January 15, 2025 • 34 mins
Men's vulnerability is often misunderstood, seen as a weakness rather than a path for deeper connections. This episode explores what vulnerability means for men, the significance of having safe relationships, and how emotional intelligence can help regulate and properly share feelings.
• Understanding vulnerability as a willingness to expose feelings
• Differences in how men and women share vulnerabilities
• Importance of having trustworthy male friends for support
• Societal pressures and the notion of toxic masculinity
• Balancing emotional expression with emotional control
• The framework of emotional intelligence in men
• The role of empathy in male relationships
• Seeking safe spaces for sharing emotions
• Conclusion: the value of selective vulnerability
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and
Theo podcast.
Sam and Tim here, and we arediscussing have been discussing
some really good topics lately.
I mean, I think they're allgood topics, but sometimes they
hit a little bit stronger thanothers.
And today, though, we're goingto be discussing about men and
vulnerability the when and how.
I think this is an importanttopic because we used to ask the
(00:26):
question, or we did ask thequestion before is should men be
vulnerable?
And the answer was yes, and weexplained a little bit about how
or why that's important.
Today, we'll talk about how tobe vulnerable and when to be
vulnerable and with who to bevulnerable, so hopefully it
provides a good guidance forthose of you guys who are
listening.
Most of our audience, at leaston Instagram, are male, but a
(00:54):
lot of our listeners it's apretty good mix, half and half,
I think.
No, actually, it's like 60-40,60 women and 40% men, so that's
always good to just kind of see.
But today we're going to talkabout men and vulnerability, tim
, about what this looks like andwhat vulnerability actually is.
So, if you're tuning in, thankyou for doing so, share the
podcast, leave us a ratingreview and follow us on
(01:16):
Instagram.
We need one more, at this pointat least.
We need one more to hit 100,and that allows us to kind of
take in the data and make somebetter decisions, that we're
moving forward with our content.
Have some good ideas for nextyear.
Yeah, we can continue to tunein.
So let's jump into the topic.
Tim, vulnerability, discussingvulnerability, and the first
(01:39):
thing that I'll do is I willlearn from my good friend, tim
here.
Let's define our termsVulnerability what does it mean
to be vulnerable?
Well, this was somethingdiscussed a lot on social media
four or five years ago, andeveryone was sharing the deepest
, darkest secrets and traumas oftheir lives.
And I started to think tomyself is this a good thing that
(02:02):
people are doing?
And everyone was tellingeveryone to be vulnerable, and
even more so, there was thispush, as we're talking about
masculinity, about men need tobe vulnerable.
They need to share theirthoughts, their feelings and
everything else, and I don'tknow I had some questions as to
whether or not that's good ornot, but it is.
We'll discuss when and how, butfirst, what is vulnerability?
(02:24):
So vulnerability is essentiallythe willingness to expose your
feelings, thoughts andexperiences, including your
fears, insecurities and emotions, and doing so with people who
you would consider to be closeto you.
Now, in a previous episode, Imade a distinction between how
men and women kind of not howthey share vulnerability, but
(02:48):
how they communicatevulnerability in their circles,
and men often do so when theyare side by side with someone.
Women usually do it face toface, meaning that in groups,
women listen to each other, theytake turns, they empathize with
each other, and it's usually inconversation.
For men, it's as they're doingthings, they're talking about
(03:10):
different things and all of asudden they'll tie in something
from their life and touch onthat a little bit, and that's
how they briefly share.
They're testing the watersessentially.
So, yeah, so essentially, menare not taught to be vulnerable,
and I don't know if that's themessage that I would even start
(03:30):
with when I talk about men beingvulnerable.
I think the first thing I wouldstart with is do you have some
good, safe Christian men aroundyou?
I think that's what.
Before even sharing aboutvulnerability, I want to see
what your circle looks like,because oftentimes men already
feel like they're not listenedto or heard.
(03:53):
So to already have that feelinggoing into a situation or into
a group where you're beingcalled to be vulnerable.
That's going to be tough tojust go from zero to 60, just
like that.
So, first it's identified, doyou have any good, safe
Christian men in your circles?
Right, good men, men who areworking, men who are serving the
(04:18):
church, serving the Lord,serving others, men who are
committed to their profession,doing what they need to do, and
then are they following the Lord, and what does that look like?
What do you admire about themin their pursuit of the Lord and
so on?
So that you have those menaround you, then you can start
thinking about being vulnerable.
But I do have a question foryou, tim, because we're talking
(04:43):
about men and vulnerability.
What have you, I guess,understood, or what kind of
messaging have you had aboutvulnerability?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
For me me personally.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Or like what, like what?
What have you heard when youhear the word um men need to be
more vulnerable?
Like what?
What kind of comes up for youas you think about that?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Well, honestly, I mean, in recent years, I've seen
just the opposite.
I've seen a push toward uh,lack like don't.
They don't say don't bevulnerable, but uh, it's a push
toward uh, like an expressivemasculinity that doesn't show
vulnerability, right, um, it'skind of, yeah, toxic masculinity
(05:21):
.
Yeah, so I mean um, um, yeah,toxic masculinity.
Yeah, so I mean um, you know, Idon't think I've actually
experienced a personal like on apersonal level, of like people
saying you need to be.
I've had some people say to mebe more vulnerable.
They've told you yeah, and Ijust like you can't, you can't
just demand that of people Likethe walls are going to go up and
you do like, oh, wow, you toldme to be more vulnerable.
(05:43):
Okay, here are my scars, like,here are my warts and my scabs.
It's like, what are you doing?
You know, I just find itannoying when people say those
things you know, um, I don'tknow, like.
I think there's so many clichesaround the issue that it's hard
to get to a specific of likewhat's vulnerable and what's not
.
Here's some examples I haveseen in recent years pushing in
(06:07):
the opposite direction ofpushing men not to be vulnerable
.
They'll say things like I sawsomething on Twitter a couple of
years ago.
Someone said your family shouldnever see you cry, you should
never allow your family to seeyou cry, and, of course, all of
the mindless midwits you knowtweeting below that.
(06:28):
We're like yeah, you're totallyright.
Yeah, like one time, like mydad cried in front of us and we
never looked at it in the sameway again.
It's like you guys are justfull of it, like you're, you
guys are a bunch of liars.
Like, yeah, like, so there's a,there's a push toward that.
Like, um, I think it's a.
I think there's a reaction tothe, the uh feminist culture
(06:50):
that wants to make masculinitytoxic and therefore reward men
who are more effeminate or morevulnerable.
Let's say, not the femininityand vulnerability go hand in
hand, that's not what I'm sayingbut men who are willing to be
more emotionally vulnerable andexpressive, they get rewarded.
(07:10):
And then the toxic the quoteunquote, toxic masculinity gets
punished.
Well then, there's a reactionto that now, where men are like
if you think that's toxic, waittill you see this, and maybe
they, they want to even justhave more outward expressions of
masculinity.
Don't cry, don't do this, don'tdo that.
We just know that's foolish,that's, that's not how human
(07:33):
beings are.
Yeah, human beings are wired ina certain way.
Now men are going to cry lessthan men or than women.
Um, men are going to be, onaverage, in general, going to be
less emotionally, um triggered,like triggered, uh, less
emotionally, um, um, uh, wiredto to to cry or to to want to
(07:55):
want to show vulnerabilities,because men are protectors by
nature and so, in being aprotector, wanting to be a
protector, is like I.
I don't want people to worryabout my vulnerabilities because
I need to.
I need to be concerned aboutother, I need to protect other
people, so don't worry about me,I'm protecting you, kind of a
mindset.
Yeah, I think a lot of guys canrelate to that.
