Ep. 40 - How to Navigate LGBT Issues Using Compassion and a Biblical Lens w/ Cassian Bellino - Psych and Theo Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Well, all right, everyone, welcome back to the
Psych and Theo podcast, sam, butTim is not here.
This is actually a recordingthat I'm going to present to you
guys today of an interview thatTim did with a friend of ours.
Her name is Cassian Bellino.
She has a podcast calledbiblically speaking and she

(00:25):
basically invites scholars frombible scholars onto her podcast
and she has some questions thatcurious christians have about
the bible.
So we've been on her show.
She she's uh, come on ours, Ithink.
I'm not sure about that.
I'll have to think we've doneso many different episodes
together, it's kind of gettingmixed up there.

(00:45):
But yeah, we will be presentingthat show for you guys today.
It was a really good discussion.
My buddy, tim, did a great jobexplaining the different issues
that show up when you're talkingabout LGBT issues.
How does a Christian respond topeople who are supportive of
LGBT concerns, who want toadhere to God's word and also

(01:08):
learn how to love those in theLGBT community?
Well, and kind of finding thatbalance where you don't
compromise truth but you canstill be a Christ-like
representative to those aroundyou.
So again, that's a really goodepisode.
I hope you guys enjoy it.
So, again, that's a really goodepisode.

(01:39):
I hope you guys enjoy it.
Before I shift over into thatepisode, remember to download
the podcast, to share thepodcast, to give us a rating, a
review, let us know actuallybeen due to the suggestions that
you guys have made.
So we really appreciate that.
It shows the level ofengagement from your part and we
also enjoy we just enjoytalking about things that are
interesting to you.
Tim and I have our own ideasabout how we, what kind of
topics we want to bring up.
So those are the things thatyou guys are receiving.

(02:01):
But, again, if you areinterested in a topic where you
want to see where there's acultural issue and you want to
see what the Bible has to sayabout it and what's the
psychological or counseling viewon a particular issue that's
happening in our culture, feelfree to send us a message
through Instagram or you canemail us at psychandtheo at

(02:23):
gmailcom.
So, without further ado, enjoythis great interview with my
buddy, tim.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Okay, hello, hello.
Welcome everybody to BiblicallySpeaking.
My name is Cassian Bellino andI'm your host, and today I'm
honored to welcome a new guest,dr Tim Yance.
We didn't go over your bio, butI did bring up one of your
Standing for Freedom intros and,according to the Internet, you
are an adjunct professor atLiberty University.

(02:50):
You teach courses in ethics,theology, apologetics and
worldview.
You have a master's of divinityfrom Liberty Baptist Theology
Seminary and a PhD in theologystudies on Christian ethics from
South.
I literally had to take abreath like this is so many
credentials from SoutheasternBaptist Theological Seminary.
So you have a lot ofspecialties and you also are a

(03:11):
chaplain.
You also served as a chaplainassistant for the US Army
National Guard.
You're a writer, you're acontributor and you're also a
podcast host, which is how wegot connected through.
Psych and Theo, because SamLanda reached out to me and came
on some one of my lives andhe's actually going to be on a
podcast episode coming up, butglad to be connected to him.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, yeah, it's great, great to be here.
Yeah, the brand new babypodcast called psych and theo,
me and sam tackling culturalissues from the perspective of
psychology and theology together.
So I'm the theologian, he's theprofessional mental health or
mental health professional, Ishould say.
And so we'll.
We tackle issues together fromthose two angles.
So we, we cover all kinds ofdifferent issues.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
That's amazing.
I sometimes wish we had that inchurch of like somebody to be
like.
This is your attachment theoryto Jesus, and this is what
scripture says about it.
Like that would be phenomenal.

Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, I mean, well, that's one of the one of the
episode topics that we we didearly on, was we?
Uh we ask a question is it asin to go to therapy?
Cause a lot of people thinkthat the only form of counseling
that's right is quote unquotebiblical counseling or what's
called new thetic counseling,and Sam can kind of talk about
that when he comes on and doeshis episode.

(04:21):
I'm sure he'll get into that alittle bit.
But yeah, we tackle that issuebecause a lot of Christians,
there's a lot ofmisunderstanding about what
counseling is and what mentalhealth is.
Some people tend toover-spiritualize it all and
some people tend to just ignorethe spiritual completely, and so
we ignore neither.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
We cover all the bases, so when did you guys
start?

Speaker 3 (04:42):
that Our first episode released in the spring.
I think we're up to like 20 or21 episodes now and we try to
release once a week.
We're taking a little breakright now just because of our
schedules not lining up.
We've both been doing a lot oftraveling but we're about to
start season two coming up andseason two is starting with a
bang.
We're going to be blowing upthe myth of the alpha male.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
You teased that in one of the episodes and I was
like where is that?
Where is that it's?

Speaker 3 (05:12):
coming, it's coming.
Yeah, we're going to take onthis alpha beta paradigm that
the manosphere says men have tobe an alpha and no one wants to
be a beta.
No one wants to be a betawhatsoever.
You can't be a beta, that's theworst thing ever.
So we're just going to blow upthat paradigm, and then we
actually are interviewing someother men and we're calling this
gentle dangerous men, men whomodel what it means to live for

(05:32):
Christ but are quite dangerousin themselves, and so it's a
series of interviews that we'redoing on that topic.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
Or is it just random guys off the street you're
pulling in or like specific yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
We see it, hey, you, hey, you want to be in it on the
podcast let's?
It's like dumb and dumber.
You've seen dumb and dumberwhen they're driving down the
road.
It's like, hey, there's somepeople pick them up yeah, I
can't wait to hear that.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
That's gonna be great yeah first.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
The first two are military veterans.
One is an associate dean hereat liberty university where I
work, and then another anotheris a personal friend of ours
who's a former Marine andinvolved in politics, and both
those guys are like really kind,gentle people.
You wouldn't guess that they'redeadly killers from the outside
.
And then another one that we're.

(06:13):
I was supposed to talk to himyesterday but we had to cancel
or postpone it, so I'll get tohim later.
But he's the founder of aorphan ministry in a country
that I won't name because it's aclosed country.
But he has endured lots ofpersecution and even threats and
assassination attempts on hislife.
But his work is adoptinghundreds or tens of thousands of

(06:35):
orphans off the street andtraining a lot of them those who
want to be trained in the Bible, and then commissioning them as
pastors to go out and plantchurches as well.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
So that's been this lifelong ministry.

Speaker 3 (06:46):
So he's a gentle, he's a giant, but he is quite
dangerous in his own respect.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
So yeah, they all sound pretty alpha to me.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they don't beat their chest.
You know the the manospheresays the alpha has to be, you
know, like a Chad King, if youknow those, if you're familiar
with those terms.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, I think of a few.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
That's exciting.
I can't wait to hear it when itcomes out.
When does season two start?

Speaker 3 (07:10):
You know I'm going to .
I'm going to punt and defer toSam on that Cause.
Sam is running the technicals.
I think we I should know this.
I should be ready for thesequestions, but I'm not.
I'm such an amateur when itcomes to podcasting.
So it'll be out in a couple ofweeks, I think.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Okay, you guys are ahead of me to me.
I'm like it's just a reallylong season one.
I'm just going to keep going.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
It's a never ending story.
It just keeps going.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, just keep going .
I think we're on episode 25.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
It's like Grey's Anatomy, like it's just going
and going, like 15 seasons orsomething.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Exactly.
Yeah, but it's episodes.
It's just so long.
This topic is super sensitive,so I just want to come out of
the gate right away and talkabout it in a sensitive matter
that it's probably not safe foryounger ears.
If you do listen to thispodcast, as a family with
children around, we're going tobe talking about some pretty
graphic Bible verses and justmore sensitive topics on the

(08:01):
topic of same-sex attraction andhomosexuality from the biblical
perspective.
But I think, tim, you did areally good job in the episode
at Psychanthea when you talkedabout this, that you're not
trying to talk about this in ajudgmental or a negative way.
You're simply just reflectingon the idea of homosexuality and
what the Bible says about it,and in no way, shape or form is

(08:24):
this supposed to be a shamefulor finger pointing episode of
who is right and who is wrong.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, when Sam and I were dealing with that subject.
One thing that's reallyimportant, and I think everyone
needs to put this into practice,but it's something that was
ingrained in me going through mystudies in apologetics, which
is a defense of the Christianfaith.
Through my studies inapologetics, which is a defense
of the Christian faith any sortof philosophy classes you're
trained to steel man the otherargument.

(08:49):
So that way you're not.
The opposite of.
That is a straw man, whereyou're setting up a weak version
of your opponent's argument andso you can easily knock it down
and maybe sell some books.
But you can easily get exposedif someone comes along and says,
hey, that's not what weactually believe and you are
misrepresenting our argument.
So you want to do the oppositeof that.
You want to steel man anotheryour opponent's argument.

