Menopause

Episode Transcript
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Annmarie Hylton (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Project Good Podcast.
I'm your host, Annemarie Hylton.
Project Good is a social impact podcast,interviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is toinspire people and organizations
to develop a mindset that canmove others to positive action.

(00:21):
Regarding the complex social issuesfacing people and the planet for March,
we're closing out Women's HistoryMonth with a focus on menopause.
Menopause has been a hot topic in themainstream news lately and is finally
getting the limelight it deserves.
Since half of the population on theplanet is female, this natural and normal
process of life should not be ignored.

(00:43):
Medicine has historically beenmale-centric with much of the
research, especially in areas relatedto re reproduction and hormone
health focused on male physiology.
Women's health issues include menopauseor often dismissed as natural or less
important, leading to a lack of resources,funding and research directed towards
understanding and addressing menopause.

(01:06):
Women's reproductive cycles have allhave often been framed in a way that
emphasizes fertility and childbirthessential to their roles in society.
Menopause seen as the end of fertilityis often perceived as a shift away
from this core identity leading to itbeing minimized or underrepresented
in both public discussions.
In healthcare today I have the pleasureof interviewing Dr. Autumn Bku, who's

(01:30):
a clinical psychologist who focuses onsupporting women and moving from feeling
overwhelmed and stuck to feeling centeredand align with what truly matters to them.
Her expertise is women'shealth across the lifespan.
She helps women navigatechallenges in fertility, pregnancy,
postpartum, parenting, caregiving,career transitions, and sex.

(01:52):
Dr. Blis has specialized trainingin perimenopause and menopause,
and is particularly passionateabout helping midlife women move
from surviving to thriving throughthe important life transition.
Let's get into the interview.

(02:16):
Menopause has rarely beenportrayed in popular media in
a nuanced or an empowering way.
When it is depicted, it's often in anegative light, focusing on symptoms like
hot flashes, mood swings, or weight gain.
These portrayals further stigmatizethe experience and discourage
open conversations about thechallenges that come with menopause.

(02:36):
Dr. Autumn Bku is a dedicated andcompassionate psychologist who
works to bring unmatched expertisein hormonal health and behavioral
change to the lives of women.
She works to integrate medicalcomplexities of midlife with proven
strategies to help women takeaction and make meaningful lasting
change to their health and lives.
Recently, she launched her company ish,where she works to redefine what it

(03:00):
means to thrive in midlife and beyond.
Together with her co-founder, Dr.Shadi Goli Ade, they have leveraged
their expertise in hormones, womenand health behavioral change to create
transformative evidence-based programsthat empower women to navigate hormonal
changes and build the lives they deserve.
Their innovative approach isn'tjust about addressing symptoms.

(03:23):
It is about unlocking potential,fostering resilience, and setting
the foundation for vibrant longevity.
Welcome, Dr. Autumn.
Bku.
Thank

Dr. Autumn Backhaus (03:31):
you so much for having me.
Great to be here.

Thank you.
And thank you, uh, for, uh, bearing withme through our, um, introduction there.
Um, and, uh, I'm so happy todayto talk to you during, uh, women's
History Month about, uh, one of thethings that we as women can't avoid.

Absolutely.
It's just an, it's an inevitablepart of our life, that's for sure.
And so then we should just sort oflike be embracing it and, and be
more open to it and prepared and, um.
Excited.
And yeah, I think that's a place wherethere's a lot of work to be done.

Yes.
And so before we get into the interview,what I always do with everyone that I, um,
have on as a guest for the show is I tryto learn a little bit about who they are
as a person and their heart and what ledthem to be the person that they are today.
Um, and so, you know, when I waspreparing for this interview and I was,
uh, researching, um, your work and also,um, kind of, uh, the views of menopause

(04:33):
in society, I was, uh, seeing that, um,your approach was a little bit different
than maybe, um, other, uh, uh, people inthe profession, um, who may have a more,
I would say, straight clinical approach.
Um, and yours seems to have, um, kind ofa, a holistic, um, uh, addition to it.

(04:55):
And so what has been the most rewardingway that you've seen, um, integrating
this host holistic approach, change lives.

I think the most, um, meaningful thing that, that we've seen
through the work that we've been doing isthat it is universally helpful to women,
um, who are experiencing perimenopauseand menopause in their own way.
So everyone experiences thisin, in an individual setting
and, and their own, um, process.

(05:25):
Um, we can talk about it generally, right?
General symptoms, generaltreatments, all of that.
But everybody's experience is uniqueand everybody, um, can benefit from
the interventions of like mentalhealth and healthcare, like mental
health care, um, from a, um, empoweringstandpoint, not from a diagnostic

(05:46):
standpoint, if that makes sense.
So in psychology, there's so much,um, that we can do in terms of
interventions and help that, um, bolsterfolks during this time, this, um.
Time that can be challenging becauseof symptoms, but also can be a, a place
of, um, what's the word I wanna use?
Where there's such opportunitytoo, is what we found.

(06:09):
I. So, um, to answer your question, Ithink that what we're trying to talk
about is that no matter what you're doingmedically, if that makes sense, like
maybe you're gonna do hormone therapy.
Maybe, maybe you're not, maybeyou're still trying to talk a doctor
that understands that for you.
We can meet you where you're atin terms of health psychologists.
We can help you advocateto those, with those folks.

(06:30):
We can help be a teammember on those teams.
But we can also just help you in termsof, um, what you're going through.
Even if you're choosing not togo through medical treatments or,
you know, such as hormone therapyor, or the, that sort of thing.
We are like an integrative team and that'show health psychologists are in general.
And it just really made sense to uswhen we started thinking about this

(06:50):
process of menopause because this isa, uh, the perfect pla place to have an
integrative team approach and, um, tobring the skills and the interventions
that help women really thrive throughthis time, um, through our programs.

Wow.
And you know, what I was thinking whenyou were, when you were talking is that,
you know, health in general, of courseeach person's health is individual.
Um mm-hmm.
But especially when it comes to, um,menopause, you know, I of course am
not a menopause expert, but, um, beingthat I, um, am a woman, um, I know
that, uh, through my experience andjust experiences that I have, uh, you

(07:30):
know, had with other women, that eachwoman, of course, their, their bodies,
um, function different, um mm-hmm.
And, uh.
I think one of the, the biggest thingjust in health in general is that there's
always like this, like broad breast strokeof like, oh, you know, if it works, if
it works for me, it'll work for you.
But, uh, you know.
Mm-hmm.

(07:50):
But the, that's not how it is.
And especially, um, I think that is thekey and understanding women and, you know,
every woman they have the, you know, yes.
Like these jokes, likeevery woman is different.
And, uh, even though society wantsto be like all women are this way
or that way, they really aren't.
And it, when it comes to, um, somethingthat is happening, uh, physically

(08:11):
and, um, you know, uh, and, and froma hormone standpoint, because, you
know, not every woman even startedher period the same time, you know?
Yes.
They have like a range.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but, you know, there's so manyother, uh, factors at, at play.
Um, so, um, uh, I love that you, uh,look at all of these in order to, um,

(08:33):
help women, uh, move forward and givethem that indi individualistic, um,
uh, care and approach that they need.
And so, I guess let's, uh,start at the beginning.
I guess the first, uh, question is,you know, um, a lot of people, and,
and I think you know, it, it dependson what society, you know, we have,
uh, here is America, but there's a, youknow, a bunch of different, uh mm-hmm.

(08:56):
Places around the world thatlook at menopause differently.
I've even read some things about Yes.
That people don't think it exists.
So, is menopause, first of all, real?

