Saving the Nonprofit World

In this episode of the Project Good podcast, host Annmarie Hylton focuses on the devastating effects of recent federal funding cuts on nonprofits. Special guest Katherine Lacefield, a renowned expert in the philanthropic sector, shares insights into the current crisis facing nonprofits and offers valuable strategies for overcoming funding disruptions. With over 20 years of experience, Katherine emphasizes the importance of diversifying revenue streams and shifting from a scarcity to an abundance mindset. She also addresses the need for nonprofits to embrace technology, focus on impactful programs, and collaborate with other organizations to sustain and grow despite financial challenges. The conversation highlights the critical role of nonprofits in social and environmental justice and offers practical advice for maintaining resilience in unpredictable times.

00:00 Introduction to Project Good Podcast 00:26 The Nonprofit Funding Crisis 01:36 Introducing Katherine Lacefield 02:48 Katherine's Background and Expertise 05:40 The Impact of Government Funding Cuts 08:13 Strategies for Nonprofit Sustainability 09:52 Building Strong Donor Relationships 20:38 Case Study: Small Nonprofit Success 30:25 Kickstarting Your Fundraiser with Initial Support 32:08 Personal Journey: From Environmentalist to Animal Advocate 33:52 Challenges in Animal and Environmental Advocacy 37:36 The Importance of Nonprofit Unity and Collaboration 41:48 Effective Strategies for Nonprofit Success 51:36 Avoiding Burnout in the Nonprofit Sector 54:48 Resources and Recommendations for Nonprofits 57:08 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Katherine Lacefield is a trusted partner in the philanthropic space, with over 20 years of experience empowering organizations and individuals to bring about positive impact in their communities. Her knowledge and expertise span many areas, from overall fundraising strategy, monthly donations, major donation campaigns, and peer-to-peer, to a nuanced understanding of the global grantmaking landscape, animal welfare and rights, and sustainable development. Katherine is the founder and head consultant of Just Be Cause Consulting, bringing a wealth of insights to the table. Through her clients, volunteering, webinars, speaking gigs, articles, and podcast, The Just Be Cause Podcast, Katherine has helped hundreds of nonprofits get excited about fundraising again. She has supported many nonprofits in establishing sustainable funding plans, from small grassroots advocacy groups to large international organizations. As the former Coordinator and Communications Manager of PhiLab, Canada's largest philanthropic grantmaking research lab, Katherine has been at the forefront of grantmaking research, particularly in the realms of social and environmental justice since 2017. Through her role, she has fostered invaluable relationships with grantmaking foundations, nonprofits, and philanthropy researchers worldwide. Her work has covered diverse aspects of philanthropy, including the arts, invisible causes, marginalised communities, environment and climate change, social inequalities, and indigenous relations. You find Katherine on the Just Be Cause Podcast and at Just Be Cause Consulting at https://www.justbecause.consulting

Episode Transcript

Annmarie Hylton (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Project Good podcast.
I'm your host, Annmarie Hylton.
Project Good is a social impact podcast,interviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is to inspirepeople and organizations to develop a
mindset that can move others to positiveaction regarding the complex social

(00:23):
issues facing people and the planet.
For November, we're focusedon saving the nonprofit world.
Many nonprofits have lost federalfunding this year due to various cuts and
disruptions impacting their ability tooperate programs and serve communities.
Between January and June, 2025, aboutone third of nonprofits experienced

(00:45):
some form of government fundingdisruption such as funding losses,
delays, freezes, or stop work orders.
This has led to program suspensions,staff reductions, and increased
financial instability from manyorganizations across different sectors.
Approximately one third of nonprofitsreported experiencing at least one

(01:06):
type of government funding disruption.
21% reported a loss ofsome government funding.
27% experienced a delay, pause or freezein funding, and 6% received stop work
orders that halted programs entirely.
This led to a shockwave ofdisbelief in the nonprofit space.
So in the spirit of creating arebound for nonprofits, we decided

(01:28):
to have a specialist on our showduring the most important quarter of
the year for nonprofits instead ofour usual giving Tuesday campaign.
Catherine Lacefield is a trustedpartner in the philanthropic space.
With over 20 years of experienceempowering organizations and
individuals to bring about positiveimpact in their communities.
Her knowledge and expertise spanmany areas from overall fundraising

(01:52):
strategy, monthly donations, majordonation campaigns, and peer-to-peer to
a nuanced understanding of the globalgrant making landscape, animal welfare
rights, and sustainable development.
Catherine is the founder and headconsultant of just Because consulting,
bringing a wealth of insight to the tablethrough her clients, volunteers, webinars,

(02:15):
speaking gigs, articles, and podcasts.
The Jess B Cause podcast, Catherinehas helped hundreds of nonprofits
get excited about fundraising again.
She has supported many nonprofitsin establishing sustainable
funding plans from small groupgrassroots advocacy groups to
large international organizations.

(02:37):
Let's get into the interview.
With an academic background inenvironmental development and nonprofit
management, Catherine Lacefield hasdeepened her understanding of the
intricate connections between themany social issues that affect our

(02:59):
communities and the important role ofthe nonprofit sector as the former.
Coordinator and communicationsmanager of Phil Lab, Canada's largest
philanthropic grant making research lab.
Catherine has been at the forefrontof grant making research, particularly
in the realms of social andenvironmental justice since 2017.

(03:21):
Through her role, she has fosteredinvaluable relationships with grant
making foundations, nonprofits, andphilanthropy researchers worldwide.
Her work has covered diverse aspectsof philanthropy, including the arts and
visible causes, marginalized communities,environment, and climate change, social
inequalities, and indigenous relations.
Welcome, Katherine.

(03:42):
Glad to be here.
Yes, I'm so excited, um, uh, for yourtime today and to talk about this
important topic that, uh, seemed to bethe, uh, I guess you could say in, uh,
this, uh, space, a nonprofit space.
It's, uh, the hot topic of, uh, 20 20 25.
Um, but before we get into, um,the questions, I always like to

(04:05):
get to know my guests a little bit.
Um.
And how they think and, uh, their heart.
And so, um, what currentlyexcites you about the nonprofit
or philanthropic space?
That's a big question

Katherine Lacefield (04:20):
to start.
Um, I've honestly spent my entirelife working with nonprofits in
many different ways, either as avolunteer, as a frontline worker,
as a funder, as a researcher.
So I've really touched ondifferent aspects of the field and.
To be honest, the thing that I foundthe most motivating was the fact that

(04:43):
everyone in this space is trying todo something to improve this world.
And I've talked to other people who don'tseem to have that same motivation in
the corporate space, for example, whereeveryone's just trying to make money.
And that motivation, that inspiration,that passion isn't always there.
And for me, even if.
It's challenging.

