February 28, 2025 • 51 mins
Exploring the Future: Sustainable Development Goals and Foresight Thinking with Cat Tully
In this episode of the Project Good Podcast, host Annmarie Hylton interviews Cat Tully, founder of the School of International Futures (SOIF). The discussion focuses on the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) for 2030, their current progress, and the challenges ahead. Tully shares insights on futures and foresight thinking, the importance of intergenerational collaboration, and the need for systemic changes to address complex global issues. They explore the relevance of the SDGs in today's turbulent world and discuss how future thinking can inspire positive change at local, national, and global levels. Listeners are encouraged to get involved and become active participants in shaping a better future.
00:00 Introduction to Project Good Podcast
00:27 Understanding the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs)
01:27 Meet Our Esteemed Guest: Cat Tully
02:56 The Importance of Futures Thinking
21:28 Exploring Intergenerational Connections
26:00 The Role of Local Communities in Achieving SDGs
36:32 Global Political Shifts and Their Impact
44:56 Inspiring Projects and Final Thoughts
50:54 Conclusion and Call to Action
Guest Bio: Cat Zuzarte Tully leads the School of International Futures (SOIF), a not-for-profit international collective of practitioners based in the UK who use futures thinking to inspire change at the local, national and global levels. SOIF has worked with organisations like the UN, Omidyar, NATO, the Royal Society and national governments to make the world fairer for current and future generations. SOIF also supports a growing network of Next Generation Foresight Practitioners. Previously, Cat served as Strategy Project Director at the UK Foreign Office and as Policy Advisor in the Prime Minister’s Strategy Unit. She is a non-resident fellow at the US Government Accountability Office’s Center for Strategic Foresight and a member of the Advisory Committee of the Chilean Council of Foresight and Strategy. Cat’s mission is to inspire individuals, communities, organisations and governments to reinvigorate democracy by designing, scaling and embedding a range of innovations incorporating thinking about the future.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Annmarie Hylton (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Project Good Podcast.
(00:02):
I'm your host, Annmarie Hylton.
Project Good is a social impact podcastinterviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is to inspirepeople and organizations to develop a
mindset that can move others to positiveaction regarding the complex social
(00:23):
issues facing people and the planet.
In this episode, we're focusing onthe Sustainable Development Goals,
or SDGs, for 2030 and where theworld stands in achieving them.
The SDGs are a universal call toaction to end poverty, protect
the planet, and ensure that allpeople enjoy peace and prosperity.
(00:44):
The 17 goals, along with 169 targets,were adopted by the United Nation member
states in 2015 as part of the 2030Agenda for Sustainable Development.
The 17 goals cover a wide range ofissues including poverty, hunger, health,
education, gender equality, climatechange, and sustainable development.
(01:04):
The SGGs are based on the principlesof leaving nobody behind and
promoting sustainable developmentthat balances economic, social,
and environmental dimensions.
The SGGs were intended to be implementedby all countries, both developed and
developing, working in global partnership.
The SGGs are intendedto be achieved by 2030.
(01:27):
Today I have esteemed guestCatarina Zuzarte Tully.
known as Cat Tully, who's the founderof the School of International
Futures, or SOIF, and from over here.
Cat leads the School of InternationalFutures, a not for profit international
collective of practitioners basedin the UK who use future thinking
(01:49):
to inspire change at the local,national, and global levels.
SOIF has worked with organizationslike the UN, Omniar, Night, NATO,
the Royal Society, and nationalgovernments to make the world fairer
for current and future generations.
CILF also supports a growing network ofnext generation foresight practitioners.
(02:11):
Previously, Cat served as strategyproject director at the UK Foreign
Office and as policy advisor inthe Prime Minister's Strategy Unit.
She is a non resident fellow at the U. S.Government Accountability Cat's office,
Center for Strategic Foresight, and amember of the Advisory Committee for the
Chilean Council of Foresight and Strategy.
(02:32):
Cat's mission is to inspire individuals,communities, organizations, and
governments to reinvigorate democracyby designing, scaling, and embedding
a range of innovations incorporatingthinking about the future.
Let's get into the interview.
(02:56):
It's 2015, and the year has startedoff running with shocking speeds of
change to policies, wars, humanitarianaid, environmental tragedies.
We need to face reality now anddecide who and what we want to
be in the future on this planet.
After our youth, most of us knowthat time passes by quickly.
(03:17):
And before you know it, years have gone byand you're left wondering, what happened?
Although many plans have been putin place for the future through
the SDGs for 2030, only about lessthan 16 percent are progressing.
The 17 goals are 1.
No poverty 2.
Zero hunger 3.
Good health and well being 4.
(03:38):
Quality education 5.
Gender equality 6.
Clean water and sanitation 7.
Affordable and clean energy 8.
Decent work and economic growth 9.
Industry Innovation and infrastructure,10, reduced inequalities, 11, sustainable
cities and communities, 12, responsibleconsumption and production, 13,
climate action, 14, life below water,15, land on, life on land, 16, peace,
(04:04):
justice, and strong institutions,and 17, partnerships for the goals.
Cat Tully's organization works toput strategy to all of this chaos
so that organizations, governments,and people can achieve what
they need to for a better world.
Her work applies deep understandingof futures, people, and systems,
(04:24):
something we need more now than ever.
Welcome, Cat.
Hi,
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (04:30):
Anna Marie.
It's such a pleasure to be on your show.
Thank you very much.
Annmarie Hylton (04:34):
Yes, I'm so excited about this discussion because, as I just
said, we need this more now than ever.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (04:42):
We are.
Oh, yes.
Annmarie Hylton (04:45):
I just, I don't know, I just, the last, I can't believe that
it's only the beginning of the year andso much has, like, uh, happened, it's,
it's left me just, The speechless, uh,not only myself, but just, uh, I think
a lot of people don't know what, whichdirection to run, what to think, um,
(05:08):
uh, you know, it's just, it's a shocker.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (05:13):
Yes.
It certainly feels that we are at a, acrossroads and, uh, some very, Serious
changes are happening in the next year.
Annmarie Hylton (05:22):
Yes.
And so, um, before we dive deep intothe, the chaos that we find ourselves
in, I always like to find out alittle bit of personal information
about the person that I interview.
Um, and so, I wanted to know, um, withall of the work and, um, projects that
you've been part of, what is it that youhave found, I guess, that, uh, drives
(05:45):
you or, um, inspires you to continue?
Thank you.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully: That's a great question. (05:50):
undefined
I think that of the work that we do,when I look at the array of people
that we work with, the countries thatwe're engaging in, um, the thing that
inspires me is the Next Generation FullSite Practitioner community that started
eight years ago and now has about over athousand people from a hundred countries.
(06:10):
And they're all, you know, I lovethe word that you use, changemakers.
They're all changemakers.
Playing with time, using strategicforesight to drive change in their
societies and their communities andtheir governments, whether it's Namathai
in Zimbabwe advocating for the nextgeneration, um, in her community,
(06:31):
or whether it's Amara in Sri Lanka,looking at how you engage, um, across
different, uh, religious groups.
all the way through to Raya in theUAE, who's just started this new
school of humanity, which is anonline school, uh, high school, uh,
teaching kids the kind of skills thatyou really need for the 21st century.
(06:54):
So it's that kind of, if you like,force multiplier role that we have,
where it's the work that people in thecommunity and networks that we run.
And how they've been able to use foresightto find a power base from which to kind
of really influence and drive change.
So that, I think, is the thing thatmakes me most excited and most hopeful
(07:17):
in otherwise what can feel quite agrim and overwhelmingly difficult time.
Annmarie Hylton (07:25):
Yes.
I love that.
That you, I guess I wouldsay, I was thinking about, um.
I guess, uh, planting a seed in peopleand being able to see it, um, grow or
maybe even trans, um, uh, like transforminto something, um, that becomes,
uh, I guess more than they expected.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (07:45):
Um.
Absolutely.
And at the moment that we're in wherethere's a lot of destruction of knowledge,
a lot of destruction of organizations andof relationships, um, that concept of.
being really clear about whatare the seeds that one wants to
protect and where to put them.
So when the land is more fertile andthe conditions are, are better, key
(08:10):
things that we hold and know now canthen flourish in the future is I think
a really, really helpful analogy andactually helps understand why futures
thinking, which often people think isbeing like, Oh, tell me about scenarios
in 2050, uh, might help actually bring tolife why futures thinking is so important
(08:31):
literally in the here and the now.
Often when.
We feel that the house is on fire.
Annmarie Hylton (08:37):
Yes.
And I was thinking of two questions atonce, but I think for the audience, maybe
we have to explain, I guess, what isfutures thinking and foresight thinking?
Um, so that they understand, becauseI think, you know, um, when people
always like, you know, uh, just sortof what you mentioned to think about
the future, they're always thinkinglike a crystal ball or like somebody
(08:58):
that's You know, or, uh, a NotreDame or, or something of that sort.
Um, and so, uh, I guess explain what, what
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (09:07):
is it?
Yes.
Well, what it isn't is prediction.
We are absolutely not sayingthat, uh, you can actually say
now what is going to happen.
And it's also pretty much unhelpful.
to put probabilities around whatyou think is going to happen.
But in a world where things are uncertain,where generations have got very different
(09:31):
values, where demography is changing,where geopolitics and emerging technology
is changing the world in which we'rein, often very, very quickly, it is very
helpful To go, well, actually next yearin five years time and 10 years time,
it's not going to be the same as today.
So when we're making decisions,let's have a systematic way
(09:55):
of exploring how those, that.
those different futures might look like.
So what you're often doing isunderstanding the drivers of change.
You're often understanding and questioningyour assumptions about what might happen.
And what you're often doing isputting alternative, um, views
of the future on the table.
(10:16):
So you can kind of stress test and beresilient for alternative possibilities.
Um, so again, one of the.