Oh, absolutely.
I mean, it's a, it'sabsolutely a real thing.
It's, you know, there's definitelyenough, uh, science and evidence and,
and, uh, you know, real lived experienceto say this is a real thing and it's.
I hope that that isn't somethingthat we have to spend a lot of
time with folks in the world likesaying, you know, convincing people.

(09:29):
Um, I think that that, you know, thequestion itself is an indication of like,
sort of where women's health sometimeslies and, um, society in terms of thinking
about like, well, you know, I think our,our medical system, our approach, and
I'm speaking specifically more to the USis very, um, male based to start, right?

(09:51):
So everything, if we think aboutour, our, the way that the healthcare
system and just the way that welook at the society is like the,
the ma men are the prototype, right?
And then everything from there is sortof compared to that or related to that.
And so I loved how in yourintroduction you said 50% of our
population goes through this, right?
Yeah.

(10:12):
50%. So we should really bepaying attention to this.
Um, and not seeing it as something that's.
Does it exist or isn't normal,or isn't, uh, you know, isn't a
common, normal, natural body, um,experience that women go through?
I mean, men go through their ownhormonal changes over time too.
It's just a different process, right?
Um, so, but there's a reason thatwe need to give space for women to

(10:37):
have this experience, for it to benormalized, for, for society to,
um, accommodate it, if you will.
I don't even literally like the wordaccommodate, because I feel like,
again, that goes back to this ideathat like women, like we're, we're,
if we start from the prototypeof men, then we're accommodating.
Does that make sense?
So I'm like, we just need to look atthis as a human experience and that this

(10:59):
is, this is gonna happen and, and weneed to have some acceptance around it
and some, and some support around it.
Um, there was a, I think you weresort of, did I, I'll go, I'll let you
go to your, to your next question.
Yeah.
I kind of like lost my,my process on that one.
Oh, no, no

worries.
Um, you know, uh, I guess, um, my,my, my next thing is I guess in, in.
That it, since it is such a, a naturalprocess, and I, you know, I don't
know from a, a population, populationstandpoint, you know, um, for age,
um, you know, where, how, what thepercentages for how many women right
now are, you know, at the mm-hmm.

(11:38):
Menopause age.
Um, but, you know, um, but it's a,obviously a, um, um, pun intended
and, uh, none and none intended.
It's a, uh, a secular thing.
Uh, so, you know, cycles, uh, goingon, you know, people coming and going.
Great.
It's a generational mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
And so, you know, um, so, you know,women are, uh, going through, um, this,

(12:01):
uh, cycle and, I don't know, it's like,um, uh, give or take, you know, 40, 40
years maybe, that you are in this like,um, hormonal cycle thing, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Give or take.
Mm-hmm.
You know who, who you are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but, uh, in that, I guess in,uh, I guess maybe I almost wanna

(12:21):
say, I think maybe society just

doesn't understand women in general.
I think you're right.
No, a hundred percent.
So what I would say is I think menopauseis just an extension of how women's
healthcare is, you know, viewed andapproached over the lifespan, right?
So we know that there is a lot of,um, like, like, what do I wanna say?

(12:47):
Healthcare in terms of women at any pointin their lives, at any stage we know
is lacking in terms of the research,um, in terms of the dedication of
money and time and understanding whatwomen go through, there's a reason,
you know, that women in particular, um.
Don't, you know, have high, we,we shouldn't have these high
rates of, uh, mortality frombirth, right, from giving birth.

(13:10):
Um, we know that women's painis undertreated generally.
We know, you know, like all theseplaces along our lifespan where women
are, are, um, not getting the careand the attention that they should,
um, through our healthcare system.
Just, it just extends into menopause.
And I would say that like there isa movement now, as you said, for
menopause to become, um, somethingthat people are paying attention to,

(13:32):
aware of, treating appropriately.
And there's a lot ofwork to be done there.
But if you think back to like 10 yearsago, that's sort of the work that was
being done around, um, you know, uh,getting pregnant, uh, family planning and
then having babies and then realizing thatthere's a lot of risk to women and like
women are giving birth to these babies.
And then we just focus on thebabies and women get this one.

(13:55):
15 minute follow up, six months, six weekslater, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
So it's, I think it's a systemicthing about women's healthcare,
and this is just that particularpoint in time in a women's life.
There's also a lot of culturalcomponents to this that are, that
are, um, intersecting becausethere's a lot of ageism that is,
um, around this idea of menopause.

(14:15):
So I think the, the difficulty thatmidlife women have is this intersection
of sexism, ageism, and then like, youknow, the menopause piece of it too.
Um, and so it is just a, anothercomponent of women's healthcare
that needs attention overall.

Yeah.
As you were saying that, I wasthinking that women are, uh, in, from
a, a cultural and societal context.
It made me feel like womenare on a conveyor belt.
Like you're just in the factory.
I know.
And that's what I started.
That's, you know.
Mm-hmm.
Because I think in pictures and so mm-hmm.
I, I started seeingwomen on a conveyor belt.

(14:54):
Like, oh, okay.
We, we got one, we got a girl.
Um, you know, here she is.
Mm-hmm.
Is a little girl.
Okay.
Let's, you know, um, uh, cramher with some information.
Tell her what she's gonna bedoing, uh, Stanford with her role.
Okay.
Okay.
She reached, uh, you know, puberty.
That's good.
Mm-hmm.
It seems that things are going great.

Right.

We, we did

give her some information about that.
Mm-hmm.
We do do a little educationnow about that, like, you
know, that's not so secretive.
Yes.
Keep going on your Yes.
Keep going.

Yes.
And then, yeah, and then she jumpsinto her, uh, you know, twenties
and, you know, this is supposed to bethe way our society portrays it, you
know, this is when she's her, her, uh,her best because she looks her best.
And, you know, yes.
Um, you know, youthful,um, and, and, and youthful.
And then, you know, uh,we put the alarms in.
When she hits her thirties,you're going down, oh my gosh,

when are you gonna be pregnant?
When, when, when is, whenare you gonna have babies?
When's that happening?
You're on a time clock.
You're on a time clock.
Yeah.
You're, you're going

down.
And then by 40, you know, if you,if you made it and you still look
good, people are like, oh, wellyou look good for, for that age.
And if you didn't, they're like,well, you're going down anyways.

Yes, yes.
Sad.
And that's what it feels like.
Uh, that's what it feels.
No, you captured it.
Mm-hmm.
Sad.
And I think you capturedanother part of it.
That's the beauty.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

And, and, and yet, you know, women have this, the, you
know, give or take, of course, there'sgonna be people that probably arguing,
send me comments after I say this,but women have the, I would say, the
most important role on the planet.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
Because without us, I, I don't know.
I've, I've had to say this like in a fewdifferent, not even the same topic, but

(16:36):
without us, this place doesn't continue.

Yeah.
Yes.
I, I mean, it's true there thatthis is the way that, that our, our
humanity continues, like literally.
So yes, I think you're right.
I think the thing that I, that comesto mind for me on the, the, the.
Conveyor belt that you're talking aboutin terms of menopause specifically,
is that at least at the other times,we have been starting to give women

(17:02):
some education, like, you know,puberty, mostly women, girls are sort
of told this is what you could expect.
You know, in most places there'sexceptions to everything.
And then for like your twenties, thisis what you need to be doing for your
health, and this is how you're fertile.
And like there's a ton offocus on fertility, whether
you wanna have family or not.
That's the focus for women, right?
And then, then it just sortof drops off after that.