(09:10):
So that way you present them inthe strongest, best and most
charitable light possible andthen refute that in a way that's
professional, factual and thatdoesn't alienate them.
We can get into some of theissues of like is it hateful
just to disagree with someone?
That comes up in this topic alot.
But I would say no, weshouldn't be conflating

(09:33):
disagreement with hate.
Those are two different things.
But yeah, we can disagreerespectfully and be firm in our
positions and be informed, butit's important to be calm, cool
and measured when we do.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm not going to lie.
I'm kind of scared to talkabout this topic, but with
somebody who is so experiencedand eloquent in the topic, of
course we had to have theconversation.
I'm not going to gerrymanderaround different scriptures in
the Bible just because some aremore sensitive than others.
I don't think the Bible isreally here to keep us content.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yeah, gerrymandering, that's a good word, thank you.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
Topic these days old and unsure how to love my
friends that you know supportsame sex, same sex attraction,

(10:27):
who might be homosexual.
Obviously I love them.
Obviously I want what's bestfor them, but I also want to
abide in the Bible.
I want to be set apart.
So am I wrong?
How do I love them?
I don't want them to be wrong,but I also want us all to be
encouraged.
But I also I I'm spiraling, youknow, like, how do you go about
this?

Speaker 3 (10:44):
So this is the way I frame it to my students, and
what I like to do with mystudents is I like to give them
contemporary stories or newsstories, anything that's
happening in their world, to say, hey look, you're going to be
dealing with this and so youneed to be ready.

(11:05):
Our culture is moving in such away that these are becoming
celebratory in our culture.
You notice that we don'ttypically talk like in podcasts
and Christian conferences orwhatever.
We're not dedicating a lot oftime to alcoholism or drug
addiction, like, is it wrong tobe addicted to drugs or is it

(11:27):
wrong to be an alcoholic?
We kind of know those aredestructive to us.
Our culture isn't celebratingthat as like good, but our
culture is celebrating this formof sexuality as good.
It's calling it good, it'scalling it brave and courageous
and virtuous and things likethat.
And so, because the culture hasshifted, we now must address
what the culture is saying asChristians, because we're called

(11:48):
to be salt and light in theculture.
So we need to figure out how todo that in a way that is
judicious and prudent.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
I think there's a lot of trauma embedded within that
community and I think thattrauma is a very complicated
topic and it's hard to controlyourself when you feel hurt or
abused or anything.
But I think I'm more so curiouswhen it's in the Bible.
It feels like homosexuality,Like why does it feel worse than
sex before marriage?
Like why, maybe biblically, weare in church and we're like

(12:19):
don't have sex before marriagebut if you're gay you're like
not even allowed on the frontdoors, it feels.
I'm not saying that's the rule,I'm just saying we've heard of
it.
We've had a friend thathappened to.
They feel unwelcome.
But I would say a lot of peoplehave had sex before marriage
and they still go to church,they still make friends, they
still find a place.
So is there a biblical basisfor that?

Speaker 3 (12:36):
Sort of you know yes and no.
There's the way that someChristians talk about this, way
that some Christians talk aboutthis, I think, lacks clarity,
and so I think maybe we can getinto this, into the episode how
all sin is sin.
All sin alienates us from God,from lying to all the way to
murder and everything in between.
All sin separates us from God.

(12:56):
However, the Bible does treatsome forms of sin in a different
way, either because of how theystart or because of the
consequences that follow fromthem, even the natural
consequences.
So here's an example.
Let's say, a young person who'skind of being dishonest and
being kind of an unruly youngperson.

(13:17):
You're supposed to disciplinethem.
That's a typical thing forteenagers to kind of be that way
.
There's a known.
That's a typical thing forteenagers to kind of be that way
, but something like murder.
Okay, that's a much more severething that the bible speaks of,
because there's there's seriousmoral violations there and
serious consequences that followfrom that right yeah, so, um,

(13:42):
there's there seems to be inscripture scale where someone
can slide and get into worse andworse forms of sin, to the
point where it completelydestroys their life.
I mean, james talks about this,that there's sins that lead to
death and destruction and thatwe need to turn our brothers and
sisters away from those things.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
That's a good way to look at it.
Yeah, so would you say.
Then with sex before marriage,the sliding is single motherhood
and a child, like that's kindof the next step.
Versus with same-sex attraction.
It could become more perverseVersus.
Is that what you're trying tosay here?

Speaker 3 (14:21):
Okay, yeah, with the difference between something
like, like a, heterosexualrelations before marriage versus
, uh, something likehomosexuality, this the bible,
seems, still treats them bothpretty, pretty harshly in the
sense that they're both reallysevere sins.
In general, sexual sinthroughout the bible is is a
pretty serious matter becauseit's part of like sex is a

(14:42):
really, really important part ofhuman nature.
Uh, and it helps like uh, it'spart of like sex is a really,
really important part of humannature.
And it helps like it's reservedfor the marriage covenant
between the man and the womanand we can kind of get into like
what's the?
This is how I kind of usuallystart.
This subject is, before we talkabout like what's wrong, we
need to look at what the Biblesays is right or the picture of
sexuality that the Bible paints.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
But let's get into it .

Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, yeah, but in terms of like, which of those
sins is worse?
I think that the scriptureswould say that both of them are
pretty severe, that if we'rewondering which one is worse,
we're probably starting out withthe wrong question.
You know, I'm not saying you'restarting out with the wrong
question, but if Christians arelike, well, that one's worse
than this one, they're bothpretty severe sins.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
That's really interesting.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
Okay, yeah, then what does?

Speaker 2 (15:28):
the Bible say is good , then let's get into that.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
Yeah, so typically on this subject, if we're talking
with Christians and there's someChristians who they love the
Lord but they are maybewondering does the Bible
actually prohibit same-sexromantic relationships as we see
in our culture today?
Does the Bible actually callitsame-sex romantic relationships
as we see in our culture today?
Does the Bible actually callthat sin?
So some Christians are reallywondering that they hear what

(15:51):
seem like persuasive argumentsto that effect.
So we need to deal with howdoes the Bible say that this is
actually sin?
Okay, what's helpful first isto see what the Bible says about
sex in general, how the Bibleportrays and frames the sexual
relationship between humanbeings and universally.
Throughout the scriptures, frombeginning to end, sex is
portrayed as a loving, physicalunion between a man and a woman.

(16:15):
In marriage.
It's a heterosexual unionbetween a man and a woman.
I won't get into the polygamyissue because there's instances
of polygamy in the scriptures.
We don't have to get into thatissue.
But at the bare minimum, ifwe're just making a minimum case
, the Bible reserves sex for theheterosexual marriage, union
between the man and woman, andmarriage.
The reasons in marriage isbecause marriage is a covenant

(16:38):
and a commitment that issupposed to model God's
relationship to humanity and, aswe see in the New Testament,
christ's relationship to hischurch.
So there's this imagery goingon in scripture where, as in
heaven, so on earth, the thingsin earth are supposed to mirror
the things in heaven, andmarriage is one of those
pictures of the man and thewoman mirror Christ and his
church on earth.

(16:59):
But from the beginning andJesus says this from the
beginning in Genesis 1 and 2, aman leaves his father and his
mother and is joined to his wifeand the two of them become one,
and that is the picture that wesee throughout scripture.
So anything sexual relationshipoutside of that is considered
sin.
It's considered outside of whatthe Bible would say is good.

(17:19):
That includes heterosexualrelationships outside of
marriage.
That includes bestiality,includes homosexuality.
That includes lust andpornography.
It includes only fans.
That's a whole other topicthat's come up in our culture
now.
Anything like that, any form ofsexuality outside of the
marriage union, is the Biblesays, is wrong and we're not

(17:41):
supposed to do it Okay.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
So it kind of isolates.
It's not just abouthomosexuality, it's really just
the marriage covenant, andthat's where you end and where
you begin, and there's notreally anything else that you
need to focus on.
But I was curious.
I mean, if we're looking atwhat's natural and I think you
know what's natural is a man anda woman our reproductive organs
are literally made for eachother what can we do?
Um, like instances of likehomosexuality and like animals?

(18:06):
you know where we see it like inthe natural world that isn't
influenced by culture orwhatever it might be?
Is that something where we'relike, look, god was actually
lying and I was wrong?
Or is that something where it'sjust like that's a completely
set of different set of rulesand we can't apply that to the
human nature yeah, I would.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
That's exactly what you just said there.
It's a non-sequitur, which meansit doesn't follow If someone
points to the animal kingdom andsays look, animals do this,
therefore it's okay for humans,that's a non-sequitur.
In the ethics world we callthis the naturalistic fallacy,
because it's pointing to natureand saying something is this way
, therefore it ought to be.

(18:45):
It's called the is oughtfallacy or the naturalistic
fallacy, so it's sayingsomething is this way, therefore
it ought to be this way.
But we can see what's wrongthere, because there's all kinds
of things that happen in naturethat ought not to be In the
animal kingdom.
There's predation in nature.
Animals prey on one another,they kill one another, animals
sexually abuse one another andwe would say, well, we probably

(19:07):
shouldn't do that right.
So there's all kinds of thingsthat animals do that we would
not apply to ourselves.
We have, at least at the bareminimum we have moral
inclinations and intuitions thatlead us to think these things
are wrong.
Like sexual abuse is wrong,sexual coercion is wrong.
Animals don't seem to mind whenthey do those things.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
Murder is wrong.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
Just killing wantonly .
Cannibalism, like animals eateach other.
So there's all kinds of thingsthat happen in nature that we do
not apply to ourselves.
Now someone might say, well,it's just evolutionary biology
and evolutionary ethics, wedon't have to get into it.
We're refuting evolutionarypsychology, I should say, and

(19:48):
morality.
But that's something that inthe ethics world we deal with
and the Christian apologeticsworld is where does morality
come from?
But at the bare minimum, ifsomeone is making a case saying
look at nature, there's same-sexrelationships in nature.
Therefore, we're natural beingstoo.
Why can't we have it this way?
Well, that's a non-sequitur.