Uh, as well as being asked whetheryou've got a crystal ball, one of
the, um, misapprehensions peopleoften have is that, you know, that
the future, uh, is about, foresightis actually about the future.
(10:37):
It's actually not, it's aboutreframing what is possible today.
And in particular, opening up newpossibilities by asking what ifs.
and really questioning some of thoseassumptions that we, we take for granted.
So that's the, that's the fieldthat we work with and it's often at
three levels, it's, um, a mindset.
(10:59):
So thinking about how the futuremight change is something that
you can do as an individual.
It's what we do when we buy ahouse or start planning in our
organizations for the future.
Or if we come together and discusswhat might, you know, what's going
to be the kind of jobs that yourchildren will have in the future.
These are all things that we donaturally, but you know, futures
(11:19):
literacy as an individual.
can be quite helpful to think, well,actually let's be a little bit more
systematic about how we look forsignals of change in the future.
Uh, and do that.
You also can do futures and foresightat the project or intervention level.
So you come together to, for example,say, well, what's the kind of context
(11:40):
of the U S that change makers.
Who are progressives lookingto drive change around social
justice and racial equality?
What are the different scenariosthat might be playing out over
the next five to 10 to 15 years?
Yes, of course, the most immediatething on our minds are the political,
uh, changing political context, butclimate change, emerging technology,
(12:04):
that's all going to play as well.
So.
Let's be prepared and think about thosepossibilities, um, and do so together so
we can share our knowledge and perhapsorientate ourselves to being able to
build capabilities and, um, plans thatare a little bit more resilient to the
future as well as shape where we can.
(12:25):
But then you also have futures andforesight at the kind of systemic
level where we can come togetherand go, well, you know, what
is the futures that we want to.
Create together and how do we make surethat we move towards that as a society.
So those are the threethings that we work on.
And I hope that gives you a littlebit of a, uh, a pocket introduction
(12:46):
to futures and foresight.
Annmarie Hylton (12:48):
Yes.
You know, I was, I was, uh, since Ithinking pictures I was thinking of, uh,
because of where we find ourselves, Iwas thinking that, uh, you know, futures
in foresight is like, uh, preparing yourbackpack for climbing the Himalayas.
And, you know, um, you know, uh, planningout your, your trip and having, you know,
(13:09):
enough food, uh, you know, preparingfor if you're, somebody's going to get
injured, if somebody says, I don't, youknow, your, your, your walking partner
says, I don't want to walk anymore,being able to continue so you can, um,
you know, uh, keep going, uh, plan for,you know, whatever weather conditions,
Uh, so you, you know, wait, you don'tdie or, or something, wrapping the
(13:31):
right boots and then also, you know,preparing for the good things like,
you know, having the right cameraso you can say, look, we made it.
Um, so, um, so, you know, that's, youknow, if I were going to give a visual
interpretation to, um, what you do,that's what I would say that it is.
And, um, and I'm picking the Himalayas.
(13:52):
Uh, on purpose, because, you know,it's something that lots of people want
to do, but, you know, um, probably,you know, it's not for everybody and
can be terrifying to get to the top.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (14:06):
Well, I think that's a lovely analogy.
It is definitely, you know, it'sthe journey analogy is really
good because like, you oftenknow where you want to go to.
But like, you know, that you need to beprepared for it and you need to know that
actually things are going to shift on theway, you know, you might accidentally take
the wrong journey, or there may be storms.
And so being able to kind ofshift and actually still go to
(14:31):
where you want to go, but actuallyrespond to changing environment.
Yes, that's exactly what.
This area of work helps you do
Annmarie Hylton (14:40):
yes.
And so, you know, um, andspeaking of, of shifts.
So originally, when we, we start talkingabout the sustainable development
goals, they were developed in 2015.
And when we go back and look.
Uh, you know, 10 years ago, um, life wasquite different, um, you know, which is
(15:01):
expected, you know, time, time changesthings, but even I would say maybe we
were very hopeful because of, of, uh,I guess how, how people were thinking
back in 2015, um, I guess, You know,we, we, a plan was created, but I guess
(15:23):
I'll just ask the obvious question.
Is this plan realistic anymore?
Uh, well,
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (15:31):
that's a, that's a great question.
I mean, I think the visionis still relevant, right?
This vision, vision for a desirablefuture out to 2030, which was, you know,
intended to be a scaffolding, if you like,around which we can all in our own ways,
kind of coordinate our action to this.
really quite inspiring global storyof, of the kind of world that we want
(15:56):
to all live in, which is a peaceful,um, fair, uh, sustainable world
where we don't leave people behind.
Um, and that was aninterdependent and universal.
Um, and an inclusive vision, right?
Um, that, that still remains, uh, anaspirational and inspirational vision.
(16:21):
The question is, you know, especiallyafter COVID, and especially given the kind
of dynamics that we're living through atthe moment, it feels as if we're not only
far away from it, but moving away from it.
So the big question is, do we want tostill commit to that kind of vision?
Because we're going to have to startglobally rethinking what comes after
(16:43):
it in 2030, that is if the UN remainsrelevant, but in as well, it's like,
well, what do we think is actuallyhappening at the moment and is.
Some of the turbulence that we're livingthrough actually a symptom of a moment of
change and that that moment of change thatwe're in at the moment actually provides
(17:05):
almost a launch pad and opportunityfor driving the kind of radical shifts
and change that is going to be actuallynecessary to achieve that vision.
So yes, I'll leave it there, but itfeels as if we're very far indeed.
But as a kind of inspirational NorthStar, it feels more relevant than ever.
Annmarie Hylton (17:30):
Yes, um, we are, I guess you'd say, in a extremely
critical time, but, you know, andyou brought up one of the issues
that I think, you know, obviouslychanged the world, um, was COVID.
But I think COVID, not only because,of course, uh, people were ill, and it,
It is, um, when you, I'm just going tokind of go a little bit, uh, woo woo,
(17:54):
but when you're ill, um, you know,the, the, the main focus, of course,
is you have to think about yourselfand get, you know, uh, get better.
And I think one of the effects ofCOVID for the people who are, you
know, still remaining, um, here onthe planet is that it made people.
Maybe, I guess, more selfish in away because they were faced with the
(18:18):
possibility of looking at, um, their,their death, like we were all going to die
anyways, but then it became very like, uh,you know, in your face because millions of
people were, you know, uh, dropping off ofthe, the planet, um, and, and sometimes,
you know, daily, um, and, and so it madepeople, I think, think, you know, well,
(18:43):
you know, I have to be concerned aboutme and perhaps I guess the driving factor
is that it changed how people maybe,maybe think about themselves and society.
I don't know.
What do you, do you think that thatwas a big, um, uh, I guess, uh, a
factor of, you know, people kindof, uh, their minds changed after
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (19:07):
COVID.
So I think that's a great observationthat you've made, which is that there's
mixed messages out there, right?
How do you make sense of them?
So I would, how I would respond tothe, the kind of the evidence and the
signals that you've laid out is thaton the one hand, actually, I would say
that there's a lot of indicators tosay that, you know, cohesion, kindness.
(19:32):
solidarity actually came to the fore.
If you look at the amount of peoplethat actually stayed at home, it was
a huge intergenerational kindness.
Like kids who stayed at home, likecompromising their education in
service of protecting older people.
People were, there were incredibleacts of kindness at the individual
community, family level, um, whichI think is really inspiring and
(19:57):
important to kind of connect to.
Um, I, I do think what kind of explainsa lot of the phenomenon that you're
very rightly pointing out is thatwhat it showed is that our governing
mechanisms were totally out of whackand totally unsuited to kind of
address the issues that faced us.
So I think that what it showed is.
(20:19):
And I think that is an interesting aspectof the moment that we're in, is that the
institutional structures, especially ourgoverning processes that were designed
since the end of the Second World War,you know, over these past 70 years have
become more and more out of touch withthe realities of how we live our life,
(20:40):
technology, economic realities, ourvalues, and, you know, They need to be
deeply and radically refreshed and changedand that's the, that's I think the, the
question and the, and what COVID hasreally brought to the fore and I think
the question about the moment that we'rein is, you know, is this, we're at a
(21:04):
moment of, of both the old order dying.
But also a new order being reborn that canbe shaped and, and what happens now feels
like a really, these are, this, these are,this is a year and coming up few years
where things are very plastic and where.
(21:24):
Things are very much up for being shaped.
Annmarie Hylton (21:28):
Yes, and in, in that, I guess, in the shaping of that, um, I,
I, I think, especially here, because,uh, you know, I'm, I'm here in the U.
S., and we have, it's, uh, uh, I guessyou would say it's a, a conflict of, um,
thoughts and, and generations, right?
Um, because we have in our, our,Our administration right now, we
(21:52):
have somebody is coming from anolder, um, uh, older times, um, in
the U. S. where it was different.
It wasn't, uh, we didn't have, obviously,uh, this much technology and, um, I
guess I'll make a little bit more fun.
Maybe the youth were morecontrollable back then.
(22:15):
Um, you know, now, you, you know, you,you can't, you know, you can't tell
your kids anything because they'llbe like, that's not what Google said.
So you're kind of just,uh, you know, out of luck.
And, and, and so it's, uh, we're facingUm, a whole different, um, type of, I
guess I would say a whole different typeof human than we've known in the past.
(22:38):
And so, I think, you know, I'm, I'm goingto make kind of a, a strange statement.
I think it's almost that Um, wehave to get to know the new human
that is on the planet beforewe can even make any decisions.
Is that something, I guess, that you,you know, maybe not in the same words.
(22:58):
Is that something that, um, that hasbeen in, uh, projects and discussions
that you've been having lately?
Catarina Zuzarte Tully: I mean, absolutely. (23:06):
undefined
The question of intergenerationalconnection and how how apart different
generations feel from each other isI think a really important question.
