April 11, 2025 • 22 mins
Proptech Pulse Podcast: The Evolution and Future of MLS with Greg Robertson
Episode Summary
In this insightful episode of PropTech Pulse, host Kyle Hunter welcomes Greg Robertson, a 30-year veteran of real estate technology. Robertson, who founded his first real estate software company in 1992 and most recently sold W&R Studios (creators of Cloud CMA) to Lone Wolf in 2020, shares his expert perspective on the changing landscape of Multiple Listing Services (MLS). The conversation covers the evolution of MLS from physical books to today's post-settlement environment, current challenges facing the industry, and predictions for the future of real estate data sharing and ownership.
Topics Covered
- The three stages of MLS evolution (MLS 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0)
- Impact of the NAR settlement on cooperation and compensation models
- Current market challenges affecting MLSs and real estate professionals
- The balance between technological innovation and legal compliance
- MLS consolidation trends and data sharing models
- Data ownership debates and broker-of-choice implications
- Strategies for MLSs to thrive in the changing landscape
Key Quotes
- "We're in the MLS 3.0 stage where... what used to be the two pillars of MLS, which were cooperation and compensation... mandatory compensation is gone."
- "The top 23 [MLSs] represent a million of those 1.5 million realtors. So it's a very long tail."
- "The best marketing is having a great product. When you have a great product, marketing takes care of itself."
- "Be so good they can't ignore you... focus on the things you can control."
About Greg Robertson
Greg Robertson has been in the real estate technology industry for about 30 years. He started his first real estate software company in 1992, shipping software on 5¼-inch floppy disks. His most recent venture, W&R Studios with flagship product Cloud CMA, was acquired by Lone Wolf in December 2020. Greg is known for his insights on MLS systems and real estate technology trends.
Resources Mentioned
- MLS Reset conference
- Clear Cooperation policies
- NAR settlement and its implications
PropTech Pulse: From the entrepreneur's desk to the industry front lines and into real-world operations – taking the pulse of real estate technology in just 20 minutes.
https://www.lwolf.com/podcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
From the entrepreneur's desk to the
industry front lines and intoreal-world operations.
I'm Aaron Cardell, joined byKyle Hunter and Jake Hamilton.
And we're here to take the pulseof real estate technology in
just 20 minutes.
Hello everyone, and welcome toPrompt Tech Pulse.
Today we have the fabulous GregRobertson.
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
Thank you for using my my Twitter moniker there, uh
Kyle.
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
Oh well, Greg, uh, we're happy to have you today.
Um let's start out.
Maybe uh tell us a little bitabout yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
Yeah, um, I've been in the uh real estate technology
industry for about 30 years.
I started my first real estatesoftware company back in 1992,
if you can believe it.
We uh we shipped software onfive and a quarter floppies and
boxes, and now we went fromboxes to the cloud, whatever
that means.
And uh, but I've had about youknow three companies in that
(00:57):
time.
My last company was WR Studios,our flagship product was Cloud
CMA, and um we actually that'swhere we met, I sold my company,
WNR Studios, my business partnerDan Woolley and I sold it to
Lone Wolf back in uh December of2020, which seems like a
lifetime ago, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
It sure does.
Uh but it hey, it was one of ourone of our greatest uh mergers,
I think.
SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
So yeah, thank you.
Yeah, I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
So um I we have quite a few questions today to
go through and uh I want to gothrough a kind of rapid session,
but you know, coming off uh lastweek, I was uh had the ability
to to attend the inaugural MSMLS reset, which I thought was a
great event and just a lot ofgood topics, conversation, a lot
of things that came out of it.
(01:46):
And so you know, really justkind of piggyback on that, I'd
love to um talk a little bitabout you know the evolution and
the future of of MLS, but let'sstart out by you know, from your
perspective, um, you know, whatis the current state of the MLS?
Maybe over the past decade, howhas that uh evolved and as far
(02:06):
as the landscape?
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
Yeah, it's gone through quite a bit of changes.
I mean, um, I you might haveI've heard this, I've said this
on stage, but I think MLS hasgotten kind of we're in the MLS
3.0 stage where MLS 1.0 wasbasically you had an
organization, they had books,right?
Where you know had all thelistings in a book.
And um, you know, agents werebasically gatekeepers of the
(02:28):
data.
You couldn't see, know what wason the market really.
And so unless you saw a for salesign in a in a a lawn or you
knew an agent, right?
Uh that to me is what I wouldqualify as MLS 1.0.
MLS 2.0 is the advent of theinternet, right?
So now um listings areeverywhere, like realtor.com was
launched in 2000 or 1995-ish,96, and then Zillow about 10
(02:52):
years later, and now listingsare everywhere.
Agents are no longer thegatekeepers, and uh they've got
to find up new ways of ofworking that way, right?
And you know, we basically atthat point also um were able to
put the internet in the palm ofour hands here with our with our
mobile phones.
And I think right now um we'rean MLS 3-0, right?
This this third version.
(03:12):
And that that wasn't, you know,the last the last version was
brought to us by technology, theinternet.
This one unfortunately came tous because of the uh of a uh
lawsuit in Missouri, right?
And a subsequent settlement fromNAR afterwards.
So now what used to be uh uh thetwo pillars of MLS, which were
cooperation and compensation,compensation now, mandatory
(03:35):
compensation is gone.
And now agents and brokers haveto find themselves how to kind
of how to do business in thisnew world where compensation
isn't just a foregoneconclusion.
So um that's how I kind of lookat things right now.
