October 30, 2025 • 51 mins
Trailblazing Science Diplomacy with Dr. Zara Lurman
In this episode of Project Good podcast, host Annmarie Hilton interviews Dr. Zara Lurman, a renowned chemist, educator, and peacebuilder who has pioneered the use of science diplomacy to foster collaboration in conflict regions. Dr. Lurman discusses her extraordinary journey from growing up in conflict-ridden Israel to becoming a global advocate for science education and human rights. Key topics include her innovative methods of teaching science through the arts, her extensive work with underprivileged communities, and the founding of the Malta Conferences, which unite scientists from hostile nations to tackle global challenges. This episode highlights Dr. Lurman's impactful career and her vision for using science to create a more peaceful and collaborative world.
00:00 Introduction to Project Good Podcast
00:32 Global Conflicts Overview
01:25 Interview with Dr. Zara Lurman
03:54 Dr. Lurman's Childhood and Early Influences
16:43 Innovative Science Education Methods
32:01 Human Rights and Political Activism
41:13 The Malta Conferences for Peace
50:38 Conclusion and Call to Action
Dr. Zafra Lerman is a world-renowned chemist, educator, and peacebuilder who has pioneered the use of science diplomacy to foster dialogue and collaboration in the world’s most volatile regions. As founder and president of the Malta Conferences Foundation, she brings together scientists from countries in conflict—including Israel, Palestine, Iran, Iraq, and others across the Middle East—to work side by side on scientific challenges that transcend borders, from water scarcity to nuclear proliferation. Beyond diplomacy, Dr. Lerman has spent decades fighting for human rights—advocating for persecuted scientists in the Soviet Union and China, including risking her own safety by venturing after midnight through dark alleys in Moscow to meet dissidents. She also developed groundbreaking methods to teach science through the arts, reaching underprivileged students, including homeless youth and incarcerated individuals, by making chemistry accessible through music, dance, and visual storytelling. Her work has been recognized globally, including multiple Nobel Peace Prize nominations, the U.S. Presidential Award for Mentoring Minorities in Science presented by President Bill Clinton, and the prestigious Andrei Sakharov Award for Human Rights from the American Physical Society. She has also been honored by UNESCO, the U.S. State Department, and leading peace and science organizations worldwide. In 2025, she was awarded the International Advocate of Peace Award. Previous awardees include President Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Bishop Tutu, and Sir Paul McCartney With a powerful personal story and decades of experience at the intersection of science, education, and diplomacy, Dr. Lerman offers unforgettable conversations about international cooperation, women in STEM, human rights, and how science can be a force for peace. She is also the author of the memoir, Human Rights and Peace: A Personal Odyssey, which shares the dramatic true stories behind her life’s work. Proceeds support future Malta Conferences and peacebuilding efforts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Annmarie Hylton (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Project Good podcast.
I'm your host, Annmarie Hilton.
Project Good is a social impact podcast,interviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is to inspireour people and organizations to develop a
mindset that can move others to positiveaction regarding the complex social
(00:23):
issues facing people and the planet.
For October, we're focused on theroad ahead with Dr. Zara Lurman.
It's no secret that as a planet and globalsociety we're facing catastrophic issues.
According to a recent report from theGeneva Academy, there are more than 45
armed conflicts currently taking placethroughout the Middle East and North
(00:45):
Africa, and the following territories,Cyprus, Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Libya,
Morocco, Palestine, Syria, Turkey,Yemen, and the Western Sahara.
There are 35 non-national armedconflicts taking place in Africa.
Asia has 19 non-national armed conflicts.
Europe has seven armed conflicts, andthere are six non-international armed
(01:09):
conflicts taking place in the region.
Split between Mexico and Columbiaand the United States is in a state
of political upheaval and distress.
With so much conflict andopposition, how can people come
back together for the better?
Today I have the pleasure ofinterviewing Dr. Luhrman, who may
(01:29):
hold one of the keys to the answer.
She's a whirlwind known chemist,educator, author Peacebuilder, who has
pioneered the use of science diplomacyto foster dialogue and collaboration
the world's most volatile regions.
As founder and president of the MaltaConferences Foundation, she brings
together scientists from countries inconflict, including Israel, Palestine,
(01:51):
Iran, Iraq, and across the Middle East.
To work side by side on scientificchallenges that transcend borders from
water scarcity to nuclear prolification.
Beyond diplomacy.
Dr. Luhrman has spent decades fighting forhuman rights, advocating for persecuted
scientists in the Soviet Union and China,including risking her own safety by
(02:12):
venturing after midnight through darkalleys in Moscow to meet dissidents.
She's also the author of the memoir,human Rights and Peace, a personal
Odyssey, which shares the dramatictrue story behind her life's work.
Let's get into the interview.
(02:38):
Born in Israel, a regionknown to understand conflict.
Dr. Luhrman developed groundbreakingmethods to teach science
through arts, which has helpedchange the world for good.
Dr. Luhrmann's work has changedlives of underprivileged children,
including homeless, youthand incarcerated individuals.
By making chemistry accessible throughmusic, dance, and visual storytelling.
(03:02):
Her work has been recognized globally,including multiple Noble Police prize
nominations, the US Presidential Awardbeing given to her by Bill Clinton
for mentoring minorities in science.
And the prestigious Andre ZoffAward for Human Rights from
the American Physical Society.
She has also been honored by unesco, theUS State Department, and leading peace
(03:26):
and science organizations worldwide.
In 2025, she was awarded the InternationalAdvocate of Advocate of Peace Award.
Previous awardees include Bill,bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Bishop
Tutu, and Sir Paul McCartney.
Welcome, Dr. Lurman.
Dr Zafra Lerman (03:44):
Thank you very, uh, much Maryanne for
inviting me to join your program.
Annmarie Hylton (03:49):
Yes, I'm very excited, excited about our conversation.
Um, but before we get into the interview,I always like to understand the heart
of who I'm interviewing, and so I wouldlike to know what your childhood was like
and how did it shape you to become a,from a scientist and embrace creativity
and have this deep love for people.
Dr Zafra Lerman (04:12):
My childhood was wonderful because we
were a developing country.
We had nothing.
So as children, we had to bevery creative to even have toys.
We didn't have toys.
Only children that had relatives inAmerica were getting care packages
(04:32):
with toys and clothes were, mm-hmm.
For us, clothes was rationed.
So, but I think it was a wonderfulchildhood because we could
do what we wanted and really.
Uh, develop a lot of,uh, things like toys.
(04:57):
We had to create them.
We had to create group activitiesby ourself from a very young age,
and I think that this is developing.
A very special character, but it's reallydeveloping the creativity new because,
(05:18):
eh, eh, you have to be very creativeto make toys from nothing and teams.
From nothing, and I think it'smuch healthier than what I see.
I have a school next tome and I see the big SUV.
(05:38):
Every SUV is a mother waiting forone child, grabbing them when they
come out of school directly homeso they can drive them to the next
program that they arrange for them.
We, our parents were very busy.
They not arrange programs for us,so we had to hygiene, and I think
(06:03):
it's a very, it, uh, it was a verygood childhood and probably is.
Responsible for all the differentthings I did in my life.
In addition, uh, growing up with a very,with a family of activists, uh, I remember
(06:26):
till now that by the age of six, uh.
I graduated from kindergarten and oneday I went and I saw the kid, a child,
and I came home and I said, I graduated.
I'm not going back.
And my father said, whatdo you mean you are going?
(06:47):
I said, I'm not going back.
So he said, what are you going to do?
I said, you are veryinfluential in the politics.
So you arranged for meto go to first grade.
S and this what happened, I was theyoungest one and I went to first
grade, and I remember that by the ageof six for my birthday, I got up in
(07:10):
the morning and I had in my shoe, eh.
I opened this envelope and there wasa letter from my father, and this
should give you the idea how I grew up.
The letter said, today's your birthday.
I hope you will grow up to be loyal.
(07:30):
To your country, to yournation, and to your family.
Six years old and uh, probablyhere, somebody would get a
teddy bear for the birthday.
But anyhow, it's be loyal to your country,to your nation, and to your family.
And for your birthday, I giveyou this amount of money, but
(07:52):
you have to divide it to three.
One part you have to give to thenational fund to plant trees.
So we are helping thearid land to become great.
One part you have to donate tothe children from the Holocaust
(08:15):
that are orphans and losttheir parents so they can have.
Some things that they need.
In one field, you can do what you want.
