September 9, 2025 • 39 mins
What if dreaming small could actually lead to greater impact than chasing grandiose visions? Liz Bohannon challenges conventional wisdom about success, ambition, and fulfillment in this thought-provoking conversation about finding meaning in a noisy world.
Bohannon shares her evolution from an externally successful but internally lonely achiever to a community-focused entrepreneur who champions the power of starting where you are. She introduces her revolutionary concept of "dreaming small" - not as a limitation but as a permission to pursue the things that genuinely light us up without the paralyzing pressure of world-changing expectations.
With fascinating research and personal insights, Liz explains why "owning your average" might be the most liberating mindset shift you can make. She reveals how praising inherent talent over effort actually hampers growth and why embracing our ordinariness paradoxically leads to extraordinary results. Her perspective frees us from the exhausting pursuit of specialness and invites us into authentic contribution.
The conversation takes a compelling turn toward community as Bohannon makes a powerful case for social health as the missing pillar of human flourishing. With eye-opening statistics showing that regular friend connections provide happiness equivalent to a $150,000 annual raise, she illustrates how our individualistic pursuit of success undermines what truly makes us thrive. From suburban design to workplace expectations, she traces how we've systematically dismantled the community structures that once provided belonging and purpose.
Perhaps most refreshing is Bohannon's nuanced take on gender and achievement. Rather than advocating for women to simply climb higher on existing ladders, she envisions a world where success is redefined for everyone - where men feel empowered to prioritize family and community alongside career, and where "having it all" means having what truly matters.
Ready to reimagine success on your own terms? Listen now and discover how aligning your daily choices with your deepest values creates a life of authentic impact - no matter how small it might seem to others.
Drive, Ambition, Doing, Leading, Creating... all good until we forget about our own self-care. This Village of All-Stars pays it forward with transparency about misses and celebration in winning. We cover many topics and keep it 100. We are Proven Not Perfect™️
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Liz Bohannon how are you?
Good, I'm even better now thatI'm hanging out with you, so
thanks so much for having me onyour show.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Oh, my goodness.
Honestly, it is a privilege tohave you here and I want to jump
right in because there's somuch to unpack and explore with
you.
Folks have to know who you are.
You're very well known andrecognized for business startups
of women in the community, forVC-backed businesses, when,
(00:34):
quite frankly, that wasn't evena thing, when the number was so
very low.
You have boldly startedbusinesses, you've boldly
created concepts, you've writtenbooks.
You've written books, you'vedone podcasts, you've done
everything and you've evenbranded yourself with the
funniest and best brand.
Honestly, I love it.
(00:55):
Pluck it up all the time.
I mean, it doesn't get betterthan that.
So I want to do justice to yourorigin story by just asking you
would you share?
Who is Liz Bohannon today as wetalk?
And then, who were you in yourearliest years, your younger
(01:16):
years?
Who were you then and how'd youget here?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Okay, so who am I today?
I am Liz Bohannon, wife to BenBohannon, mother to three young
boys.
I am a dedicated communitymember and friend.
That's a really important partof my life.
I am an entrepreneur as well asa other people call me a
(01:41):
thought leader.
As a other people call me athought leader, a book writer, a
podcaster, a public speaker, Iwould probably, I think I shy
away from the term thoughtleader because I think what I
actually bring to spaces is ainsatiable sense of curiosity.
I don't consider myself anexpert, but I consider myself
insatiably curious and thensomebody who gets really curious
(02:03):
and then actually putsprinciples that she's curious
about and discovering intopractice, and that's why I would
call myself a practitioner.
Who was I in my earlier days?
There was a season of my lifewhere I would have said I was
externally really thriving andoutgoing and had a lot of
(02:25):
friends, but was very lonely,very lonely, very isolated,
probably spent a lot of my lifekind of in fear of being found
out and in hiding, which I thinkreally contributed to my
passion for community and forbelonging.
I don't think we typically setout to solve problems that we
haven't actually experiencedourselves, and in a later season
(02:49):
I would have said I was like aworld changer.
I think that would have beensomething that I really
identified with.
I wanted to go out and I wantedto have big ideas and I wanted
to make a big impact in theworld and I still believe very
deeply in creating a very bigimpact.
But I think I'm a little bit ofa big.
I think I have some reformationaround dreaming big and
(03:10):
changing the world and I'm alittle bit more excited about
starting small and changing asmall corner of the world than I
am the entire world, and sothat's a little bit about where
I've been and where I am now.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Liz, honestly, I think that's beautiful and I
think that was one of the thingsthat really drew me to your
story the fact that you talkabout dreaming small, and that
is absolutely the contra of theconcept that we've all heard
forever.
Right, yeah, but you talk aboutthat and you tell the story of
(03:47):
your journey around the world.
Tell me a little bit, tell us alittle bit about what's
dreaming small and why do yousay dreaming small and not dream
big?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, you know, listen, I think there's probably
some people who are listeningto this that the dream big
messaging has really served them, and if that is you, I'd say
who am I?
You go for it.
If you feel like you aredreaming big and you are
executing on those big dreams, Iam rooting for you.
However, over the course of thelast probably 20 years, what
(04:18):
I've realized is I've reallyleaned in and paid attention is
that oftentimes a lot of thekind of ubiquitous self-help
inspirational platitudes that Ithink we think are helping
people dream big and find yourpassion and find your people,
and you know, you just have tobelieve that you're really
special because you're amazing.
Go out and then you can make aspecial, amazing difference in
(04:38):
the world, every single one ofthose that I just listed out.
I think, when you actually kindof pause and sit with it and
then go, how is this actuallyimpacting people?
I think a lot of it actuallycreates and completely
unintended, but the impact islike it makes people feel
overwhelmed and makes peoplefeel like they're lost, they're
(04:59):
far behind, that everybody elsehas got it going on, that
they're broken because theydon't know what their passion is
or they haven't had a big dreamyet, and so I think that part
of living a really beautifullife and ultimately making an
impact is letting go of some ofthose like kind of grandiose
maxims and instead givingourselves permission to be
(05:22):
faithful to what, for some of us, might be what the world might
look at and go.
That's not a big dream.
You're not going to win a NobelPeace Prize for that, like
you're never going to get onOprah Winfrey for that.
But if we treated our smalldreams the kind of still small
dreams in our hearts that makeour hearts beat a little bit
faster, that make us come tolife, that are solving a problem
(05:44):
that we think at least a fewother people in the world might
have experienced, and we arefaithful towards that, and give
those dreams the energy andrespect that I think we tend to
think we would give big dreamsif we happen to have them that
that can actually really launchus out of this state of kind of
paralyzed waiting or analyzingor being in a paralyzed kind of
(06:07):
imposter syndrome state and intoa state of creating, and
oftentimes that creating andjust the act of creating, I
think creates momentum.
It creates momentum for us.
I think it creates momentum forthe people around us and I
found that it's just like alittle.
It's kind of just like can weall just chill out a little bit?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Girl, can we say that ?
Can we all chill out?
And I love that because I thinkfor me, when I think about that
dream small concept, it doestake a little bit of the
pressure off, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Doesn't that just kind of feel like, oh, we're
allowed to do that, we'reallowed to do that, we're
(07:06):
allowed to do that protectingthem and their nuclear family?
But generative in the sensethat they are living healthy,
thriving lives and, as a result,the folks in their orbit seemed
to be healthier and morethriving, aren't necessarily the
ones that are doing the biggeststuff or the busiest work.
Sometimes that absolutely is acalling and sometimes that's.
You know, you've got peoplethat pursue small things and
then momentum starts to you know, gain, and it becomes this huge
(07:30):
thing, and that's amazing whenthat happens.
But it's size just doesn'treally seem to be an indicator
of health and thriving.
What seems to be the strongestindicator is values.