There's some other things here,but that to me is in a nutshell
there, high level.
SPEAKER_01 (03:52):
Yeah, no, and I know that that really uh disrupted um
all of the industries, you know,beyond the MLSs and you know,
obviously just the need torequire, you know, have the
buyer broker agreement up frontto even show a property and just
all the changes that you knowagents or brokerages are having
to navigate today.
Um, but with that said, maybedrill down a little further and
(04:13):
what kind of the key challengesthat MLSs are are facing today,
now that they, you know, one bigcomponent of that value
proposition is is gone away.
Uh, you know, what are some ofthose other uh challenges that
they're they're looking to tryto uh overcome today?
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
Yeah, I mean, as I said, there are two pillars I
think of an MLS were cooperationand compensation.
Now that you know compensationis taken away, um, MLSs have to
really focus on that cooperationaspect.
What how can they get thesebrokers together to cooperate
together if there's no, youknow, there used to be a carrot
and a stick, and now the carrothas gone away as far as being
(04:52):
compensation.
So what tools can they do?
What things can they enactwithin their MLS organizations
to really foster cooperation?
Um, cooperation to me is anotherword for community, for
communication, right?
So I think those are thechallenges.
And then you have the otherthing that's a challenging that
is really, you know, coming tobear here is is the market
overall, right?
(05:12):
I mean, we have anextraordinarily tough market.
I mean, I think it was thelowest number of transactions.
Uh interest rates rose higherand quicker than historically in
70 years.
Affordabilities, you know, um,you know, most people can't even
buy a home anymore.
Um, so there's you know,interest rates, as I said, you
(05:33):
know, went up.
Um, it's just challenging forall those things.
And that kind of market umfosters uh a lot of problems for
brokers and agents.
If there's less transactions, umthat that's not a good thing for
any of us, right?
Especially those in the uh inthe MLS world or in the vendor
world that sells tools to agentsfor sure.
SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
You know, I guess uh I saw whereyou know the housing units were
that online with 1995, like andso uh there was a lot more, a
lot higher population back then.
So um, you know, you're havingto find more folks to do more
things with.
And I know that, you know, umobviously that comes with a lot
(06:15):
of change.
I was on with uh an MLS providerearlier today, and you know,
there was 150 new members thatwere right there in the
training.
And so how are they able tocontinue to keep that demand up
and you know, to make itimportant for membership to you
know retain at the levels thatthey're at?
SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I I I you
know I go to a lot of events,right?
So I was at the Inman New Yorkuh Connect, and one of the
speakers there was uh MikeKilpredi, right?
And he talked about thedichotomy of there's less
transactions, but there's moreof a pool of commissions out
there because the houses thatare in there right now are worth
(06:57):
appreciably more, right?
So maybe back in 1995, or let'slet's use a better example,
2019, maybe there was you know35 billion in in in
commissionable dollars that youcould get, right?
Even though you can talk aboutthe transactions getting lower,
the number of things gettinglower.
(07:19):
The fact is, since 2019, theappreciation of the homes has
gotten higher, which means theamount available for commissions
is actually higher than it everhas been, right?
So there's maybe less, butthere's more to be making from
less, if that makes any sense.
So I don't know how that canfactor anybody's strategies, but
um, I always hate the doom andgloom of things, and I try to
(07:42):
find some bright spots.
And I I heard that from Mike,and I'm like, well, we should
share that with people, thatit's not such a uh doom and
gloom, right?
SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
Yeah, no, and I agree.
I mean, there's there'ssomething in it that makes folks
continue to to join theindustry, and and you know, um
we have to keep plugging along.
So, with that said, when youhave um these changes in the
market, how are MLSs adapting tokind of the new new demands of
(08:10):
technology, uh the new thingsthat are available to them and
um you know, really how thatplays within the prop tech
ecosystem?
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I'll I'll be honest with
you.
For MLSs right now, they've beenso mired in, you know, uh
depositions and reading throughlegal documents because of the
lawsuits.
Um, you can look back at 2024,hardly any of them had any time
to really introduce any new techor try to, you know, or get
(08:40):
anybody's attention.
And that goes for the same thingfor vendors like Lone Wolf or
some other companies of gettingtheir attention because they've
been so focused with with thosewith those lawsuits.
Now that the settlement is isenacted, it's a brand new year.
Um I hope we'll see a thawing itout there.
Um, you know, and and you know,there are some some um some
(09:02):
people that are saying thatthere's gonna be more
transactions this year, maybenot a lot more, but at least
more.
Um, maybe we'll see some thawingout of some more innovation and
new companies coming up ononline, or uh there has been a
lot of new innovation.
I know you guys have done a lotof new innovation, but it's hard
to get anybody to pay attentionbecause they've been so mired in
in all these legal battles,right?
(09:23):
Even the brokerages, a lot ofbrokerages had the same kind of
lawsuits.
So they for them to focus onlike somebody coming out with
some new technology, it's beentough.
And I hope that 2005, 2025, Ishould say, um, you know, thaws
things out so that we can beginto kind of look towards the
future again in in regards totechnology and other things.
SPEAKER_01 (09:43):
Yeah, no, and I, you know, to your point, I've uh
spoke with a few industryleaders, mostly in the franchise
world, um, this year, thatreally they're in, they're
turning the page.
Let's move forward.
You know, there was election,there was um, you know,
Sisabranet, there was all thedifferent things that were just
creating chaos last year, andobviously with the market.
(10:04):
Um, now it's really focused on,okay, how do we go forward?
