November 26, 2024 • 37 mins
Get ready to unlock the world of Christian apologetics with our esteemed guest, Tim, as we explore its significance in defending the faith. We promise you'll gain insights into the origins of apologetics, tracing back to the Greek term "apologia," and how this form of reasoned defense is more about articulation than apology. We reflect on 1 Peter 3:15, urging Christians to present their beliefs with gentleness and respect, aiming to clear up common misconceptions surrounding the need for defending the gospel.
Throughout our conversation, we engage with the challenges that come with religious pluralism and exclusivity, particularly in an age where younger generations are more spiritual yet less religious. We tackle these evolving questions, encouraging thoughtful dialogue over quick social media snippets, and emphasize the importance of long-form discussions in truly understanding faith- and Bible-related moral inquiries. Discover how apologetics is not about "owning" opponents, but about creating meaningful connections that nurture belief and understanding.
Apologetics is portrayed as a spiritual discipline that not only fortifies personal faith but also plays a vital role in discipleship. By addressing objections with love and comprehension, believers can embody the teachings of Christ while demystifying intellectual and emotional barriers. For those seeking to bolster their confidence in their faith journey, we recommend timeless resources such as Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ" and C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity," which offer profound insights into engaging with and defending the Christian faith. Join us for this enlightening episode and transform your approach to apologetics as a pathway to deeper understanding and connection.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and
Theo podcast.
We are talking today about theimportance of apologetics for
Christians, and Tim, our expert,is going to be leading us in a
lively discussion on why this isimportant and why Christians
should care about this, becauseI think sometimes we just get so
(00:24):
caught up with not wanting toknow more or not knowing how to
defend our faith, and we'regoing to learn how to do it
today.
Tim, take us away.
Why is apologetics, or why arewe doing this episode today?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Well, so this episode is actually your idea.
So I'm curious to ask you whatwas the impetus behind this idea
?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
So let me ask you let me throw it back to you first,
yeah, yeah, no, I'm glad youasked because I was going to say
, you know, we've been talking alittle bit about our logo and
changing things up a bit justregarding that.
So obviously our topics arestill around areas that we are
able to speak on, areas that weare able to speak on, and I was
just looking at psych and theo.
I'm like you know what?
(01:08):
We haven't really given a goodintroduction I mean, we did it
probably in the first couple ofepisodes but a good introduction
as to why we call it psych andtheo.
Obviously, we're experts in ourfield and we talk about certain
issues within our field, but Ithought it would be good to just
talk about, okay, why ispsychology important for
Christians to understand whichwill be a later episode and then
why is theology, or apologeticsalso important?
Speaker 3 (01:30):
for.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Christians to understand, which ties into our
second theology.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
We'll have to do another episode later just on
theology itself, becauseapologetics is the practice or
discipline of defending thefaith.
So the word apologetics we getit from the Greek word apologia.
It's also that Greek word iswhere we get the word apology,
(01:56):
which in our English vernacularmeans to say you're sorry, to
express remorse or somethinglike that.
But in reality, what an anapology is like if I were to
give an apology for something,even though I'm saying sorry,
I'm giving a justification forsomething, I'm right, I'm giving
an explanation or something.
So, uh, the word apologia ingreek means a defense, and so
(02:22):
apologetics in the discipline inChristianity means to defend
the faith.
Yeah, and we get that from.
There's a famous verse.
If you've spent any time in theapologetics world, you'll know
this verse.
But 1 Peter 3.15 is where theyget this concept of defending
the faith, because a lot ofpeople think like, well, you
(02:45):
know, we just need to preach thegospel and, uh, win people to
christ and that's that's it.
We don't need to defend thefaith.
You know the cs lewis and Iforget where I think I think
it's in mere christianity, butI'm not sure exactly where he
said he gives this analogy ofthat.
Christ is a lion and you don'tneed to defend a lion, you just
(03:08):
need to let the lion out of thecage.
It'll defend itself.
And that sounds good.
And CS Lewis is one of theforemost apologists.
So it's kind of ironic comingfrom him, or it's ironic that
people would use that quote fromhim, even though he's one of
the foremost apologists of the20th century.
But, yeah, so people will thinklike, well, I don't need to
(03:32):
defend the faith because thegospel will defend itself, and I
guess in a sense that's true,but in another sense it's not
true.
So we are called to give ananswer, to defend the faith in
the Gospel of Jude.
I won't read this, but Judetells believers to contend for
(03:53):
the faith that was once for alldelivered to the saints.
And he says that within thecontext of contending for the
faith amongst false teachers, ofthe faith amongst false
teachers.
So there's an aspect toapologetics that's defending the
pure gospel, the true gospel,from counterfeits.
But then there's also we seeexamples of this all through
(04:15):
scripture of the disciples orthe apostles or the prophets
contending with unbelievers insome way, either in the Old
Testament, that's true prophetsof God contending with false
prophets, or in the NewTestament, that's the disciples
or the Apostle Paul going intothe synagogue and reasoning with
(04:37):
the Jews on a daily basis invarious cities.
So we see examples of that allthrough Scripture.
But let me read you this passageof scripture that this comes
from.
I'm going to read 1 Peter 3,verses 13 through 18, so that
you can get the whole contexthere suffering and enduring
(05:02):
suffering while you're trying todo good, okay, so he says this
now who is there to harm you ifyou are zealous for what is good
?
So he's telling believers,similar to what Paul says in
Romans, chapter 12, don't repayevil with evil.
Be good citizens who obey thegovernment, who are well well
(05:23):
behaved in society and conductyourselves well, so that way,
when someone brings a chargeagainst you, they are put to
shame.
So that's what he says here.
Says now, who is there to harmyou if you are zealous for what
is good?
But even if you should sufferfor righteousness sake, you will
be blessed.
(05:43):
And then he says have no fearof them.
That is, the people who troubleyou.
Nor be troubled, but in yourhearts, honor christ the lord as
holy always.
And here's, here's the famousverse, verse 15 always be
prepared to make a defense toanyone who asks for a reason,
(06:03):
for the hope that is in you.
Yet do it with gentleness andrespect, having a good
conscience, so that when you areslandered, those who revile you
, your good behavior in Christmay be put to shame.
For it is better to suffer fordoing good, if that be God's
will, than for doing evil thatbe god's will than for doing
(06:29):
evil.
Okay, so, um, peter is tellingthe believers amidst, amidst
people slandering you and doingall kinds of evil things against
you, for doing good.
Conduct yourself, um, withrighteousness, conduct yourself
with, uh, good behavior, and beready when you are questioned,
(06:51):
questioned by the romanauthorities in this context, be
ready to give a defense of thehope that lies within you.
So be ready to explain yourfaith, give reasons for your
faith.
So that way, um it, you know it.
Basically, you present thefaith as a reasonable thing.
Yeah, to unbelievers.
That's, that's what he's sayingthere.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
So that's where the, the foundation of the practice
of apologetics comes, comes fromyeah, it sounded like as you
were sharing that, that it'skind of like you got to walk the
walk and talk the talk, type ofthing.
Would it be fair to say that?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
yeah, but it's.
It's more than just having agood testimony right, right.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
So yeah, you have to defend it verbally, explaining
to someone.
But also that's supported byhow the person is living,
because, remember, yeah, yeah,yeah, they're connected yeah,
that I remember.
There's a saying that a lot ofpeople started kind of using as
well as that um, you know well,people will come to know christ
through my behavior, which isbasically what you, you're
saying, right, they'll come toknow Christ through my behavior,
(07:47):
I don't need to say anything.
And then there's the other side,where they just say, well, you
know Jesus loves you and theygive the gospel within their
lives are completely opposite towhat Scripture teaches, yeah
that first thing you mentionedcomes from well, it's attributed
to St Francis of Assisi's andit says preach the gospel at all
times and, when necessary, usewords.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Now there's debate over whether Francis of.
