Martial Arts Meets Firearms: Training the Modern Day Warrior at Sig Sauer Academy

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Project Sapient is a podcast meant to engage our brothers and sisters in the
law enforcement and military communities in conversations that we all know we need to have.
All opinions you hear are our own, and they are protected by the First Amendment
of the United States Constitution.
They are in no way reflect or meant to reflect the opinion of any specific agency,
officer, or service member.

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Some opinions may be controversial. The center of discretion is advised. Enjoy.
Music.
Thank you. Thank you.

(01:02):
We'll be right back. Hey everybody, welcome back to Project Sapient.
We are actually in a very special location up here in New Hampshire today to
record our second in-person episode.
So, this is our second one. But we are here at the SIG SAR Academy at the SIG
Experience Center. And man, it's awesome here.

(01:23):
Yeah, this place has been pretty phenomenal. It's about two years old now.
And when I, when I first came up here to get a look at this place,
I'd always heard about the Sig Sauer Academy and all the amazing training and
opportunities they have here.
And then coming out here and being able to be part of it has been like quite an adventure.
Oh yeah. See this place in where you hear stories about where it was. Yeah.

(01:44):
20 something years ago, just a couple of card tables and a, in a berm and a
mom and pop gun shop. And then you see this, it's like 400 acres.
Yeah. That they have of all ranges. Oh, it's, it's, it's amazing.
Amazing place. And for you, for our listeners, definitely come up here,
take their classes, even come through the experience center,
check out everything they got, man.
I mean, it's, it's, I call it like Disneyland for adults pretty much,

(02:08):
you know, when you come up here because of all the different things you can
do when you're, when you're up here, but without further ado,
I'm sure everyone's wondering who am I talking to right now,
but first quick shout out to our supporters out there, Havoc Journal.
Who you guys all know I write a shit ton for.
I actually just had a few recent publications. If you go on HavocJournal.com

(02:31):
and check them out, type my name in the search, and you'll see some of my latest that I've written.
And also 22 Mohawks, preventing first responder and veteran suicide through
empowering and helping them find that sense of purpose.
And also our friends at the Second Mission Foundation, where they elevate and
educate our veteran community opportunity for their second mission,

(02:54):
what they find to do after service.
So, uh, so we are here again at SIG Academy with Gavin, Gavin Wegman, right?
Wegman. Wegman. Sorry. It's okay, man. Gavin Wegman.
People butcher my name every day. So I'm like, I'm so used to it,
but yeah, Gavin Wegman, a quick little bio on him.
Yeah. Gavin is a former U.S. Marine artillery men's C fellow,

(03:16):
fellow red leg right there. Yeah.
Two deployments and also went to the, it looks like army national guard.
In Vermont, and you did two deployments, one with the Marine,
one with the Army? Both with Marines. Both with Marines. Okay.
And then you were a police community service officer, nightclub bartender and bouncer.
You're a first degree BJJ black belt, and currently you're a range safety officer

(03:41):
working at the SIG Experience Center up here in Epping, New Hampshire. Yeah.
So, which I like your dedication in terms of, you know,
working alongside a SIG Academy academy leadership to
help guide the academy's growth into the fighting combatives world and
i love the dedication that you have in shifting
you know the idea of firearm ownership from a

(04:02):
luxury skill set to a necessary form of kind of like in the martial arts right
yeah where you know me and you talk a lot about you know tenets of bushido and
a lot of the more philosophical yeah i love talking philosophy you know you
know because it well if if to me if you are i mean i I told you before,
if your practice is a martial artist or practice and never really study it,

(04:24):
you're not getting the full experience, right?
If you're not reading, you know, Miyado Musashi, some of the greatest.
Samurais or Sun Tzu, if you're not reading any of those to really understand,
yeah, Mark Surrey, to really understand what it means to be what we'll call
modern day warrior, right?

(04:44):
Where, you know, the, the, the stigma of the,
your common public is all warriors the type that you know
kicking doors and all kinds of like you know
this aggressive viking looking type it's deeper it's
much much deeper exactly and and that's something that
you know the the common individual even those who aren't really tuned into it
just don't understand that part of the martial arts so with you kind of viewing

(05:10):
this idea through the lens of martial arts and physical fitness education you
kind of have you believe that.
That's a way to move forward kind of for the survival of the second amendment
literally is, and to unite all these tenets that we've learned over the years
and that we see in practice in the martial arts and bring it into this world,

(05:32):
whether it's a six hour academy and to really bring and hone in those skill sets for everybody,
essentially not just law enforcement or military, but there's more for everybody
to study what it means to be kind of like this This holistic type warrior where
you study everything kind of all around encompassing type guy.

(05:52):
You have an answer for everything that comes, whether it's from,
whether it's you're fighting for your life at a long distance or you're having
a conversation, you're literally having a debate with a friend.
There's all, it's all conflict and it's all at a different scale,
but, but, but there's tenets that apply to all of them about respecting your
opponent, making sure you respect the person that might be trying to defeat

(06:14):
you, to work on yourself.
Not just, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally and learning how
to control your impulses, learning how to understand your opponent's behavior
by getting into their shoes and, and knowing where they might be coming from.
You want a water, by the way, we have some water back here. Okay.
Yeah, no, I appreciate it. I appreciate it.
So yeah, it is so much more to being a warrior than just the physical fitness

(06:38):
and knowing how to kick a door down and have the, I like to put it like you,
like you can have the heart and, and the, and the instinct to know how to fight and kill.
It doesn't mean, you know, how to do it and that's an end up in the journey
and the saga of every person's journey, every person's life.
Adventure into learning how to defend themselves, there's that,

(06:59):
there's that moment where they start to find this internal peace that gives
them that level of confidence and control over their emotions and control over
themselves on the worst days of their life.
And I think that's something that is, is we're getting further and further away from, and I want to do,
this is me coming here to this academy is the beginning of me doing everything

(07:22):
I can to try to, to try to shift that direction and it's which you know i believe
a lot of people here at sig also see the the the
same the same idea yeah like literally
the whole reason i came out here in the first place was because a
sig sour video docu seven part video documentary called sig empower the people
it was i highly recommend you watch it came out september 20th 2020 and it it

(07:47):
honestly felt like this sig academy took i've always been very passionate about
helping people be prepared for the worst days of their lives.
Like whether that's, you know, like I said, mental, physical, whatever.
And I felt like Sig just took the ball out of my hand and just disappeared into
the horizon with it. And I was like, I gotta catch up.
I gotta catch up to you, man. How did you do that? Just in a video,

(08:09):
I felt like it was taken from me.
And I was like, okay, that's the place to go. That's the place to go to continue this journey.
This, at this point I had been training in jujitsu for, I don't know,
maybe seven, eight, nine years maybe. And then I saw SIG have this thing and
I started researching SIG. I started researching the academy.
I was looking at all the instructors and who knew jujitsu.

(08:30):
If any of them had jujitsu, would there be any sort of like landing strip for
me to, to find as I traveled out here with my family?
Yeah. And, and that was another process, like convincing my family,
like my, my wife and, and all those wonderful communities I have back home that
like, I have to, I have to go this way.
Like I'm, I'm called to be here for the next, for the next chapter of what my purpose is.

(08:56):
Yeah. And it's fully, it's fully in. Yeah.
See, that's kind of the amazing part is that I find with a lot of us veterans
is after we get out is kind of honing in that sense of purpose that we built, right?
Because, you know, once we're done with war, like I got medically discharged.
So once we are all done with that and you come back and you're like,

(09:19):
what the fuck am I going to do now?
You know, and all of us, I think, that have been there realized at some point
when we actually looked internally is.
And it took a lot of others to tell me this,
is the experiences we've experienced at war or whatever else throughout our

(09:40):
lives can really turn into instruction for the next generation of warriors or whatever.
Ever, because yeah, 20 years of GWAT really, you know, exhausted us,
but at the same time, the lessons learned and the type of people that came out
of it are truly incredible.