(20:09):
That's not a valid argument onits face okay, thanks for
addressing that.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Getting back to the bible, you kind of mentioned
that, like, the biblicaldepiction of a marriage is two
people that are loving, and Iwould argue that a lot of people
today who are in same-sexrelationships love each other,
they're happy, they're gentlewith one another.
How does I mean?
Is there a difference betweenhow same-sex relationships and

(20:34):
marriages, how they are depictedtoday and what people are
defending passionately becausethey they love their husband or
wife?
Is that the same case as it wasbiblically?
Was it just written at adifferent time and it was a
different culture?
I don't know.
Is it apples?
to apples is what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
That's the key objection that you're bringing
up.
This is the number one way thatlet's just say like a pro LGBT
position, or maybe I'll say agay Christian position, would be
because there are organizationsthat claim to be Christian and
pro-LGBT or gay, like gayChristians will make these kinds

(21:12):
of arguments.
But that's the number oneobjection.
If I were to argue and say theBible says this kind of sexual
relationship is wrong, theywould say well, it's apples and
oranges, you're comparing.
The Bible's talking about somesort of sexual relationship
that's not equivalent to what wesee in our culture today.
So what I have to do now, againto steel man the argument, is

(21:34):
to address that specificargument head on and we need to
look at the backgroundliterature in the Bible to
really figure out is the samesex relationships that the Bible
is addressing?
Are they really that differentthan what the culture is
celebrating today?
And I would say no, they're notactually that different.
There are different forms ofthe Bible addresses, but what's

(21:56):
included in that are theromantic relationships between
same-sex couples, even today.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
Let's get into it.
I mean, I feel like in Genesiswe kind of see it right off the
bat as far as like as early asSodom and Gomorrah and with the
angels that tried, you know,having lots of children and that
, or his guests, sorry, his uh,the angels that visited him.
But even and I was listening toyour episode with uh Theo and
Syke and you guys talk about theNephilim.

(22:21):
So I'm really, I'm really eagerto jump into the scripture here
, starting chronologically inGenesis.
So what scripture do you seethat kind of supports that
biblically, the context ofsame-sex relationships is very
different from what we see todayand how there's, I guess, harm
in it.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yeah Well, podcast rule number one if you mentioned
Nephilim, you're going to get a20% bump in your viewership.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
The SEO goes off.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
Just put it in the description title, like Nephilim
question mark, and you'll getit All right.
So yeah, chronologically, Iwant to open up by saying I'm
not a Hebrew scholar, I'm aphilosopher and an ethicist by
training.
By saying I'm not a Hebrewscholar, I'm a philosopher and
an ethicist by training.
But, as my teachers taught me,ethicists, we have to be versant

(23:11):
in a lot of different subjectsand we have to sometimes rely on
guys who are deeper authoritieson those subjects than we are,
but we have to be really versantin a lot of different things.
So I'll say that by saying, ifthere's a Hebrew scholar or a
Greek scholar who's listening,they're going to know a little
bit more about Greek syntax orHebrew root words than I would,
but I might even know more aboutthis topic than they do.

(23:32):
So, okay, so we'll just leaveit at that.
So, as we walk through Genesis,I think it's important for our
readers, to our readers, ourlisteners, to remember that
Genesis.
As a conservative evangelical, Itake the view that Genesis was
written by a single author,maybe with later editors kind of
tidying things up, but I takethe view that Moses wrote the

(23:53):
Pentateuch, the first five booksof the Bible.
That's not a controversial view.
Conservative evangelicalscholars hold that view and it
can be defended.
With that in mind, then, itdoes help to understand the
connection between the storiesin Genesis, the law in Leviticus
and in Deuteronomy and then howthat later connects to the
other stories in the Bible thattalk about these kind of sexual

(24:17):
issues.
So right away, chronologically,Genesis 1 and 2 opens up.
Man and woman are created.
That's the first marriage union.
That's the famous passage whereit says a man shall leave his
father and his mother and shallbe joined to his wife and the
two shall become one flesh andthey become the parents of all
living human beings.
We see the first instance of aviolation of that sexual

(24:44):
boundary in Genesis 6.
Now I take the supernaturalview of Genesis 6, so here's the
Nephilim subject.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
What do you mean by supernatural Like, not literal?

Speaker 3 (24:54):
No.
So there's a natural view ofGenesis 6, which is sometimes
called the Sethite view, thatthe sons of God in Genesis 6
refer to the line of Seth andthe daughters of men refer to
the line of Cain.
Sons of God in Genesis sixrefer to the line of Seth and
the daughters of men refer tothe line of Cain.
And so what happened?
The sin.
There was an ungodly mixing ofrighteous people and unrighteous
people, sort of like beingunequally yoked together.

(25:14):
I don't think that.
I don't think that makes muchsense given the context.
There's a scholar by the name ofMichael Heiser he's passed away
now, but he's he's creditedwith really putting forward a
really good defense of thesupernatural view, which is that
the sons of God in Genesis 6, 1through 4 are angelic beings

(25:35):
that break, they cross over andthey transgress a boundary and
engage in some sort of sexualrelationship with human women,
and from that come the Nephilimin some way.
Now there's some views of likewere they already fallen angels
that possessed human men andthen they copulated with women

(25:56):
and that's how it happened?
Or did these angels take oncorporeal form, like actual body
form, and do this?
There's some theories aboutthat, but that's the first
instance of the violation of thesexual boundary.
Before that, you see someinstances like I think it's who
is it?
Lamech, one of the sons of Cain, takes two wives.
So you see, that's the firstinstance of polygamy that occurs

(26:20):
.
So Genesis 6 is the first kindof real, serious sexual
violation and that's a preludeto the flood.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
After the flood, I'm sorry when you're talking about
like the first sexual violation,maybe like was there not
homosexuality?
Or just saying just like theopen.

Speaker 3 (26:37):
What's recorded, yeah , Before that there's no mention
of like a serious liketransgression sexual
transgression, just the sexualtransgression and the just
sexual transgression.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
It's just sex openly well it's.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
I wouldn't say that it's just it's.
It's not genesis.
One through five doesn't isn'taddressing the sexual issues yet
I see yeah okay.
So it's just I see.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
So it's just saying this is the first time that
inappropriate unions betweenbeings because it's from angels
that crossed over versus thesame species.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
Yeah, yeah, okay, at least that's the first.
It's the first mention, likethe first problem.
Okay, the story.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Let's say that makes it way less like clickbaity, in
my opinion.
I feel like whenever I like seeabout the Nephilim online, it's
like giants that are likeravaging women and it's like
that's not at all what you justsaid.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
Well, actually that follows.
The Nephilim are the.
I should have kept going.
So the Nephilim?
In the supernatural view, theNephilim are the offspring of
this union.
And they are.
The scriptures call them.
They were the mighty men ofrenown, and so these were these
mythical or ancient guys whowere basically destroying the
earth.

(27:49):
But the scriptures don't.
What's the word I'm looking for?
They don't exonerate humanbeings from this.
Like this rebellion that takesplace is a rebellion of both
human and angelic rebellion.
So because God says in Genesis6, 5, all human flesh is
corrupted in this, but Noah,genesis 6, 8, but Noah finds
grace in the eyes of the Lord.

(28:11):
So it was a pretty bad situationand so anytime you see, like an
angelic rebellion in scripture,there's always a human side to
it as well.
So humans are not exoneratedfrom.
We can't just blame everythingon the devil, basically Like
we're guilty too of these things.
So anyway, I digress, but it'simportant to kind of keep this
in mind, keep that story in mind, because later on, after the

(28:33):
flood Ham, he does somethingvery bad to his father, noah.
The passage says he uncoversNoah's nakedness and that could.
That verse always confused mewas like yeah, aren't they?

Speaker 2 (28:46):
like related.
What's wrong with, like seeingyour brother or dad undressed?

Speaker 3 (28:50):
yeah, so that's a, that's.
It's a hebrew euphemism, theuncover uncovering one's
nakedness is a is a euphemism.
Now there's two prominenttheories to that passage.
One one theory is that ham, hebasically has incestuous
relationships with his mother,and that's where Cain, his son
Cain or Canaan, comes from, andthat's why Noah curses Canaan.

(29:11):
Or the other one.
The other prominent theory isthat Ham, actually because
Noah's passed out drunk and Hamactually has he basically
sexually abuses his own father.
And you might be wondering whywould someone do that?
Well, this is something that inthe ancient Near East cultures,
to do something like that wouldbe basically to exert dominance

(29:34):
and to say I'm now the one incharge.
Yeah, the scriptures don't shyaway from these things.
They speak in euphemisms, butthey're painting a picture
that's these things.
They speak in euphemisms, butthey're painting a picture
that's.
This is how bad things get.
You know, at times, like weknow the story of Lot and his
daughters after Sodom andGomorrah, you know that these
things can happen.
The scriptures don't ignorethem.