How do we move forward and andcontinue to grow our brands,
grow our um, you know, marketshare?
Um, with that said, what areMLSs?
You know, there's a lot ofchanges, you know, whether it's
uh, you know, Phoenix tryingsomething new or you know,
Alabama or different differentMLSs, what what are some of the
(10:25):
innovative ideas that you'reseeing from MLSs um to really
pivot and and change the way uhthat they are working to you
know increase um you know valueto their members?
SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
Yeah, I I think there's kind of two things out
there, right?
Number one would be MLS are arestarting to do what I would call
like MLS-led technologyinitiatives or MLS-owned things
where they have hired their owndevelopers and they're
developing their own software.
They're they're becoming theirown software companies before
they would license softwaretechnology solutions from other
(11:00):
vendors.
Some of them are becomingvendors themselves, where they
not only create software fortheir own use, but they'll go to
out there and try to sell it toother MLSs.
Kind of this like um built forMLSs for ML, you know by MLSs
for MLSs kind of thing.
So you see a bit about that.
Um you see in MLSs makinginvestments in some other
vendors.
And this is this hasn't happenedfor a while now, but you've seen
(11:23):
that before because they've seensome prop tech vendors go on to
have success by being acquiredand they want to participate in
that.
Um, you know, and you know, it'sit's just gonna be it's gonna be
interesting to find out, likeanything else, you know, selling
and creating your owntechnology, it makes, you know,
the grass is always greener.
You think like, oh, I cancontrol this and I don't have to
(11:44):
deal with these guys, I can doit myself.
Well, there's challenges to thattoo, right?
Um, and when things screw up,the big target is on your back,
not anybody else's, right?
So you have to make sure that umyou're doing the right thing for
your members and and everybodyelse.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, uh, and you know it asgood as I do, you know,
technology and a lot of peoplehave great ideas.
And then as soon as that ideacomes to fruition and you have a
solution, there's a hundredother ideas on how to make it
better and how to continue tomaintain.
And you know, it's just anever-ending saga of uh, you
know, keeping up with the newtechnology, and then you have to
support it and you have to keepit running.
(12:22):
And I think a lot of times um,you know, that's challenging,
and it's why we love to partnerwith you know MLSs and
associations to to drivemembership.
Um with that said though, whatwould a modernized MLS look
like?
So if you were able to starttoday with the landscape that
we're in, you know, what whathow would you think about that?
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
Got a modernized MLS, right?
I mean, that's that'sinteresting.
I mean, you know, here's thething.
It's like when you saymodernize, right?
A lot of people just think of anMLS as a listing platform,
right?
It's a database of listings andphotos and virtual tours, just a
(13:07):
database or a listings platform.
What people forget is like anMLS is a broker cooperative,
right?
So the challenging, the modernMLS is now, the challenges that
MLSs are facing now are reallymore policy and political,
right?
So there's a big movement calledclear cooperation, which, you
know, because it's a brokercooperative, there's a rule that
(13:28):
says if you want to market yourpublic, your listing publicly,
uh, it has to, you have to puton the MLS within one day.
And that's causing a lot ofriots from some uh bigger
brokerages, national-wisebrokerages, of like, they want
to do, you know, they want theircake and eat it too, right?
They want to be able toparticipate in all the great
things an MLS does, but but theyalso want to, you know, have
(13:49):
their own exclusive stuff too.
And that that um that goesagainst the spirit of what an
MLS is, a broker cooperative is.
So if you're saying what amodern MLS is, would be less
focusing on the technology side.
But how do we solve these kindof real problems of brokers'
business models out there,right?
(14:11):
And and the problem I I see toois that we've had such a
prolonged, uh, pro proactivelike uh cycle of being a
seller's market.
And that's why we have all thesekind of talks about pocket
listings.
When it goes to a buyer'smarket, well, everybody wants
to, whatever they can do to getit sold, they're gonna get it
sold.
But now that they can kind of,you know, maybe hide it for a
(14:33):
little longer or have thesepocket listings, you're just
seeing these new business modelsof saying, they're not new,
right?
But they're, you know, they'vebeen around a while, but they've
been out there longer becausethis of this kind of elongated
cycle for many reasons.
You could say COVID, you couldsay supply, you could say, you
know, a lot of different things,right?
Or the even back to the GFC.
(14:54):
Um, but the market's gonna turnand it always turns.
So um, I'm just hoping if you'rea modern MLS, you've got to like
the things you want to do arecome up with strategies to, you
know, keep everybody cooperatingand working nice together,
right?
Let's not throw out the babywith the bathwater, right?
No, let's not make change allour rules for the market today,
(15:14):
and then we discover later onwhen the market shifts that
there's nothing here that'sgonna help us in in the other
times, too, right?
So that's what I think aboutlike modern MLS problems are
more those types of issues thanreally technology.
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
Yeah.
No, it's uh makes sense, and Ithink that you know, modern MLS
will will change, but let's talkabout the future then.
What um, you know, do you thinkthere's gonna be consolidation
in the MLS landscape?
Like, is that a something youwould project in the future?
SPEAKER_00 (15:45):
Yeah, I mean, you know, you I always say this
there's 522 MLS.
Um, there's 1.5 million realtorsin the uh United States.
It might be 1.49 now.
I don't know, it's a little bitless.
But uh of the 522 MLSs, the top23 represent a million of those
1.5 million realtors, right?
So it's a very long tail, asthey say, right?