Assisi ever actually said that.
But even if he did, it's wrong.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
You can't preach the gospel without using words.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
And in this context, as I was saying, it's more than
just having a good testimony.
It is providing a, a reasoneddefense of your faith in public.
But, as you said, it's tied inwith a good testimony.
If you don't have a goodtestimony, it doesn't matter how
good of a debater you are, likepeople ain't gonna ain't gonna
(08:41):
want to listen to what you haveto say.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Or they may believe that what they're actually doing
is living the Christian life.
And I only say it because it'sfresh on my mind.
This was maybe a week and ahalf ago.
There was a UFC fighter,dominant champion, I mean he's
the John Jones, John Jones, youknow John.
So greatest of all time, and hegets up there and he kind of
preaches the gospel.
(09:04):
He kind of says you know, jesusloves you.
He didn't give the repentingpart.
But he says that and then hegoes off and parties right, and
this is, I mean, he's verycommon in doing that.
So speaks back to that pointthat people can articulate it
well, but if their life is notsupporting that, there may be
people who believe oh, if that'swhat a Christian is, then I can
(09:25):
be a Christian too.
It's a belief in God,essentially.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, I didn't want to jump on John Jones.
I saw him say that but I don'tknow like if he had changed his
life or not.
I know he used to be part of,maybe he still is, I don't know,
but I saw that and.
I saw a bunch of Christianscommenting on it Like oh, oh,
how great it was for, like youknow, this celebrity to give us
a shout out.
Basically, yeah, and it wasjust more of like christians
(09:49):
wanting to, wanting so bad to be.
You know, have a, have acelebrity, yeah, and I just
think it's premature to alwaysdo that.
But I do um, but I will say thisapologetics is more.
It's more than just witnessing.
It's more than just saying I'ma christian and you guys should
be christians too.
It's it's more than justwitnessing.
It's more than just saying I'ma Christian and you guys should
be Christians too.
It's more than that.
(10:09):
Apologetics is, specifically inthe modern context, is
defending the faith, eitherdefending it from outside
attacks, criticisms and thingslike that or internal heresies
from false teachers.
That we would call that, uh,polemics, uh you know, it's a
subset of apologetics.
Um, so it.
Apologetics is is specificallygeared toward defending the
(10:33):
faith from attacks, whetherinternal or external internal or
external.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, yeah, so and it's.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, an internal would be like.
You know, something likeMormonism is a heresy that
sprang out of Christianity, orJehovah's Witnesses, or a
classic heresy is like Arianismor Modalism or something like
that.
Yeah, Okay.
Or other cults that wouldspring about.
(11:02):
That would be like an internalattack.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah, okay, or other cults that would spring about.
That would be like an internalattack.
Yeah, so how do we asChristians kind of prepare
ourselves in a way to be able todefend the faith, because we're
not going to know everythingabout all of these different
spaces but I mean there's a lotof these that are happening in
churches and we've talked aboutthis before is that a lot of
Christians are being led awayfrom their faith because they
(11:25):
start believing these otherthings.
Like you mentioned, modalism.
Like maybe a lot of people whoare listening don't even know
what modalism is, so they don'tknow these terms or phrases.
So, yeah, how do we preparepeople, or how do you help
people understand?
Here's the basics ofapologetics.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Well, so I think In this day and age, the good place
to start would be YouTube orsome sort of platform where
there's lots of Christianapologists out there that can
have lots of good resources thatcan help and we can get into
some of those at the end of theepisode.
You know, if you're not a, ifyou're not a, this isn't like
(12:06):
your discipline or you're nottrained in that, like a lot of
people listening to this arefull-time.
They're full-time professionalsin other spheres, so they're
not going to have all thetraining that, like, a
professional theologian would.
However, there's lots of goodbooks you can get that can kind
of show you the ropes and thebasics.
I don't think anyone should gointo the realm of apologetics
(12:30):
because they like to argue.
When someone says, oh, I love toargue, I think that person is
immature or just reallyunhealthy in some way.
So you don't go intoapologetics because you like to
argue or you like to debate.
Debating is a part ofapologetics, but it's one of
those things that there'shealthy and unhealthy forms of
(12:52):
debating.
And a lot of people think well,if I'm arguing with someone,
I'm like a debater or somethingRight?
No you're just arguing withsomeone.
So don't go into apologeticsbecause you like to win
arguments and you want to ownthe heretics or something.
Don't do that to own theheretics or something.
(13:17):
Don't do that.
But go into apologetics becausemaybe you're getting questioned
at work by your atheist friend,or maybe you came across
something online that haschallenged your faith and you
don't have an answer for it.
Well, rest assured and I'vesaid this in a previous episode
don't panic.
Rest assured that someone alongthe line in the long history of
Christianity has probablythought about and dealt with
(13:40):
that challenge you justencountered.
So go and seek out an answerfrom someone who's maybe thought
about it a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, yeah, that was going to be one of the questions
that I was going to ask about.
What do you think Christiansget wrong about apologetics?
And I think one of them is thatis thinking that it's just
going into argue your point, youknow, and it's much more than
that.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
And unfortunately, in this day and age, with TikTok
and Instagram and all the reelsthat people make, I see this a
lot, even in the apologeticspace, where people are
confusing a two minute or even a30 second reel of, like a
gotcha moment.
It's like, that's like, that'sa debate, and I would just
(14:22):
caution our audience that you'renot going to arrive at truth by
um, doing like, quote, unquote,doing research that way,
watching these two minute clipson YouTube or whatever, where
someone gets a zinger in onsomeone else.
All those videos are clippedand edited to make whoever
(14:45):
produced it look a certain way.
I've seen this with there.
There's some muslim apologistson youtube and they have taken
clips from some christian,well-known christian apologists
that are like debating in apublic square and they make
their own reels out of it.
Like, watch, how you know this.
Muslim questions, uh, thedoctrine of, like, the doctrine
(15:08):
of the trinity, you know,totally, totally backs him into
a corner.
It's like.
And then I watch it.
I'm like.
I'm like, no, he, no, youdidn't like.
I know exactly, I know exactlywhat you're doing here in this
video.
I know exactly what you editedout or what you did not allow to
make it into this video because, if that apology, I'm just
thinking of a particular one inparticular, where this apologist
(15:28):
named cliff nettle- yeah, cliffa lot of people know him.
This muslim apologist had put upthis video of like basically,
these two college, these twomuslim college kids, like,
quote-unquote, owning cliff onits on a subject, and I watched
the video.
I'm like, no, I I know exactlywhat.
What cliff probably, or theangle he probably took when they
(15:49):
challenged him with this andthey the video has clearly
edited out his responses youknow, so it's all that to say.
Don't do research that way.
I would say go watch long formdebates like hour and a half,
two hour, three hour videos.
They're there on youtube, umyou can find them, um of like
(16:11):
scholars debating these issues,because there you'll get the
meat and potatoes of whatthey're talking about and it's
point for point back and forthin a controlled environment to
where it's not like someone'snot trying to throw zingers at
the other person.
They're trying to have a veryrational reason to debate about
different subjects yeah yeah andthe shit.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
And I think one of the themes that I've noticed
when people are doingapologetics is that there's
always like top three, top fivequestions that always come up.
Yeah, and I was going to askyou about that, like what are
some of the ones that you'veheard when it comes to
apologetics that people eitherask the most about or they're
most confused about?
Like what's something commonthat you hear?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
I think it changes over time.
This generation seems to bereally focused on moral problems
from the Bible.
Like is God, this angry,bloodthirsty, genocidal maniac
in the Old Testament?
Like what do you do with that?
Like the differences betweenOld and New testament, how god
(17:13):
is presented, um, so that's,that's a challenge that, like, a
prior generation didn't so muchcare about, but this one does.
Um, you know, some classicthings would be like the reasons
for the existence of god doeshe exist or not?
