Raising Autistic Kids

In this episode of the Project Good podcast, host Anne Marie Hilton discusses raising autistic children and the Neurodiversity Movement with Stephanie Fluger, co-founder of the Connection Therapy Clinic. The podcast explores topics such as the evolving understanding of autism, the importance of early intervention, and the role of various therapies in supporting autistic children. Hilton and Fluger emphasize acceptance, inclusion, and the importance of community support. Fluger shares her personal experiences raising her autistic son and offers advice for parents navigating a new autism diagnosis. The episode also touches on the impact of technology and the concept of autistic burnout. Fluger provides insights into overcoming the challenges and fostering a nurturing environment for neurodiverse families.

00:00 Introduction to Project Good Podcast 00:26 Understanding Neurodiversity and Autism 01:25 Interview with Stephanie Fluger: Personal Experiences 02:57 Autism Statistics and Early Diagnosis 04:31 Challenges and Misconceptions in Autism 06:42 The Importance of Early Intervention 24:29 Autism Spectrum and Support Needs 36:19 Community Support and Advocacy 44:45 Generational Parenting Differences 46:38 The Importance of Play-Based Therapy 50:27 Challenges of Modern Parenting 54:27 Technology's Role in Autism 01:00:47 Understanding Autistic Burnout 01:06:28 Therapies for Autism 01:15:04 Advice for New Autism Parents 01:18:05 Conclusion and Resources

 

Stephanie Fluger - co-founder of the Connection Therapy Clinic.

She helps give parents and people a perspective of what it’s really like to raise a neurodivergent child, and the struggles that come with it and what can be real solutions.

Stephanie, a distinguished expert in neurodivergent parent support, stands as a community change maker, driving inclusivity and promoting autism acceptance.

As a devoted mother to both a neurodivergent child and a neurotypical youngster, Stephanie's personal experiences have fueled her commitment to enhancing the lives of neurodiverse families.

In pursuit of her vision, Stephanie founded the Connection Therapy Clinic, a pediatric speech and occupational therapy that specializes in neurodiverse-affirming practices. Committed to child-led, play-based therapy, the clinic's mission resonates with a powerful message: "We want this place to be like your comfort food—nurturing, empowering, and all-around awesome."

The clinic's tagline, "Empowering families, supporting the community," reflects Stephanie's dedication to extending the positive impact beyond individual families to the broader community. With a focus on evidence-based practices, the clinic ensures that every therapeutic intervention aligns with the latest advancements in the field.

Episode Transcript

Annmarie Hylton (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Project Good podcast.
I'm your host, Anne Marie Hilton.
Project Good is a social impact podcast,interviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is toinspire our people and organizations
to develop a mindset that canmove others to positive action.

(00:21):
Regarding the complex social issuesfacing people and the planet.
For July, we're focusing onraising autistic children.
The Neurodiversity Movement is a socialand cultural movement that emerged in
the late 1990s and early two thousands,challenging the traditional views of
neurological differences like autism,A DHD, dyslexia, and others as purely

(00:46):
medical or pathological conditions.
The diversity movement advocatesbegan promoting autism as a form
of neurological diversity ratherthan indeed disease to be cur.
This movement emphasizes acceptance,inclusion, and accommodations.
Today, autism is understood as a spectrumof neurodevelopmental conditions with

(01:08):
a range of traits and severities.
Research continues into genetic andenvironmental and neurological factors.
There's an increasing recognitionof autism in girls, adults, and
people of color groups historicallyunderdiagnosed or misdiagnosed.
Today I have the pleasure of interviewingStephanie Pfluger, co-founder of

(01:29):
the Connection Therapy Clinic.
She helps gives parents and peoplea perspective of what it's really
like to raise a neuro divergent childand the struggles that come with
it, and what real solutions can be.
Stephanie, a distinguishedexpert in NeuroD diversion.
Parent support stands as a communitychange maker driving inclusivity
and promoting autism acceptance.

(01:51):
As a devoted mother of both neurodivergentchild and neurotypical youngster,
Stephanie's personal experienceshave healed her commitment to
enhancing the lives of Neurodiversefamilies in pursuit of her vision.
Stephanie founded the ConnectionTherapy Clinic, a pediatric speech
and occupational therapy thatspecialize in this neurodiverse
affirming practices committed toC child led play-based therapy.

(02:15):
The clinic's mission resonateswith a powerful message.
We want this place to belike your comfort food.
Nurturing, empowering,and all around awesome.
The clinic's tagline, empowering familiessupporting the community reflects
Stephanie's dedication to extendingthe positive impact beyond individual
families to the broader community.

(02:36):
With a focus on evidence-basedpractices, the clinic ensures that every
therapeutic intervention aligns withthe latest advancements in the field.
Let's get into the interview.

(02:57):
In 2025, the latest data from theCenter for the Disease Control and
Prevention or the CDC indicates thatautism spectrum disorder affects
one in 31 children in the us.
This represents a significant increasefrom the previous estimate of one in 36.
The C D'S Autism and DevelopmentalDisabilities Monitoring Network

(03:19):
tracks these diagnoses throughand among children age four and
eight, across 16 sites nationwide.
Autism is often associated with attentiondeficit hyperactivity disorder or A DHD.
Autism is significantly moreprevalent in boys than it is girls.
With boys being diagnosed3.4 times more often.

(03:41):
The average age of autismdiagnosis is around four years old.
Autism prevalence varies acrossracial and ethnic groups.
With Asian Pacific Islander childrenhaving most of the highest rates, the
American Academic of Pediatrics, um,recommends autism screenings at 18 and 24
months to facilitate early intervention.

(04:03):
Epi epilepsy, anxiety and socialdisorders are common co-occurring
conditions in autistic children.
Welcome, Stephanie.

Stephanie Fluger (04:12):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm very excited to be here and talkabout autism and how it affects families.
It affects parents and bring light into.
How to support the entire familyand advocate for the community.

Annmarie Hylton (04:31):
Yes.
I'm, I'm, I, you know, I'm excited totalk to you because I think this is a
conversation or something that a lotof people don't want to talk about or,
or a confront, but it is something thathas become, um, you know, a hot topic
within our society, um, as our society,um, gets, I guess more comfortable with,

(04:51):
um, uh, I'll just call it, uh, dealingwith quote unquote the real things.

Stephanie Fluger (04:57):
Yeah.
It's, but it's almost, it's this, um,it's comfortable but uncomfortable
because there's this conversation ofwith miscommunication or misinformation
and it's, it's almost this fear to speakout to correct the misinformation and.

(05:17):
It's, it's almost a littleterrifying out there for families
that do have autistic children,that have neurodivergent children.
Um, because it's all it.
I don't want to be redundant, but it's,it's a terrifying world right now.
It,

Annmarie Hylton (05:32):
with everything going on, it's, it is that, that is, uh, you
know, unless you're, uh, one of thesepeople who are asleep, um, you see
what's, uh, you see what is, is happening.
And, um, the, you know, and I, I guessit depends too, I guess if you are, um,
you know, a generation you're comingfrom, but it is, you know, if you're

(05:54):
coming from like before we had all thistechnology and, um, right, you know,
craziness, it is now, um, you know,things are moving at such a crazy speed.
Um, there's no time to, uh, youknow, take a, a breath really.
Um, people are just makingdecisions that are not based on
anything, just how they feel.

(06:15):
Um, and, uh, yeah.
And it affects millions andmillions, if not billions of people.
Um, so yes, it is a, it is a crazy time.
One of the things though, before weget into the interview questions, and
I always ask all my guests, um, just tokind of understand where they're coming
from, their heart and, uh, you know, whythey do what they do, I always give them

(06:39):
a kind of a, a, an opening question.
And so since you've been in thisexperience, what has autism taught you?