(29:56):
So Ham does something reallywrong, and so there's.
I think the stronger theory isthat Ham actually sexually
abuses Noah because Versus justseeing him naked.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
It sounds like that's the only solution, if that's a
Hebrew euphemism.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
Well, it's, either he sexually abuses his father or
he has some sort ofrelationships with his own
mother.
It basically takes Noah's wife.
So he's exerting some sort ofdominance over Noah, because,
again, noah has three sons andHam wants to be in charge.
So that's what part of Ham'scurse?
And the curse of Canaan is thathe will serve the other

(30:33):
brothers.
So he's going to be the lowest.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, I mean, if there's only like five people
left on earth, I can imagine thestakes are pretty high, yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:41):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think the stronger theoryis that he actually does, uh,
abuse.
Noah, because the other twosons are mortified by what's
happened and they, they coverover, you know, his, their
father.
They put a blanket over him andcover him up and kind of take
care of him until he wakes upand realizes what happened.
But yeah, it's pretty dark story.
So fast forwarding once we getthe story of salem and gamora

(31:03):
and that's the really famousproof text that people will
point to for homosexuality.
So we've come full circle now.
Okay, yeah, and we're like whatare we 35 minutes in?
We're already just gettingstarted.
I'm sorry, I'm a teacher andI'm long winded.
So when you get to the story ofSodom and Gomorrah, the story
goes that three angels or divinebeings come and visit Abraham.

(31:25):
One of them is Yahweh in bodilyform, the other two are angels
in bodily form.
Yahweh sends those two angelson ahead to go to Sodom and
Gomorrah and he's going to judgethe city.
Once they get to the city theyare going to sleep in the middle
of the city and they know Lotis there.
Abraham's nephew Lot sees themand he recognizes them as
they're coming into the city.

(31:46):
He knows that there's and so hesays you can't stay in the
middle of the city, this is toodangerous, Come stay with me in
my house.
And the story goes that the menof Sodom, they come to Lot's
house and they say, hey, who arethese two guys with you?
Who are these two men?
So that is kind of a clue thatthese angels are appearing like
men, like they see them as men.
That's like bring them out hereso we can know them and that's

(32:08):
another euphemism for know themsexually.
And this seems to be a prettyclear indication of sexual
dominance.
They were basically going torape these two angels, Whether
they knew they were angels ornot, I don know.
But but again, this is.
There's a.
There seems to be some sort ofallusion here to genesis 6 in
some way.
But lots like don't do thisdetestable thing I just have a

(32:31):
quick question.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, like was, and just trying to understand the
context of it here, was same-sexalways um a very aggressive,
like power dominance type ofrelationship or was like for me,
sodom and gomorrah was the typeof city where it was like very
open and like kind of like today, like celebratory, enjoying,
pleasurable, hedonistic.

(32:52):
Is that the vibe of sodom andgomorrah or was it like I only
had a same-sex relation in theinstance of putting dominance on
another?

Speaker 3 (33:00):
so this is where you know I'm gonna.
I'm gonna summarize, but I willdefer to my Hebrew scholar
brothers on this one.
They're ancient Near Eastscholars but essentially it
wasn't like the relationships wewould think of today, because
it was a shameful thing for aman to take on the quote.
Unquote feminine role.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
If you know what I mean.
It wasn't accepted in thatsociety at that time.

Speaker 3 (33:26):
Yeah, it was very detestable and gross Interesting
.
They had terms for people likethat.
Now, even in Assyrian culturethere were people that performed
that role in these sort ofrelationships, but it was not
seen as something honorable.
I see, Basically you didn'twant to, you didn't want to be
that thing.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Yeah, it was something that they like served
as, but it wasn't like an openlyproud position in the
relationship.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
And in the Hebrew and the Hebrew world.
I guess this is true in theancient Near East as well.
To treat a man as though he isa woman was a was a bad thing
yeah, the as though he is awoman was a bad thing.
Yeah, the scriptures paint thisas so.
In the story of Lot and thesetwo angels, lot offers up his
daughters.
Look at that through 21stcentury eyes.
We're like how could you dothat?

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
But in the moral calculus of Lot in the ancient
Near East, all sexual violencewas wrong to the people of God.
The scriptures don't paintsexual violence in any way as
good wrong to the people of God.
Like the scriptures don't paintsexual violence in any way as
good, but in lots of moralcalculus it was worse for them
to treat men as women, likethat's to commit sexual violence
in that way to a man, tobasically I'm sorry for the

(34:40):
graphic language, but topenetrate for one man, to
penetrate sexually, penetrateanother man, to treat him as
though he were a woman, was thescriptures call that detestable
thing.
So Lot was essentially sayinglook, here's two women.
Like if you're going to do this, here's two women.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
I see yeah.
That's the calculus, it's thelesser of two evils.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, Essentially the lesser of two evils is what Lot
is trying to get them to see.
But they say, no, give us thesetwo guys.
And then it turns into thiswhole struggle.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
And then angels get.
So it wasn't like a lust typeof thing, it was a power
struggle type of thing.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
It seemed to be common in Sodom and Gomorrah to
do this to strangers that wouldcome into the town strangers
that would come into the town.
So what I want to caution myconservative evangelical
brothers and sisters against isjust pointing to Sodom and
Gomorrah as though that's proofthat homosexuality is seen as
sin in the scriptures.
It certainly is suggesting that, but we need more to our

(35:40):
argument than just that, if youknow what I mean, because the
pro-LGBT side will point to thatstory and say, well, that's
sexual violence.
Okay, that's not the same thingas a loving relationship, and
they are right in a sense.
So we need to kind of add somethings to our argument, not just
the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
That was like the conclusion I was drawing, so
thanks for pointing that out.

Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah, now jude?
Now, if we fast forward intothe new testament, the epistle
of jude does mention it linkssalome gamora, the sins of
salome gamora, as sexual sin, uh, akin to the, the sin of the
angels in Genesis 6.
And then it links it also.

(36:26):
So I can just well, I don'thave the passage pulled up in
front of me, but basically Judeis addressing false teachers in
the church and he says hey,these false teachers, just as
Sodom and Gomorrah, just as theywere engaged in sexual
perversion, they did unnaturalthings, they did really
detestable things.
And just as the angels who arenow locked up in chains of
darkness, they left their properdwelling, they transgressed and

(36:49):
did detestable, sexual,perverted things.
So these false teachers aredoing the same thing they defile
their flesh.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
That's what he says.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
So he's linking like sexual immorality is a common
trait of false teachers.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
A same sex issue.
It's defiling of the flesh andworking outside sexuality in
those harmful ways.

Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah, yeah, but Jude is saying that what happened in
Sodom and Gomorrah was a severekind of sexual perversion.
So there is something to thisbesides just loving
relationships.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah, I mean it sounds like violence just all
around.
Yeah, yeah, I don't think we'vehit any instance in the Bible
so far of two people loving eachother like this.
Like in the way that we do intoday's context.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah, I'd say.
Well, the Bible doesn'tactually provide an example like
that because it doesn't thinkthat that's okay.
You won't find a positiveportrayal of same-sex attraction
or relationships in the Biblebecause the Bible's not going to
say that's okay.
Again, how does the Bibleportray sexual relationships in
a good way?

Speaker 2 (37:58):
In a heterosexual marriage union.
Why not monogamous?
Well?

Speaker 3 (38:00):
because there are instances of the patriarchss
having multiple wives, DavidSolomon having multiple wives.
It doesn't ever like say, hey,polygamy is great, but it does.
It does recognize that that wasa practice you know back then,
got it.
Yeah, now in the New Testamentit says hey, elders of a church,
husband of one wife, deacons,husband of one wife.
So it's pushing.
It's pushing the people of Godback to the Genesis 1 and 2

(38:23):
ideal, got it?

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Got it.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
Yeah, but yeah, you won't find same-sex couples in
any sense portrayed well in thescriptures.
Yeah, the scriptures are alwayslinking it to really severe
sexual perversion, sometimesidolatry Like there's a link
between same-sex relations andidolatry a lot of times or cult
practices.
But yeah, so sometimes peoplewill say, well, sodom and

(38:45):
Gomorrah were judged for theirinhospitality, not sexual
relationships.
And they get that from twopassages Let me scroll down on
my notes here so I don't getthem wrong and our listeners can
Ezekiel 16, 49 to 50, and thenIsaiah 1, 7 through 17.
These two passages refer to thesins of sodom and gomorrah and

(39:07):
it mentions they wereinhospitable, they were overfed
and they were unconcerned forthe poor.
They didn't help the poor andthe needy.
They were, they were proud.
And then it says and then theydid detestable things so it kind
of throws it in there, yeah.
Yeah, it's all together and ifyou read them closely it's
showing a progression.
Like they started out arrogantand haughty, decadent, didn't

(39:31):
care to do the real kind ofjustice that the Bible tells us
to do.
And then they move into sexualperversion.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
So there's this progression downward.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
There's a digression down into immorality.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
Do you?
I mean, I'm just trying tospeak for both sides and again,
like Steelman, the argument doyou feel like maybe somebody
listening in a same-sexrelationship who is Christian is
thinking like, listen, I'm surethere were some good cases of
loving people?
I doubt every, you know.
I'm sure not every same-sexrelationship was, you know, one
of sexual violence and abuse.
I'm sure there's some men andwomen out there that truly loved

(40:05):
each other.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
Do you?

Speaker 2 (40:06):
still think the contextual, like the dominance
factor of like to be in thatfeminine role overrules that
possibility.