(10:01):
And some of the people that, that you and I both know, you know,
some like, you know, Kyle Lamb or even Chuck Ritter, command size,
Chuck Ritter and Tim Kennedy, and all those guys that have really took that
mantle and found their second purpose.
Right. And that's something I see that you did is you found that passion and you ran with it.
And SIG kind of pretty much welcomed you into this world because I'm sure they

(10:28):
realized that you have that sense of purpose and that drive to make something happen here at SIG.
Is that something that- 100%. And I wasn't the only one.
As far as, and so far as the, the development of coming here for me was the objective was,
like I say in here is to, is to, the end goal is to get second amendment enthusiasts

(10:51):
and people that are on the fence about the second amendment.
And even people that hate guns to start shifting the mindset to,
this is a martial art and these people who carry these are martial artists and
therefore they are, they are becoming peaceful people.
And so coming here and having that mission and, and even though I didn't really
express that to the, to the, that level of degree, cause I'm not,

(11:14):
I'm never sure if people are going to be able to, to meet me at that level.
And they're like, okay, you're getting a little out. That's a little like big
for what you're just an RSO dude. Chill out. Yeah.
But I have been so, so lucky to run into people out here that have been sort
of developing this program even before I came here to publicly pick up the flag
and move forward. work. There are others that were here before me that have

(11:36):
played their part. There's, there's.
One guy, I'll refer to him as Stellen. Stellen. Okay.
He is, he likes his privacy, but he had this thing running before I ever showed up.
He actually was running some jujitsu stuff here for a couple of years and it
got really, really popular.
He did a very good job developing the community and making sure people were learning correctly.

(11:59):
And then COVID hit and they had to slow it down. There was another instructor
here, Justin Christopher.
He's a fourth degree under Pedro Sauer. And I was, I had every intention of
being like, okay, there's the guy. That's I gotta get to know this guy.
Cause this is how we make this happen.
And, and that's how, and then as soon as I get here, like I saw the mats that
there were these nice rollout mats that were for a modern pugilist course that

(12:19):
I believe he developed alongside another black belt instructor that worked for SIG and then like,
as I'm still kind of feeling out my area here, they ended up moving further on in their careers.
And, and I was just like, I, I sort of, as I was here, I started self-medicating
myself with distractions and, and, and different hobbies because I felt like

(12:43):
I couldn't continue forward without them.
But I ended up falling, like kind of like dipping into a depression because
like you said, a moment ago, a lot of us veterans, like we need purpose.
We need to feel like there's something beyond us that we're fighting for.
And I eventually was just like, okay, enough is enough.
I I'm just going to start going out into, I'm just going to start,
I'm going to see if I can pick this flag up.
I'll start emailing people, asking if people are interested,

(13:05):
what, what resources do I have around me? Yep.
And I slowly started to, I just didn't stop every day.
It was just, it was to add 1%, move this, move, just push this reach for the
ball. 1% more than I did yesterday.
And sometimes it would be 5%, sometimes it'd be more than that.
But if I could just put 1% out, I was allowed to put my head down and sleep and.

(13:29):
And that just continued to snowball. And it, it, and that, those moments look
like things like, you know, I might, I might, it might be the middle of winter
and we're out here in Epping, New Hampshire and driving out here was a little,
maybe it may have seemed a little dangerous and I would still like, we might even be like,
a lot of people went home early, like the storm's coming in and I'm like,

(13:49):
I got to set up for jujitsu because I have one person that said they were going to make it. Yeah.
So I will be here for that. I will be consistent.
I will not let this and the, you know, I will not let this slip and like,
and there was actually kind of a, a point of pride of pushing past that,
that temptation to just give into what everyone else is doing.
Like, I'm just going to go home and I got, I'm tired, you know,

(14:09):
I'll just, you know, I'll log out early, but you know, just continuing to push and push and push.
But that's, that, that's what's great is like you said, actually,
I like that is, you know, you just do that 1% more.
So it's kind of like, you know, when you see people, you know,
some of these fitness guys or whatever, you know, just get up going to the gym,
you're halfway there already, you know, whether you don't feel it or you're, you know, whatever.

(14:31):
But as soon as you walk through those doors, you're like in,
you know, in, in that zone, right.
It gets you in that zone. So that's, that's kinda, that's a good way of looking
at it is even, you know, when, when I talk to other, uh, even,
you know, within the law enforcement profession, talking to other cops and whatever.
And I tell them like, in terms of training, I was like, you know,
you become 1% better because you decided to dry fire for 20 minutes every night,

(14:55):
you know? And I said that that's all it takes. It doesn't take much,
you know, but it's, it's adding that skill.
I mean, you and I both know in the martial arts, I mean, I started when I was
in the fifth grade and in the martial arts, it's like you repeatedly do the punch and you're like.
As a kid over and over and over and you're

(15:15):
like yeah how many punches am i getting you know but what am
i good at a punch exactly you know and and that's the thing it's it's it's i
think was the one who said that he's not afraid of the person who is able to
hit you once he's afraid of the one that has practiced thousands of reps and
able to connect with you because that is like Like, you know,

(15:38):
that guy has been practicing for a long time for that one single moment,
that one single shot that he was able to get you.
And that's the scary one, right? That's the one that will get you.
So, so it's kind of, I take that back to like into the law enforcement profession
where training is so important, even though you and I both know that you don't

(15:59):
get as much training as you think, as the people think.
But through those repetition of training.
You're able to be better, that much better, that 1% better, whether you're reading
criminal law or even philosophy or whatever, you know, it makes you that much
better in, in your response to the world that's around you because people never
call us on their best day. Right.

(16:19):
It's always on the worst day. Yep. So if your mindset's already elevated.
Right, if you're already like 100 miles an hour and don't realize anything,
you get to the scene and all of a sudden it turns to shit, oh,
you might be the problem.
You're overloaded. Exactly. You're already, your amygdala's already taken over.

(16:39):
Exactly. And that's where you don't think clearly. So what I like is with the
concept of bringing BJJ into this world, right?
When you first, I mean, we'll kind of take it back to when you first started the program here.
I remember when I came out here to run training for, with the guys over at BJJ

(17:01):
Cops, you were just starting off at that trailer, right? And how,
what has. We didn't even have the trailer.
We had a, we had a, essentially what we used was a conference room. Oh, that's right.
It was right next door here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had this really big conference
room and tons of tables, tons of chairs.
And what I would do for setting up for jujitsu is I would move all 40,

(17:22):
50 of these tables and 60 something chairs.
I would push them all to the back of the room. I would roll out every single rollout mat.
I would measure and make sure they're all lined, covered and aligned evenly
as, as nicely as possible. Then I would tape them all down and then I would clean them.
And I would do that. We would do class for an hour and then I was lucky afterwards

(17:45):
as time went on and people started to hang out afterwards, they would help me
put the room back together, but it would be a good, like four hours of time
of just being like, okay.
From, from the moment I pushed the first chair back to the moment I put that
chair, I returned the chair to where it started, you know, putting the room
complete back together.
It'd be like a good four or five hours of like just having to reassemble a conference

(18:06):
room because we have some like really high end client coming through the next day.
So it started there. It started with, with that.
So after you started there, you know,
could you be able to gauge kind of like people are really digging this kind of,
you know, bringing this side or that side of
the world to sig and where people
starting to pick up on like oh yeah i could see how this

(18:30):
is also helpful with my skill set and firearms and
stuff like that it's very easy to sell that and i and i personally have been
have been able to i can make very strong arguments as to why you should be training
brazilian jiu-jitsu which i'd love to go into as we're here yeah but i was very
lucky to run into one of the the former director was very supportive of the

(18:50):
academy he was very supportive of,
of letting this, of just kind of like letting me do my thing and bring in employees
and they would bring a friend here and there.
Yeah. And then he later moved on in his career and he was his replacement,
Phil Strader, who is in charge of the Academy now.
I mean, he's actually got some, he's got some connections out into the fight
world. Some actually very respectable connections.
He knows John Jones, he knows always Gracie personally, like he's got some connections

(19:13):
out there and I know he sees,
he's the only person I've ran into that doesn't train jiu-jitsu and he sees
like 99% of what I see. Good.
And, and it's, he's, he's been able and he's, he's helped feed this thing and helped energize it.
And he has even actively been on the mats, covered in sweat.