Stephanie Fluger (06:48):
I mean, autism has taught me so many things.
That's, that is a, that questioncould be an entire series of podcasts,
so that's a very loaded question.
Um, but Po Autism has taught me myentire life from, the first answer would

(07:08):
be it's taught me how to be a mother.
It's taught me patience, um, taughtme how to raise my son, uh, I
before I. Knew about autism, and Iknew, uh, that my son was autistic.
I always thought I would be thatPinterest mom who would be, you know,

(07:29):
decorating cookies and decorating myhouse with every single little tchotchke
and holiday and every little thingwe would be going to, every single
holiday service or whatever it was.
Um, but once my son was diagnosed withautism, I realized that that really

(07:49):
wasn't an opportunity or a, um, anexperience that we could do because it
wasn't something within his bandwidth.
So it taught me patience and it taughtme to accept my kids for exactly
who they were at their capacity.
Um, so it taught me how to be a better momand how to show up for what they needed.

(08:13):
It taught me how to accept myself becauseI realized, and we can get into this.
Talking about how girlsare, um, undiagnosed.
I'm fairly certain thatI'm as well autistic.
Um, so it taught me how girls arehigh masking autism taught me how

(08:34):
to connect with other people better.
Autism brought me into this entirecommunity, and autism taught
me my career and my passion.
Wow.
Okay.

Annmarie Hylton (08:45):
You were right.
It did teach you.
It taught you, it, it taught you tolook at life differently, I would say.
And very much.
And, um, and yeah, and I think one ofthe, the important lessons too, that you
underlie, and I think this is just forall parents across the board, is that to
learn to accept your kids for who theyare and at the capacity that, that they

(09:06):
can, um, handle or, uh, you know, present.
I think that is the hardest lesson forevery parent to learn, um, is because,
um, at least you know, as a parent, um.
Myself, you know, I justhave a toddler, so, you know.
Mm-hmm.
The, so, you know, still, stilldeveloping, so I don't, you know mm-hmm.

(09:28):
Really notice it's hard.
Yeah.
She's just a, you know, shejust got out of like the potty
training era and, you know mm-hmm.
And all that.
I feel like that's the hardest Yes, it is.
That is the hardest.
Um, so, you know, um, so there's, there'smuch more, of course, uh, for her own
personal and personality development thatis still yet to be, you know, determined.

(09:51):
Um, but, you know, the, theother thing is like, um.
It's hard when you are the parent andyou think about, I guess, you know
what, like you said, what you envisionof what you were going to be as a
parent, what your role was going tobe, and how of course this child was
going to interact with these thingsthat you said you were gonna do there.

(10:12):
You know, essentially everybodyalways wants the, uh, as
close to perfect as can be.
Right?
Right.
Yeah, 100%.
Yes, exactly.
Um, and so, um, you know, uh, when,uh, reality hits, uh, differently, it
becomes, um, you know, um, uh, hard anddisheartening at the, at the same time.

(10:35):
Um, and it puts you, I would say,off bar, off balance as a parent.

Stephanie Fluger (10:41):
Yeah.
100%. And I wanna touch on somethingthat, that you kind of bring up a
little bit and it's, it's a hot topic.
That's in the autism community.
And for anybody that's listening andthat is an autism parent, there's,
there's a little bit of conversationabout grief when your child is

(11:03):
diagnosed as autistic and the griefof quote unquote losing your child.
And there is a lot of negative ornegativity that you cannot feel that way.
And I feel as though thereis, there's a. There's a poor

(11:26):
perspective on what that grief is.
It's not a grief that you've quotelost your child because no one is sad
that like, or no one is like, I've lostmy child or doesn't love their child.
It is exactly what youhad just said, Emery.
It's the, it's the loss of the perspectiveof shift that you had this vision, it's

(11:47):
no different than like when you haveyour child and you think your child is
going to be a doctor, you think yourchild is going to be a lawyer, and you
have this vision of your life and thenyour child decides to be an architect.
It's just a shift and it's a differentperspective and I think that one of the

(12:08):
things that I am very passionate aboutis honoring parents and honoring the
journey that parents have to take and.
When you don't honor the parent'sjourney and you don't honor the grief
and the emotional journey that parentshave to take as, as their child goes

(12:28):
through therapy and the challenge thatthe parents have to take and the journey
that the parents have to take, then itonly is detrimental to the entire family.
So for the parents that are listening,that are going through those
first steps of a diagnosis of, um.
Of therapy.
It's okay to have those moments of grief,to have those moments of sadness and to

(12:53):
know that you are doing the best that youpossibly can and to keep pushing through
and to know that you absolutely loveyour child and your child knows that.

Annmarie Hylton (13:03):
Yes.
And I, I, I like that you, youtalk about letting people grieve.
I think that's something that is justnot allowed in this society for anything.

Stephanie Fluger (13:14):
Mm-hmm.

Annmarie Hylton (13:14):
Um, and, and or, or if you are grieving, then
you're seen as weak or something.
Right, right.
Um, and, and I, you know, and it'simportant, I think, and, and the
other thing is that I like that yousaid to respect that, um, ability
or that need for parents to grieve.
Um, a lot of people wanna be like,well, you know, like, uh, move on.

(13:37):
This is just, you know,this is what you should do.
And, you know, people startthrowing things at you.
Like this is next.
This is next.
And why?
And it's like, well, you know,this, this is a, we are humans.
Right?
Right.
We, we, we, we forgetabout that and Exactly.
And, and, and grieving and um, youknow, um, being disappointed is okay.

(14:03):
Um, exactly.
And a, and a and a lot of peopledon't see that, that that's okay.
It, you know.
Right.
Um, it is okay.
It is okay.
Exactly.
Feel the disappointment.
And the other thing I'd like to sayis to feel it as long as you need to.

Stephanie Fluger (14:17):
Right.
Exactly.
And it doesn't mean thatyou don't love your child.
Obviously you love your child withyour whole life, with everything
that you have, but it doesn't mean.
That you're not disappointed.
Like, again, I always go back to it.
It's not like say you are a doctorand you always wished your child
would take over your practice.

(14:37):
It's no different than if yourchild decided they wanted to be
an architect instead of a doctor.
No different at all.
It's just a different perspective.
It's a different shift, but you'reabsolutely allowed to grieve and
be disappointed and just shift andgrieve that for as long as you want.
It's okay.

Annmarie Hylton (14:57):
Yes, yes.
Um, so I guess, you know, when I'm,I'm thinking about just talking about,
um, um, autism and, uh, you know, uh,neurodiverse conditions because one of
the things with AU autism is that therecan be, you know, co-occurring, um, uh,
different, um, you know, types of, uh,neurodiversity conditions happening.

(15:20):
Yeah.
And so absolutely.
I guess, um.
I guess first, I guess to set upeverything, um, for people to understand
autism, because one of the things is tobe, I don't know, maybe I had heard about
autism, um, uh, you know, earlier in life.
It wasn't something that I, you know,like I, I knew about it in general,

(15:41):
but I didn't really understand ituntil, you know, it started affecting
my life, uh, uh, like, uh, personally.
Right.
And so, um, what would you say, I guess,what's the first thing of telling what,
what is autism and how is it diagnosed?
I guess we should talk about that first.

Stephanie Fluger (16:00):
Yeah, I guess so.
That is.
So autism is diagnosed eitherthrough a psychologist, a
pediatric developmentalist.
Um, it is not diagnosed from apediatrician, it's not diagnosed from
a speech therapist, it's not diagnosedfrom an occupational therapist.
Um, you have to go to someone whohas that specific experience with

(16:25):
the, with those appropriate tests.
With that said, I will say mypersonal experience with my son
getting diagnosed with autism wasthe worst experience of my life.
Conversation for another time.
He was 18 months old when he wasdiagnosed, and I feel like it was a waste

(16:45):
of time, and I was like, are you sure?
Because I don't understandhow the test was accurate.
Anyways, fast forward, he's eightyears old and I'm like, yes,
he clearly was autistic, so Ireally can't fight the diagnosis.
Um, anyways, sorry, trying to goback to my train of thought there.
So, autism and diagnosis, it is, it's avery big topic on how it is diagnosed.

(17:10):
Um, but anyways, through a psychologistor a pediatric developmentalist, normally
you are referred from your pediatricianor you'll start seeing a speech
therapist if there is a speech delay.
And then the speech therapistwill suggest that you go to see

(17:34):
a one of those specialists to getthat referral and that diagnosis.