(16:09):
Um, I think if I remembercorrectly, of those 500, 250 of
those MLSs have less than 500members apiece.
unknown (16:16):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
Think about that, right?
You have some MLSs that maybeonly have 200 or 100 people,
right?
So um consolidation is toughbecause a lot of times they're
really kind of resort towns orsmall areas and and they don't
really see a need for joining.
So, yes, I think there'll beconsolidation, but um, I still
think there's gonna be uh uhsome number of them that are
(16:39):
just gonna be independent.
Um, you know, there's gonna bealways Aspen and Vale, I think.
I, you know, they in my mindthey're the same.
I mean, I've I think I've beento one of them, and anybody from
Aspen and Vale could tell me I'ma I'm uh I'm crazy because
they're so different.
But you know, why do they have,why would you have, you know, so
I I don't know.
I mean, yes, there'll be someconsolidation.
When I started, I think there'sover 750 MLSs, it's down to 522.
(17:03):
But, you know, again, I starteda long time ago, and that that
that that shift is going to takea long time.
SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
Yeah.
Well, and then continuing onthat thread, if if they're not
consolidating, you know, um,talk to us a little bit about
the data sharing models and andpolicies.
Because I know that was uh, youknow, part of that big
discussion of, you know, doesthat continue?
Do you do you pull back on that?
You know, how does that where doyou see that falling?
SPEAKER_00 (17:27):
Yeah, I mean, I'm there's an argument to be made
whether data shares hurt or helpdata consolidation or MLS
consolidation, because it'sreally coming from the brokers.
If you're if you're a brokerdoing business in Colorado and
you have to join 17 MLSs to kindof do business, it's ridiculous,
right?
So a lot of times these datashares can help with brokers
(17:48):
that, okay, well, at least I cango to one place and they've
shared data and I can go intoone platform, right?
Um, but that also kind of dropsthe impetus for MLS to go out
each after each other becauseyou know the data's there.
It's kind of a uh a band-aid,really, but still it's workable
and you know, they they got thatout of the way, right?
(18:08):
So um, you know, some peoplehave been calling for MLS to
compete more, right?
To really, you know, that wouldbe really, but I think in the
end, the brokers are gonna, youknow, if if you if a broker just
to, you know, an MLS if theywanted to be a bit more uh
aggressive, they could drop adata share, right?
But their brokers would be themost, their their own members
(18:30):
would be the pissed off themost.
Like I don't care about you guysmerging, I just wanted to be
able to do business.
I want to be able to go oneplace and search for listings
that I can sell or you know,help help my clients buy, right?
I mean, that's I think it'sreally tough to kind of make
that work altogether.
It's not as easy as peoplethink.
SPEAKER_01 (18:47):
Yeah, and what I mean, I think if if you're in
one of those markets where youare having to log in and really
go into different places to findwhat you're looking for, and and
you don't have you know easyways to to access that, um, you
know, you're just adding a tonof layers and and uh frustration
to that whole process.
And so yeah, totally understand,and then money, you know, a lot
(19:09):
of those you're having to payfor those individuals.
Um so um yeah, that'll beinteresting come down the pipe.
Uh got a couple more, uh, timefor a couple more.
One, I'd love to understand umyour take on the the brokerage,
uh broker of choiceimplications.
So, you know, whether or not youare, you know, participating in
the association and and how thatrelates to your membership in
(19:32):
the MLS.
And and the point of a lot ofthe MLS is are starting to look
at ways that they can, you know,allow for that access um without
actually being a member of theassociation.
SPEAKER_00 (19:42):
Yeah.
I mean, that's happened in a lotof places, what they call
Thompson states, where you don'thave to be a member of the
association or in order to jointhe MLS, you could have an MLS
only account.
And I think because of thelawsuits, there might, you know,
might some people might deemthat necessary to separate
themselves from the MLSassociation.
There.
But that's a lot of that's canbe hard for associations because
(20:05):
the association was then first.
They they started the MLS tohelp them with their business
model.
And they're kind of symbiotic,right?
To tear them apart, they weren'treally set up to do it that way.
They weren't really set up to beseparate.
So it's going to be, it's good,it can work in some areas.
In other areas, it's going to bevery difficult.
So no matter what happens.
(20:27):
So I think it's just going to bewe're going to have to see what
happens in different markets.
But it's a market-by-marketthing.
SPEAKER_01 (20:33):
Gotcha.
Last question.
Data ownership and control.
Obviously, there's a lot of talkabout that.
Whose data is this that iscoming in?
The broker, the MLS, theconsumer, the franchise.
You know, what is your generaltake on that discussion?
SPEAKER_00 (20:52):
My general take is the broker's data, right?
I mean, but there's differentthings between the the data
itself and the compilation ofthat data, right?
So sometimes the MLS can claimto have a um claim over the
compilation of all that data,right?
Um so it goes that way.
But I mean, most of the things,most MLSs and associations are
set up where um data licensesthat you have to sign data
(21:15):
licenses to do anything, right?
So and those data licenses coverwhat you can do and what you
can't do.
So um there's already place, youknow, things in in in in process
and the way that you do thingsthat that really answer any
questions that people might befearful of.
SPEAKER_01 (21:32):
No, it makes a lot of sense.
I know from the broker side, um,you know, obviously that's
that's their take as well, butthere's a lot of things that can
be done and a lot of value canbe drived from from all of that.
So uh last one, what's some keytakeaways um that that you would
have from the MLS space uh forthis audience?