And have you stopped and gonelike?
Who am I?
What do I care about?
What do I want the world tolook like?
And does my life?
Is my life actually areflection of that?
(07:51):
And when I say life, I reallylike to even tap further and
further into that, because evenlike, does my life reflect these
values?
I don't know.
I would go well, let's make itsmaller and smaller and smaller.
How do you spend your hours?
Because that's how you spendyour days, which is how you
spend your weeks, which is howyou spend your years, which is
how you spend your lives.
And the folks that I think aremaking the biggest impact in the
(08:13):
world sometimes from a metricstandpoint and sometimes maybe
not are the ones who have themost integrated intentional
values, aligned life, and so I'mmuch more concerned about folks
going after their dreams thatare aligned with their values
than I am about the size of saiddreams.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Girl.
Honestly, there's so much thatwe can talk about there.
But I want to also explore thisnotion of own your average.
That's another phrase.
You don't want to be average.
Who wants to be average?
What?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I didn't buy that T-shirt, liz, at all dis right
when it's like no, we were allmeant to be special.
(09:07):
And listen again, this is likemessaging that I think I don't
think anybody was like sittingaround a boardroom table being
like how do we come up with someplatitudes that actually end up
discouraging people?
I think it's all very goodnatured and we're all doing the
best we can with the informationthat we have at the time, but I
think at a certain point and Idon't know I want to say that
millennials were the first thatreally got this messaging hard.
(09:27):
There was kind of this sensethat was like okay, in order to
convince kids to like go out andto have big dreams and act on
their big dreams, first we haveto convince them that they are
especially special.
So once they believe thatthey're special, above average
right, I don't know, especiallysmart, especially talented,
especially gifted, whatever itis that's going to give them the
(09:48):
confidence that they need tothen go out and like make this
big impact and be successful inthe world.
And what the social scienceshows us very clearly is that
that's actually not how humanpsychology works and that
actually, the more we're fed amessage that we are above
average and we just need to likebelieve that we're above
(10:09):
average, we actually start tokind of subconsciously act out
of fear.
So there was a reallyinteresting study that I love
it's influenced how I show up inthe world, how I parent my
children where they gave twogroups of kids a math test or
puzzles I think it was actuallypuzzles and they told the first
group that they were chosenbecause they were like,
(10:30):
specifically like you're smart,you've been identified as really
smart.
They didn't tell the secondgroup anything.
They're like do these puzzlesright?
So then they get the resultsback.
They're looking at the results.
As they're looking at theresults, they're reaffirming
that message.
So the kids in that first groupthat did good, they're like wow,
you did really good solvingthese puzzles.
We knew you were really smart.
(10:52):
And the kids in the other groupthey were like the ones that
did well.
They were like good job, youdid good.
You must've worked really hardon that, you must put in a lot
of effort because you did goodon that.
What they found was that thenthey went back and they asked
each group of students.
They were like okay, we've gota second round of puzzles going.
Would you like the morechallenging set of puzzles or
would you like the easier set ofpuzzles?
And the kids that were toldthat they did well because they
(11:12):
were inherently smarter giftedchose the easier set of puzzles.
The kids that were praised fortheir ethic, for their stick to
it-ness, for trying really hard,rose their hands and said I'll
take the challenging one.
And then when they actually didthe puzzles, not only did they
choose more challenging sets ofpuzzles, they actually performed
better than the kids in thefirst group.
(11:34):
So this whole kind of messagingthat it's like oh, you're
uniquely gifted, you areuniquely talented what it often
does is it actually creates kindof this sense of fear that like
, oh, people think I'm smart, Ineed to only say yes to things
that are going to reinforcepeople's ideas of who I am.
I'm only going to say yes tothings that I think I can thrive
(11:55):
at, that I think I can be goodat from the beginning.
That will make other people gooh yeah, see, she's just so
gifted, she just picked that upand she got so good at it so
fast.
Whereas, see, she's just sogifted, she just picked that up
and she got so good at it sofast.
Whereas the kids who are reallypraised for their work ethic,
for their tenacity, for theirproblem solving.
They're eager to show that partoff of who they are, and so
they'll take on a big challengeand go, even if I suck at first.
(12:16):
Here's an opportunity for me toshow that I'm tenacious, that
I'm gritty, that I can problemsolve, that I can persevere,
which of course that's growthmentality, and we know that that
serves us so much better in thelong run.
And so my whole principle aboutowning your average is is it
sounds kind of harsh that it'slike, well, literally math, math
, mathematically speaking, wecan't all be above average, like
(12:40):
that's literally not howaverages work, like there's a
bell curve and the vast majorityof us are kind of somewhere in
the bell curve.
So let's just own it, let's belike.
You know, let's just imaginewe're all kind of jumbled up in
there together.
That's not a precursor toliving an extraordinary, above
average life.
And so I think all of thisstuff about self-talk and, like
(13:02):
you know, whatever power, posingand standing in front of the
mirror and telling yourselfyou're amazing, again, if this
stuff works for you, go for it,like by all means, like if it
serves you absolutely.
But what the science wouldactually show is a lot more
helpful is like let's take itdown a notch, let's be like what
does it look like to walk intothis space and not be the best,
but maybe to be the most curiousor the most aware of other
(13:25):
people and how you can serveothers?
There's so many other trains ofthought that serve us so much
more than how do I walk into aroom and show that I'm above
average, that I'm smarter thaneveryone else, that I'm more
talented, that I'm more gifted,because that means that I'm
special.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
I think anchoring on these words, on these concepts,
has a way, both of these phrases, of not only taking the
pressure down a little bit butalso making it easy to sort of
anchor and focus and prioritize.
We like to tell my brood ofathletes in my family keep the
(14:00):
main thing, the main thing.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Period Right, and to me, these concepts that you have
put out into the world as apractitioner really, really do
allow a solution for how peoplecan better keep the main thing,
the main thing.
In particular in a time where Idon't know, as the clock turned
(14:24):
2025, it just truly inherentlyfeels like the Earth's orbit
just kind of sped up right and Iknow I'm not the only one that
feels that right and there's somany energetic influences that
are happening right now, whetherit's our phones, whether it's
whatever.
It is right, it's everythingright, new cycles on tilt.
(14:46):
I talk to friends and membersin my community where the big
struggle right now is it feelsso noisy that I'm now losing my
own anchor on what actually ismy priority, losing my own
anchor on what actually is mypriority.
Yeah, did anybody say anythinglike that to you?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
or oh, absolutely, yes, I think there is.
You know, the reality is we'venever had access to more
information than we've had, likein the history of humanity.
And I think that there was likethis brief moment where we all,
because we knew so much, wekind of cared about so much and
(15:28):
it was kind of like this ishappening and this is happening,
we got to do this and we got todo that, and then it caught up
with us and it was just like, oh, actually, the like us as
humans, we weren't made, we werenot made to know this much, to
process this much, to have anopinion and a hot take and an
action that relates to each ofthese things.
And so what I'm seeing now isan extraordinary amount of
(15:53):
overwhelm, of apathy, ofnumbness, and I think we thought
the more we know, the betterwe'll do, the more we know, the
more we'll care.
But I think what actuallyhappened is we just got
completely overloaded.
And so, you know, I thinkkeeping the main thing, the main
thing, when I think about it inthe context of kind of our
(16:16):
purpose and our calling, is likeyou have permission to care
about one thing and to have yourheart really break for one
thing and to stay tender towardsone thing.
And it's okay if you can't havethat same amount of tenderness,
awareness, empathy towardsevery issue in the world, but
(16:38):
please don't let that reactionto the overwhelm actually close
you up so much that nothingbreaks your heart anymore, that
nothing brings you to lifeanymore.