Speaker 3 (40:14):
One of the reasons I wanted to talk about Sodom and
Gomorrah in that context is toset up the understanding that
I'm aware, like where I'm aware,of the counter arguments, but
Sodom and Gomorrah is not allthe scripture has to say about
it, about the subject, you know.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
So I was, I was worried, it was the only thing.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
So no, no, no, no, no , it's just the proof text that
people run to a lot of times asI'm doing right now.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
So educate me please so.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
So let's get into some of these other things.
We can build our our case.
The mosaic law talks aboutsame-sex relations, not just
sexual violence.
It talks about the act ofsame-sex relationships man lying
with man and it calls this anabomination.
This is in Leviticus 18 to 22,and then chapter 20, verse 13.

(41:03):
Now some people will say, well,in the law there's all kinds of
things that are prohibited, thatwe don't prohibit today, like
mixing different kinds of fabricor eating different kinds of
food.
The problem with that kind ofargument is that some things are
clearly ritualistic, like forthe religious rituals that the
Hebrews were doing.
Others were related to their,like cleansing and cleanliness

(41:26):
laws, but there are some andthese the instances where it's
talking about sexual moralitythat are related to universal
nature, natural order, and thepassages that address same-sex
activity, same-sex relations,are in the context where it also
addresses bestiality and othersuch things, and the reason it's

(41:47):
addressing these things isbecause these were practices of
the Canaanite cultures aroundthe Hebrews when they're going
into the land of Canaan.
The Canaanite cultures werepracticing these things, and so
the Hebrews were supposed to becompletely distinct from that
the Israelites were supposed tobe.
We are the people of God, wedon't do these things.
So these things were consideredabominations.

(42:09):
They're violations of thenatural order that God put in
creation for man and woman to betogether.
As I sometimes Satan our enemy,if he can destroy the sexual
order of human beings, he candestroy us completely.
I mean, it's that fundamentalto our nature, how we relate to
one another.
Yeah, so the Mosaic Law dealswith this subject.

(42:32):
Those are two clearprohibitions in the Old
Testament law.
Now we're not to the NewTestament yet, but it's there in
the Old Testament.
The Israelites did not practicethis at all.
Now, when they eventuallyengage in idolatry, when Israel
falls into idolatry at differentpoints in their history, they
do have cultic prostitution, andincluding in that is cultic
homosexual prostitution.

(42:53):
Yeah, there's a word, it'scalled the Kedassim.
Kedass is the Hebrew word andit refers to these like
homosexual cultic prostitutes,and those were oftentimes at
play in Israelite culture.
And some of the righteous kingsget rid of these cults so they
exterminate them, you know,destroy their altars and things

(43:15):
like that.
So this, all this behavior, islinked to Canaanite religion and
idolatry and abomination.
So God's saying all this is sin.
It's sin.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
I have a quick question on the Leviticus quote,
just because, again, like I'mcoming from this with just like
non-educated or informed fromlike a scholar's standpoint,
just what I've heard and youknow the internet, but I've
heard TikTok told me I'm justkidding the Leviticus quote was
a loose translation that wasn'ttranslated until like the

(43:44):
fifties by a German who wantedto take the original translation
that was originally referringto pedophilia and then he
changed it to homosexuality andat the end of the day, that
quote in Leviticus is actuallyreferring to, you know, men
should never lie with anotherboy.
That was the original Hebrewtranslation.
So they're actually not sayinghomosexuality, they're actually

(44:06):
referring to pedophilia, whichis absolutely wrong.
Do you have more data on that?

Speaker 3 (44:10):
Oh, yeah, oh yeah, it sounds like that person.
Again, I don't know who thatperson was.
It sounds like they're actuallymixing two things, because
that's typically the argumentthat people will use when
countering Paul's references tohomosexuality in the New
Testament.
They might be talking about theGreek Septuagint, because
that's the Greek translation ofthe Old Testament.
I don't know what Germanscholar they're referring to in

(44:33):
the 50s or 1800s that might'vebeen dealing with this.
But yeah, so we can kind of I'llspeed up so we can get to the
New Testament and, as Imentioned, the Ketuseim and the
cult practices, there's oneother really, really important
story in the Old Testament.
That's Judges 19, where aLevite priest, he goes to the
town of Gibeah, which is in thetribe of Benjamin, and it's a

(44:53):
similar story.
It's a parallel to Sodom andGomorrah and it shows how much
Israel had fallen into sexualimmorality.
That's the point of the storyis to show how dark things were
before the kings of Israel cameabout.
Is that the Levitical priest?
He's there and he's with hisconcubine, and they're about to
stay in the middle of the city,in the town square, and someone

(45:14):
this man says don't stay there,you come, stay with me, it's not
safe.
You see the parallel with Lotand then the men of Gibeah come
to this guy's house and say wesee you have a Levite priest
with you.
Send him out here so we canknow him.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
And how many years later is this?

Speaker 3 (45:29):
Oh, this is hundreds, hundreds of years, several
hundred years later, and I'mfuzzy on my Old Testament
timeline, but it's a long, longtime.
Well then, the owner of thishouse, what is the Levite?
What does he do?
Well, the owner of the houseand the Levite offer up the

(45:49):
concubine because they say don'tdo this detestable thing by
treating the Levite priest asyou would a woman.
So again there's that moralcalculus.
It's the lesser of two evils,it's not calling it's.
It's tough in the 21st centuryfor us to read those stories and
see like how the woman wastreated, because they eventually
kill her, I mean, they she'sleft for dead.
It's a really dark story, butshe's left for dead, she, she
kind of crawls her way back tothe house, but she dies on the,

(46:10):
on the basically the front stepsof this house, and the Levite
priest finds her in the morning.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 (46:16):
Yeah, well, it gets really dark, but eventually it
leads to almost to the nearextermination of the tribe of
Benjamin, because all the otherIsraelite tribes are basically
like all right, we're going towipe this out because this is
evil.
So what it's showing is thateven the Israelites had stooped
to the level of Sodom andGomorrah at that point at least,
the tribe of Benjamin had inthe men of Gibeah.

(46:37):
Yeah.
But what's important for thisis this is after they have the
law, they have the Mosaic law,and so these detestable things,
what the scripture callsdetestable, it's linking it now
back to the law as well.
So it wasn't just human nature.
What?

Speaker 2 (46:54):
was accepted.
Now this is an established lawthat they have to abide by.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
Yeah, okay.
So a lot of darkness in the OldTestament.
It's heavy stuff, heavy stuff.
Sometimes people will point tothe stories of Jonathan and
David in the Old Testament tosay, well, look, david says in 1
Samuel or 2 Samuel 1 thatJonathan's love for him
surpassed that of a woman 2Samuel 1, that Jonathan's love
for him surpassed that of awoman.
David is singing this lamentwhen Jonathan is dead and he

(47:20):
sings this lament over Jonathan.
He says your love for mesurpassed that of a woman.
And some people will look atthat and say, well, that's
clearly gay.
It's one of these texts wherethey have to stretch it to mean
something that it doesn't mean.
Basically, David is sayingJonathan risks his life for
David.
He gives up his royal, hisclaim to the throne for David.

(47:44):
He gives him his armor, hisroyal robe.
Jonathan basically gives hiswhole life to David and that's
the kind of love that David istalking about in this passage.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
But wouldn't that allude to like a much deeper
than friendship, love, if you'regiving your very good friend
your robe and your title to thecrown?

Speaker 3 (47:58):
yeah, well, so jonathan is is juxtaposed to his
dad, saul.
So saul is rejecting david'sanointing, anointing as king
yeah jonathan recognizes god'sanointing on david as king, and
so jonathan is righteous andhe's and he's good friends with
david, and so he's giving allthese things to david and like I
love you, I love you, like asmy friend and you have these

(48:20):
things.
It would be what we would callan anachronism.
Anachronism is a fallacy.
Where we read our culturalconnotations back into the text,
and a lot of people will dothat with this story.
They'll say, oh well, like wow,a love that surpasses that of a
woman must be gay.
That's not what that text isdoing.

(48:42):
It's Hebrew poetry, especiallylaments and psalms, often use
hyperbole in a way.
What David is saying is likeeven the most rapturous love
that he could experience with awoman, jonathan's devotion to
him, his giving up his life, hisroyal crown, everything that
kind of love surpasses that.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
I see.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yeah.
So there's no clear connectionthere with, like sexual.
There's no sexual connotationthere.
People really have to stretchthe text to mean that.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
I see, and without that it's pretty far to assume
that there was, when it doesn'tallude to it whatsoever.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
Yeah, especially when all the evidence points to
David being a quite heterosexualguy throughout his life.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
Correct.
Yeah, again, anachronism.
People say, well, he was maybein the closet or something.
That's just an anachronism.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
Yeah, okay, so let's jump to the New Testament.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, okay, so let's jump tothe New Testament.
All right, by the time we getto the New Testament, there's a
few important things we need.
So sometimes people will saythat, well, okay, there's
passages clearly there'spassages in the New Testament
that are really famous for thistopic, but Jesus doesn't say
anything.
Paul's the one that talks aboutthis subject.
Jesus never said anything abouthomosexuality.

(49:54):
Let's deal with that in twoways.
First, that's a fallaciousargument from silence, because
there's a lot of things thatJesus didn't say Okay, as one of
my professors said, jesus neversaid punching babies in the
face was wrong.
Okay, but we know that that'swrong, okay.
So someone's gonna be like, wow, you're so insensitive.