Um, and actually it's something that, uh,our colleagues across the U. S., whether
it's in Fort Collins, who have set up,I think, the first future generations
(23:29):
commissioner in a town in the U.
S., all the way through to Montana,who have really kind of, in their
constitutional court, um, found thatEnvironmental actions have to be
taken now in order to protect youngpeople all the way through to the work
(23:50):
of Aditi Juneja in Democracy 2076.
She's kind of thinking about how shebrings together people of all ages,
you know, to think about, you know,what might that future look like?
And so you've got throughout, Ithink, at this time where people
can feel quite divided and havevery different experiences.
(24:13):
So there's people who are reallyleaning in and, and exploring what
are the things ahead and how can webring different generations together,
um, to explore what we might do.
There's, um, in California itself,you're saying that you're in California,
California 100 was a great program overthe past two years that was bringing
(24:34):
young people, old people together to lookat what California will look like in the
next hundred years, how to deal with someof the issues around water shortages.
labor issues, et cetera, that arekind of in the post, um, and what
to do about it and how to kind ofstart thinking about what might be
some of the governance institutionsthat can help the state and different
(24:55):
communities in California be prepared.
So, um, there's some reallyinteresting, just as people are
identifying issue that you highlightedso well, they're also leaning in
to do really interesting solutions.
Um, so that, that's what also makes me.
Um, ironically quite optimistic about,um, some of the situations that we're in
(25:21):
and that we're suddenly having space andrealizing that we do need to listen to
people who have actually been doing quiteradically different things for some time.
Their solutions need to be lent intoand, um, lots of interesting work
indeed, as I said, including, you know,well being economy work across Vermont
(25:41):
and Hawaii, some really interestingcitizens assemblies work, um, In New
York, CUNY's just starting something up.
So, some, some real seeds of, ofpragmatic change of what to actually
do and start designing for the future.
Annmarie Hylton (26:00):
Yes, and then the fact that you've, uh, you know,
mentioned these different regions,I, I'm going to make the assumption
that, like, regions obviously, like,um, you know, um, Hawaii, I have,
uh, some friends that live out there.
And, um, you know, and, and also overin New York that even surrounding
the plan of an SGG 2030, the, thegoals that affect them are, are
(26:26):
different and probably if the plan it.
Is to be achieved in the next fiveyears that, um, the, the focus, it's
almost, uh, this is, this is, you know,what I would, I guess, uh, even do is
that the regions that are probably morefocused on the different ones, like,
you know, maybe you say, oh, you know,you're about, you know, sustainable,
(26:49):
uh, you know, cities because, you know,you know what a city is, you know, it's
not something I guess that you would,um, uh, not to say obviously Hawaii,
they have a I'm not sure what it is.
I'm not sure if it's a city, butyou know, they're mostly concerned.
I would say about, um, land, water and,you know, weather and things like that
and having these people really, um, Iguess work towards those different areas.
(27:13):
And you know, one of the other thingsthat I didn't mention that you brought
up is, um, It's ironic and not ironicat all at the same time is the biggest
thing about these, uh, sustainable goalsand everything that is going on is about
relationships and, um, and all these,um, you know, The very thing that needs
(27:40):
to, to happen to achieve these goals andthen also to, um, you know, stop these
divides, whether it be intergenerational,uh, or, um, you know, other aspects.
Um, it needs to be, I guess, the, themain thing that we need to work, work on.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (28:02):
Um.
Absolutely.
And you brought You brought up tworeally amazing points there, which is
one, that it's the local level thatthings make sense at, and secondly,
it's where relationships can, and theirrelationships make such a difference to
actually where they're You can do andtake action or not and I just wanted to
(28:25):
build on that because I think that's, Ithink where the SDGs framework can help.
I mean, let's face it, all it is,is a framework and a story, if
you like, that is trying to say.
a few things, which is you can't pickthings off individually, you can't
help, hope to address poverty withoutaddressing ecological issues, you
(28:47):
can't address gender without looking atactually participation in the workforce.
You can't, for example, look at ifyou care about maternal health or
maternal mortality and Both variousstates in the U. S. and in, you know,
parts of London where I'm sittingat the moment, and obviously lots
of parts of the world, maternalmortality is still unacceptably high.
(29:10):
Now, do you address that just by takinga health lens, or a gender lens, or do
you actually acknowledge that actuallyone of the best ways of addressing
maternal mortality is actually tobuild much better infrastructures
and roads around hospitals, sopeople can get from the villages and
outside into care when they need it.
So the point is, is that outcomesand positive outcomes for human
(29:33):
beings in the communities that welive are complex and interdependent.
You can't just do a whack amole, like do one thing only,
because they're interconnected.
It also, the SDGs also kind of emphasizethat it's actually in our communities,
for example, In, as you mentioned, thecity planning process, it's all in our
(29:55):
townships or at the state level thatactually you can start moving things
and start planning in a certain way.
And that, I think, brings me to,I think, the most powerful part of
the SDG, a framework and the 2030agreement framework that was signed
in 2015 that people rarely focus on.
(30:16):
So they tend to focus on the 17 goals,but they don't focus on the preamble,
which says that this requires us to dothings differently, to take a different
approach to actually, engage with peopleand activate their insights and co
create, um, In interventions togetherwith civil society, businesses, academics,
(30:40):
because that's the only way that you canactually move away from a business as
usual approach to actually activatingmore resources and better ideas to get
that kind of leapfrog approach that weneed and that we need to then integrate
that into the kind of planning processesand resource allocation processes that
you mentioned that we have in Hawaii.
(31:03):
Um, in the state of Vermont, forexample, uh, uh, in Fort Collins,
when you're actually making plansat this kind of city or state level.
So I think that's the helpful contributionof the SDGs is to kind of encourage
us when we're doing that kind of workto think about who needs to be in
the room and participate in creatingthose plans and also making sure that
(31:26):
those plans are much more resilient.
And.
Annmarie Hylton (31:30):
Now, let me just, uh, state, uh, an obvious, do you think,
um, is it okay, I guess if we, uh, uh,I don't think, I don't know, amazing
things can happen any, any time, um,but, uh, I guess is it okay if we just
move the timeline on the SDG 2030s oris, or we just, uh, you know, we have a
(31:51):
lot of people saying, you know, we're,we're going down, like we're going
to, you know, we got 40 harvests, we.
You know, where, where, uh, kidsare spiraling out, um, is it
okay for us to move the timeline?
Or do you think if we move the timeline,it's, uh, it's, uh, it's detrimental?
Or is it just going to be, if we keepmoving, I guess, a timeline, then it
(32:15):
shows that we're just not serious?
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (32:18):
Yeah, so, I mean that's a great question and
a very salient question as we startcoming towards 2027 which is when
the conversations about what's goingto replace it as a framework starts.
Now, I think there's, there's a questionto that which is like we need to hold
ourselves to account for improvementson really important issues like
(32:39):
children's mortality that you just said.
It is absolutely unacceptable.
That in a world where we have antibioticshave been around for over a hundred years.
What would Alexander Fleming say if heknew how many thousands of children a
year still die because they just can'tget base access to basic antibiotics.
So on some areas we absolutelyneed to hold ourselves to account.
(33:03):
For actually moving the needleforward in the right way.
At the same time, I think, youknow, a vision for a desirable,
fair future is always relevant.
It's like a North Star and especiallyhelpful when, um, you're blown off
course, um, with other changes or blownoff course because of the very dynamics
(33:26):
of the world in which we're in, right?
It's not when we're blown offcourse because people are like.
Responding to democracy that doesn'tseem to be delivering and so they're
suddenly flailing around looking foralternative options in a world where
the system isn't doing what it says itwas going to and the social contract
(33:47):
feels as if it's broken, you know,where we have huge amounts of migration,
partly because of the vast inequalitybetween countries and also which is
getting worse and also because of, um,increasing impact of climate change.
So these are not unconnected phenomena.
And as Danella Meadows in limits togrowth pointed out with a very famous
(34:11):
MIT study in the early seventies, these.
Issues are all going to come together inthe early 2020s where demographic shifts
towards the east of the world, whereplanetary resources are being consumed
because we've got so many people onthis planet when values are shifting.
(34:33):
When technology is developing,it's all going to create
some kind of crisis moment.
And so this is the moment that we'reat and, you know, needing a response
that talks about what is that responsethat isn't about, well, let's just
go for an authoritarian, oligarchictheocracy or kleptocracy, depending
(34:54):
on where you sit in the world.
Um, that's not necessarilythe only option.
It's an.
response to, you know, an increasinglyconstrained world where there may be
conflicts around reducing resources.
But there's also otheralternative possibilities.
And one of the most powerfulpossibilities is not, you know,
(35:15):
of which the seeds were in theSustainable Development Goals story.
Is the declaration on future generationsthat was signed by every single
country unanimously in September thatcoordinates and brings people together
around this concept of the well beingof current and future generations
and doing things in the here and thenow, um, with that kind of approach.
(35:39):
So this is a long winded way ofsaying that on the one hand, we
need to be really clear about.
you know, holding ourselves to accounton, on specific areas around parts
per million on climate, looking at,you know, biodiversity, looking at
key indicators, but we also at thesame time, um, if we, you know, if we
(36:01):
continue to have a North star, like.
Um, the big picture SDG story or theDeclaration on Future Generations
that remains relevant over the next 20years, then that's no bad thing either.
Annmarie Hylton (36:16):
Yeah.
So either way, I would say there's,there's no escaping it, everyone,
we have to take some responsibility.
Um, um, and so, you know, onthe, a little bit touching on a
little bit of the political sideof the, the changes that are.
Um, just, just happening, uh,drastically, some, some daily
(36:36):
it seems, um, in the, in the U.