Annmarie Hylton (17:40):
Yes.
And the other thing is, um, for, uh,you know, um, people who think that this
may be affecting them or their children,I guess mostly, uh, the children.
Um, I guess how important isearly diagnosis in making a
difference in their lives?

Stephanie Fluger (17:58):
So when it comes to the diagnosis, because I know that is
kind of the trigger right now, especiallywith go what's going on in the world,
and I guess the quote unquote list,because I know that's terrifying coming
from my own personal, I guess historicaltrauma of group lists, if you will.

(18:18):
Um, backstory, I'm Jewish, soJewish and group lists and things
like that make me very nervous.
So creating a autism list or a groupof lists that of autistic individuals
make thing make me very nervous, but.
I know the autism communityis very nervous about this
national autistic registry.

(18:41):
So when it comes to actually havingan autistic diagnosis, that is not
as important as getting the services.
You do not need to have an autisticdiagnosis to receive occupational
therapy, to receive speechtherapy, to receive a BA therapy.
You can go receive those servicesthrough your insurance if you have a

(19:03):
PPO, um, or out of pocket insurance.
If you have an HMO, most of thetime you will need to have some
type of referral, most likely.
Um, an autism diagnosis does help,but you don't always have to have it.
So those early interventions are stillaccessible without the diagnosis.

Annmarie Hylton (19:25):
Yes.
And then, um, and then from the, youknow, um, I guess from a, a child's
perspective, um, have you seen that sinceyou did get your son, um, diagnosed and
the other children that you work with,um, through your, uh, business, um,
uh, have you seen that, uh, uh, thatthey make a, a larger, I guess, larger

(19:47):
leaps if it is determined earlier?
Um, I don't know.
Has, have you seen that?

Stephanie Fluger (19:53):
I mean, without a doubt.
I mean, 100%.
I'll, let me tell you a story.
So my son, we have been in therapysince he was 16 months old.
He, we started, we started therapywhen he, like I said, when he was 16
months old, we started physical therapy.

(20:13):
He put me on bedrest because Iwas pregnant with my daughter
and he was still not walking.
He was crawling.
Um.
And we flunked out of physical therapy.
Didn't know you could flunk outta physicaltherapy when you're 16 months old.
I thought that was like a, everybodywas a winner kind of a thing.

(20:35):
And it was just play.
That's what everybody told me.
When, um, I was terrified that myfirst baby boy was going to therapy.
Um, but he would not engage.
He would not play.
Um, he just sat there and cried andthe physical therapist said, well,
maybe it's not the right place for you.
And she like, parent shamed me.

(20:55):
And I would drive home everysingle day crying in my car.
Um, fast forward two more monthsand my pediatrician said, well, he's
still not talking to, so now I'mgonna refer you for speech therapy.
So we waited because there'salways a long wait list.
And we finally got in with speech therapyand we started going to speech therapy.

(21:18):
Then my speech therapist, who isamazing, um, realized that my son
kept hiding in a corner and she said,you know, I need some more help.
He seems to have sensory challengesand I need some occupational help.
And I'm like, I have no idea.
What occupation does a child have?
He's a child, he's 18months old, he doesn't work.

(21:41):
Um, she's like, no,it's, it's occupational.
Like they help with fine motor,gross motor sensory challenges.
And I think he is over.
I'm like, I have like, what's go?
I was so overwhelmed.
I had no idea.
At this point, I'm likesix, seven months pregnant.
I'm like, sure, whatever at this point.
Um, so now my son isin speech therapy, ot.

(22:04):
Um.
And now everyone's starting to tellme, well, maybe you should start to go
get on a wait list for a psychologist.
Just, just go try it out.
Maybe he is, you know, just go try it out.
No one's saying the autistic word, becauseagain, autism still isn't as it is now.
Even just like six, seven yearsago, it still wasn't as accepted.

(22:29):
Um, so it's this whole long process andwe're going through all of the motions.
Um, and when my son was goingthrough speech therapy and OT and
all of these things, my son wasnon-speaking, completely non-speaking.

(22:51):
He was aggressive, he was non engaging.
He didn't.
Know how to play with toys.
He could not stack blocks, hecould not write, he could not do
anything his other peers were doing.
Now my son is eight years old.

(23:13):
He is in a gen ed class.
He can communicate effectivelyand nobody would really notice
anything for his communication.
He can write, he loves writing.
He can stand in front of a classand give a speech if he wanted to.
We can go to Disneyland if wewanted to, and he would walk

(23:35):
next to me without running off.
He nobody, he's a high masker, which, um,means he can kind of like pretend really
well, so nobody would know the difference.
And that's all due tohis early intervention.
100%. Because we startedwhen he was 16 months old.
Wow.

Annmarie Hylton (23:51):
Okay.
That's a big, that's a big leap.

Stephanie Fluger (23:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And it's all started when he was 16months and completely non-speaking to
the point that we almost started with,um, an a, a C, like a, a speaking tablet.
Now that's saying that notall kids develop that way.
Mm-hmm.
Some, like, some kids will always needthe use of an A, a C and a tablet, and

(24:15):
all kids develop very differently and havedifferent journeys and different paths.
However, early intervention,the right therapists, the right
support can have that effect.

Annmarie Hylton (24:29):
Wow.
And, and you know, and you're talkingabout the, what they call that,
uh, the autism spectrum, I guess.
And, and, and I guess that we shouldlet people know too when they're, if
they're new to this because, you know,um, you know, sometimes people don't get
the information that they, they mean,um, when they say autism on is on a
spectrum, what does that mean in Jenna?

Stephanie Fluger (24:50):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So autism is not linear.
You don't have a single line whereyou have rain man, essentially.
So you don't have this brilliantindividual who is socially awkward and
you know, can't look you in the eye.

(25:11):
And then you have an individualwho's quirky and a little
awkward, but is just fine.
It's not like this linear thing you have.
Individuals where it's almosta circle and they have little
bits and pieces of a bucket.

(25:31):
And let me give you an exampleand kind of give you a picture.
So you might have an autisticindividual who's non-speaking.
So that might be a kiddo who usesa device called an A a C, um, like
a tablet to help them communicate.
They might press buttons ona tablet to help them talk.

(25:54):
Um, but.
So that would be like a highsupport need for communication.
However, they might have low supportneeds when it comes to, let's say,
feeding, maybe they're perfectly finebeing able to feed themselves, but
then they might have high supportneeds when it comes to education.

(26:17):
But then medium support needs when itcomes to their safety and it goes back
and forth between high support needs,low support needs within the entire
spectrum of what their capacity is.
And then let me give you an exampleof like, let's say my son specifically
where I told you he's a high mask,my son, he has low support needs

(26:38):
when it comes to communication.
He can communicate just fine, but hehas very high support needs when it
comes to sensory processing becausehe can get overwhelmed very easily.
My son also has very high supportneeds when it comes to the amount
of demands that are placed on him.
For example, just yesterday.
And if I get distracted by communication,that is because I am very overwhelmed.

(27:03):
'cause yesterday was a very roughday with my son, for example.
Yes.
Just yesterday when Ipicked him up from school.
Um, getting into the car, my son hasvery high support needs with transitions.
We were getting into the car and mydaughter picked up a piece of trash
that apparently my son thought was his.

(27:23):
Don't know why he thought it was his,but he got very, very upset to the point
that he tried to get very aggressive withmy daughter and pulled at her and yelled
at her and was very aggressive, punchingand trying to hit her to the point that
I had to move my son to the third row ofour car for the safety of my daughter.

(27:46):
'cause I did not think I could drive mycar without my son physically hurting her.
And that was, that was really bad.
Mm-hmm.
So that was, that's a very, like,that's the spectrum of it, where
other people would be like, oh, yourson's like, quote unquote normal.
I don't think he's autistic, but that'slike the spectrum where it's like people

(28:07):
don't think my son would be autistic.
Truly that is not a neurotypical, thatis not a normal behavior, correct?
Mm-hmm.
That is an autistic behavior, buthe doesn't present in a, he doesn't
present in a, in a classic autistic way.