(08:16):
I think so too.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
And that was a big part of asking that question is
that I think a lot of men relateto what you just shared is that
I hear the conversation aroundvulnerability and I know kind of
what it looks like.
But depending on where you grewup and what your age is and
maybe even your culturalbackground, you're going to have
a different perspective onvulnerability.
And again, the reason why Istarted off with can you
(08:41):
identify first these good, safeChristian men in your life is
because I don't think we don'teven have step one down to be
vulnerable.
Because if you're vulnerablewithout having that security of
good men around you, then reallyyou're going to feel more
exposed and you're going to feelless than You're going to feel
(09:03):
incapable.
You're going to feel likeyou're not worth it, like your
worth also comes into play,because a big part of being a
man is kind of what you weresaying about am I responsible or
can I be responsible for otherpeople?
But to share just a little bitabout how I came to my
understanding of vulnerabilityis that the vulnerable piece is
when you've reached your limitor when you're starting to get
(09:27):
close to your limit of how muchemotional pain you've been able
to go through right.
Men naturally need to reflect onthings, to process it right.
You process things on your ownand then, once you've processed
and made some sense of it, thenyou start sharing with other
people of it.
Then you start sharing withother people.
(09:48):
Vulnerability is a controlledbehavior, meaning that you're
choosing to divulge someinformation about yourself, a
weakness, an area that you don'tfeel too comfortable with, and
you're choosing who you're goingto deliver that message to, and
I think what's happened is thatit had been emphasized so much
that men just started sharingwith anyone, and what they
realized is that those peoplereally didn't care about what
(10:10):
that information was, becausethey weren't the safe, good
group of people that they needed.
They just thought it was amatter of sharing.
So you have men who then becameoverly emotional, to the point
where they weren't able tocontrol themselves overly
emotional to the point wherethey weren't able to control
themselves, right?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So so are you saying like in like, someone can become
emotionally like dysregulatedby oversharing, a lot like
habitually oversharing.
Yes, that's particularly right.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, because imagine you're, imagine all you talk
about is your emotions.
Well, what about the control ofemotions?
Yeah, isn't isn't one of theone of the fruits of the spirit?
Self-control, right?
And I think a big part of thatties into this aspect of not
just masculinity butvulnerability is that if you're
always talking about youremotions, what's always on your
(10:58):
mind your emotions, but notrestraints, not discipline, not
goodness, right, it's.
How am I feeling?
So men would first need to beable to do is to be able to
experience an emotion, identifythe emotion and then regulate
that emotion.
That's just emotional maturityin general, or emotional
(11:20):
intelligence.
What we would call today is thatpeople who are emotionally
intelligent are not the ones whohave necessarily can talk about
their emotions, and that'soften confused a lot and that's
actually been a goodconversation in the counseling
field is that people areconfusing emotional intelligence
with being able to talk aboutyour emotion.
(11:41):
That's not emotionalintelligence.
Emotional intelligence isexperiencing an emotion,
identifying what emotion that isand then regulating that
emotion.
Right, Because people can talkabout their feelings all they
want, but if they don't know howto actually regulate it, then
that's not intelligent, becauseyou're just experiencing what
everyone else is experiencing,right.
So if someone experiences anger, okay, that's okay,
(12:06):
experiencing right.
So if someone experiences anger, okay, that's okay.
We all experience anger at somepoint right Now.
What kind of anger is it?
Is it rage, like what causedyou to become in a in a state of
rage or fury?
Right?
Is it justifiable, right?
So if someone speaks ill ofyour family, like, should you be
at a rage?
Should you be angry, frustrated, upset, disappointed with
(12:29):
something Like what's theemotion?
That would tie in, and that'sgoing to vary with different
people.
But if you can identify whatthe emotion is, then you look at
that and you say, okay, how canI regulate this emotion?
What is this going to cause meto do?
It would not be appropriate foryou to go up to someone and
punch them in the face becausehe said something about your
family.
You may feel that way, but theemotional intelligence piece
(12:51):
that you're able to regulatethat emotion and make different
sense of it.
Is it going to be beneficialfor me to do that?
No, it's probably not wise forme to do that, right?
And that's where this happens.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
So instead of punching them in the face, you
plot to get them later.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
You make this long-term plan.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yeah, long-term plan 20 years.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, at some point it'll come.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Okay.
Well then, what's thedifference between self-control
that is, regulating youremotions and repressing?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
your emotions Good so .
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Because a lot of men would be there where I'm not
going to talk about, I'm notgoing to like.
They grew up in an environmentwhere it wasn't safe to talk
about certain things.
Yeah, dad told him don't cry,men, men, don't cry, boys don't
cry.
A lot of, you know a lot ofguys grew up in that or you know
maybe they didn't hear thatmessage, but if you did cry, you
got punished or like you gotostracized in some way.
You, you were labeled a crybabyor whatever.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, so remember the first one was experience the
emotion.
So if you cried before that'sthe experience of the emotion,
right.
And you were told don't cry.
As you continue to receive thatmessage and you got older, you
just don't cry, even for thingsthat are really really sad or
really painful Physically.
You can't cry because you havethat strong messaging.
(14:02):
So you're missing the firstthing, which is to experience
the emotion.
So how do you break free fromthat?
Right?
And that's where it becomesvery difficult, because you have
to start first with themessaging Is it okay to cry Like
?
From my belief system background, it wasn't seen as positive for
you to cry Like.
You got to tough it out.
(14:23):
Life is hard, tough it out,okay.
So that's what I grew up with.
But, man, there was a time whereI experienced so much pain and
all I could do was cry.
I didn't share that with otherpeople, but I myself cried.
I'm like why am I crying?
I was shaming myself.
Why am I crying?
I need to be tough about this,I don't.
Why is this affecting me somuch?
And I remember that because Ihadn't let myself pray for so
(14:45):
many years.
Then I get to this point, andit was so painful that there was
nothing else to do but to pray.
And I just sat on that and said, okay, this is weird.
What kind of sense does thismake?
What does this mean about me asa man?
What does this mean about memoving forward and so on?
And you just start to makesense of it.
So you have to make sense ofthis new message in your life
(15:05):
that it works for you whereyou're able to identify and then
control it.
So now I can still experiencethat and know what it's like,
but I'm going to choose whatthings.
I'm going to allow myself toexperience that type of pain
again.
So you become more selective.
I'm not going to cry forsomething that someone else is
going to cry, because I wouldfeel that my pain was so much
(15:28):
that this is not at that levelyet.
But if something hits thatlevel, I'll allow myself to cry.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
If that makes any sense.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
So that's why people who have experienced a lot of
pain or a lot of trauma in theirlife you can't tell them to
just cry, because they probablysee something from the past that
was much more painful than whatthey're currently going through
and they're like well, this isnot as bad as that was, so why
would I cry for this?
You know it's because they'veallowed all of that pain to
happen at that time, so theydon't see it at the same level
(15:58):
anymore.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
yeah, right then what about this for you?
Another curveball then, whatabout?
about empathy?
So sometimes men receive amessage that so men are often
labeled as, like, they'relacking empathy.
Okay, and how that translatesis men don't cry with other
people, like in a sad situation.
(16:20):
Men may not feel the emotion ofthe situation or allow
themselves to feel the emotionof the situation and to be
affected by it.
You know, but a trulyempathetic person might, might
do that.
You know so, like you knowwhere.
So sometimes men receive thismessage well, if you, if you cry
in this situation, you're not aman, you're weak, you know
(16:42):
whatever.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
But then there might be told you're not empathetic if
you, if you don't cry right,right no that's a great question
and it actually brings up areally good point too is that,
you know, because we areprimarily logic focused or want
to make sense of something, thelack of empathy in that specific
scenario can actually behelpful.
(17:04):
Right, it's the message thatwas wrong.
