Your buyer doesn’t need a lecture on features. They need a partner who can make sense of complexity and map it to outcomes that matter. That’s the throughline of our conversation with Denise, a veteran deal maker who’s led enterprise sales, built her own consultancy, and now coaches leaders to sell with clarity, credibility, and care.
We start by interrogating the timeless playbook—persistence, product knowledge, relationships—and how each one transformed after COVID. Denise explains why education no longer differentiates when every stakeholder has done the homework, and how the edge now comes from active listening and root‑cause discovery. Instead of pitching “what it does,” we dig into “why this solves the real problem,” and we show how to frame risks, trade‑offs, and value without fluff. Along the way, we unpack practical ways to deepen relationships on Zoom, use social media with purpose, and replace swag with substance.
Technology gets a frank audit. AI can draft outreach, summarize calls, and surface account patterns, but the win is using it to remove busywork and redirect energy to human skills—judgment, empathy, negotiation. Denise lays out guardrails for keeping your voice while scaling your workflow, and she shares simple coaching metrics like talk ratio and question depth that elevate every meeting. The human story anchors it all. Denise reflects on a late‑started healing journey that sharpened her empathy and intent, and we examine how inner work turns into outer performance. When you know your why, you stop seeking approval and start creating value.
We close with three concrete moves for modern sellers: adopt technology with intent, make every interaction about the buyer, and stay authentic by anchoring on purpose. If you want to sell beyond features, build trust faster, and make your buyer the hero, this conversation gives you a clear path forward. Enjoy the episode, then subscribe, share with a teammate, and leave a review to tell us the discovery question you’ll try next.
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Episode Transcript
Denise.
Hi.
It's a pleasure to have you onProven Not Perfect Community.
And I really don't want to racethe drip.
I want to get right into it.
So, Denise, tell me as you havegrown in the career functionally
in sales, first and foremost,you're the first person with a
functional skill set in selling,right?
(02:09):
Which I believe is probably oneof the hardest professions that
there is.
Um, and I'll tell you why Ithink that.
You're one of the first peoplethat's really going to help
unpack with me what makes a goodsalesperson a good salesperson.
That's what I want to talkabout.
What makes a good salesperson agood salesperson?
(02:31):
And you're qualified to talkabout this because you've been
taking names and kicking butt insales for a whole lot of years
in industry.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour background in sales.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Yes, I've spent over 30 years in sales, closing large
multimillion dollar deals,working with Fortune 500 and 100
companies.
I have done everything frombeing a card carrying sales rep
to now owning my own businessand all the journey through
that.
My business now is reallyfocused on fractional sales,
coaching, consulting.
(03:03):
So I do leadership, consulting,coaching, and as well have
opportunities to speak even inmoments like this on a podcast.
So it's really about sharing thestory and how we become even go
from good to great salespeople.
SPEAKER_01 (03:16):
That's right on.
So we got to unpack something.
So when I think about sales,peer-peer sales, going all the
way back.
I can I can remember when I hadmy first sales-ish role, right?
I'm a finance person, went intostrategy and PL leadership, but
I have had the privilege to leadsales organizations as well.
Let me ask you this (03:34):
Dale Carnegie was like one of those
names way back, right?
Stephen Covey, you know, they'rethey're just those names that we
think of that talk about therudimentary basics of selling,
right?
Speed of trust, right?
We can keep going.
Were any of those influential onyou?
And do you still think they'rerelevant today?
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
So I would say the short answer is yes.
They were impactful for me.
And yes, they are still relevantin some function of sorts.
And I say that because thebasics, the ground work that we
or the ground characteristics,the abilities, those are still
in existence.
And each one of those differentthought leaders have all shared
(04:19):
them in their own ways, right?
So I, as a product of who I am,is I've taken the challenger
methodology, the selling deveto.
I mean, there are a ton ofothers, right?
I've incorporated them into thebits and pieces that work for
me.
And I've included, I mean,there's so many.
There's a million of them.
I mean, you could look at them.
(04:42):
I've got them up there, right?
So it was really just abouttaking a little bit of
everything and making it yourown.
But I think the difference todayis that we're in this world
where we have new technologies,we have AI, we have automation
solutions.
And by the way, we went frombeing crazy busy and then the
pandemic hit, and now we're allwe were all sequestered to our
(05:03):
desks and isolated in our homes.