(05:04):
We can dig, dive into the how challengingit is these days, but I found that
working with people in a nonprofitspace has always been very motivating
because they're trying to do something.
We're all trying to do somethingto make this world better, and that
takes many different forms, but that'sdefinitely why I still am here 20 years.

Annmarie Hylton (05:24):
Understandable.
And we need a lot of,uh, uh, what could I say?
If we could, uh, stamp these,um, these times, I guess it would
be the, the, the call for changeis what I would call mm-hmm.
What I would, what would, I would name it.
Um, and so, uh.
As you, I'm sure, uh, are well awareand, uh, probably, um, experienced

(05:46):
it on a personal level, um, with thenew administration that came mm-hmm.
Into the, uh, government,uh, president Trump.
Um.
Came, uh, I'll just saya tidal wave of changes.
Yeah.
I'll just call it a tidal wavebecause, you know, um, I guess we
could see it in the distance and then,uh, and then start, and now we are

(06:11):
feeling the crash of that tidal wave.
Agreed.
Uh, um, and so I guess I.
What's the start atthe beginning, I guess?
So between, uh, the start of this yeartill early summer June, um, a lot of
nonprofits, um, were experiencing,um, uh, disruption and, you know,

(06:34):
getting notices that their, youknow, their federal funding, the
funding is gonna cut, was, uh, gone.
Um, people who were working in the.
The profit space lost their jobs'cause there was no money to pay them.
Um, some programs, uh, are nolonger around because, uh, they
just, uh, they got actually noticesto stop, uh, doing their work.

(06:56):
Um, and so.
I'm sure, uh, from a personallevel, you felt the effects of this.
Um, I guess let's talk about like, uh,any experiences that you had during
this time, um, from, uh, your own work.

Katherine Lacefield (07:14):
Well, of course.
I think a lot of nonprofits have beenaffected, and I noticed it most when
I do my conferences or my webinars,or when I have conversations with
nonprofit leaders where they're allin this state of heightened stress and
pressure and they don't know what to do.
Um.
I think that this is more so now thanI've ever seen it in my entire career

(07:37):
because people are, have been used togetting certain types of funding and even
the, the cease and desist like ask, likeasking people to just close their doors.
Like that's a huge question to askof what these nonprofit leaders.
Now I will say one thing though, thisis not something that has no historical.
Background, like this is not thefirst time that this happens.

(07:59):
And as a Canadian, like I've seen thishappen with organizations in Canada
where there's a change of government,there's different funding envelopes and
funding from the government shuts down.
And this is where.
I hate saying it, but I've always beena fan of diversification of income
because then you don't have to dependon one funder for your program to exist.

(08:23):
And I think this is a lesson herefor anyone listening, like no matter
how aligned the current governmentis with your programs or with
your with your services, alwaystry to seek out diversification.
Always make sure you have a diverserevenue stream so that you're
not stuck in these situations.
There was an example where this program.

(08:45):
Um, in Canada, which would bring studentsfrom different provinces and would ship
them across the country to have a, acultural exchange program, and they were a
hundred percent funded by the government,even if they have tons of opportunities
of using their past participants tobecome future donors and stewardists
stewarding those relationships.
And then from one year to thenext, they had to replace the

(09:06):
millions of dollars in funding.
You can't do that overnight.
So as much as I hateit like it's happening.
And so my call to arms, if Icould say, or my call to action is
start diversifying your revenue.
Now, even if your program has notseen budget cuts, even if your program
or your organization has not beenaffected, you should still take this

(09:27):
as a warning to start working ondifferent revenue streams so that you're
not faced with the same situation.
So that's kind of beenwhat I've been seeing.
And of course, as a consultant.
This has been in a way beneficial inthe sense that more nonprofits are
seeking out help, but the downsideis that many of them don't have the
funds to hire someone to actuallyimplement the programs that they need.

(09:50):
In a nutshell.

Annmarie Hylton (09:52):
Yes.
And, and so, you know, you're, you'recall to divers, diversify revenue
streams, I guess, in doing thatbecause, you know, some nonprofits
might not be used to that or have,uh, very little experience doing that.
Um, what are some, uh, common likemistakes or pitfalls that you see, um,
that organizations make when they startto jump into diversi Uh, diversification.

Katherine Lacefield (10:18):
Yeah, for sure.
Well, number one, a lot of nonprofitsassume that they can just make a Facebook
post and that people will, you know, beclamoring to donate to your organization.
Like, that's generally not how it works,unless you have a huge following, a
very engaged audience, um, and thatyou have a very strong reputation

(10:38):
that people know what you do andhave seen the impact of your work.
Think unicef, think the Red Cross.
Think.
These big organizations that have thatreputation, they can make a publication
on social media and it will get traction.
However, most organizations, ifthey haven't been in the di, that
diversification, if they haven't goneinto individual giving, you can't
start off like that and expect it tosnap your fingers and suddenly you

(11:01):
have a whole bunch of people donating.
It takes time and you need to buildup relationships with your audience.
So I think a lot of people need tothink about who their audience is,
who are their closest fans, theirtheir biggest, uh, fans, if I could
say that are around them already.
And start there.
Start with the people closest to youand then build further and further away.

(11:22):
Um.
A lot of nonprofits tend to neglectbuilding up their communities.
They focus so much on the services,which I totally understand.
However, building up an emailing list,building up your social media, following
and curating and engaging that audiencethrough time is what's gonna allow you to
have a strong, um, a strong donor base.

(11:43):
And also if you're thinking aboutengaging corporate funders or sponsors.
That audience is gonna be your ticketto attracting sponsors that are gonna
say, Hey, you have a huge audience thatfits our niche and our target audience.
We will gladly sponsor yourprogram because we're getting
visibility in front of all thosepeople, so they work hand in hand.

(12:05):
You can't just expect to do onerevenue stream and not the other.
They really all work together.
So that would be like my initial advice.
If you're starting from scratch, youneed to start by building up your
communities before you can startdoing massive fundraising campaigns.

Annmarie Hylton (12:21):
Yes.
And then, you know, um, another issuethat I would, uh, I'm just making the
assumption, but I don't think I'm too far.
Um.
You know, removed from reality in thisis that, you know, when this started
happening, uh, to nonprofits, uh, youknow, a lot of nonprofits that either,
you know, had limited budgets or, um, youknow, I think there's already like a, uh.