And so when I'm coaching andencouraging folks who are out
there looking for their passion,you know, I actually just did a
podcast, like a couple minutesago, with an entrepreneur who is
(17:00):
focusing on mental health and Iwas trying to understand a
little bit more about kind oflike what piece of the puzzle,
because you know, on mentalhealth, and I was trying to
understand a little bit moreabout kind of like what piece of
the puzzle, because you know,mental health is obviously like
a huge thing that you can tacklefrom so many different angles.
And I was asking he was likeokay, well, we do this.
And I was like okay, and thenafter that, is there any
opportunity?
You know, are you doing this?
And he was kind of like well,no, not yet, but you know,
(17:21):
eventually we will.
And I just really encouragedhim.
I was like you might grow inthat direction to offer that
different piece of the puzzle,but also it's really brilliant
if you can go.
This is kind of the specificmissing piece that we play and
we're going to do that part andwe're going to do it excellently
and we're going to do it to thebest of our ability.
And just because, again, justbecause you care about one thing
(17:46):
doesn't mean that you can careabout everything, and so that is
I think my greatest hope forwhere we're at now is that there
can be a return to kind of justlike more protected tender
spaces where we allow ourselvesto be impacted and to have our
(18:09):
hearts broken and to get reallyexcited about something without
feeling like it has to be abouteverything.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
A whole conversation there and I know we don't have
time for it.
I want to.
I want to touch on, even for afew minutes, this notion and
this idea of community, becauseI think also that's a very
(18:42):
relevant and timely topic where,in incredibly rich and
experiential for multiplecultures, multiple walks of life
, multiple economic backgroundsbased on school choices that my
family had for us, all thethings right that I know
single-handedly underpinned mebeing able to successfully
(19:06):
navigate a move from the bayouto business in New York City and
on around the world.
That being said, my concern forthose in next two generations
is that they will not have thatmemory that I do when it could
be that way.
(19:27):
So community is a hot topic.
So tell me, what does communitymean to you first, and then,
how are you owning that value inyour life in the way that you
choose to be?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah, Well, you've touched on something that I care
very much about and I would saykind of opposite to you.
My passion for communityprobably is more linked to the
lack of it that I had growing up.
So I feel like by the time Iwas born I was already born into
and of course you know it'slike, yes, this was happening at
culture at large, butsubcultures matter so much and
(20:03):
norms within neighborhoods orfamilies can really impact our
understanding of the world.
But I grew up in a very classiclike middle-class Midwest
suburb where the aspirationalgoal like really the more
successful you are, which reallyis measured by how much money
you make, the further out and inmy I grew up in St Louis,
(20:26):
missouri, and so there's eventhis really, really strong kind
of like city county dynamic thatit was like the road to success
was be successful so you canmake more money, so you can move
further away from the city andfrom people and have more space,
more privacy, more safety, morecomfort and so that kind of
like suburban, the dream of thesuburbs and the bigger lot with
(20:49):
the taller fence, and you know,even we see this even in city
planning and kind ofarchitectural design and you
know all of these like very,very tangible things where it's
like, well, we used to park our.
First of all, we didn't havecars, okay, and so then we were
like that's a whole nother erawhere it was like we were truly.
It was like the town square andwe had to live in proximity to
(21:12):
one another because everythinghad to be within walking
distance.
And then when we got theautomobile, it enabled us to
really spread out.
And then there was a whilethere that we were all parking
our cars on the street and thenwe were like, oh, we don't want
to do that, let's, we want tohave a little bit more privacy,
so we're going to put our carsunder carports.
And then carports turned intogarages, but garages were still
typically, kind of the fashionwas at the front of the house,
(21:32):
so your garage door would openup towards the street and then
eventually, kind of, the peak ofaspirational living is that you
had a house that was big enoughthat your garage was actually
behind your house, and so thatseems like that's like, okay,
it's aesthetics, it's design,it's like architecture, it's
city planning, and it's likeit's actually so much more than
that, because when we thinkabout the actual human
(21:53):
experience that that designfacilitates is, all of a sudden
we went from.
We literally run into ourneighbors multiple times a day
because we're all walking to thebakery, the cobbler, the
banking institution, the school,to we're driving off to our
separate places to when I getout of my car, I actually
(22:15):
literally go from my own littleprivate pod of my car, drive
into my driveway, go behind myhouse, drive into my garage,
shut the garage door behind mebefore I exit out of my little
private armored vehicle and whatthat enables me to do is to
never have to see or interactwith a single person.
And that seemingly small designchoice has, amongst hundreds of
(22:39):
others, have an incrediblyprofound impact on our sense of
belonging, our sense ofcommunity, our sense of safety.
We've been sold this tale that,like we want to be safe, we
have to move away from people,we have to invest in things like
security systems, and it's likewhat actually makes people feel
safe is a sense that I know myneighbors, my neighbors know me.
(23:01):
We're all watching out for oneanother and I'm not alone.
There's people that I can askfor help from, there's people
that we're living in closeenough proximity that we're
actually able to observe oneanother and to provide and to
ask and to give help to one.
That is actually what createssafety, and the science and the
data is, like so clear.
(23:23):
I mean, there was a study thatshowed that people who see their
friends at least three times aweek which, by the way, was
average like about 15 years ago,the average American was
spending about six and a halfhours a week with their friends.
Now, 15 years later, that hasplummeted.
It's less than two hours a week.
So that's a 60% reduction, anenormous social behavior shift
(23:45):
in a relatively short amount oftime.
So the time that we've spentwith our friends has decreased
by 60%.
However, people who see theirfriends three or more times a
week report an average lifesatisfaction increase that's
equivalent to a $150,000 a yearraise.
So, like what do we think isgoing to make life better,
(24:07):
easier, happier, less stressful,like if I just had more money
right, and it's actually likeyou know what actually makes you
feel better, more fulfilled,less stressful, like life is
more doable.
It's feeling like you're a partof a community and that you're
not, that you're not on your own.
People that just see andinteract with their neighbors
I'm not even talking friendsjust are friendly with their
(24:28):
neighbors, report an averagekind of wellbeing score that's
equivalent with a $60,000 a yearraise.
So we're just going after thewrong things and listen.
We're going after the thingsthat we think are going to make
us happier, less stress, morefulfilled, and at the end of the
day, I deeply believe that itis a return to social health and
(24:49):
communities, these densenetworks of support whether
that's really close friendgroups, whether that's how an
organization operates, whetherthat's an actual proximate
neighborhood that in order to befully flourishing humans, the
actual third pillar of humanflourishing, we know about
physical health and we've growna lot in our understanding about
(25:11):
the importance of physicalhealth, about, you know,
probably starting maybe like 30or 40 years ago.
The last two decades has reallybeen a rise in understanding the
importance of mental health.
But both physical health andmental health, a lot of the ways
that we talk about those, youcan pursue those things in
isolation, like you can go toyoga five times a week, you can
have a super clean diet, you canmeditate for an hour every
(25:34):
morning.
You can do all of that on yourown.
But the third pillar to humanflourishing is social health.
And if our physical health andour mental health isn't
alongside a pillar of socialhealth, then actually, all of
the benefits that we've beenpromised from increased physical
health and mental health, weactually don't get to access the
full benefit of that, becausewe're missing a really big piece
(25:56):
of the pie.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Okay, so there's so much more here, we do not have
enough time, I'd love to keep.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I can really run my mouth about things I'm
passionate about.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
And I'm as curious as you are.
So this could, this could weprobably have.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I think I can hear my kids outside.
So my guess is, we have likeanother 10 minutes oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
All right, so we won't rush completely, but I do
want to ask you this, inparticular in a landscape where
we're seeing shifts of women inbusiness and corporate and
(26:38):
leadership positions, wherethere was a big movement for the
climbing of the ladder and theascension into C-suite and
senior leadership positions,which you know many of us have,
just that has been the goalright.