(17:24):
Then there's nothing really, nobodysays, okay, after this time where
some of you're choosing to havechildren, some of you're not, there's
another stage, there's something elsethat's gonna happen in your life.
Like you, it's gonna look differentfor you from maybe your friends or
potentially, but here's like thegeneral sense of how you should prepare
for it so that you don't wake up andpanic and feel like you're losing
your mind because that's, that'swhere women started coming, um, to Dr.

(17:48):
Shoddy and I, is that.
They were, um, experiencing sort ofthe mental health, what you would call
mental health related, emotional andcognitive symptoms as their primary, um.
Alarms that they were in perimenopauseor menopause, but they didn't
understand that those were alarms.
Um, and so there, there's, there's likethis drop off in terms of education
and preparation for women at that pointin the conveyor belt as you described.

(18:12):
And that's where we first really, um,started helping women is when they were
being referred to psychiatrists andthey were really feeling like something
was mentally wrong with them and theythought they were, you know, um, needed
to have a neuropsychological workupbecause their memory, they couldn't think
of words and their memory wasn't right.
That's the place where we reallyneed to empower women is so that they
don't go for years, some of thesewomen years thinking that they have

(18:36):
a mental illness when they're justimpairing menopause or menopause.
And there's something that, that,you know, can be done to help
them, um, with those symptoms.

Yes, I know the, I know the, um, I'll just say,
uh, losing your mind, um mm-hmm.
Thing is emphasized.
Like they, they make that, you know, um,comedy skits and, um, you know, and it,
uh, uh, you know, plays out in mm-hmm.
Um, the media and, um, youknow, in, in all different ways.

(19:04):
Mm-hmm.
I guess how, um, I guess how wouldyou suggest, um, I guess women start?
Uh, uh, to me, this whole thing iskind of, uh, I have to, I have to
confess, I, I get, I, I get scaredabout it a little bit, right?
Yes.
Like, because I, I, 'cause I don'tknow, you know, because it's so mm-hmm.

(19:24):
Individualistic, I don't know how.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it'll play out formyself, my friends, like, you know,
I, am I going to have to go runand live in the woods, you know?
Yes.
No, like, you know, there's.
Yes.
It's scary a little bit 'causeit's like you're, you're waiting
for, it's almost, uh, uh, you'regonna be like, oh my goodness.
It's almost like you're waitingfor the full moon, the werewolf.

Yes.
Oh gosh, yes.
Oh no.
I, I am so thankful that you sharedthat with me, because that's the
other piece that, that I think Dr.
Shady and I are really, youknow, trying to help with.
So, because there is this, we, this thingthat we experience with women, it's almost
like be the, the women in their thirties,the late thirties, 38, 39, right?

(20:10):
At 40, they don't wannatalk about it with us.
They're like, I don't, Idon't even wanna go there.
Like, there's just like this sort of,you know, like, just, just don't, I,
I'm not, you know, that's too much.
It's too scary, whatever.
And then there's something sometimesthat happens around 40 or 41 where
they're like, okay, let's talk menopause.
Like, okay, let's think about this.
But, and I think some of thathas to do with, you know,

(20:31):
just the ageism components.
But I do think that, um.
It probably does feel scary to folksthat the kind of media portrayal and
even the way that I talked about it islike losing your mind kind of thing.
Feels, um, scary to people tothink about it coming on that way.
But the thing is, is that it's, itwas scary to me in my own personal

(20:53):
experience 'cause I even as ahealth psychologist of 15 years.
Was waking up in panic.
This is how, this was my experience.
I was waking up in sheer panic.
I was having panic attacks, and I'dnever had panic attacks in my life.
I even, I was like, do Ineed to see a psychiatrist?
What is happening to me?
What, what, you know,why am I having anxiety?
All of a sudden I didn't like, I, I didnot even think of the fact that I was like

(21:17):
42, 43 years old when this was happeningand that it could be related to that.
All that I knew was that Idid not feel like myself.
I kept telling people in my life,I just don't feel like myself.
I feel, I just don't, I feel likea shell of myself or one minute
I feel like a shell of myself,and the next day I feel normal.
I have this, um, vivid memorywith my partner one day where.

(21:39):
I think I was even texting himand I was saying, I, I feel like
this shell of myself, I don'tknow what's going on with me.
Like I just, uh, you know,I just don't feel good.
And he was providing support and all that.
And then, I don't know, three hours laterI actually saw him in person and he said,
well, how's it, you know, and this, hewas being very kind and he was like,
how's it going with the, with your shell?
And I said, what?

(22:00):
And he's like, you mean you your shell?
And I was like, oh, oh yeah.
I can't even really get intouch with that right now.
I don't even feel that.
But that it was the hormonal changesthat I was going through on a daily to
hour basis and still go through, um, thatfeeling of like, I don't feel like myself.
Now I wanna say one more thing aboutthis though, because I know it's

(22:20):
scary and those things do feel scary.
But if you're, if you have thislittle piece in your mind to say,
Hey, I heard when I'm in my forties,like when I start to feel that
way, maybe I should look into it.
It's not the end of the world.
There's a lot of things I can do about it.
That's one thing.
The other thing I wanna share, um, from apersonal standpoint and from things that
I've heard from so many women, is that in.

(22:40):
In parallel to this symptoms thatare, that can be really challenging.
There's also this feeling insideus that's something burning.
It's like, it's like this.
I, I still haven't been able to capturethe right word I wanna use for this,
but it's like this phoenix in the fire.
Like something changesfor the positive too.
Like there's this strength.
Um, I noticed, I, I read somewhere thatlike, I think Margaret Mead is the one

(23:04):
who's credited, she calls it a zest.
So it's scary, but it's also exciting.
There's, it's a change.
And I think in some ways when Italk about it that way, it reminds
me of how people would talk to mein some ways about puberty, right?
Like, eh, this is kind of an annoyingand there's some things that you're
not gonna like about it and you'regonna have pmms and blah, blah, blah.
But it's exciting because,you know, blah, blah, blah.

(23:25):
How does that feel when Ishare it like that for you?
For those of you who are like,oh gosh, this sounds scary, I
just wanna go into the woods.

Yes, yes.
No, um, you know, it's, uh, it's been a,a long time, uh, you know, since I hit.
Uh, puberty.
But I do remember, like, yeah, you were,um, you know, they, they, uh, prepped
you, um, you know, give or take, uh, youknow, what kind of school you went to.
Mm-hmm.
But, you know, they had the littlelike, videos and, and things like that.

(23:56):
Mm-hmm.
And, um, and, you know, and, um.
I had the type of mom that, you know, wedid like a little celebration or whatever.
So

Yes, yes, exactly.
I think that some parallels could happen.
Yes.
A hundred per yes, yes, yes, yes.
And you know, if you think about theother side, and not to be too like
graphic, but like the girls who donot have preparation, who are not
given that space to like understandwhat's gonna happen with their body,
think about how terrifying that waswhen they got their first period.
Think about how scary that was to them.

(24:26):
Like they didn't understandwhat was happening to them.
It's very similar sort of in manyways to how these first symptoms of
menopause can feel, depending again,on what your first SIP symptoms are.
So a lot of women don't, you know,necessarily notice any changes
in their periods or there's notany changes in their period.
They're not having the hot flashes.
And those are the two things that.
You know, sort of spark in ourminds, perimenopause or menopause,

(24:48):
not just in our minds, butalso in our provider's minds.
So you may be going to your doctorin your forties and saying, you know,
I'm just really feeling very anxiousall the time, and I'm not sleeping.
I wake up at 3:00 AM every morning.
I've got the, you know, like da, da, da.
You're telling them those things.
They're also maybe missing it becauseyou're not saying things that are
like, you know, red, light red,flashing, light, perimenopause.