When you grow up like that from the ageof six, you grow up very differently,
Annmarie Hylton (08:34):
I would say so.
Wow.
Dr Zafra Lerman (08:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So this was really shaped my life.
Annmarie Hylton (08:42):
So, um, well, I, I guess it was on both ends.
You already were a very,are a strong minded child.
Uh, from my parents'
Dr Zafra Lerman (08:53):
point of view too much.
Yes.
And I'm sure from theteacher's point of view too,
but they were supportive of you.
Yes.
Very much brought it, but,uh, I don't think it was easy.
(09:15):
But, uh, I describe in my book how.
Uh, when, you know, war, were alwaysin the Middle East, so we had to run
to the shelter and usually few familiestogether built a shelter together.
(09:36):
So from the age of three or twoeven, I was the happiest child to
hear the siren to go to the shelter.
Why?
I had only one brother.
10 years older, so we were not childrenthat could play together, but when
we went to the shelter, I suddenlyhad a lot of children to play with.
(10:00):
So I loved when the siren came on.
I was crying when the siren.
Aim again because it hadto go out of the shelter.
And I thought, that is wonderful.
I am like in a playground.
Why do I have to go out of it?
So it's a, it's a very interestingthings that people would think, well,
(10:25):
dramatic for me, it was a pleasure.
And I describe all these, uh,different things in my book.
Even the small power that we didn'thave hot showers, so there was
only one place in the middle of thetown that had hot shower and we.
(10:49):
At very young age, kids alone were gettingall of us together to go to think, shower.
And one day I came home and myfather very proudly told me that
they installed the hot shower.
And I will not have to go tothe central shower anymore.
(11:09):
And I cried for a whole day that myparents just want to spoil my social life.
So they went and installedhot shower in their house.
So I will not be able to takea shower with all my friends.
I thought that it's aterrible thing what they did.
Annmarie Hylton (11:32):
You, you, so you had already a very, um, uh, I guess, um,
different perspective obviously, um,because, um, and, and also because
you were a child, so you weren'tunderstanding probably the dangers.
Um, uh, but that is the beauty ofchildhood and I think that mind
(11:54):
frame must have, um, sat with you.
Um, of course, you know, as you gotolder you understood the complexities
and the danger, but that willingnessto have a different perspective
of things than other people,
Dr Zafra Lerman (12:10):
there's a true, but I have to say that I just came back
from this crazy part of the world.
And thing, both the Palestinian andIsraelis that participate in MAL
conferences, and I had to go to theshelter and I sent a picture of.
(12:39):
Me the shelter to my family'schat and my daughter-in-law
wrote back to me and said, why?
If you are in a shelter, youlook so relaxed and happy.
So I something, it wasspill there from the chat.
She said, what are you happy?
What are you sitting in?
(13:07):
I read it in the shelter and everybodystarted laughing from this comment.
Annmarie Hylton (13:14):
Yes.
Well, that's, um, I, I, that, I guessthat leads to me, to my, my next question.
So I guess as you grew up then, and, um,you were living in this, uh, this region
that was known and is still known, uh,for a high, high conflict and, and, um.
(13:36):
I would say adapting to life ina, a whole different perspective.
And um, and then also, I guess,um, as you, as you're growing
up, I guess, uh, why did you pickscience or did science pick you?
Dr Zafra Lerman (13:50):
I think science picked me.
I think I knew that I'll bea scientist from the age.
Two, eh, I was fascinated by twins.
I had identical twins.
So by the age of two, Iwas bothering my parents.
Where is my identical twin?
And they said, you don't have one.
(14:12):
So I was sitting for hoursin front of the mirror.
And I thought that myidentical twin is there.
I'm seeing her and myparents said, it's you.
I said, if it's me, how am I there?
How, how can it be that I'm there?
And I was it.
Opening the door where the mirrorwas on and I didn't see anything
(14:37):
and I said, how can I be there?
And was asking very complicated question.
Oh, I remember by the age of three,suddenly we got some box and my father
was listening and I held the box to head.
This is the voice of Jerusalem.
(14:59):
I lived in Haifa, so I started saying,voice of Jerusalem, how can I live in
Haifa and here the voice of Jerusalem?
So I was asking these questions froma very, very young age, and then.
Because I was a year youngerthan my class, I was seven.
(15:20):
When I was in third grade.
Our teacher did not come.
So the principal came in and said, youare now following me to eighth grade
where I have to teach an algebra class.
And you will sit on the floor,uh, around and be quiet.
And this is what we had to do with Kay.
(15:41):
We sat on the floor and he wasteaching an algebra class, and he put a
question and he said, who can solve it?
And nobody in the class could solve it.
After three timesasking, I raised my hand.
I said I can solve it.
And he said, you, didanybody teach you algebra?
I said, no, but I knowto solve your problem.
(16:05):
So he said, get up andcome to the black belt.
I came and he gave me thetruck and I solved the problem.
And then he started telling me, in everylanguage in the world how excellent I am.
I sent a letter to my parentswith a sentence from the Bible
that said that I am like a treegrowing along the water and W Wow.
(16:32):
Wow.
So science found me from a very young age.
I did not have any doubtsthat I'll be a scientist.
Annmarie Hylton (16:42):
Okay.
Well then how did you then, because thisis, this is just for most people who are
on the, uh, like in, uh, the scientificfield, um, tend to be, um, always thinking
more on a, I guess, linears perspective.
And you have incorporated art anddance and, you know, most artists
(17:07):
and a lot of, uh, dancers tend to.
I guess, you know, it's kind of likethe right brain versus the left brain.
Um, so, you know, how did you find thatyou, uh, I guess liked dance besides,
of course, maybe going out and partying.
Dr Zafra Lerman (17:24):
Uh,
I did the research and those asked meto explain on isotope effect at Cornell
University, Northwestern University in theUS and Swiss politically in Switzerland.
And then I was very bad with the facthow so many people stay away from
(17:48):
science, and especially the fact.
Of the Underrepresenation in thescientific community of a lot of
groups and because as you mentioned,I worked for years in human
rights and saved a lot of people.
This is why I got hungrysoccer of the world.
(18:11):
I, this is, I always said thatscience education is a human
rights that belong to all and.
The president of Columbia College inChicago that was a visionary, made an
offer in Columbia College, was an openadmission, very high minorities School
(18:36):
of Ham communication, and he offered meto come and start the science and Math
department from scratch to do what I want.
And I knew one thing that my studentscannot be taught the way I was taught
because the people that know froma very young age that they will be
(18:59):
scientists, you know, even was teacherswill not persuade them otherwise.
And I had bad teachers and sothey had PhDs, but so I really.
Debated How will I teach?
(19:19):
And the first class that I taughtwas chemistry in Daily Life.
And I put an equationand I realized a lot of.
Blanketed the eyes and one of my dancestudents got up and said, oh, I know
how to choreograph this as a dance.
(19:42):
I said, really?
How will you choreograph?
So she asked the people to get up andshe assigned chemicals and the dance,
the reaction, and then everybodysay, oh, this is how it works.
Now I understand it.
And then I tried to explain somethingon Chris Holst and one of the Al
(20:04):
student got up and we had a projectingmicroscope that he put a drop of a
solution on the slide and it lookedlike the Japanese flag with a round red
spot in the middle, and then purple.
(20:25):
Feather started coming out becausethe water was evaporating and it
was like somebody's painting amodern painting in front of you.
And I said, oh, it's beautiful.
And all the students wantedto know about crystals.
So I said to myself, I better learnfrom my students how to teach and.
(20:50):
I really learned from mystudents how to teach.
So I always mentioned that the more than40 international awards that I got for
education or I owe it to my students thatwere my teachers showing me how to teach.
(21:10):
And then in order to show that it'sreally science notes, Mickey Mouse.
I persuaded the chair of chemistry atPrinceton University, who was on my
human rights committee that I chaired,and the chair of Indiana University.
And I said, look guys, thisis an Ivy League school.
(21:32):
This is a private aid.
This is one of the big 10 statesschool and Columbia College
is open admission inner city.
Very high minorities.
We are the whole spectrum of anycollege in the in university in the us.
Why don't we develop a classfor non-science majors together?
(21:56):
And they liked the idea and wedeveloped a class title from
ozone to oil spill Chemistry.
The Environment New and the NationalScience Foundation funded us and they,
we, the three of us worked together andthey adopted my methods of teaching.
(22:19):
So they student could, we were assessingthe students, not by multiple choice, but.