(19:37):
Rolling with other people. Like I've seen it firsthand.
It was when Hoyce Gracie visited. Yeah. He was, he was going to see a train with Hoyce at school.
So I've been, like I said earlier, I've been very lucky to run into those people.
So that's how it really started to expand.
Was it had that energy behind it. And I, and I'm doing everything I can to show
that I'm, I am consistent and I do take this very seriously and I'm,

(19:59):
I'm going to be trying to guide this ship as far as it possibly can go,
whether, you know, taking it through all the storms it inevitably will go through
and, and, you know, making sure any sunny days that come that anyone who's on
the ship is, is the first to enjoy them. Yeah.
And so it's, there's more to come. As of now, where we are presently now,

(20:21):
we now have our own little building.
It was formerly the, the, the instructor's trailer. It's where they kept all
their equipment and they, you know, they would have lunch in there.
And, and I was very lucky to be able to be given that, uh, to be gifted this
and, and to be, they, they, they went forth and they spent a substantial amount
of money on the best mats that money can buy.

(20:43):
Cause I was like, if we're going to do a SIG thing, like this has,
you know, how it has to be nice.
Like SIG does, it's, they have a saying around here, buy once, cry once.
Yeah. And it's, it's sort of like. Actually, I like that motto.
Buy once, cry once, man. It's like, yeah, it's a lot of money,
but it's gonna be worth it. Yeah. Yeah.
And so they, they, they, they put forth the money for the best mats I've ever

(21:05):
seen in my whole fighting career. Yeah. I loved it. Yeah.
And so that's set up right now and we're, we're still just kind of getting it.
We're still just sort of priming everything or for public release.
Okay. So the launch is not yet. You're still kind of building it.
Yeah. We still have class in there. We still have class in there right now. You know, no charge.
Come on through. Have a good time. But that is going to change at some point down the road.

(21:27):
So let's, let's talk about why you should train in BJJ.
And my thing is not only with BJJ, but like I tell all the guys during roll
call, all the guys and gals, like, listen, train in something.
Like get good at something, whether it be judo, kickboxing, Muay Thai,

(21:47):
Jiu Jitsu, you know, Kenpo, whatever, you know, whatever it might be,
because those skills that you learn.
Are skills that take you throughout your entire life pretty much, right?
I mean, at some point, we're going to get older. At some point,
we're not going to be able to shoot as well as we used to, you know,
because that just happens.
But a skill that will always, is constant, is martial arts.

(22:11):
It's your own body that you're using.
And you can see, you know, some of the older guys in the profession who still
have it, right, who can still kick ass and do all that.
But the reason why, and I laugh because I back up kind of when I first became
a cop and I was doing my martial arts all the time, like three times a week and all that stuff. of.

(22:35):
And I remember I was having a discussion with my Lieutenant at the time when
I worked in Boston and I was told that at the time,
since the moves or the skills that I have are not sanctioned by the training council,
liability will fall on me if I was to hurt somebody by an unapproved move.

(22:58):
I'm thinking in my head, I'm like, you know, the bullshit I learned at the Academy,
the DT defensive tactics which you know as well as
i do none of it really works it's
it's it is and i find it that
you know i was like i'm like you know what the guy who probably created that combatives
it probably never been in a fight in in their entire lives you know and and

(23:18):
at the time i ended up having to leave because i'm like well i don't want to
lose my job over you know but i laughed because several years later all of a
sudden you got this influx like oh go out there do BJJ, do this. I'm like, no shit.
Like this, this should have been a no brainer.
So, so, you know, in, in your way, like why, why should someone,

(23:41):
it doesn't have to be law enforcement or military, whatever,
but why does someone, someone should train in BJJ?
I like to start when I try to sell people on this on, on the easiest thing,
or I start with the mental aspects of it.
Just like you said, it carries on much further in life than,
than, than just whatever short amount of time you might be physically able to fight.

(24:02):
Yeah. But it's the ability to control that amygdala hijack moment.
Yeah. Because when you're microdosing adversity, like you will,
you will in every single jujitsu, Muay Thai, Judo, any of those MMA,
any of those, those top tier fighting arts, you do one class of those,
you will be microdosing adversity in a way that will get you very, very close,

(24:24):
you'll get us close safely to touching your own death.
And be able to withdraw every single time you go to class. Yeah.
Especially in jujitsu. Because jujitsu in particular forces its,
its students to consciously make a choice that they have reached the point of death.
Yeah. Which is submission, which is tapping out. Yeah. And that's the whole

(24:45):
game is you kill me and I kill you.
Whereas in striking matches, like I'm going off on a tangent.
Yeah. Real quick. No, go ahead. Striking matches.
It's kind of like I throw a punch at a hundred percent and you get knocked out.
You didn't really have a choice. You just went to sleep. Yeah.
Whereas jujitsu, it's like, my arm's going to break.
This is going to break. I'm falling. I'm getting, I'm getting choked out.
The world's going, I'm looking through a tunnel. All right, I'm done.
And you get used to that feeling.

(25:07):
And so you gain this ability over, over time doing this, where you're okay with,
you're okay facing that feeling and your, your, your amygdala starts to calm
down because it's been here so many times that when the time comes and you,
you back someone into a corner.
Maybe they have a knife, maybe they're holding someone hostage.
You're thinking clearly right now, because earlier that morning or the day before

(25:29):
you just had a 280 pound first degree black belt smashing the dog shit out of you.
And you were, your brain was trying to panic, but you were putting it,
you you're getting more and more comfortable developing the ability to push
back against that adversity.
And that, and that, and that, that, like I said, the, that amygdala hijacked
moment, you can calm yourself down more and you get your heart rate up.

(25:50):
You're learning how to control your heart rate in that level of pressure,
which is one of the things I really enjoyed when you guys came through that, that changed so much.
And, and thinking about how I can continue to get this Marshall out further into the world.
It was fascinating to me to watch your program.
Everyone, everyone was, was kitted up with their heart monitors and,

(26:11):
and before like we were out of the range and people were just loading magazines.
Yeah. And as their magazine slowly started to get more and more full and they
knew the moment of physical exertion and the moment of shooting and potential
danger and things could go wrong, feeling that, that fight or flight moment was coming.
Yep. You, you called me over. I never forgot this. You're like,
Gav, come here and show me. And you show me that little.
Yeah. Panel and you're like, like, look at these numbers. Like these are people

(26:33):
who likely maybe not have, they're not accustomed to this just yet.
Like this is, they're getting nervous.
I was watching like some of their heart rates were slowly going up and some of them were,
calm, completely cool and calm. And it's such a fascinating thing,
but that was the, that's why I think that's the greatest thing you're going
to get from, to go back to what you said, uh, for Brazilian jujitsu and why
people should learn is that ability to control yourself in those moments where

(26:57):
you, your life is on the line.
Yeah. Because jujitsu con forces you to consciously touch that, that moment.
And then, and you can explore it as much as you want, you can stay there and
not tap out and that's your arm. I know plenty of, I'm not going to tap out.
Exactly we know plenty of tough guys stubborn that
just like nope nope crack i do not tap ever yeah

(27:19):
all right well you're gonna go to the hospital yeah exactly sorry have fun
for the next six months in a wheelchair yeah exactly but yeah so there's that
and then there is the physical aspect and i i do consider that to be now that
i've been doing this for so long that is not i know eventually our bodies will
break down and we won't be able to carry that with us anymore the ability to
overwhelm and and and submit somebody's just you know aging bodies that's what happens And,

(27:41):
but it's still, you see police officers and I was, I was so lucky to be able
to help teach the police officers of the Burlington police department jujitsu
because every once in a while I would get to see, I saw their,
I saw the shift in their confidence.
I got to see, occasionally I would get to see the footage, the axon footage,
or I'd see the CCTV footage and I'd watch these officers not just be able to

(28:04):
complete and, and safely take, take detainees to the ground and,
and control them or bring them to the point of negotiation,
but also be able to, to adapt in that moment because they could think clearly.
Like I remember one officer in particular, I don't know if I can,
I'll leave his name out for now, but if you've watched this, I'll know who he is.

(28:24):
But he was responding to a, to a DV outside of a, it was like the middle of
the night and outside of a.
A little breakfast sandwich place. And he was holding one of these gentlemen,
this gentleman, he's holding up against the wall and he starts to fight back.
He hits the takedown that he drilled a million times. He hit it perfectly.
He moved to a position of advantage, which was, he moved to a strong Mount position.

(28:47):
And then usually like he, and he, he gassed the guy out and the other person
was, was lining up to try to like kick him in the face.
And he immediately while controlling him, just takes a taser out and was like,
nope. And then just back off. And I was like, that's like, dude,
look at that. That was so cool to see that.
So you still have these skills that you still get that matter for that job. Yeah.