(25:10):
They're just saying things that are likesleep and depression and or anxiety.
And those then are being, you know, um.
Treated potentially as, uh, but they'remore of a symptom than the core.
And if we're not looking atthe core, then we're missing a
lot of interventions for women.

I guess from a, um, uh, personal standpoint, how,
when, when, uh, people start feelingthat these, um, these changes are
approaching, if they, I would say mm-hmm.
I guess if they start to notice them,I'm, I'm going to assume that most
women have like, uh, notice maybethe sleepless nights or restlessness.
Mm-hmm.
Um, mm-hmm.

(25:48):
I think the hot flashesare always like advertised.
Mm-hmm.
If you have hot flashes mm-hmm.
Then you're like, darn, I hit it.

Yeah.
Yep.
That one is pretty clear.
Those hot flashes are pretty clear.
Or the night, you know, night sweats,the version of the night version.
Yeah.
You then you're like, uh, becausethose have been, you know, really
advertised, if you will, in the media.
That's a, that's the thingthat gets a lot of attention.
Um, and it gets a lot of attentionin, in your clinical settings too,
so it's like reinforced in both ways.

(26:15):
But yes, there's so much morethat we experience outside of
that that maybe is being missed.

Now.
Is there a, uh, I guess are there, II'm, I'm one of those people that like
to think about, um, you know, eithereating or exercising or, you know,
taking some kind of approach to mm-hmm.
Like, get through this.
Yes.
Um, so, um, you know, when this,these things start happening to
women, um, should they, uh, you know,take that time to like, reassess,

(26:45):
you know, how they are living.
Um, I guess we'll start with the diet.
'cause I always think diet is the easiestthing to, you know, start approaching.
Sure.
For, for first.
And then I guess, um, since this is,you know, something that you guys
specialize with your, um, your companymid, like, um, how should they start?
Um, I guess from.

(27:05):
Um, just like, uh, uh, looking atlife, uh, perspective, I guess how,
um, we can walk through this, I guessa little bit, step by step from Sure.
Um, like diet to maybe even like exercise,to, um, should they even look at maybe how
they change their, like, career and work.
I don't know.
Mm-hmm.
I've, I, you know, I've heard somepeople get so affected that they,

(27:25):
you know, they can hardly, uh, feellike they can function anymore.

Yeah.
Well, I think there's a lot to unpackthere, but I'll, I'll kind of start with
the lifestyle stuff that you're talkingabout, like the, uh, so how would you,
uh, let's start with diet, I guess.
Diet.
Okay.
So I think what the way that,that, um, Dr. Shadi and I really
have approached our work and,and I think fits in terms of our.
Expertise as health psychologists is,there's two things happening here.

(27:53):
So perimenopause and menopause havesymptoms related to them, and if
we're talking about trying to treatthe symptoms, that's one thing.
If we're talking about trying toenhance and improve and, um, our
overall health and longevity,that's sort of another thing.
They can be related.
But I think sometimes we just wannabe clear that like absolutely.

(28:16):
Um, having a healthy diet, having amovement in your life that's regular and
meaningful, having, um, there's plentyof evidence that for midlife women, um,
especially strength training and strengthin terms of your movement is important.
Those things are, are, like, thistime in our life is actually a, i, I
find like really empowering becauseit's the time in our life to really

(28:38):
focus on those if we can, when wecan and without and with support.
Those things though, are more for ouroverall health, less so for treating the
actual symptoms, if this makes sense.
So we don't have a a, there's alot, there's a ton of research that
really needs to be done in this area.
We don't have a lot, but what we doknow is there's really limited evidence

(28:59):
from a couple of strong trials thatdietary modifications themselves
don't really improve symptoms.
So like, and, uh, they're alwayslike, especially in the research,
like to look at hot flashes too, butthey're saying, you know, changing
your diet is not gonna really exchangeyour experience of, um, hot flashes.
However, we wanna talk about your dietin terms of your chronic disease because

(29:21):
this is the time in your life whereit's really pivotable to make, um, to
like kind of lay down the foundationfor healthy living in terms of longevity
later, because we know that women, um,um, later in life, this is the time
where we want to focus on our bonestrength, focus on our cardiac health,
and focus on our endocrine health as well,because it sets us up for later in life.

Now here's an, uh, another thing.
This is a, um, that I, I readjust because, um, how much your
partner could affect you in life.
Yes, yes.
And, and, and especially during thisstage, I think it's, uh, critical.
So, um, this is, you know, just,um, um, some, uh, mm-hmm studies
that I've, uh, read for women andyou know how there are partners.

(30:07):
Um, you know, can, uh, um, you know,know, uh, hopefully, you know, everybody
has a wonderful partner, but theycould bring on chronic disease mm-hmm.
And different things if thestress level gets too, too much.
And so at this, um, you know,stage for, uh, many, uh, women, you
know, they've probably been therewith their partner for a moment.

(30:28):
Um, and so, you know, um mm-hmm.
Uh, each of them is dealing with sometype of, um, challenge, unless of
course you married an angel, but, um, aperfect human, a perfect, perfect human.
I don't think so, but there's a very,there's very far and few in between.

(30:48):
Um, and so, um, in, in finding, uh,I guess in, in a partner, how can a
partner be supportive so that theydon't, um, you know, take you down?

Yeah.
Great question.
So how can a partner be there to supportyou along this journey versus to like
be another factor of challenge right?
Is kind of what you're saying?
Mm-hmm.
Well, I think the thing to rememberabout partners is that, um, we have
to have some flexibility around itbecause sometimes they are gonna be
amazing and sometimes they're not.
And so we, we can't expect a hundredpercent, um, perfection of them.

(31:23):
And if we sort of allow for thatin our own minds of like, um.
Good enough, if you will,like this is good enough.
I think is generally actually myapproach, I think to life in many
ways because, um, if we get into thisperfectionism part about ourselves
or about our partners, then we setourselves up for a lot of disappointment.
So I wanna just start with that in termsof like, um, sort of grace as people would

(31:47):
say with our partners and with ourselvesis really important in terms of like our,
our just, um, situation in life overall.
But what we've found in termsof our work with partners is
a few things, um, in midlife.
So one is, like you said, there's kindof a cohort of women who have been
with their partner for some time andthis is like a, an uh, a time in life
that they're gonna navigate together.

(32:08):
The other is actually there's a prettygood portion of women that in another
cohort that we work with, that havea transition in their relationship so
that they've had a divorce or a breakup,because this is kind of a time in
life where that has happened as well.
So they, um, those women are sort ofdealing with certain, certain things too.
The other thing I, um, wanna.
Throw out there in termsof partners is it's, it's

(32:30):
fascinating and very interesting.
I think also to work with, um,gender diverse partners and lesbian
partners who are going throughmenopause, maybe potentially
together, but in different ways.
I think overall the thing about partnersis education and awareness and, um.
That that's shared and however it isthat you take in information, maybe your

(32:53):
partner takes it in in a different way.
So thinking about how you can get thatinformation to your partner, have them
open, have some openness around thatto taking it in some curiosity, um,
some non defensiveness around thisidea of what we're going through.
I, I actually find one of the thingsthat I talk about is maybe even talking

(33:13):
about once there's education on board.
So let's say both partners understand,okay, this is what it looks like.
This is how the hormones go,this is how you know it's
presenting for you at this time.
It also can change because this is a,you know, over several year process.
So like maybe in the first fewyears is a lot of emotional stuff.
Maybe in the second few years it'smore of the hot flashes, whatever,

(33:33):
like it, it really can change.
So again, that flexibility of yourself,of like sort of this idea that we
say in psychology of riding the wave.
You, you wanna get on thewave and you just ride it.
If you try to swim against it, ifyou try to swim to shore faster,
it's, that's where the problematic,um, kind of suffering happens.
So this idea of let'sride this wave together.