And then a little bit of abacktracking starts to happen
around COVID time.
(26:59):
And now you've got this blendedexistence right.
Community initially, as itrelated to women in career,
involved resource groups thatwere all driving toward the same
mark.
But if I'm taking nothing awayfrom this conversation, I'm
taking this idea, this notionfor us all to unpack.
(27:24):
That goes to what are youdriving for, what are you
passionate about?
And then how do you create thecommunity that shares that
belief and is working towardthat thing and becomes a little
bit of a right muscle for you asyou're building toward your own
future?
Tell me your thoughts on that.
(27:45):
You know, as you think abouthow things are shifting and have
shifted and these communitiestake on new personas, do you see
them emerging to have differentoffers and value for women in
career or do you think you knowit's still very homogenous.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
You know it's interesting specifically as we
think about women in theworkplace.
I feel like you're right.
So much of the language for solong.
Well, I mean, I guess itstarted out with like women
don't belong in the workplace,and then there was a movement
towards we do belong, belong inthe workplace and we belong at
the highest echelons ofleadership, and so in order to
do that, we have to what we haveto lean in, we have to play the
(28:27):
game that the men designed andwe have to sit at the tables
that the men designed and wehave to play the same game.
And I think you're right.
I think COVID was a reallyprofound both opportunity for
some women who were going.
I don't know if this is workingfor me, but also a lot of women
(28:48):
were forced into having to pullback from their careers who
didn't necessarily want to,because the burden of kids being
out of school and daycaresbeing closed down and family
members needing to be cared forthe burden of that really fell
on women.
But still the conversation waskind of like it's still all
about playing by the men's rules.
(29:08):
I think what I'm interested inis like I think the next wave of
progress is like less about.
When are the women gonna like?
Are we acting more or less likemen and more?
When are the dudes going tostart playing more by the rules
that we've actually been playingby for a long time, which I
think is typically morethoughtful, more intentional?
(29:32):
I think women are much quickerand these are all
generalizations because we'reall on a spectrum and wired very
differently but in general, Ifind that women infuse and have
a little bit more intentionalityaround.
How am I spending my time andmy energy, and is it the highest
, best use of my time, and whenis enough enough?
(29:55):
I think that that is a problemand I don't think that men are
completely at fault for this,because I think society has
conditioned men.
The lie that men believe isthat you will feel better, more
whole, healthier, thriving, morerespected.
The answer to all of yourproblems is just more.
It's more success, it's morepower, it's more money, it's
(30:15):
more prestige, it's moreprivilege, and I think that's a
load of shit that we've given tomen, and I also think we don't
talk enough about how thatmessaging is impacting men.
I think that's a very diceyconversation that people are
afraid to have because no onewants to be the person who's
like oh, the poor men.
And also I feel fine with beinglike when we look at the data,
(30:37):
men are not doing well right now.
Men are five times lonelier infriendship than they were in the
1990s suicide, alcoholism, drugaddiction, anxiety, depression
and I think a lot of that comesfrom the message that we've
given to men, which is what Ijust said, that it's just like
(30:57):
it's never enough and there'salways going to be another
mountain to climb and alwaysgoing to be somebody else for
you to compete with, and so Ithink the next level of progress
is actually going to beunlocked when more men start
going okay, I'm, I am workingand I'm working hard and I am
working faithfully and towardsexcellence to this thing that
I've been called to out in theworkplace.
(31:19):
And you want to know what elsematters to me and what I
envision as a successful lifehaving a healthy relationship
with my partner and having kidsthat feel like I am emotionally,
physically, relationallypresent in their life, being a
community member where myneighbor, my fellow church
(31:40):
members, the parents at myschool would say oh, this place
is better and more connected andmore safe for everybody because
Jack is here and is a part ofit and really redefining what
success looks like.
I think there's so muchconversation about how women
have fallen prey to like well,you can't have it all, and I'm
like I think the world would bebetter if men were more
(32:02):
interested in having it all, youknow, and had like a broader
view of what success looked like.
And so we put so much likeemphasis on like mommy guilt.
Women have all this mommy guiltand it's like okay, we can have
a whole conversation about that, and I think we might do well
if some more men had a littledaddy guilt happening right,
like when's the daddy guilt?
Speaker 1 (32:22):
movement going to come Right.
There's the money shot, becauseI think that for so many
families right now, the missingelement is very much the fact
that the lie that's been told,right for men is as impactful as
the lies that have been toldfor women.
(32:43):
And at the core, it's what isyour value, what do you believe,
and have you assembled a lifethat allows you to live truly
and committed to those values?
Right and man?
I love that.
This one's going to be good forour guys because they're
important.
They're important to ourfamilies, they're important to
(33:03):
the next generation, and theminute we take them out of the
equation, the minute we we lose,we all lose, right.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
So, yeah, that's good .
When we do that, we're justwe're playing by the same rules
of the game that so many of usfor so long said were wrong and
oppressive and marginalizingwomen and were harmful, and
we're basically just playing bythe same rules, but we've
flipped the sides of the fieldand I'm just completely
uninterested in that game.
(33:31):
I just do not believe that it'szero sum.
I believe that true flourishing, anything that actually creates
a better world, has to bebetter for everybody.
All the players have to benefitfrom that, and so I think women
will benefit immensely whenthey don't feel like they're the
only ones that are carrying theweight of the family and of
(33:53):
children and of aging parents ontheir shoulders, and that's why
so many women feel so burnout,so resentful, so angry.
But I actually think that thatwill be an unlock to health and
to thriving for our brothers aswell as when they go.
Oh, you mean, my worth in theworld doesn't actually just come
from how much money I earn andwhat kind of car I drive and
(34:14):
what position I hold, because Iknow so many men who are really
silently suffering because thereis one definition of success
and they feel like they aren't apicture of that, and the
consequences of that are direfor them and then, by nature,
for their families and for thepeople that they depend on, and
so I'm wholly uninterested in anarrative that says it's time
(34:37):
for us to take it back, or nowto be the ones you know that are
in the position of power andinstead going.
I'm much more interested insomething that actually creates
flourishing for all.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Okay, I'm going to let you go after this one rapid
fire question.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, all right, here we go.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
So, when you are thinking about a great time,
what's your favorite thing to dofor fun?
Favorite thing to do for fun.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Okay, For me a great time would be having like five
of my best girlfriends over somegreat snacks, preferably savory
, and honestly like sitting inmy hot tub in my backyard.
I love hot tub time because Ilove feeling like everybody's
kind of like captive, you know,where people aren't like having
(35:20):
side conversations or coming inand out, it's just like a
handful of people that are kindof in one contained area and the
conversation that kind ofinvolves everybody.
Everybody has a voice because,again, those little side
conversations are happening andyou know you're in a hot tub so
things start to flow and storiesget shared.
That is my idea of a great time.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
That's a good one.
One more what's the craziestworkout phenomena right now that
you've engaged in at least onetime?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Oh well, I don't really work out.
So I now, I say that and I havedone this, Liz.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
that's what you're telling me, girlfriend.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I here's the thing I don't engage in normal workouts.
Probably the only workouts thatI've engaged in are things that
the average person would belike that's unhinged, and I'm
like those are the only things Iwould consider.
So the thing I've done mostrecently is something called
dance church and you like go tothis dance studio.
You don't stand like in a lineall looking at the instructor
(36:20):
and then looking at yourself ina mirror.
The instructor stands in themiddle of the studio, everybody
is in a circle around them, themusic is blaring, the lights are
low and it's not like achoreograph dance.
It's like she's doing kind of arepeated move, but it's like to
the beat and to the rhythm.
So then the entire group iskind of dancing in unison, ish,
(36:41):
and then the song changes, thebeat changes, so then the
instructor kind of changes andyou're just kind of like
circling around the room and soit's very not performative, like
it's not like.