Any way they want to show theirknowledge, they could dance it, they
could act it, they could sing it,they could do everything they want.
And the National Science Foundationcalled it the Flagship project,
(22:42):
and it became very famous and itwas adopted in a lot of university.
Colleges and I was invited to lecturepractically all over the world.
We even adopted a school districtof Soweto in South Africa because I
received the first international awardin the new Democratic South Africa.
(23:07):
In science education.
So it, it gave me the opportunityto visit, uh, schools in South
Africa and adapt them and teachtheir teachers to teach in this way.
And then this National ScienceFoundation gave me a lot of money.
(23:29):
To teach the teachers of the ChicagoPublic School how to teach this way,
and it became a very, very big, thepresident of Columbia College asked me
after that, after I shared for 10 yearsthe science and math department to open a
(23:49):
science institute with a graduate school.
School that will allow people to learnhow to teach and become science teachers.
And it became very famous.
So there, but it started for medeciding that also I love research, but
I have to do something with the factof the underrepresenation of a lot of
(24:13):
groups in the scientific community.
Annmarie Hylton (24:18):
Yes.
And that that kind of, um.
Goes off of today's like, uh, uh, I guesspush for, um, stem, I guess, um, um, just
a, as a a side opinion, I guess, whatdo you feel, um, about, uh, I guess, uh,
today's approach, uh, I guess specificallyin the US uh, on the push of stem, do, do
(24:40):
you feel that, um, I guess that it's beingdone correctly or that it needs to be.
Um, thought of a little bit differently.
Dr Zafra Lerman (24:50):
The problem in education is not the students.
It's, I said I wasinterviewed on, what was it?
A, B, C. There was a program, someoneyou should know in Chicago, and I was
interviewed there and I said, if youwill bring the best teachers to the inner
(25:12):
city in Chicago, you will get the beststudents in the inner city in Chicago.
If you bring the best students to then.
Northern suburbs, no.
Very advanced teacher.
And you put the worst teachers there.
What do you expect?
So I feel that the, it's the qualityof the teaching that because, uh.
(25:40):
I got the Science Institutethat I was the head.
We got a lot of money to buildSTEM academies in the inner city
of Chicago in school that wereinfested with drugs and, uh.
And again, and nobody wanted to go tothese schools if they wanted to study.
(26:03):
And we build these academies andit became so famous that students
wanted to go there because graduationpercent is in Chicago, public school
is very low, but for my academy itwas 98% and 98% went to college.
So.
But you know, when the superintendentof the school changed and felt that
(26:32):
science is not the most important, Ialways said he probably flanked science,
so therefore it, but it's not important.
Therefore I will not say who he was.
But, uh, but all that disappeared and,uh, this is the problem with education.
(26:54):
That all the time.
The talks that is really politics, whenit changes, good things that are proven,
that are working, are disappearing.
And this is the problem with education.
Annmarie Hylton (27:10):
Yes.
And I would say that, um, uh, if Iwas going to, um, uh, do a comparison.
That, um, uh, sadly that, uh,teaching, um, was your first war zone.
Dr Zafra Lerman (27:27):
It was, oh God was, that was, uh, you cannot believe when I, the
first time came, uh, to give a lecturein a scientific, uh, conference before
I involved Princeton in Indiana, thatI was almost attacked by the scientist.
How dare I could teach science like that.
(27:50):
And when we had the programtogether, my class flew.
Every year to Princeton for a jointsymposium for all my students.
It was the first timeeven going on a plane.
So all the media came tocover always our joint meet.
And they called it themeeting of two cultures
(28:13):
because it was like two cultures.
Annmarie Hylton (28:16):
And that's what I was, uh, thinking too, because you were working
with the inner city and especially.
Um, I know things obviouslyhave, uh, changed to some aspect.
It's a, a little bit different, but,um, especially, uh, I would say in the
seventies and the eighties and, um,when, uh, um, you know, integration
(28:37):
was just, uh, um, starting, um,specifically in the u uh, in the us.
Um.
Uh, it, it was definitely a, uh, youversus, um, uh, them, um, culture and, uh,
education as we know, uh, was, um, the.
(28:59):
I guess the, the initial place wherewe could see the, the youth being
introduced into the society, like,um, you know, of the, like separate
and equal, um, was discussed.
So, um, what a, I guess a trainingground then to go into the political
realm and I guess, um, I guessnot to be funny, but in a way.
(29:24):
But you're dealing with olderchildren that still don't wanna share
and, and have these conflicts, butunfortunately they have weapons.
Dr Zafra Lerman (29:34):
Yeah.
But, uh, I just want tomention that in my book.
So it's total human rights in peace.
There is a huge chapter on myway of teaching with examples.
Or how the theater students dealtwith it, how the dance students,
(29:57):
how the music students, theyare all examples with pictures.
So for people that would like to teach,we worked with the parents too because
we felt that it's important for the.
Parents to be able to help their children.
So it's all that described in avery long chapter in this book too.
(30:22):
And it showed how, and I always usedto tell my students, what you learn in
my class is really critical thinking.
And they loved how I pronounced it.
So they were making fun of me all thetime, imitating my accent and saying.
Critical thinking is important and,but I have very successful students
(30:46):
in Hollywood in a lot of places.
I was invited to the Emmy Award when oneof my students got, and he said that they
all say that their success is the criticalthinking that they learned in my classes
and the projects in their major that.
(31:08):
Well, communicating science,this would help them to be so
successful in their own fields.
Annmarie Hylton (31:18):
Yes.
No.
Um, you know, I was, as you were,um, talking and telling your, your
stories, I was seeing how then, um,how you took, um, the learnings from
the classroom and then put it ontothe political stage because, you know,
it, it's all dealing with people.
(31:41):
And so what then made you in your life?
Um, or what, uh, I guess, uh,was it a, um, did you have a,
like an epiphany day, a personallike, um, um, move in your heart?
What made you turn to, uh,like the political, um.
(32:01):
Uh, parts of life or what, whatmade you, uh, made you start,
uh, fighting for human rights?
I know that you, you grew up in a familythat was like that, but uh, as an adult.
What made you actually do that?
Uh, take that route.
Dr Zafra Lerman (32:17):
Scientists were targeted in a lot of countries and
especially in the Soviet Union andthen in China after Kamen Square, and
a lot of them were the human rights.
Was abused and the American ChemicalSociety uh, nominated me to be
(32:42):
the chair of the Committee onScientific Freedom and Human Rights.
And I chair this committee for 26 years,usually a chair committee for three years.
I don't think there were manyvolunteers to take it over because
I did not just charity in the us.
(33:03):
I really traveled to the SovietUnion, traveled to China after
German Square because I always feltthat everybody should help people.
Trouble.
And uh, I always used to tell mystudents too, you must make sure
(33:28):
that you came to make this planeta better place before you leave it.
So, and I used to tell my students,uh, before you go to sleep
every day, think about somethinggood you did for somebody else.
Not for yourself.
And if you come up with the factthat you did, you had a good day.
(33:51):
This is a good day.
So this is, I always lived by thisprinciple and when a lot of scientists in
the Soviet Union will send to labor campand fired from their, uh, jobs, asked for.
Wanting to immigrate, uh, all that.
I felt that it's my committee'sresponsibility to help, and this
(34:16):
is why I went to the Soviet Union.
I took a crash course in Russian.
Uh, so I will not need a KGB translator.
Mm-hmm.
So I was going always after midnight inDark Ali meeting with, uh, dissidents.
And then, uh, we would gettogether in dark ethics at.
(34:41):
Two o'clock in the morning, and thisis where I distributed scientific
material, what was illegal subjectunion among the scientist to have
access to any scientific material.
And, uh, I, uh, gavea seminar was illegal.
I collected all these TVs, not onlyfor the people that were there,
(35:05):
but people that were in hard laborin Siberia or were in prison.
So we can, I can bring it allback to the US and walk on behalf.
To release them from, uh, thehard labor and the prison.
And even the ones that were not inprison, they were fired from the
(35:29):
work, but then they were blamedfor being parasites in the nation.
So these people needed the help and, uh.
I did a lot for them.
There are a lot of people that arefree and say thank you to me, so
this is, you have a good in there.
(35:51):
As I said, and in my book there is alot of, uh uh, there is a big chapter
about that, all the risks and dangersthat it took, but there are some funny.
Uh, stories about the, that happened withthe people when they were released, so.
(36:12):
It's in my book.
People should read the book.
Yes, definitely.
See how they, it's a book thatcalls, it's a memoir, it has
in that romance and all that.