(28:28):
Mm-hmm.
So that, that's where, where, that'swhere the spectrum comes, and that's
where a lot of this advocacy comes from.
That in the media right now, whatthey're talking about is this, this
severe nonverbal, this in their ownworld, autism, but that is only a
very small piece of autism, whichstill does need its own advocacy, but

(28:51):
it's this whole spectrum of autism.
This one in 35, 1 in 32.
That's, that's where thisadvocacy needs to be.

Annmarie Hylton (29:00):
And, you know, uh, as I was preparing for this interview,
I, um, you know, the prevalenceof, of autism according to these
statistics, of course, by this, uh, CDC.
Yeah.
Um, you know, and I, I, you know, uh,statistics are important, but I also
give, you know, a, a, a margin, a grainof salt because, you know, um, each time

(29:21):
research goes out, you don't know howin, you know, in, in depth and things
like that, that it could be, uh, even,even more the fact that it's, um, you
know, I guess a, a growing prevalence.
Um, and I don't know if that's because,um, more people are getting comfortable
to report it or, um, you know, uh.
Or there's other factors, and why I'masking this or leading to this is I'm

(29:45):
leading to the question about, uh,the causes of autism, because I think
that is always like a, a big um, yes.
Question because, you know, in, Iwould say maybe the sixties, seventies
eras, um, it was because everybodysaid they had, you know, a, a cold
mother or, uh, you know, the, or the,or the parents were just like, yes.

(30:06):
You know, um, uh, uh, whackadoodlesfor lack of better terms Yes.
Or something of that sort.
Yes.

Stephanie Fluger (30:11):
I get asked this quite a lot recently, and actually I
will say, I'll go back for a second.
In California, they say one in 23.
Wow.
Children are diagnosed in California.
So the national average doesn't, I have,I have to say it doesn't help California.

Annmarie Hylton (30:27):
We

Stephanie Fluger (30:27):
already look, we already look like

Annmarie Hylton (30:29):
a, I know

Stephanie Fluger (30:30):
they, they say in the national average is one in 32, and
then in California we're one in 23.
Um, but exactly to what you're saying.
So it is not environmental.
I mean, you can say there's theoutliers because I'm not gonna
say it's never environmental.
I, I'm not one of those type of peopleto say it's never environmental,

(30:50):
it's never something else.
But it has been proven.
And you can go look atthe true case studies.
You can go look at the truescientific data with the thousands
of actual, what is the word?
Words are escaping me.
The

Annmarie Hylton (31:09):
actual data?

Stephanie Fluger (31:11):
Yes.
The actual data.
But, um, the children thatthey pull it from the samples.
Mm-hmm.
They pulled that from oh words.
This is what happenswhen you've been a mom.
No

Annmarie Hylton (31:24):
worries.
I understand it.
I understand mom brain.
I'm glad, I'm

Stephanie Fluger (31:27):
glad.
Yeah, I know this.
Seriously.
Mom brain.
Yes.
Um, but anyways, you cango the sample sample cases.
There we go.
When it's thousands of the samples in adata pulled from and that it is the actual
data, that it is genetic, 100% genetic.
That is where theneurodiversity comes from.

(31:48):
It is not vaccine related.
It is not environmental related.
It is disproven it all, whateverthis is that is going on in
the media, in the government.
Sorry, this is going to be a verycontroversial podcast, but, uh, that it

(32:09):
is, it is not where it's coming from.
It is 100%.
Genetic.
And to exactly what you said, Anne-Marie,when you go back to thinking about
the parents and the grandparents andthings, everyone has that one uncle that
collected stamps and had that chair thatthey had to sit in, in that one place.

(32:29):
And if anybody sat in that chair,then they would kind of lose it.
And you then you startthinking back and go, oh, huh.
You know, that kind of makes sense.
And it's not that autism or neurodiversityis all of a sudden more prevalent
because of these environmental things

(32:54):
that are getting pushed on us or thatare getting, we're getting exposed to.
It's just more advocacy.
Advocacy and more awareness, and thatwe're having more early intervention, that
we're now having all of these screenings.
Back in the sixties, we didnot have these, you know.
16 month old screenings, 18 monthscreenings, two year screenings.

(33:17):
Those things did not exist.
We didn't check on these milestones.
Now we are, now, we're so much moreaware of these things now we have
preschools that are screening for speech.
I mean, I don't think that like my,even my brothers were screened for
speech or developmental milestoneswhen they were in preschool.

(33:39):
And yet my daughter, when she wasin preschool, who my daughter's
neurotypical, they told me, Hey,you might wanna get your child, your
daughter checked out for speech.
Sometimes it's hard for usto understand her talking.
Mm-hmm.

Annmarie Hylton (33:52):
And that's preschool.
Yes.
And one of the things too, when you're,you're talking about that, I also
think, you know, obviously right noweducation is under a microscope overall.
Um, but, um, I feel that there is, uh,such a, there's a critical push that
even for children that there, you know,whether they end up, you know, being on

(34:15):
a spectrum or not, that there's such acritical, like you have to reach these
milestones and if you don't read themat this time, there's something wrong.
Yes.
Um, and, and it's, uh, it, it is, um,there is a, a, uh, a very, um, at least
this is what I've noticed and, um, justtalking to, you know, parents when I

(34:37):
go, um, you know, uh, go get my daughteror something, or just around town.
That, you know, that there is this like,you know, um, I call it like, uh, you have
to fit into the mold and if you don't Yes.
And if you don't, oh, without a doubt,and, you know, uh, this and this,
you're going to be, um, you know,um, there's something going to happen

(35:00):
to you, which is I understand then.
Right?
Because, um, it makes youhesitate to start jumping into
get these, um, you know, analysesand checks and things like that.
Because this is at least whatI feel is sometimes you're
wondering, is it just, um, uh.

(35:21):
This may sound twisted, butI don't think I'm too far.
If we want to look at things, honestly,that there is benefits, I guess, if there,
um, and what I mean by that, there'sjobs, there's money, all these other
things that attached to, everything'susually around money, of course.
Right.
Um, if we have, you know, so manychildren that are diagnosed and we gotta

(35:42):
do this, so we need to get, we gotta getextra funding, then this has to happen.
Mm-hmm.
Then this has to happen, so.
Right.
It is scary, I guess, as a parent thatyou don't get sucked into something that
may or may not need to be happening.

Stephanie Fluger (35:57):
Absolutely.
I mean, it's just terrifying whenyou, when you're trying to figure
out what the right next steps are.

Annmarie Hylton (36:05):
Yes.
And so I guess, you know, you, younow have your, um, uh, organization
that you have, um, that you havestarted, um, during this time because
I'm sure that is something that youhave thought about or dealt with.
So, um, for, uh, the Connection Therapyclinic, is this something that you, um,

(36:25):
I guess, does it come up regularly withparents or something that you discuss?

Stephanie Fluger (36:30):
Yeah, so the reason connection actually started was I
talked a little bit about how weflunked out of physical therapy and
my son started therapy back when hewas 16 months old and 18 months old.
And we've been in it for a while andI've been in through so many programs and
so many different clinics and have hadnegative experiences over and over again.

(36:54):
And I felt like a cash cow.
I've felt like a number,and it's, it's been awful.
And then at one point I wasat a clinic for so many hours.
I felt like it was almosta home away from home.
Just because I wasthere for so many hours.
My son was in therapy for almostfour hours a day, four days a week.

(37:15):
And I offered like social media servicesfor them because I was there for so long.
So I was like, might as wellput myself to put myself to use.
So when I was doing that, then I sawbehind the curtain and then I saw how
the therapists were treated and then theyweren't treated any better because they
were just seeing like kid after kid afterkid without getting any breaks themselves.
And they're the ones who are gettingbit and hit and working, like putting

(37:39):
their heart and soul into these kids.
And I was like, thereneeds to be another way.
And I took my son's therapistbecause I adore them and loved them.
And I was like, you know what,we're gonna create it ourselves.
And so that was like the basisof connection therapy clinic.
And we just created itand we based it off of.

(38:03):
That's why it's called connection.
We base it off of this, this pureconnection of what it should be, and
that's really it co when it comes up andI talk about it, that it needs to be this
connection between parent and child andtherapist and just this pure wanting to
help one another and support everybodyand just everybody advocating for the

(38:29):
child, for the community, and this wholepassion around the community as a whole.
I know that whole thing soundedvery redundant, so I apologize
to everybody who listened to my,to my redundant statement there.