That also changed us asindividuals, how we engage, what
we look for in that engagementwith someone.
So I think that while they arerelevant, meaning there are bits
and pieces that we can stilltake and leverage within the
core basics of sales, we they'renot completely relevant overall
(05:23):
because we've got so many newnuances in our world today that
we have to learn to adapt to andthen also incorporate in how we
sell.
So that is awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
And that's exactly where I hoped you'd go.
To me, there's this great dividein just about everything that we
think about in business, right?
There's sort of pre-COVID,COVID, post-COVID, and now we're
getting into some other uhwonderful areas of change and
dynamics.
But my question is okay, whatare the three things that made a
(05:55):
great salesperson greatpre-COVID?
And then which of those threethings have become something
different post-COVID?
What do you think?
What are the three?
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
Okay, I think the three things that made someone
great as a made a greatsalesperson before COVID was
persistence.
Persistence, yep.
I think just being knowledgeableof what you were selling.
Knowledgeable.
And I think as well, probablyjust having a great personality,
being able to buildrelationships, right?
(06:25):
Relationships, all right.
So which of those things are shhave shifted since COVID?
I think we have to beknowledgeable, right?
So I'm gonna go through a coupleof those just separately.
I think we have to beknowledgeable still today, but I
will tell you that we don't haveto educate any longer.
Our buyers are smart today,right?
Before they were going 90 tonothing, leaving their desk,
going from meeting to meeting tomeeting, barely checking email,
(06:47):
not even ever having time toactually look at the internet.
Today we sit in front of ourdesks.
We very to physically go to adifferent meeting.
We can sit in a meeting on Zoomand still play on our laptop.
We are more educated than we'veever been with the amount of
information that we haveavailable to us.
So we don't need sales big one.
SPEAKER_01 (07:07):
That Denise is a big one, right?
We don't need salespeople toeducate us anymore.
So if you are trapped, lockedinto um a features and benefits
sales philosophy, right?
Then I really believe, I thinkyou are starting to miss the
boat as we neared 2020, justsaying, because it was supposed
to be a solution.
(07:28):
But for sure, post-2020, if youare still talking about features
and benefits and not talkingabout do it for me, fit it for
me, make it make sense for me, Ithink you've miss the boat.
Do you agree with that?
SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
100%.
And the only way we can do that,get to that point where we're
actually getting beyond featureand function and selling to a
problem, is we actually have tohave different conversations,
which is where relationshipbefore is very different than it
was today.
But let's talk about thatrelationship pre and
relationship now.
Before it really was just abouthow do you say you go in bubbly
(08:06):
and how do you build trust andcredibility really fast because
you've and you do that becauseyou've shared all this
information with them, right?
So now you've built trust andcredibility.
Now they don't need us toeducate them.
So now it's more about how do wereally build relationship?
It's not about being a greatperson and a good, fun
individual and being bubbly andand messaging.
It's really now how do you addcredibility when you can't
(08:28):
educate them anymore?
So your relationship levels haveto be deeper.
They have to be a bit moreunderstanding amongst the two,
the buyer and the seller.
And the only way to do that isto start engaging in really good
conversation.
You have to be curious and youhave to actively listen so that
you can really get to thatprobable root cause.
(08:49):
Before we would sell to systemicproblems, and that was okay.
Today we have to sell toprobable root cause problems.
SPEAKER_01 (08:55):
I mean, seriously, right?
So that is that's you reallygetting to the core of why for
your potential customer orcustomer, getting to the core of
why, and not always juststopping at the why based on the
business as you see it, but evengoing further back.
(09:18):
Now, we live in a world of Zoom,right?
We live in a world where somecustomers have taken their
number of calls, sales calls,and crushed them, right?
Now, how does a really goodsales professional take
advantage of new modes ofcontact to go deep, deeper in
(09:42):
those relationships?
Oh, by the way, a lot ofcompanies are saying ix nay the
golf, right?
Not not so much anymore, right?
And so how do how give give somemaybe practical ideas for how
some of the sales folks who'vebeen around for a long time, who
are learning how to leveragesocial media, who are learning
(10:03):
how to leverage additional toolslike AI, who are learning how to
feel confident in this newversion of a salesperson going
deep and adding value in anengaging relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
I think really the only way we can do that, all of
those different components thatyou mentioned effectively is
when we make it about them andnot at all about us.