Like, the message was youshouldn't cry.
You know, that doesn't make youa man.
That's not the message that youwant to communicate to someone
else.
What you would communicate isas a man who's trying to show
some empathy hey, I'm here foryou.
What do you need?
How can I help?
Right, that's communicating.
(17:28):
Empathy is I feel what you'refeeling.
But if I feel everything thatyou're feeling right now, I'm
not going to be objective enoughto help you, to provide a
solution, right, or to just sitwith you.
Even Like, if I sit with youand I experience exactly what
you're feeling number one Ican't experience it fully, but I
can show you that I care, whichI think is what matters more to
men.
It's not that you're feelingwhat I'm feeling because we
don't know.
Right, I can put myself in, Ican listen to something that you
(17:50):
share, and it could be theworst thing that I would ever
experience.
I would say, oh man, that wouldbe tough for me to go through,
so I wouldn't be able to feelwhat you're feeling, but I could
show you that I care for youwhile I'm listening to you.
Share right.
Empathy is often confused andsaying that I have more feelings
or I can feel more because I'mfeeling what you're experiencing
, but you lose objectivity withthat if you're feeling only what
(18:12):
the other person is feeling.
So empathy is good momentarily,not good in the long term,
because that will continue toweigh you down.
Imagine if you know working asa counselor.
Imagine if my empathy was allon all the time.
I'd be drained every single daybecause you're feeling
everything that everyone isfeeling.
After hearing stories of trauma, I come home.
(18:34):
I'm not thinking about itanymore because it's a skill
that you have to learn to notstay attached to those things.
So empathy is momentary.
It's in the moment type ofthing where you're just trying
to connect with the person andletting them know that you care.
There's the aspect of sympathy,which is feeling bad for someone
.
Empathy they describe it asfeeling what the other person is
(18:55):
feeling.
So you want to do your best.
The purpose of empathy is tohelp you feel connected to the
person or to help the personfeel that they're connected to
you.
Yeah, um, so I think for us asmen is that when we look at
vulnerability and we're hearingsomeone share, what we want to
communicate to them is I careabout you, not you're weak
(19:15):
because you're you're showing aweakness right now, right, or
you're not a man because you'reshowing weakness.
It's I'm here for you.
What do you need?
How can I help you?
Type of thing okay, I think.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
So you answered one part of the question.
That's like how to respond to aman who is crying, but I'm
talking more so about men who,who, um, can feel the situation,
can feel the pain of anotherperson, and, um, they're.
Those men are often like theymight become teary-eyed, you
know, because they can feel,yeah, the emotion of another
(19:46):
person, they truly do sympathizewith another person, and that
makes them emotional, and thosemen are told they're not being a
man.
What do you have to say aboutthat?
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, I mean.
Well, that one piece is I don'tthink that's the.
That's the message that they'recommunicating, that they're not
being meant because they areempathizing with me.
So are you saying like if youwere to empathize?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I'm saying like outsiders, like, like a imagine,
like a third party looking at asituation may like oh, and
seeing another guy right, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
What would I say?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Well, I mean, I guess I say they're sharing a
brotherly moment there are being.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
How would you, how would you, respond to the critic
is what I'm asking, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
What do you see to the critic?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Like, imagine you see a post on social media and it's
one guy is now, we're nottalking about the cringy, uh
like manhood retreats that wesee online.
Yeah, I know, I could see your,I could see your mind, I go in
there.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about like, um,well, let's say, there's some
guys who are, they're, just morein touch with their emotions.
(21:01):
Okay, they feel things likelike a pastor who tends to cry a
bit more than others, maybe notevery time, but he tends to get
teary-eyed, you know somethinglike that.
And then some critic might saywell, that guy always cries, you
know, whatever it needs totoughen up.
What would you say to that?
Speaker 1 (21:17):
here's the reason why I'm struggling, because I think
there's a part of me and thisis where you know there's the
self awareness piece there's apart of me where I kind of see
that with the guy that would say, man, this guy always cries
Because I think what I've seennot that it's fabricated, I
don't want to say that, but Ithink people try to be
empathetic.
Does that make sense, asopposed to you?
(21:41):
When something bad happens insomeone's life, there's this
natural inclination to want tofeel better about that,
especially if it's someone thatwe care about, right.
But I think for some peoplethey don't feel that sad, but
they try to fabricate it andthey try to make it seem like
they're being so empatheticbecause they're crying with this
brother.
That's where I feel like I getlike a little, I don't know.
(22:04):
It feels disingenuous, right, itdoesn't feel real.
I'm not saying everyone's likethat, but that's the initial.
So I'm trying to understand itfrom that perspective of okay,
when I see it, how do I respond?
I think I respond with okay,that's a little too much for you
to be crying at the same levelthat this guy's crying, to be
with him in that moment.
So it feels sometimes fake tome, but if it's not all the time
(22:27):
and it's kind of okay, I cansee that that deserves some some
level of uh, of sadness andempathy for that person.
But empathy doesn't mean evencrying with the person either,
right.
Empathy doesn't mean mimickingthe other person's emotion or
behavior.
Empathy is you really justtrying to put yourself in their
(22:48):
shoes.
How would I feel if I was intheir shoes, right?
So I think it's that piece,maybe, that the people who cry
with the ones who are crying.
I think they think that they'redeveloping empathy or that
they're showing empathy becausethey're experiencing the same
emotion or they're displayingthe same emotion, but that
doesn't necessarily mean you'rebeing empathetic.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Okay, let me redirect , because I feel, like you're I
think we're kind of talking pasteach other a little bit You're
focused on like the, theone-on-one situation.
I'm sort of thinking about like, uh, like just guys in general,
like maybe they're in a groupand they're talking about
something and they and they theyget a little emotional as
they're talking about it, notnecessarily like a trauma thing,
let's say they're sharing adevotion or they're preaching a
sermon, or they're giving aspeech or whatever you know, or
(23:35):
they're at a birthday party Isaw an old man cry at a birthday
party the other day, you know,and so it's not like every time.
It's maybe like meh, like 5% ofthe time or something, like
something where you don't seethat guy cry all the time, but
it's like a couple of times, youknow, and just some like some
things like get him moreemotional and the critic says,
(23:55):
ah, that guy's a wimp.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Okay, well, I mean the, the, the direct thing to
say to that guy who is saying oh, that guy's a wimp because he's
crying.
It's like, well, I mean, howwould you feel?
I mean, how would you feel ifyou were in those shoes?
What would be a better way torespond to that situation?
To get them to be a little bitmore reflective, because I think
people who are harsh critics Idon't think they have the time
(24:19):
or have taken the time, I'msorry to think about how they
actually feel about certainthings, I mean, on top of them
being wrong and making thatassessment.
It would be a matter of okay,well, how do I get this person
who seems to think that someonecrying is weak I wonder what
would make this person cry?
(24:39):
Like, what would it take foryou to get to that point?
Say nothing, nothing will ever.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
There's something.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I just don't know what that is.
It would be kind of that.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So that was my thought.
I just didn't know.
I was waiting to see if you saidand that's, that's reflection
yeah that that the criticoftentimes is not a deeply
reflective person, because ifthey were to stop and think
about their own life a littlebit, they would realize, oh, I
can be brought to the depths ofto to tears too about certain
(25:10):
things, like some.
There are some things that willbring me to tears, even in
public.
You know, and I think,reflecting on that, that human
beings are this way and thatit's.
It's okay in some instances notevery time like we're talking
about, but it's okay for men andat times to show that kind of
(25:31):
vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah I mean, well, the verse that's used quite
often is what jesus wept, right?
Yeah, like that's one where alot of um christians would say,
well, you know, jesus wept, hewas the manliest man of all,
right, and say why can't you cry?