Annmarie Hylton (38:42):
No.
Um, but it's important thatyou, you know, you bring up
the word, uh, community, right?
Yeah.
And, and, um, so which I thinkis, you know, the, uh, appropriate
world that we need to think aboutwhen it comes to dealing with, um,
you know, not only children, right?
As they, you know, that sayinggoes that it, uh, takes a village.

(39:05):
Um mm-hmm.
And so it, you know, in, I guess in, um,in having an autistic child, um, I guess
in emphasizing in the importance of, uh,of community, how can I guess, um, just
people from, not only from like schools,but just like, I guess everywhere.

(39:27):
Um, and what I mean by everywhere islike, you know, um, maybe businesses,
um, uh, for children, I guess, youknow, uh, places they may go to such
as, you know, uh, parks and, um.
I don't know, kids play allover the place these days.
And, um, how can, uh, I guess we beeither econom, accommodating, or if not

(39:50):
accommodating, make it just feel like,um, I guess in, as you're, uh, saying
as, uh, you know, comfort food or home.

Stephanie Fluger (39:59):
Yeah, so I just recently went to, so I partner a lot with the CHOC
Thompson Center, um, in Orange County.
Um, they're an autism center.
They're absolutely wonderful.
Um, and if you're ever lookingto find a place where you can
feel comfortable to get an autismdiagnosis or anything like that, that
definitely is the best place to go.

(40:19):
Um, but they just recently dida fundraising gala and I was
there and felt so included.
And the one thing that they did when Itold them that my son was autistic, no
one asked me, oh, is he high functioning?
That is the worst thing.
You could probably ask any autisticparent, um, because one, if they are

(40:43):
not, it is very disappointing, I wouldsay, to then have to respond either no.
Or when you have an autistic parent.
Say like that their child is highfunctioning, then it makes them feel
unheard or unseen for their challenges.

(41:04):
Because when you say that a child isquote unquote high functioning, which
is actually kind of a phrase that youisn't really said anymore, it makes it
seem like they do not require support.
Now, things are saidin in support phrases.
So children are not high functioning,low functioning, they're now more high
support needs or low support needs.

(41:25):
'cause again, we're talking about aspectrum, it's not a linear thing.
So again, I would tend to talk aboutmy son being he is more on the low
support needs spectrum, but he has highsensory, high demand support needs.
Um, but going back to how can yousupport kids in the community is
if someone were to say, oh, howit, um, my child is autistic.

(41:50):
What everyone said to me at the gala,which made me feel very included,
was, how is your child doing?
Or how can I support your child?
I think that is the best way toapproach the situation, is if you're
at the park and a parent says to you,oh, my child is autistic, immediately
respond with, oh, how's the bestway that I can support your child?

(42:12):
Mm-hmm.
And either the parent can be like,oh, just give him his space and
allow him to come to you, or howeverit is, allow that parent to tell
you the best way to support them.
And that parent will feel the most heardand seen, and that parent will probably

(42:33):
feel, will be so taken back because theywill have never heard that in their life.

Annmarie Hylton (42:40):
Yes.
I think, you know, um, if Iwere to give it a word, is to
see the child as an individual.
Or I guess a few wordsas I, more than a word.
Yeah.
Yes.
Uh, individual, I guesswas the word, but yeah.
Um, yes.
To see them as just an individualbecause, you know, uh, the thing with all
children is they're a bit unpredictable.

(43:02):
Yeah, exactly.
At least that's what I, a hundred percent.
At least that's whatI've found out as a mom.
When you think it's gonna be goingthis way, then it's going this way.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so 100%.
So, um, you know, um, but having thatjust, you know, uh, treating children
as individuals, because it's, as Isaid, children aren't unpredictable.

(43:23):
Just, it doesn't matter if they, you know,have, um, um, you know, are, are dealing
with a, a special condition or not.
Um Right.
Especially in these days, I would say.
Mm-hmm.
Because there's so many, um.
I have to say, I'm glad I'm not a kid now.
Yes, I have to 100%.
I have to confess that.

(43:43):
Oh, without a doubt.
I, I agree 100%.
Oh my goodness.
I would, uh, you know, it's sadto say because I have a kid, but
I would hate to be a kid now.

Stephanie Fluger (43:55):
I agree.
I would not,

Annmarie Hylton (43:56):
I would not make it.
No.
I, you know, it, it's just, there'slike, I feel, I feel just for
all kids across the board, likewe have created a cage, right?
Yes.
And, and what I mean by like about thatis like, you know, yes, everybody, we all
love technology and yes, we should be, youknow, um, know what our children are doing

(44:22):
and, and you know where they're going.
Um, and yes, you know, they shouldbe exposed to different things.
But in today's world,it's just like you, um.
Kids don't get to become independentindividuals because everything
is, they're always being tracked.

(44:44):
Correct.
And, um, you know, that's everythingfrom technology to, um, I think most
parents these days, and, you know,I'm, I'm coming from an, I'm an older
parent and coming from, uh, you know,a different generation before we
had the internet and social media.
So you were allowed?
Mm-hmm.
You know, you were justsent outside to play.

(45:04):
And, you know, you were just supposedto be home before the lights came on.
The lights when they On the lights.
Right.
Lights, right?
Yes.
And so, um, you know, and now parentswould be like, oh my gosh, you're
just, so, I, if you would do sucha thing, you'd be irresponsible.
Oh yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, somebody would probably,um, call Child Protective Services.
You, you, you can't do, you can't,you can't do that anymore because

(45:25):
there's so many, um, you know, uh,um, dangerous, dangerous people that
are just like, you know, um, that,uh, you know, you can't, you can't
put your kid out on the sidewalk.
Somebody will take them.
Right.
It's, yeah.
It's, it's scary, right?
It's, it's, and so.
So then kids aren't evengetting to experience what

(45:48):
even I would say planet Earth.
Right?
Because I would remember you getto go outside, you go run in the
trees, you know, playing the dirt.
Dirt.
Right Now, parents wouldbe like, put the dirt down.
Put the dirt down.
Right, right.
You know, there's da, da da and this, thisis gonna have like, oh my gosh, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember walking to a friend'shouse that was like half a mile away

(46:10):
and now like when I was like sevenyears old and I'm like, I don't think
I would let my daughter do that.
No, because you, and it'slike seven, seven houses down.
I'm like, I would not let her do that.
And I know I did that.
Why?
Why would I not let her do that?
Right.
But like, yeah, but you know, now you'dbe scared and like even if you did that
then, you know, there's people like eitherlooking out the window, oh my gosh, I

(46:32):
can't believe she let her, you know.
Exactly.
100%.

Stephanie Fluger (46:37):
It's

Annmarie Hylton (46:37):
crazy.
Yeah.
So, you know, um, so sometimes, and, and,you know, I, I bring this up because, you
know, um, I think it's important also inletting, and I think this probably one of
the biggest reasons you probably startedyour clinic, is allowing kids to be kids.

Stephanie Fluger (46:57):
Yes.
Yeah.

Annmarie Hylton (46:58):
And so I guess what has made your clinic
different, I guess, in that aspect?
Like how do you allowkids still to be kids?

Stephanie Fluger (47:06):
Our clinic is, as you said in the very beginning,
it is play-based and child-led.
And that doesn't mean when the kids comein that it's like a free for all because
we still are a therapeutic clinic.
Um, but what that means is when thekids come in, the therapists will,
first of all, when they say they'renot like, okay, let's go to work.
It's okay.
Are you ready to come play?

(47:28):
Every kid that comes in sees ourclinic as playtime our entire clinic.
You don't see like.
Pictures of like speech activities andall the things, it is designed purposely
as a play gym, as a space, like oneof our rooms is designed like as a
speech sl or um, excuse me, as a, um.