(50:14):
But there's a lot of thingsthat Jesus doesn't address.
Ok, that doesn't mean that wecan't address them.
That's number one.
Number two Jesus does addressthis indirectly when he's
teaching on the subject ofdivorce, because the Jews come
to him and they're like hey,who's which rabbis right?
Can we get divorced for anyreason or can we get divorced

(50:36):
only for adultery?
And Jesus is answering them.
He says Moses gave you thisletter.
He allowed you to have lettersof divorce because of the
hardness of your heart, becauseif you didn't, you'd probably
kill your wife.
He's really I mean, jesus iskind of spicy with the Pharisees
.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
He's so spicy.

Speaker 3 (50:52):
Yeah.
But he says from the beginningthis was not so, meaning divorce
.
From the beginning this was notso.
And then he quotes Genesis 1 orGenesis 2.
For this reason, a man shallleave his father and his mother
and shall cleave to his wife andthe two shall become one flesh.

(51:12):
So Jesus is going all the wayback to the created order saying
from the beginning this was themodel of marriage.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
He doesn't.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
He's not saying like two people that love each other
can bind and become one flesh,he would have.
If that was an option, I thinkhe would have included it.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
Maybe, maybe.
Now again, I'm also making anargument from silence, because
Jesus doesn't address this, butI think my argument from silence
is valid.
The other one is not.
You know like just becauseJesus doesn't say something
doesn't mean he condones it,whereas I can say he's clearly
condoning heterosexual marriageas the thing God created.
He's clearly pointing to thatas God's creation.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
That's true.

Speaker 3 (51:53):
Yeah, okay, so that's what we'll say about Jesus.
That's true, all humanity beingcondemned and under the wages

(52:16):
of sin, and therefore likereceiving death because of sin.
And he describes a society orpeople that reject God.
They reject belief in God first, and then, because of that
belief in God, they exchange thetruth of God for a lie and they
worship the creature ratherthan the creator.
So they go from worship of Godto idolatry.

(52:38):
That's the first step, and thenthe second step is that God,
because they've given themselvesover to this absurd belief that
the creation should beworshiped rather than the
creator, god gives them over totheir choices and then they
become further darkened in theirminds and since they've flipped
the created order on its headalready, they now reverse the

(52:59):
created order in sexualrelationships.
And he says women exchangingtheir natural affection for men
to be with each other and then,of course, men exchanging the
natural use of the woman to burnin their passions for one
another.
So Paul is talking about bothwomen and women, and men and men
together, so he's kind ofcatching everyone together.

(53:23):
Now we'll get into the pederastyargument here in a minute, but
that's a really famous passagewhere Paul is addressing
basically a general society thatgives itself over to idolatry,
first darkened minds and thenthey engage in sexual perversion
along the way.
And then two other reallyimportant passages.

(53:45):
Paul addresses 1 Corinthians 6,verses 9 and 10, where Paul
lists homosexuality among thosesins that are not consistent
with the Christian life.
He says people who practicethese things, they will not
inherit the kingdom of God.
And Paul says such were some ofyou guys, but you're not.
Now you're washed, you can comeout of these things.
So 1 Corinthians 6, and then 1Timothy 1, 8 and 10.

(54:09):
Paul makes almost an identicalargument there that this sin of
homosexuality is among a vicelist of things that are not
consistent with the people ofGod.
They shouldn't be practicingthose things.
Yeah, so where do we get thisargument that well, paul and the
Bible is just dealing witholder men with younger boys, as
you mentioned the pederastyargument.

(54:31):
Okay, this is where this comesin.
They'll argue that the dominantor the prominent form of
same-sex relations in theGreco-Roman world was pederasty,
which is where an older man is.
Quote unquote mentoring ayounger man in life and they
have sexual relations along theway and they develop this mutual
loving bond for one another.

(54:51):
So Paul's, really just dealingwith that, or he's dealing with
temple prostitution or sexualviolence as well.
So he's not dealing withunloving or he's not dealing
with the loving romantic unionsthat we see today.
This is the argument that'sbeing made.
The problem with that?
Let me give you the Greek firstand we'll address that.

(55:12):
And then there's a culturalargument, Some evidence we'll
bring forward.
In the passage 1 Corinthianspassage and the 1 Timothy
passage, when he listshomosexuality as one of these
sins, he uses a word, it's aGreek compound word arsonokoitai
.
It's from two words arson andkoitai.
Arson means it's A-R-S-E-N.

(55:35):
If you're transliterating it,that means like with males, it's
like to do something with menor with males, and koita means
intercourse.
So if you connect that together, it's intercourse with males.
Okay, so he is catching not justolder men with younger boys,
but basically the whole range.

(55:55):
If he had wanted to use, if hehad wanted to single out
pederasty, he could have used amore specific term like
pederastase in Greek or I'mgoing to, my Greek is so rusty
here, but paidofthoros is theGreek word.
Both of those words were moreprecise to refer to this

(56:17):
pederastic relationship.
He doesn't use those words, heuses a much more general any
same-sex relationship of menengaged with one another.
Another word he'll use is amolekoi, which just means softer
feminine.
It's the only place that's usedin the Bible, but in Greek

(56:40):
literature it refers to someonewho takes that female role in
the relationship.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
I see.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
Yeah, so he's using broad terms to describe an
activity that's not limited tojust pederasty.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
I see.
So even if it was referring toyou know somebody that takes on
a feminine role in like apedophilia type of relationship,
like a child, like a victim, inthat it's still not referring
to that, because if it was, itwould have used that specific
word for pedophilia.

Speaker 3 (57:11):
Yeah, paul could have been much more specific in his
language, I see.
So we've got broad.
We've got a broad prohibition.
In Romans 1, men and women andwomen together, paul says that's
an indication of a society thathas completely broken down
morally.
And then in these otherpassages 1 Corinthians 6 and 1
Timothy 1, paul is using a verybroad term as well to refer to
same-sex relationships.

(57:32):
Now, a cultural backgroundsargument that we could also
bring forward is this Somepeople will say well, paul
wasn't a, since the pederastywas the dominant form.
That's the only thing that Paulwould have been aware of in his
context.
He wouldn't have been aware oflike the loving unions that we
see today.

(57:53):
That just wasn't in hiscategory of thinking.
But that's actually false,because in the Greek this you
have to go to some Greekliterature and let me, let me
refer the audience to a bookthis is a really good book that
they, if you want to learn moreabout this, it's called the
Bible and homosexual practice byRobert Gagnon.
I'll just leave that up on thescreen for anyone who wants to
see that he's one of theforemost evangelical scholars on

(58:16):
this subject.
You can see how thick this bookis.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
It's a mammoth of a book and he deals with all these
background issues.
Long story short, you can findin Greek literature ancient
Greek literature, the classicalGreek and then the documents
swirling in the first centuryreferences to all kinds of
same-sex sexual relationships,not just pederasty, but all

(58:41):
different kinds of ages bisexual, homosexual, lesbian couples.
You can find references tothese things spoken of in a
positive manner.

Speaker 2 (58:50):
This is within the Bible.

Speaker 3 (58:52):
Not within the Bible, but within the wider Greek,
greco-roman world Got it,especially in the ancient Greek
literature by the time we, butwithin the wider Greek,
greco-roman world, especially inthe ancient Greek literature by
the time we get to the firstcentury, pederasty is no longer
the dominant form of same-sexsexual relationships.
I should say I see Paul wouldhave been aware of all of these
things.
Paul's a highly educated person.
He would have been aware of allof these other things.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
So if he wanted to limit to just pederasty, he
could have been way morespecific, but he's not I see,
okay, that makes a lot moresense that when he you know kind
of grouped them women and womenand men and men he was
including all those forms notjust pedophilia but yeah, yeah
that's good to know.
As far as like a historical andlike awareness, I mean, who are
we to know what they knew atthat time?

Speaker 3 (59:37):
Yeah Well, I mean, we can know a lot about what they
knew.
But the the, the pro LGBTarguments typically get some of
the background literature wrongor they just misrepresent it,
where they say well, paul didn'tknow these things.
Actually he did or he's onlyhe's only referring to one
specific kind of sex same sex,sexual relationship.
It's like no, he's actuallybeing much broader.
If he wanted to refer to thatspecific kind, he could have

(59:58):
been much more narrow in hisprohibitions.
Yeah, Well, I mean we could getinto just some theological
things, just some more broadthings I mentioned before.
Oftentimes the Bible linkssexual perversion, but
especially bestiality andsame-sex relationships, to
idolatry.
It oftentimes links these Notalways, but there's a link there

(01:00:21):
.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
What are we idolizing in bestiality?

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
Well, the creature, the creation yeah, okay, it's a
form of idolatry usually comesfirst.
So people give themselves overto the worship of the creatures
and the creation, and then thatleads to a darkened mind where
they're rejecting God'srevelation.
People give themselves over tothe worship of the creatures and
the creation, and then thatleads to a darkened mind where
they're rejecting God'srevelation.

(01:00:44):
And so then, if they rejectGod's revelation about who's in
charge, then they'll also rejectGod's revelation about what
they ought to do in this worldand how they ought to relate to
one another, even sexually.
So they give themselves over tothe passions of their flesh.
Interesting Now the NewTestament tells us as Christians
, we have to put the flesh todeath.