S. government, um, you know, the,the leaving, um, the World Health
Organization, uh, looking, leaving theParis Treaty, um, and, you know, the, the
The U. S. usually, um, acts as the bigbrother in the world, um, and, uh, you
(36:59):
know, the big brother has gone off course,off, and maybe Maybe psycho and so, um,
uh, so how do you think this latest moveis, are, are we, are we just, uh, are we
doomed or do you think it's time for, um,I guess people like change makers to rise
(37:23):
up like, uh, you know, I, I don't know.
I think something has
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (37:27):
to happen.
Absolutely.
And again, I think, you know,it's a bit like the limits to
growth point I made just now.
If you look at history books.
You know, I was just chatting to afriend of mine whose kid is just doing
her history at the moment and at theage of 15 and she's like, you know, in
all the books they say at some point inthe post second world war order, the U.
(37:51):
S. is going to.
End up not being able to, or notwilling to fulfill its role as global
sheriff, as Eikenberry says, or, um,the world's policemen, as others say,
or, you know, the hegemonic power orthe person that underpins the security
architecture, you know, that thismoment we know was going to come.
(38:13):
We didn't know when, but it wasgoing to come at some point.
And so the big question is, um.
You know, how, and the end that'shappening now is extremely abrupt
and extremely, um, uh, fast.
It's certainly, we're notsleepwalking into anything.
That's what I think the lastthree weeks have shown us.
(38:35):
This isn't a kind of, in someways, you know, like 1930 to
1939 in Germany situation.
This is, you know, there'ssome really interesting memes
that are coming out from me.
Uh, current U. S. administrationthat says quite clearly where they're
getting their inspiration from in away that nobody I think can actually
be, be unclear as to, uh, what'sinspiring their, um, their moves.
(39:00):
Um, now what does that mean?
We are at a moment of liminality.
Yes, that, that is a worldvision that they have, that
they're, they're following.
That's not the only possibility.
Um, I think that pulling out of the,uh, The multilateral system, uh, in
the way that it has and, and, youknow, overturning norms of cooperation,
(39:25):
collaboration, respect, and the rule oflaw that has been in place for the past
70 or 80 years, although not always,quite frankly, believed, you know, and
that's not how the rest of the worldalways saw the American behavior.
That's, that's, we need to underlinethat, but anyway, um, you know,
there's going to be some interestingsecond order effects, you know.
Um, is China going to lean in, forexample, on the WHO, um, around certain
(39:49):
funding, um, what happens in terms of,um, you know, African countries, although
around debt, um, uh, compromised witha lot of debt payments, what happens
around that in terms of taking, um,the lead on what's going to happen
around certain health and educationprograms in Col I've just been talking
(40:11):
to someone in Colombia today who.
does a lot of DEI work around trans, uh,indigenous, uh, representation in films.
And, you know, to a certain extentit's like, well, we work with a lot
of partners, not just American ones.
And now we're going to find out whoare really committed to this agenda of
(40:32):
those other partners and who just wereinvolved because, you know, American,
um, USAID was bankrolling programs.
So there is something about Um, there'sgoing to be second and third order effects
that are going to be very interesting.
And indeed, it also is the time andthe space where different ideas that
(40:52):
have been out and where changemakers,um, could really also come to the
fore to, to shape a radical reimagining of what's going to be next.
Because I don't believethat the, the world view.
of, uh, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue isactually held by, um, a majority of
(41:14):
the, of, of Americans nor, nor certainlythe world's population, especially if
you kind of play it out over the nextfew years and decades, what that means
for the wellbeing of people on planet.
And, you know, the, the privilege ofworking in the area that I do is that.
And back to the, the, theactivation of this powerful phrase
(41:35):
and principle of doing stuff nowin, that's for the wellbeing of
current and future generations.
It's like most people, when youtalk to them, you know, they
may disagree about the past.
They may dislike each other in thepresent, but we all have a common interest
in looking out for the wellbeing of ourchildren and our children's children.
(41:56):
And that is an amazing area for, um,Uh, coming together that is possible,
um, and that has that I've seenwork in places is different from,
you know, uh, whether it's Algeria.
Whether it's the Lebanon, whetherit's Uzbekistan and difficult, really
(42:20):
kind of conflict places, whether it'sCameroon and having conversations
about how do indigenous communitiesnavigate the fact that we need to kind
of extract primary mineral commoditiesand minerals from the, the Congo Basin,
which is, you know, very much the lungsof the planet together with the Amazon.
How do we, what does it mean to kindof, you know, balance these different
(42:42):
questions and By putting the differentpeople, mining companies, governments,
indigenous communities together tohave those conversations about what
can good look like out to 20 years andwhat might that mean that we do now,
those are really, really powerful, um,processes that really deeply unlock,
(43:04):
um, new ideas and action, and thequestion then is how do you then ensure
that the governance mechanisms thatwe have that have been captured by.
Um, often a minority of people,how do we make sure that governing
mechanisms lock those insights in?
Annmarie Hylton (43:22):
Yes.
And you were, uh, you know, I wasthinking, and this might sound, uh,
strange, but I believe even though What,you know, most people are not agreeing
what is going on in the White House.
It almost is the, the, the perfecttime to do such a thing because I
think it makes people everywherereflect to ask, who are we?
(43:49):
And what I mean by that islike, who are we as humans?
And it, it, it sparks that, like,we, we have to make this decision now
because, you know, somebody else mightbe taking over and we won't be able to
make decisions anymore for ourselves.
And so, I think it's the perfecttime after, um, you know, the
unfortunate lockdown wherepeople had lots of time to think.
(44:13):
Um, and then now, you know, um, uh, Uh,a scary like overtake that it makes you
have to like stand back and reflect andsay, okay, am I going to, it's that, uh,
I guess the moral standpoint, am I goingto just let somebody run me over or am
I going to stand up for what I believein and I'm going to, you know, think
(44:39):
about the bigger picture and not just me?
And that's what it really, and that'swhat it really means to be, me.
As they say, human, right?
Um, and so, that's thedecision that has to be made.
And my last question, becauseI know you have a hard stop.
Um, and I'm going to make thisone a fun, hopefully easy one.
(45:01):
Um, what would you say is aproject that makes you smile or
so proud of your organization?
Um, something that justmade you like, wow.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (45:12):
Oh, so many.
How can you even ask me that question?
I am a big fan of that Stephen JayGould quote, which is like, I am
less interested in the intricacies ofEinstein's brain than the fact that
there are millions of people likehim that were probably born and died
in the rice paddies of Bangladesh.
So I think that there's something about,you know, it's difficult to bring out
(45:35):
one of all of them, but, um, I am mostproud of an amazing futures methods from
around the world project, which has gotElijah from, I think, Arizona has got,
um, Pratik from India has got Alicefrom New Zealand has got Siddhi from
(46:00):
India, and they're all using, uh, theirown communities views of the future.
Often you're walking backwards into thefuture or time is cyclical, right, or
time as kinship in different communities.
And so they are kind of saying, how can webring this power of coming together, which
(46:22):
is a deeply political act with a smallp, act of empowerment, a community coming
together to discuss their own futures.
Good and bad is a deeplypowerful, empowering act.
They're like, this is somethingthat all communities all around
the world should be able to have.
And so they're doing all this kind of workto tap into the different mechanisms from
(46:44):
all different communities and sharing it.
So everybody can do this.
So that's the kind of thing that ishugely inspirational, but also we've
been doing work, for example, onintergenerational fairness, an assessment
that helps a president in Portugal.
Review the work that his governmentdoes and go, I want to champion
(47:06):
future and current citizens, thoserights, I'm going to say that's
not doing enough for the future.
So those kinds of things I'm soproud of the fact that we held a
building hopeful futures festival inNew York around the signing of the
declaration on future generations.
(47:27):
Bringing 150 people, um, and 600people globally, virtually, basically
talking about all the work thatthey're doing, including Wales,
where they have something called theWelding of Future Generations Act.
It's the 10th anniversary.
And many people around the world,whether it's Kenya, whether it's Montana.
(47:49):
Whether it's Brazil, Cameroon, etcetera, they're beginning to learn
and politicians, officials, civilsociety, businesses, they're all going,
this might be a way of actually beingthe change maker that I need to be.
So that's why I'm happy and makesme really happy and excited.
I do have some final thoughtson your point around.
(48:14):
Um, the moment that we'rein, if you're up for it.
Of course.
Yee!
So I think that your point that like,we need to be stand up, you know,
we need to stand up and be counted,I think is absolutely spot on.
Um, there is no officialfuture now, right?
The cozy view of like, oh.
Business as usual is clearly not there.
(48:36):
So the big question I have for youand for, for people listening is, are
you going to let someone else tellthe story of your future for you,
or do you want to actually build thecapability to actually tell the story
of the future that you want to live in?
Because if you don't, someoneelse is going to do it for you.
(48:58):
And that's incredibly important.
Now is the time where we need to kind oflean into and say, yes, we need to play a
defensive game, but we also need to spend,even if it's 10 percent of our time, not
energy and our resources to kind of say,we can't just address the symptoms we
need to start building in this time of.
(49:19):
Of a fungibility future can look like and,and foresight essentially is a practice
that whether you're a kind of technicalperson in an organization or whether
you're a community and social movementbuilder, or whether you're a political
leader, it helps you have a practice ofhospicing the old and midwifing the new
(49:42):
of like thinking about how things aredeclining and how things can emerge.
Um, And essentially what thatmeans is, is three things finally,
first is, you know, so basicallylet's just say, reach out to us.
We got amazing networks, um, that youcan connect to people near you or working
(50:03):
in similar areas as you, um, includingyourself, Annemarie, like the work
that you've been doing, like leadingthis for the past 17 years with 60, uh,
60 podcasts is, you know, it's like.
You're detecting signals of change.
You are a change maker.
And if you as well could kind of connectto that foresight practice, that would
(50:24):
perhaps also give a language to talkabout, um, how change is happening.