(29:08):
For, for police officers. Yeah. So there's, those are the two biggest things
that, that I think are, are what, what jujitsu in particular brings to people.
Yeah. Yeah. One thing I always think back on my training with one,
one of the original UFC fighters,
Jason DeLucia, he was like, you know, when they were still bare knuckle fighting UFC and he,

(29:32):
I remember I was training with them and we used to train and every time I'd
come in an hour early before class, because with him, especially when he's there,
you go right into the mat with him.
And you want to talk about being humbled in a microsecond with him.
We were doing a simple judo exercise where you just kind of wrap up and you're
feeling your way around,

(29:53):
you know, to be able to do the throw, you're kind
of shifting weight you're kind of going through this process which
i loved because to me it's like all
right i can even do this with my eyes closed because depending on
how the body moves i can counter it and do the
throw and of course he kicked my ass every time because it's
like his job yeah he's a professional but but

(30:14):
i learned so much again that that's what people don't realize
that is really humbling and you learn a lot it's from
the mistakes you made during practice right during during your
training you're going gonna make mistakes right and it's something
don't be afraid of all right just because you're brand new
to the combatives world or bjj or
judo or whatever it might be yeah you're

(30:35):
gonna get your ass handed to you right if you walk
in with a certain ego your ego just yeah see you later you know and that's what
one thing i love about the martial arts world is that that ego driven type individual
doesn't last because they get humbled right away yes you know i remember you
know back when I was a brown belt and I would get partnered with like.

(30:57):
Brand new guy because again yeah the more advanced guys we
tend to be able to you know not put as much power or
set up the new guy so he can do a throw you're controlling
yourself we can know how to exactly but then
you get these egomaniac white belts who will walk in and just go 100 and you're
like i think that's how every night is yeah it all is yep and i'm like okay

(31:19):
now now it's my turn yeah you know and and it's not like i'm pissed or whatever
but it was to teach a lesson in humility You know, and,
and, and it was hard lesson for people to learn like that, but those who stick
with it, learn it quick and realize that this,
yeah, it's not about your ego.
It's not about, you know, being better than another fighter or anything like

(31:44):
that. It's about yourself.
I was just about to say, it's completely about yourself. Yeah.
It's about being better that way. 1% better than you were yesterday.
Exactly. You were just talking about. Exactly. And it's, it's,
it's tough for people to have that emotional IQ to really understand that it's,
it might be their ego holding them back from getting them onto the mats and,
and, and microdosing that adversity and feeling that discomfort of I'm going to fail in,

(32:10):
I'm going to lose a fight.
And that, especially for, for guys who are in jobs that might require,
require some degree of narcissism. Yeah. That's a very difficult pill to swallow.
Like I think about, you know, military, police officer, when you got to go into
a room and you got to, when you got to go and you have to do your job,

(32:31):
it is you, you are the guy.
No one else in the fucking universe can do this, but you.
And then, and that's necessary for you to do that job and survive and go home
at the end of the day. Yeah.
But when you want to go work on yourself and get better at doing that,
you're going to have to realize that that narcissism or that degree of ego is
going to get in your way because you're going to go up against professionals

(32:53):
and they're going to be better than you. And they are going to bring you to that point.
You're going to end, your brain's going to enter that, that primal mode of I'm
fighting now, just like you said, you're new and you go a hundred percent and
you're going to lose, you're going to fail. And you're going to ask yourself why.
Yeah. And your ego will be like, you know, you can just, you can just say,
you know, you got something else going on.

(33:13):
Next time there's a class, just say there's something else going on.
Yeah. You got to go You got to go to that.
You know, you don't need to make time for that. Look at how big and strong you
are. All you need is strength. Yeah.
And you start giving yourself these excuses. And, and one of the things I always
think about is if you're, if you're test and I always, you know,
like I said, I always wanted this, especially, especially with,
with officers is that if you're, if you're, if your test as to whether or not

(33:36):
you're good at a fight is simply that you haven't been beaten to death yet or
killed, then technically you're undefeated.
You're undefeated until the day that you're, that.
And at that point you're dead. So what does it matter?
Yeah. So, I mean, I always, it was always kind of heartbreaking for me,
for example, like I'd see, or I'd hear about officers that would be on the department

(33:56):
or on other departments out in the world.
And they, and I'll see them on like Gracie breakdowns and stuff where the officer is getting there.
I mean, they're in great physical shape and they're getting there,
they're getting handled, they're getting smeared across the ground,
like, like, like jelly across toast. And it, and it's, and then they still don't do anything about it.

(34:17):
They don't, they don't continue to try to improve themselves.
They go back to the weight room, they lift more weights, but I mean,
it's, it's, it's, it's tough.
It's tough when you have people come in and it's, you have to help be a good
ambassador to make sure they understand that this is part of the program.
This, this failing, this failure and pain is part of the program.

(34:39):
And you need to learn how to welcome that with open arms, because you will someday
day face some person who is going to be, they're going to, they might know everything,
you know, right now, but they're going to be 5% stronger and then it's done.
Then they got you. And so if you're not working on yourself,
especially if you're like a police officer, where most of the times you're going

(35:00):
to be putting your hands on someone, most of the time, they're not going to
be swinging for the fences to take your block off. They can be like, Oh, all right, fine.
Okay, fine. But the second you do that, that that's a grappling match.
The scale of intensity just isn't at the point where you're overwhelmed and
you consider an assault yet or they're resisting arrest, it's just,
okay, we're grappling. I'm grabbing you with this, technically grappling. Yeah.

(35:21):
And that can change in an instant. Like I'm sure you've had as an officer many
times, you grab that and you feel that tension.
And you're like, here we go. Exactly. That's my first thought. Relax, relax, relax.
You say that, relax, relax, relax, relax. And what's interesting is,
again, we're so automatic.
And what we do is the minute I put my hand on and they're already tensed up.
And I'm already doing my move that I want to do just to prepare, just to get ahead of it.

(35:47):
Because again, just like we feel in McDilla Hijack, That guy feels an amygdala hijack too.
That's a human response. Now you're both in that fight or flight mode,
but who's going to get the best of you?
Are you going to allow him to get the best of you, or are you going to allow
yourself to bring yourself back down?

(36:07):
Again, I think I shared with you one of Musashi's quotes is,
if you wish to control others, control yourself. Yeah, I wrote that down.
I was actually bringing that up. I was going through a lot of your stuff,
and I was finding all these quotes from Maymura Musashi, and I was like,
I'm going to add some of these to my list. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well, that's the thing. Like, because it makes so much sense to me is you see,
you know, and I'm sure you've seen it.

(36:28):
You take two cops go into a situation.
One cop is not technically really in control of themselves versus the other
cop who is in control of themselves has that confidence.
And you could literally, the room picks up on it right away.
I mean, again, not to like pat myself, but I've gone into situations where complete

(36:48):
pandemonium chaos, right, whether it's a large fight, whatever it might be.
And the minute I show up and I step out of the cruiser, you could see everyone else like, oh, shit.
He's in charge. Yeah, he's in charge. Like, you know, that command presence that we call.
And I find that, you know, a lot of officers that I know at my PD who train
in jujitsu, martial arts, walking, whatever it might be, they have a different

(37:11):
level of confidence when they go to a call.
They have a different level of cognitive abilities to be able to pick things up. And process.
And process in an instant, because that's the thing with. Correctly, too.
Exactly. And that's the thing with putting yourself in that.
Again, you know, I always say get comfortable.
I think I said that actually when we were training here, when I was training

(37:31):
those cops here, where I said, listen, get comfortable being uncomfortable.
You're going to be uncomfortable. And one of the things I love doing is when
I train is I force cops to be put in uncomfortable positions purposely.
So whether we're about to go on the ground, I will basically set them up like
as if they were just about to get choked out and like figure it out.

(37:51):
How are you going to get out of this? And it's amazing to see those who don't train.
Where I, you know, one, you got to have really good role players,
right? Those who can really control the match, if you want to call it.
And those role players understand their mission. I was like,
listen, you know, just give them a hard time.
Don't choke them out. Don't do anything like that. Just. Make them work. Make them work.