(12:48):
I guess, um, message, when peoplehear nonprofits, they already
think like hardly any money.
Mm-hmm.
Already hardly any money.
Right.
Um, and so, um, this probably onlyadded to like a scarcity mindset.
And so, um, you know, one of the thingsthat I know that you're known about is
about challenging that scarcity mindset.

(13:08):
And so right now, um, I thinkthey would probably need that
advice straight from you.
Um.
I guess what, how do theychange that thinking?
How do you go from scarcity,abundance thinking in such a, a
situation essentially when the rugwas pulled under from, from under you?

Katherine Lacefield (13:28):
Um, yes.
I think everyone in the nonprofit spacehas this idea around what nonprofit
means, and that means we can't make money.
And that's, that's not exactlythe definition of nonprofit.
So just to clarify for everyone listening,as a nonprofit, you can definitely
raise as much funds as you need.

(13:49):
The question is abouthow those funds are used.
So the nonprofit component is around, youcan't be giving it to shareholders, right?
It has to be reinvestedinto your nonprofit.
So just the public sometimes hasthese preconceptions around that of
like, oh, they have so much money.
How is that possible?
Well, yeah.
Well, we run a whole bunch of programs.
And if you look at the nonprofitworld, there are nonprofits in most

(14:12):
sectors that are making enormouswaves, that are raising tons of money.
If they can do it, so can many nonprofits.
But like I said earlier, youcan't just expect it to start from
scratch and suddenly get thousandsand hundreds of thousands and
millions of dollars coming in.
It's a, it's a process.
And I would say you have to believe thatpeople will want to fund your cause.

(14:36):
If you feel uncomfortable askingsomeone to donate to your organization,
'cause oh, why would they donate?
No, no, no, no.
Then people are not gonna donate becauseyou don't even believe it yourself.
And I know this might sound abit woo woo, but it's so true.
The confidence that you have insaying, Hey, I know that you believe
in this cause and you want tosee this impact in our community.

(14:58):
Well hey.
We're inviting you to participateand to invest in this vision of
society that you want to see.
So sometimes it's about just changingthe wording, the perspective you have on
what fundraising is, and stop thinkingof it as begging people for money.
You're asking them and giving them theopportunity to actually make the change

(15:19):
that they want to see in the world happen.
So I think that's just like amindset shift that needs to happen.
And I hate using these words 'causeit's been so overused, folkies, uh,
you know, life coaches and stuff.
It, it's often seen as.
Blanket statements, but it is reallytrue that nonprofits need to start
believing in themselves more and, andframing it from a confident mindset.

(15:41):
'cause unfortunately, that's notwhat I've been seeing from people
when they're doing their fundraising.
It's very much like, please, we'rein a, an emergency situation.
It's so hard.
Like e every dollar helps, that, thatkind of mindset is just not attractive.
So I think people need to really switchhow they talk about their funding and
how they talk about their impact toinspire people to join inside of like

(16:04):
begging and making people feel badbecause that only has a limited lifespan.
You can do that for a while, butafter, you know, a couple times
people kind of get tired and theyleave that 'cause it's not inspiring.

Annmarie Hylton (16:16):
Yeah.
So, and from a, I guess a, apractical, um, uh, standpoint, like
right now, it's probably mm-hmm.
You know, I don't own a nonprofit,but if I did, and, you know,
I was facing such a situation.
Of what happened in the first sixmonths of this year, I would think that
it's time for an internal revolutionwithin my nonprofit organization.

(16:41):
And what I mean by that is that youhave to, I guess, uh, for lack of better
term, dig deep and dig in and to mm-hmm.
What your, um, you know, what yourtrue heart of your organization is
and what are you really trying to do.
To, I guess, move the needle onwhatever, you know, um, problem

(17:04):
scenario, situation, disease or whateverthat your, um, nonprofit is about.
And, um, in today's climate of,um, how people are, um, let's see.
I guess you would say, uh,it's not even disengagement.
Um, there's a, uh, disbelief and, um.

(17:27):
Collective overwhelm.
Yes.
Yes.
Just everything.
People are just like, ah, yeah.
It's definitely a lot.
Yes.
Right.
Um, that at this point, um, facingall of these things that you now need
to probably go and reinvent yourself.
And so I guess from, uh, um.

(17:50):
You can tell me if I'm wrong, but youprobably have to start even looking, uh,
from even a whole digital aspect, right?
Because everything now is, uh, technicaland that's what I've seen, I guess,
in the field with a lot of nonprofits.
They're, uh, lagging behind inthe, uh, technology, um mm-hmm.
Uh, sector.

(18:10):
So I guess how do they, um, I guess.
Since the title of our, uh,session is Save Themselves.

Katherine Lacefield (18:18):
Yeah.
So.
My, my recommendation for people is alwaysnot to necessarily change or reinvent, but
just to look in and sometimes it's aboutcutting out what's not necessary, focusing
in on what's really important, what arethe programs that have the most impact,
uh, what strategies have worked the most.

(18:40):
If you have certain socialmedia platforms that are just
not getting it, cut them out.
For now, let's focus on whereyour audience is like, mm-hmm.
Cutting down on multiplying yourapproaches, but having strong strategies
for the ones that are already working.
So if you have a strong Facebook, youknow, participation, for example, um.

(19:02):
You should focus on Facebook.
If you are starting your Instagram,you have a couple of people, but not
really invi, like no one's engaging,then like, drop that for now and just
focus on the camp, on the campaignsthat are working for you on the, on
the audiences where your audience is.
Sorry.
Um, from the digital aspect,and I totally understand where
nonprofits are coming from becauseinvesting in technology costs money.

(19:23):
You need to train your staff.
You need to buy the platforms youneed to a, you know, pay these monthly
fees to access a lot of these tools.
Um, and, and no one is excited aboutfunding a social media platform or a CRM.
Like when you ask your donors, Hey, weneed a new CRM, it's gonna cost us $3,000.
Like, no one's gonna be puttingin their dollars for that.
It's not sexy.

(19:44):
And unfortunately, from a funderperspective, there isn't a whole
lot of funders that are also opento investing in capacity building.
Everyone wants to fund the programs.
No one wants to fund the structureand framework that allows those
programs to be successful.
Of course, I say no one,but there are people.
It's just there's very few.
So what I find is really important, that'swhy I am a big fan of monthly giving.