(01:01:04):
We mortify the flesh in orderto live as Christians.
So at this point in theconversation, when I'm talking
with students, I typicallysometimes deal with the question
of what about Christians whostruggle with same-sex
attraction?
How do we make sense of that?
If the Bible says that same-sexrelations are sinful, just like

(01:01:28):
any sex outside of marriage?
How do we deal with this?
How do we talk to a Christianwho's like look, I'm convinced
that Jesus is the Savior of theworld.
He's the Son of God, he diedfor my sins, but I have same-sex
attraction.
What do I do?
Okay, this is more a pastoralconversation, theological.
But how do we make?
I can make sense of ittheologically, for this episode

(01:01:50):
we can recognize one that thefall affects every aspect of our
being.
It affects us physically,mentally, spiritually.
So sometimes people are bornwith physical maladies.
They might be born crippled,they might be born with an
autoimmune disease.
Sometimes people are born withmental, psychological maladies.
There are Christians who willstruggle their whole life and do

(01:02:11):
struggle their whole life, withdepression because of something
that's physiological, it's notjust like something that can be
cured easily.
Sometimes Christians will dealwith psychosis and schizophrenia
because of what's happened,like something's gone wrong in
the brain and the wiring of thebrain.
You know, I was having aconversation just the other day
with a deliverance minister andhe was dealing with a person who
was hearing voices, thesymptoms of psychosis.

(01:02:33):
They were hearing voices, theywere seeing things and they were
convinced it was demonic.
And he deals with he deals withdeliverance and exorcism a lot,
and so he's he said, well, okay, we'll go through this
deliverance, but I can'tguarantee Like I can't guarantee
that this is demonic.
You may just have, like thismay be a flesh issue.
And so they went.

(01:02:54):
They went through thedeliverance process and at the
end of it the person was stillhearing voices and things like
that, and he's a professionalcounselor.
He's been a counselor for like30 years, so he knows mental
health.
He's an expert in mental healthas well, and he concluded from
that.
He said he's like this seemslike this is a problem with the
flesh and you're going to needto stay on your medication and

(01:03:15):
follow the protocols thatmedical professionals have for
you because that will help you.
But this is something in theflesh that you're going to have
to deal with.
So we need to recognize that,that even people who struggle,
who have a predisposition, let'ssay, to same-sex attraction, it
can be a thing of the fleshthat they must deal with.
As a Christian, we're called todeal with those things in our

(01:03:36):
flesh.
Now, same-sex attractionoftentimes is connected to
something in nurture andupbringing.
There could be naturalpredispositions.
There hasn't been any scienceto prove like there's a gene
where you're born gay and youcan't do anything about it.
There's nothing that has proventhat outright.
But there seems to be somegenetic predispositions that,

(01:04:00):
when put in the rightenvironmental circumstances,
like someone experiencesabandonment or abuse or
something like that, it cantrigger same-sex attraction and
someone can develop that.
So we just need to recognizethat and and you know my, my
colleague, sam, he goes intothis and our we did some
episodes on this topic and hegoes into that somewhat we just
need to recognize that the fallaffects these things, it affects

(01:04:22):
all of our being and that to betempted with that kind of
attraction just like as aheterosexual man to be tempted
with lust for a woman thetemptation itself is not a sin.
If I give over to thattemptation, if I indulge in that
temptation, then it becomes sin.
But just to be presented withthat struggle or with that
temptation, I have a choice tomake.

(01:04:43):
I can act upon it or I can gothe other way, and God says
there's always another way out.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
I see.

Speaker 3 (01:04:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
So I mean but that's tough, you've got to admit yeah,
it is.
To have a switch or be born orhowever it comes about.
I'm not gay so I wouldn't know.
But to say this is who I love.
How are you to tell me toreject that?

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
That is heartbreaking .
Yeah, I would say this, youknow, let me go off on a tangent
a little bit with like missions, the topic of missions Jesus
says in the New Testament.
The topic of missions Jesussays in the New Testament you
know, to follow me you must hateyour brother, you must hate
your father and your mother andlove me.
And we read that.
We're like, wow, that's harsh.

(01:05:26):
Why would we?
Why Jesus told us to hatepeople.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
I'm not too familiar with that Jesus yeah but the
language.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
There is not a visceral hatred of someone Like,
oh, but the language.
There is not a visceral hatredof someone Like, oh, I'm so in
love with Jesus and I hate myparents.
Not like that.
It's a language of choosing andadoption.
Just like when God says, jacob,have I loved, esau, have I
hated?
God's not saying man, I hatethat Esau guy.
He really just grinds my gears.

(01:05:53):
He's saying no, I've chosenJacob to be the father of Israel
, I've not chosen Esau.
And Jesus is saying in order tolove me, to follow me, to bear
your cross, you may have todecide between me and your
family.
Okay, in the missions in somecultures I'll get back around to

(01:06:14):
your question but sometimeswhen we in other cultures, where
family is paramount and you'retrying to evangelize people,
they will say, well, I love myfamily.
I could never, like we'reHindus or we're Muslims, I could
never abandon my family likethis.
And Christ calls us to followhim first and pray for our
family members.
But if we're presented with thegospel, we're called to follow

(01:06:37):
him first and in that sense wechoose him over family.
Okay.
So in the same sense, withsomeone who's dealing with
same-sex attraction and theyhave maybe a romantic partner,
or maybe they have someone theycare deeply about.
Christ is calling you to followhim first and then from that

(01:06:57):
calling you to follow him first,and then from that you know you
choose to love Christ and whathe has for your life first and
you mortify the flesh and I knowthat's tough.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
That's so tough.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
That is tough.
I mean there are people whoJesus says some people are
called to be eunuchs for thekingdom and some have been made
eunuchs for the kingdom.
Now he might be talking aboutphysical eunuchs or some just
because of circumstances intheir life.
They've been made eunuchs andthe Old Testament was likely a
eunuch because he went intoBabylonian captivity and
typically they would make thoseguys eunuchs.

(01:07:26):
There's no record of Danielbeing married, so it's likely
Now a Hebrew scholar might comealong and say Tim, you're wrong,
there's some good evidence thatDaniel was like.
Now a Hebrew scholar might comealong and say Tim, you're wrong
, there's some good evidencethat Daniel was like.
I mean, yeah, god says to it's apassage in Isaiah.
I'm drawing a blank on where itis, but this just to encourage
people.
God is talking.
He's talking directly toeunuchs in this passage and he

(01:07:56):
says to the eunuchs I will givethem a name greater than
children in the kingdom.
I can't remember the passageright now, but he's promising to
the eunuchs who follow me, Iwill give them a name greater
than children, because childrenwere the greatest thing you
could have in the ancient world.
I mean you needed children, buteunuchs had no hope of that and
sometimes people with same-sexattraction and then they're not
attracted to someone of theopposite sex.
They kind of feel like hopeless, like I'll never find like that

(01:08:22):
romantic love in this life.
If I'm a Christian and I followwhat I think the Bible is
saying, I'm kind of like facinga choice of following Christ and
resigning myself to not havingthat romantic partner in life,
or having my romantic partnerand not following Christ.
And God is promising to thosepeople who follow him I will
give you a name greater thanthat.
I will give you a name greaterthan children, you know that is

(01:08:45):
pretty, I would say that even tothe transgender people too, who
have even even mutilatedthemselves.
You know and gone through thosekinds of surgeries and things
like that.
That promises to them too.
You follow Christ.
He will give you a name greaterthan what the world can give
you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
I mean, that's a good place to end is with
encouragement, and I thinkyou've brought up a pretty solid
defense, tim, as far as whatpeople may say against
homosexuality and what clearlythe Bible says, and that this
call to follow Christ will berewarded.
I think that's the maintakeaway of this conversation
that God loves you and he wantswhat's best for you, and all of

(01:09:19):
us are victims of the fall, butwe need to succeed that and
still follow him above all else.
Now, I think that this is apretty awakening as far as like,
is it right?
Is it wrong?
You've made a very clearargument that, like, the Bible
does not agree with this, andthese are all the facts there's.
Really, it's very foolproof andbulletproof, but as like a
Christian woman with somefriends that are homosexual, I

(01:09:41):
don't want to hate them.
I don't want them to feel bad.
I don't want them to feel likethey're doing anything wrong
because they sin.
I sin, you know how.
Who am I?
How?
What is the best route forwardhere?
How do we love them and I hopeyou don't give me the well we
pray for them, but like whatelse?
How do we love them andencourage them?

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
So there's no foolproof answer here.
There's no easy answer.
Some people if I'm talking toChristians, okay, who are
dealing with friends or familymembers who are involved in
homosexual or LGBT lifestylesI'll just say this that
sometimes people might rejectyou.
You could be as loving andclear as you can be and you

(01:10:29):
still might get rejected.
They still might say you hateme, you won't accept me Again.
There's a conflation therebetween disagreement and hate.
Hate is a moral category of I'mcasting a moral judgment on you
as a person and condemning youand I'm not going to associate
with you at all.
Versus, I'm disagreeing withyour argument or I'm disagreeing
with this lifestyle Because Ithink it's not just wrong but
it's harming you, it'sdestructive.

(01:10:50):
You know God wants somethingdifferent for you.
Some people are just going toreject you.
So, as a Christian, just toencourage you that trust the
Lord with the truth.
You know I think it was JordanPeterson has said this like when
you speak the truth, it's thegreatest adventure that you'll
go on, because you don't knowwhat's going to happen.
But you have to speak the truthin love.

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
Okay, I know that's cliche.