(47:49):
As a youth lounge.
Another one is a playroom, anotherone is a fort building room.
And then we have our sensory gym.
So they're all built in a spacethat is for play and for engagement
and for very specific purposes.
And then when they come into our gymor into our space, the therapists
will then kind of give them a guideas, okay, you choose one activity and

(48:11):
then I'll choose another activity.
So the kiddo might choose,alright, I want to go on the swing.
And the therapist will be like, Hey,I'll write it down on our schedule.
And then the therapist might belike, okay, I wanna play with
Play-Doh because that kiddo, oneof their goals might be working on
fine motor or something like that.
And you can definitely workon fine motor with Play-Doh.

(48:32):
And then the kiddo mightbe like, okay, cool.
I want to do an obstacle course.
And so it goes back and forth, but itis always child led in that fashion.
So the child is always underthe impression that it is
play-based and led by them.
And that is how we are alwaysengaging them in that way.
And it's not, okay, come in, sit downat the table, we're gonna do flashcards

(48:53):
and you're gonna follow me and you'regoing to say this sound, or you're
going to write your name 10 times.
Because who wants to do that?
Mm-hmm.
That doesn't sound fun to me.
So why would that be fun for an 8-year-oldafter they just went through school for
five hours and tried to hold it together?
They're not gonna wanna do that after.

(49:15):
So we try to make it as engagingand fun for them as possible.

Annmarie Hylton (49:21):
I like that.
I like that.
You know, especially lettingkids have a, a choice.
So they feel like, you know, um, I'msure that you find some of the kids are
already, like, you know, probably inthe, on their way there, in the car,
they're already thinking like, what amI gonna, you know, what activity Yeah.
Am I gonna do?
And you know, so that, you know, when,when they get asked, they're like, I'm
gonna do the Play-Doh, or you know.

(49:42):
Exactly.
And they come exactly.
Come in, they come in with enthusiasmbecause they, uh, not only because it's,
you know, a known routine, but thenthey get to know that they have control.
And Exactly.
And uh, you know, and that'salways exciting for kids of course.
Right.
Um, you know, that's why theylove the word is they say no.
They say no.
They have control.

Stephanie Fluger (50:03):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And we try to give that to themwithin, within reason and all of that.
And I mean, a lot of themhate to leave, which is good.
I mean, I feel bad for theparents because it's never easy
to get your kiddo to leave.
But that makes me feel like I'mdoing my job of trying to make
this a welcoming space that theycan come and feel safe here.

(50:24):
Mm-hmm.
And want to stay.

Annmarie Hylton (50:26):
Yes.
And now I just wanna switch theconversation a little bit, bit.
Yeah.
About, you know, asthese children grow up.
Um, and so, you know, obviously,um, children go through all
their developmental, um,stages and then, you know.
Um, uh, get to adulthood and as youhave been mentioning, we've been talking

(50:48):
about there's, uh, especially in themedia, there's a, you know, um, an
emphasis on, uh, what does this looklike, and, you know, uh, concern of
I guess, the most severe individuals.
Um, and so.
As you know, um, these childrengrow up and they go into adulthood.
And adulthood, of course, you know,starts to have different requirements,

(51:12):
uh, meaning, you know, for an, uh,employment and, you know, um, and, uh.
Well, these days, depending onwhat city and state you're in.
Yeah.
Hopefully independent living.
Right.
Even the regular, even the, you know,the, the, uh, um, uh, for us, um, you

(51:33):
know, already adults and everything, eventhat's getting difficult to, it's getting
the, the, the prices are like very true.
So maybe, you know, that was, I, Iguess I, what I was saying there,
our regular, how we, uh, usedto perceive how life progressed.
Mm-hmm.
You know, you would live with yourparents and then, and move out.
Right.
But, um, you know, we might be goingback to olden days and you don't move

(51:54):
out unless you get married or something.

Stephanie Fluger (51:57):
Yeah.
Pretty much.

Annmarie Hylton (51:59):
Yeah.
The way, the way that, uh,you know, um, inflation and
economics is going, but Right.
Um, I guess in, um, making or preparing,um, these children for those types
of, um, transitions, what in, uh,I guess this is a big question.
Yeah.
Um, what in our society, I hear itcoming, what in society or how can

(52:20):
society really, um, I guess, be preparedfor these individuals or prepare these
individ individuals to, to do that?

Stephanie Fluger (52:29):
I gotta be honest, um, my stage of experience right now is
eight years old because my son is eight.
Mm-hmm.
So that's where my experience is.
However, I will say a lot like somepeople, um, are put on this earth,
and this is like the social medialike phrasing, but this is like

(52:49):
not action planned, if you will.
Like some people are put on the earth toput into the world and some people are put
on this earth to help and just be there.
And a lot of autistic individuals thatare non-speaking, uh, have the biggest
hearts and they are here to remind us.

(53:12):
To be kind and to bewonderful human beings.
And if you have ever met some of thesenon-speaking autistic individuals,
they are absolutely wonderfulpeople that really, really teach
us very important parts of life.

(53:33):
And they,
they're just absolutely amazing remindersof what life is supposed to be about.
But as far as the community and whatwe're supposed to do to support them,
that, I don't know.

(53:54):
I, it's, it's very,
it's very unknown withwhat is changing mm-hmm.
And how things are gonna play outin the next three and a half years.
Yes.
I'm very scared.
Um, yeah, the next three anda half years, I'm very scared.

Annmarie Hylton (54:18):
Yeah.
I, I think, you know, um, yeah, Iguess, you know, the future itself,
of course is always un unpredictable.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, I guess as a, I guess acomponent of that question, would
you say that either that technology,um, is, uh, helping or, or probably,

(54:40):
um, hindering autistic children?
Or is it so, uh, varied that, um,that it doesn't, it's unknown.

Stephanie Fluger (54:49):
I would say technology is definitely helping.

Annmarie Hylton (54:51):
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Fluger (54:52):
I mean, without a doubt.
I know with technology, we have a a cdevices, which are the tablets that help.
Children communicate.
We have, I mean, I know I use myson's tablets to help him regulate.
When he uses my phone to watch videosin very overstimulating environments, I
will give him my phone to watch YouTube.

(55:13):
And that helps him kind of go intohis own world to help him regulate.
Um, without that, I don't know reallywhat I would do in those situations.
Um, there are headphones with noisereducing technology that's amazing,
that helps a lot of other kids regulate.

(55:33):
The technology is gettingbetter and better.
That, I think, is very useful.
But on the other side of that, Imean, technology can be very harmful
because video games can be veryaddictive to some autistic individuals.
So it just kind of depends, just as itwould with a neurotypical individual.

(55:54):
It, it all depends upon what.
How each individual reacts to thetechnology and engages with it.

Annmarie Hylton (56:06):
Yes.
Um, yeah, and I wish, you know, Iwish I had a, uh, a crystal ball
to see how things would un unfold.
Um, and so, you know, because I, I wondersometimes, um, just, you know, in general
because of the effects of technologyin our society that, you know mm-hmm.

(56:26):
We have, um, all of us, andI'm, I'm sure you felt this,
'cause I feel this sometimes.
Um, not only that, like insidewanting to scream, feeling.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
For sure.
But like you, I, I started realizing,I guess, and I, I started comparing

(56:47):
myself from, uh, when I wasyounger, of course, you know, as
you get older, things are changing,especially as, as, as as women too.
But, um, but.
I started seeing that I, I justdidn't relax the same anymore.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Like even like, you know, so, youknow, um, before, I guess before it was

(57:12):
like, um, uh, well I'm not that old,but, um, I guess, uh, I was gonna say
before we had email at, at work, but.
Um, I'm not that old, but I'll say before,I guess, uh, before, um, I guess email
became the, the prime communication,I guess, in the workplace, when you

(57:33):
were, when you would leave, you feltlike, okay, well I did what I could.
Right?
Right.
Yeah.
In those, in those, those hoursand then you left work and you
left out, the work is done.
Right.
And then, and then you had aswitch in your mind, right.
That, okay, now I have to do quoteunquote, the rest of my life.
Right.
Which means like, I have togo home and I have to cook.