Look at me, I'm doing all themoves right.
It feels just like kind of theshared.
We're all engaging in music andin this embodied experience,
but in a way that feels verylike, just like welcoming and
(37:03):
inclusive and not kind of likeyou got to do it this way to
look great or to be cool, and Ilove it.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Oh, my God.
Ok, that's a good tip, a greattip for everybody.
If you have not already done aGoogle of Liz Bohannon, you've
got to do it.
There's book, there's podcast,there's resources.
I think she even still does atwo to three day experience
where you can sit with her andstart to unpack your own small
(37:33):
dreaming, small opportunity,right and from the beginning.
So I'm super excited tocontinue to get to know you
through the journey and I justwish you the best.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
You're the coolest's, a special place and I'm just
grateful for the gifts that youare bringing to the world in
your own way.
(38:04):
So thanks for being you.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Oh, bless you, Thank you, bye.
Liz Bohannon how are you?
Good, I'm even better now thatI'm hanging out with you, so
thanks so much for having me onyour show.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Oh, my goodness.
Honestly, it is a privilege tohave you here and I want to jump
right in because there's somuch to unpack and explore with
you.
Folks have to know who you are.
You're very well known andrecognized for business startups
of women in the community, forVC-backed businesses, when,
(00:34):
quite frankly, that wasn't evena thing, when the number was so
very low.
You have boldly startedbusinesses, you've boldly
created concepts, you've writtenbooks.
You've written books, you'vedone podcasts, you've done
everything and you've evenbranded yourself with the
funniest and best brand.
Honestly, I love it.
(00:55):
Pluck it up all the time.
I mean, it doesn't get betterthan that.
So I want to do justice to yourorigin story by just asking you
would you share?
Who is Liz Bohannon today as wetalk?
And then, who were you in yourearliest years, your younger
(01:16):
years?
Who were you then and how'd youget here?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Okay, so who am I today?
I am Liz Bohannon, wife to BenBohannon, mother to three young
boys.
I am a dedicated communitymember and friend.
That's a really important partof my life.
I am an entrepreneur as well asa other people call me a
(01:41):
thought leader.
As a other people call me athought leader, a book writer, a
podcaster, a public speaker, Iwould probably, I think I shy
away from the term thoughtleader because I think what I
actually bring to spaces is ainsatiable sense of curiosity.
I don't consider myself anexpert, but I consider myself
insatiably curious and thensomebody who gets really curious
(02:03):
and then actually putsprinciples that she's curious
about and discovering intopractice, and that's why I would
call myself a practitioner.
Who was I in my earlier days?
There was a season of my lifewhere I would have said I was
externally really thriving andoutgoing and had a lot of
(02:25):
friends, but was very lonely,very lonely, very isolated,
probably spent a lot of my lifekind of in fear of being found
out and in hiding, which I thinkreally contributed to my
passion for community and forbelonging.
I don't think we typically setout to solve problems that we
haven't actually experiencedourselves, and in a later season
(02:49):
I would have said I was like aworld changer.
I think that would have beensomething that I really
identified with.
I wanted to go out and I wantedto have big ideas and I wanted
to make a big impact in theworld and I still believe very
deeply in creating a very bigimpact.
But I think I'm a little bit ofa big.
I think I have some reformationaround dreaming big and
(03:10):
changing the world and I'm alittle bit more excited about
starting small and changing asmall corner of the world than I
am the entire world, and sothat's a little bit about where
I've been and where I am now.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Liz, honestly, I think that's beautiful and I
think that was one of the thingsthat really drew me to your
story the fact that you talkabout dreaming small, and that
is absolutely the contra of theconcept that we've all heard
forever.
Right, yeah, but you talk aboutthat and you tell the story of
(03:47):
your journey around the world.
Tell me a little bit, tell us alittle bit about what's
dreaming small and why do yousay dreaming small and not dream
big?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, you know, listen, I think there's probably
some people who are listeningto this that the dream big
messaging has really served them, and if that is you, I'd say
who am I?
You go for it.
If you feel like you aredreaming big and you are
executing on those big dreams, Iam rooting for you.
However, over the course of thelast probably 20 years, what
(04:18):
I've realized is I've reallyleaned in and paid attention is
that oftentimes a lot of thekind of ubiquitous self-help
inspirational platitudes that Ithink we think are helping
people dream big and find yourpassion and find your people,
and you know, you just have tobelieve that you're really
special because you're amazing.
Go out and then you can make aspecial, amazing difference in
(04:38):
the world, every single one ofthose that I just listed out.
I think, when you actually kindof pause and sit with it and
then go, how is this actuallyimpacting people?
I think a lot of it actuallycreates and completely
unintended, but the impact islike it makes people feel
overwhelmed and makes peoplefeel like they're lost, they're
(04:59):
far behind, that everybody elsehas got it going on, that
they're broken because theydon't know what their passion is
or they haven't had a big dreamyet, and so I think that part
of living a really beautifullife and ultimately making an
impact is letting go of some ofthose like kind of grandiose
maxims and instead givingourselves permission to be
(05:22):
faithful to what, for some of us, might be what the world might
look at and go.
That's not a big dream.
You're not going to win a NobelPeace Prize for that, like
you're never going to get onOprah Winfrey for that.
But if we treated our smalldreams the kind of still small
dreams in our hearts that makeour hearts beat a little bit
faster, that make us come tolife, that are solving a problem
(05:44):
that we think at least a fewother people in the world might
have experienced, and we arefaithful towards that, and give
those dreams the energy andrespect that I think we tend to
think we would give big dreamsif we happen to have them that
that can actually really launchus out of this state of kind of
paralyzed waiting or analyzingor being in a paralyzed kind of
(06:07):
imposter syndrome state and intoa state of creating, and
oftentimes that creating andjust the act of creating, I
think creates momentum.
It creates momentum for us.
I think it creates momentum forthe people around us and I
found that it's just like alittle.
It's kind of just like can weall just chill out a little bit?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Girl, can we say that ?
Can we all chill out?
And I love that because I thinkfor me, when I think about that
dream small concept, it doestake a little bit of the
pressure off, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Doesn't that just kind of feel like, oh, we're
allowed to do that, we'reallowed to do that, we're
(07:06):
allowed to do that protectingthem and their nuclear family?
But generative in the sensethat they are living healthy,
thriving lives and, as a result,the folks in their orbit seemed
to be healthier and morethriving, aren't necessarily the
ones that are doing the biggeststuff or the busiest work.
Sometimes that absolutely is acalling and sometimes that's.
You know, you've got peoplethat pursue small things and
then momentum starts to you know, gain, and it becomes this huge
(07:30):
thing, and that's amazing whenthat happens.
But it's size just doesn'treally seem to be an indicator
of health and thriving.
What seems to be the strongestindicator is values.
And have you stopped and gonelike?
Who am I?
What do I care about?
What do I want the world tolook like?
And does my life?
Is my life actually areflection of that?
(07:51):
And when I say life, I reallylike to even tap further and
further into that, because evenlike, does my life reflect these
values?
I don't know.
I would go well, let's make itsmaller and smaller and smaller.
How do you spend your hours?
Because that's how you spendyour days, which is how you
spend your weeks, which is howyou spend your years, which is
how you spend your lives.
And the folks that I think aremaking the biggest impact in the
(08:13):
world sometimes from a metricstandpoint and sometimes maybe
not are the ones who have themost integrated intentional
values, aligned life, and so I'mmuch more concerned about folks
going after their dreams thatare aligned with their values
than I am about the size of saiddreams.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Girl.
Honestly, there's so much thatwe can talk about there.
But I want to also explore thisnotion of own your average.
That's another phrase.
You don't want to be average.
Who wants to be average?