I think when we do that, when wemake it about them, we our
social media, how we sell onsocial media will change, how we
engage with them on Zoom willchange.
(10:38):
It is about really making itabout them understanding what
they want.
When you ask questions, it theywill realize that you want to
partner with them, that you arecurious and want to hear some of
the challenges that they'rebeing faced with.
And only then will they give youthe opportunity to share with
them how you might couldactually help solve some of
those problems, right?
It is about making it about themand not at all about you.
(11:02):
All right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:03):
So now I want to go back and understand Denise, who
has been incredibly successfulas a professional, as a little
girl.
And I'd love to understand didyou always see yourself moving
into a role of salesprofessional?
Did you always see yourself withcertain skills that would
(11:25):
position you in business in theway that it has?
Or did you have to push pastsome things?
I'd I'd love to quite franklyshare a little bit with the
community, you know, what madeyou who you are today?
You know, maybe, maybe there'ssome elements that other people
can relate with that maybe gaveup on themselves, not realizing
(11:45):
that it can be the push thatgets them to where you are.
SPEAKER_00 (11:47):
Thanks.
That's a really tough question.
Not because it's hard to answer,but just because that is there's
a lot of different directions Icould go.
I will tell you this.
I mean, not most of us who arein sales, I don't know that we
ever aspired necessarily to besalespeople.
In fact, I was a music educationmajor, not anywhere near sales,
right?
I also, as a kid, was verydifferent than I am today.
(12:08):
I am a much more confident todaythan I've ever been.
I can tell you what I exactlywhat I think, but I do it with
uh coming from kindness.
So the way I do it maybe is notquite as crass or abrasive, but
it took me a long time to get tothis point.
And that was because for me, Iwent through a lot of challenges
as a kid.
I mean, we don't have to spend awhole lot of time unpacking
(12:29):
that, but but I will tell youthat that having had childhood
trauma, I walked out of that andand started to figure out who I
was.
And by the way, that was a long,long, long journey.
I mean, I just started thatjourney at 50 and I'm only
turning 53 next month.
So it was a very long process.
But as I went through thatjourney, what I uncovered were
bits and pieces of myself thatthat really helped drive where I
(12:54):
am today from a salesprofession, which means I
realized how important it was tobuild a relationship, which by
the way, you can do that in any.
Let's be clear.
SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
Anyone listening to this podcast, there's not a
time.
I don't care what you're doing,you're always selling.
SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
Okay, go ahead.
Always.
You're selling a project, anidea, a success that you've had,
anything.
But but nonetheless, it isreally about I wanted to find
ways to continue to buildrelationships, show people that
selling could be done in adifferent way because it is more
than just making money.
It is more than just selling asolution, it's helping people
(13:36):
solve problems.
And quite honestly, I thrive inthis space.
And it took me a long time torealize because I needed someone
to solve problems for me, and Ididn't have that person as a
kid.
And it once I realized what thatwas or what was driving me, it
enabled me to really open upmore opportunities within myself
(13:58):
to share more of my gifts, to bestronger and bolder in my
experiences and my successes,and to be able to just stand
before people today, whether ina one-to-one session or on a
stage or sessions like this, andshare not just my story, but the
reasons for why we should bebetter versions of ourselves
(14:18):
today.
Whether you're in sales or not,we should be better versions of
ourselves, making it less aboutus and more about them.
SPEAKER_01 (14:25):
Denise, I love everything that you said.
Thank you so much for beingquite frankly so heart-led in
that answer.
Here, here is something thatreally comes up as I think about
what you're saying.
First and foremost, sales issomething that that regardless
of what your title is, you needit.
But the next piece is there's anelement of who we were in the
(14:50):
beginning that positions us totruly understand and take to
heart what service of anothermeans.
Either you had it happenbeautifully for you, so you know
how to do it beautifully, or youhad a huge gap in how it was
(15:11):
done for you, and you said, I'mgonna take ownership for making
sure that no one ever has todeal with that kind of gap.
Honestly, sociologically, whatyou're bringing forward to me is
just some nuances.
I truly believe that anyone canlearn sales.