(38:14):
He has to work. Yeah. He has to work to get. If he gets lazy,
then you get to do a good position and just make it worse.
Yeah. And one thing I've noticed is those who don't train revert to deadly force like that.
It's it's if if every problem looks like a nail you're
always going to use exactly yeah exactly and the thing
is though what we've learned in the you know in martial arts where
not everything is a deadly situation right i

(38:36):
mean yeah i could be getting choked out whatever but
guess what i'm able to get out of it and move around now
i'm no longer in that deadly situation that's what
that's what i love about you know training with somebody else me
personally i've always loved training with somebody bigger
than me that's i fucking love it you have you absolutely
have exactly if it doesn't work on the big strong guy exactly this

(38:57):
guy i used to train with all the time chris he was a monster big
fucking dude and man he would make
me work and his punches would hurt you know like
oh my god oh he one time
he clocked me so good in the face and i'm like oh you
got me you know but there's a reason behind
it is because i want to train on a guy like that

(39:19):
because one day which most times i
do i face people like that right especially whether
they're going through like a mental health crisis whatever it might be they're
big they're parasympathetic it's fucking going through the roof there's real
adrenaline and there's fighting exactly not and we all know body mechanics well
um arm's gonna move no matter how big you are a certain way yeah.

(39:43):
And if you're panicked and never trained certain skills, you're not going to
be able to overpower a guy who's going through some sort of crisis safely.
Right. You're going to be in that panic mode, get your baton out and you start
striking and all of a sudden he's getting more and more and more and more and
more, you know, versus, you know, where I've done it before,

(40:04):
where I take someone to the ground and I just hold them and I'm like, calm, breathe.
Like, you know, we're done. Yeah. Like we're not fighting.
Yeah. Yeah, this isn't, this is, it can get worse for you. Yep.
But right now I'm in control and I'm not going to let that happen unless you force it to happen.
Yeah. One of the first things I go over with, with when we're teaching police
officers or even teaching self-defense, especially women's self-defense is the

(40:26):
positions where you find where you want to start striking and what that tells
your opponent when you do.
Like, well, I like to, when, when we were teaching police officers stuff,
we would like to forecast the answers.
So we, we know what their most common people that, that, you know,
you like, maybe I'm in a bad position and it's like, okay, what would I do here? What would I do here?
Like maybe go for my gun. I shoot him and he's dead. And I, you know,

(40:49):
and now I'm, you know, kind of fucked up, but Hey, I'm alive.
But it's like, all right, well, here's why you wouldn't want to do that.
Or striking, for example, it's like, maybe I go strike him.
But problem is like, what did I just tell this guy? If we weren't striking yet
and I swing and I miss, what did I just tell this guy?
It's okay to strike. It's okay. We're striking is now on the table.
We can start punching each other now. And that's just, And now I just escalated

(41:10):
things and I didn't have the position to do that.
So it's, there's such a, there's such a fascinating science to understanding
the, like there's like a, there's like a intelligence in fighting that exists, a fight IQ.
Yeah. And a lot of people don't have that. They don't, they don't possess that.
And to know when is the, when is the right time to pull my pistol?
When is the right time to get to, to decide I'm going to fight?

(41:31):
Yeah. And I really liked that about, about having been able,
as I built this here, I've been able to very closely observe how the firearms instructors here work.
And it's, it's very, there's so many similarities to, to training in a martial
art that it's, and I, and I brought this up with them before.

(41:52):
I was like, you guys know you're, you're martial artists.
You guys are teaching a martial art and they're, I see some of them that I can
see like the, like there's a shift to being like, oh yeah, I guess, I guess you're right.
Yes. Technically it's a, yeah, I guess it's a martial art, I guess. Yeah.
And they, they, they see it and I'm like, yes, I know, I know you see it.
I have this very, very firm vision that there's I believe what's the number, like 42% of adults,

(42:14):
42% of adults in the United States, approximately 88 million people own a gun
and 2.95 million people in the United States train jujitsu, I believe is the number.
And, and there's more across all martial arts, but I'm willing to bet that if
I asked both of those groups, the question, who is responsible for your safety?

(42:37):
If someone preys upon you, I'm willing to bet they would, they would both say,
I am. Yeah. I'm responsible for that.
I trained to prepare for this. This is something I have. I have an answer for that problem. Yep.
And so I think there's a huge crossover that can happen here where we can start
taking a, a massive martial art with the 88 million people, 88 million plus people to.

(43:02):
That have a culture war being waged against it. Yep.
And we can take the concept of martial arts, which has, there is no culture
war against martial arts. No. There's, it's growing, if anything.
You see UFC's growing and Bellator and one championship.
And self-defense, you know, physical self-defense is showing up.
I think there's this huge opportunity for us to start getting the nation,

(43:26):
if not the whole world, to start looking at, at firearm ownership as a martial
art and begin to, to start to shift the, the way we, the way people that might not understand.
Yeah. To look at it as such. Yeah. And we can do that. And I think this place
is, is going to be ground zero for that.
Well, that's, that's what I see. I mean, you know, just talking to some of your

(43:46):
instructors, even when, when I was out here training and the way they present
themselves and the way they talk about weapon manipulation and the mortar skills and all that stuff,
it's, it's, which I could see how, how you see it is, yeah, that's identical to the martial arts.
Like when we talk about grapples, when we talk about, you know,
shifting your weight a certain way in order to affect a hip throw or even how you land,

(44:11):
right you know when we're training we practice break fall
all right how you break your fall yeah you gotta put your hand you know
slam on the mat you know just to ease that throw but that's
that's what i found so i see what you're saying about how with even firearm
ownership having that as a martial art because it gives it a deeper meaning
right to be a firearms owner and i do i do like that a lot because it's true

(44:34):
because you could tell the individuals who are dedicated to that art, i.e.
The gun, how well they are versed in that firearm or how they even carry themselves
throughout life. It's because.
They, to me, they know and understand the power that they possess, right?

(44:54):
And, and that's something we learned in the military early on.
I mean, especially once you go to war.
Yeah. You're like, goddamn, you got pretty much the power of God in your hands.
Yeah. Right. Whether the might of the US military down to the M4.
It's the pinnacle of individual violent technology. Yeah. Is a firearm.
It's precision, it's a precision made instrument that is designed for death.

(45:15):
And we, as if we're applying a martial arts attitude, and I love the way they
describe this here, I, in, in one of our, in our classes in this place,
they, everyone's always like, when is the right time to use a gun?
And the general answer, and I love this, is that when it can be used to save a life.
And I think about the martial arts aspect that these are precision made instruments.

(45:37):
The pinnacle of individual violent technology, and they only,
they should only be used. They're, they're used to kill in the purpose of saving a life.
And I, I really, really, really like that approach.
And that's something that I think, I think we can start to shift people's idea
that this is not just some, that owning a gun is not just some luxury thing

(46:01):
for, for people, it's something you should be trained in and you should understand,
and you should 100% be practicing and forever pushing yourself towards growing in. Yeah.
And, and, and understanding what that means for you as a person to have that remarkable power.
Yeah. To be able to, to, to be, to be responsible with that.

(46:21):
Yeah. And this is a, this is one of those places where I think they take that very seriously.
I like that. They teach you how to, they teach you even whether you're a grandma
that's never shot before in her life or you're some 20 year SF vet.
Like these, these guys here, these aren't just black belts. The guys that teach
here, they're like red belts in this stuff. Yeah.
Oh, that's what I always say. It's fascinating to watch them teach.
Yeah. That's what I always say. I mean, that's one thing I picked up on is they're so...

(46:45):
Good at just even the little things placement
on your of the trigger finger like you know stuff like that just the
very very small minuscule stuff that could make a difference in
how you shoot same thing with the martial arts the very minuscule pinky or you
know ring finger whatever placement you put your hand for to get ready for that
grapple is very very important and just like firearm where we battle drill battle

(47:10):
drill practice you know changing the mag or even in transition drills with a rifle,
well, that's, you're doing the same thing in the martial arts where you transition
from the throat to now you're on the ground. Now you got to transition to something else.
Yeah. It's about, and it's like even martial arts has its own style of equipment.
Like we, yeah, we work in geese. You want to have a good gear to grab onto and move around.
You want to make sure you have like good equipment. Like, do you have to understand

(47:32):
your equipment and how it works and how can you improve?
I just got this, I was telling you about this earlier, this,
this, there's a guy that works here and he started this company called Called carbide grips.
I love the entrepreneurial spirit of this guy. And since he took off with this
thing, it's been like, I haven't been able to find the opportunity to get my
gun in, but I finally did.
Okay. And I just got these awesome grips to be able to, to be able to train

(47:53):
with. Cause I'm starting, as I'm starting to train out on the ranges,
I'm getting, breaking a sweat. Yeah. Hands are getting dirty.
Yep. This guy has this remarkable recipe for his, for the firearms he works on. Oh, awesome.
Yeah. Yeah. I actually. Do you have one to show? Yeah. I was shooting this morning.
It. I was hoping you'd ask.
Yeah, yeah. Bring it over. Yeah, yeah. Bring it over. I'd love to see it.