I would say that thisgeneration, though, is they're
less atheistic, they're lessnaturalistic, so those questions
(17:34):
have kind of like it seems tome that those questions have
aren't as prominent in thespotlight now of the arguments
for the existence of god.
It seems that a lot, of, a lotof younger people don't have a
problem believing in a higherpower or some sort of divine
being or plural being yeah yeah,um.
(17:57):
However, uh, one apologeticquestion that's.
That's pretty um universal now,and I no pun intended is is the
problem of religious pluralism,or religious exclusivity maybe
is another way to put it.
And, and what I mean by that isChristianity would be defined
as an exclusivistic religion andthat its claims to the truth
(18:22):
exclude other religions fromhaving the truth.
So Christianity says Jesus isthe way, the truth and the life
and no man comes to the Fatherbut by him.
So Jesus is the way back to Godand God is a triune being as
revealed in the Bible.
And so Christianity makes thatclaim and says there is no
salvation outside of JesusChrist.
(18:43):
He is the way back to God, heis the way of salvation.
Well, that by its very natureexcludes other religious claims.
So Christianity is anexclusivistic religion in that
sense.
It's not exclusive in that somepeople get to join and others
don't.
Don't shoot me, calvinists.
I'm just saying it's not a clubwhere you need a special ticket
(19:05):
to get in.
God holds his hand out toeveryone and offers the way of
salvation to all people.
But salvation is exclusivelythrough Jesus Christ.
It's not through Muhammad, it'snot through Buddha, it's not
through Shiva or Vishnu orGanesha, any of the Hindu gods.
(19:28):
It's not through any of that.
It's through Jesus Christ, thehindu gods.
It's not through any of that.
Through jesus christ, yeah, butin this day and age, with young
people, they see all theseother religions.
Um, they all claim to have someknowledge and some religious
experiences and they again.
Another moral problem is whywould, um, why would?
(19:49):
Uh?
What happens to people who'venever heard the gospel Like, why
would God send them to hell?
In the Christian religion, thatseems to be what happens.
So that again, that's anothermoral problem that they bring up
.
It's not a belief about.
Is there something supernatural?
But why would God do it thatway?
It seems unjust.
Yeah.
So there's a lot of moralquestions that come up with this
generation?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It definitely does, and it's interesting too,
because I think the increase forthis younger generation has
been in spirituality, but it'skind of been a little bit of
everything.
So it's not necessarily thatthey become more spiritual but
less religious, right?
So the idea of spirituality isappealing to them, the idea of a
(20:30):
higher power and all thesedifferent things, different
religions but their religiosity,which is their behaviors going
to church, attending communities, having home groups, all of
that has declined.
So it's very interesting to seethe interest in spiritual
things, but avoiding the verything that makes it distinct
from the other religions, andseeking community.
(20:53):
Everyone says I'm a Christianand there's a lot of meaning to
that, and I think what they'resaying is either I believe in
God or I have been awakened tothis new age spirituality.
And that was a big thing, Imean.
I've interviewed a couple ofpeople who used to be in the new
um spiritual world, uh, per seand um, they've come out of it.
(21:16):
So again, just a lot ofinteresting journeys that people
have had when seeking god yeah,I mean the, this generation.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
The term is remixed religion that they're.
They're remixing old forms ofreligion to make essentially new
religions.
They're not really that new,but they're youing old forms of
religion to make essentially newreligions.
They're not really that new,but they're new forms of it.
It's like you go to arestaurant and they use the same
five ingredients for every dish.
It's like that kind ofrestaurant.
It sounds like a spirituality.
(21:48):
Yeah, yeah, like a spirituality,yeah, yeah.
So, um, yeah, they're spiritualbut they don't want to adhere
to, uh, maybe a historic faithlike historic christianity or
historic some church they rejecttraditionalism, yeah yeah yeah
but it's not.
You know that even that's kindof changing, because some people
(22:08):
are.
They see all the craziness inour culture and they are
actually choosing to come backto a historic, traditional faith
in some sense.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Well, you've talked about the sex differences, even
within that, yeah it is mostlymen who are coming back.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
A lot of women are shifting toward feminism, and
then feminism being a gateway tonew age spirituality, animism,
witchcraft and other things likethat.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
So, as we're talking about this aspect of apologetics
, we talked a little bit aboutkind of what Christians may get
wrong.
So where do we want to pointpeople to as they kind of
prepare for defending theirfaith, Because not everyone has
the same.
Maybe a lot of people feel likeI'm not the right person to
defend the faith because I can'tarticulate it well or they just
(23:02):
don't feel capable of doingthat.
We know that we need to preachthe gospel.
That's a command that Jesus hasgiven to all of us.
We need to preach the gospel,but I think there's some people
who are afraid of speaking upand defending the faith because
they don't know enough or feellike that should be someone
else's job.
What would you say to them, Iguess, who are in that space of?
(23:23):
I know I'm preaching the gospel, but I don't know if I could
take on these bigger issues.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Well, I would say you don't have to take on the big
issues.
Apologetics can be a form ofspiritual discipline for you
that's good yeah, you know a lotof christians, I think and we
all do this to some extent with,with, with other things in our
lives where we encountersomething that scares us and
we're kind of afraid to.
We're afraid of the what theanswer is.
(23:50):
It could be like um you, somepeople, they have something
medically wrong with them, butthey're afraid to go to the
doctor and actually find outwhat it is Because they're
afraid of the bad news.
You know what I'm saying.
It could be like someone hasencountered something online or
at work that has challengedtheir faith and, rather than
(24:10):
going and seeking out the answer, they're not, they're just
stagnant and they're cause,they're afraid that maybe there
isn't an answer out there, and Iwould challenge them that
apologetics can be a form ofstrengthening your own faith,
where you might be great atevangelism and terrible at like
debating point for point andbeing like a Ben Shapiro, you
(24:32):
know like you don't have to dothat, but having the requisite
knowledge, like operating inyour mind where you've learned a
little bit about history,you've learned a little bit
about philosophy, you've learneda little bit about the key
tenets and arguments forChristianity, and that's just
(24:53):
there in your mind and as you'rewitnessing to people, maybe a
question that they've had comesup and maybe you've dealt with
that personally in your life.
So I would just say you don'thave to study apologetics to go
out and be some debater oncollege campuses.
It actually can help youpersonally in your own spiritual
(25:15):
walk if you're wrestling withdoubts, and then it can help you
just in conversation withpeople.
I mean, I've had that many,many times where I don't like
the formal debates.
I don't like entering into somesort of formal debate with
people, but just in conversingwith people there's a lot.
Let me just say this theaverage Christian doesn't really
(25:38):
know a lot of these apologeticissues, how to work through them
, how to talk through them.
If the average Christiandoesn't know that there are
answers for their faith.
How much less do unbelieversknow?
that there are answers for theChristian faith, right, okay?
So just take heart, christian,that once you start studying
these things, it might becomevery fascinating for you and it
(26:01):
might actually be a greatencouragement, like you might
actually become encouraged andemboldened spiritually, so that
way you actually have moreconfidence when you evangelize
people.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah, no, I love that , I love that.
Uh, I thought, yeah, you said Isaw a book that you brought in.
I'm like yeah, I think I havethat book yeah it's the
encyclopedia of apologetics.
Yeah, I have a few.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
I have a bunch of resources here, but um, so I'll
just.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
I was going to walk through them.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
The first one here is is one that's been around
liberty circles for a long, longtime.
Um, it's called the popularencyclopedia of apologetics.
Um and uh, it's, it's basicallya.
It's a very popular level as,again, as the title says, it's a
popular level anthology ofdifferent apologetic topics.
(26:48):
If you crack open the table ofcontents, it has uh, it has
dozens and dozens and dozens oftopics.
I mean probably probably ahundred different topics that it
gives short answers to that aremaybe a page or two long it
just gives you a nice succinctanswer now.