What?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I didn't buy that T-shirt, liz, at all dis right
when it's like no, we were allmeant to be special.
(09:07):
And listen again, this is likemessaging that I think I don't
think anybody was like sittingaround a boardroom table being
like how do we come up with someplatitudes that actually end up
discouraging people?
I think it's all very goodnatured and we're all doing the
best we can with the informationthat we have at the time, but I
think at a certain point and Idon't know I want to say that
millennials were the first thatreally got this messaging hard.
(09:27):
There was kind of this sensethat was like okay, in order to
convince kids to like go out andto have big dreams and act on
their big dreams, first we haveto convince them that they are
especially special.
So once they believe thatthey're special, above average
right, I don't know, especiallysmart, especially talented,
especially gifted, whatever itis that's going to give them the
(09:48):
confidence that they need tothen go out and like make this
big impact and be successful inthe world.
And what the social scienceshows us very clearly is that
that's actually not how humanpsychology works and that
actually, the more we're fed amessage that we are above
average and we just need to likebelieve that we're above
(10:09):
average, we actually start tokind of subconsciously act out
of fear.
So there was a reallyinteresting study that I love
it's influenced how I show up inthe world, how I parent my
children where they gave twogroups of kids a math test or
puzzles I think it was actuallypuzzles and they told the first
group that they were chosenbecause they were like,
(10:30):
specifically like you're smart,you've been identified as really
smart.
They didn't tell the secondgroup anything.
They're like do these puzzlesright?
So then they get the resultsback.
They're looking at the results.
As they're looking at theresults, they're reaffirming
that message.
So the kids in that first groupthat did good, they're like wow,
you did really good solvingthese puzzles.
We knew you were really smart.
(10:52):
And the kids in the other groupthey were like the ones that
did well.
They were like good job, youdid good.
You must've worked really hardon that, you must put in a lot
of effort because you did goodon that.
What they found was that thenthey went back and they asked
each group of students.
They were like okay, we've gota second round of puzzles going.
Would you like the morechallenging set of puzzles or
would you like the easier set ofpuzzles?
And the kids that were toldthat they did well because they
(11:12):
were inherently smarter giftedchose the easier set of puzzles.
The kids that were praised fortheir ethic, for their stick to
it-ness, for trying really hard,rose their hands and said I'll
take the challenging one.
And then when they actually didthe puzzles, not only did they
choose more challenging sets ofpuzzles, they actually performed
better than the kids in thefirst group.
(11:34):
So this whole kind of messagingthat it's like oh, you're
uniquely gifted, you areuniquely talented what it often
does is it actually creates kindof this sense of fear that like
, oh, people think I'm smart, Ineed to only say yes to things
that are going to reinforcepeople's ideas of who I am.
I'm only going to say yes tothings that I think I can thrive
(11:55):
at, that I think I can be goodat from the beginning.
That will make other people gooh yeah, see, she's just so
gifted, she just picked that upand she got so good at it so
fast.
Whereas, see, she's just sogifted, she just picked that up
and she got so good at it sofast.
Whereas the kids who are reallypraised for their work ethic,
for their tenacity, for theirproblem solving.
They're eager to show that partoff of who they are, and so
they'll take on a big challengeand go, even if I suck at first.
(12:16):
Here's an opportunity for me toshow that I'm tenacious, that
I'm gritty, that I can problemsolve, that I can persevere,
which of course that's growthmentality, and we know that that
serves us so much better in thelong run.
And so my whole principle aboutowning your average is is it
sounds kind of harsh that it'slike, well, literally math, math
, mathematically speaking, wecan't all be above average, like
(12:40):
that's literally not howaverages work, like there's a
bell curve and the vast majorityof us are kind of somewhere in
the bell curve.
So let's just own it, let's belike.
You know, let's just imaginewe're all kind of jumbled up in
there together.
That's not a precursor toliving an extraordinary, above
average life.
And so I think all of thisstuff about self-talk and, like
(13:02):
you know, whatever power, posingand standing in front of the
mirror and telling yourselfyou're amazing, again, if this
stuff works for you, go for it,like by all means, like if it
serves you absolutely.
But what the science wouldactually show is a lot more
helpful is like let's take itdown a notch, let's be like what
does it look like to walk intothis space and not be the best,
but maybe to be the most curiousor the most aware of other
(13:25):
people and how you can serveothers?
There's so many other trains ofthought that serve us so much
more than how do I walk into aroom and show that I'm above
average, that I'm smarter thaneveryone else, that I'm more
talented, that I'm more gifted,because that means that I'm
special.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
I think anchoring on these words, on these concepts,
has a way, both of these phrases, of not only taking the
pressure down a little bit butalso making it easy to sort of
anchor and focus and prioritize.
We like to tell my brood ofathletes in my family keep the
(14:00):
main thing, the main thing.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Period Right, and to me, these concepts that you have
put out into the world as apractitioner really, really do
allow a solution for how peoplecan better keep the main thing,
the main thing.
In particular in a time where Idon't know, as the clock turned
(14:24):
2025, it just truly inherentlyfeels like the Earth's orbit
just kind of sped up right and Iknow I'm not the only one that
feels that right and there's somany energetic influences that
are happening right now, whetherit's our phones, whether it's
whatever.
It is right, it's everythingright, new cycles on tilt.
(14:46):
I talk to friends and membersin my community where the big
struggle right now is it feelsso noisy that I'm now losing my
own anchor on what actually ismy priority, losing my own
anchor on what actually is mypriority.
Yeah, did anybody say anythinglike that to you?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
or oh, absolutely, yes, I think there is.
You know, the reality is we'venever had access to more
information than we've had, likein the history of humanity.
And I think that there was likethis brief moment where we all,
because we knew so much, wekind of cared about so much and
(15:28):
it was kind of like this ishappening and this is happening,
we got to do this and we got todo that, and then it caught up
with us and it was just like, oh, actually, the like us as
humans, we weren't made, we werenot made to know this much, to
process this much, to have anopinion and a hot take and an
action that relates to each ofthese things.
And so what I'm seeing now isan extraordinary amount of
(15:53):
overwhelm, of apathy, ofnumbness, and I think we thought
the more we know, the betterwe'll do, the more we know, the
more we'll care.
But I think what actuallyhappened is we just got
completely overloaded.
And so, you know, I thinkkeeping the main thing, the main
thing, when I think about it inthe context of kind of our
(16:16):
purpose and our calling, is likeyou have permission to care
about one thing and to have yourheart really break for one
thing and to stay tender towardsone thing.
And it's okay if you can't havethat same amount of tenderness,
awareness, empathy towardsevery issue in the world, but
(16:38):
please don't let that reactionto the overwhelm actually close
you up so much that nothingbreaks your heart anymore, that
nothing brings you to lifeanymore.
And so when I'm coaching andencouraging folks who are out
there looking for their passion,you know, I actually just did a
podcast, like a couple minutesago, with an entrepreneur who is
(17:00):
focusing on mental health and Iwas trying to understand a
little bit more about kind oflike what piece of the puzzle,
because you know, on mentalhealth, and I was trying to
understand a little bit moreabout kind of like what piece of
the puzzle, because you know,mental health is obviously like
a huge thing that you can tacklefrom so many different angles.
And I was asking he was likeokay, well, we do this.
And I was like okay, and thenafter that, is there any
opportunity?
You know, are you doing this?
And he was kind of like well,no, not yet, but you know,
(17:21):
eventually we will.
And I just really encouragedhim.
I was like you might grow inthat direction to offer that
different piece of the puzzle,but also it's really brilliant
if you can go.
This is kind of the specificmissing piece that we play and
we're going to do that part andwe're going to do it excellently
and we're going to do it to thebest of our ability.