(33:57):
I think sometimes, uh, in my workwith couples, we've found that like
sort of third person, if you will,the perimenopause as its own being.
So like, as opposed to it living within,if you will, it doesn't live within
the, the woman who's experiencing it.
'cause I think sometimes when it liveswithin, then there is this shame,

(34:17):
there's this, um, um, responsibility.
Um, there's this blame thatcan happen towards the person,
but it's not the person, right?
It's the experience of this change.
So if you kind of make Perry whateveryou wanna call him, Perry or Menno
or whatever, like this third personthat you both talk about together
in that way, it takes that, um.

(34:40):
I don't know the pain sometimes out of itfor, for the woman who's experiencing it.
Because if I say it like this, um,or if my partner comes and says, wow,
Perry's really having a hard timewith, uh, with irritability, you know,
does, does Perry, is there somethingwe can do to help Perry this week?
Like, what's going on?
Like, I'm, I'm here.
Do you wanna go for a massage?

(35:00):
Do you wanna go for a walk?
What, what, what can wedo with Perry this week?
Right?
If you versus, hey.
Partner.
Whoa.
This irritability you got goingon this week is like a lot.
Like, what's going on?
What are you doing?
Do you see, do you hear the difference?
Right?
Like I can, as the woman, I canaccept that like kind of conversation
around Perry as this part of ourrelationship right now, but it's not.

(35:23):
It's not my fault, it's notrelated to me in that way.
It's not something that I controlin the way that it feels if
you are saying, if you're notthinking of it in a third person.
Um, and I found that some people reallyfind that helpful, you know, and if,
depending on your personality and yourpartnership, like it can be funny,
it can be fun, like it can be, but itcan also be a place to put some really

(35:44):
heavy stuff that not both of that,that doesn't land in one person's lack
to hold and to be responsible for.

Does that make sense?
I like that very much.
And I would say Perry needs a trip to Bali

and, you know, and two more seats for us too.
Yes.
So a trip for three, right?
Right.
Yes.
Yes, yes,

yes.
I, I really like that.
I really like that.
That's a, you know, good, good.
Perry needs a cheesecake.

Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Perry, what do you thinkPerry needs this week?
Does it, is it a massage?
Is it there alone time?
Is it, you know, like, like alittle trip, like what, what
would really help with Perry?
Or does Perry just just, youknow, Hey, Perry seems to be
doing really well this week.
Like, how's, how does it feel to you?
You know, like, wow, great.
You know, those kind of things.
Just talking about it in that context,I think takes a lot of the heaviness

(36:36):
away from it for other people for,and, and the responsibility, because
I do think that sometimes there can bethis blame aspect of like, you know, we
blame is given and blame is received.
Um, and, and they don'tboth have to be there.
Like, you know, the partner can be sayingsomething and by no means meaning to
blame, but the, the woman is feelingit as like responsibility and blame

(36:59):
because of the symptoms are like comingout of them, if that makes sense.
But if they're third.
Person.
It just helps with that collaborationaround the management and of,
of perimenopause or menopause.

Um, I, I love that.
Um, you know, uh, I love having thethird person making it much more
comfortable to talk about, and thenalso, um, you know, lifting the blame
and, uh, showing some understanding, um,especially in a, um, in a relationship.
Um, and, you know, it makes iteasier to talk about some, you

(37:36):
know, rather difficult things.
So I, I love that approach.
Um, and so, uh, I guess also duringthis time, um, what are, uh, you
know, I'm, uh, an, an older mom, andso I have, I have a, a little one.
Mm-hmm.
So she's not even really, uh,thinking about this, but usually at
this stage, a lot of moms might havesome teenagers and things like that.

(37:59):
Um, yes, I guess, um, uh, what, I guessare, are there any things, um, any,
uh, fun, uh, mom suggestions that youwould have for women in, uh, uh, dealing
with their, their kids as they'realso going through the stage of life?
It's almost like the moms are goingthrough a teenage stage at the same time.

No, this is so important.
And this is honestly, this iswhere my heart lies and, and
where Dr. Shadys heart lies.
And it's why we actually, this is how wecame together in terms of our, like, you
know, um, this project, like we've beenfriends for years and colleagues, um, and
we started, we, we named it Mama Paws.
Like, we're like, Ugh, this mamapause is just like a, just too much.

(38:43):
Um, because we, we do feel like there'sa difference of being in perimenopause
or, I mean, most certainly perimenopauseor menopause as like what we are
calling kind of active parentinglike with young, younger kids, right?
Even in the media, all of theexamples that we see are like,
um, uh, empty nesters, right?

(39:04):
That's, that's always the thing.
She's like, oh, and that's also sort oflike some of the, um, bias and stuff is
like, oh, she's just lost because her, shedoesn't have her kids to raise anymore.
She needs a new purpose.
And, you know, these typesof things come along, which.
Partly could be true, butlike, you know, in the media it
gets very, um, over overblown.
But we started realizing that becausewomen in general are having kids

(39:27):
later, children later, there's muchmore of an overlap in terms of like
almost postpartum and perimenopause.
And that was actually my personalexperience is like I had my
last, I have two children.
I had my last one at, I had bothof them after the age of 40.
Um, and the second one at age 43.
And after he was born, um, itwas like, you know, a year or so.

(39:50):
And I was struggling with the things like,you know, anxiety and, um, sleeplessness.
Even though finally likethe family was sleeping in.
He was sleeping in.
I was like, what is going on?
Um, and so I actually worried thatit was postpartum something, but
I really, you know, uh, I think,you know, I know now that it was
perimenopause that had overlapped.

(40:12):
And so I think it also got lost inthat system of like the change of
my body, re re rehabbing from havinga baby, um, getting back on track,
but then actually going into anotherstage that I wasn't prepared for.
So the thing that we hear a lot frommoms and that, you know, um, I can
personally relate to and lots of us can,is just the irritability and like the,

(40:32):
the responsiveness towards our kids.
Sometimes that's there because ofthe perimenopause, irritability, and.
Um, those things.
And so that feels harderwhen you have young kids.
I don't know if you've, have you everseen the, um, the movie, the Fried
Green Tomatoes and the woman that, um,gets, she's in perimenopause, right?

(40:53):
And she gets into like a little ragein the parking lot with a young woman.
Mm-hmm.
Are you familiar with that?
Yes.
I remember that

movie.
Yes.
I, I forget the actress's name.
Uh, but, uh, yes, I remember herout there and like her husband
used to be like, oh my gosh, yeah.

Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So she, so she's like, yeah, she'sin a, to give some context to this,
and I, I just really love thisexample because I, I remember this
from a kit, like from watching thismovie as a kid, this was like, my
understanding of menopause is that she's.
Waiting patiently and nicelyfor a parking spot to open.
Like she's been waiting, waiting orturn signals on, blah, blah, blah.
She's at the Piggly Wiggly orwhatever, and she's waiting there.

(41:30):
And then all this as she, the other cargets out of this young, I think, as I
remember, who knows what my memory says,but blonde, you know, 20 ish something,
or younger woman in a convertible redconvertible, she swoops in and takes
her parking spot and she just likethe, the woman that we're talking
about just sort of like, is like, what?