So if you're interested in being agood ancestor, if you're interested
in supporting or connecting to thekind of people that I've mentioned,
the really inspiring people usingforesight in their communities, or if.
If you just want to learn more aboutthe Foresight tools and approaches,
(50:46):
just do always get in touch becausethis is a hopeful practice that we
need for quite challenging times.
Annmarie Hylton (50:54):
Thank you Cat for your time and insight.
To learn more about Cat Tully, go to soif.
org.
uk spelled s o i f dot o r g dot u k.
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem,
or want to change minds, contactProject Good Work at projectgood.
work to start yourproject of change today.
(51:17):
Subscribe to our mailinglist at projectgood.
work slash subscribe to get our episodesand blog articles sent to you each month.
To our listeners, thanks fortuning in to Project Good, where
we're focused on what matters.
Hello and welcome to the Project Good Podcast.
(00:02):
I'm your host, Annmarie Hylton.
Project Good is a social impact podcastinterviewing experts and advocates
about the pressing problems that weface globally and hearing how they
suggest we move forward in the future.
The Project Good Podcast is broughtto you by Project Good Work.
The goal of this podcast is to inspirepeople and organizations to develop a
mindset that can move others to positiveaction regarding the complex social
(00:23):
issues facing people and the planet.
In this episode, we're focusing onthe Sustainable Development Goals,
or SDGs, for 2030 and where theworld stands in achieving them.
The SDGs are a universal call toaction to end poverty, protect
the planet, and ensure that allpeople enjoy peace and prosperity.
(00:44):
The 17 goals, along with 169 targets,were adopted by the United Nation member
states in 2015 as part of the 2030Agenda for Sustainable Development.
The 17 goals cover a wide range ofissues including poverty, hunger, health,
education, gender equality, climatechange, and sustainable development.
(01:04):
The SGGs are based on the principlesof leaving nobody behind and
promoting sustainable developmentthat balances economic, social,
and environmental dimensions.
The SGGs were intended to be implementedby all countries, both developed and
developing, working in global partnership.
The SGGs are intendedto be achieved by 2030.
(01:27):
Today I have esteemed guestCatarina Zuzarte Tully.
known as Cat Tully, who's the founderof the School of International
Futures, or SOIF, and from over here.
Cat leads the School of InternationalFutures, a not for profit international
collective of practitioners basedin the UK who use future thinking
(01:49):
to inspire change at the local,national, and global levels.
SOIF has worked with organizationslike the UN, Omniar, Night, NATO,
the Royal Society, and nationalgovernments to make the world fairer
for current and future generations.
CILF also supports a growing network ofnext generation foresight practitioners.
(02:11):
Previously, Cat served as strategyproject director at the UK Foreign
Office and as policy advisor inthe Prime Minister's Strategy Unit.
She is a non resident fellow at the U. S.Government Accountability Cat's office,
Center for Strategic Foresight, and amember of the Advisory Committee for the
Chilean Council of Foresight and Strategy.
(02:32):
Cat's mission is to inspire individuals,communities, organizations, and
governments to reinvigorate democracyby designing, scaling, and embedding
a range of innovations incorporatingthinking about the future.
Let's get into the interview.
(02:56):
It's 2015, and the year has startedoff running with shocking speeds of
change to policies, wars, humanitarianaid, environmental tragedies.
We need to face reality now anddecide who and what we want to
be in the future on this planet.
After our youth, most of us knowthat time passes by quickly.
(03:17):
And before you know it, years have gone byand you're left wondering, what happened?
Although many plans have been putin place for the future through
the SDGs for 2030, only about lessthan 16 percent are progressing.
The 17 goals are 1.
No poverty 2.
Zero hunger 3.
Good health and well being 4.
(03:38):
Quality education 5.
Gender equality 6.
Clean water and sanitation 7.
Affordable and clean energy 8.
Decent work and economic growth 9.
Industry Innovation and infrastructure,10, reduced inequalities, 11, sustainable
cities and communities, 12, responsibleconsumption and production, 13,
climate action, 14, life below water,15, land on, life on land, 16, peace,
(04:04):
justice, and strong institutions,and 17, partnerships for the goals.
Cat Tully's organization works toput strategy to all of this chaos
so that organizations, governments,and people can achieve what
they need to for a better world.
Her work applies deep understandingof futures, people, and systems,
(04:24):
something we need more now than ever.
Welcome, Cat.
Hi,
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (04:30):
Anna Marie.
It's such a pleasure to be on your show.
Thank you very much.
Annmarie Hylton (04:34):
Yes, I'm so excited about this discussion because, as I just
said, we need this more now than ever.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (04:42):
We are.
Oh, yes.
Annmarie Hylton (04:45):
I just, I don't know, I just, the last, I can't believe that
it's only the beginning of the year andso much has, like, uh, happened, it's,
it's left me just, The speechless, uh,not only myself, but just, uh, I think
a lot of people don't know what, whichdirection to run, what to think, um,
(05:08):
uh, you know, it's just, it's a shocker.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (05:13):
Yes.
It certainly feels that we are at a, acrossroads and, uh, some very, Serious
changes are happening in the next year.
Annmarie Hylton (05:22):
Yes.
And so, um, before we dive deep intothe, the chaos that we find ourselves
in, I always like to find out alittle bit of personal information
about the person that I interview.
Um, and so, I wanted to know, um, withall of the work and, um, projects that
you've been part of, what is it that youhave found, I guess, that, uh, drives
(05:45):
you or, um, inspires you to continue?
Thank you.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully: That's a great question. (05:50):
undefined
I think that of the work that we do,when I look at the array of people
that we work with, the countries thatwe're engaging in, um, the thing that
inspires me is the Next Generation FullSite Practitioner community that started
eight years ago and now has about over athousand people from a hundred countries.
(06:10):
And they're all, you know, I lovethe word that you use, changemakers.
They're all changemakers.
Playing with time, using strategicforesight to drive change in their
societies and their communities andtheir governments, whether it's Namathai
in Zimbabwe advocating for the nextgeneration, um, in her community,
(06:31):
or whether it's Amara in Sri Lanka,looking at how you engage, um, across
different, uh, religious groups.
all the way through to Raya in theUAE, who's just started this new
school of humanity, which is anonline school, uh, high school, uh,
teaching kids the kind of skills thatyou really need for the 21st century.
(06:54):
So it's that kind of, if you like,force multiplier role that we have,
where it's the work that people in thecommunity and networks that we run.
And how they've been able to use foresightto find a power base from which to kind
of really influence and drive change.
So that, I think, is the thing thatmakes me most excited and most hopeful
(07:17):
in otherwise what can feel quite agrim and overwhelmingly difficult time.
Annmarie Hylton (07:25):
Yes.
I love that.
That you, I guess I wouldsay, I was thinking about, um.
I guess, uh, planting a seed in peopleand being able to see it, um, grow or
maybe even trans, um, uh, like transforminto something, um, that becomes,
uh, I guess more than they expected.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (07:45):
Um.
Absolutely.
And at the moment that we're in wherethere's a lot of destruction of knowledge,
a lot of destruction of organizations andof relationships, um, that concept of.
being really clear about whatare the seeds that one wants to
protect and where to put them.
So when the land is more fertile andthe conditions are, are better, key
(08:10):
things that we hold and know now canthen flourish in the future is I think
a really, really helpful analogy andactually helps understand why futures
thinking, which often people think isbeing like, Oh, tell me about scenarios
in 2050, uh, might help actually bring tolife why futures thinking is so important
(08:31):
literally in the here and the now.
Often when.
We feel that the house is on fire.
Annmarie Hylton (08:37):
Yes.
And I was thinking of two questions atonce, but I think for the audience, maybe
we have to explain, I guess, what isfutures thinking and foresight thinking?
Um, so that they understand, becauseI think, you know, um, when people
always like, you know, uh, just sortof what you mentioned to think about
the future, they're always thinkinglike a crystal ball or like somebody
(08:58):
that's You know, or, uh, a NotreDame or, or something of that sort.
Um, and so, uh, I guess explain what, what
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (09:07):
is it?
Yes.
Well, what it isn't is prediction.
We are absolutely not sayingthat, uh, you can actually say
now what is going to happen.
And it's also pretty much unhelpful.
to put probabilities around whatyou think is going to happen.
But in a world where things are uncertain,where generations have got very different
(09:31):
values, where demography is changing,where geopolitics and emerging technology
is changing the world in which we'rein, often very, very quickly, it is very
helpful To go, well, actually next yearin five years time and 10 years time,
it's not going to be the same as today.
So when we're making decisions,let's have a systematic way
(09:55):
of exploring how those, that.
those different futures might look like.
So what you're often doing isunderstanding the drivers of change.
You're often understanding and questioningyour assumptions about what might happen.
And what you're often doing isputting alternative, um, views
of the future on the table.
(10:16):
So you can kind of stress test and beresilient for alternative possibilities.
Um, so again, one of the.
Uh, as well as being asked whetheryou've got a crystal ball, one of
the, um, misapprehensions peopleoften have is that, you know, that
the future, uh, is about, foresightis actually about the future.
(10:37):
It's actually not, it's aboutreframing what is possible today.
And in particular, opening up newpossibilities by asking what ifs.
and really questioning some of thoseassumptions that we, we take for granted.
So that's the, that's the fieldthat we work with and it's often at
three levels, it's, um, a mindset.
(10:59):
So thinking about how the futuremight change is something that
you can do as an individual.
It's what we do when we buy ahouse or start planning in our
organizations for the future.
Or if we come together and discusswhat might, you know, what's going
to be the kind of jobs that yourchildren will have in the future.
These are all things that we donaturally, but you know, futures
(11:19):
literacy as an individual.
can be quite helpful to think, well,actually let's be a little bit more
systematic about how we look forsignals of change in the future.