(48:15):
No, it is phenomenal, man. It just, man, this grip just seals right to you.
Oh, wow. It's phenomenal, dude.
So I actually, a little fun hobby for myself, I like to paint mod.
If they want to see it, yeah.
Carbide grips. That guy kills it, man. I have a hobby on the side. I like to.

(48:37):
I like to paint models. I like to like build and paint models.
Yeah. One of the things I'll always do looking at other people's work is I like
to look at line work because I like to see, it's not just like,
okay, it's sandy and it feels good.
I look deep into the grooves. I look into the recesses, the textures,
and I try to find like, okay, did he, did he go over the line?
Did he get this guy? And he puts out videos of his stuff like every other week

(48:59):
he's built, he's doing some of their build and I'll, I'll sit there and I'll
watch that video multiple times and I'll look for, I'll I'll look for wherever
he may have made a mistake.
I don't find one, man. This guy takes so much pride in his stuff.
Well, again, you perfect the skill set, right?
So yeah, what I'll do is after I've done the show notes, I'll add his website
and stuff like that if people want to order.

(49:20):
Does he have that? Yeah, does he have a website and all that?
Yeah, I think he has an Instagram.
Yeah, I'm certain he has an Instagram. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just,
yeah, we'll add that to the show notes. That way people.
But it's all this equipment that like as I've been here and you get to see the
experts who take their job seriously And they, it's just like a martial artist.
Like I need to understand, like my equipment is my hands, my mind,

(49:42):
my body. I have to train in it.
I have to understand it and I have to help it grow in the same way that I have
to, like the G10 grips that that 320 AXG Legion came with.
Fantastic. But I can, I can do more.
I can do more and I can, I can make it better. And it's my responsibility.

(50:02):
It's my primal responsibility to secure my own
survival in this world yeah i should continue to work on
myself yeah mentally physically emotionally yeah and
then that's the thing i think people don't understand with
with that type of mindset is it's it
is about that it's more working internal that way the external doesn't bother

(50:24):
you as much we'll call it we'll tell you you know we'll put it that way or if
you're able you know as a cop you go into a situation and i mean did you i don't
I know there was this good video of a couple of cops.
I think it was at some parade or something, a fight broke out and man,
they were able to handle themselves where one cop was about to get tackled.
He sprawled, took the guy down. Oh yeah. Took the guy down to the ground.

(50:48):
And, and you look at it though, not once did the cop throw a punch or anything like that.
You just took him down and the kid knew fights over. I'm over.
I'm outmatched. Yeah. Like I'm done. There's a fire. There's a,
it's a whole like being in a gunfight. You get that fire superiority.
The same thing exists in physical altercation. Yep. Like.

(51:09):
If you are clearly outmatched, you're going to be overwhelmed.
Your OODA loop is going to be fucked up, and you're going to be running and
on the defense. Even if you're on the ground, if you're in a striking match,
being pushed into a corner, same rules apply.
And that guy sounds like he got that fire superior. Oh, yeah.
And his partner jumped in, too, to help him because somebody came from behind the cop.

(51:30):
And I loved it. His partner just
literally did a head sweep type thing and just threw him to the ground.
I haven't seen it. Oh, you got, I'll, I'll share it with you.
Uh, I'll share it with you. It was an amazing, like, I'm like,
Ooh, these guys owned like a crowd of 15, 20 people, you know, just sit man all done.
You know, they're working together and they know what they're doing.

(51:50):
This is an opponent that is clearly, they are clearly prepared.
Yeah. They came here, they're a hard target and I might be an easy one.
Exactly. So maybe I just won't fight. Maybe I just won't get involved.
When I was working as a bouncer, there'd be moments like that too, or it'd
be like me and another guy and you know the place is packed with
hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people and a big fight

(52:11):
breaks out but you go in there and you laid it you you establish
that fire superiority and and like there's space and
you're able to do a little jiu-jitsu and it clearly looks like you know what
you're doing because you move and then stop in an instant because you know what
positions to get to and where you need to stop and that person is on the ground
looking like they're completely being hit by a tidal wave of physical momentum

(52:32):
yeah that that sends messages out so To me, it's, it's, it's funny.
So there's this thing that I, I, I wrote a, I wrote about it in,
in, uh, on Havoc Journal.
I call it psychological ambush, right? Where you fuck up the other guy's good
loop purposely because it makes me think of, so this one quick story I had,
this mechanic shop, this several years ago when I was still on patrol,

(52:53):
this mechanic shop, you know, the owner is calling a report that his credit
card was used by one of his employees.
Now this employee is a big dude, right? He rugged, big guy.
Has quite the history in terms of criminal, like very violent criminal history.
And you're like, Ooh, all right, this is a good one. So did the leg work was

(53:14):
able to catch like, you know, camera footage of him going on to different stores
and stuff like that, buying gas, whatever.
So yeah, got the probable cause, got the arrest warrant, all that stuff.
Now comes obviously a moment of truth, you know, and he had no idea this was
going on in the background because it was investigation, stuff like that.
And I've been in contact with the owner.
So I asked the owner, Hey, when is he working again? Oh, he'll be working. We'll say Monday.

(53:35):
Okay. I'll be, I'm going to head down Monday and we're going to take him into custody.
So owner already knew this was happening. The mechanic had no idea.
I mean, I spoke to the mechanic a handful of times, but nothing really that
would say, yeah, you're, you're in trouble type thing, you know?
So I go down there and this guy, again, big dude.
And one, I put myself in a bad position.

(53:59):
I knew you right away because the owner of the store was like,
oh yeah, you can use my office. I'm like, oh, okay.
I didn't, wasn't really thinking much of it.
One, well, one, I was thinking, all right, let's get him out of the mechanic
shop because there's plenty of tool weapons, weapons, plenty of weapons.
So I was going to just have him come outside to talk to me and then take him
into custody. And at the time my partner was on his way.

(54:21):
So I had, I had some time to kind of kill.
So I go into this office. I'm like, shit. Trapped. Yeah.
Trapped, small area, only one door in and out. Exactly. And I'm like, damn it.
So, and he was at the end, cause he walks in, he's at, you know, he's at the door.
I'm like, God damn it. all right i don't like where i'm at so i

(54:41):
start talking to the guy and what i start doing is kind
of moving around the desk and he's moving the other
direction i'm like oh we're gonna keep doing this yeah i get myself to
that yeah i get myself to that door so i get myself to that
door and he realized he's at
a disadvantage now he's like he's trapped now he's trapped
now yeah and i took him into custody no like after that no problem because that

(55:04):
to me with him i mean i i spoke to some green about it just to kind of get there
like you know what the hell was that and he's like dude what you did was like
predator and prey circling each other or predator and predator circling each other,
and the other guy realized that you just beat him psychologically because you
put him in a position he didn't want to be in versus you staying in that position

(55:26):
dude the mind is so fascinating like that yeah i've i've paid more and more
attention to this i've been i've been reading a lot about like psychology that
goes into not just, not just like combative scenarios.
But how our brain is, it's this thing that's designed to keep us alive.
And it's always, it's always that, that amygdala is always scanning for threats. Always.

(55:47):
And, and it's also this thing that's like, it steers us away from pain and suffering,
which is how our OODA loop gets fucked with, which is why when you microdose
it, you start getting comfortable with it.
And it's not as scary to be in that unpleasant scenario.
No. Like, I'm sure he had no idea you were freaking out a little bit.
Oh yeah, no, yeah, exactly. I'm sure he didn't see that.
I'm sure he didn't see that. Just walking around, just looking at him.

(56:07):
I'm sure it was, but in your heart. Oh yeah, my heart rate was up.
But you trained, but you trained.
So you knew that feeling and you're like, okay, I'm going to,
and he, and you probably saw like he's shifting position and then he folded
because he doesn't microdose adversity.
He doesn't push himself. He's used to being big and that scares people and he's crazy.
He gets what he wants. And those are his thing. You, not as big as he was, but you train for it.