It's not going to be robust, uh,but it's going to get you kind
(27:11):
of going.
It's going to whet yourappetite, give you some quick
answers.
Another one is and I'm suremany people, have heard of this.
It's called the Case for Christand it's by Lee Strobel.
It's a good book on theresurrection and the format of
this book is Lee Strobel goesaround and interviews different
(27:32):
experts on the topic and hebasically I think it's kind of a
biopic on how he came to Christ, but it's a really famous book.
Another one is very similar tothat.
I think he's actuallyinterviewed in the Case for
Christ.
This is by Gary Habermas andMichael Lacona.
(27:52):
This is called the Case for theResurrection of Jesus.
Now, this is a heavy hittingbook, just on that topic
specifically.
And again, it's a reallyaccessible book.
It's not like you don't have toknow Greekreek and hebrew you
know to to read it.
It's a really a good book.
Uh, another one, last one, oractually two, I get two here.
(28:14):
Where'd it go?
It dropped anyway, it's oh,here it is.
It's a mere christianity is forsitting right under my arm, mere
christianity by cs lewis.
A lot of people know of thisbook.
A lot of people have read thisbook.
Um, but it's a great classicwork that just CS Lewis boils
down what are the mere basictenets of Christianity.
(28:35):
What do we need to be concernedabout?
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Do all of these authors have similar backgrounds
?
I mean, you mentioned doubtingone's faith and wrestling with
those big questions, and I knowwe see that with CS Lewis and I
know that's happened with LeeStrobel.
Do you see any themes in theirbackgrounds that made them write
these books?
Well, Lee.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Strobel, was an atheist and then he became a
Christian.
Through that process, cs Lewis,I guess, was raised Anglican
and then he was an atheist for along time and then he
eventually came to Christ.
I don't know if he wrestledwith doubts.
I'm not a CS Lewis biographerso I couldn't tell you the arc
(29:22):
of his story.
Gary Habermas was a Christianfor a long time.
He's a Christian most of hislife but, um, he wrestled with a
lot of doubts, um and uh,emotional and intellectual
doubts and um.
So that's what kind of led himinto this career of defending
the, the resurrection, um, andmichael lacona I don't know much
(29:45):
about uh, personally I don'tknow how long he's been a
Christian and whatnot.
The popular encyclopedia it'sedited by Ed Hindson and Ergen
Kanner, but all the differentchapters are by just tons of
different people.
So, there's lots of differentChristians there.
There's one more book.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
If you really want to dive in.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
This is a sledgehammer book.
This is called PhilosophicalFoundations for a Christian
Worldview.
Now, the title should tell yousomething that this is about
philosophical apologetics.
So this is like the heavy kindof mental work.
And this is written by JP More,william lane, craig.
I love this.
I love this book because it's a.
(30:30):
It's a great resource.
Um, it's got, it's a commonanthology book.
It's got lots of differenttopics.
Almost think of it like it'slike a systematic theology.
But really or for apologetics.
It's like a that's cool, yeah,big, hip, thick book like that.
Another one just off the top ofmy head would be scaling the
secular city by jp moreland.
(30:51):
Um, that's a really great book.
There's like a basicapologetics book yeah yeah, yeah
, always some good resourcesthere.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, yeah, we should be getting some royalties on
the.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Yeah, yeah yeah, some , some other like good websites
would be William Lane Craig'sReasonable Faith website.
That's a great one to go out to.
I've mentioned this one before.
Stand to Reason.
That's Greg Kugel's website.
Another one it's sort of acreation website.
(31:25):
It's called Reasons to Believe.
It's sort of a creation website.
It's called Reasons to Believeand they're in Old Earth.
They take the Old Earthposition, but they have some
great resources, both in Genesisand in other areas of
apologetics.
That's why I recommend them.
What's one more Wellgotquestionsorg.
(31:50):
That's a good one for just Biblequestions, and they're going to
have stuff for apologeticsthere as well.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, I like that.
I think one part that we'vetouched on here a lot is kind of
how maybe your story oranyone's story can kind of lead
them into I should know a littlebit more about my faith.
Or maybe you've encountered aquestion more often with either
your friends or family members.
Family member is a big onealways and there's questions.
(32:20):
So look for themes.
I think what I would recommendlook for themes in your life of
people, of just questions thatthey have, because that's the
population that you're workingwith.
So, for me, with collegestudents, of people of just
questions that they have,because that's the population
that you're working with.
So, for me, with um collegestudents, one of the questions
that they had in the last coupleof years was the whole
deconstruction thing.
Yeah, right, that became a hugeissue and it was almost
stigmatized.
Like the fact that you havequestions is not the problem is,
(32:41):
what do you do with thosequestions afterwards?
Right, and so some decide toleave their faith, others, it
just made it stronger so I thinkthis aspect of apologetics is
key yeah, and and for anyonelistening, I mean, uh, the
defending one's faith.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
It can come from different angles.
Like you could be inconversation and someone's like,
what about evolution?
Well, there you go, right,there's a topic of apologetics.
Or someone says, well, yourtruth is your truth and my truth
is my truth.
Well, that's another one,that's relativism, so you got to
know how to deal with that one.
Um, it could be like again, the, the god calls for genocide in
the old testament.
(33:14):
Like so people just throw outthings all the time all these
kind of objections.
These are all apologetic innature.
Yeah, of having to know how toanswer that with people and
don't feel like you, you have tohave all the answers.
Yeah, some of the mostbeautiful words in the english
language that's the most freeingis say I don't know.
Yeah, and just I've had to saythat sometimes I'll be like,
(33:37):
well, you know, that'sinteresting, I'll have to go,
I'll go look that up.
I'm not familiar with that, butI'll go look that up yeah but I
usually well, this is, I'mtrained on these things, so
usually'll say but here's what Iwould probably say, you know,
and I would give him some sortof answer you know, but yeah,
you gotta give him something.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, yeah, that's good, that's good man.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
But it's okay.
It's okay to not have theanswer or it's okay to have
multiple answers.
Yeah.
So a lot of times peopleChristians think like I've got
to have the answer for aspecific question and you
actually don't, because if theperson who is sorry, I'm taking
over here but the person who'sobjecting they're giving an
(34:16):
objection to Christianity.
Christianity is not truebecause of X, y and Z, like
Christianity is not true becauseof evolution, or Christianity
is not true because Jesus didn'trise from the dead, or
something like that.
Okay, you could have multipleanswers for them.
Like with the evolutionquestion.
All you have to do is show themthat Christianity is.
(34:36):
There's multiple ways of makingChristianity compatible with,
or let me rephrase that there'smultiple explanations that you
could offer that are compatiblewith Christianity.
So one could be the young earthposition, but one could be an
(34:57):
old earth position as well.
That's perfectly compatiblewith Christianity.
Some of the young earthers aregoing to get all twisted on that
one.
But again, the objector is theone who needs to.
You know, prove that this topic, this, whatever this objection
is, is the thing that defeatschristianity.
(35:18):
So all you got to do is offerexplanations that defeat the
defeater yeah, if that makessense.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah, no, that does.
That does.
And to your point earlier, Ithink it just stuck with me that
watching these apologists livethat out, meaning when they're
debating other people, there'ssomething special about that
because you see it not just atthe intellectual level but also
a relational level.
There's a relational piece tobeing an apologetic.
(35:45):
Is that how you would say todefending the faith because
you're relating to the people?
How you would say to defendingthe faith because you're
relating to the people, soyou're demonstrating to them the
love of Christ and also you'reeducating them on the process,
and it does require both.
So just to counter that ideathat we mentioned earlier, that
a lot of people say in cultureis that only one partisan is
either just live out your faithor just say something or talk
about your faith and that'senough.
(36:06):
They both need to go hand inhand.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Yeah, I mean doing apologetics is a part of
discipleship.