(57:56):
If you had kids take care of kids, right.
I have to go run and do chores.
I'm gonna go work out, you know?
Yes.
Or whatever, whatever your lifewas, what, whatever it was about.
Right.
Right, right.
And so you had thatswitch, but now mm-hmm.
In fact, you, it doesn't exist.
It doesn't exist.
Or you might be penalized.
'cause I got into, you know, um,you know, uh, uh, jobs that would

(58:18):
be like, what do you mean, like.
What, what you're, you'renot on right now, right?
Oh, I'd be like, um, uh, well,I had to go to the bathroom.
Oh my God.
Right.
You know, you have like things like thiswhere people just, you know, expected
you to be on, you're getting like, youknow, text messages and it's 10, 11
at night and you're like, oh, my word.

(58:40):
You know?
Um, but I'm, you know, I was working ina, a marketing and, you know, oh yeah.
I'm the creative and creative.
Yeah.
And you, you have amarketing background as well.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And so, you know, yes, I get it.
Yeah.
So there's always something, youknow, um, churning out or, you know.
Unfolding, right?
Yeah, always.
And, and, and so, um, so there wasnever really an off switch or, you know,

(59:01):
you might have an ostrich where youhad to like, uh, for, I'd work at an
environment sometimes where people wouldbe like, okay, it's seven, so I'm off.
Now because I have to eat.
Right?
Like people would putthat in the text, right?
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Like they would put that in thetext, like, you know, I have to eat.
So, and you know, I gotta take the showerand, you know, like, actually, right.

(59:22):
Oh my gosh.
Like, you know, do my human, human needs.
Right.
Human

Stephanie Fluger (59:25):
needs.
Like Yeah.
Bio break.
I need a

Annmarie Hylton (59:27):
bio break.
Right, exactly.
And, and so, you know, but then,you know, by 6:00 AM the next day
people are like, nothing stopped.
Right.
I, and I, I'm sure you've encountered,uh, you know, working with people
like that, you're like, wow.
Like, you know.
Oh yeah.
Like, like it seems like they,like, you know, barely their head
hits the pillow and their back.

(59:48):
Like, you know, even, oh, that's me.

Stephanie Fluger (59:50):
That's me.
I can't, I'm not gonna lie.
That's me.

Annmarie Hylton (59:53):
I'm

Stephanie Fluger (59:53):
that person.

Annmarie Hylton (59:55):
And then back in the conversation, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, you know, so I'm not sure,like overall, you know, and I'm just
taking this from a, a whole globalperspective, and not even just from,
uh, you know, looking at NeuroD, uh,uh, um, uh, neuro diversity, neuro
neurodiversity, excuse me, neurodiversity.
But can we actually keep this all up?

(01:00:18):
No.

Stephanie Fluger (01:00:19):
Right.
No.
The hard, no, we can't,we're all gonna crash, right?
Let me tell you.
Yes.
I'm like in my crash right now.
Hence the reason of my like.
Sprain like mom brain momentstoday, like I am in my downward
spiral crash this week.
Actively, no, we cannot keep it up.
Like it does not work.

(01:00:41):
We will all crash at one pointand then someone will have
to pick us up off the ground.

Annmarie Hylton (01:00:47):
Yes.
And you know, so I, you know, so whenit comes to, you know, autism Right?
And talking about these century issuesand, you know, overloading of mm-hmm.
There's a word

Stephanie Fluger (01:00:57):
for it.
Mm-hmm.
It's called a autism burnout.
Mm-hmm.
Autistic burnout.
Mm-hmm.
And my son went through it, uh,last year and it lasts for a while.
And it was brutal.
Absolutely brutal.
Have you heard of thephrase autistic burnout?
Oh, yes.
It.

(01:01:18):
I'm not sure if that's whereyou were going with this.

Annmarie Hylton (01:01:20):
Oh, yes, yes.
That's what I wanted to talk about ishow to, how these burnouts, because
I was just looking and, and I, I wastrying to make it, uh, I was telling
the, like the backstory kind of to getpeople to understand, um, you know.
Uh, even if they, you know, don'tknow someone who's autistic or
haven't have any experience of whatit is, you know, of something that

(01:01:43):
is relatable or happening to society.
Mm-hmm.
That's unavoidable at this moment.

Stephanie Fluger (01:01:47):
Yeah.

Annmarie Hylton (01:01:48):
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Fluger (01:01:48):
Yeah.
So last year my son hadfinished kindergarten.
He did great.
We're going into first grade andI'm like, all right, awesome.
You've got friends, you're inkindergarten, you're in gen ed.
Great.
We're gonna sign you up for soccer.
You seem like you're doing great.
He's a very social kid.
Again, he's a social kid, so peoplelike think that he's not autistic

(01:02:10):
because he's a high masker, sowe're gonna sign you up for soccer.
'cause he is been asking, um,which soccer has, you know, and
it's just like through the city.
So it what a practice once aweek and then a game on Saturday.
And then he's still in his twospeeches a week and he's in
occupational therapy twice a week.
Um, and then he's in school.

(01:02:32):
Um.
So we're gonna do all that.
Great.
And then I think we were, oh, andthen we were doing like surfing
OT therapy on the weekends.
We're gonna do it.
We've started it in September,come October, my son started to get
aggressive and he started biting meand he started not doing homework.

(01:02:58):
He started not listening.
And this was only at home.
He started throwing his toys againat his sister and behaving like
he used to when he was about threeand things were really rough.
Side note, um, I to this day think thatif you have an autistic kiddo and they're
about three years old, I still to this daythink that is the hardest age because that

(01:03:23):
is right When you're starting to learnthat your kid is autistic, that is when
you don't know really what's going on.
You don't know how to support.
You are just in the beginning stages.
So if your kiddos around that age,you're doing a great job, you're in
the hardest stage, you can do it.
Back to my story, um, he is biting me.

(01:03:46):
He is kicking, he ishitting, he is aggressive.
He's not listening.
It is a very deep spiral.
We're going into Thanksgiving, November.
We're going into the holidays, December.
We are getting into the last, we'regoing into the very last week of

(01:04:08):
soccer, and now he's getting reallyupset because he is yet to score a
goal, um, during any of the games.
And he is getting really, really upset.
He's now not wanting to go to soccer.
He's completely eloping.
And what eloping meansis that he just runs off.
He doesn't give any warning.
He doesn't do anything.
It is very unsafe.

(01:04:28):
He will just run into aroad, he will run away.
It's not even a coherentthought or anything like that.
He just runs.
Um, so he's like essentiallyrunning into the road because he
doesn't want to be there anymore.
We end up, stop going to soccer.
He doesn't get his soccer trophy.
He doesn't go to his soccerparty at the end of the year.

(01:04:50):
I mean, it was, the coach didn'teven reach out to us or give us
his trophy, which was kind of sad.
Um, at this point, once we.
Stop doing everything except for speechand o or sorry, lemme take a step back.
Um, to this point, even his OT wastelling me that she needed help.

(01:05:11):
She's like, I don't even know what to do.
This is outside of sensory.
Um, we need to bring in abehavioral therapist because this
is, this is even too much for me.
We need more help.
So then we had to bring in a B, A, andI know a BA is another hot topic, which
we can go into or have a whole notherconversation about, but we had to bring
in a b, A for extra support because of theaggression and because of the behavior.

(01:05:34):
Um, so we had to add thatin for the extra support.
It was very intense.
We had to pull all of the activities out.
Time, time, time went by.
Finally, by March of last year, thingsstarted to settle and I realized that
it was an autistic burnout and wefinally kind of regulated by June.

Annmarie Hylton (01:06:00):
Wow.
Just in time

Stephanie Fluger (01:06:00):
for summer.
Oh wow.
Oh

Annmarie Hylton (01:06:02):
my gosh.
Yeah.
Wow.
You went through It was, uh, I would sayyou went through more than a marathon.

Stephanie Fluger (01:06:11):
It was, it was rough.
It was rough.
And now I feel like.
Hopefully we're not going through anotherburnout, but I feel like yesterday was
kind of the peak of the beginning of it.
So that's also why I'm like, I'm,I'm distracted a little today.
I guess I have, I

Annmarie Hylton (01:06:25):
only have, uh, two more questions for you.
Yeah.
But, um, uh, I guess in, in talkingabout these, uh, therapies, so, you
know, um, I think, uh, sometimes forpeople in, um, society, the word therapy,
it's controversial in itself, right?
Everybody's like, its Oh, no,no, not, not therapy, right?
Oh, God, God forbid.