(41:51):
She loses it right?
She's so angry.
I'm doing everything right.
I'm following the rules andhere's this young woman just like
comes in and does everything.
So there's some other cultural contextsaround like this, ageism and, and, and
putting, pitting people against eachother, which I think is like hard.
But in this example though,she like rams the car.
That's what she does.

(42:12):
I remember.
Yes.
And she says, she says somethinglike, I am older and have more
insurance or something like that.
That's like the line.
You know, and I lo it's funny and Ithink it's, it's a, it's a good example,
but if you think about if that weresomeone, now, a lot of moms would've
had young kids in the backseat, right?
Like, if I think about me, Iwould've had two kids in car seats.

(42:34):
So the backseat when someone cut meoff and parked in front of me and
like, you know, it kind of enraged me.
So what would I have done?
Probably not rage, like towards thecar, but, you know, 'cause I'm very mom
focused and safety focused and all that.
But you know what, when my kid'sscreaming and yelling in the back,
I might've, instead of trying tobe my, you know, thoughtful, my mom
self of like, Hey, we're in the car.

(42:56):
Let's use our inside boys.
I might have said, shut up back there.
Chill out.
You know, like my, mm-hmm.
My reaction.
Mm-hmm.
Those moments might be different.
And so I think it's really importantthat we think about the context that
women are experiencing these symptomsin and how they might be different
for some of us, um, based on the, thelife, you know, of family building
and other things like that, thatwe've done, um, that is different

(43:18):
than it was 10, 15, 20 years ago.

Yes, definitely.
Like, um, yeah, you know, I think mostpeople are, uh, you know, going later and
later in, in the life for having children.
And so, um, you know, that comes,you know, for both, uh, not just,
uh, women and men with, uh, a wholebunch of different, uh, changes.
And so how would you say that, uh,I guess companies or workplaces,

(43:45):
um, is this something mm-hmm.
I guess even, do you think thatthey need to consider accommodate?
Mm-hmm.
Or do you think that we are maybe headingin, uh, a better direction as more
and more jobs become, I guess, remote?

I mean, I, I think that, uh, for me, in terms of
employers and EM employment, likeoverall, the best thing is just to be
like human and family friendly, right?
Like.
The more we can do that as a whole, thecompany as a whole, not even necessarily
like targeting women specifically,although I think women's stuff is
great, but if we can say we're a companythat really embraces like that you are

(44:26):
human outside of where you work for us.
Like you do other things.
You have a life we, you know, you.
Those things are important to you.
Those are really strongin your value system.
Like how can we work togetherthe best that we can to have.
You know, um, support both like thatyou're a good employee, you do what we
pay you for and like do a great job.
And you do that in the context of likestill having a meaningful life in other

(44:50):
places and being able to attend to yourown health, being able to attend to the
health of the people in your family.
So it's like a more general thing, right?
Like I think we, right now the systemreally looks at things in chunks, right?
Okay.
We're now, we do parental leave.
Great.
A hundred percent.
That's wonderful.
We're doing more parental leave.
Okay.
Now some companies are supportingthings like IVF and more of

(45:10):
those kind of treatments.
Wonderful.
Um, so I think if we could even to giveit more globally of like across the
lifespan, people ebb and flow in termsof what they need in their work life
balance or their work life experience.
How can we as employers support that?
Do we offer things like.
Like you said, like, um, you know,work from home options, flexible work

(45:30):
time, time schedules, um, you know,cooling rooms, things like that,
like that are just like there to,um, be of support of like, of human
life, you know, just in general.
Sometimes I feel like we.
If we could just look atlike the human project.
You know, we, we, when we thinkabout work, we're very much in that

(45:52):
capitalistic mindset of like, we dowork, we earn money, we keep going.
Um, but that's only part of our life.
Right?
And, um, if we can expand it to be alittle bit more flexible, um, I think
that's best for everyone's healthand I think our productivity as well.

Yes.
And so do you think, um, I guess, youknow, one of the, um, just going through
a earlier stage, like, uh, you know,for, um, uh, uh, postpartum for women
who are, uh, breastfeeding mm-hmm.
I know for, um mm-hmm.
A lot of companies, um, thatused to be like the hot topic.
Like, do we allow, do we have,uh, room for moms who, you know.

(46:30):
Uh, breastfeed or not.
Um, and, uh, do you think, like, uh,you, you mentioned cooling rooms,
is that something that mm-hmm.
You think it would be like a similarin, in like a similar vein for,
um, dealing with, uh, women thatare going through, um, menopause?
Mm-hmm.
Or, um, I guess even, uh, I've workedat some companies where they had, um,

(46:52):
um, uh, this was when I worked at a a,a high highly stressful, uh, a law firm.
They had rooms that you could go in andyou could just, uh, uhhuh sit at late
and cool off and read a book or somethingbecause you know, you get riled up.
Yes,

Dr. Autumn Backhaus: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. (47:06):
undefined
No, that, and I actually likethat a lot because I think.
The more sort of, in some waysgeneral, you can, um, make the space
the less stigma and the less likemedicalization of things there is, right?
So if you just have spaces in yourwork, for example, like you said, where
there's a nice chair and you know,you can adjust the, you know, these

(47:29):
are like perfect conditions, right?
You can adjust the, um, thetemperature and you have privacy.
Then like let people useit for what they need.
Like you said, maybe they just arereally stressed out and need to have
time away, like sensory overload.
Maybe it's a mom who does needto pump her breast milk for
her baby for later that day.
Maybe it's a woman who'shaving a hot flash.

(47:50):
Like it doesn't even need to be definedas like, this is a menopause space.
This is a breastfeeding space.
This is a, this space.
Just make spaces that are, uh, flexiblefor people to engage in the health
activities that they, you know,need to for their own wellbeing.
We, you know, I think that it seems prettyclear that if folks are able to do that in
a place that feels like that's what it'sfor and intended, and there's not judgment

(48:12):
or stigma, then they can return to workand be their best selves at work too.

Yeah.
So important to start lookingat, uh, people as a human.
Funny enough to have to saythat, but it's the truth.
Yeah.
Yes.
Goodness.
Um, I just have a few more questions now.
Sure.
Um, to look at, uh, um, different thingsfrom a, uh, cultural, um, uh, uh, context.

(48:40):
One of the things that I, I, um, noticed,um, when I was growing up and I even
had this experience, um, and I didn'trealize it until I got older, um, uh,
'cause I'm, I'm originally actually,uh, uh, uh, born, um, in, in Jamaica
and then I came here, um mm-hmm.
Uh, but, um, and I grew up, uh, heremostly in the US and I remember, um, uh.

(49:07):
I forget what grade I was in.
I think it was like fifth or sixthgrade where they do the, the video
or whatever, um, for the girls,and then they take the boys.
Mm-hmm.
And you go through andyou're like, oh my gosh.
I remember everybody was like scared.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Because they're like, what'shappening does go pretty scary.
Mm-hmm.
What's happening?
They put you in a dark roomwith this video and mm-hmm.

(49:27):
I, I, and I remember, um, you know, uh,since I'm older, uh, I guess this was, uh,
was this like the eighties or something?
I, I forget like, um, uh, the exact year.
But it, uh, you know, they had,uh, like these videos were I think
from the seventies or something.
'cause I remember just howpeople were dressed and mm-hmm.