I did not neglect that part of my life.
Annmarie Hylton (36:29):
I was gonna, I was gonna ask, um, uh, not about
the romance necessarily, but,but I guess as a, as a woman.
A woman, and, and you know.
When we look back, you know, and stillwomen as we see in society are having,
uh, you know, difficulties and conflict.
(36:49):
Did you ever, did that ever slow you downor did you just, or you were just like.
You didn't, I, I've gotta do my thing.
Dr Zafra Lerman (36:56):
You didn't slow me down, but I thought it was very funny.
But I was used to be, becausein high school I was already
the only girl in my class.
'cause we had to pass very hard test.
It was a high school specialfor math and science.
So I learned.
To be the only woman with faulty,only girl with faulty boys, and being
(37:21):
probably the biggest troublemaker.
So when the teacher would kick meout, all the boys would scream.
You kicked out all thegirls from the class.
So I was used.
Yes.
But there were funnythings, uh, in a conference.
I was sitting and waiting in thecorridor for somebody and I had the
(37:42):
badge and three men walked by andthey said, uh, are you a chemist?
And I said, yes.
And they said, you don't look like one.
I said, thank you.
I take it as a compliment and, uh.
I remember my husband, who passed awaynot long ago, used to accompany me.
(38:03):
He was an economist to a lot ofconferences, and the chemist and all these
conferences would explain to him about theresearch and he said, I don't understand.
What did you talk to me?
She's the chemist, notI, but it didn't matter.
They continued to talk to him, not to me,and we were laughing because he did not.
(38:26):
Than one word what they're talking.
So, but we took everything as a, asfunny that you can do a comedy outta it.
So yes, for sure.
I, I grew up since my high school dayswhere I was the only girl in my class.
(38:46):
My mother used to, to make fun ofme that every teenager girl has
her best girlfriends and I havemy best girlfriends, some boys.
Annmarie Hylton (38:58):
Well, I guess in if, uh, in some ways, uh, it made you,
uh, really be able to understand men.
Oh, no
Dr Zafra Lerman (39:05):
doubts.
Sometimes I think I know to get alongwith them better than women because I
never had to interact very much and theonly time I interacted and got the shock
of my life is when I was drafted tothe military and suddenly found myself.
In a barrack with 50 girls, and thiswas the shock of my life when they
(39:32):
were talking subject that I and myboys in my class never discussed.
This was a big shock.
Annmarie Hylton (39:44):
Yes.
Yeah, in some ways probablywere like, what a nightmare.
It,
it was, yes.
I a, that's just a personal side, butI just, you know, um, many years ago
I went on a girls trip with 10 womenand I was like, what a nightmare.
Dr Zafra Lerman (40:04):
It, you know, when you are not used to that,
it's a very different world.
It's a very different world.
It is, but uh, I grew up overthat since the age of 13.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then you had a brotherinstead of a sister.
I never had a sister.
(40:25):
I never had a daughter,only boys in my family.
So it's, yes, I think sometimes,oh, it's nice maybe to surround, be
surrounded only by women, but I neverhad this experience and, uh, I'm
(40:45):
still looking for this experience.
Annmarie Hylton (40:50):
Yes, it is.
It's hard to find good girlfriends.
Dr Zafra Lerman (40:52):
Yeah.
So this is, uh, we are comingto, uh, you want to ask
something about the Middle East?
Annmarie Hylton (41:03):
Yes.
Yes.
About the conference?
Yes, I was actually, thatwas my next question.
And so, um, what, uh, I guess we'llstart from the beginning, I guess.
Um, what led you to developthe Malta conference?
Um, and, um, I guess, uh, why, why Malta?
Uh, I know it's great, but, um,but, um, in, in, in developing
(41:28):
that conference, was that, um, Iknow you had, uh, you had some, uh,
collaborations and of course, um, otherscientists were, uh, jumped on board.
Um, but I guess whatled you to develop it,
Dr Zafra Lerman (41:40):
uh, when September 11 happened in the us?
I came to my committee and said Our titleis Scientific Freedom in Human Rights,
and as scientist, we have the obligationnow to concentrate on the Middle East too.
(42:04):
I said, scientists have aresponsibility that other people
don't have because science is asubject that can cut life short.
But can extend life.
No weapon of math destruction canbe developed without scientists.
Therefore, scientistshave the responsibility.
(42:28):
To use their science for peace.
Now, if science is the very internationallanguage, a scientist from a chemist from
Pennsylvania and a chemist from Belemin the West Bank can communicate their
research very well with no language.
Just with a chemical notation.
(42:50):
So science doesn't see a language, doesn'tsee religion, doesn't see culture there.
It's the same science all over.
And therefore I thought that if we havea conference when we bring together
scientists from all the Middle East.
(43:15):
Really all the countries in the MiddleEast, with no exception, well sure.
The Israelis and the Palestinian, butso is the, the Iraqis and the Syrian and
the, the, the Jordanian and the Egyptian,the, all the countries in the Middle East.
For five days, no accompanyingmembers, not to dilute our
(43:39):
solution, our interaction.
Every chemist knows that if you add waterto a solution, you dilute the reaction.
So no accompanying memberwith several Laureate.
With everybody being in the samehotel, eating all the meals together,
(43:59):
participating in all the workshop,interactive workshop together and the
social events together, that an asimportant as the scientific part and
giving them a platform to see what unitesthem instead of what separates them.
(44:19):
To give them a platform to stopdemonizing the unknown other, and
to give them a platform to developcollaborations and friendships
and friendships that can overcomethe chasms of distrust and
(44:42):
intolerance, and it warped.
The first time we had the first conferencein the, on the island of Malta, 2003.
Why Malta?
Because it's an island, and in my mind, anisland is safer than a mainland because.
(45:06):
It is group of people whoknows who would like to attack.
So I thought an island will be safer.
It was in the midst of identifi.
Identifi is the uprising of the, uh,Palestinian with a lot of, uh, IC bombs
that were in all the restaurants inIsrael and the buses and all that, and.
(45:33):
We needed security fora conference like that.
So I thought Malta will be mm-hmm.
A, a good place because it's an island.
Mm-hmm.
And eh, we had the firstconference in 2003 and I thought,
I'm organizing one conference.
(45:55):
And it was unbelievable because atthe end conference of the conference,
it looks more like a family reunionsaying goodbyes with tears in the eyes
than a meeting with scientists fromcountries that are hostile to each other.
But what I didn't take into accountthat they will vote to have another one.
(46:19):
And another one, and another one,and it's going on since 2003.
It's got the name, the Malta Francis,because the first one was in Malta,
the first and the second was in Malta.
The third was Istan.
Turkey.
The first was in Amman, Jordan, the fifth.
(46:43):
We were invited to UNESCO in Paristo their headquarter because it was
the international year of chemistrydeclared by the un, and they wanted
the multis, one of the last events,like the finale of the of chemistry.
Then for multi six, we went back.
To Malta, Malta seven.
(47:05):
We went to AK Morocco, Malta, 8, 9, 10.
We went to Mal game and nowMalta 11 is going to Bajan.
So, and there are a lot of verypositive collaboration on water, on
(47:28):
education, on energy, and uh, allthat I'm going back is describing my
book that just came out in paperback.
'cause they sold it veryexpensive with this hardcover.
Yes, so now it's in paperback, veryreasonably, and I recommend for people
(47:53):
to read it because it starts with mychildhood and has education in that,
and the fight for human rights andthe fight for peace, and it can show
everybody that they can do somethingto make the planet a better place.
You can see what one woman.
(48:14):
The king to the US as a single mothercan do to make the planet a better
place so everybody can join me.
He suggest they read the book and join mein the effort to make the planet a place.
Annmarie Hylton (48:34):
Yes, you've had a outstanding, uh, outstanding life.
Um, I, I love that.
Um, uh, I didn't think about it, butwhen I was thinking back to my own,
uh, chemistry and science, uh, classes,um, of how much that science, and
especially chemistry, it's a language.
(48:55):
You know, you have the formulas and havingthat language, being able to be trans,
uh, translated across borders, right?
And, um, and that, um, unitingpeople and, you know, uh, I guess
to be even on an esoteric level.
Um, everything around us on this planetis, is made out of some kind of chemistry.
(49:20):
Everything is chemistry.
Dr Zafra Lerman (49:22):
The medication, everybody takes.
This chemistry, the antibioticsthat saves a lot of life wouldn't
be here before without chemistry.