(20:08):
Monthly giving, and individualdonors are often not.
Like earmarked for a certain causeor for a certain program, you can
use those funds for whatever makessense, you have more flexibility.
So building up that strong base ofindividual donors, especially monthly
'cause they give more and for longer,gives you the capacity to be able to

(20:29):
invest in these technological tools.
And also you don't need the fanciest,most shiny tool to start off with.
Um.
If you don't mind, I'll give you alittle case study example of this small
nonprofit in Albania that I work with.
They're an animal shelter thatdidn't have a donation platform.
They were using PayPal and, uh, directbank deposits and email transfers.

(20:54):
They didn't have an, an email network.
They were not sending outemails to anybody, and they
were like, you know what?
This is not working.
We, we, we really need to invest.
So I started working with them prettymuch at the exact same time as we are now.
Last year I set them up on donor box,which is, has a free option to do.
Fundraising.
So it didn't cost them anythingto get their fundraising platform.

(21:16):
We ended up getting the CRMbut were, it wasn't necessary.
Um, so that's one thing.
So that allowed for more peopleto be able to donate easily.
'cause if you look at their websitebefore it was a famous like PNG
image where it says like, donate toPayPal with this name, and here is
our number of our bank account, like.
It adds too many steps forpeople to donate, so that

(21:37):
simplified the process enormously.
Second, we had a list of all thedonors that had given through PayPal,
but it was on PayPal and it didn'tallow us to communicate with them
directly, so we exported all of that.
It was a bit of a time consumingprocess in the beginning.
Unfortunately, PayPal doesn't allow foran easy export, and then we uploaded

(21:58):
those onto an email management platform.
A lot of people are gonna be thinkingMailChimp or all of these other big ones,
but those tend to be very expensive andthey will charge you per new subscriber,
which is annoying, especially fororganizations that are looking to grow.
So what I used is this platform thatI use called Send Fox, which is a
very basic email management tool, butit's 50 USD for lifetime use of it.

(22:21):
Like you won't pay monthly for upto 1,500, or if I'm not mistaken
now, I think it's like 5,000 emails.
Wow.
5,000 emails is a lot like to beable to have 5,000 subscribers.
It'll take you some time, don't worry.
Like you'll get there,hopefully, eventually.
But like, dude, I, I've been buildingup my list for two years and I've

(22:42):
been doing a lot of stuff and I'mat 1,500 active subscribers like.
It takes time.
Of course, nonprofits can growthat faster, but still that's fine.
$50 for that is wonderful.
So with the $50 investment, wehad their fundraising platform, we
had their email, and in our first.
Um, end of your campaign.

(23:03):
So as you said, we launched itin November and then we did it
more specifically in December.
We launched a 12 days of Christmascampaign for the puppies, and we raised,
uh, close to $4,000, which coveredmuch more than the initial investment
they made in the platform, of course.
And we got, I think it wassomething like 15 new monthly donors

(23:24):
covering about 250, $300 a month.
So just by investing in a little bitof technology and setting it up, of
course they, that doesn't include myfees, but they more than uncovered
the cost of investing in technologyand now that those monthly donors
are still giving and what we noticed.
Throughout this year by continuingto build up this audience, we've

(23:47):
now reached $3,000 a month.
Wow.
In monthly giving already.
Oh.
We're at, I think we actually justtaught 3,300, which for a small shelter
in Albania, whose monthly revenueand monthly costs are $8,000, we're
almost covering 50% of their costswith monthly donations in under a year.

(24:07):
So I get it.
It's scary to start something newand I'm not saying it was easy.
We've been, I think we've senta hundred emails in this year.
But we segmented it.
We didn't send the same emails toeveryone, but we've been slowly
building up our database ofdonors and building relationships
and sending stories of impact.
None of the, oh no, this dog isgonna die if you don't donate.

(24:31):
It was.
We're gonna save this dog.
We're doing everything we can to do it.
If you'd like to supporther recovery, donate here.
Here's what she's looking like now.
We've helped her already.
Those stories of inspirational, uh, impactis what has been motivating people to stay
so long story short, oftentimes findingthe right tools is more important than

(24:52):
finding the brightest, shiniest tools.
And there are always alternativesthat are not perfect.
But to start.
It's fine.
And then as you grow up your capacity, asyou have more monthly re regular income,
income coming in, then you can startlooking into, okay, what other tools do
I need next to build this even further?

Annmarie Hylton (25:12):
That's a, that's a great, um, way to look at it, that it's
incremental and that, you know, youdon't just run in there and, uh, take
all the, the shiniest new objects mm-hmm.
That it's okay to, uh,start small and know that.
Um, it'll take time, but you'll get there.
And, uh, the other thing that I likethat you brought up, and I think

(25:34):
it's something that is key for thesetimes, is that the way that you did
the campaign, how you didn't do,um, I think everybody's familiar.
If they, um, you know.
I've, they've been doing it for,I don't know, many, many years, at
least the last 40 years, where theydo the, uh, I'm taking, um, a note

(25:55):
from your animal shelter example.
Um, you, you know, they always showthe sad, poor doggy that hasn't eaten
or that, uh, you know, has an injury.
Um, yes, but I like that youturned it around that Yes.
This dog might be injured, butlook what we've already done.
And so mm-hmm.
Um, you know, just give us, youknow, $5 more and he'll be on his

(26:18):
way running with the other puppies.
Of course, you know, Ijust made that fired up.
But, but, but that is that.
Is a different approach because I thinkit's also goes with the times, right?
Like as we said before,people are overwhelmed, right?

Katherine Lacefield (26:36):
Yeah.
People are already dealingwith a lot of stuff right now.
The last thing we wanna do is make themeven more sad and hating the world.

Annmarie Hylton (26:44):
Yes.
And so taking a different approachand, um, I guess a different
perspective, I guess looking at the,it's not, um, I don't wanna say it's,
uh, just, uh, positive thinking.
There is an element to that, but it'sabout like, how can we fix it or where
are we in the, the change journey?

Katherine Lacefield (27:07):
Mm-hmm.

Annmarie Hylton (27:07):
And so then exactly the solutions.
Yes, the solutions.
And so that.
Will motivate people much betterto be like, okay, they're,
they're like 75% of the way there.
Ah, that's not, that's great.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
That's not too bad.
Only 25% needed to go and finish it.
I can do that, right?
Mm-hmm.
Versus like, you show them like, youknow, the, the, the, uh, you know,

(27:30):
the, the puppy farm has been blownto bits and, and, you know, uh, and
one's dying and we have no more.
Food and electricity isn'tworking right, there's a flood
and you're like, oh my goodness.
Yes.
And it makes everybody wanna just, uh,you know, go back to bed and hide under
the cover and say, I can't do it either.
Exactly, exactly.