And again, I think that goesback to people's history, like
I'm thinking now about my dadand I, you know, as a teenager I
saw my dad maybe cry two orthree times and it wasn't
(25:56):
because he necessarily had themachismo about him.
I know that that was somethinghe grew up with, but he didn't
have like a like he didn't havethat, but he was a tougher guy.
But when I hear about his story,like man, how did you go
through all of that?
And you're here, right, so itmakes sense on that scale,
meaning that he experienced somany other negative things
(26:18):
before his life at that timewhen I saw him cry that I would
think to myself, well, it makessense why you wouldn't cry.
I mean, you have so much morepain in your background.
So I think a lot of people whoget to that point, they just get
what's the word dismissive oflife issues, because I've
experienced, or they seethemselves I've experienced much
(26:38):
worse and I didn't cry, type ofthing.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
But I think you know, to your point about maybe your
dad's testimony or some otherguys that have come through a
lot of really hard stuff.
Yeah, Even those guys they'rethey're tough as nails kind of
guys I would dare say was yourdad a Christian?
Yeah, Okay, I would dare say,even though, like some of the
guys that are tough as nailshave come, that have come
(27:03):
through a lot of stuff, If youget them to talk about the Lord
and what the Lord did in theirlife or how the Lord brought
them out of something, you'llyou'll see the tears, you know,
cause that's something that'svery deep in their soul.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah, that's good yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
And if you get them to talk about eternity and
heaven or just the thought ofbeing with the Lord, like you'll
see it, yeah, and so I thinkthat that's that deep reflection
that I'm talking about, wherethere are certain things that
it's okay to tear up about youknow, because they're worth
tearing up about.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Right, right.
And you know.
What's more powerful about thatand I'm sure you've experienced
it too, tim is that think aboutthe deepest, darkest moments
that you've been in your life,and who else was there?
Who else was by your bed whenyou were praying that prayer,
when you were crying your heartout Like no one else was there.
Not that because you didn'thave friends or people who
(27:55):
wanted to be there.
You did have friends, you didhave people there, but it's
those moments when the emotionsjust hit you out of nowhere.
And who else are you gonnashare that with?
You share with the Lord.
That's why it creates so muchmeaning, is that?
Yeah, when I talk about how theLord was there for me during
that time, it means something tome because that was in my
deepest, darkest pain.
He was there right.
(28:16):
So it carries a lot of meaning,and I remember hearing this
phrase too is like the stoic orthe warrior right, the person
who's been through all thesedifferent battles.
They cry in secret or they cryin their times alone.
For the Christian, I think it'sdifferent with the
non-Christian, because theChristian, when they are alone,
they're actually not, becausethey're praying to the Lord, so
(28:38):
they're crying their heart outbefore the Lord, so that creates
that intimate, closerelationship with the Lord, and
I don't know what it would looklike for a non-Christian.
I think they experienced thatloneliness at a different level
is that they're crying tothemselves.
They don't have anyone.
Maybe sometimes the Lord evenuses that to Lord I don't have
anyone here.
If you're real, you know, meetme here where I am right, type
(29:00):
of thing.
But I do see that it's not thatthey don't.
Nothing makes them tear or cryor experience any level of pain
is that there's.
No, they don't see a benefit tosharing that pain with other
people because it's their ownpain and it means something to
them, even for the Christian too.
Right, their pain in theirrelationship with the Lord means
(29:21):
something, is something someaningful between them and the
Lord that why would I want toshare that with other people,
unless they directly ask?
So when people do ask aboutyour life and they get involved
in that, then they get to be apart of that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
And not every believer is entitled to that
information.
That's something that I thinkpeople need to understand.
It's like if your brother orsister doesn't want to share
those things with you, it's notbecause they don't they're a bad
Christian or they can't bevulnerable, it's just you may
not have a right to thatinformation or that part of
their story.
And that's there's.
(29:54):
That's okay, like let them be,you know.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
That's a good point too.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
I think that's a pressure.
I think in the Christiancollege setting is like there's
all this pressure to share,share, share and like share our
stories and everything and likesome people like those, those
things that are so deeplyintimate, like a walk with the
Lord, some things you walk withthe Lord with for years.
No one else needs to know aboutthat.
(30:20):
You know and no one has theright to know.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Maybe it's a better way to put it.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
You can share.
You can share if you want, butno one someone doesn't have a
right to know, just because theyask, yeah, yeah, there's
pressure on both sides.
On one side, hey, be vulnerable.
On the other side is well, Idon't want to have to share
everything with you if I don'tsee you as a close person to me
yeah, um, that's a good pointyeah, um, that's probably a good
place to yeah, yeah, let meclose up here with with with
(30:45):
finding this balance of okay.
So what?
How do you actually share?
How do you become vulnerablewith other people?
Well, first it's assess thecontext and consider the
dynamics of the relationship tothe person that you're going to
be vulnerable with.
I do believe, and I strongly dobelieve, this If you have just
one person, like one person, inyour life that you're able to
share your heart with, that'smore than enough.
(31:06):
Okay, and I say that becauseit's hard to create strong, safe
, healthy relationships withother men.
But when you have that, I meanthat's a goal line, right.
Like you want to use that.
That's the person you can bearone another, do all the one
another's with right.
You call each other out, yousupport each other, you comfort
(31:28):
each other.
Like, you need at least oneperson.
If you have more great right,but have at least one person
that you can be fully open andtransparent with and practice it
.
You know you're usually, whenyou're trying to grow a bigger
circle, you know maybe three tofive people that you want to
have in that circle group testthe waters.
(31:48):
That's part of vulnerability toois, again, you're being
selective about the informationthat you're sharing to see how
are people receiving it.
Some people care, some peopledon't, and I think it was Dr
Jordan Peterson who shared this.
He said don't give your time topeople who don't show an
interest in your life.
Sometimes you share somethingand it's just kind of waved off,
or oh okay, cool, or they don'tshow an interest in your life.
Something you share, somethingis just kind of waved off or oh
okay, cool, or they don't checkup on it again or something like
(32:09):
that.
Okay, Just move on.
You don't need to worry aboutthat, Just move on.
But if you have one person,that's more than enough.
Choose safe environments forthese discussions and be
discerning about the people withwhom you share this information
with.
A lot of guys think ofinformation when they're sharing
as it's going to be usedagainst me Absolutely Right.
So sometimes it is Right,exactly so.
(32:32):
That's it makes sense whythey're guarded.
So, when you share yourinformation, you're always
assessing who are the people inyour life, what, what is the
history of that relationship,that you say this person is a
trustworthy person?
Um, who was it that shared it?
I don't remember who, where Isaw this or who I heard it from,
but it was kind of like.
The people that you choose toshare information with are the
(32:54):
people that you're willing to goto war with, right, that you
know they're going to be rightby your side at all times, so
kind of like a brother, whetherit be ministry, whether it be
serving in another capacity,whatever the case.
Case, those are the people thatyou fully trust because your
life depends on it.
Right, and lastly, foster asense of self-compassion and
(33:15):
emotional intelligence.
Again, self-compassion is theidea of suffering with the self.
Um, the, I think the latin rootis is.
Is that a compassion, which?
Which means to suffer, tosuffer with and suffer with that
part of yourself that's hurting, right, if no one was there for
you during the time that youwere hurting, learn how does how
(33:36):
does God play a role in that?
This is where attachment theorycomes into play.
How does God play a role inthat part of your life where you
were suffering the most?
What role did he play?
He's probably the secureattachment figure in that time
where you were suffering themost.
What role did he play?
He was probably the secureattachment figure in that time.
And emotional intelligence isexperience the emotion, identify
the emotion, regulate theemotion.
That's all it is.