(49:48):
Um.
And, uh, I remember I was like,oh, I'm so glad that's not going to
happen to me, because they didn't haveanybody that was of, of the ethnicity.
So I was like, phew.
Yeah.
I'm gonna avoid that.
Yes.
Oh, that's, yep.
And I'm not included in that group.
Right, right.
So I was like, phew.
Right.

(50:08):
And, and, and I, so I didn't,uh, and so, um, you know, that
was just my personal experience.
Mm-hmm.
But then, um, mm-hmm.
Later on as I started to get to know otherpeople and, you know, and, uh, interview
different people about different things,I started to realize that in, in some
countries people weren't even aware.

(50:29):
That they were going to behaving a a period, um mm-hmm.
They weren't aware of, you know, how,um, to what, how pregnancy happens.
And so there was a, um, highpopulation of young, like teen
pregnancies and things like that.
And so, mm-hmm.
Uh, how do we, I guess, get, um, andthis is a, this is I guess you would

(50:51):
say, um, my pageant question for youis how do we start, um, getting other,
I guess, uh, cultures or countries,um, I guess okay with like letting
their, their female population knowthat these things are, are gonna happen
to them and, and get comfortable.
'cause I think it's extremely important.

Yeah.
That's a big, big question.
Um, and I think it's a, it is,it's really interesting to think
about it worldwide that, you know,women's health, women's I. Lives.
Women's, um, reproduction cyclesand all of that are, are viewed
differently in different countries.
Like for example, like Japan hasa very different sort of approach

(51:33):
to menopause than, than others.
Like, it's just much more of aseen as a positive, seen as a
normal, not really a big deal.
Like people are just sort oflike, this is, you know, kind of
a thing that happens and is kindof nice, um, transition for women.
Um, so, and then there are othercountries, like you said, that maybe
are even just sort of devoid of, of,of, or, or lacking in attention for

(52:00):
women or like giving the importance thatthese things matter and why not just to
society in terms of things like unplannedpregnancies and things like that, but to
the interpersonal experience of each girland woman who has to go through this.
Like, it's just, it's a lot.
Women do go through a lot more.
Um, changes and adaptationsand things with their bodies.

(52:25):
And because our bodies and our minds arecompletely connected, those things are,
um, challenging if we don't have guides.
I think the way that I think aboutit is like our societies hopefully
would be set up for intergenerationalguidance, but if the, the generation
before us isn't, hasn't been guided,then we have to start somewhere.

(52:45):
Um, and mentor folks, you know,like this almost guidance and
mentor type of an approach.
Um, there's something else I wantedto say about that, but I, I lost it.
Uh, I think, oh, the other thing I wantedto say about that is from your, your
experience is that representation matters.

(53:07):
Um, and as I started with this wholething is that everybody's experience
around menopause is, is different.
Um, and it's importantthat we try to represent.
Every, all women in this process,women of, you know, of from different
backgrounds, different races, differentsocioeconomic status, everybody

(53:29):
needs to have a place in this.
Um, I think there's, as anything inhealthcare, in, in, in our type of
society with capitalism and, and, um,the type of healthcare system we have
is that there is a risk of, uh, folksgetting care that is, um, socially

(53:53):
determined in terms of our status insociety, if you will, right there.
There's no doubt that our, that there'ssystematic healthcare marginalization
that's built into our system andthat women are impacted by that in
terms of gender and in terms of race.
Um, and so.
To, to me, even as a, you know, acisgender white woman, it is important

(54:14):
to me that, that, that I'm not the faceof this, like, that people like me are
not the only thing that you see thatother women's experiences are brought
forward, are brought to light that are,that other, that people who don't connect
with me can connect with her, can connectwith her, can connect with her, right?
Like that is really important to me.
Um, I think right now in this space,there's like not a lot of diversity.

(54:37):
Um, and, and hopefully that the, thatwill change in terms of women being
able to share their experiences andtheir expertise and their space,
and that we will be able to rise uptogether in those types of things.

Yes.
I, you know, I was gonna say, this is sortof on the same trajectory I, I guess as,
uh, the feminist movement a little bit.
Um, but um mm-hmm.
There's just, yes, rightnow, I have to confess.
No, it's overwhelming, I think rightnow to be a woman in the society.
Um, well, it's over.

(55:11):
Yes.
It feels heavy.
It feels heavy.
Maybe it's just me and I, I am justlike, uh, um, and I'm, uh, you know, um,
I'm always up for a vacation, but, um,uh, uh, but it just feels heavy, right?
And I have, it's, you know, and maybebecause it is that I got older and I
started really understanding and seeinglike, um, the, the complexities and the

(55:35):
pain of all different types of women inall different types areas and in so many
different, in so many different ways.
Um.
And, you know, uh, it's everythingfrom, you know, uh, you know,
economics to, uh, social mm-hmm.
To even, you know, um, just, uh, Iguess, um, I would say self-esteem

(55:59):
or just feeling okay about yourself.
I, you know, mm-hmm.
I, I, in the last, um, few years, I'vejust, uh, I've just understood things in
a, a, a whole different, um, complexity.
And it, and it, it, it just hurtmy heart, um, in so many ways.
'cause I could see, um, the pain ofwomen in, in, in so many different

(56:21):
areas and feeling, I guess, lost.
And that kind of leads me tomy, my, um, uh, my, uh, quest.
My final question for you is like,um, I think during this, this stage,
because, uh, you know, a lot ofinformation, uh, wasn't out there.
How do women, and this is maybe feellike another, um, pageant question.

(56:43):
Mm-hmm.
Um, how can women kind of not, uh,have that lost feeling and feel that
they can, um, I guess take controlof things that they can't control?
Because you, you can't really con,it's not like you can really, you know,
um, go out there and, uh, you know,uh, rodeo tie down menopause, right?

(57:04):
Yes.
Yes.
So, so, um, how, how, how dowomen not feel so lost anymore?

Yes.
Okay, so this is, I have two,two parts to the, this response.
So, and, and this really, reallymaps on with, um, how and why Ish was
developed is because when Dr. Shadyand I sat down together, you know,
it's hard for us to get together.
We don't live in the same city, butwe, you know, we live in Southern
California, so we would make thesedates, uh, usually a brunch date,

(57:37):
and we get together midway and havecoffee and talk about this together.
Um.
What we realized when we were talkingabout our experiences, both personally
and clinically in in the room and howwe were helping people and how we were
working people is the number one thing issupport and um, support is actually best.
It's, um, within your own, like, not,not necessarily medical support, right?

(58:00):
Or, or professional support, butlike, support within your communities.
So what's the first thing thata lot of us do when we are
like, maybe not the first thing.
Now these days when we're strugglingwith something, we Google it, right?
Or we like try to find like the answerson Google, but then we reach out to
somebody that we trust a little bit to bea little bit vulnerable with and we try to
connect with them, or we share with them.

(58:22):
And that's what happened with us.
I, you know, I don't even remember.
I could check my text messages,but at some point I must have told,
um, shoddy like, Hey, I'm feelingthis way and it's really hard.
And she was like, oh mygosh, that's Perry Menopause.
You know, something like that.
And then we connect around that andwe support one another around that.
And the thing is, is that.
This shouldn't just be aboutperimenopause and menopause because we

(58:44):
know that connection with other people,socialization and social connection is
one of the leading, leading most importantthings for longevity and, and happiness.
And not just happiness,but like living longer.
So this is a time to likekind of lean into that.
And that's what we're trying to do withMagician in many ways, is try to, to make
it a supportive place where people reachto each other and connect with each other.