Uh, and do that.
You also can do futures and foresightat the project or intervention level.
So you come together to, for example,say, well, what's the kind of context
(11:40):
of the U S that change makers.
Who are progressives lookingto drive change around social
justice and racial equality?
What are the different scenariosthat might be playing out over
the next five to 10 to 15 years?
Yes, of course, the most immediatething on our minds are the political,
uh, changing political context, butclimate change, emerging technology,
(12:04):
that's all going to play as well.
So.
Let's be prepared and think about thosepossibilities, um, and do so together so
we can share our knowledge and perhapsorientate ourselves to being able to
build capabilities and, um, plans thatare a little bit more resilient to the
future as well as shape where we can.
(12:25):
But then you also have futures andforesight at the kind of systemic
level where we can come togetherand go, well, you know, what
is the futures that we want to.
Create together and how do we make surethat we move towards that as a society.
So those are the threethings that we work on.
And I hope that gives you a littlebit of a, uh, a pocket introduction
(12:46):
to futures and foresight.
Annmarie Hylton (12:48):
Yes.
You know, I was, I was, uh, since Ithinking pictures I was thinking of, uh,
because of where we find ourselves, Iwas thinking that, uh, you know, futures
in foresight is like, uh, preparing yourbackpack for climbing the Himalayas.
And, you know, um, you know, uh, planningout your, your trip and having, you know,
(13:09):
enough food, uh, you know, preparingfor if you're, somebody's going to get
injured, if somebody says, I don't, youknow, your, your, your walking partner
says, I don't want to walk anymore,being able to continue so you can, um,
you know, uh, keep going, uh, plan for,you know, whatever weather conditions,
Uh, so you, you know, wait, you don'tdie or, or something, wrapping the
(13:31):
right boots and then also, you know,preparing for the good things like,
you know, having the right cameraso you can say, look, we made it.
Um, so, um, so, you know, that's, youknow, if I were going to give a visual
interpretation to, um, what you do,that's what I would say that it is.
And, um, and I'm picking the Himalayas.
(13:52):
Uh, on purpose, because, you know,it's something that lots of people want
to do, but, you know, um, probably,you know, it's not for everybody and
can be terrifying to get to the top.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (14:06):
Well, I think that's a lovely analogy.
It is definitely, you know, it'sthe journey analogy is really
good because like, you oftenknow where you want to go to.
But like, you know, that you need to beprepared for it and you need to know that
actually things are going to shift on theway, you know, you might accidentally take
the wrong journey, or there may be storms.
And so being able to kind ofshift and actually still go to
(14:31):
where you want to go, but actuallyrespond to changing environment.
Yes, that's exactly what.
This area of work helps you do
Annmarie Hylton (14:40):
yes.
And so, you know, um, andspeaking of, of shifts.
So originally, when we, we start talkingabout the sustainable development
goals, they were developed in 2015.
And when we go back and look.
Uh, you know, 10 years ago, um, life wasquite different, um, you know, which is
(15:01):
expected, you know, time, time changesthings, but even I would say maybe we
were very hopeful because of, of, uh,I guess how, how people were thinking
back in 2015, um, I guess, You know,we, we, a plan was created, but I guess
(15:23):
I'll just ask the obvious question.
Is this plan realistic anymore?
Uh, well,
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (15:31):
that's a, that's a great question.
I mean, I think the visionis still relevant, right?
This vision, vision for a desirablefuture out to 2030, which was, you know,
intended to be a scaffolding, if you like,around which we can all in our own ways,
kind of coordinate our action to this.
really quite inspiring global storyof, of the kind of world that we want
(15:56):
to all live in, which is a peaceful,um, fair, uh, sustainable world
where we don't leave people behind.
Um, and that was aninterdependent and universal.
Um, and an inclusive vision, right?
Um, that, that still remains, uh, anaspirational and inspirational vision.
(16:21):
The question is, you know, especiallyafter COVID, and especially given the kind
of dynamics that we're living through atthe moment, it feels as if we're not only
far away from it, but moving away from it.
So the big question is, do we want tostill commit to that kind of vision?
Because we're going to have to startglobally rethinking what comes after
(16:43):
it in 2030, that is if the UN remainsrelevant, but in as well, it's like,
well, what do we think is actuallyhappening at the moment and is.
Some of the turbulence that we're livingthrough actually a symptom of a moment of
change and that that moment of change thatwe're in at the moment actually provides
(17:05):
almost a launch pad and opportunityfor driving the kind of radical shifts
and change that is going to be actuallynecessary to achieve that vision.
So yes, I'll leave it there, but itfeels as if we're very far indeed.
But as a kind of inspirational NorthStar, it feels more relevant than ever.
Annmarie Hylton (17:30):
Yes, um, we are, I guess you'd say, in a extremely
critical time, but, you know, andyou brought up one of the issues
that I think, you know, obviouslychanged the world, um, was COVID.
But I think COVID, not only because,of course, uh, people were ill, and it,
It is, um, when you, I'm just going tokind of go a little bit, uh, woo woo,
(17:54):
but when you're ill, um, you know,the, the, the main focus, of course,
is you have to think about yourselfand get, you know, uh, get better.
And I think one of the effects ofCOVID for the people who are, you
know, still remaining, um, here onthe planet is that it made people.
Maybe, I guess, more selfish in away because they were faced with the
(18:18):
possibility of looking at, um, their,their death, like we were all going to die
anyways, but then it became very like, uh,you know, in your face because millions of
people were, you know, uh, dropping off ofthe, the planet, um, and, and sometimes,
you know, daily, um, and, and so it madepeople, I think, think, you know, well,
(18:43):
you know, I have to be concerned aboutme and perhaps I guess the driving factor
is that it changed how people maybe,maybe think about themselves and society.
I don't know.
What do you, do you think that thatwas a big, um, uh, I guess, uh, a
factor of, you know, people kindof, uh, their minds changed after
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (19:07):
COVID.
So I think that's a great observationthat you've made, which is that there's
mixed messages out there, right?
How do you make sense of them?
So I would, how I would respond tothe, the kind of the evidence and the
signals that you've laid out is thaton the one hand, actually, I would say
that there's a lot of indicators tosay that, you know, cohesion, kindness.
(19:32):
solidarity actually came to the fore.
If you look at the amount of peoplethat actually stayed at home, it was
a huge intergenerational kindness.
Like kids who stayed at home, likecompromising their education in
service of protecting older people.
People were, there were incredibleacts of kindness at the individual
community, family level, um, whichI think is really inspiring and
(19:57):
important to kind of connect to.
Um, I, I do think what kind of explainsa lot of the phenomenon that you're
very rightly pointing out is thatwhat it showed is that our governing
mechanisms were totally out of whackand totally unsuited to kind of
address the issues that faced us.
So I think that what it showed is.
(20:19):
And I think that is an interesting aspectof the moment that we're in, is that the
institutional structures, especially ourgoverning processes that were designed
since the end of the Second World War,you know, over these past 70 years have
become more and more out of touch withthe realities of how we live our life,
(20:40):
technology, economic realities, ourvalues, and, you know, They need to be
deeply and radically refreshed and changedand that's the, that's I think the, the
question and the, and what COVID hasreally brought to the fore and I think
the question about the moment that we'rein is, you know, is this, we're at a
(21:04):
moment of, of both the old order dying.
But also a new order being reborn that canbe shaped and, and what happens now feels
like a really, these are, this, these are,this is a year and coming up few years
where things are very plastic and where.
(21:24):
Things are very much up for being shaped.
Annmarie Hylton (21:28):
Yes, and in, in that, I guess, in the shaping of that, um, I,
I, I think, especially here, because,uh, you know, I'm, I'm here in the U.
S., and we have, it's, uh, uh, I guessyou would say it's a, a conflict of, um,
thoughts and, and generations, right?
Um, because we have in our, our,Our administration right now, we
(21:52):
have somebody is coming from anolder, um, uh, older times, um, in
the U. S. where it was different.
It wasn't, uh, we didn't have, obviously,uh, this much technology and, um, I
guess I'll make a little bit more fun.
Maybe the youth were morecontrollable back then.
(22:15):
Um, you know, now, you, you know, you,you can't, you know, you can't tell
your kids anything because they'llbe like, that's not what Google said.
So you're kind of just,uh, you know, out of luck.
And, and, and so it's, uh, we're facingUm, a whole different, um, type of, I
guess I would say a whole different typeof human than we've known in the past.
(22:38):
And so, I think, you know, I'm, I'm goingto make kind of a, a strange statement.
I think it's almost that Um, wehave to get to know the new human
that is on the planet beforewe can even make any decisions.
Is that something, I guess, that you,you know, maybe not in the same words.
(22:58):
Is that something that, um, that hasbeen in, uh, projects and discussions
that you've been having lately?
Catarina Zuzarte Tully: I mean, absolutely. (23:06):
undefined
The question of intergenerationalconnection and how how apart different
generations feel from each other isI think a really important question.
Um, and actually it's something that, uh,our colleagues across the U. S., whether
it's in Fort Collins, who have set up,I think, the first future generations
(23:29):
commissioner in a town in the U.
S., all the way through to Montana,who have really kind of, in their
constitutional court, um, found thatEnvironmental actions have to be
taken now in order to protect youngpeople all the way through to the work
(23:50):
of Aditi Juneja in Democracy 2076.
She's kind of thinking about how shebrings together people of all ages,
you know, to think about, you know,what might that future look like?
And so you've got throughout, Ithink, at this time where people
can feel quite divided and havevery different experiences.
(24:13):
So there's people who are reallyleaning in and, and exploring what
are the things ahead and how can webring different generations together,
um, to explore what we might do.