So, if you're feeling angry, ifyou're feeling frustrated, if
(33:57):
you're feeling depressed,anxious, whatever the case is,
once you locate it, identify itand then regulate it.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
And that will help with finding this balance of
vulnerability Sounds good.
Yeah, good job, man.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Good job.
Yeah, all right, we'll see younext time.
See you next time.
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and
Theo podcast.
Sam and Tim here, and we arediscussing have been discussing
some really good topics lately.
I mean, I think they're allgood topics, but sometimes they
hit a little bit stronger thanothers.
And today, though, we're goingto be discussing about men and
vulnerability the when and how.
I think this is an importanttopic because we used to ask the
(00:26):
question, or we did ask thequestion before is should men be
vulnerable?
And the answer was yes, and weexplained a little bit about how
or why that's important.
Today, we'll talk about how tobe vulnerable and when to be
vulnerable and with who to bevulnerable, so hopefully it
provides a good guidance forthose of you guys who are
listening.
Most of our audience, at leaston Instagram, are male, but a
(00:54):
lot of our listeners it's apretty good mix, half and half,
I think.
No, actually, it's like 60-40,60 women and 40% men, so that's
always good to just kind of see.
But today we're going to talkabout men and vulnerability, tim
, about what this looks like andwhat vulnerability actually is.
So, if you're tuning in, thankyou for doing so, share the
podcast, leave us a ratingreview and follow us on
(01:16):
Instagram.
We need one more, at this pointat least.
We need one more to hit 100,and that allows us to kind of
take in the data and make somebetter decisions, that we're
moving forward with our content.
Have some good ideas for nextyear.
Yeah, we can continue to tunein.
So let's jump into the topic.
Tim, vulnerability, discussingvulnerability, and the first
(01:39):
thing that I'll do is I willlearn from my good friend, tim
here.
Let's define our termsVulnerability what does it mean
to be vulnerable?
Well, this was somethingdiscussed a lot on social media
four or five years ago, andeveryone was sharing the deepest
, darkest secrets and traumas oftheir lives.
And I started to think tomyself is this a good thing that
(02:02):
people are doing?
And everyone was tellingeveryone to be vulnerable, and
even more so, there was thispush, as we're talking about
masculinity, about men need tobe vulnerable.
They need to share theirthoughts, their feelings and
everything else, and I don'tknow I had some questions as to
whether or not that's good ornot, but it is.
We'll discuss when and how, butfirst, what is vulnerability?
(02:24):
So vulnerability is essentiallythe willingness to expose your
feelings, thoughts andexperiences, including your
fears, insecurities and emotions, and doing so with people who
you would consider to be closeto you.
Now, in a previous episode, Imade a distinction between how
men and women kind of not howthey share vulnerability, but
(02:48):
how they communicatevulnerability in their circles,
and men often do so when theyare side by side with someone.
Women usually do it face toface, meaning that in groups,
women listen to each other, theytake turns, they empathize with
each other, and it's usually inconversation.
For men, it's as they're doingthings, they're talking about
(03:10):
different things and all of asudden they'll tie in something
from their life and touch onthat a little bit, and that's
how they briefly share.
They're testing the watersessentially.
So, yeah, so essentially, menare not taught to be vulnerable,
and I don't know if that's themessage that I would even start
(03:30):
with when I talk about men beingvulnerable.
I think the first thing I wouldstart with is do you have some
good, safe Christian men aroundyou?
I think that's what.
Before even sharing aboutvulnerability, I want to see
what your circle looks like,because oftentimes men already
feel like they're not listenedto or heard.
(03:53):
So to already have that feelinggoing into a situation or into
a group where you're beingcalled to be vulnerable.
That's going to be tough tojust go from zero to 60, just
like that.
So, first it's identified, doyou have any good, safe
Christian men in your circles?
Right, good men, men who areworking, men who are serving the
(04:18):
church, serving the Lord,serving others, men who are
committed to their profession,doing what they need to do, and
then are they following the Lord, and what does that look like?
What do you admire about themin their pursuit of the Lord and
so on?
So that you have those menaround you, then you can start
thinking about being vulnerable.
But I do have a question foryou, tim, because we're talking
(04:43):
about men and vulnerability.
What have you, I guess,understood, or what kind of
messaging have you had aboutvulnerability?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
For me me personally.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Or like what, like what?
What have you heard when youhear the word um men need to be
more vulnerable?
Like what?
What kind of comes up for youas you think about that?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Well, honestly, I mean, in recent years, I've seen
just the opposite.
I've seen a push toward uh,lack like don't.
They don't say don't bevulnerable, but uh, it's a push
toward uh, like an expressivemasculinity that doesn't show
vulnerability, right, um, it'skind of, yeah, toxic masculinity
(05:21):
.
Yeah, so I mean um, um, yeah,toxic masculinity.
Yeah, so I mean um, you know, Idon't think I've actually
experienced a personal like on apersonal level, of like people
saying you need to be.
I've had some people say to mebe more vulnerable.
They've told you yeah, and Ijust like you can't, you can't
just demand that of people Likethe walls are going to go up and
you do like, oh, wow, you toldme to be more vulnerable.
(05:43):
Okay, here are my scars, like,here are my warts and my scabs.
It's like, what are you doing?
You know, I just find itannoying when people say those
things you know, um, I don'tknow, like.
I think there's so many clichesaround the issue that it's hard
to get to a specific of likewhat's vulnerable and what's not
.
Here's some examples I haveseen in recent years pushing in
(06:07):
the opposite direction ofpushing men not to be vulnerable
.
They'll say things like I sawsomething on Twitter a couple of
years ago.
Someone said your family shouldnever see you cry, you should
never allow your family to seeyou cry, and, of course, all of
the mindless midwits you knowtweeting below that.
(06:28):
We're like yeah, you're totallyright.
Yeah, like one time, like mydad cried in front of us and we
never looked at it in the sameway again.
It's like you guys are justfull of it, like you're, you
guys are a bunch of liars.
Like, yeah, like, so there's a,there's a push toward that.
Like, um, I think it's a.
I think there's a reaction tothe, the uh feminist culture
(06:50):
that wants to make masculinitytoxic and therefore reward men
who are more effeminate or morevulnerable.
Let's say, not the femininityand vulnerability go hand in
hand, that's not what I'm sayingbut men who are willing to be
more emotionally vulnerable andexpressive, they get rewarded.
(07:10):
And then the toxic the quoteunquote, toxic masculinity gets
punished.
Well then, there's a reactionto that now, where men are like
if you think that's toxic, waittill you see this, and maybe
they, they want to even justhave more outward expressions of
masculinity.
Don't cry, don't do this, don'tdo that.
We just know that's foolish,that's, that's not how human
(07:33):
beings are.
Yeah, human beings are wired ina certain way.
Now men are going to cry lessthan men or than women.
Um, men are going to be, onaverage, in general, going to be
less emotionally, um triggered,like triggered, uh, less
emotionally, um, um, uh, wiredto to to cry or to to want to
(07:55):
want to show vulnerabilities,because men are protectors by
nature and so, in being aprotector, wanting to be a
protector, is like I.
I don't want people to worryabout my vulnerabilities because
I need to.
I need to be concerned aboutother, I need to protect other
people, so don't worry about me,I'm protecting you, kind of a
mindset.
Yeah, I think a lot of guys canrelate to that.
(08:16):
I think so too.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
And that was a big part of asking that question is
that I think a lot of men relateto what you just shared is that
I hear the conversation aroundvulnerability and I know kind of
what it looks like.
But depending on where you grewup and what your age is and
maybe even your culturalbackground, you're going to have
a different perspective onvulnerability.
And again, the reason why Istarted off with can you
(08:41):
identify first these good, safeChristian men in your life is
because I don't think we don'teven have step one down to be
vulnerable.