(27:51):
So that, yeah.
So that is a, an excellent, um, keyright there is to show where the,
where along the solution line that you.
Stand in order to motivate peopleto, um, want to give more because
they can see that they can, uh,contribute to the end of this problem.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, and.

(28:13):
Go ahead.

Katherine Lacefield (28:14):
No, just that doesn't mean that you can't have emergencies.
So I'll give an example.
For the same animal shelter, we gotthis really horrible case where this
dog was beaten really intensely withsome form of blunt object, and they
thought she was dead and a volunteerfound her and rushed her to the vet,
and she was in really dire conditions.

(28:34):
And they don't have necessarily the.
Constant cash flow to be ableto just cover medical expenses.
So there was an emergency, so ofcourse we shared her story, but we
shared how we're gonna solve theproblem from more than just this dog.
We said, these kinds ofsituations have to stop.
Not only are we gonna try to save thisdog and do everything, but we will

(28:57):
also start the legal procedures tomake a complaint against the person
who did this, who find out who itwas, and to bring them to justice.
So that was also just like.
Bringing it to the next step ofmaking it like, yes, we can save
this dog, but unless we changethe situation and we change the
context, this is gonna happen again.
And there's only so manythat we can actually do.

(29:18):
So I really like that approach.
And of course someone stood up, this is abeautiful story, and said, you know what?
I will cover all of her vet billsat the the new hospital that
she has to be transferred to,and I will adopt her afterward.
So we shared this story with all ofthe donors that had donated like.
Thank you so much.
You allowed us to do the emergencyand now someone's gonna adopt her.
Thank you so much.
Do you know how many newmonthly donors I got from that?

(29:40):
Like how many people were like,we are so proud of the work you're
doing, and we wanna make sure thatthese stories continue to happen.
So it's not about notsharing emergency situations.
Make it inspiring of like, we can do this.
This dog deserves justice.
Let's do this together, not poor us.
Oh no, it's so sad.
Like it's, it's, sometimes it's abouthow we are asking, how we are sharing

(30:03):
these appeals that it's really important,more so than it was an emergency.
And you can say that, butit's about how you frame it.
Um, so that's been somethingthat I've, I find really, really
helpful for people to rethink abouthow they're doing fundraising.
How they're approaching them, the thing.
But what you said about the goals isalso something I wanted to mention.

(30:25):
Having a fundraiser that startsat zero is really not motivating.
So what I suggest to people is to,you usually have like that inner
circle of like your closest donors orpeople that you would feel comfortable
reaching out to, kind of like.
In the behind the curtain typeof thing, behind the scenes.
So you reach out to them individuallyand say, Hey, we have this new campaign

(30:47):
and we need to, I don't know, we need tostart this new program, or we have this
new cohort that needs extra funding.
Uh, we're reaching out to you firstbecause we know that you're our
biggest fans and we want to getinitial buy-in to inspire other people.
Would you be willing to make a donation ofa hundred dollars today to get us started?
And get to that first 25, 30% of yourgoals so that when you're sharing

(31:08):
it publicly, people are like, ohwow, they're already at this much.
That's wonderful.
And they just started today.
And that gives trust.
That gives your audience trust that,okay, other people are donating.
I will follow suit.
It's kind of like that tip jarof the coffee shop if it's empty.
People are much less likely to donatethan if you put in dollar bills.

(31:31):
And if you put in money in it,people are gonna follow soup.
'cause as much as we, I hate to sayit, people follow what other people
do to uh, sometimes it goes forgood, sometimes it goes for bad.
But in this case, it's about gettingpeople to see that other people
are also supporting your cause,and so they'll not be the first.
And I think that's a really importantlesson for everyone listening.

Annmarie Hylton (31:53):
Yes.
So yeah, get, uh, get it going.
And I think that just, you know, um.
People wanted to see action thesedays, I guess you would say.
They wanna see things, things are,things are moving, moving forward.
And so I wanted to ask a little bitof a, I guess a, a personal question,
but then also it ties to your work.

(32:15):
Um, so you work a lot with, uh,animals and environmental causes and
community service, I guess how, um.
I guess why did you choose thoseavenues or did those avenues
choose you and, um, how has thisinfluenced how you do your work?
For sure.

Katherine Lacefield (32:34):
Well.
I started off as kind of more of anenvironmental person, if I could say I
was really interested in the environmentalimpacts of our, uh, on our world.
To be fully honest, I was a bit ofa little witch in the sense of I was
like loved going out and finding theright leaves and the right flowers
and making little like, I don't know.
I was in weird little seances andI thought it was really funny.

(32:56):
I loved spending time out in nature,so it started from the environmental
component, but obviously like mostchildren, I also loved animals.
I love spending time with them.
But then when I started, uh, going to highschool, we had a lot of environment focus
in our school and I started understandingthe connection between taking care of the
environment and taking care of animals.

(33:17):
They're super interconnected and as wemove forward, as I got more and more.
Um, understanding, I startedlearning more about it, like
it's actually all interconnected.
Health is impacted by our environment,the animals conservation, but
also farm animals and how we treatanimals in a lot of industrial,
uh, projects directly affects.

(33:39):
Our own health, our environmentalhealth, our community health, mental
health, like it's all connected.
So that's kind of what Italk about on my own podcast.
And just because podcasts, I talkabout how everything is connected
and we can't separate the two.
But I'm gonna share another story aboutwhy I, I dedicate myself more and more
to animals and to the environment, isthat there's a lot less organizations

(34:01):
defending them than if I could saylike human focused organizations and
Canada in particular, up until 2018.
Defending animals or defending theenvironment or protecting it was not
considered a charitable activity.
So getting your 5 0 1 C3 status sothat you can give out tax receipts
wasn't possible, which made it verydifficult for those organizations to

(34:23):
fundraise to get access to grants,so it was very limiting for them.
So they really needed allthe extra help they wanted.
Uh, when I started fundraising for ananimal rights organization, I was, you
know, those annoying people on the streetsthat go, hi, do you have two seconds
for Greenpeace or Amnesty International,or whatever organization it is?
I did that for five years.
Very tough work, and I was doing itfor animals, and I've been spat on.

(34:47):
Literally spat on by people saying, howdare you be protecting animals when there
are children suffering because of the waror because of this and because of that.
So there's this weird conceptionthat if you defend the environment
or if you protect, you know, animals,it's 'cause you don't like humans
or you don't care about them.