SPEAKER_00 (21:51):
Yeah, I mean, for MLS's, I think for anybody, I
mean, you know, at Cloud CMA atWNR Studios, I mean, our our
thing was always, you know, umthe best marketing is having a
great product, right?
I mean, when you have a greatproduct, uh marketing takes care
of itself.
I mean, be I I do a presentationthat's called Be So Good They
Can't Ignore You, right?
(22:12):
So focus on the things you cancontrol.
Only compete with yourself, andI think you'll be all right.
All the other stuff is justnonsense, it's just noise,
right?
I mean, just try to be a betterorganization.
Use what you have to be better.
I mean, use your people, useyour tools, use everything you
can to be better.
Um, and if you keep focusing onmaking a great company, a great
product, a great place forpeople to work, you're gonna do
(22:34):
great.
SPEAKER_01 (22:36):
Well, Greg, thank you for your time today.
We really appreciate youappreciate you having you on uh
Top Tech Pulse.
Thank you.
Thanks for inviting me.
That's our pulse for today.
Keep innovating, keepimplementing, and keep moving
real estate forward.
From the entrepreneur's desk to the
industry front lines and intoreal-world operations.
I'm Aaron Cardell, joined byKyle Hunter and Jake Hamilton.
And we're here to take the pulseof real estate technology in
just 20 minutes.
Hello everyone, and welcome toPrompt Tech Pulse.
Today we have the fabulous GregRobertson.
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
Thank you for using my my Twitter moniker there, uh
Kyle.
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
Oh well, Greg, uh, we're happy to have you today.
Um let's start out.
Maybe uh tell us a little bitabout yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
Yeah, um, I've been in the uh real estate technology
industry for about 30 years.
I started my first real estatesoftware company back in 1992,
if you can believe it.
We uh we shipped software onfive and a quarter floppies and
boxes, and now we went fromboxes to the cloud, whatever
that means.
And uh, but I've had about youknow three companies in that
(00:57):
time.
My last company was WR Studios,our flagship product was Cloud
CMA, and um we actually that'swhere we met, I sold my company,
WNR Studios, my business partnerDan Woolley and I sold it to
Lone Wolf back in uh December of2020, which seems like a
lifetime ago, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
It sure does.
Uh but it hey, it was one of ourone of our greatest uh mergers,
I think.
SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
So yeah, thank you.
Yeah, I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
So um I we have quite a few questions today to
go through and uh I want to gothrough a kind of rapid session,
but you know, coming off uh lastweek, I was uh had the ability
to to attend the inaugural MSMLS reset, which I thought was a
great event and just a lot ofgood topics, conversation, a lot
of things that came out of it.
(01:46):
And so you know, really justkind of piggyback on that, I'd
love to um talk a little bitabout you know the evolution and
the future of of MLS, but let'sstart out by you know, from your
perspective, um, you know, whatis the current state of the MLS?
Maybe over the past decade, howhas that uh evolved and as far
(02:06):
as the landscape?
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
Yeah, it's gone through quite a bit of changes.
I mean, um, I you might haveI've heard this, I've said this
on stage, but I think MLS hasgotten kind of we're in the MLS
3.0 stage where MLS 1.0 wasbasically you had an
organization, they had books,right?
Where you know had all thelistings in a book.
And um, you know, agents werebasically gatekeepers of the
(02:28):
data.
You couldn't see, know what wason the market really.
And so unless you saw a for salesign in a in a a lawn or you
knew an agent, right?
Uh that to me is what I wouldqualify as MLS 1.0.
MLS 2.0 is the advent of theinternet, right?
So now um listings areeverywhere, like realtor.com was
launched in 2000 or 1995-ish,96, and then Zillow about 10
(02:52):
years later, and now listingsare everywhere.
Agents are no longer thegatekeepers, and uh they've got
to find up new ways of ofworking that way, right?
And you know, we basically atthat point also um were able to
put the internet in the palm ofour hands here with our with our
mobile phones.
And I think right now um we'rean MLS 3-0, right?
This this third version.
(03:12):
And that that wasn't, you know,the last the last version was
brought to us by technology, theinternet.
This one unfortunately came tous because of the uh of a uh
lawsuit in Missouri, right?
And a subsequent settlement fromNAR afterwards.
So now what used to be uh uh thetwo pillars of MLS, which were
cooperation and compensation,compensation now, mandatory
(03:35):
compensation is gone.
And now agents and brokers haveto find themselves how to kind
of how to do business in thisnew world where compensation
isn't just a foregoneconclusion.
So um that's how I kind of lookat things right now.
There's some other things here,but that to me is in a nutshell
there, high level.
SPEAKER_01 (03:52):
Yeah, no, and I know that that really uh disrupted um
all of the industries, you know,beyond the MLSs and you know,
obviously just the need torequire, you know, have the
buyer broker agreement up frontto even show a property and just
all the changes that you knowagents or brokerages are having
to navigate today.
Um, but with that said, maybedrill down a little further and
(04:13):
what kind of the key challengesthat MLSs are are facing today,
now that they, you know, one bigcomponent of that value
proposition is is gone away.
Uh, you know, what are some ofthose other uh challenges that
they're they're looking to tryto uh overcome today?
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
Yeah, I mean, as I said, there are two pillars I
think of an MLS were cooperationand compensation.
Now that you know compensationis taken away, um, MLSs have to
really focus on that cooperationaspect.
What how can they get thesebrokers together to cooperate
together if there's no, youknow, there used to be a carrot
and a stick, and now the carrothas gone away as far as being
(04:52):
compensation.