Speaker 3 (01:11:12):
Christians say that all the time.
Speak the truth in love.
We need to practice empathy,and that means sitting down with
someone hey look.
And saying, hey, I can't putmyself in your shoes of knowing
what it's like to experiencesame-sex attraction in the way
that you do, and so I won'tpretend that your road is easy

(01:11:33):
to walk.
And so don't presume and justdon't give easy, like pat
answers.
I think it might take many,many conversations of talking
with someone and saying, hey,this is what the Bible says.
God wants something better foryou.
This lifestyle is ultimatelygoing to lead to destruction.
It might be good now, andstatistically this bears out too

(01:11:54):
, but God wants something betterfor you and he's promising
something better for you.
If you follow him and trust him.
But that means sacrifice aswell.
You know we all have tosacrifice things.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
I was about to say it's not just anybody who's in
same sex attraction.
That's like well am I screwedthen because of the situation?
I think this goes for all of us.
I struggle with my own sins andI have to choose God through
those.

Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
Oh okay, so let me give you an encouraging story
Please.
So I've had friends sodiscouraging.
I have had friends even atLiberty former Liberty students,
dorm mates of mine who theyseemed like they were like
normal heterosexual guys.
They got married even and someof them had children and then

(01:12:39):
all of a sudden they left theirwives in for another man and
then they kind of destroyedtheir marriage and all that
stuff.
And that's been really hardbecause some of them have
attacked me as well personally.
They've just become veryanti-Christian in a way.
I have had a few personalexamples of that, but one one
story in particular that'sencouraging.
I was at a birthday party manyyears ago and I heard these two

(01:13:01):
guys who were atheists formerChristians, really like kind of
like rabid atheists, like reallyangry, love to argue with
people and they were picking onthis one guy who was a Christian
and he wasn't like trainedphilosophically or anything like
that.
So I kind of felt bad for himbecause he was kind of getting,
he was getting bested by thesetwo atheists.
So I decided to like I'll justlike join this conversation and

(01:13:22):
and one sense, it was a mistakebecause it turned into like a
three hour.
I was stuck for like threehours with these guys.
So we went round and around forthree hours about all kinds of
stuff, not just nothomosexuality, but like creation
, the existence of God, theresurrection, all that stuff.
And at the end of the threehours I'm like, wow, I just
spent the whole this wholebirthday party like talking to
these guys.
And now it's time to leave andas I was about to leave, this

(01:13:45):
one guy, he said hey, it wasgood to meet you, you know.
He was a brother of one ofthese two atheists and he had
just been sitting there thewhole time listening.
I didn't know who he was, nevermet him at all, but he had
listened the whole time to thisconversation.
And he said hey, I want tothank you for what you said, you
know, and I was like, okay,he's like I've never heard, I've

(01:14:05):
never heard anyone likedescribe, like, defend, like
their views that way before,which, again, christians like
know, like know your stuff andjust be able to talk about it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:13):
Um, I'm trying, tim.
That's why we're here, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:17):
I have had a lot of training, so I do have that
advantage.
But do the work.
There's apologetics classesthat people can take, a lot of
great online resources.
Anyway, I digress.
Years later I see this guy inthe gym and I hadn't seen him
since that birthday party.
And he comes up to me and hesays, hey, you remember me?
And I was like, I think so.

(01:14:38):
And he's like yeah, we're atthe at the birthday party.
And I'm like oh, yeah, he'slike, hey, I just wanted to tell
you that I want to thank youfor that conversation, because
I'm a Christian now and I waslike, oh, he said, yeah, um, I
recently became a Christian, afew months ago.
And he's like I and I was gaytoo, and I'm no longer gay, um,
and I'm a and I'm a Christian.
And he's like and the, thatconversation you had with my

(01:15:01):
brother and his friend, that wasthe first seeds of my journey
to kind of come to faith.
So it was like I didn't, Iwasn't some winsome evangelist
that gave him the Romans road.
And he's like wow, like I'llaccept Christ right now.
You know, wow, you know itwasn't that, it was a long road
for him, but I didn't realizethat three-hour conversation,
that frustrating three-hourconversation, was planting a
seed in someone that I wasn'teven intending to plant a seed

(01:15:24):
into and then that germinatedinto a full-blown, you know,
faith and coming out of gaylifestyle.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
Yeah, that's amazing, tim, that's phenomenal.
I mean, I think at the end ofthe day, I look at Jesus and
like maybe this is more of apassive look on it.
But until I am thoroughlytrained and feel confident in it
because I don't want tomisrepresent the faith I believe
that God is a product thatworks.
You know, god is a product thatif I knock on a doorstep it's
going to sell itself.
And planting those seeds, youdidn't have to follow up with

(01:15:52):
him every month, you didn't haveto call him and take him to
church, like God did the work.
And that's what I hope to dowith these conversations by
sharing them publicly.
The point of this whole thingwas for me to learn, but I think
a lot more people needed tohear it, because I'm probably
not the only one of these shoes.
But at the end of the day,especially for a topic this
sensitive which is why I saythis it's not to say we're right

(01:16:13):
, you're wrong.
It's to think about thesethings and maybe something will
come out of it and to at leastconsider it.
So thank you for treadinglightly and sensitively and very
well spoken.
I mean, they definitely don'ttalk to this depth in church.

Speaker 3 (01:16:28):
So it's truly a privilege to get yeah.
I mean when you bring up theNephilim from the pulpit.
It's just things get crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:16:40):
Well, that's why I had to bring it up right at the
beginning.
No, but truly I don't.
It's.
It's such an honestconversation and it's so
well-educated.
So just the privilege of beingable to have this type of
information and to share it.
You don't get this without itbecoming some sort of aggressive
conversation or demeaning oraccusatory.
So, thank you, thank you somuch.

Speaker 3 (01:16:56):
And glad to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
We're way over time, but I still have a feeling that
there's more to be said, sowe'll save that for another
episode.
If you've got the time, I'dlike to end.
What can you plug?
Do you have classes?
Do you have books?
Do you have speaking events?
How do people hear more if theylove this?

Speaker 3 (01:17:10):
Oh man, this is now.
I'm convicted, because I wassupposed to work on my
dissertation to make it into abook and I haven't.
So I missed out on some sales,I guess.
But I will plug the podcastPsych and Theo.
Again, it's pretty new, justabout four months, but give it a
listen.
We tackle all kinds of subjects.
We did a trilogy on thissubject of LGBT issues.

(01:17:32):
We did a four-part series onspiritual warfare where we talk
about the Nephilim and mentalillness and demon possession.
We talk about mental illness anddemon possession, how to
discern between those two things.
We deal with manhood andwomanhood and all kinds of
mental therapy, so we deal withall kinds of issues.
So I'd say, give us a listen.
We're trying to grow.
We're a little baby podcast buthopefully people enjoy it.

(01:17:54):
Each episode is about an hourlong.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
Yeah, and some are shorter as well.

Speaker 3 (01:18:00):
Yeah, yeah, we have a few at the beginning that are
kind of like getting to know usepisodes.

Speaker 1 (01:18:05):
Some of your favorite movies.

Speaker 3 (01:18:06):
Yeah, yeah, oh, don't get me started on that, no,
we're already out of time.

Speaker 2 (01:18:11):
No, that's amazing, and I just remember that you are
coming back.
I already have you on schedule.
We'll coordinate the detailsanother time, but to talk about
transgenderism, which I think.
Again I'm terrified to talkabout this, but again I'm
uninformed.
So we have to talk about this,especially from the biblical
perspective, and if you're aChristian I think we should also
be informed of that.
So excited to get you back on.
I'll follow up on a good dateand time as the summer kind of

(01:18:39):
nears its last month.
But thank you again.
I really appreciate all thetime and committing to such a
late call, especially for you.

Speaker 3 (01:18:42):
Oh, it's all good, you know it's five minutes to my
bedtime, so I'm going to hurryhome and get in bed.
Perfect, Perfect Well thanks somuch.
It's early for you, it's likewhat four o'clock or something
at your time.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
Oh yeah, I'm like starting my day.

Speaker 3 (01:18:53):
Wow, just just suffering in Hawaii and it I'm
like starting my day.
Wow, just suffering in.

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
Hawaii.
It's so rough, the sun's goingto go down soon, can't surf
anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:19:00):
Wow, just bearing your cross, just bearing your
cross, taking up every day, allright.
Well, thanks for having me on.
It was a great conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
Of course.
Thanks so much, Tim.
See you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:19:11):
All right, bye-bye.
All right guys.
All right guys.
Well, I hope you enjoyed thatepisode.
Again, it was a really greatinterview and I just want to
remind you for our friend cass,if you don't follow her podcast,
give her a follow.
She's a really great supporterof our show and she's also uh
been really uh enthusiasticabout the topics that we discuss

(01:19:33):
and she's also veryenthusiastic about the shows
that she does with her guestsand, again, we've kind of
collaborated on a number ofprojects together and it's just
really good to support eachother.
So give her a follow.
She's on instagram and you canfind her podcast on itunes and I
think she's on spotify as well.
So thank you again for tuningin.

(01:19:53):
We will see you next time.

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Ep. 40 - How to Navigate LGBT Issues Using Compassion and a Biblical Lens w/ Cassian Bellino

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 40 - How to Navigate LGBT Issues Using Compassion and a Biblical Lens w/ Cassian Bellino