The clothes you wear.
Breathes chemistry.
Uh, the cows you drivehave a lot of chemistry.
The batteries on chemistry thatallowed us all the communication.
(49:46):
There is nothing that youwill take into your hand.
Even this bottle, thisplastic is chemistry.
There is nothing that you cantouch that is not chemistry.
Therefore, we saychemistry is the central.
Science because everything is chemistry.
(50:08):
The people that use Viagra wouldnot have it without chemistry,
Annmarie Hylton (50:13):
wouldn't have, uh, well, I guess we could use it in both ways.
They wouldn't havechemistry together either.
Yes.
So, yeah.
So yes, and, and, and,and having a conference.
And I guess if we use that, uh, weuse the word chemistry, developing
chemistry to show people that um,we are made of the same thing.
(50:38):
Thank you, Dr. Luhrman,for your time and insight.
To learn more about Dr. Luhrmann'sbooks, human Rights and Peace, a Personal
Odyssey and the Malta ConferencesFoundation, go to safara luhrman.com.
You can buy Dr. Luhrmann's bookon Amazon and on her website.
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem, or
(51:02):
want to change minds contact project,good work at Project, good Work.
To start your project of Changetoday, subscribe to our mailing
list at Project Good Work slashsubscribe to get our episodes and
blog articles sent to you each month.
To our listeners, thanks fortuning in to Project Good.
We're focused on what matters.
Hello and welcome to the Project Good podcast.
I'm your host, Annmarie Hilton.
Project Good is a social impact podcast,interviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is to inspireour people and organizations to develop a
mindset that can move others to positiveaction regarding the complex social
(00:23):
issues facing people and the planet.
For October, we're focused on theroad ahead with Dr. Zara Lurman.
It's no secret that as a planet and globalsociety we're facing catastrophic issues.
According to a recent report from theGeneva Academy, there are more than 45
armed conflicts currently taking placethroughout the Middle East and North
(00:45):
Africa, and the following territories,Cyprus, Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Libya,
Morocco, Palestine, Syria, Turkey,Yemen, and the Western Sahara.
There are 35 non-national armedconflicts taking place in Africa.
Asia has 19 non-national armed conflicts.
Europe has seven armed conflicts, andthere are six non-international armed
(01:09):
conflicts taking place in the region.
Split between Mexico and Columbiaand the United States is in a state
of political upheaval and distress.
With so much conflict andopposition, how can people come
back together for the better?
Today I have the pleasure ofinterviewing Dr. Luhrman, who may
(01:29):
hold one of the keys to the answer.
She's a whirlwind known chemist,educator, author Peacebuilder, who has
pioneered the use of science diplomacyto foster dialogue and collaboration
the world's most volatile regions.
As founder and president of the MaltaConferences Foundation, she brings
together scientists from countries inconflict, including Israel, Palestine,
(01:51):
Iran, Iraq, and across the Middle East.
To work side by side on scientificchallenges that transcend borders from
water scarcity to nuclear prolification.
Beyond diplomacy.
Dr. Luhrman has spent decades fighting forhuman rights, advocating for persecuted
scientists in the Soviet Union and China,including risking her own safety by
(02:12):
venturing after midnight through darkalleys in Moscow to meet dissidents.
She's also the author of the memoir,human Rights and Peace, a personal
Odyssey, which shares the dramatictrue story behind her life's work.
Let's get into the interview.
(02:38):
Born in Israel, a regionknown to understand conflict.
Dr. Luhrman developed groundbreakingmethods to teach science
through arts, which has helpedchange the world for good.
Dr. Luhrmann's work has changedlives of underprivileged children,
including homeless, youthand incarcerated individuals.
By making chemistry accessible throughmusic, dance, and visual storytelling.
(03:02):
Her work has been recognized globally,including multiple Noble Police prize
nominations, the US Presidential Awardbeing given to her by Bill Clinton
for mentoring minorities in science.
And the prestigious Andre ZoffAward for Human Rights from
the American Physical Society.
She has also been honored by unesco, theUS State Department, and leading peace
(03:26):
and science organizations worldwide.
In 2025, she was awarded the InternationalAdvocate of Advocate of Peace Award.
Previous awardees include Bill,bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Bishop
Tutu, and Sir Paul McCartney.
Welcome, Dr. Lurman.
Dr Zafra Lerman (03:44):
Thank you very, uh, much Maryanne for
inviting me to join your program.
Annmarie Hylton (03:49):
Yes, I'm very excited, excited about our conversation.
Um, but before we get into the interview,I always like to understand the heart
of who I'm interviewing, and so I wouldlike to know what your childhood was like
and how did it shape you to become a,from a scientist and embrace creativity
and have this deep love for people.
Dr Zafra Lerman (04:12):
My childhood was wonderful because we
were a developing country.
We had nothing.
So as children, we had to bevery creative to even have toys.
We didn't have toys.
Only children that had relatives inAmerica were getting care packages
(04:32):
with toys and clothes were, mm-hmm.
For us, clothes was rationed.
So, but I think it was a wonderfulchildhood because we could
do what we wanted and really.
Uh, develop a lot of,uh, things like toys.
(04:57):
We had to create them.
We had to create group activitiesby ourself from a very young age,
and I think that this is developing.
A very special character, but it's reallydeveloping the creativity new because,
(05:18):
eh, eh, you have to be very creativeto make toys from nothing and teams.
From nothing, and I think it'smuch healthier than what I see.
I have a school next tome and I see the big SUV.
(05:38):
Every SUV is a mother waiting forone child, grabbing them when they
come out of school directly homeso they can drive them to the next
program that they arrange for them.
We, our parents were very busy.
They not arrange programs for us,so we had to hygiene, and I think
(06:03):
it's a very, it, uh, it was a verygood childhood and probably is.
Responsible for all the differentthings I did in my life.
In addition, uh, growing up with a very,with a family of activists, uh, I remember
(06:26):
till now that by the age of six, uh.
I graduated from kindergarten and oneday I went and I saw the kid, a child,
and I came home and I said, I graduated.
I'm not going back.
And my father said, whatdo you mean you are going?
(06:47):
I said, I'm not going back.
So he said, what are you going to do?
I said, you are veryinfluential in the politics.
So you arranged for meto go to first grade.
S and this what happened, I was theyoungest one and I went to first
grade, and I remember that by the ageof six for my birthday, I got up in
(07:10):
the morning and I had in my shoe, eh.
I opened this envelope and there wasa letter from my father, and this
should give you the idea how I grew up.
The letter said, today's your birthday.
I hope you will grow up to be loyal.
(07:30):
To your country, to yournation, and to your family.
Six years old and uh, probablyhere, somebody would get a
teddy bear for the birthday.
But anyhow, it's be loyal to your country,to your nation, and to your family.
And for your birthday, I giveyou this amount of money, but
(07:52):
you have to divide it to three.
One part you have to give to thenational fund to plant trees.
So we are helping thearid land to become great.
One part you have to donate tothe children from the Holocaust
(08:15):
that are orphans and losttheir parents so they can have.
Some things that they need.
In one field, you can do what you want.
When you grow up like that from the ageof six, you grow up very differently,
Annmarie Hylton (08:34):
I would say so.
Wow.
Dr Zafra Lerman (08:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So this was really shaped my life.
Annmarie Hylton (08:42):
So, um, well, I, I guess it was on both ends.
You already were a very,are a strong minded child.
Uh, from my parents'
Dr Zafra Lerman (08:53):
point of view too much.
Yes.
And I'm sure from theteacher's point of view too,
but they were supportive of you.
Yes.
Very much brought it, but,uh, I don't think it was easy.
(09:15):
But, uh, I describe in my book how.
Uh, when, you know, war, were alwaysin the Middle East, so we had to run
to the shelter and usually few familiestogether built a shelter together.
(09:36):
So from the age of three or twoeven, I was the happiest child to
hear the siren to go to the shelter.
Why?
I had only one brother.
10 years older, so we were not childrenthat could play together, but when
we went to the shelter, I suddenlyhad a lot of children to play with.
(10:00):
So I loved when the siren came on.
I was crying when the siren.
Aim again because it hadto go out of the shelter.
And I thought, that is wonderful.
I am like in a playground.
Why do I have to go out of it?
So it's a, it's a very interestingthings that people would think, well,
(10:25):
dramatic for me, it was a pleasure.
And I describe all these, uh,different things in my book.
Even the small power that we didn'thave hot showers, so there was
only one place in the middle of thetown that had hot shower and we.