There's, um, in California itself,you're saying that you're in California,
California 100 was a great program overthe past two years that was bringing
(24:34):
young people, old people together to lookat what California will look like in the
next hundred years, how to deal with someof the issues around water shortages.
labor issues, et cetera, that arekind of in the post, um, and what
to do about it and how to kind ofstart thinking about what might be
some of the governance institutionsthat can help the state and different
(24:55):
communities in California be prepared.
So, um, there's some reallyinteresting, just as people are
identifying issue that you highlightedso well, they're also leaning in
to do really interesting solutions.
Um, so that, that's what also makes me.
Um, ironically quite optimistic about,um, some of the situations that we're in
(25:21):
and that we're suddenly having space andrealizing that we do need to listen to
people who have actually been doing quiteradically different things for some time.
Their solutions need to be lent intoand, um, lots of interesting work
indeed, as I said, including, you know,well being economy work across Vermont
(25:41):
and Hawaii, some really interestingcitizens assemblies work, um, In New
York, CUNY's just starting something up.
So, some, some real seeds of, ofpragmatic change of what to actually
do and start designing for the future.
Annmarie Hylton (26:00):
Yes, and then the fact that you've, uh, you know,
mentioned these different regions,I, I'm going to make the assumption
that, like, regions obviously, like,um, you know, um, Hawaii, I have,
uh, some friends that live out there.
And, um, you know, and, and also overin New York that even surrounding
the plan of an SGG 2030, the, thegoals that affect them are, are
(26:26):
different and probably if the plan it.
Is to be achieved in the next fiveyears that, um, the, the focus, it's
almost, uh, this is, this is, you know,what I would, I guess, uh, even do is
that the regions that are probably morefocused on the different ones, like,
you know, maybe you say, oh, you know,you're about, you know, sustainable,
(26:49):
uh, you know, cities because, you know,you know what a city is, you know, it's
not something I guess that you would,um, uh, not to say obviously Hawaii,
they have a I'm not sure what it is.
I'm not sure if it's a city, butyou know, they're mostly concerned.
I would say about, um, land, water and,you know, weather and things like that
and having these people really, um, Iguess work towards those different areas.
(27:13):
And you know, one of the other thingsthat I didn't mention that you brought
up is, um, It's ironic and not ironicat all at the same time is the biggest
thing about these, uh, sustainable goalsand everything that is going on is about
relationships and, um, and all these,um, you know, The very thing that needs
(27:40):
to, to happen to achieve these goals andthen also to, um, you know, stop these
divides, whether it be intergenerational,uh, or, um, you know, other aspects.
Um, it needs to be, I guess, the, themain thing that we need to work, work on.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (28:02):
Um.
Absolutely.
And you brought You brought up tworeally amazing points there, which is
one, that it's the local level thatthings make sense at, and secondly,
it's where relationships can, and theirrelationships make such a difference to
actually where they're You can do andtake action or not and I just wanted to
(28:25):
build on that because I think that's, Ithink where the SDGs framework can help.
I mean, let's face it, all it is,is a framework and a story, if
you like, that is trying to say.
a few things, which is you can't pickthings off individually, you can't
help, hope to address poverty withoutaddressing ecological issues, you
(28:47):
can't address gender without looking atactually participation in the workforce.
You can't, for example, look at ifyou care about maternal health or
maternal mortality and Both variousstates in the U. S. and in, you know,
parts of London where I'm sittingat the moment, and obviously lots
of parts of the world, maternalmortality is still unacceptably high.
(29:10):
Now, do you address that just by takinga health lens, or a gender lens, or do
you actually acknowledge that actuallyone of the best ways of addressing
maternal mortality is actually tobuild much better infrastructures
and roads around hospitals, sopeople can get from the villages and
outside into care when they need it.
So the point is, is that outcomesand positive outcomes for human
(29:33):
beings in the communities that welive are complex and interdependent.
You can't just do a whack amole, like do one thing only,
because they're interconnected.
It also, the SDGs also kind of emphasizethat it's actually in our communities,
for example, In, as you mentioned, thecity planning process, it's all in our
(29:55):
townships or at the state level thatactually you can start moving things
and start planning in a certain way.
And that, I think, brings me to,I think, the most powerful part of
the SDG, a framework and the 2030agreement framework that was signed
in 2015 that people rarely focus on.
(30:16):
So they tend to focus on the 17 goals,but they don't focus on the preamble,
which says that this requires us to dothings differently, to take a different
approach to actually, engage with peopleand activate their insights and co
create, um, In interventions togetherwith civil society, businesses, academics,
(30:40):
because that's the only way that you canactually move away from a business as
usual approach to actually activatingmore resources and better ideas to get
that kind of leapfrog approach that weneed and that we need to then integrate
that into the kind of planning processesand resource allocation processes that
you mentioned that we have in Hawaii.
(31:03):
Um, in the state of Vermont, forexample, uh, uh, in Fort Collins,
when you're actually making plansat this kind of city or state level.
So I think that's the helpful contributionof the SDGs is to kind of encourage
us when we're doing that kind of workto think about who needs to be in
the room and participate in creatingthose plans and also making sure that
(31:26):
those plans are much more resilient.
And.
Annmarie Hylton (31:30):
Now, let me just, uh, state, uh, an obvious, do you think,
um, is it okay, I guess if we, uh, uh,I don't think, I don't know, amazing
things can happen any, any time, um,but, uh, I guess is it okay if we just
move the timeline on the SDG 2030s oris, or we just, uh, you know, we have a
(31:51):
lot of people saying, you know, we're,we're going down, like we're going
to, you know, we got 40 harvests, we.
You know, where, where, uh, kidsare spiraling out, um, is it
okay for us to move the timeline?
Or do you think if we move the timeline,it's, uh, it's, uh, it's detrimental?
Or is it just going to be, if we keepmoving, I guess, a timeline, then it
(32:15):
shows that we're just not serious?
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (32:18):
Yeah, so, I mean that's a great question and
a very salient question as we startcoming towards 2027 which is when
the conversations about what's goingto replace it as a framework starts.
Now, I think there's, there's a questionto that which is like we need to hold
ourselves to account for improvementson really important issues like
(32:39):
children's mortality that you just said.
It is absolutely unacceptable.
That in a world where we have antibioticshave been around for over a hundred years.
What would Alexander Fleming say if heknew how many thousands of children a
year still die because they just can'tget base access to basic antibiotics.
So on some areas we absolutelyneed to hold ourselves to account.
(33:03):
For actually moving the needleforward in the right way.
At the same time, I think, youknow, a vision for a desirable,
fair future is always relevant.
It's like a North Star and especiallyhelpful when, um, you're blown off
course, um, with other changes or blownoff course because of the very dynamics
(33:26):
of the world in which we're in, right?
It's not when we're blown offcourse because people are like.
Responding to democracy that doesn'tseem to be delivering and so they're
suddenly flailing around looking foralternative options in a world where
the system isn't doing what it says itwas going to and the social contract
(33:47):
feels as if it's broken, you know,where we have huge amounts of migration,
partly because of the vast inequalitybetween countries and also which is
getting worse and also because of, um,increasing impact of climate change.
So these are not unconnected phenomena.
And as Danella Meadows in limits togrowth pointed out with a very famous
(34:11):
MIT study in the early seventies, these.
Issues are all going to come together inthe early 2020s where demographic shifts
towards the east of the world, whereplanetary resources are being consumed
because we've got so many people onthis planet when values are shifting.
(34:33):
When technology is developing,it's all going to create
some kind of crisis moment.
And so this is the moment that we'reat and, you know, needing a response
that talks about what is that responsethat isn't about, well, let's just
go for an authoritarian, oligarchictheocracy or kleptocracy, depending
(34:54):
on where you sit in the world.
Um, that's not necessarilythe only option.
It's an.
response to, you know, an increasinglyconstrained world where there may be
conflicts around reducing resources.
But there's also otheralternative possibilities.
And one of the most powerfulpossibilities is not, you know,
(35:15):
of which the seeds were in theSustainable Development Goals story.
Is the declaration on future generationsthat was signed by every single
country unanimously in September thatcoordinates and brings people together
around this concept of the well beingof current and future generations
and doing things in the here and thenow, um, with that kind of approach.
(35:39):
So this is a long winded way ofsaying that on the one hand, we
need to be really clear about.
you know, holding ourselves to accounton, on specific areas around parts
per million on climate, looking at,you know, biodiversity, looking at
key indicators, but we also at thesame time, um, if we, you know, if we
(36:01):
continue to have a North star, like.
Um, the big picture SDG story or theDeclaration on Future Generations
that remains relevant over the next 20years, then that's no bad thing either.
Annmarie Hylton (36:16):
Yeah.
So either way, I would say there's,there's no escaping it, everyone,
we have to take some responsibility.
Um, um, and so, you know, onthe, a little bit touching on a
little bit of the political sideof the, the changes that are.
Um, just, just happening, uh,drastically, some, some daily
(36:36):
it seems, um, in the, in the U.
S. government, um, you know, the,the leaving, um, the World Health
Organization, uh, looking, leaving theParis Treaty, um, and, you know, the, the
The U. S. usually, um, acts as the bigbrother in the world, um, and, uh, you
(36:59):
know, the big brother has gone off course,off, and maybe Maybe psycho and so, um,
uh, so how do you think this latest moveis, are, are we, are we just, uh, are we
doomed or do you think it's time for, um,I guess people like change makers to rise
(37:23):
up like, uh, you know, I, I don't know.
I think something has
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (37:27):
to happen.
Absolutely.
And again, I think, you know,it's a bit like the limits to
growth point I made just now.
If you look at history books.
You know, I was just chatting to afriend of mine whose kid is just doing
her history at the moment and at theage of 15 and she's like, you know, in
all the books they say at some point inthe post second world war order, the U.
(37:51):
S. is going to.
End up not being able to, or notwilling to fulfill its role as global
sheriff, as Eikenberry says, or, um,the world's policemen, as others say,
or, you know, the hegemonic power orthe person that underpins the security
architecture, you know, that thismoment we know was going to come.