(35:08):
And that is so far from the truth.
But unfortunately in the sector, atleast back then when I was really
getting more and more involved.
There was some truth to that.
I would hear, ugh, I hate humans.
Almost every day when I was working inan animal shelter and there was this
like infighting of like, you're notvegan enough or you're not environmental

(35:29):
enough, you're not eco-friendly enough.
There was so much competition oflike hating people for what they
are doing to what we considered,uh, you know, the natural world.
We were, we were the problem.
But I also like to think and try tohave hope of, we're also the solution.
We're causing maybe the problems,but we're also very intelligent.
We can also find solutions, lookat all the people fighting every

(35:50):
day for all of these causes,like how many nonprofits exist.
Like that gives me hope thatthere are great people out there
and we need to have that hope.
So the combination of.
The fact that they were muchmore difficult to defend.
I like a challenge.
Second of all, I love animals.
My two puppies are my babies.
I would do anything for my dogs.

(36:11):
And the fact that they're allconnected, but they get less attention
and less support made me be moreand more of an advocate for them.
So in a nutshell, that'smy, that's my little story.

Annmarie Hylton (36:23):
Wow.
And, you know, uh, youbrought to light something.
I think I've, I've seen, but,uh, you know, never really took
a deep look at of, um, kind ofthis internal hierarchy mm-hmm.
Within the nonprofit, uh, realm of howpeople look at, you know, what causes it.
You're defending, you know, I thinkall, all people would be like, oh,

(36:44):
after, you know, defending war zones.
Like, whoa, number one, you know,like, yeah, war children, goodness.
You know, like, oh my gosh, right?
Like, uh, yeah.
You know?
Um, and, and they look at, you know, ifyou're, uh, in the, I guess you would say.
Um, that is like the ultimate.
And then, you know, move down to like,uh, maybe at the very bottom, you're,

(37:07):
you talk about defending the soil, right?
Uh, pun worms and not worm.
Worm or worms.
Worms would probably

Katherine Lacefield (37:14):
be very low down that list or.
Ex-convicts or drug addicts?
Yes, yes.
Things like, or things like,there's a lot of people that
are seen as it's their fault.
Mm-hmm.
Then that also leads to, so it makes,it's a very unsexy cause to defend.
It's very hard to defenda lot of those causes.

Annmarie Hylton (37:34):
Yes.
And so.
You know, in these times where, youknow, we have, uh, uh, I would say
just globally, yes, the us, uh, isprobably the leader in it because
we have, um, you know, uh, what I'llcall a show that goes on every day of

(37:54):
what, you know, breaking news, whathappened, what happened now, um, but.
Globally, we are very polarized.
And so mm-hmm.
For a nonprofit to nonprofit world to bepolarized, the people who are supposed
to be the helpers, um, you know, that is,uh, I guess heartbreaking and problematic.

(38:18):
At the same, at the same time.
Yes.
And so.
I guess that's another thing that,uh, if I were to deduct, um, from
what you're saying that really thatnonprofits, um, need to focus on in
these times is not being polarizingwith their own cause of thinking.

(38:40):
Um, in a hierarchical, if Icould make that word mm-hmm.
A word, uh, a level, um, because we.
We are all on the same ball.

Katherine Lacefield (38:54):
Yeah, we really are.
Yes.
You're never gonna invite peopleto your party if you're an val.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Like that's what I don'tnever understood about.
Oh, I get it.
I was a crazy vegan addict activist.
Like anyone that says like, doyou like talking with vegans?
Are probably gonna say no becausethere can be annoying as hell.

(39:14):
But it's because they care somuch, but it, and it comes from
a good place, I understand that.
But I understood that by judging peopleand criticizing people constantly
and attacking people, like it didnot bring more people to my table.
It did not bring more people andwant to have conversations with me.
And funny enough, theyactually did a study.

(39:36):
Lytics, amazing organization thatdoes, uh, they study and they do
research on, uh, the animal welfaremovement, but not from like a,
which animal is like most abused.
It was really just like whattactics and what strategies work?
Best organizations.
And they did a study where theycompared the behavioral change, um.
Of people between differenttypes of strategies.

(39:59):
So they would show like more ofa neutral like editorial article,
which discussed the pros and cons ofindustrial agriculture, for example.
That was more, um, it wasn't like anattack, and then they showed videos
of people, let's say, going intoa Burger King, calling everyone a
murderer and like making a scene.

(40:21):
Then they, they actually interviewedthese people before and then after
being in front of these different typesof, of tactics and what they noticed
was the, like, attack focused, ornot gonna say rioting, but like, uh.
I don't know how to even describeit, but it was a specific
word, but you know what I mean?
Like those more like in yourface, uh, judging people

(40:45):
and like calling people out.
Disruptive.
Mm-hmm.
Disruptive strategies.
Not only did it not changeanyone's behavior for better, on
average, it made people worse.
So people that way, let's say meateaters would say, I've been eating more
meat because that affected me so much.
I wanted to go in the opposite direction.

(41:06):
So if we're thinking about what'sactually best for our cause and not for
our ego of wanting to feel like we'rebetter than the other people because
we're doing so much better because we'redoing X, Y, Z, you're actually pushing
people away into the opposite direction.
So why do we keep on doing it?
We've actually noticed that otherforms of education that are maybe

(41:26):
less catchy or maybe not gonna getas much views on Facebook, but you're
actually gonna start changing behavior.
Isn't that what we want?
So it's something, it's areflection to think about.
Like are we trying to just get attention?
And I get it in the age of social media.
We want likes, we wantshares, we want visibility.
And we think that all visibilityis good, but it's not necessarily.

(41:48):
So I'll leave you with that reflectionlisteners of what strategies you
use to attract people to yourcause can actually be worsening
everything and not making it better.

Annmarie Hylton (41:59):
Yes, that's, you know, I would say that is the call
and maybe, well, I don't know, Iwon't try to jump into, um, our, our
administration's head, but, um, soI'll just throw that out right now.
Um, but, um, you know that,especially in these times, right?