(01:06:47):
Right.
And so in, in, um, and, uh, you know,with autism therapies, uh, you know,
suggested over and over all differenttypes of therapies, some therapies
I've never even heard of about.
Yeah.
Um, and so I guess, uh, would yousay what are, uh, I guess, um, uh,

(01:07:08):
I guess how to make people, I guess,comfortable with therapies and, you
know, what are, um, you know, I guessthe, the good and bad about therapies.
Um, I guess what's yourfeeling around therapies?

Stephanie Fluger (01:07:21):
Yeah, well, I'll start with the two easiest
that are the least controversial.
So speech therapy is the first thingthat will always be referred with
like no diagnosis, no anything.
If your kiddo has any mild speech delay.
And that is just speech therapy.

(01:07:43):
Um.
You'll be with a speech languagepathologist or a speech pa,
language pathologist assistant.
And it is just essentially eitherarticulation or it would be a re a
receptive meaning how your child intakesinformation or processes information,

(01:08:06):
um, or how they express information,whether that would be through
gestures or how they verbalize it.
And that is what the speech languagepathologist or assistant would do.
And also a side note, there is veryminimal difference between an assistant
and a speech language pathologist.

(01:08:27):
The only difference is that a speechlanguage pathologist can actually do
the assessment and can actually takethe assessment and turn it into goals.
So if you end up with an assistant,they are just as amazing as.
The pathologist, so don't feellike you will not get amazing

(01:08:48):
service with an assistant.
Side note, um, that's speech.
Next is occupational therapy.
This is a little less known, but it ismy soap box that I feel like everybody
should send their child to neurotypical orneurodivergent because it is so helpful.

(01:09:14):
Uh, um, excuse me.
Occupational therapy works onfine motor and gross motors.
So that would be anything likehand handwriting, grasping.
So if your kiddo is struggling, holdingonto a fork or a pencil or grabbing blocks
or anything like that, holding theirtoothbrush, anything sensory related.

(01:09:36):
So if they have challengeswith like soft fabrics or.
Scratchy fabrics or too much temperatureand different things, anything sensory
related, loudness, um, emotionalregulation, that is all occupational

(01:09:57):
therapy as well as picky eating.
Picky eating can, can be a phase,but it can also be something that an
occupational therapist can help support.
So if your kiddo was only eatingfive foods, that is something
maybe worth looking into foroccupational therapy support.
That is not something you need to sitand wait through for 2, 3, 4 plus years

(01:10:23):
until they get through that phase.
And your kiddo does notneed to be autistic.
They do not need to have a DHDto go to occupational therapy.
Even just going to learn how todo feeding therapy or feeding
support if, as we're talking abouttherapy could be a scary word.

(01:10:43):
Feeding support could be helpful.
That's OT and speech now to the bigcontroversial one, a BA therapy.
Anne Marie, have youheard about a BA therapy?

Annmarie Hylton (01:10:56):
I have, in fact.
Um, okay.
And so, uh, but, um, I have, uh, I haveto say I don't know all the ins and
outs of it, so I would love to get,I guess, uh, the insider's details.

Stephanie Fluger (01:11:08):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So a BA therapy, applied behavior,something with an A, it escapes me.
A BA therapy is more of acompliance based therapy.
So at Connection Therapy Clinic,what my clinic is, we always

(01:11:32):
say connection over compliance.
So we.
Really focus on theplay-based child-led most.
A BA therapy is more compliance.
They want the child to comply,they want the child to do what

(01:11:52):
the therapist is directed.
A BA structure is directed from A, B,C, BA therapist, which is a therapist
who goes and gets their masters.
And then the therapy is providedby A RBT, which is a registered

(01:12:13):
behavioral technician, um, who goesthrough extensive training and then
will implement the strategies thatthe masters, ther, master's level
therapist tells the technician to do.
A BA is the number onereferred therapy from.

(01:12:36):
Um,
sorry.
A BA therapy is the numberone referred therapy.
Once you get your diagnosis, the reasonit is referred is because it comes
with parent support and it is normallyreferred in 20, 30 and 40 hour increments.

(01:12:59):
That can be very overwhelming to parentsversus speech and OT is more, speech might
be three times a week for 30 minutes.
OT might be two times aweek for one hour each.
Going back to a b, a as acompliance based, that not

(01:13:20):
all a BA therapy is like that.
There are few who are verychild led, supportive.
Therapists.
And when I told my story aboutme having to bring in an a, b, a
therapist and bringing in a BA formy son when he was in his autistic
burnout, there are two therapists thatI trust 100% wholeheartedly, that are

(01:13:42):
child led and listen to my goals andwhat I need support for for my son.
And that's why I feltcomfortable bringing that in.
But I've also had pretty severe negativeexperiences that I will not trust anybody
or any a, b, a therapist with my kidsbecause it can be pretty scary out there.

Annmarie Hylton (01:14:06):
So just as a, a note.
Uh, so applied ba uh, behavior,uh, behavior analysis, therapy

Stephanie Fluger (01:14:12):
analysis.
There we go.
That,

Annmarie Hylton (01:14:13):
um, yes, yes.
Um, you know, uh, yes, I guess,you know, because it's, uh, I
guess it's almost even in its name.
It's, uh, an ever of evolvingtherapy, I guess you would say.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, it doeshave, uh, it's controversy.
Um, and so, uh, but you know, itof course, um, helped also, um,

(01:14:38):
ma many children at the same time.
Yes.
Um, so it's just something for sure.
It's something I guess to really examine,um, for parents who are thinking about
it before, uh, I guess diving in.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
100%. And so, um, I guess in, in, inclosing out, um, what would you say,

(01:15:00):
um, for, I think the, the hardest part.
Of, you know, I guess, uh, autism whenit comes to your, your child is the, is
the beginning of finding out, becauseI would say once you're in it, not
that it, uh, you know, gets easier,but you've, you've probably als already
went to the, the acceptance or whatI call the old, old brother stage.

(01:15:25):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Um, so for parents that are in thatstarting out, um, anxiety, scared
stage, if you were going to givethem, I guess the, the pep talk or
the speech or the thing that you wishwould've happened when you started out,

(01:15:46):
what would you have said to yourself?

Stephanie Fluger (01:15:49):
Breathe.
That's the advice I alwaysgive, is to take a breath.
That's, that's what we tell ourkids to do when they're overwhelmed,
is to just take a deep breath in.
Big belly breath.
Breathe in and draw a roadmap,
write it down.

(01:16:10):
What is your next step?
What is it that you need to get done?
Because the scariest thing is the unknown.
The scariest thing is the not knowing,and that is what's terrifying us at
this time, is what's going to happen?
What are the next steps?

(01:16:32):
What are we waiting for?
So if it's all in your head,then it's just floating around.
So if you can get a piece of paper,if you can get a journal, go ahead
and just put it on a piece of paper.
Even if it doesn't make sense on thepiece of paper, if it's sitting there
written down, then you can just get itout of your brain and write it down.

(01:16:55):
And if you have a village.
Use your village.
If not, come find me on my website,connection therapy clinic.com.
I have something, it's called On DemandParenting, or you can book a one-on-one
parenting coaching session with me.
I will come, I will walk you through it.

(01:17:16):
I will walk you through insurance.
I will walk you through the grief.
I will walk you through all the things,all the feelings I have been there.
It is tough, and I will listen to it all.
So come find me, and I willhelp you create that roadmap.
But you can do it.

Annmarie Hylton (01:17:37):
I think that's, uh, fantastic advice because you
can drive yourself crazy in yourmind just thinking about this stuff.
But when you, uh, you know, uh, canlook down and see that, you know,
what are the, the things that are,you know, bothering you and what
are the things that you need to do?

(01:17:57):
Um, it helps you have somethingto focus on and think clearly.
Um, I, I think that's wonderful advice.
Thank you, Stephanie, foryour time and insight.
To learn more about Stephanie Fluer,go to connection therapy clinic.com.
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem, or

(01:18:17):
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