So if you think of it that way,you know Jesus is go out and
make disciples, teaching them toabsorb all things that I've
commanded you.
The apologetics aspect of thatis not just dunking on someone
in an argument like it.
Think of it as education, thinkof it as like okay, this person
(36:32):
has these objections, uh, tochristianity.
Maybe behind those objectionsthere's emotional things.
Um, that could be the case too.
Um, so you got to usediscernment.
But just know, like you'reoffering, you're offering
solution.
You're offering an answer and asolution for them.
You're offering a way for themto understand how God could be
(36:54):
working in their life, howChristianity could be true.
You don't have to get upsetover it.
No, definitely not.
You don't have to get afraid orinsecure or defensive over it.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Love that.
That's good Tim.
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and
Theo podcast.
We are talking today about theimportance of apologetics for
Christians, and Tim, our expert,is going to be leading us in a
lively discussion on why this isimportant and why Christians
should care about this, becauseI think sometimes we just get so
(00:24):
caught up with not wanting toknow more or not knowing how to
defend our faith, and we'regoing to learn how to do it
today.
Tim, take us away.
Why is apologetics, or why arewe doing this episode today?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Well, so this episode is actually your idea.
So I'm curious to ask you whatwas the impetus behind this idea
?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
So let me ask you let me throw it back to you first,
yeah, yeah, no, I'm glad youasked because I was going to say
, you know, we've been talking alittle bit about our logo and
changing things up a bit justregarding that.
So obviously our topics arestill around areas that we are
able to speak on, areas that weare able to speak on, and I was
just looking at psych and theo.
I'm like you know what?
(01:08):
We haven't really given a goodintroduction I mean, we did it
probably in the first couple ofepisodes but a good introduction
as to why we call it psych andtheo.
Obviously, we're experts in ourfield and we talk about certain
issues within our field, but Ithought it would be good to just
talk about, okay, why ispsychology important for
Christians to understand whichwill be a later episode and then
why is theology, or apologeticsalso important?
Speaker 3 (01:30):
for.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Christians to understand, which ties into our
second theology.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
We'll have to do another episode later just on
theology itself, becauseapologetics is the practice or
discipline of defending thefaith.
So the word apologetics we getit from the Greek word apologia.
It's also that Greek word iswhere we get the word apology,
(01:56):
which in our English vernacularmeans to say you're sorry, to
express remorse or somethinglike that.
But in reality, what an anapology is like if I were to
give an apology for something,even though I'm saying sorry,
I'm giving a justification forsomething, I'm right, I'm giving
an explanation or something.
So, uh, the word apologia ingreek means a defense, and so
(02:22):
apologetics in the discipline inChristianity means to defend
the faith.
Yeah, and we get that from.
There's a famous verse.
If you've spent any time in theapologetics world, you'll know
this verse.
But 1 Peter 3.15 is where theyget this concept of defending
the faith, because a lot ofpeople think like, well, you
(02:45):
know, we just need to preach thegospel and, uh, win people to
christ and that's that's it.
We don't need to defend thefaith.
You know the cs lewis and Iforget where I think I think
it's in mere christianity, butI'm not sure exactly where he
said he gives this analogy ofthat.
Christ is a lion and you don'tneed to defend a lion, you just
(03:08):
need to let the lion out of thecage.
It'll defend itself.
And that sounds good.
And CS Lewis is one of theforemost apologists.
So it's kind of ironic comingfrom him, or it's ironic that
people would use that quote fromhim, even though he's one of
the foremost apologists of the20th century.
But, yeah, so people will thinklike, well, I don't need to
(03:32):
defend the faith because thegospel will defend itself, and I
guess in a sense that's true,but in another sense it's not
true.
So we are called to give ananswer, to defend the faith in
the Gospel of Jude.
I won't read this, but Judetells believers to contend for
(03:53):
the faith that was once for alldelivered to the saints.
And he says that within thecontext of contending for the
faith amongst false teachers, ofthe faith amongst false
teachers.
So there's an aspect toapologetics that's defending the
pure gospel, the true gospel,from counterfeits.
But then there's also we seeexamples of this all through
(04:15):
scripture of the disciples orthe apostles or the prophets
contending with unbelievers insome way, either in the Old
Testament, that's true prophetsof God contending with false
prophets, or in the NewTestament, that's the disciples
or the Apostle Paul going intothe synagogue and reasoning with
(04:37):
the Jews on a daily basis invarious cities.
So we see examples of that allthrough Scripture.
But let me read you this passageof scripture that this comes
from.
I'm going to read 1 Peter 3,verses 13 through 18, so that
you can get the whole contexthere suffering and enduring
(05:02):
suffering while you're trying todo good, okay, so he says this
now who is there to harm you ifyou are zealous for what is good
?
So he's telling believers,similar to what Paul says in
Romans, chapter 12, don't repayevil with evil.
Be good citizens who obey thegovernment, who are well well
(05:23):
behaved in society and conductyourselves well, so that way,
when someone brings a chargeagainst you, they are put to
shame.
So that's what he says here.
Says now, who is there to harmyou if you are zealous for what
is good?
But even if you should sufferfor righteousness sake, you will
be blessed.
(05:43):
And then he says have no fearof them.
That is, the people who troubleyou.
Nor be troubled, but in yourhearts, honor christ the lord as
holy always.
And here's, here's the famousverse, verse 15 always be
prepared to make a defense toanyone who asks for a reason,
(06:03):
for the hope that is in you.
Yet do it with gentleness andrespect, having a good
conscience, so that when you areslandered, those who revile you
, your good behavior in Christmay be put to shame.
For it is better to suffer fordoing good, if that be God's
will, than for doing evil thatbe god's will than for doing
(06:29):
evil.
Okay, so, um, peter is tellingthe believers amidst, amidst
people slandering you and doingall kinds of evil things against
you, for doing good.
Conduct yourself, um, withrighteousness, conduct yourself
with, uh, good behavior, and beready when you are questioned,
(06:51):
questioned by the romanauthorities in this context, be
ready to give a defense of thehope that lies within you.
So be ready to explain yourfaith, give reasons for your
faith.
So that way, um it, you know it.
Basically, you present thefaith as a reasonable thing.
Yeah, to unbelievers.
That's, that's what he's sayingthere.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
So that's where the, the foundation of the practice
of apologetics comes, comes fromyeah, it sounded like as you
were sharing that, that it'skind of like you got to walk the
walk and talk the talk, type ofthing.
Would it be fair to say that?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
yeah, but it's.
It's more than just having agood testimony right, right.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
So yeah, you have to defend it verbally, explaining
to someone.
But also that's supported byhow the person is living,
because, remember, yeah, yeah,yeah, they're connected yeah,
that I remember.
There's a saying that a lot ofpeople started kind of using as
well as that um, you know well,people will come to know christ
through my behavior, which isbasically what you, you're
saying, right, they'll come toknow Christ through my behavior,
(07:47):
I don't need to say anything.
And then there's the other side,where they just say, well, you
know Jesus loves you and theygive the gospel within their
lives are completely opposite towhat Scripture teaches, yeah
that first thing you mentionedcomes from well, it's attributed
to St Francis of Assisi's andit says preach the gospel at all
times and, when necessary, usewords.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Now there's debate over whether Francis of.
Assisi ever actually said that.
But even if he did, it's wrong.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
You can't preach the gospel without using words.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
And in this context, as I was saying, it's more than
just having a good testimony.
It is providing a, a reasoneddefense of your faith in public.
But, as you said, it's tied inwith a good testimony.
If you don't have a goodtestimony, it doesn't matter how
good of a debater you are, likepeople ain't gonna ain't gonna
(08:41):
want to listen to what you haveto say.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Or they may believe that what they're actually doing
is living the Christian life.
And I only say it because it'sfresh on my mind.
This was maybe a week and ahalf ago.
There was a UFC fighter,dominant champion, I mean he's
the John Jones, John Jones, youknow John.