I do believe that.
(15:31):
However, I'm gonna saysomething, it might be
controversial.
Anyone can learn it, anyone canlearn to play the guitar, anyone
can learn to play the piano,anyone can learn to paint.
There are only a few folks thatare great at it.
And I believe that could becontroversial, but I'm just
(15:51):
gonna say it.
I believe it.
And what you just shared gave mea different seeing, which is
what makes the great great oftenis our foundational experiences
that contribute to being greatat that thing.
Either it happens so vividly andbeautifully for you that you
(16:15):
have a standard that you can'tsee past when you're doing it,
or there was a gap, and yousaid, This is when I know I
cannot proliferate this.
I will do different, I willserve more.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
Girl, why well, and I think too, that really comes
with us being honest withourselves and really wanting to
find answers.
What makes us great?
How can we get better, right?
And that has to be an evolutionthat we go through, a
transformation, a journey,whatever you want to call it,
that we have to choose on ourown to go through.
And once we do that, I alwayssay that if you don't take care
(16:51):
of your baggage, it's gonna comeback to bite you in the and it
will show up in your professionand in your personal world,
right?
Your professional world and yourpersonal world if you don't take
care of it.
But when you start to take careof it, you really do truly
understand where your value is,where your strengths are, what
you want to improve on.
And it enables you then to giveback to the world what you have
(17:14):
been given yourself.
It allows you to express yourgifts and share because we all
have a gift and it's our job.
We are put here on this earth toshare our gifts.
We are learners, we are, we arenurturers, we want to hear and
listen and see and continue togrow.
And we can only be a part ofthat community if we're also
giving what we've learned sothat we can foster that growth.
SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
On that note, I'm just gonna say that was awesome.
I think anyone listening willreceive so much goodness just in
that piece of it.
Before we say goodbye, threethings going into the future
that someone who is trying tohone their skills and sales,
(17:59):
right?
Three things that they need toput on their mind and think
about how to tackle or how toget really good at so that they
can continue to be great or beon the journey to being great.
SPEAKER_00 (18:12):
Yeah, so three things.
So I would say one is you gottalearn how to how to leverage
these new technologies.
AI, yes, you have to you have tolearn to do that because they
should be helping you, as yousaid, Chantra, become efficient.
They should be doing the mundanetasks that you're already that
you shouldn't have to do andallow you to focus on the higher
(18:32):
value activities.
That's sales or in life ingeneral, right?
So you've got to learn how toembrace technology.
You also have to start learningthat you have to take a breath,
step back, take a breath, andmake it more about them and less
about you.
And that I really do think inany profession or in your
personal life, but specificallyin sales, you really do have to
(18:56):
understand why you're doingthis.
You have to find the passionwithin you because it doesn't
matter what you're selling, youare solving a problem.
And you should be trying to makeyour buyer the hero.
Whatever that hero looks likefor that person, that should be
your goal.
So making sure that youdefinitely adopt technology,
that you truly make it lessabout you and more about them.
(19:20):
And I think that you reallyshould, and I can't even
remember the third point now,damn it.
You should awesome.
We went, we went nonstop, andnow here we are.
SPEAKER_01 (19:32):
The last point is that you should remember to be
authentic and you shouldremember that your why is about
solving a problem for them.
Period in the story.
I I think that is hilarious onthe Proven Not Perfect podcast.
We are not perfect, but we areproven.
(19:53):
Denise, you have been a joy totalk to.
It's been a snack, but it's beena very power-packed snack.
And I appreciate your time.
And man, so excited for youcontinuing to do what you do.
How can folks that are lookingto impact sales experience,
sales training?
Um, it sounds like you do someindividual coaching, some
(20:15):
fractional work, and you alsocan do some work with larger
corporations as well as theythink about selling philosophies
with their teams.
Where can they find you?
SPEAKER_00 (20:26):
On LinkedIn.
That's the easiest place to findme.
Just find me there.
I'm a LinkedIn top voice.
I try to go there every day.
I don't publish as much contentas I used to, but you can hit me
up in the DMs, find an old postand comment there, reach out
there on LinkedIn.
I'm always around somewhere oranother.
Excellent.
It's been a joy.
Have a wonderful, wonderful restof the day.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Thank you for spending time with Proven That
Perfect.
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