(42:20):
It's like, um.
Maybe the challenge that's on thetable to the nonprofit world is
about how to be a above the smog.
And, and that's difficult because, youknow, you have to look into it, but,

(42:42):
um, pulling your organization out of it.
Um, and what I mean by the smog, ofcourse, is all the, the political and
not getting, uh, torn to the left orto the right, but to be true to the.
The goodness of your cause and, andto present it in a respectful manner
that realizes there are these, youknow, extremes and then there's

(43:05):
still the people in the middle.
Um, and present it in a, in a way.
So that is that, I would saythat's the, the challenge of
the nonprofit world right now.
Right?
Because there's so many issues.
And there's so many things that peopleare dealing with, and then there's so
many, like, you know, um, uh, ways thatpeople are thinking politically, um, so

(43:28):
many ways people are, you know, dealingeconomically, all these things, right?
And so you have to, as the nonprofitnow, um, I guess try to be, you know.
As they would say, uh, um, you know,uh, be kind of, um, the, the better
person in the matter, which is hard.

Katherine Lacefield (43:50):
Yay.
It's very hard.
And that's where ego comes in, right?
It's about, okay, governments willcome and go and there's only so
much we can do to control that, but.
We can focus on the values that uniteus instead of what differentiates us of
like, well, unlike our right people onthe right, or unlike those on the left,

(44:13):
we believe like instead of creatingmore division like as a nonprofit, we
have to think about the more peoplethat join our movement, the more people
that can find something that theyunderstand and that they believe in and
that they value an organization, thestronger we will be and the more it's.
S like sustainable, you'll be in the longterm because like I said, like political
change, like won't happen overnight.

(44:33):
You're not gonna be able toconvince someone to completely
change their, their ideology.
You might get them to understandthat, you know, you, this is
not a political organization.
If you're a political organization,that's a different story, sorry.
But if you're a, a charitable organizationor defending the environment or whatever
it is, stop making it political whenyou're talking to your audience.

(44:54):
I think that can greatly helpyou increase your audience.
And that's where it's a problem now,is that everyone's getting involved.
And I get it.
It's 'cause the governmentis affecting, um.
It's affecting your,your, your income streams.
It's affecting your funding, butthe people are not the ones making
those decisions necessarily.
And if they don't agree with what youdo, then okay, you can't have them all.

(45:16):
Everyone has different, differentcauses that they care about.
And like the man who's fat at me and toldme, how dare I be protecting animals like.
I get it.
Like what's happening at the time,it was the war in Syria was horrible.
And I understand where he is comingfrom and I said, look, you don't
know what I do on my weekends.
Maybe I'm also different.
The children in Syria, you don't know.

(45:38):
And so we had to stop judgingand assuming that people won't
care and you'll be surprised.
By who will actually show up when you areopen to having conversations that are a
bit more challenging, but understandinglike, what do you care about people?
And before, like, just before wemove on, I'd love to share this story
about one of our donors at the SPA.

(45:58):
So the animal rights organizationI was working at, uh, he had signed
our petition, we had this list.
So we were doing fo follow up callsto, you know, convert people who
had signed petitions into donors.
And I called this guy, his name was Roger.
And we started having a conversation.
It's like, oh yeah, my, my wifeforced me to sign that petition.
And I was like, oh, wellyou have a lovely wife.
Uh, I'd love to meet her.

(46:19):
One day we started joking aroundand we said, well, you know what,
like I have a problem with some ofthese animal rights organizations.
'cause like I work in the dairyindustry and like I feel, uh, like
I don't have a place in there.
I feel kind of like ahypocrite of wanting to defend.
I was like, listen, everyonehas their place to play.
We started having aconversation and he is like.
It's not to say I don't disagreewith some of the things that are
happening in the dairy industry.

(46:39):
So we had a really great conversationabout the pitfalls of industrial
agriculture and he ended up understandingand agreeing and I said, I get it.
Like it's not gonna disappearovernight, but like we're just trying
to improve it slowly and slowly.
And in the end he is like, you know what?
This was great.
Like he made a $50 donation.
Like I'm not seeing that change the world.

(47:01):
But then of course six months laterhe made another $50 donation and then
eventually he became a monthly donor.
And like, I like to think that allowinghim to be who he was, even if that
wasn't the animal rights ideal,allowed him to enter the world and
feel accepted anyway and start to maybethink differently about how we are
changing the, the world for animals.

(47:21):
So I think that goes to show when you showup with more patience, acceptance, and
understanding of others, and listen more.
I think we can have a lot moreimpact on our communities than
if we show up and just think weknow it all because we don't.

Annmarie Hylton (47:38):
Yeah, and I like that also, that story
shows that you can, you can, uh.
You can, um, be doing one thing and thinkanother thing and you know, you can,
uh, agree on some elements, but not all.
'cause right now we have the thing thatyou have to be like, if you agree with A,
you can't think of anything and B. Right.

(47:58):
Exactly.
It's a very

Katherine Lacefield (48:00):
extreme And no one is, no one is black or white.
Right.
Right.
It's not this like oneextreme or the other.
Like we have a bit of everythingin us and I think it just.
It just makes

Annmarie Hylton (48:11):
people crazy.
Geez.
Yes and yes.
And I think that is, you know, and, andthat speaks, you know, not only for the
nonprofit world, but just everything ingeneral that we need to understand Uhhuh.
There is, yeah.
There's.
Uh, we need to, I guess one of the,the biggest lessons is we've gotten to
a point that there's no give and take.

(48:31):
That's all.
Just like one or the other.
You give it or you take it.
Yeah.

Katherine Lacefield (48:36):
It's, it's just, it's not sustainable and
it's just, uh, it's realistic and.
We get put into these boxes andthese, that's why I hate it, but
all these, these labels that we slapon ourselves of I'm this, I'm that.
Like, no, you're not, you're so,you're such a complexity of things
that you can't, even the votingsystem, like it doesn't make sense.

(48:58):
Like you can't be a hundred percent inagreeance with one party or the other.
Like, anyways, whatever.
That's to get not into politics too much.
But the same applies to nonprofitswhere, you know, you might.
Let's say from an animal rightsperspective, like you might be more
on the side of like, we believethat dogs and cats, okay, you're
on the domestic animal side.
Okay, cool.
That's your perspective.

(49:19):
You're gonna play a great role in that.
And you might be on the other sidethat it's like, I don't even think
we should have pets, but I think thatwe shouldn't exploit any animals.
Everyone has a different perspectiveof how it shows up and there's not
really absolute right or wrong ingeneral, like it's about finding how
all of them together play into a veryinteresting perspective of the world.

Annmarie Hylton (49:38):
Yes.
And you know, you, you bring up a, a,a solid point that I think this is the
change that nonprofits have to face.
Like right now, uh, I would say this isthe, the look in the mirror and mm-hmm.
It's the time to examine your.