So greatest of all time, and hegets up there and he kind of
preaches the gospel.
(09:04):
He kind of says you know, jesusloves you.
He didn't give the repentingpart.
But he says that and then hegoes off and parties right, and
this is, I mean, he's verycommon in doing that.
So speaks back to that pointthat people can articulate it
well, but if their life is notsupporting that, there may be
people who believe oh, if that'swhat a Christian is, then I can
(09:25):
be a Christian too.
It's a belief in God,essentially.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, I didn't want to jump on John Jones.
I saw him say that but I don'tknow like if he had changed his
life or not.
I know he used to be part of,maybe he still is, I don't know,
but I saw that and.
I saw a bunch of Christianscommenting on it Like oh, oh,
how great it was for, like youknow, this celebrity to give us
a shout out.
Basically, yeah, and it wasjust more of like christians
(09:49):
wanting to, wanting so bad to be.
You know, have a, have acelebrity, yeah, and I just
think it's premature to alwaysdo that.
But I do um, but I will say thisapologetics is more.
It's more than just witnessing.
It's more than just saying I'ma christian and you guys should
be christians too.
It's it's more than justwitnessing.
It's more than just saying I'ma Christian and you guys should
be Christians too.
It's more than that.
(10:09):
Apologetics is, specifically inthe modern context, is
defending the faith, eitherdefending it from outside
attacks, criticisms and thingslike that or internal heresies
from false teachers.
That we would call that, uh,polemics, uh you know, it's a
subset of apologetics.
Um, so it.
Apologetics is is specificallygeared toward defending the
(10:33):
faith from attacks, whetherinternal or external internal or
external.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, yeah, so and it's.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, an internal would be like.
You know, something likeMormonism is a heresy that
sprang out of Christianity, orJehovah's Witnesses, or a
classic heresy is like Arianismor Modalism or something like
that.
Yeah, Okay.
Or other cults that wouldspring about.
(11:02):
That would be like an internalattack.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah, okay, or other cults that would spring about.
That would be like an internalattack.
Yeah, so how do we asChristians kind of prepare
ourselves in a way to be able todefend the faith, because we're
not going to know everythingabout all of these different
spaces but I mean there's a lotof these that are happening in
churches and we've talked aboutthis before is that a lot of
Christians are being led awayfrom their faith because they
(11:25):
start believing these otherthings.
Like you mentioned, modalism.
Like maybe a lot of people whoare listening don't even know
what modalism is, so they don'tknow these terms or phrases.
So, yeah, how do we preparepeople, or how do you help
people understand?
Here's the basics ofapologetics.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Well, so I think In this day and age, the good place
to start would be YouTube orsome sort of platform where
there's lots of Christianapologists out there that can
have lots of good resources thatcan help and we can get into
some of those at the end of theepisode.
You know, if you're not a, ifyou're not a, this isn't like
(12:06):
your discipline or you're nottrained in that, like a lot of
people listening to this arefull-time.
They're full-time professionalsin other spheres, so they're
not going to have all thetraining that, like, a
professional theologian would.
However, there's lots of goodbooks you can get that can kind
of show you the ropes and thebasics.
I don't think anyone should gointo the realm of apologetics
(12:30):
because they like to argue.
When someone says, oh, I love toargue, I think that person is
immature or just reallyunhealthy in some way.
So you don't go intoapologetics because you like to
argue or you like to debate.
Debating is a part ofapologetics, but it's one of
those things that there'shealthy and unhealthy forms of
(12:52):
debating.
And a lot of people think well,if I'm arguing with someone,
I'm like a debater or somethingRight?
No you're just arguing withsomeone.
So don't go into apologeticsbecause you like to win
arguments and you want to ownthe heretics or something.
Don't do that to own theheretics or something.
(13:17):
Don't do that.
But go into apologetics becausemaybe you're getting questioned
at work by your atheist friend,or maybe you came across
something online that haschallenged your faith and you
don't have an answer for it.
Well, rest assured and I'vesaid this in a previous episode
don't panic.
Rest assured that someone alongthe line in the long history of
Christianity has probablythought about and dealt with
(13:40):
that challenge you justencountered.
So go and seek out an answerfrom someone who's maybe thought
about it a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, yeah, that was going to be one of the questions
that I was going to ask about.
What do you think Christiansget wrong about apologetics?
And I think one of them is thatis thinking that it's just
going into argue your point, youknow, and it's much more than
that.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
And unfortunately, in this day and age, with TikTok
and Instagram and all the reelsthat people make, I see this a
lot, even in the apologeticspace, where people are
confusing a two minute or even a30 second reel of, like a
gotcha moment.
It's like, that's like, that'sa debate, and I would just
(14:22):
caution our audience that you'renot going to arrive at truth by
um, doing like, quote, unquote,doing research that way,
watching these two minute clipson YouTube or whatever, where
someone gets a zinger in onsomeone else.
All those videos are clippedand edited to make whoever
(14:45):
produced it look a certain way.
I've seen this with there.
There's some muslim apologistson youtube and they have taken
clips from some christian,well-known christian apologists
that are like debating in apublic square and they make
their own reels out of it.
Like, watch, how you know this.
Muslim questions, uh, thedoctrine of, like, the doctrine
(15:08):
of the trinity, you know,totally, totally backs him into
a corner.
It's like.
And then I watch it.
I'm like.
I'm like, no, he, no, youdidn't like.
I know exactly, I know exactlywhat you're doing here in this
video.
I know exactly what you editedout or what you did not allow to
make it into this video because, if that apology, I'm just
thinking of a particular one inparticular, where this apologist
(15:28):
named cliff nettle- yeah, cliffa lot of people know him.
This muslim apologist had put upthis video of like basically,
these two college, these twomuslim college kids, like,
quote-unquote, owning cliff onits on a subject, and I watched
the video.
I'm like, no, I I know exactlywhat.
What cliff probably, or theangle he probably took when they
(15:49):
challenged him with this andthey the video has clearly
edited out his responses youknow, so it's all that to say.
Don't do research that way.
I would say go watch long formdebates like hour and a half,
two hour, three hour videos.
They're there on youtube, umyou can find them, um of like
(16:11):
scholars debating these issues,because there you'll get the
meat and potatoes of whatthey're talking about and it's
point for point back and forthin a controlled environment to
where it's not like someone'snot trying to throw zingers at
the other person.
They're trying to have a veryrational reason to debate about
different subjects yeah yeah andthe shit.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
And I think one of the themes that I've noticed
when people are doingapologetics is that there's
always like top three, top fivequestions that always come up.
Yeah, and I was going to askyou about that, like what are
some of the ones that you'veheard when it comes to
apologetics that people eitherask the most about or they're
most confused about?
Like what's something commonthat you hear?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
I think it changes over time.
This generation seems to bereally focused on moral problems
from the Bible.
Like is God, this angry,bloodthirsty, genocidal maniac
in the Old Testament?
Like what do you do with that?
Like the differences betweenOld and New testament, how god
(17:13):
is presented, um, so that's,that's a challenge that, like, a
prior generation didn't so muchcare about, but this one does.
Um, you know, some classicthings would be like the reasons
for the existence of god doeshe exist or not?
I would say that thisgeneration, though, is they're
less atheistic, they're lessnaturalistic, so those questions
(17:34):
have kind of like it seems tome that those questions have
aren't as prominent in thespotlight now of the arguments
for the existence of god.
It seems that a lot, of, a lotof younger people don't have a
problem believing in a higherpower or some sort of divine
being or plural being yeah yeah,um.
(17:57):
However, uh, one apologeticquestion that's.
That's pretty um universal now,and I no pun intended is is the
problem of religious pluralism,or religious exclusivity maybe
is another way to put it.
And, and what I mean by that isChristianity would be defined
as an exclusivistic religion andthat its claims to the truth
(18:22):
exclude other religions fromhaving the truth.