And just because, again, justbecause you care about one thing
(17:46):
doesn't mean that you can careabout everything, and so that is
I think my greatest hope forwhere we're at now is that there
can be a return to kind of justlike more protected tender
spaces where we allow ourselvesto be impacted and to have our
(18:09):
hearts broken and to get reallyexcited about something without
feeling like it has to be abouteverything.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
A whole conversation there and I know we don't have
time for it.
I want to.
I want to touch on, even for afew minutes, this notion and
this idea of community, becauseI think also that's a very
(18:42):
relevant and timely topic where,in incredibly rich and
experiential for multiplecultures, multiple walks of life
, multiple economic backgroundsbased on school choices that my
family had for us, all thethings right that I know
single-handedly underpinned mebeing able to successfully
(19:06):
navigate a move from the bayouto business in New York City and
on around the world.
That being said, my concern forthose in next two generations
is that they will not have thatmemory that I do when it could
be that way.
(19:27):
So community is a hot topic.
So tell me, what does communitymean to you first, and then,
how are you owning that value inyour life in the way that you
choose to be?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah, Well, you've touched on something that I care
very much about and I would saykind of opposite to you.
My passion for communityprobably is more linked to the
lack of it that I had growing up.
So I feel like by the time Iwas born I was already born into
and of course you know it'slike, yes, this was happening at
culture at large, butsubcultures matter so much and
(20:03):
norms within neighborhoods orfamilies can really impact our
understanding of the world.
But I grew up in a very classiclike middle-class Midwest
suburb where the aspirationalgoal like really the more
successful you are, which reallyis measured by how much money
you make, the further out and inmy I grew up in St Louis,
(20:26):
missouri, and so there's eventhis really, really strong kind
of like city county dynamic thatit was like the road to success
was be successful so you canmake more money, so you can move
further away from the city andfrom people and have more space,
more privacy, more safety, morecomfort and so that kind of
like suburban, the dream of thesuburbs and the bigger lot with
(20:49):
the taller fence, and you know,even we see this even in city
planning and kind ofarchitectural design and you
know all of these like very,very tangible things where it's
like, well, we used to park our.
First of all, we didn't havecars, okay, and so then we were
like that's a whole nother erawhere it was like we were truly.
It was like the town square andwe had to live in proximity to
(21:12):
one another because everythinghad to be within walking
distance.
And then when we got theautomobile, it enabled us to
really spread out.
And then there was a whilethere that we were all parking
our cars on the street and thenwe were like, oh, we don't want
to do that, let's, we want tohave a little bit more privacy,
so we're going to put our carsunder carports.
And then carports turned intogarages, but garages were still
typically, kind of the fashionwas at the front of the house,
(21:32):
so your garage door would openup towards the street and then
eventually, kind of, the peak ofaspirational living is that you
had a house that was big enoughthat your garage was actually
behind your house, and so thatseems like that's like, okay,
it's aesthetics, it's design,it's like architecture, it's
city planning, and it's likeit's actually so much more than
that, because when we thinkabout the actual human
(21:53):
experience that that designfacilitates is, all of a sudden
we went from.
We literally run into ourneighbors multiple times a day
because we're all walking to thebakery, the cobbler, the
banking institution, the school,to we're driving off to our
separate places to when I getout of my car, I actually
(22:15):
literally go from my own littleprivate pod of my car, drive
into my driveway, go behind myhouse, drive into my garage,
shut the garage door behind mebefore I exit out of my little
private armored vehicle and whatthat enables me to do is to
never have to see or interactwith a single person.
And that seemingly small designchoice has, amongst hundreds of
(22:39):
others, have an incrediblyprofound impact on our sense of
belonging, our sense ofcommunity, our sense of safety.
We've been sold this tale that,like we want to be safe, we
have to move away from people,we have to invest in things like
security systems, and it's likewhat actually makes people feel
safe is a sense that I know myneighbors, my neighbors know me.
(23:01):
We're all watching out for oneanother and I'm not alone.
There's people that I can askfor help from, there's people
that we're living in closeenough proximity that we're
actually able to observe oneanother and to provide and to
ask and to give help to one.
That is actually what createssafety, and the science and the
data is, like so clear.
(23:23):
I mean, there was a study thatshowed that people who see their
friends at least three times aweek which, by the way, was
average like about 15 years ago,the average American was
spending about six and a halfhours a week with their friends.
Now, 15 years later, that hasplummeted.
It's less than two hours a week.
So that's a 60% reduction, anenormous social behavior shift
(23:45):
in a relatively short amount oftime.
So the time that we've spentwith our friends has decreased
by 60%.
However, people who see theirfriends three or more times a
week report an average lifesatisfaction increase that's
equivalent to a $150,000 a yearraise.
So, like what do we think isgoing to make life better,
(24:07):
easier, happier, less stressful,like if I just had more money
right, and it's actually likeyou know what actually makes you
feel better, more fulfilled,less stressful, like life is
more doable.
It's feeling like you're a partof a community and that you're
not, that you're not on your own.
People that just see andinteract with their neighbors
I'm not even talking friendsjust are friendly with their
(24:28):
neighbors, report an averagekind of wellbeing score that's
equivalent with a $60,000 a yearraise.
So we're just going after thewrong things and listen.
We're going after the thingsthat we think are going to make
us happier, less stress, morefulfilled, and at the end of the
day, I deeply believe that itis a return to social health and
(24:49):
communities, these densenetworks of support whether
that's really close friendgroups, whether that's how an
organization operates, whetherthat's an actual proximate
neighborhood that in order to befully flourishing humans, the
actual third pillar of humanflourishing, we know about
physical health and we've growna lot in our understanding about
(25:11):
the importance of physicalhealth, about, you know,
probably starting maybe like 30or 40 years ago.
The last two decades has reallybeen a rise in understanding the
importance of mental health.
But both physical health andmental health, a lot of the ways
that we talk about those, youcan pursue those things in
isolation, like you can go toyoga five times a week, you can
have a super clean diet, you canmeditate for an hour every
(25:34):
morning.
You can do all of that on yourown.
But the third pillar to humanflourishing is social health.
And if our physical health andour mental health isn't
alongside a pillar of socialhealth, then actually, all of
the benefits that we've beenpromised from increased physical
health and mental health, weactually don't get to access the
full benefit of that, becausewe're missing a really big piece
(25:56):
of the pie.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Okay, so there's so much more here, we do not have
enough time, I'd love to keep.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I can really run my mouth about things I'm
passionate about.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
And I'm as curious as you are.
So this could, this could weprobably have.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I think I can hear my kids outside.
So my guess is, we have likeanother 10 minutes oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
All right, so we won't rush completely, but I do
want to ask you this, inparticular in a landscape where
we're seeing shifts of women inbusiness and corporate and
(26:38):
leadership positions, wherethere was a big movement for the
climbing of the ladder and theascension into C-suite and
senior leadership positions,which you know many of us have,
just that has been the goalright.
And then a little bit of abacktracking starts to happen
around COVID time.
(26:59):
And now you've got this blendedexistence right.
Community initially, as itrelated to women in career,
involved resource groups thatwere all driving toward the same
mark.
But if I'm taking nothing awayfrom this conversation, I'm
taking this idea, this notionfor us all to unpack.
(27:24):
That goes to what are youdriving for, what are you
passionate about?
And then how do you create thecommunity that shares that
belief and is working towardthat thing and becomes a little
bit of a right muscle for you asyou're building toward your own
future?
Tell me your thoughts on that.
(27:45):
You know, as you think abouthow things are shifting and have
shifted and these communitiestake on new personas, do you see
them emerging to have differentoffers and value for women in
career or do you think you knowit's still very homogenous.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
You know it's interesting specifically as we
think about women in theworkplace.
I feel like you're right.
So much of the language for solong.