(38:13):
We didn't know when, but it wasgoing to come at some point.
And so the big question is, um.
You know, how, and the end that'shappening now is extremely abrupt
and extremely, um, uh, fast.
It's certainly, we're notsleepwalking into anything.
That's what I think the lastthree weeks have shown us.
(38:35):
This isn't a kind of, in someways, you know, like 1930 to
1939 in Germany situation.
This is, you know, there'ssome really interesting memes
that are coming out from me.
Uh, current U. S. administrationthat says quite clearly where they're
getting their inspiration from in away that nobody I think can actually
be, be unclear as to, uh, what'sinspiring their, um, their moves.
(39:00):
Um, now what does that mean?
We are at a moment of liminality.
Yes, that, that is a worldvision that they have, that
they're, they're following.
That's not the only possibility.
Um, I think that pulling out of the,uh, The multilateral system, uh, in
the way that it has and, and, youknow, overturning norms of cooperation,
(39:25):
collaboration, respect, and the rule oflaw that has been in place for the past
70 or 80 years, although not always,quite frankly, believed, you know, and
that's not how the rest of the worldalways saw the American behavior.
That's, that's, we need to underlinethat, but anyway, um, you know,
there's going to be some interestingsecond order effects, you know.
Um, is China going to lean in, forexample, on the WHO, um, around certain
(39:49):
funding, um, what happens in terms of,um, you know, African countries, although
around debt, um, uh, compromised witha lot of debt payments, what happens
around that in terms of taking, um,the lead on what's going to happen
around certain health and educationprograms in Col I've just been talking
(40:11):
to someone in Colombia today who.
does a lot of DEI work around trans, uh,indigenous, uh, representation in films.
And, you know, to a certain extentit's like, well, we work with a lot
of partners, not just American ones.
And now we're going to find out whoare really committed to this agenda of
(40:32):
those other partners and who just wereinvolved because, you know, American,
um, USAID was bankrolling programs.
So there is something about Um, there'sgoing to be second and third order effects
that are going to be very interesting.
And indeed, it also is the time andthe space where different ideas that
(40:52):
have been out and where changemakers,um, could really also come to the
fore to, to shape a radical reimagining of what's going to be next.
Because I don't believethat the, the world view.
of, uh, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue isactually held by, um, a majority of
(41:14):
the, of, of Americans nor, nor certainlythe world's population, especially if
you kind of play it out over the nextfew years and decades, what that means
for the wellbeing of people on planet.
And, you know, the, the privilege ofworking in the area that I do is that.
And back to the, the, theactivation of this powerful phrase
(41:35):
and principle of doing stuff nowin, that's for the wellbeing of
current and future generations.
It's like most people, when youtalk to them, you know, they
may disagree about the past.
They may dislike each other in thepresent, but we all have a common interest
in looking out for the wellbeing of ourchildren and our children's children.
(41:56):
And that is an amazing area for, um,Uh, coming together that is possible,
um, and that has that I've seenwork in places is different from,
you know, uh, whether it's Algeria.
Whether it's the Lebanon, whetherit's Uzbekistan and difficult, really
(42:20):
kind of conflict places, whether it'sCameroon and having conversations
about how do indigenous communitiesnavigate the fact that we need to kind
of extract primary mineral commoditiesand minerals from the, the Congo Basin,
which is, you know, very much the lungsof the planet together with the Amazon.
How do we, what does it mean to kindof, you know, balance these different
(42:42):
questions and By putting the differentpeople, mining companies, governments,
indigenous communities together tohave those conversations about what
can good look like out to 20 years andwhat might that mean that we do now,
those are really, really powerful, um,processes that really deeply unlock,
(43:04):
um, new ideas and action, and thequestion then is how do you then ensure
that the governance mechanisms thatwe have that have been captured by.
Um, often a minority of people,how do we make sure that governing
mechanisms lock those insights in?
Annmarie Hylton (43:22):
Yes.
And you were, uh, you know, I wasthinking, and this might sound, uh,
strange, but I believe even though What,you know, most people are not agreeing
what is going on in the White House.
It almost is the, the, the perfecttime to do such a thing because I
think it makes people everywherereflect to ask, who are we?
(43:49):
And what I mean by that islike, who are we as humans?
And it, it, it sparks that, like,we, we have to make this decision now
because, you know, somebody else mightbe taking over and we won't be able to
make decisions anymore for ourselves.
And so, I think it's the perfecttime after, um, you know, the
unfortunate lockdown wherepeople had lots of time to think.
(44:13):
Um, and then now, you know, um, uh, Uh,a scary like overtake that it makes you
have to like stand back and reflect andsay, okay, am I going to, it's that, uh,
I guess the moral standpoint, am I goingto just let somebody run me over or am
I going to stand up for what I believein and I'm going to, you know, think
(44:39):
about the bigger picture and not just me?
And that's what it really, and that'swhat it really means to be, me.
As they say, human, right?
Um, and so, that's thedecision that has to be made.
And my last question, becauseI know you have a hard stop.
Um, and I'm going to make thisone a fun, hopefully easy one.
(45:01):
Um, what would you say is aproject that makes you smile or
so proud of your organization?
Um, something that justmade you like, wow.
Catarina Zuzarte Tully (45:12):
Oh, so many.
How can you even ask me that question?
I am a big fan of that Stephen JayGould quote, which is like, I am
less interested in the intricacies ofEinstein's brain than the fact that
there are millions of people likehim that were probably born and died
in the rice paddies of Bangladesh.
So I think that there's something about,you know, it's difficult to bring out
(45:35):
one of all of them, but, um, I am mostproud of an amazing futures methods from
around the world project, which has gotElijah from, I think, Arizona has got,
um, Pratik from India has got Alicefrom New Zealand has got Siddhi from
(46:00):
India, and they're all using, uh, theirown communities views of the future.
Often you're walking backwards into thefuture or time is cyclical, right, or
time as kinship in different communities.
And so they are kind of saying, how can webring this power of coming together, which
(46:22):
is a deeply political act with a smallp, act of empowerment, a community coming
together to discuss their own futures.
Good and bad is a deeplypowerful, empowering act.
They're like, this is somethingthat all communities all around
the world should be able to have.
And so they're doing all this kind of workto tap into the different mechanisms from
(46:44):
all different communities and sharing it.
So everybody can do this.
So that's the kind of thing that ishugely inspirational, but also we've
been doing work, for example, onintergenerational fairness, an assessment
that helps a president in Portugal.
Review the work that his governmentdoes and go, I want to champion
(47:06):
future and current citizens, thoserights, I'm going to say that's
not doing enough for the future.
So those kinds of things I'm soproud of the fact that we held a
building hopeful futures festival inNew York around the signing of the
declaration on future generations.
(47:27):
Bringing 150 people, um, and 600people globally, virtually, basically
talking about all the work thatthey're doing, including Wales,
where they have something called theWelding of Future Generations Act.
It's the 10th anniversary.
And many people around the world,whether it's Kenya, whether it's Montana.
(47:49):
Whether it's Brazil, Cameroon, etcetera, they're beginning to learn
and politicians, officials, civilsociety, businesses, they're all going,
this might be a way of actually beingthe change maker that I need to be.
So that's why I'm happy and makesme really happy and excited.
I do have some final thoughtson your point around.
(48:14):
Um, the moment that we'rein, if you're up for it.
Of course.
Yee!
So I think that your point that like,we need to be stand up, you know,
we need to stand up and be counted,I think is absolutely spot on.
Um, there is no officialfuture now, right?
The cozy view of like, oh.
Business as usual is clearly not there.
(48:36):
So the big question I have for youand for, for people listening is, are
you going to let someone else tellthe story of your future for you,
or do you want to actually build thecapability to actually tell the story
of the future that you want to live in?
Because if you don't, someoneelse is going to do it for you.
(48:58):
And that's incredibly important.
Now is the time where we need to kind oflean into and say, yes, we need to play a
defensive game, but we also need to spend,even if it's 10 percent of our time, not
energy and our resources to kind of say,we can't just address the symptoms we
need to start building in this time of.
(49:19):
Of a fungibility future can look like and,and foresight essentially is a practice
that whether you're a kind of technicalperson in an organization or whether
you're a community and social movementbuilder, or whether you're a political
leader, it helps you have a practice ofhospicing the old and midwifing the new
(49:42):
of like thinking about how things aredeclining and how things can emerge.
Um, And essentially what thatmeans is, is three things finally,
first is, you know, so basicallylet's just say, reach out to us.
We got amazing networks, um, that youcan connect to people near you or working
(50:03):
in similar areas as you, um, includingyourself, Annemarie, like the work
that you've been doing, like leadingthis for the past 17 years with 60, uh,
60 podcasts is, you know, it's like.
You're detecting signals of change.
You are a change maker.
And if you as well could kind of connectto that foresight practice, that would
(50:24):
perhaps also give a language to talkabout, um, how change is happening.
So if you're interested in being agood ancestor, if you're interested
in supporting or connecting to thekind of people that I've mentioned,
the really inspiring people usingforesight in their communities, or if.
If you just want to learn more aboutthe Foresight tools and approaches,
(50:46):
just do always get in touch becausethis is a hopeful practice that we
need for quite challenging times.
Annmarie Hylton (50:54):
Thank you Cat for your time and insight.
To learn more about Cat Tully, go to soif.
org.
uk spelled s o i f dot o r g dot u k.
If you have a passion for an unservedcommunity, a social justice problem,
or want to change minds, contactProject Good Work at projectgood.
work to start yourproject of change today.
(51:17):
Subscribe to our mailinglist at projectgood.
work slash subscribe to get our episodesand blog articles sent to you each month.
To our listeners, thanks fortuning in to Project Good, where
we're focused on what matters.
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