So Christianity says Jesus isthe way, the truth and the life
and no man comes to the Fatherbut by him.
So Jesus is the way back to Godand God is a triune being as
revealed in the Bible.
And so Christianity makes thatclaim and says there is no
salvation outside of JesusChrist.
(18:43):
He is the way back to God, heis the way of salvation.
Well, that by its very natureexcludes other religious claims.
So Christianity is anexclusivistic religion in that
sense.
It's not exclusive in that somepeople get to join and others
don't.
Don't shoot me, calvinists.
I'm just saying it's not a clubwhere you need a special ticket
(19:05):
to get in.
God holds his hand out toeveryone and offers the way of
salvation to all people.
But salvation is exclusivelythrough Jesus Christ.
It's not through Muhammad, it'snot through Buddha, it's not
through Shiva or Vishnu orGanesha, any of the Hindu gods.
(19:28):
It's not through any of that.
It's through Jesus Christ, thehindu gods.
It's not through any of that.
Through jesus christ, yeah, butin this day and age, with young
people, they see all theseother religions.
Um, they all claim to have someknowledge and some religious
experiences and they again.
Another moral problem is whywould, um, why would?
(19:49):
Uh?
What happens to people who'venever heard the gospel Like, why
would God send them to hell?
In the Christian religion, thatseems to be what happens.
So that again, that's anothermoral problem that they bring up
.
It's not a belief about.
Is there something supernatural?
But why would God do it thatway?
It seems unjust.
Yeah.
So there's a lot of moralquestions that come up with this
generation?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It definitely does, and it's interesting too,
because I think the increase forthis younger generation has
been in spirituality, but it'skind of been a little bit of
everything.
So it's not necessarily thatthey become more spiritual but
less religious, right?
So the idea of spirituality isappealing to them, the idea of a
(20:30):
higher power and all thesedifferent things, different
religions but their religiosity,which is their behaviors going
to church, attending communities, having home groups, all of
that has declined.
So it's very interesting to seethe interest in spiritual
things, but avoiding the verything that makes it distinct
from the other religions, andseeking community.
(20:53):
Everyone says I'm a Christianand there's a lot of meaning to
that, and I think what they'resaying is either I believe in
God or I have been awakened tothis new age spirituality.
And that was a big thing, Imean.
I've interviewed a couple ofpeople who used to be in the new
um spiritual world, uh, per seand um, they've come out of it.
(21:16):
So again, just a lot ofinteresting journeys that people
have had when seeking god yeah,I mean the, this generation.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
The term is remixed religion that they're.
They're remixing old forms ofreligion to make essentially new
religions.
They're not really that new,but they're youing old forms of
religion to make essentially newreligions.
They're not really that new,but they're new forms of it.
It's like you go to arestaurant and they use the same
five ingredients for every dish.
It's like that kind ofrestaurant.
It sounds like a spirituality.
(21:48):
Yeah, yeah, like a spirituality,yeah, yeah.
So, um, yeah, they're spiritualbut they don't want to adhere
to, uh, maybe a historic faithlike historic christianity or
historic some church they rejecttraditionalism, yeah yeah yeah
but it's not.
You know that even that's kindof changing, because some people
(22:08):
are.
They see all the craziness inour culture and they are
actually choosing to come backto a historic, traditional faith
in some sense.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Well, you've talked about the sex differences, even
within that, yeah it is mostlymen who are coming back.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
A lot of women are shifting toward feminism, and
then feminism being a gateway tonew age spirituality, animism,
witchcraft and other things likethat.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
So, as we're talking about this aspect of apologetics
, we talked a little bit aboutkind of what Christians may get
wrong.
So where do we want to pointpeople to as they kind of
prepare for defending theirfaith, Because not everyone has
the same.
Maybe a lot of people feel likeI'm not the right person to
defend the faith because I can'tarticulate it well or they just
(23:02):
don't feel capable of doingthat.
We know that we need to preachthe gospel.
That's a command that Jesus hasgiven to all of us.
We need to preach the gospel,but I think there's some people
who are afraid of speaking upand defending the faith because
they don't know enough or feellike that should be someone
else's job.
What would you say to them, Iguess, who are in that space of?
(23:23):
I know I'm preaching the gospel, but I don't know if I could
take on these bigger issues.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Well, I would say you don't have to take on the big
issues.
Apologetics can be a form ofspiritual discipline for you
that's good yeah, you know a lotof christians, I think and we
all do this to some extent with,with, with other things in our
lives where we encountersomething that scares us and
we're kind of afraid to.
We're afraid of the what theanswer is.
(23:50):
It could be like um you, somepeople, they have something
medically wrong with them, butthey're afraid to go to the
doctor and actually find outwhat it is Because they're
afraid of the bad news.
You know what I'm saying.
It could be like someone hasencountered something online or
at work that has challengedtheir faith and, rather than
(24:10):
going and seeking out the answer, they're not, they're just
stagnant and they're cause,they're afraid that maybe there
isn't an answer out there, and Iwould challenge them that
apologetics can be a form ofstrengthening your own faith,
where you might be great atevangelism and terrible at like
debating point for point andbeing like a Ben Shapiro, you
(24:32):
know like you don't have to dothat, but having the requisite
knowledge, like operating inyour mind where you've learned a
little bit about history,you've learned a little bit
about philosophy, you've learneda little bit about the key
tenets and arguments forChristianity, and that's just
(24:53):
there in your mind and as you'rewitnessing to people, maybe a
question that they've had comesup and maybe you've dealt with
that personally in your life.
So I would just say you don'thave to study apologetics to go
out and be some debater oncollege campuses.
It actually can help youpersonally in your own spiritual
(25:15):
walk if you're wrestling withdoubts, and then it can help you
just in conversation withpeople.
I mean, I've had that many,many times where I don't like
the formal debates.
I don't like entering into somesort of formal debate with
people, but just in conversingwith people there's a lot.
Let me just say this theaverage Christian doesn't really
(25:38):
know a lot of these apologeticissues, how to work through them
, how to talk through them.
If the average Christiandoesn't know that there are
answers for their faith.
How much less do unbelieversknow?
that there are answers for theChristian faith, right, okay?
So just take heart, christian,that once you start studying
these things, it might becomevery fascinating for you and it
(26:01):
might actually be a greatencouragement, like you might
actually become encouraged andemboldened spiritually, so that
way you actually have moreconfidence when you evangelize
people.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah, no, I love that , I love that.
Uh, I thought, yeah, you said Isaw a book that you brought in.
I'm like yeah, I think I havethat book yeah it's the
encyclopedia of apologetics.
Yeah, I have a few.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
I have a bunch of resources here, but um, so I'll
just.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
I was going to walk through them.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
The first one here is is one that's been around
liberty circles for a long, longtime.
Um, it's called the popularencyclopedia of apologetics.
Um and uh, it's, it's basicallya.
It's a very popular level as,again, as the title says, it's a
popular level anthology ofdifferent apologetic topics.
(26:48):
If you crack open the table ofcontents, it has uh, it has
dozens and dozens and dozens oftopics.
I mean probably probably ahundred different topics that it
gives short answers to that aremaybe a page or two long it
just gives you a nice succinctanswer now.
It's not going to be robust, uh,but it's going to get you kind
(27:11):
of going.
It's going to whet yourappetite, give you some quick
answers.
Another one is and I'm suremany people, have heard of this.
It's called the Case for Christand it's by Lee Strobel.
It's a good book on theresurrection and the format of
this book is Lee Strobel goesaround and interviews different
(27:32):
experts on the topic and hebasically I think it's kind of a
biopic on how he came to Christ, but it's a really famous book.
Another one is very similar tothat.
I think he's actuallyinterviewed in the Case for
Christ.
This is by Gary Habermas andMichael Lacona.
(27:52):
This is called the Case for theResurrection of Jesus.