So what tools can they do?
What things can they enactwithin their MLS organizations
to really foster cooperation?
Um, cooperation to me is anotherword for community, for
communication, right?
So I think those are thechallenges.
And then you have the otherthing that's a challenging that
is really, you know, coming tobear here is is the market
overall, right?
(05:12):
I mean, we have anextraordinarily tough market.
I mean, I think it was thelowest number of transactions.
Uh interest rates rose higherand quicker than historically in
70 years.
Affordabilities, you know, um,you know, most people can't even
buy a home anymore.
Um, so there's you know,interest rates, as I said, you
(05:33):
know, went up.
Um, it's just challenging forall those things.
And that kind of market umfosters uh a lot of problems for
brokers and agents.
If there's less transactions, umthat that's not a good thing for
any of us, right?
Especially those in the uh inthe MLS world or in the vendor
world that sells tools to agentsfor sure.
SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
You know, I guess uh I saw whereyou know the housing units were
that online with 1995, like andso uh there was a lot more, a
lot higher population back then.
So um, you know, you're havingto find more folks to do more
things with.
And I know that, you know, umobviously that comes with a lot
(06:15):
of change.
I was on with uh an MLS providerearlier today, and you know,
there was 150 new members thatwere right there in the
training.
And so how are they able tocontinue to keep that demand up
and you know, to make itimportant for membership to you
know retain at the levels thatthey're at?
SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I I I you
know I go to a lot of events,right?
So I was at the Inman New Yorkuh Connect, and one of the
speakers there was uh MikeKilpredi, right?
And he talked about thedichotomy of there's less
transactions, but there's moreof a pool of commissions out
there because the houses thatare in there right now are worth
(06:57):
appreciably more, right?
So maybe back in 1995, or let'slet's use a better example,
2019, maybe there was you know35 billion in in in
commissionable dollars that youcould get, right?
Even though you can talk aboutthe transactions getting lower,
the number of things gettinglower.
(07:19):
The fact is, since 2019, theappreciation of the homes has
gotten higher, which means theamount available for commissions
is actually higher than it everhas been, right?
So there's maybe less, butthere's more to be making from
less, if that makes any sense.
So I don't know how that canfactor anybody's strategies, but
um, I always hate the doom andgloom of things, and I try to
(07:42):
find some bright spots.
And I I heard that from Mike,and I'm like, well, we should
share that with people, thatit's not such a uh doom and
gloom, right?
SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
Yeah, no, and I agree.
I mean, there's there'ssomething in it that makes folks
continue to to join theindustry, and and you know, um
we have to keep plugging along.
So, with that said, when youhave um these changes in the
market, how are MLSs adapting tokind of the new new demands of
(08:10):
technology, uh the new thingsthat are available to them and
um you know, really how thatplays within the prop tech
ecosystem?
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I'll I'll be honest with
you.
For MLSs right now, they've beenso mired in, you know, uh
depositions and reading throughlegal documents because of the
lawsuits.
Um, you can look back at 2024,hardly any of them had any time
to really introduce any new techor try to, you know, or get
(08:40):
anybody's attention.
And that goes for the same thingfor vendors like Lone Wolf or
some other companies of gettingtheir attention because they've
been so focused with with thosewith those lawsuits.
Now that the settlement is isenacted, it's a brand new year.
Um I hope we'll see a thawing itout there.
Um, you know, and and you know,there are some some um some
(09:02):
people that are saying thatthere's gonna be more
transactions this year, maybenot a lot more, but at least
more.
Um, maybe we'll see some thawingout of some more innovation and
new companies coming up ononline, or uh there has been a
lot of new innovation.
I know you guys have done a lotof new innovation, but it's hard
to get anybody to pay attentionbecause they've been so mired in
in all these legal battles,right?
(09:23):
Even the brokerages, a lot ofbrokerages had the same kind of
lawsuits.
So they for them to focus onlike somebody coming out with
some new technology, it's beentough.
And I hope that 2005, 2025, Ishould say, um, you know, thaws
things out so that we can beginto kind of look towards the
future again in in regards totechnology and other things.
SPEAKER_01 (09:43):
Yeah, no, and I, you know, to your point, I've uh
spoke with a few industryleaders, mostly in the franchise
world, um, this year, thatreally they're in, they're
turning the page.
Let's move forward.
You know, there was election,there was um, you know,
Sisabranet, there was all thedifferent things that were just
creating chaos last year, andobviously with the market.
(10:04):
Um, now it's really focused on,okay, how do we go forward?
How do we move forward and andcontinue to grow our brands,
grow our um, you know, marketshare?
Um, with that said, what areMLSs?
You know, there's a lot ofchanges, you know, whether it's
uh, you know, Phoenix tryingsomething new or you know,
Alabama or different differentMLSs, what what are some of the
(10:25):
innovative ideas that you'reseeing from MLSs um to really
pivot and and change the way uhthat they are working to you
know increase um you know valueto their members?
SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
Yeah, I I think there's kind of two things out
there, right?
Number one would be MLS are arestarting to do what I would call
like MLS-led technologyinitiatives or MLS-owned things
where they have hired their owndevelopers and they're
developing their own software.
They're they're becoming theirown software companies before
they would license softwaretechnology solutions from other
(11:00):
vendors.
Some of them are becomingvendors themselves, where they
not only create software fortheir own use, but they'll go to
out there and try to sell it toother MLSs.
Kind of this like um built forMLSs for ML, you know by MLSs
for MLSs kind of thing.