(10:49):
At very young age, kids alone were gettingall of us together to go to think, shower.
And one day I came home and myfather very proudly told me that
they installed the hot shower.
And I will not have to go tothe central shower anymore.
(11:09):
And I cried for a whole day that myparents just want to spoil my social life.
So they went and installedhot shower in their house.
So I will not be able to takea shower with all my friends.
I thought that it's aterrible thing what they did.
Annmarie Hylton (11:32):
You, you, so you had already a very, um, uh, I guess, um,
different perspective obviously, um,because, um, and, and also because
you were a child, so you weren'tunderstanding probably the dangers.
Um, uh, but that is the beauty ofchildhood and I think that mind
(11:54):
frame must have, um, sat with you.
Um, of course, you know, as you gotolder you understood the complexities
and the danger, but that willingnessto have a different perspective
of things than other people,
Dr Zafra Lerman (12:10):
there's a true, but I have to say that I just came back
from this crazy part of the world.
And thing, both the Palestinian andIsraelis that participate in MAL
conferences, and I had to go to theshelter and I sent a picture of.
(12:39):
Me the shelter to my family'schat and my daughter-in-law
wrote back to me and said, why?
If you are in a shelter, youlook so relaxed and happy.
So I something, it wasspill there from the chat.
She said, what are you happy?
What are you sitting in?
(13:07):
I read it in the shelter and everybodystarted laughing from this comment.
Annmarie Hylton (13:14):
Yes.
Well, that's, um, I, I, that, I guessthat leads to me, to my, my next question.
So I guess as you grew up then, and, um,you were living in this, uh, this region
that was known and is still known, uh,for a high, high conflict and, and, um.
(13:36):
I would say adapting to life ina, a whole different perspective.
And um, and then also, I guess,um, as you, as you're growing
up, I guess, uh, why did you pickscience or did science pick you?
Dr Zafra Lerman (13:50):
I think science picked me.
I think I knew that I'll bea scientist from the age.
Two, eh, I was fascinated by twins.
I had identical twins.
So by the age of two, Iwas bothering my parents.
Where is my identical twin?
And they said, you don't have one.
(14:12):
So I was sitting for hoursin front of the mirror.
And I thought that myidentical twin is there.
I'm seeing her and myparents said, it's you.
I said, if it's me, how am I there?
How, how can it be that I'm there?
And I was it.
Opening the door where the mirrorwas on and I didn't see anything
(14:37):
and I said, how can I be there?
And was asking very complicated question.
Oh, I remember by the age of three,suddenly we got some box and my father
was listening and I held the box to head.
This is the voice of Jerusalem.
(14:59):
I lived in Haifa, so I started saying,voice of Jerusalem, how can I live in
Haifa and here the voice of Jerusalem?
So I was asking these questions froma very, very young age, and then.
Because I was a year youngerthan my class, I was seven.
(15:20):
When I was in third grade.
Our teacher did not come.
So the principal came in and said, youare now following me to eighth grade
where I have to teach an algebra class.
And you will sit on the floor,uh, around and be quiet.
And this is what we had to do with Kay.
(15:41):
We sat on the floor and he wasteaching an algebra class, and he put a
question and he said, who can solve it?
And nobody in the class could solve it.
After three timesasking, I raised my hand.
I said I can solve it.
And he said, you, didanybody teach you algebra?
I said, no, but I knowto solve your problem.
(16:05):
So he said, get up andcome to the black belt.
I came and he gave me thetruck and I solved the problem.
And then he started telling me, in everylanguage in the world how excellent I am.
I sent a letter to my parentswith a sentence from the Bible
that said that I am like a treegrowing along the water and W Wow.
(16:32):
Wow.
So science found me from a very young age.
I did not have any doubtsthat I'll be a scientist.
Annmarie Hylton (16:42):
Okay.
Well then how did you then, because thisis, this is just for most people who are
on the, uh, like in, uh, the scientificfield, um, tend to be, um, always thinking
more on a, I guess, linears perspective.
And you have incorporated art anddance and, you know, most artists
(17:07):
and a lot of, uh, dancers tend to.
I guess, you know, it's kind of likethe right brain versus the left brain.
Um, so, you know, how did you find thatyou, uh, I guess liked dance besides,
of course, maybe going out and partying.
Dr Zafra Lerman (17:24):
Uh,
I did the research and those asked meto explain on isotope effect at Cornell
University, Northwestern University in theUS and Swiss politically in Switzerland.
And then I was very bad with the facthow so many people stay away from
(17:48):
science, and especially the fact.
Of the Underrepresenation in thescientific community of a lot of
groups and because as you mentioned,I worked for years in human
rights and saved a lot of people.
This is why I got hungrysoccer of the world.
(18:11):
I, this is, I always said thatscience education is a human
rights that belong to all and.
The president of Columbia College inChicago that was a visionary, made an
offer in Columbia College, was an openadmission, very high minorities School
(18:36):
of Ham communication, and he offered meto come and start the science and Math
department from scratch to do what I want.
And I knew one thing that my studentscannot be taught the way I was taught
because the people that know froma very young age that they will be
(18:59):
scientists, you know, even was teacherswill not persuade them otherwise.
And I had bad teachers and sothey had PhDs, but so I really.
Debated How will I teach?
(19:19):
And the first class that I taughtwas chemistry in Daily Life.
And I put an equationand I realized a lot of.
Blanketed the eyes and one of my dancestudents got up and said, oh, I know
how to choreograph this as a dance.
(19:42):
I said, really?
How will you choreograph?
So she asked the people to get up andshe assigned chemicals and the dance,
the reaction, and then everybodysay, oh, this is how it works.
Now I understand it.
And then I tried to explain somethingon Chris Holst and one of the Al
(20:04):
student got up and we had a projectingmicroscope that he put a drop of a
solution on the slide and it lookedlike the Japanese flag with a round red
spot in the middle, and then purple.
(20:25):
Feather started coming out becausethe water was evaporating and it
was like somebody's painting amodern painting in front of you.
And I said, oh, it's beautiful.
And all the students wantedto know about crystals.
So I said to myself, I better learnfrom my students how to teach and.
(20:50):
I really learned from mystudents how to teach.
So I always mentioned that the more than40 international awards that I got for
education or I owe it to my students thatwere my teachers showing me how to teach.
(21:10):
And then in order to show that it'sreally science notes, Mickey Mouse.
I persuaded the chair of chemistry atPrinceton University, who was on my
human rights committee that I chaired,and the chair of Indiana University.
And I said, look guys, thisis an Ivy League school.
(21:32):
This is a private aid.
This is one of the big 10 statesschool and Columbia College
is open admission inner city.
Very high minorities.
We are the whole spectrum of anycollege in the in university in the us.
Why don't we develop a classfor non-science majors together?
(21:56):
And they liked the idea and wedeveloped a class title from
ozone to oil spill Chemistry.
The Environment New and the NationalScience Foundation funded us and they,
we, the three of us worked together andthey adopted my methods of teaching.
(22:19):
So they student could, we were assessingthe students, not by multiple choice, but.
Any way they want to show theirknowledge, they could dance it, they
could act it, they could sing it,they could do everything they want.
And the National Science Foundationcalled it the Flagship project,
(22:42):
and it became very famous and itwas adopted in a lot of university.
Colleges and I was invited to lecturepractically all over the world.
We even adopted a school districtof Soweto in South Africa because I
received the first international awardin the new Democratic South Africa.
(23:07):
In science education.
So it, it gave me the opportunityto visit, uh, schools in South
Africa and adapt them and teachtheir teachers to teach in this way.
And then this National ScienceFoundation gave me a lot of money.
(23:29):
To teach the teachers of the ChicagoPublic School how to teach this way,
and it became a very, very big, thepresident of Columbia College asked me
after that, after I shared for 10 yearsthe science and math department to open a
(23:49):
science institute with a graduate school.
School that will allow people to learnhow to teach and become science teachers.
And it became very famous.
So there, but it started for medeciding that also I love research, but
I have to do something with the factof the underrepresenation of a lot of
(24:13):
groups in the scientific community.
Annmarie Hylton (24:18):
Yes.
And that that kind of, um.
Goes off of today's like, uh, uh, I guesspush for, um, stem, I guess, um, um, just
a, as a a side opinion, I guess, whatdo you feel, um, about, uh, I guess, uh,
today's approach, uh, I guess specificallyin the US uh, on the push of stem, do, do
(24:40):
you feel that, um, I guess that it's beingdone correctly or that it needs to be.