(56:30):
Comfortable with pain yeah and even you
know how to you know when you touch it yeah it's going
to be okay like in your gut you knew it was going to be
okay like i can touch this fear and i can still do my job and i can still make
decisions i love that shit it's such a fascinating well that's what it is it's
because i i myself i'm always fascinated with with how someone perceives the

(56:53):
world even like even perception right and and for this guy his his perception was was,
shit, I just lost, right?
And you could tell even with him. When I was taking him into custody, I mean, he was still –.
Like tense, but he may have been feeling out his, like, what could I get away
with? Exactly. And you had the advantage. Yeah, exactly.

(57:14):
And that's the thing, like, like to have, but again, though,
that comes with training and skills, right.
To have that, to have that confidence in that superior, you know,
you're, you're like superior to this individual because yeah, you're right.
This individual, he got around the world by violence and.
You know, being arrested a bunch you know all kinds of shit so to
him he's not as adverse he's he

(57:36):
he has that diversity to withstand pain but he
was always the guy like you said wins every fight never really
fought somebody probably who's skilled versus now
oh shit there's that read yeah that read when you
look at someone you're like this guy's confident and he's not scared of me
yeah it's very fucking simple very very real
like i had a situation when i was working at i was working

(57:57):
at i was working at a bar in downtown burlington and it
was just me and another guy on and we had this dude who
he was such a pain in the fucking ass but
he he he had calmed down so we
we had we had we had like banished him from
coming to the club for like six months yeah and then
he came back he's like look i'm sorry everything's cool okay cool

(58:18):
you know he comes in everything's going fine and
of of all the the times for something
to happen a whole bunch of and this rarely happened
at this bar but it was a bunch of 81s that showed up
so there's a bunch of hell's angels show up okay and it
the the thing with these hell's angels they were they were working with alongside
another motorcycle club that i think was looking to patch over yeah and i think

(58:43):
they were there was a bunch of dudes in there that were wearing prospect okay
clothes prospect stuff but they looked fucking weathered Yeah.
Of like Hell's Angel Prospect. And, and, and I was told on the side,
like, yeah, those guys are actually the top dogs.
They're just trying to get attention off of them out in public.
And I think they're here to observe the new recruits that might be patching
over. And I'm like, fuck.

(59:04):
And so I've got this one dude who is like, he thinks he's this gangbanger.
And then I have, there was like nine or 10 HA and, and this other club patching over.
And I was like, oh Jesus fuck. It's me and this other guy. Yeah.
Yeah. And, and we ended up having like, they ended up getting into it and me
and this other guy, we were both heavily training in jujitsu and gets into,

(59:29):
there was an altercation by the bathroom.
They start chirping at each other that were, that were tripping with this, this gangbanger.
And they wave over the other, like the, like the new joins or the prospects
of HA, not the actual, but like not the, not the fake prospects that we think
were the top dogs, but the actual ones come up. So they start moving over.

(59:50):
And then as soon as they see the HA start coming over, they start fighting this
guy two on one and me and this other guy jump in and we just pounce on all three
of them. And like we hem them all up. Yeah.
We get them all controlled. They're all wearing big, thick leather,
leather coats. So we were able to control them.
And by the time AJ get there, like the bartenders have started to clear,
they're moving through the crowd, people are getting the hell out of the way,
but we're so in control of the situation.

(01:00:10):
We took the top position right away. Yeah. We weren't fucking hurting anyone.
Yeah. And like, they all start moving up on us, but they, they,
they kind of kept their distance.
I think they weren't ready for the level of intensity we brought it to that quickly.
Yeah. And how quickly we got the situation under control physically.
Yeah. And they, that little bit of time of
hesitation where they showed up to the scene this wasn't these

(01:00:34):
guys were not ha and like i feel
like we we got we got we just by the skin of
our teeth made it in and but because we could get control of that situation
everything started to calm back down the ha guys were like all right oh yeah
these guys fucked up and we were like we were just and then we were able to
talk them things back down yeah nobody was hurt yeah everyone just had a little

(01:00:54):
bit of hurt pride they were on the ground They couldn't like both on neon belly.
One dude was literally just like backed away that the gangbanger was like vanishing
into the crowd by this point.
And so we were like, Hey, this is what went down. Um.
Your buddy is here. Like they had a little bit too much to drink.
Hey man, we're just trying to make money. We're trying to feed our family.
And then we were able to like talk to them because they didn't come over and
see punches flying and blood spraying all over the place, which would have sent them through. Oh yeah.

(01:01:19):
Oh yeah. It was that jujitsu, that control over our mind, that control over
the situation and everything started to, to it, it, it just,
the sizzle, you know, it slowly turned down to a simmer and then it finally calmed down.
So when you, when you were talking about this, I was, I was like, oh shit, I know.
I remember this one moment when you were talking about that one huge guy that

(01:01:42):
boxed you in and you were like, actually, I'm in trouble. I'm in charge.
Even though you could very easily be in charge, you clearly think I'm in charge
because I know how to feel this feeling and you're not as comfortable with it. Yeah.
And that, that came to my mind. I was like, ah, yeah, this one time. Yeah.
I mean, that could have been really bad. Well, that's the thing.

(01:02:02):
I trade for this. Well, that's the thing, because we eventually got the edge.
Exactly. I mean, you take for granted when you train a lot and get yourself
skillful and you're learning every day and every day you're you're you're bettering
yourself because, you know.
So we have a couple of cops at my job where they took one eight hour BJJ type class.

(01:02:24):
And I remember next to that roll call, you know, like, yeah,
you're going to keep going or what?
And, you know, they were like, no, no, I don't need that.
I mean eight hours is enough I'm like no it's not and
my thought is this officer he's
very ego driven type guy I'm like his ego got bruised yeah I bet you that he

(01:02:44):
got fucking plastered which is to me I love like fucking put me to work and
you know you'll be my friend you know what I mean like because I get it actually
exactly and and that's that's what I like I like a challenge like that.
And with him, he did not like it, obviously. And I'm like, yeah,
but you're missing out on what.
What you're actually doing. I said, you're getting yourself there.

(01:03:06):
I was like an eight hour introductory class is nothing.
I mean, I wouldn't, I shouldn't say eight hour. It was probably like a four hour.
It's not going to fully, it's just like a four hour use of force class for police
departments. It's not going to be enough.
You have to keep doing it. It's just like, you can't go to the range once.
And like, you can't go to the range of the Academy and being like,
I know, I now know how to shoot.

(01:03:26):
I'm good. Yeah, exactly. Until I got a qual in a year. And then I, Oh fuck.
I freak out for a little while. No, you got to keep on it. exactly it's your job exactly
so i mean it's it's it's fascinating that
you're bringing basically everything we've
talked about kind of bringing that mentality into
the the combative side over at sig and really hone in on people's you know abilities

(01:03:50):
to persevere right there like we have an amazing resilience system in us as
humans you know we've been through a lot of and.
To me, combatives really hone in that primal instinct because it's so different
than punching a punching bag.

(01:04:11):
It's so different than, yeah, I could throw weights around, strength training, all that shit.
But until you step into the ring with someone, it's a whole different.
Yep. And you know they're coming. And you know they're coming.
Exactly. And that competitive, that's why I like to compete as well.
Yeah. And it's, cause that's where you're allowed to touch.
That's where you're allowed to play at that level. Yeah. And it's okay.

(01:04:31):
Hey, if you get hurt, that's part of the program. Yeah. If you're in training
and you're getting fucking hurt, that's too far.
Exactly. Training, you should be, you're no one's, no one's trying to win training.
No. You win competitions. You don't win training. You just, you go to training
to suck and then get better at that. Exactly.
But yeah, it's a very different, it's a, people don't like touching that.
I mean, and, and it's not totally, it's not, it's literally just how we're designed.