Because if you're vulnerablewithout having that security of
good men around you, then reallyyou're going to feel more
exposed and you're going to feelless than You're going to feel
(09:03):
incapable.
You're going to feel likeyou're not worth it, like your
worth also comes into play,because a big part of being a
man is kind of what you weresaying about am I responsible or
can I be responsible for otherpeople?
But to share just a little bitabout how I came to my
understanding of vulnerabilityis that the vulnerable piece is
when you've reached your limitor when you're starting to get
(09:27):
close to your limit of how muchemotional pain you've been able
to go through right.
Men naturally need to reflect onthings, to process it right.
You process things on your ownand then, once you've processed
and made some sense of it, thenyou start sharing with other
people of it.
Then you start sharing withother people.
(09:48):
Vulnerability is a controlledbehavior, meaning that you're
choosing to divulge someinformation about yourself, a
weakness, an area that you don'tfeel too comfortable with, and
you're choosing who you're goingto deliver that message to, and
I think what's happened is thatit had been emphasized so much
that men just started sharingwith anyone, and what they
realized is that those peoplereally didn't care about what
(10:10):
that information was, becausethey weren't the safe, good
group of people that they needed.
They just thought it was amatter of sharing.
So you have men who then becameoverly emotional, to the point
where they weren't able tocontrol themselves overly
emotional to the point wherethey weren't able to control
themselves, right?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So so are you saying like in like, someone can become
emotionally like dysregulatedby oversharing, a lot like
habitually oversharing.
Yes, that's particularly right.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, because imagine you're, imagine all you talk
about is your emotions.
Well, what about the control ofemotions?
Yeah, isn't isn't one of theone of the fruits of the spirit?
Self-control, right?
And I think a big part of thatties into this aspect of not
just masculinity butvulnerability is that if you're
always talking about youremotions, what's always on your
(10:58):
mind your emotions, but notrestraints, not discipline, not
goodness, right, it's.
How am I feeling?
So men would first need to beable to do is to be able to
experience an emotion, identifythe emotion and then regulate
that emotion.
That's just emotional maturityin general, or emotional
(11:20):
intelligence.
What we would call today is thatpeople who are emotionally
intelligent are not the ones whohave necessarily can talk about
their emotions, and that'soften confused a lot and that's
actually been a goodconversation in the counseling
field is that people areconfusing emotional intelligence
with being able to talk aboutyour emotion.
(11:41):
That's not emotionalintelligence.
Emotional intelligence isexperiencing an emotion,
identifying what emotion that isand then regulating that
emotion.
Right, Because people can talkabout their feelings all they
want, but if they don't know howto actually regulate it, then
that's not intelligent, becauseyou're just experiencing what
everyone else is experiencing,right.
So if someone experiences anger, okay, that's okay,
(12:06):
experiencing right.
So if someone experiences anger, okay, that's okay.
We all experience anger at somepoint right Now.
What kind of anger is it?
Is it rage, like what causedyou to become in a in a state of
rage or fury?
Right?
Is it justifiable, right?
So if someone speaks ill ofyour family, like, should you be
at a rage?
Should you be angry, frustrated, upset, disappointed with
(12:29):
something Like what's theemotion?
That would tie in, and that'sgoing to vary with different
people.
But if you can identify whatthe emotion is, then you look at
that and you say, okay, how canI regulate this emotion?
What is this going to cause meto do?
It would not be appropriate foryou to go up to someone and
punch them in the face becausehe said something about your
family.
You may feel that way, but theemotional intelligence piece
(12:51):
that you're able to regulatethat emotion and make different
sense of it.
Is it going to be beneficialfor me to do that?
No, it's probably not wise forme to do that, right?
And that's where this happens.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
So instead of punching them in the face, you
plot to get them later.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
You make this long-term plan.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yeah, long-term plan 20 years.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, at some point it'll come.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Okay.
Well then, what's thedifference between self-control
that is, regulating youremotions and repressing?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
your emotions Good so .
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Because a lot of men would be there where I'm not
going to talk about, I'm notgoing to like.
They grew up in an environmentwhere it wasn't safe to talk
about certain things.
Yeah, dad told him don't cry,men, men, don't cry, boys don't
cry.
A lot of, you know a lot ofguys grew up in that or you know
maybe they didn't hear thatmessage, but if you did cry, you
got punished or like you gotostracized in some way.
You, you were labeled a crybabyor whatever.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, so remember the first one was experience the
emotion.
So if you cried before that'sthe experience of the emotion,
right.
And you were told don't cry.
As you continue to receive thatmessage and you got older, you
just don't cry, even for thingsthat are really really sad or
really painful Physically.
You can't cry because you havethat strong messaging.
(14:02):
So you're missing the firstthing, which is to experience
the emotion.
So how do you break free fromthat?
Right?
And that's where it becomesvery difficult, because you have
to start first with themessaging Is it okay to cry Like
?
From my belief system background, it wasn't seen as positive for
you to cry Like.
You got to tough it out.
(14:23):
Life is hard, tough it out,okay.
So that's what I grew up with.
But, man, there was a time whereI experienced so much pain and
all I could do was cry.
I didn't share that with otherpeople, but I myself cried.
I'm like why am I crying?
I was shaming myself.
Why am I crying?
I need to be tough about this,I don't.
Why is this affecting me somuch?
And I remember that because Ihadn't let myself pray for so
(14:45):
many years.
Then I get to this point, andit was so painful that there was
nothing else to do but to pray.
And I just sat on that and said, okay, this is weird.
What kind of sense does thismake?
What does this mean about me asa man?
What does this mean about memoving forward and so on?
And you just start to makesense of it.
So you have to make sense ofthis new message in your life
(15:05):
that it works for you whereyou're able to identify and then
control it.
So now I can still experiencethat and know what it's like,
but I'm going to choose whatthings.
I'm going to allow myself toexperience that type of pain
again.
So you become more selective.
I'm not going to cry forsomething that someone else is
going to cry, because I wouldfeel that my pain was so much
(15:28):
that this is not at that levelyet.
But if something hits thatlevel, I'll allow myself to cry.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
If that makes any sense.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
So that's why people who have experienced a lot of
pain or a lot of trauma in theirlife you can't tell them to
just cry, because they probablysee something from the past that
was much more painful than whatthey're currently going through
and they're like well, this isnot as bad as that was, so why
would I cry for this?
You know it's because they'veallowed all of that pain to
happen at that time, so theydon't see it at the same level
(15:58):
anymore.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
yeah, right then what about this for you?
Another curveball then, whatabout?
about empathy?
So sometimes men receive amessage that so men are often
labeled as, like, they'relacking empathy.
Okay, and how that translatesis men don't cry with other
people, like in a sad situation.
(16:20):
Men may not feel the emotion ofthe situation or allow
themselves to feel the emotionof the situation and to be
affected by it.
You know, but a trulyempathetic person might, might
do that.
You know so, like you knowwhere.
So sometimes men receive thismessage well, if you, if you cry
in this situation, you're not aman, you're weak, you know
(16:42):
whatever.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
But then there might be told you're not empathetic if
you, if you don't cry right,right no that's a great question
and it actually brings up areally good point too is that,
you know, because we areprimarily logic focused or want
to make sense of something, thelack of empathy in that specific
scenario can actually behelpful.
(17:04):
Right, it's the message thatwas wrong.
Like, the message was youshouldn't cry.
You know, that doesn't make youa man.
That's not the message that youwant to communicate to someone
else.
What you would communicate isas a man who's trying to show
some empathy hey, I'm here foryou.
What do you need?
How can I help?
Right, that's communicating.
(17:28):
Empathy is I feel what you'refeeling.