So you see a bit about that.
Um you see in MLSs makinginvestments in some other
vendors.
And this is this hasn't happenedfor a while now, but you've seen
(11:23):
that before because they've seensome prop tech vendors go on to
have success by being acquiredand they want to participate in
that.
Um, you know, and you know, it'sit's just gonna be it's gonna be
interesting to find out, likeanything else, you know, selling
and creating your owntechnology, it makes, you know,
the grass is always greener.
You think like, oh, I cancontrol this and I don't have to
(11:44):
deal with these guys, I can doit myself.
Well, there's challenges to thattoo, right?
Um, and when things screw up,the big target is on your back,
not anybody else's, right?
So you have to make sure that umyou're doing the right thing for
your members and and everybodyelse.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, uh, and you know it asgood as I do, you know,
technology and a lot of peoplehave great ideas.
And then as soon as that ideacomes to fruition and you have a
solution, there's a hundredother ideas on how to make it
better and how to continue tomaintain.
And you know, it's just anever-ending saga of uh, you
know, keeping up with the newtechnology, and then you have to
support it and you have to keepit running.
(12:22):
And I think a lot of times um,you know, that's challenging,
and it's why we love to partnerwith you know MLSs and
associations to to drivemembership.
Um with that said though, whatwould a modernized MLS look
like?
So if you were able to starttoday with the landscape that
we're in, you know, what whathow would you think about that?
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
Got a modernized MLS, right?
I mean, that's that'sinteresting.
I mean, you know, here's thething.
It's like when you saymodernize, right?
A lot of people just think of anMLS as a listing platform,
right?
It's a database of listings andphotos and virtual tours, just a
(13:07):
database or a listings platform.
What people forget is like anMLS is a broker cooperative,
right?
So the challenging, the modernMLS is now, the challenges that
MLSs are facing now are reallymore policy and political,
right?
So there's a big movement calledclear cooperation, which, you
know, because it's a brokercooperative, there's a rule that
(13:28):
says if you want to market yourpublic, your listing publicly,
uh, it has to, you have to puton the MLS within one day.
And that's causing a lot ofriots from some uh bigger
brokerages, national-wisebrokerages, of like, they want
to do, you know, they want theircake and eat it too, right?
They want to be able toparticipate in all the great
things an MLS does, but but theyalso want to, you know, have
(13:49):
their own exclusive stuff too.
And that that um that goesagainst the spirit of what an
MLS is, a broker cooperative is.
So if you're saying what amodern MLS is, would be less
focusing on the technology side.
But how do we solve these kindof real problems of brokers'
business models out there,right?
(14:11):
And and the problem I I see toois that we've had such a
prolonged, uh, pro proactivelike uh cycle of being a
seller's market.
And that's why we have all thesekind of talks about pocket
listings.
When it goes to a buyer'smarket, well, everybody wants
to, whatever they can do to getit sold, they're gonna get it
sold.
But now that they can kind of,you know, maybe hide it for a
(14:33):
little longer or have thesepocket listings, you're just
seeing these new business modelsof saying, they're not new,
right?
But they're, you know, they'vebeen around a while, but they've
been out there longer becausethis of this kind of elongated
cycle for many reasons.
You could say COVID, you couldsay supply, you could say, you
know, a lot of different things,right?
Or the even back to the GFC.
(14:54):
Um, but the market's gonna turnand it always turns.
So um, I'm just hoping if you'rea modern MLS, you've got to like
the things you want to do arecome up with strategies to, you
know, keep everybody cooperatingand working nice together,
right?
Let's not throw out the babywith the bathwater, right?
No, let's not make change allour rules for the market today,
(15:14):
and then we discover later onwhen the market shifts that
there's nothing here that'sgonna help us in in the other
times, too, right?
So that's what I think aboutlike modern MLS problems are
more those types of issues thanreally technology.
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
Yeah.
No, it's uh makes sense, and Ithink that you know, modern MLS
will will change, but let's talkabout the future then.
What um, you know, do you thinkthere's gonna be consolidation
in the MLS landscape?
Like, is that a something youwould project in the future?
SPEAKER_00 (15:45):
Yeah, I mean, you know, you I always say this
there's 522 MLS.
Um, there's 1.5 million realtorsin the uh United States.
It might be 1.49 now.
I don't know, it's a little bitless.
But uh of the 522 MLSs, the top23 represent a million of those
1.5 million realtors, right?
So it's a very long tail, asthey say, right?
(16:09):
Um, I think if I remembercorrectly, of those 500, 250 of
those MLSs have less than 500members apiece.
unknown (16:16):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
Think about that, right?
You have some MLSs that maybeonly have 200 or 100 people,
right?
So um consolidation is toughbecause a lot of times they're
really kind of resort towns orsmall areas and and they don't
really see a need for joining.
So, yes, I think there'll beconsolidation, but um, I still
think there's gonna be uh uhsome number of them that are
(16:39):
just gonna be independent.
Um, you know, there's gonna bealways Aspen and Vale, I think.
I, you know, they in my mindthey're the same.
I mean, I've I think I've beento one of them, and anybody from
Aspen and Vale could tell me I'ma I'm uh I'm crazy because
they're so different.
But you know, why do they have,why would you have, you know, so
I I don't know.
I mean, yes, there'll be someconsolidation.
When I started, I think there'sover 750 MLSs, it's down to 522.
(17:03):
But, you know, again, I starteda long time ago, and that that
that that shift is going to takea long time.
SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
Yeah.