Um, thought of a little bit differently.
Dr Zafra Lerman (24:50):
The problem in education is not the students.
It's, I said I wasinterviewed on, what was it?
A, B, C. There was a program, someoneyou should know in Chicago, and I was
interviewed there and I said, if youwill bring the best teachers to the inner
(25:12):
city in Chicago, you will get the beststudents in the inner city in Chicago.
If you bring the best students to then.
Northern suburbs, no.
Very advanced teacher.
And you put the worst teachers there.
What do you expect?
So I feel that the, it's the qualityof the teaching that because, uh.
(25:40):
I got the Science Institutethat I was the head.
We got a lot of money to buildSTEM academies in the inner city
of Chicago in school that wereinfested with drugs and, uh.
And again, and nobody wanted to go tothese schools if they wanted to study.
(26:03):
And we build these academies andit became so famous that students
wanted to go there because graduationpercent is in Chicago, public school
is very low, but for my academy itwas 98% and 98% went to college.
So.
But you know, when the superintendentof the school changed and felt that
(26:32):
science is not the most important, Ialways said he probably flanked science,
so therefore it, but it's not important.
Therefore I will not say who he was.
But, uh, but all that disappeared and,uh, this is the problem with education.
(26:54):
That all the time.
The talks that is really politics, whenit changes, good things that are proven,
that are working, are disappearing.
And this is the problem with education.
Annmarie Hylton (27:10):
Yes.
And I would say that, um, uh, if Iwas going to, um, uh, do a comparison.
That, um, uh, sadly that, uh,teaching, um, was your first war zone.
Dr Zafra Lerman (27:27):
It was, oh God was, that was, uh, you cannot believe when I, the
first time came, uh, to give a lecturein a scientific, uh, conference before
I involved Princeton in Indiana, thatI was almost attacked by the scientist.
How dare I could teach science like that.
(27:50):
And when we had the programtogether, my class flew.
Every year to Princeton for a jointsymposium for all my students.
It was the first timeeven going on a plane.
So all the media came tocover always our joint meet.
And they called it themeeting of two cultures
(28:13):
because it was like two cultures.
Annmarie Hylton (28:16):
And that's what I was, uh, thinking too, because you were working
with the inner city and especially.
Um, I know things obviouslyhave, uh, changed to some aspect.
It's a, a little bit different, but,um, especially, uh, I would say in the
seventies and the eighties and, um,when, uh, um, you know, integration
(28:37):
was just, uh, um, starting, um,specifically in the u uh, in the us.
Um.
Uh, it, it was definitely a, uh, youversus, um, uh, them, um, culture and, uh,
education as we know, uh, was, um, the.
(28:59):
I guess the, the initial place wherewe could see the, the youth being
introduced into the society, like,um, you know, of the, like separate
and equal, um, was discussed.
So, um, what a, I guess a trainingground then to go into the political
realm and I guess, um, I guessnot to be funny, but in a way.
(29:24):
But you're dealing with olderchildren that still don't wanna share
and, and have these conflicts, butunfortunately they have weapons.
Dr Zafra Lerman (29:34):
Yeah.
But, uh, I just want tomention that in my book.
So it's total human rights in peace.
There is a huge chapter on myway of teaching with examples.
Or how the theater students dealtwith it, how the dance students,
(29:57):
how the music students, theyare all examples with pictures.
So for people that would like to teach,we worked with the parents too because
we felt that it's important for the.
Parents to be able to help their children.
So it's all that described in avery long chapter in this book too.
(30:22):
And it showed how, and I always usedto tell my students, what you learn in
my class is really critical thinking.
And they loved how I pronounced it.
So they were making fun of me all thetime, imitating my accent and saying.
Critical thinking is important and,but I have very successful students
(30:46):
in Hollywood in a lot of places.
I was invited to the Emmy Award when oneof my students got, and he said that they
all say that their success is the criticalthinking that they learned in my classes
and the projects in their major that.
(31:08):
Well, communicating science,this would help them to be so
successful in their own fields.
Annmarie Hylton (31:18):
Yes.
No.
Um, you know, I was, as you were,um, talking and telling your, your
stories, I was seeing how then, um,how you took, um, the learnings from
the classroom and then put it ontothe political stage because, you know,
it, it's all dealing with people.
(31:41):
And so what then made you in your life?
Um, or what, uh, I guess, uh,was it a, um, did you have a,
like an epiphany day, a personallike, um, um, move in your heart?
What made you turn to, uh,like the political, um.
(32:01):
Uh, parts of life or what, whatmade you, uh, made you start,
uh, fighting for human rights?
I know that you, you grew up in a familythat was like that, but uh, as an adult.
What made you actually do that?
Uh, take that route.
Dr Zafra Lerman (32:17):
Scientists were targeted in a lot of countries and
especially in the Soviet Union andthen in China after Kamen Square, and
a lot of them were the human rights.
Was abused and the American ChemicalSociety uh, nominated me to be
(32:42):
the chair of the Committee onScientific Freedom and Human Rights.
And I chair this committee for 26 years,usually a chair committee for three years.
I don't think there were manyvolunteers to take it over because
I did not just charity in the us.
(33:03):
I really traveled to the SovietUnion, traveled to China after
German Square because I always feltthat everybody should help people.
Trouble.
And uh, I always used to tell mystudents too, you must make sure
(33:28):
that you came to make this planeta better place before you leave it.
So, and I used to tell my students,uh, before you go to sleep
every day, think about somethinggood you did for somebody else.
Not for yourself.
And if you come up with the factthat you did, you had a good day.
(33:51):
This is a good day.
So this is, I always lived by thisprinciple and when a lot of scientists in
the Soviet Union will send to labor campand fired from their, uh, jobs, asked for.
Wanting to immigrate, uh, all that.
I felt that it's my committee'sresponsibility to help, and this
(34:16):
is why I went to the Soviet Union.
I took a crash course in Russian.
Uh, so I will not need a KGB translator.
Mm-hmm.
So I was going always after midnight inDark Ali meeting with, uh, dissidents.
And then, uh, we would gettogether in dark ethics at.
(34:41):
Two o'clock in the morning, and thisis where I distributed scientific
material, what was illegal subjectunion among the scientist to have
access to any scientific material.
And, uh, I, uh, gavea seminar was illegal.
I collected all these TVs, not onlyfor the people that were there,
(35:05):
but people that were in hard laborin Siberia or were in prison.
So we can, I can bring it allback to the US and walk on behalf.
To release them from, uh, thehard labor and the prison.
And even the ones that were not inprison, they were fired from the
(35:29):
work, but then they were blamedfor being parasites in the nation.
So these people needed the help and, uh.
I did a lot for them.
There are a lot of people that arefree and say thank you to me, so
this is, you have a good in there.
(35:51):
As I said, and in my book there is alot of, uh uh, there is a big chapter
about that, all the risks and dangersthat it took, but there are some funny.
Uh, stories about the, that happened withthe people when they were released, so.
(36:12):
It's in my book.
People should read the book.
Yes, definitely.
See how they, it's a book thatcalls, it's a memoir, it has
in that romance and all that.
I did not neglect that part of my life.
Annmarie Hylton (36:29):
I was gonna, I was gonna ask, um, uh, not about
the romance necessarily, but,but I guess as a, as a woman.
A woman, and, and you know.
When we look back, you know, and stillwomen as we see in society are having,
uh, you know, difficulties and conflict.
(36:49):
Did you ever, did that ever slow you downor did you just, or you were just like.
You didn't, I, I've gotta do my thing.
Dr Zafra Lerman (36:56):
You didn't slow me down, but I thought it was very funny.
But I was used to be, becausein high school I was already
the only girl in my class.
'cause we had to pass very hard test.
It was a high school specialfor math and science.
So I learned.
To be the only woman with faulty,only girl with faulty boys, and being
(37:21):
probably the biggest troublemaker.
So when the teacher would kick meout, all the boys would scream.
You kicked out all thegirls from the class.
So I was used.
Yes.
But there were funnythings, uh, in a conference.
I was sitting and waiting in thecorridor for somebody and I had the
(37:42):
badge and three men walked by andthey said, uh, are you a chemist?
And I said, yes.
And they said, you don't look like one.
I said, thank you.
I take it as a compliment and, uh.
I remember my husband, who passed awaynot long ago, used to accompany me.
(38:03):
He was an economist to a lot ofconferences, and the chemist and all these
conferences would explain to him about theresearch and he said, I don't understand.
