that we're facing while also understandingthat humans have overcome horrible
things before, and you will again.
(50:26):
Um, and we can learn from that and,and we can continue to make progress.
I mean.
There's always a tendency to wanna go backto something that felt more comfortable.
But the truth is there was a lot thatneeded to be fixed, even when things
felt more comfortable for some people.
So I think it's also possible to reframethis moment as an opportunity and,
(50:52):
and, uh, I mean, uh, you haveto be careful with that because
it is scary to come out of acollege and, and not have a job.
Um, but also our youth are soincredible and innovative and
creative and so it's gonna take alot of teamwork and collaboration
for us to move out of this moment.
(51:13):
But I have a lot of faith that, thatwe will, and that, you know, those of
us with, with old frameworks in mindwho are carrying our own conditioning
also need to let up a little bit andallow some new frameworks center.
And new ways of being with oneanother enter and, um, in a challenged
(51:36):
some of the norms that that worked.
Okay.
Um, it didn't work well in us, so,uh, yeah, we're just gonna have
to hunker down and do it together.
Yes.
We're on this ball together.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Um, thank you Jai-Ayla.
For your, uh, time and insight.
To learn more, go to stanley center.org.
(51:58):
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem,
or want to change minds contactproject, good work@projectgood.work.
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(52:19):
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Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.