Well, I mean, I guess itstarted out with like women
don't belong in the workplace,and then there was a movement
towards we do belong, belong inthe workplace and we belong at
the highest echelons ofleadership, and so in order to
do that, we have to what we haveto lean in, we have to play the
(28:27):
game that the men designed andwe have to sit at the tables
that the men designed and wehave to play the same game.
And I think you're right.
I think COVID was a reallyprofound both opportunity for
some women who were going.
I don't know if this is workingfor me, but also a lot of women
(28:48):
were forced into having to pullback from their careers who
didn't necessarily want to,because the burden of kids being
out of school and daycaresbeing closed down and family
members needing to be cared forthe burden of that really fell
on women.
But still the conversation waskind of like it's still all
about playing by the men's rules.
(29:08):
I think what I'm interested inis like I think the next wave of
progress is like less about.
When are the women gonna like?
Are we acting more or less likemen and more?
When are the dudes going tostart playing more by the rules
that we've actually been playingby for a long time, which I
think is typically morethoughtful, more intentional?
(29:32):
I think women are much quickerand these are all
generalizations because we'reall on a spectrum and wired very
differently but in general, Ifind that women infuse and have
a little bit more intentionalityaround.
How am I spending my time andmy energy, and is it the highest
, best use of my time, and whenis enough enough?
(29:55):
I think that that is a problemand I don't think that men are
completely at fault for this,because I think society has
conditioned men.
The lie that men believe isthat you will feel better, more
whole, healthier, thriving, morerespected.
The answer to all of yourproblems is just more.
It's more success, it's morepower, it's more money, it's
(30:15):
more prestige, it's moreprivilege, and I think that's a
load of shit that we've given tomen, and I also think we don't
talk enough about how thatmessaging is impacting men.
I think that's a very diceyconversation that people are
afraid to have because no onewants to be the person who's
like oh, the poor men.
And also I feel fine with beinglike when we look at the data,
(30:37):
men are not doing well right now.
Men are five times lonelier infriendship than they were in the
1990s suicide, alcoholism, drugaddiction, anxiety, depression
and I think a lot of that comesfrom the message that we've
given to men, which is what Ijust said, that it's just like
(30:57):
it's never enough and there'salways going to be another
mountain to climb and alwaysgoing to be somebody else for
you to compete with, and so Ithink the next level of progress
is actually going to beunlocked when more men start
going okay, I'm, I am workingand I'm working hard and I am
working faithfully and towardsexcellence to this thing that
I've been called to out in theworkplace.
(31:19):
And you want to know what elsematters to me and what I
envision as a successful lifehaving a healthy relationship
with my partner and having kidsthat feel like I am emotionally,
physically, relationallypresent in their life, being a
community member where myneighbor, my fellow church
(31:40):
members, the parents at myschool would say oh, this place
is better and more connected andmore safe for everybody because
Jack is here and is a part ofit and really redefining what
success looks like.
I think there's so muchconversation about how women
have fallen prey to like well,you can't have it all, and I'm
like I think the world would bebetter if men were more
(32:02):
interested in having it all, youknow, and had like a broader
view of what success looked like.
And so we put so much likeemphasis on like mommy guilt.
Women have all this mommy guiltand it's like okay, we can have
a whole conversation about that, and I think we might do well
if some more men had a littledaddy guilt happening right,
like when's the daddy guilt?
Speaker 1 (32:22):
movement going to come Right.
There's the money shot, becauseI think that for so many
families right now, the missingelement is very much the fact
that the lie that's been told,right for men is as impactful as
the lies that have been toldfor women.
(32:43):
And at the core, it's what isyour value, what do you believe,
and have you assembled a lifethat allows you to live truly
and committed to those values?
Right and man?
I love that.
This one's going to be good forour guys because they're
important.
They're important to ourfamilies, they're important to
(33:03):
the next generation, and theminute we take them out of the
equation, the minute we we lose,we all lose, right.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
So, yeah, that's good .
When we do that, we're justwe're playing by the same rules
of the game that so many of usfor so long said were wrong and
oppressive and marginalizingwomen and were harmful, and
we're basically just playing bythe same rules, but we've
flipped the sides of the fieldand I'm just completely
uninterested in that game.
(33:31):
I just do not believe that it'szero sum.
I believe that true flourishing, anything that actually creates
a better world, has to bebetter for everybody.
All the players have to benefitfrom that, and so I think women
will benefit immensely whenthey don't feel like they're the
only ones that are carrying theweight of the family and of
(33:53):
children and of aging parents ontheir shoulders, and that's why
so many women feel so burnout,so resentful, so angry.
But I actually think that thatwill be an unlock to health and
to thriving for our brothers aswell as when they go.
Oh, you mean, my worth in theworld doesn't actually just come
from how much money I earn andwhat kind of car I drive and
(34:14):
what position I hold, because Iknow so many men who are really
silently suffering because thereis one definition of success
and they feel like they aren't apicture of that, and the
consequences of that are direfor them and then, by nature,
for their families and for thepeople that they depend on, and
so I'm wholly uninterested in anarrative that says it's time
(34:37):
for us to take it back, or nowto be the ones you know that are
in the position of power andinstead going.
I'm much more interested insomething that actually creates
flourishing for all.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Okay, I'm going to let you go after this one rapid
fire question.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, all right, here we go.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
So, when you are thinking about a great time,
what's your favorite thing to dofor fun?
Favorite thing to do for fun.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Okay, For me a great time would be having like five
of my best girlfriends over somegreat snacks, preferably savory
, and honestly like sitting inmy hot tub in my backyard.
I love hot tub time because Ilove feeling like everybody's
kind of like captive, you know,where people aren't like having
(35:20):
side conversations or coming inand out, it's just like a
handful of people that are kindof in one contained area and the
conversation that kind ofinvolves everybody.
Everybody has a voice because,again, those little side
conversations are happening andyou know you're in a hot tub so
things start to flow and storiesget shared.
That is my idea of a great time.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
That's a good one.
One more what's the craziestworkout phenomena right now that
you've engaged in at least onetime?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Oh well, I don't really work out.
So I now, I say that and I havedone this, Liz.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
that's what you're telling me, girlfriend.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I here's the thing I don't engage in normal workouts.
Probably the only workouts thatI've engaged in are things that
the average person would belike that's unhinged, and I'm
like those are the only things Iwould consider.
So the thing I've done mostrecently is something called
dance church and you like go tothis dance studio.
You don't stand like in a lineall looking at the instructor
(36:20):
and then looking at yourself ina mirror.
The instructor stands in themiddle of the studio, everybody
is in a circle around them, themusic is blaring, the lights are
low and it's not like achoreograph dance.
It's like she's doing kind of arepeated move, but it's like to
the beat and to the rhythm.
So then the entire group iskind of dancing in unison, ish,
(36:41):
and then the song changes, thebeat changes, so then the
instructor kind of changes andyou're just kind of like
circling around the room and soit's very not performative, like
it's not like.
Look at me, I'm doing all themoves right.
It feels just like kind of theshared.
We're all engaging in music andin this embodied experience,
but in a way that feels verylike, just like welcoming and
(37:03):
inclusive and not kind of likeyou got to do it this way to
look great or to be cool, and Ilove it.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Oh, my God.
Ok, that's a good tip, a greattip for everybody.
If you have not already done aGoogle of Liz Bohannon, you've
got to do it.
There's book, there's podcast,there's resources.
I think she even still does atwo to three day experience
where you can sit with her andstart to unpack your own small
(37:33):
dreaming, small opportunity,right and from the beginning.
So I'm super excited tocontinue to get to know you
through the journey and I justwish you the best.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
You're the coolest's, a special place and I'm just
grateful for the gifts that youare bringing to the world in
your own way.
(38:04):
So thanks for being you.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Oh, bless you, Thank you, bye.
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