What did you talk to me?
She's the chemist, notI, but it didn't matter.
They continued to talk to him, not to me,and we were laughing because he did not.
(38:26):
Than one word what they're talking.
So, but we took everything as a, asfunny that you can do a comedy outta it.
So yes, for sure.
I, I grew up since my high school dayswhere I was the only girl in my class.
(38:46):
My mother used to, to make fun ofme that every teenager girl has
her best girlfriends and I havemy best girlfriends, some boys.
Annmarie Hylton (38:58):
Well, I guess in if, uh, in some ways, uh, it made you,
uh, really be able to understand men.
Oh, no
Dr Zafra Lerman (39:05):
doubts.
Sometimes I think I know to get alongwith them better than women because I
never had to interact very much and theonly time I interacted and got the shock
of my life is when I was drafted tothe military and suddenly found myself.
In a barrack with 50 girls, and thiswas the shock of my life when they
(39:32):
were talking subject that I and myboys in my class never discussed.
This was a big shock.
Annmarie Hylton (39:44):
Yes.
Yeah, in some ways probablywere like, what a nightmare.
It,
it was, yes.
I a, that's just a personal side, butI just, you know, um, many years ago
I went on a girls trip with 10 womenand I was like, what a nightmare.
Dr Zafra Lerman (40:04):
It, you know, when you are not used to that,
it's a very different world.
It's a very different world.
It is, but uh, I grew up overthat since the age of 13.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then you had a brotherinstead of a sister.
I never had a sister.
(40:25):
I never had a daughter,only boys in my family.
So it's, yes, I think sometimes,oh, it's nice maybe to surround, be
surrounded only by women, but I neverhad this experience and, uh, I'm
(40:45):
still looking for this experience.
Annmarie Hylton (40:50):
Yes, it is.
It's hard to find good girlfriends.
Dr Zafra Lerman (40:52):
Yeah.
So this is, uh, we are comingto, uh, you want to ask
something about the Middle East?
Annmarie Hylton (41:03):
Yes.
Yes.
About the conference?
Yes, I was actually, thatwas my next question.
And so, um, what, uh, I guess we'llstart from the beginning, I guess.
Um, what led you to developthe Malta conference?
Um, and, um, I guess, uh, why, why Malta?
Uh, I know it's great, but, um,but, um, in, in, in developing
(41:28):
that conference, was that, um, Iknow you had, uh, you had some, uh,
collaborations and of course, um, otherscientists were, uh, jumped on board.
Um, but I guess whatled you to develop it,
Dr Zafra Lerman (41:40):
uh, when September 11 happened in the us?
I came to my committee and said Our titleis Scientific Freedom in Human Rights,
and as scientist, we have the obligationnow to concentrate on the Middle East too.
(42:04):
I said, scientists have aresponsibility that other people
don't have because science is asubject that can cut life short.
But can extend life.
No weapon of math destruction canbe developed without scientists.
Therefore, scientistshave the responsibility.
(42:28):
To use their science for peace.
Now, if science is the very internationallanguage, a scientist from a chemist from
Pennsylvania and a chemist from Belemin the West Bank can communicate their
research very well with no language.
Just with a chemical notation.
(42:50):
So science doesn't see a language, doesn'tsee religion, doesn't see culture there.
It's the same science all over.
And therefore I thought that if we havea conference when we bring together
scientists from all the Middle East.
(43:15):
Really all the countries in the MiddleEast, with no exception, well sure.
The Israelis and the Palestinian, butso is the, the Iraqis and the Syrian and
the, the, the Jordanian and the Egyptian,the, all the countries in the Middle East.
For five days, no accompanyingmembers, not to dilute our
(43:39):
solution, our interaction.
Every chemist knows that if you add waterto a solution, you dilute the reaction.
So no accompanying memberwith several Laureate.
With everybody being in the samehotel, eating all the meals together,
(43:59):
participating in all the workshop,interactive workshop together and the
social events together, that an asimportant as the scientific part and
giving them a platform to see what unitesthem instead of what separates them.
(44:19):
To give them a platform to stopdemonizing the unknown other, and
to give them a platform to developcollaborations and friendships
and friendships that can overcomethe chasms of distrust and
(44:42):
intolerance, and it warped.
The first time we had the first conferencein the, on the island of Malta, 2003.
Why Malta?
Because it's an island, and in my mind, anisland is safer than a mainland because.
(45:06):
It is group of people whoknows who would like to attack.
So I thought an island will be safer.
It was in the midst of identifi.
Identifi is the uprising of the, uh,Palestinian with a lot of, uh, IC bombs
that were in all the restaurants inIsrael and the buses and all that, and.
(45:33):
We needed security fora conference like that.
So I thought Malta will be mm-hmm.
A, a good place because it's an island.
Mm-hmm.
And eh, we had the firstconference in 2003 and I thought,
I'm organizing one conference.
(45:55):
And it was unbelievable because atthe end conference of the conference,
it looks more like a family reunionsaying goodbyes with tears in the eyes
than a meeting with scientists fromcountries that are hostile to each other.
But what I didn't take into accountthat they will vote to have another one.
(46:19):
And another one, and another one,and it's going on since 2003.
It's got the name, the Malta Francis,because the first one was in Malta,
the first and the second was in Malta.
The third was Istan.
Turkey.
The first was in Amman, Jordan, the fifth.
(46:43):
We were invited to UNESCO in Paristo their headquarter because it was
the international year of chemistrydeclared by the un, and they wanted
the multis, one of the last events,like the finale of the of chemistry.
Then for multi six, we went back.
To Malta, Malta seven.
(47:05):
We went to AK Morocco, Malta, 8, 9, 10.
We went to Mal game and nowMalta 11 is going to Bajan.
So, and there are a lot of verypositive collaboration on water, on
(47:28):
education, on energy, and uh, allthat I'm going back is describing my
book that just came out in paperback.
'cause they sold it veryexpensive with this hardcover.
Yes, so now it's in paperback, veryreasonably, and I recommend for people
(47:53):
to read it because it starts with mychildhood and has education in that,
and the fight for human rights andthe fight for peace, and it can show
everybody that they can do somethingto make the planet a better place.
You can see what one woman.
(48:14):
The king to the US as a single mothercan do to make the planet a better
place so everybody can join me.
He suggest they read the book and join mein the effort to make the planet a place.
Annmarie Hylton (48:34):
Yes, you've had a outstanding, uh, outstanding life.
Um, I, I love that.
Um, uh, I didn't think about it, butwhen I was thinking back to my own,
uh, chemistry and science, uh, classes,um, of how much that science, and
especially chemistry, it's a language.
(48:55):
You know, you have the formulas and havingthat language, being able to be trans,
uh, translated across borders, right?
And, um, and that, um, unitingpeople and, you know, uh, I guess
to be even on an esoteric level.
Um, everything around us on this planetis, is made out of some kind of chemistry.
(49:20):
Everything is chemistry.
Dr Zafra Lerman (49:22):
The medication, everybody takes.
This chemistry, the antibioticsthat saves a lot of life wouldn't
be here before without chemistry.
The clothes you wear.
Breathes chemistry.
Uh, the cows you drivehave a lot of chemistry.
The batteries on chemistry thatallowed us all the communication.
(49:46):
There is nothing that youwill take into your hand.
Even this bottle, thisplastic is chemistry.
There is nothing that you cantouch that is not chemistry.
Therefore, we saychemistry is the central.
Science because everything is chemistry.
(50:08):
The people that use Viagra wouldnot have it without chemistry,
Annmarie Hylton (50:13):
wouldn't have, uh, well, I guess we could use it in both ways.
They wouldn't havechemistry together either.
Yes.
So, yeah.
So yes, and, and, and,and having a conference.
And I guess if we use that, uh, weuse the word chemistry, developing
chemistry to show people that um,we are made of the same thing.
(50:38):
Thank you, Dr. Luhrman,for your time and insight.
To learn more about Dr. Luhrmann'sbooks, human Rights and Peace, a Personal
Odyssey and the Malta ConferencesFoundation, go to safara luhrman.com.
You can buy Dr. Luhrmann's bookon Amazon and on her website.
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem, or
(51:02):
want to change minds contact project,good work at Project, good Work.
To start your project of Changetoday, subscribe to our mailing
list at Project Good Work slashsubscribe to get our episodes and
blog articles sent to you each month.
To our listeners, thanks fortuning in to Project Good.
We're focused on what matters.
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