(01:04:54):
Our brains are designed to steer away from hardship when really it's the hardship.
It's, it's the hard road.
Yeah. Yeah. I see what you did there. It's the hard road.
You have to, you have to, if you want to, if you want to be better at fighting,
if you want to be better at lifting weights, what do you do?
You go lift weights. Yeah, exactly.
You don't say, you know, I'm just going to, you know, I'll get better at lifting

(01:05:16):
weights by, I'll lift this five pound weight a bunch of times,
like 50 times and I'll put, and then I'm done.
No, you go and you push yourself. You create hypertrophy and you,
you create pain and then you get stronger from that pain. And some of the best
things that come in life come through pain. Oh yeah.
And it's, it's that, it's that pain that like referring to that gentleman you,
you previously worked with who avoided that because he got hurt and that was,

(01:05:41):
and his brain says, I got hurt.
We don't go, we don't want this again. Yeah. I don't want that fucking,
fuck that. I'm not coming back. Yeah.
And, and I've seen that too. I've seen it in jujitsu. It's, it's,
you see that too all the time because it's so much more intense.
That primal loss, that primal sense of failure is so much more intimate when

(01:06:02):
you have to look someone else in the face and say, I submit myself to you. Please have mercy.
Yeah. And if all you do is work out in the gym all the time,
you're stacked full of muscle, you're fucking shredded.
If you look like that and you put in all that work and you're able to push through
that style of perseverance and then some 110-pound sorority girl chokes you
out, you're not going to – it's going to be tough to come back and stand up for that. Oh yeah.

(01:06:27):
I mean, I mean, so I went to Bakersfield with my training program and trained
10 other officers and we had this one officer, he, he bodybuilder,
like again, ripped all nine yards, everything, you know, even had the perfect hair.
I think I called him like Tom Cruise or something like, yeah,
perfect hair and all that shit.
But the minute we put him into scenarios where he had to go hands-on,

(01:06:49):
he got humbled quick because he didn't have enough gas in the tank to handle that.
So, and, and that's what I always say with training, training comes.
Yeah. You could train to be a long distance runner.
You can train wind sprints, all that good shit, but you have enough after that
foot chase to finish it. Yeah.

(01:07:10):
Right. I love that about the, the program that you did with BJJ cops when everyone was hooked up
and they were just, and the, I remember like we had to hold that,
that just had to hold one of your head and the other dude had to hit 20 calories
and you just had to sit there and you were, and you pointed out,
you're You're like, the other guy is going to fight and he's going to keep fighting.
And in the simulation, it's fighting until you get to your 20 calories.

(01:07:32):
That's you showing up on scene and then you're going to fight too.
So it's like, that's real. Yeah.
Guys did such you guys were very very skilled with that i'm really
excited to have you guys back yeah no again us us
coming back i mean that's a later conversation but but in
order to again like putting all that together is to me is a holistic approach

(01:07:53):
to training versus you know just the one skill set right i mean yeah it's great
to have the skill set in firearms it's great to have that skillset and that
mindset when you're, you know, take on this,
this piece of metal that literally life and death is right there and you're
able to dedicate your time to it.
But there's other aspects to not just the firearm, to being human, right?

(01:08:18):
Being able to be skillful at combatives or being, I mean, any sort of skill
you need to develop it over time, right?
And in In order, again, to me, I train the way I explain it.
I train for that final fight.
Like, it may come one day. Or it may not. I don't know.
But guess what? I'm training for it. Because one day, who I'm facing is me.

(01:08:42):
Right? I'm here with you, man. We're on the same wavelength.
That's my fear, if you want to call it, is linking up with someone,
a bad version of me. He knows everything you know.
Yep. Everything I know. 5% better.
Exactly. exactly that's the guy i'm fighting so when i have like
you know i have a mirror in my gym and when i'm really fucking working
and i say to myself i'm like fuck you dude let's go like

(01:09:05):
i need to be that much better and those are the ones unfortunately you find
with a lot of law enforcement officers they don't have that sort of mindset
where one day i'm gonna face myself you know and that like you said that twin
doppelganger whatever you want to call him Is that 5% better?
He's just enough. Just enough. Just enough to kill you. Exactly. And he's coming.

(01:09:27):
That moment is screaming through the universe right now. Exactly.
Coming to you. Every single human being has the worst day of their life.
Yep. Screaming through the universe. Yep.
Their way and what are they doing to just be prepared for that?
What are they doing physically to get ready for that?
What are they doing mentally to prepare themselves for that? Yeah.
For that, for that, for that collapse, are you going to be able to stand back up afterwards?

(01:09:50):
Are you going to be able to fight like, like every day you put in the gym,
like every day you put in the gym, every day you train, every day you go on
the range, every day you educate yourself in how the mind works or in how the world works.
That one person that you were going to meet up that would kill you,
he only hurts you and that one person who is going to hurt you,
well, he only hurts you a little bit.

(01:10:12):
That person who was going to hurt you a little bit, doesn't hurt you at all.
And that person who didn't hurt you at all, he completely cooperated.
And it's like every day you're, you're moving, you're climbing up that rung
and you're putting people that might wish you that, that might be the,
the, the harbinger of that terrible day. Yeah.
They're moving down the ladder, they're moving down the ladder and you're moving
past them and you're, you're developing this warrior, you know,

(01:10:35):
you know, mindset, this warrior philosophy that, you know, I'm not going to
be that harbinger for someone else unless they come to do it for me.
Exactly. I'm going to spread this kindness throughout the world.
Yeah. I'm going to help enrich others that come near me. I'm going to be that warrior in a garden.
Yeah. And that's why I love your, I love your project. I love the podcast.
I love everything. I'm really happy to be here today. Yeah. No,
it's, it's, it's great to be here ourselves.

(01:10:56):
And I always like, you know, we're getting close to that time where I like to
finish off the show with usually our guests would, uh, give like a one piece
of advice out to the, whether it's law enforcement, military,
civilian world, like, you know, what advice or what sort of,
what's something somebody can take with them.
That, you know, if they're working a shift tonight, that for them to really

(01:11:18):
think about in terms of, you know, BJJ or anything that you can think of that
they'd want to take tonight just to think about.
Oh, I shoot, man. There's so much.
I, I, I, I pressure is pressure is a, is a privilege.
It's a privilege to be able to be placed under some kind of pressure.

(01:11:40):
I mean, something's expected of you. and you should honor those moments that
are going to be difficult because that's what's going to, it's going to give
you that story to tell, to share with others, to inspire other people.
Yeah. It's, it's, it's the whole pain through perseverance. Yeah. No, I like that.
It's, it's our perseverance through pain. That's what it was.

(01:12:01):
Perseverance through pain. Perseverance through pain. Yeah.
And it's, it's, you have to, what's on the other side is so wonderful. It really is wonderful.
Like even for myself, like my story right now, When I'm trying to build here,
like I am, I am tired all the time, physically, mentally, but it's not just
because my flesh is weak.

(01:12:22):
Doesn't mean the deeds that, that I'm doing won't endure and that'd be something
someone else would be proud to inherit.
Just like what you're doing. Yeah. You know, it's an odd police officers that
volunteer that, that, that stand up and, and help others. I want to be there
for people on the worst day of their life.
Firefighters, EMTs, you're tired.
But the deeds, the deeds will endure. Yeah. The deeds will endure.

(01:12:44):
There's a, over at 22 Mohawks, the CEO, the owner, the founder,
Dave Camposano, he always says, deeds, not words.
Yeah. So that's kind of. Thing that, you know, his motto at the bottom of his
details. It's not talk. No, it's not talk. It's not about talk.
Don't talk about yourself. Exactly. Just do it. People will see it.
And I'll speak so much more.
Exactly. Exactly. And that, that's what I always tell, you know,

(01:13:04):
advisors. I said, well, what do you want to do? I want to do this. Well, then do it.
Yeah. What's stopping you? Execute. Yeah, go.
That's why my battalion commander over in Iraq, he always used to say,
he's like, always on the attack.
Even to this day, he texts me after we go back and forth.
And he's like, remember, Sarge, always on the attack.
My old first start is the same way from the Marines. Always on the attack.

(01:13:26):
Just execute. Do what you got to do.
That's great. But Gavin, thank you so much. Thanks for having me,
man. This was awesome. Yeah, this was really wonderful.
It was a great conversation, man. Absolutely, man. So everyone,
uh, hope you got something out of this.
Check out SIG Academy on their website for the announcement.
When the BJJ combative side kind of goes full launch and, um,

(01:13:49):
you know, feel free to email us for any, uh, comments,
uh, or suggestions, or even, you know, even if you have questions for Gavin,
you know, Florida Moff Tam and, uh, and actually we could put your email address
probably in the show notes. We'll, we'll add all that later on.
Yeah. All right, man. All right, everyone. Well, thank you for joining us and stay safe.
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