Now, this is a heavy hittingbook, just on that topic
specifically.
And again, it's a reallyaccessible book.
It's not like you don't have toknow Greekreek and hebrew you
know to to read it.
It's a really a good book.
Uh, another one, last one, oractually two, I get two here.
(28:14):
Where'd it go?
It dropped anyway, it's oh,here it is.
It's a mere christianity is forsitting right under my arm, mere
christianity by cs lewis.
A lot of people know of thisbook.
A lot of people have read thisbook.
Um, but it's a great classicwork that just CS Lewis boils
down what are the mere basictenets of Christianity.
(28:35):
What do we need to be concernedabout?
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Do all of these authors have similar backgrounds
?
I mean, you mentioned doubtingone's faith and wrestling with
those big questions, and I knowwe see that with CS Lewis and I
know that's happened with LeeStrobel.
Do you see any themes in theirbackgrounds that made them write
these books?
Well, Lee.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Strobel, was an atheist and then he became a
Christian.
Through that process, cs Lewis,I guess, was raised Anglican
and then he was an atheist for along time and then he
eventually came to Christ.
I don't know if he wrestledwith doubts.
I'm not a CS Lewis biographerso I couldn't tell you the arc
(29:22):
of his story.
Gary Habermas was a Christianfor a long time.
He's a Christian most of hislife but, um, he wrestled with a
lot of doubts, um and uh,emotional and intellectual
doubts and um.
So that's what kind of led himinto this career of defending
the, the resurrection, um, andmichael lacona I don't know much
(29:45):
about uh, personally I don'tknow how long he's been a
Christian and whatnot.
The popular encyclopedia it'sedited by Ed Hindson and Ergen
Kanner, but all the differentchapters are by just tons of
different people.
So, there's lots of differentChristians there.
There's one more book.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
If you really want to dive in.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
This is a sledgehammer book.
This is called PhilosophicalFoundations for a Christian
Worldview.
Now, the title should tell yousomething that this is about
philosophical apologetics.
So this is like the heavy kindof mental work.
And this is written by JP More,william lane, craig.
I love this.
I love this book because it's a.
(30:30):
It's a great resource.
Um, it's got, it's a commonanthology book.
It's got lots of differenttopics.
Almost think of it like it'slike a systematic theology.
But really or for apologetics.
It's like a that's cool, yeah,big, hip, thick book like that.
Another one just off the top ofmy head would be scaling the
secular city by jp moreland.
(30:51):
Um, that's a really great book.
There's like a basicapologetics book yeah yeah, yeah
, always some good resourcesthere.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, yeah, we should be getting some royalties on
the.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Yeah, yeah yeah, some , some other like good websites
would be William Lane Craig'sReasonable Faith website.
That's a great one to go out to.
I've mentioned this one before.
Stand to Reason.
That's Greg Kugel's website.
Another one it's sort of acreation website.
(31:25):
It's called Reasons to Believe.
It's sort of a creation website.
It's called Reasons to Believeand they're in Old Earth.
They take the Old Earthposition, but they have some
great resources, both in Genesisand in other areas of
apologetics.
That's why I recommend them.
What's one more Wellgotquestionsorg.
(31:50):
That's a good one for just Biblequestions, and they're going to
have stuff for apologeticsthere as well.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, I like that.
I think one part that we'vetouched on here a lot is kind of
how maybe your story oranyone's story can kind of lead
them into I should know a littlebit more about my faith.
Or maybe you've encountered aquestion more often with either
your friends or family members.
Family member is a big onealways and there's questions.
(32:20):
So look for themes.
I think what I would recommendlook for themes in your life of
people, of just questions thatthey have, because that's the
population that you're workingwith.
So, for me, with collegestudents, of people of just
questions that they have,because that's the population
that you're working with.
So, for me, with um collegestudents, one of the questions
that they had in the last coupleof years was the whole
deconstruction thing.
Yeah, right, that became a hugeissue and it was almost
stigmatized.
Like the fact that you havequestions is not the problem is,
(32:41):
what do you do with thosequestions afterwards?
Right, and so some decide toleave their faith, others, it
just made it stronger so I thinkthis aspect of apologetics is
key yeah, and and for anyonelistening, I mean, uh, the
defending one's faith.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
It can come from different angles.
Like you could be inconversation and someone's like,
what about evolution?
Well, there you go, right,there's a topic of apologetics.
Or someone says, well, yourtruth is your truth and my truth
is my truth.
Well, that's another one,that's relativism, so you got to
know how to deal with that one.
Um, it could be like again, the, the god calls for genocide in
the old testament.
(33:14):
Like so people just throw outthings all the time all these
kind of objections.
These are all apologetic innature.
Yeah, of having to know how toanswer that with people and
don't feel like you, you have tohave all the answers.
Yeah, some of the mostbeautiful words in the english
language that's the most freeingis say I don't know.
Yeah, and just I've had to saythat sometimes I'll be like,
(33:37):
well, you know, that'sinteresting, I'll have to go,
I'll go look that up.
I'm not familiar with that, butI'll go look that up yeah but I
usually well, this is, I'mtrained on these things, so
usually'll say but here's what Iwould probably say, you know,
and I would give him some sortof answer you know, but yeah,
you gotta give him something.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, yeah, that's good, that's good man.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
But it's okay.
It's okay to not have theanswer or it's okay to have
multiple answers.
Yeah.
So a lot of times peopleChristians think like I've got
to have the answer for aspecific question and you
actually don't, because if theperson who is sorry, I'm taking
over here but the person who'sobjecting they're giving an
(34:16):
objection to Christianity.
Christianity is not truebecause of X, y and Z, like
Christianity is not true becauseof evolution, or Christianity
is not true because Jesus didn'trise from the dead, or
something like that.
Okay, you could have multipleanswers for them.
Like with the evolutionquestion.
All you have to do is show themthat Christianity is.
(34:36):
There's multiple ways of makingChristianity compatible with,
or let me rephrase that there'smultiple explanations that you
could offer that are compatiblewith Christianity.
So one could be the young earthposition, but one could be an
(34:57):
old earth position as well.
That's perfectly compatiblewith Christianity.
Some of the young earthers aregoing to get all twisted on that
one.
But again, the objector is theone who needs to.
You know, prove that this topic, this, whatever this objection
is, is the thing that defeatschristianity.
(35:18):
So all you got to do is offerexplanations that defeat the
defeater yeah, if that makessense.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah, no, that does.
That does.
And to your point earlier, Ithink it just stuck with me that
watching these apologists livethat out, meaning when they're
debating other people, there'ssomething special about that
because you see it not just atthe intellectual level but also
a relational level.
There's a relational piece tobeing an apologetic.
(35:45):
Is that how you would say todefending the faith because
you're relating to the people?
How you would say to defendingthe faith because you're
relating to the people, soyou're demonstrating to them the
love of Christ and also you'reeducating them on the process,
and it does require both.
So just to counter that ideathat we mentioned earlier, that
a lot of people say in cultureis that only one partisan is
either just live out your faithor just say something or talk
about your faith and that'senough.
(36:06):
They both need to go hand inhand.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Yeah, I mean doing apologetics is a part of
discipleship.
So if you think of it that way,you know Jesus is go out and
make disciples, teaching them toabsorb all things that I've
commanded you.
The apologetics aspect of thatis not just dunking on someone
in an argument like it.
Think of it as education, thinkof it as like okay, this person
(36:32):
has these objections, uh, tochristianity.
Maybe behind those objectionsthere's emotional things.
Um, that could be the case too.
Um, so you got to usediscernment.
But just know, like you'reoffering, you're offering
solution.
You're offering an answer and asolution for them.
You're offering a way for themto understand how God could be
(36:54):
working in their life, howChristianity could be true.
You don't have to get upsetover it.
No, definitely not.
You don't have to get afraid orinsecure or defensive over it.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Love that.
That's good Tim.
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