(49:58):
Nonprofit worldview, um, and to openup your mind to the possibilities.
Like nonprofits, a lot of times theyremind me kind of like, uh, um, uh,
elementary schools and why I say thatand why I say that, you know, there's
a time for lunch, there's a time forthis, and you know, there's like.

(50:19):
You know, a, a rigidway of, uh, of thinking.
But that doesn't work in these timesbecause, you know, literally every
day you wake up, there's some newthing that's like, oh, this hit.

Katherine Lacefield (50:32):
Yeah.
Right.
So it's changing too fast.
Right.
Our world is changing too fast.
Right.
You can even just AI.
But can anyone now imaginetheir, like, without ai?
Right?
Right.
And like, what was it a couple years ago,no one had heard of Chad g pt, right?
No one was using ai and nowit's like people don't even
know how to live without it.
Yes.

Annmarie Hylton (50:52):
Yeah.
It's crazy.
And so, and so that is, I think thatis what's facing nonprofits is that
they, yeah, you have to, you haveto shift your, your mind's frame.
Also stay true to who you are.
It's a very difficult, tight rope.
And so I'm not denying that because, um,yeah, it's like, uh, I guess the question

(51:13):
nonprofits have to ask themselves tomove forward successfully is who are we?
And, you know, what is it, what'sour place in the world at this time?
And how do we still achieve wherewe want to go or how we want to see
this, you know, change in the world.
So very a, a very, yeah, verydifficult and challenging time.

(51:36):
But, um, yes, I would say take itas a time of looking in the mirror.
And then, um, uh, I guess to touch ona question for yourself, but also for
nonprofits, because of all the, theturmoil and, you know, chaos that.
Has unfolded, um, this year.

(51:57):
Um, how are you, or how are you suggestingto nonprofits to avoid a burnout
or just like being like, I give up?

Katherine Lacefield (52:06):
Mm-hmm.
Well, first of all, I. Um, rest ifyou can, but I get that's a very
easy statement for many people.
They're like, yeah, okay.
Good luck with that.
I work full time and domy nonprofit on the side.
Well, I think collaborations andpartnering with people is a great
way to lessen the burden, and Ithink a lot of nonprofits started

(52:27):
that shouldn't have in the sense of.
So many nonprofits that already exist.
I think a lot of times wedidn't need another nonprofit.
You could have instead started workingwith a nonprofit or maybe done some
other initiative without having thewhole headache of managing a nonprofit.
There's especially like justthinking from an animal perspective.
Do you know how manyanimal rescues there are?
It is insane.

(52:49):
Uh, I think supporting each otherand collaborating and working with
other nonprofits can really helpshare, uh, resources, um, support
each other and feel less alone.
I also have a, a great toolkit,uh, that I have that is all of my
favorite tools that can really help.
Like just something like Calendly hassaved me so much time, and I'm sure you

(53:11):
agree with like from booking podcastepisodes, like having the ability to
just be like, okay, sure, let's meet.
Book a time on my calendar.
Instead of spending those who knowshow long or sending each other
emails, then remembering to send thelink and put it in your calendar.
Like find tools that will help youremove the annoying, repetitive
tasks from your docket so that youcan focus on the important work.

(53:31):
And I get it in the beginning.
Start with one big problem at a time.
Don't try to do them all.
So if you wanna help automate something.
Try to find a tool thatwill help you automate it.
There's a lot of free ones out there.
There's a lot of tools that can helpyou to remove those boring tasks.
Don't, don't try to remove theimportant ones or the ones that

(53:53):
drive you and that you love.
Remove the ones that are boringand annoying, and like I said
earlier, only focus on the.
The strategies that are workingfor you right now and try to
minimize the ones that are not.
So instead of doing a mailing campaignand an email campaign and a social
media campaign, like which one hadthe highest return on investment?

(54:13):
Okay, well then let's focus on that.
If your events are not.
Bringing in much more money than thetime and effort that you're putting in.
Stop doing events.
Like there's things that youcan do to cut that is not
efficient and focus on what is.
And you'll see a higher return oninvestment for your same amount of
energy, which will obviously allow youto have that space and time to regroup,

(54:37):
to breathe, and to take the rest we need.
'cause we all need it.
We all try to do everything.
It's not sustainable and we know it.
We just dunno how to get out of it.

Annmarie Hylton (54:47):
Yes.
And, um, in conclusion, I guess, uh, whatis another, uh, I guess, uh, self-help,
um, as, uh, nonprofits prepare notonly to finish this season, but in, to
step into, um, another unpredictableyear as all years are unpredictable?

(55:08):
Um, 2026.
Um, that's so wild to say that 2026.
Um, I know, uh, what's, uh, I guess onebook or, um, you know, obviously your
podcast, uh, the just, uh, uh, becausepodcast, but, um, but, uh, what's one
book or resource that you feel that,uh, has influenced you greatly lately

(55:31):
or that you would highly recommend to,uh, nonprofits as they start a new year?

Katherine Lacefield (55:36):
Oof.
Um.

Annmarie Hylton (55:39):
Hmm,

Katherine Lacefield (55:40):
there's so many.
Um, my one recommendation and it's,it's, it's gonna be a very vague one,
but if you're not on LinkedIn yet, geton LinkedIn as a professional, you can
really expand your network and get help.
I have never had a community as.
Generous with sharing resources, tools,examples, and showing up for coffee chats.

(56:06):
Just to shoot the shitto, let's be honest here.
Sometimes you just needto talk with someone else.
Um, I find that, thatthat's been really great.
And another resource that I recommend,it's called the nonprofit Hive.
I can send you the link and Ray ifyou want, and you can share with them.
It's a free platform that allows you toconnect one-on-one with other nonprofit
leaders from around the world if youchoose, like what kind of conversations

(56:29):
you wanna have, what sector you're in.
And Tasha, the founder, does an amazingjob at connecting you with great people.
I have met clients, I havemet organizations that I
now donate to and support.
I've met colleagues that I now work with.
I have met so many amazing people.
It's really made me feel less aloneand allowed me to feel like I have

(56:51):
other people that have my back.
So those would be my two.
LinkedIn, if you're more into social mediaor if you want more of like a one-on-one
face-to-face interaction, I would saythe nonprofit Hive is a great place
to start to, um, build up your networkand start building a community around.

Annmarie Hylton (57:08):
Fantastic.
Thank you Katherine, foryour time and insight.
To learn more about Katherine Lacefield.
GoTo, just because do consulting, ifyou have a passion for an unserved
community, a social justice problem,or wanna change minds contact project.
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(57:29):
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