But if I feel everything thatyou're feeling right now, I'm
not going to be objective enoughto help you, to provide a
solution, right, or to just sitwith you.
Even Like, if I sit with youand I experience exactly what
you're feeling number one Ican't experience it fully, but I
can show you that I care, whichI think is what matters more to
men.
It's not that you're feelingwhat I'm feeling because we
don't know.
Right, I can put myself in, Ican listen to something that you
(17:50):
share, and it could be theworst thing that I would ever
experience.
I would say, oh man, that wouldbe tough for me to go through,
so I wouldn't be able to feelwhat you're feeling, but I could
show you that I care for youwhile I'm listening to you.
Share right.
Empathy is often confused andsaying that I have more feelings
or I can feel more because I'mfeeling what you're experiencing
, but you lose objectivity withthat if you're feeling only what
(18:12):
the other person is feeling.
So empathy is good momentarily,not good in the long term,
because that will continue toweigh you down.
Imagine if you know working asa counselor.
Imagine if my empathy was allon all the time.
I'd be drained every single daybecause you're feeling
everything that everyone isfeeling.
After hearing stories of trauma, I come home.
(18:34):
I'm not thinking about itanymore because it's a skill
that you have to learn to notstay attached to those things.
So empathy is momentary.
It's in the moment type ofthing where you're just trying
to connect with the person andletting them know that you care.
There's the aspect of sympathy,which is feeling bad for someone
.
Empathy they describe it asfeeling what the other person is
(18:55):
feeling.
So you want to do your best.
The purpose of empathy is tohelp you feel connected to the
person or to help the personfeel that they're connected to
you.
Yeah, um, so I think for us asmen is that when we look at
vulnerability and we're hearingsomeone share, what we want to
communicate to them is I careabout you, not you're weak
(19:15):
because you're you're showing aweakness right now, right, or
you're not a man because you'reshowing weakness.
It's I'm here for you.
What do you need?
How can I help you?
Type of thing okay, I think.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
So you answered one part of the question.
That's like how to respond to aman who is crying, but I'm
talking more so about men who,who, um, can feel the situation,
can feel the pain of anotherperson, and, um, they're.
Those men are often like theymight become teary-eyed, you
know, because they can feel,yeah, the emotion of another
(19:46):
person, they truly do sympathizewith another person, and that
makes them emotional, and thosemen are told they're not being a
man.
What do you have to say aboutthat?
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, I mean.
Well, that one piece is I don'tthink that's the.
That's the message that they'recommunicating, that they're not
being meant because they areempathizing with me.
So are you saying like if youwere to empathize?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I'm saying like outsiders, like, like a imagine,
like a third party looking at asituation may like oh, and
seeing another guy right, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
What would I say?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Well, I mean, I guess I say they're sharing a
brotherly moment there are being.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
How would you, how would you, respond to the critic
is what I'm asking, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
What do you see to the critic?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Like, imagine you see a post on social media and it's
one guy is now, we're nottalking about the cringy, uh
like manhood retreats that wesee online.
Yeah, I know, I could see your,I could see your mind, I go in
there.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about like, um,well, let's say, there's some
guys who are, they're, just morein touch with their emotions.
(21:01):
Okay, they feel things likelike a pastor who tends to cry a
bit more than others, maybe notevery time, but he tends to get
teary-eyed, you know somethinglike that.
And then some critic might saywell, that guy always cries, you
know, whatever it needs totoughen up.
What would you say to that?
Speaker 1 (21:17):
here's the reason why I'm struggling, because I think
there's a part of me and thisis where you know there's the
self awareness piece there's apart of me where I kind of see
that with the guy that would say, man, this guy always cries
Because I think what I've seennot that it's fabricated, I
don't want to say that, but Ithink people try to be
empathetic.
Does that make sense, asopposed to you?
(21:41):
When something bad happens insomeone's life, there's this
natural inclination to want tofeel better about that,
especially if it's someone thatwe care about, right.
But I think for some peoplethey don't feel that sad, but
they try to fabricate it andthey try to make it seem like
they're being so empatheticbecause they're crying with this
brother.
That's where I feel like I getlike a little, I don't know.
(22:04):
It feels disingenuous, right, itdoesn't feel real.
I'm not saying everyone's likethat, but that's the initial.
So I'm trying to understand itfrom that perspective of okay,
when I see it, how do I respond?
I think I respond with okay,that's a little too much for you
to be crying at the same levelthat this guy's crying, to be
with him in that moment.
So it feels sometimes fake tome, but if it's not all the time
(22:27):
and it's kind of okay, I cansee that that deserves some some
level of uh, of sadness andempathy for that person.
But empathy doesn't mean evencrying with the person either,
right.
Empathy doesn't mean mimickingthe other person's emotion or
behavior.
Empathy is you really justtrying to put yourself in their
(22:48):
shoes.
How would I feel if I was intheir shoes, right?
So I think it's that piece,maybe, that the people who cry
with the ones who are crying.
I think they think that they'redeveloping empathy or that
they're showing empathy becausethey're experiencing the same
emotion or they're displayingthe same emotion, but that
doesn't necessarily mean you'rebeing empathetic.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Okay, let me redirect , because I feel, like you're I
think we're kind of talking pasteach other a little bit You're
focused on like the, theone-on-one situation.
I'm sort of thinking about like, uh, like just guys in general,
like maybe they're in a groupand they're talking about
something and they and they theyget a little emotional as
they're talking about it, notnecessarily like a trauma thing,
let's say they're sharing adevotion or they're preaching a
sermon, or they're giving aspeech or whatever you know, or
(23:35):
they're at a birthday party Isaw an old man cry at a birthday
party the other day, you know,and so it's not like every time.
It's maybe like meh, like 5% ofthe time or something, like
something where you don't seethat guy cry all the time, but
it's like a couple of times, youknow, and just some like some
things like get him moreemotional and the critic says,
(23:55):
ah, that guy's a wimp.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Okay, well, I mean the, the, the direct thing to
say to that guy who is saying oh, that guy's a wimp because he's
crying.
It's like, well, I mean, howwould you feel?
I mean, how would you feel ifyou were in those shoes?
What would be a better way torespond to that situation?
To get them to be a little bitmore reflective, because I think
people who are harsh critics Idon't think they have the time
(24:19):
or have taken the time, I'msorry to think about how they
actually feel about certainthings, I mean, on top of them
being wrong and making thatassessment.
It would be a matter of okay,well, how do I get this person
who seems to think that someonecrying is weak I wonder what
would make this person cry?
(24:39):
Like, what would it take foryou to get to that point?
Say nothing, nothing will ever.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
There's something.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I just don't know what that is.
It would be kind of that.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So that was my thought.
I just didn't know.
I was waiting to see if you saidand that's, that's reflection
yeah that that the criticoftentimes is not a deeply
reflective person, because ifthey were to stop and think
about their own life a littlebit, they would realize, oh, I
can be brought to the depths ofto to tears too about certain
(25:10):
things, like some.
There are some things that willbring me to tears, even in
public.
You know, and I think,reflecting on that, that human
beings are this way and thatit's.
It's okay in some instances notevery time like we're talking
about, but it's okay for men andat times to show that kind of
(25:31):
vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah I mean, well, the verse that's used quite
often is what jesus wept, right?
Yeah, like that's one where alot of um christians would say,
well, you know, jesus wept, hewas the manliest man of all,
right, and say why can't you cry?
And again, I think that goesback to people's history, like
I'm thinking now about my dadand I, you know, as a teenager I
saw my dad maybe cry two orthree times and it wasn't
(25:56):
because he necessarily had themachismo about him.
I know that that was somethinghe grew up with, but he didn't
have like a like he didn't havethat, but he was a tougher guy.