Well, and then continuing onthat thread, if if they're not
consolidating, you know, um,talk to us a little bit about
the data sharing models and andpolicies.
Because I know that was uh, youknow, part of that big
discussion of, you know, doesthat continue?
Do you do you pull back on that?
You know, how does that where doyou see that falling?
SPEAKER_00 (17:27):
Yeah, I mean, I'm there's an argument to be made
whether data shares hurt or helpdata consolidation or MLS
consolidation, because it'sreally coming from the brokers.
If you're if you're a brokerdoing business in Colorado and
you have to join 17 MLSs to kindof do business, it's ridiculous,
right?
So a lot of times these datashares can help with brokers
(17:48):
that, okay, well, at least I cango to one place and they've
shared data and I can go intoone platform, right?
Um, but that also kind of dropsthe impetus for MLS to go out
each after each other becauseyou know the data's there.
It's kind of a uh a band-aid,really, but still it's workable
and you know, they they got thatout of the way, right?
(18:08):
So um, you know, some peoplehave been calling for MLS to
compete more, right?
To really, you know, that wouldbe really, but I think in the
end, the brokers are gonna, youknow, if if you if a broker just
to, you know, an MLS if theywanted to be a bit more uh
aggressive, they could drop adata share, right?
But their brokers would be themost, their their own members
(18:30):
would be the pissed off themost.
Like I don't care about you guysmerging, I just wanted to be
able to do business.
I want to be able to go oneplace and search for listings
that I can sell or you know,help help my clients buy, right?
I mean, that's I think it'sreally tough to kind of make
that work altogether.
It's not as easy as peoplethink.
SPEAKER_01 (18:47):
Yeah, and what I mean, I think if if you're in
one of those markets where youare having to log in and really
go into different places to findwhat you're looking for, and and
you don't have you know easyways to to access that, um, you
know, you're just adding a tonof layers and and uh frustration
to that whole process.
And so yeah, totally understand,and then money, you know, a lot
(19:09):
of those you're having to payfor those individuals.
Um so um yeah, that'll beinteresting come down the pipe.
Uh got a couple more, uh, timefor a couple more.
One, I'd love to understand umyour take on the the brokerage,
uh broker of choiceimplications.
So, you know, whether or not youare, you know, participating in
the association and and how thatrelates to your membership in
(19:32):
the MLS.
And and the point of a lot ofthe MLS is are starting to look
at ways that they can, you know,allow for that access um without
actually being a member of theassociation.
SPEAKER_00 (19:42):
Yeah.
I mean, that's happened in a lotof places, what they call
Thompson states, where you don'thave to be a member of the
association or in order to jointhe MLS, you could have an MLS
only account.
And I think because of thelawsuits, there might, you know,
might some people might deemthat necessary to separate
themselves from the MLSassociation.
There.
But that's a lot of that's canbe hard for associations because
(20:05):
the association was then first.
They they started the MLS tohelp them with their business
model.
And they're kind of symbiotic,right?
To tear them apart, they weren'treally set up to do it that way.
They weren't really set up to beseparate.
So it's going to be, it's good,it can work in some areas.
In other areas, it's going to bevery difficult.
So no matter what happens.
(20:27):
So I think it's just going to bewe're going to have to see what
happens in different markets.
But it's a market-by-marketthing.
SPEAKER_01 (20:33):
Gotcha.
Last question.
Data ownership and control.
Obviously, there's a lot of talkabout that.
Whose data is this that iscoming in?
The broker, the MLS, theconsumer, the franchise.
You know, what is your generaltake on that discussion?
SPEAKER_00 (20:52):
My general take is the broker's data, right?
I mean, but there's differentthings between the the data
itself and the compilation ofthat data, right?
So sometimes the MLS can claimto have a um claim over the
compilation of all that data,right?
Um so it goes that way.
But I mean, most of the things,most MLSs and associations are
set up where um data licensesthat you have to sign data
(21:15):
licenses to do anything, right?
So and those data licenses coverwhat you can do and what you
can't do.
So um there's already place, youknow, things in in in in process
and the way that you do thingsthat that really answer any
questions that people might befearful of.
SPEAKER_01 (21:32):
No, it makes a lot of sense.
I know from the broker side, um,you know, obviously that's
that's their take as well, butthere's a lot of things that can
be done and a lot of value canbe drived from from all of that.
So uh last one, what's some keytakeaways um that that you would
have from the MLS space uh forthis audience?
SPEAKER_00 (21:51):
Yeah, I mean, for MLS's, I think for anybody, I
mean, you know, at Cloud CMA atWNR Studios, I mean, our our
thing was always, you know, umthe best marketing is having a
great product, right?
I mean, when you have a greatproduct, uh marketing takes care
of itself.
I mean, be I I do a presentationthat's called Be So Good They
Can't Ignore You, right?
(22:12):
So focus on the things you cancontrol.
Only compete with yourself, andI think you'll be all right.
All the other stuff is justnonsense, it's just noise,
right?
I mean, just try to be a betterorganization.
Use what you have to be better.
I mean, use your people, useyour tools, use everything you
can to be better.
Um, and if you keep focusing onmaking a great company, a great
product, a great place forpeople to work, you're gonna do
(22:34):
great.
SPEAKER_01 (22:36):
Well, Greg, thank you for your time today.
We really appreciate youappreciate you having you on uh
Top Tech Pulse.
Thank you.
Thanks for inviting me.
That's our pulse for today.
Keep innovating, keepimplementing, and keep moving
real estate forward.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.