(59:08):
So that's one thing.
The second thing I wanna say about yourquestion is like, how do we work with this
desire that our brains have to control?
Right?
And that is what ourdream brains wanna do.
Um, and, and, and, and in all cases,but in menopause, we're just like,
let me just get a hold of thisand like put it in the closet so I
don't have to deal with it anymore.
Like, let me control it.

(59:28):
But what we know is really in most thingsin life that are outside of our control
or have, you know, a limited control.
When we're trying to control the piecesthat are outside of our control, that's
where our suffering actually happens.
It's in the action and the approach andthe, the wanting or trying to control it.

(59:48):
So if we can give space forsomething, um, where we say, okay,
I have control in these ways, right?
I've talked to my doctor, I've started,you know, or let's just give an example.
I, you know, I had, Idid start a medication.
Um, I am doing my sleep hygiene.

(01:00:08):
I'm doing the things that Iknow can help me sleep the best.
Uh, those are the thingsI have control over.
I don't have control at this point intime now about my, um, irritability
sometimes, or about my hot flashes.
So the best thing to do is to say, I'mgonna like, let those be on board with me.
In my work as a psychologist,there's this, this metaphor,

(01:00:30):
I use a lot of metaphors.
One of the metaphors we talk about islike, it's called Passengers on a Bus.
And I totally recommend you,like even Google this, there's
videos that can give this.
One of them is like an airplane,passengers on airplane.
It's this idea that we allare carrying around with us.
Tough things, tough emotions, toughthoughts, um, tough experiences in life.

(01:00:50):
And they often are trying to kind ofpush us in different directions and
make us do things or, and we're thentrying to go back and control them.
Like, um, my mind is telling me allthe time, you're not good enough.
You get to stop this.
You, you know, da, da da da.
That's, that's a passengeron my bus, if you will.
My bus is trying to go in the directionof what's important to me, my values,

(01:01:13):
what is my why, what am I doing this for?
I'm trying to drive my bus that way,but I've got all these passengers
that are just like la da, da, da.
This idea of control is to actuallysort of, and I'm, you know, doing this
a little bit shorter because of time.
But the idea is that these passengers,the more you try to kick them off the bus,
the more you try to listen to them andgo in the direction that they wanna go.

(01:01:36):
The more miserable that you are, themore suffering you're experiencing.
So the idea is this, um, this ideaof letting them be with you, but not
engaging with them in those ways.
So you can think about it as like,you're driving your bus and there's
like, ah, there's like this yapping inthe background and dah, dah, dah, dah.
But you are still going in thedirection that's important to you.

(01:01:58):
You're not yelling at them.
You're not saying, get outlike, dah, dah, dah, dah.
You're letting this be, you're havingsome acceptance around, like, here's
gonna be some, um, some difficultthings, but I'm gonna keep moving

Annmarie Hylton (01:02:11):
forward even with them.
I like it.
Surrender and embrace at the same time.
I like that.

Dr. Autumn Backhaus (01:02:18):
Yeah.
It's like allowing for Yes.
Surrendering and embracing.
Like not in, not, not getting intothe, the other, the other metaphor
that we use is a tug of war.
Like you can just constantly be inthis tug of war with these things
that you don't have control over.
But like, then what are you doing?
You're spending your time and tug of war.
You're not spending your time towards,you know, spending time with your kids

(01:02:39):
or being like intentional and mindfuland, and focused with your kids or,
or, or at work or on your vacation.
Because what you're doing is you'respending your time towards whatever
it is you're struggling with, andthat's where that, that's lost, right?
You're, you're lost, you're losingwhat you're not doing instead.

And that right there, I would say is the definition of women.
'cause we're all, all jugglers.
Mm-hmm.
And, but we never, but we neverget to actually, um, uh, you know,
um, be in the moment and just say,okay, for everything else, uh.
Um, so yes.
Yes.
So it's, uh, yeah.

(01:03:18):
Quit juggling women.

Yeah.
And, and actually that's, if I don't,if you don't mind me making a plug
there, in terms of that, is thatmindfulness as a, is a word that
people are, has been overused andlike, not defined so well anymore.
It's like a too much of a generalistterm, but, um, like mindfulness practice
is actually one of the things that weknow is really, uh, can be helpful and

(01:03:41):
meaningful for, um, symptom management of,um, perimenopause and menopause and also
just in general is good for our health,like a true mindfulness intervention.
Um, and I say that becausemindfulness is about being in the
present moment, learning how to,to be there, um, without being.

(01:04:02):
You know, taking even fiveminutes away from your juggling,
'cause you're gonna juggle.
I'm not saying I'm taking away thejuggling, that's just like what we
do, but we don't have to do it 24 7.
Um, we can make space to like actuallylook our kids in the eyes when they're
telling us something and be present withlike, what their little face looks like
when they say like, Hey, watch we do this.
Versus, you know, like, but it takesintention and it takes a little practice,

(01:04:26):
but it's so meaningful in our life to beable to do that, to hold space for those
things, even brief moments in our day addup to really refreshing and regenerating,
regenerating, regenerating us.
Um, and like kind of going into thatspark that I talked about earlier.

And I like it.
You know, I've, I've, uh, that's,you know, one of my personal biggest
hell hurdles is always being present.
But when I find that I can do that mm-hmm.
I feel so calm.
Mm-hmm.
Because then I'm like, in thatmoment, I don't have any troubles.

Mm-hmm.
Yes, yes.
It's, and it's a practice and it's,but it's absolutely something that
we help women do impractical ways.
So we are not about like, okay,let's sit and meditate together
for two hours and do that.
Like, no, that'd be great, probably.
But no, we're teaching folks how toactually incorporate this into their
lives in small, meaningful ways.

(01:05:19):
So the other thing that we know abouthealth, from health psychology standpoint
is we can't just tell women what to do.
Like they already haveheard that a million times.
You need to lose weight,you need to be more healthy.
You need to, you know,mind take down your stress.
That's not helpful just to be told that I.
Uh, that's where we come in and we cansay, okay, what is it that you wanna do?
What is it that is your why, your goal?

(01:05:42):
Let's break it down into a place that'sactually doable, that's meaningful
that we can accomplish, and take itin steps and help you look at your
own personal barriers that might begetting in the way to success with that.
Um, and so we make it, we help womenmake it doable, um, for their own
experience of like what they wantto do, not necessarily what somebody

(01:06:04):
told them they should do or whatever,because it has to come from within you.
There has to be a place in you that says,this is why, this is my value around.
Why I wanna change my diet, youknow, and I wanna start, and okay,
I wanna have a healthier diet.
Okay, but what does that mean, right?
We need to break it down.
Well, I don't drink water at all.
Okay, well, should we start there?
You know, where, where,what feels good to you?

(01:06:26):
Where do you wanna start?
Let us help you support that.
What gets in the wayof you drinking water?
How can we incorporate it?
Right?
Like, so that's the pieces thatI think women can benefit from.
Help in supportive environmentswith each other, with guidance
from folks who know how to kind ofthink about these in meaningful and
approachable and achievable ways.

(01:06:46):
I love it.

Thank you, Dr. Bku, for your time and insight.
To learn more about Dr.
Autumn Bku, go to my midis.com.
Spelled M-Y-M-I-D-I-S h.com.
Or you can find her atConnect and grow now.com.
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem, or

(01:07:08):
wanna change minds contact project, goodwork at Project, good Work to start your
project of Change today, subscribe toour mailing list at Project Good Work
slash subscribe to get our episodes andblog articles sent to you each month.
To our listeners, thanks fortuning in to Project Good.
We're focused on what matters.

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