But when I hear about his story,like man, how did you go
through all of that?
And you're here, right, so itmakes sense on that scale,
meaning that he experienced somany other negative things
(26:18):
before his life at that timewhen I saw him cry that I would
think to myself, well, it makessense why you wouldn't cry.
I mean, you have so much morepain in your background.
So I think a lot of people whoget to that point, they just get
what's the word dismissive oflife issues, because I've
experienced, or they seethemselves I've experienced much
(26:38):
worse and I didn't cry, type ofthing.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
But I think you know, to your point about maybe your
dad's testimony or some otherguys that have come through a
lot of really hard stuff.
Yeah, Even those guys they'rethey're tough as nails kind of
guys I would dare say was yourdad a Christian?
Yeah, Okay, I would dare say,even though, like some of the
guys that are tough as nailshave come, that have come
(27:03):
through a lot of stuff, If youget them to talk about the Lord
and what the Lord did in theirlife or how the Lord brought
them out of something, you'llyou'll see the tears, you know,
cause that's something that'svery deep in their soul.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah, that's good yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
And if you get them to talk about eternity and
heaven or just the thought ofbeing with the Lord, like you'll
see it, yeah, and so I thinkthat that's that deep reflection
that I'm talking about, wherethere are certain things that
it's okay to tear up about youknow, because they're worth
tearing up about.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Right, right.
And you know.
What's more powerful about thatand I'm sure you've experienced
it too, tim is that think aboutthe deepest, darkest moments
that you've been in your life,and who else was there?
Who else was by your bed whenyou were praying that prayer,
when you were crying your heartout Like no one else was there.
Not that because you didn'thave friends or people who
(27:55):
wanted to be there.
You did have friends, you didhave people there, but it's
those moments when the emotionsjust hit you out of nowhere.
And who else are you gonnashare that with?
You share with the Lord.
That's why it creates so muchmeaning, is that?
Yeah, when I talk about how theLord was there for me during
that time, it means something tome because that was in my
deepest, darkest pain.
He was there right.
(28:16):
So it carries a lot of meaning,and I remember hearing this
phrase too is like the stoic orthe warrior right, the person
who's been through all thesedifferent battles.
They cry in secret or they cryin their times alone.
For the Christian, I think it'sdifferent with the
non-Christian, because theChristian, when they are alone,
they're actually not, becausethey're praying to the Lord, so
(28:38):
they're crying their heart outbefore the Lord, so that creates
that intimate, closerelationship with the Lord, and
I don't know what it would looklike for a non-Christian.
I think they experienced thatloneliness at a different level
is that they're crying tothemselves.
They don't have anyone.
Maybe sometimes the Lord evenuses that to Lord I don't have
anyone here.
If you're real, you know, meetme here where I am right, type
(29:00):
of thing.
But I do see that it's not thatthey don't.
Nothing makes them tear or cryor experience any level of pain
is that there's.
No, they don't see a benefit tosharing that pain with other
people because it's their ownpain and it means something to
them, even for the Christian too.
Right, their pain in theirrelationship with the Lord means
(29:21):
something, is something someaningful between them and the
Lord that why would I want toshare that with other people,
unless they directly ask?
So when people do ask aboutyour life and they get involved
in that, then they get to be apart of that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
And not every believer is entitled to that
information.
That's something that I thinkpeople need to understand.
It's like if your brother orsister doesn't want to share
those things with you, it's notbecause they don't they're a bad
Christian or they can't bevulnerable, it's just you may
not have a right to thatinformation or that part of
their story.
And that's there's.
(29:54):
That's okay, like let them be,you know.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
That's a good point too.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
I think that's a pressure.
I think in the Christiancollege setting is like there's
all this pressure to share,share, share and like share our
stories and everything and likesome people like those, those
things that are so deeplyintimate, like a walk with the
Lord, some things you walk withthe Lord with for years.
No one else needs to know aboutthat.
(30:20):
You know and no one has theright to know.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Maybe it's a better way to put it.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
You can share.
You can share if you want, butno one someone doesn't have a
right to know, just because theyask, yeah, yeah, there's
pressure on both sides.
On one side, hey, be vulnerable.
On the other side is well, Idon't want to have to share
everything with you if I don'tsee you as a close person to me
yeah, um, that's a good pointyeah, um, that's probably a good
place to yeah, yeah, let meclose up here with with with
(30:45):
finding this balance of okay.
So what?
How do you actually share?
How do you become vulnerablewith other people?
Well, first it's assess thecontext and consider the
dynamics of the relationship tothe person that you're going to
be vulnerable with.
I do believe, and I strongly dobelieve, this If you have just
one person, like one person, inyour life that you're able to
share your heart with, that'smore than enough.
(31:06):
Okay, and I say that becauseit's hard to create strong, safe
, healthy relationships withother men.
But when you have that, I meanthat's a goal line, right.
Like you want to use that.
That's the person you can bearone another, do all the one
another's with right.
You call each other out, yousupport each other, you comfort
(31:28):
each other.
Like, you need at least oneperson.
If you have more great right,but have at least one person
that you can be fully open andtransparent with and practice it
.
You know you're usually, whenyou're trying to grow a bigger
circle, you know maybe three tofive people that you want to
have in that circle group testthe waters.
(31:48):
That's part of vulnerability toois, again, you're being
selective about the informationthat you're sharing to see how
are people receiving it.
Some people care, some peopledon't, and I think it was Dr
Jordan Peterson who shared this.
He said don't give your time topeople who don't show an
interest in your life.
Sometimes you share somethingand it's just kind of waved off,
or oh okay, cool, or they don'tshow an interest in your life.
Something you share, somethingis just kind of waved off or oh
okay, cool, or they don't checkup on it again or something like
(32:09):
that.
Okay, Just move on.
You don't need to worry aboutthat, Just move on.
But if you have one person,that's more than enough.
Choose safe environments forthese discussions and be
discerning about the people withwhom you share this information
with.
A lot of guys think ofinformation when they're sharing
as it's going to be usedagainst me Absolutely Right.
So sometimes it is Right,exactly so.
(32:32):
That's it makes sense whythey're guarded.
So, when you share yourinformation, you're always
assessing who are the people inyour life, what, what is the
history of that relationship,that you say this person is a
trustworthy person?
Um, who was it that shared it?
I don't remember who, where Isaw this or who I heard it from,
but it was kind of like.
The people that you choose toshare information with are the
(32:54):
people that you're willing to goto war with, right, that you
know they're going to be rightby your side at all times, so
kind of like a brother, whetherit be ministry, whether it be
serving in another capacity,whatever the case.
Case, those are the people thatyou fully trust because your
life depends on it.
Right, and lastly, foster asense of self-compassion and
(33:15):
emotional intelligence.
Again, self-compassion is theidea of suffering with the self.
Um, the, I think the latin rootis is.
Is that a compassion, which?
Which means to suffer, tosuffer with and suffer with that
part of yourself that's hurting, right, if no one was there for
you during the time that youwere hurting, learn how does how
(33:36):
does God play a role in that?
This is where attachment theorycomes into play.
How does God play a role inthat part of your life where you
were suffering the most?
What role did he play?
He's probably the secureattachment figure in that time
where you were suffering themost.
What role did he play?
He was probably the secureattachment figure in that time.
And emotional intelligence isexperience the emotion, identify
the emotion, regulate theemotion.
That's all it is.
So, if you're feeling angry, ifyou're feeling frustrated, if
(33:57):
you're feeling depressed,anxious, whatever the case is,
once you locate it, identify itand then regulate it.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
And that will help with finding this balance of
vulnerability Sounds good.
Yeah, good job, man.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Good job.
Yeah, all right, we'll see younext time.
See you next time.
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