Ep. 41 - Exploring How Your Attachment Style Influences Your Relationship with God

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What if your attachment style could shape not just your human relationships but your spiritual connection with God? Join us for a transformative episode with Sam Landa, a licensed professional counselor and educator, who shares his personal journey into understanding God attachment. Influenced by his upbringing, including the impact of his parents' divorce, Sam reveals how these experiences molded his attachment style and his relationship with the divine. Together, we uncover the powerful intersection of psychology and spirituality, offering listeners insights into recognizing and reshaping their attachment dynamics for a more meaningful spiritual life.

As we navigate the complex realm of God attachment styles, we examine how childhood experiences affect our faith practices and interactions with God today. From secure to disorganized attachment, Sam and I explore how these styles manifest in our spiritual lives, drawing parallels with Biblical figures like Jonah, Moses, and Job. Through this engaging exploration, we illuminate how life's stressors can unveil these patterns, proposing pathways to healing and strengthening one's connection with God.

Dive deeper into the nuances of intimacy and obedience in a spiritual context as we contrast the use of "Abba, Father" with historical perspectives on divine connection. By differentiating between the "God image" and "God concept," we discuss the balance of tradition and personal engagement in one's relationship with God. Finally, we explore how upbringing and personal experiences profoundly influence religious attachment, offering a pathway to healing and a stronger divine connection. Don't miss this enriching conversation that blends psychological insights with theological wisdom to enhance your understanding of faith and spirituality.

To learn more about Cassian Bellino and her podcast, check out her information below:

Cassian's Website: https://www.bibspeak.com/

Bio: 

Cassian Bellino is the passionate host of Biblically Speaking, a podcast born from her personal journey of seeking clarity in Scripture. Over the past year, Cassian has turned her questions and curiosity into a thriving platform that has reached over 70,000 followers. She’s had the privilege of hosting renowned guests such as Dr. Hugh Ross, Dr. John Walton, Pastor Douglas Wilson, and Ken Ham, creating conversations that bridge faith, reason, and a deeper understanding of the Bible.

When she’s not hosting interviews or building community, you can find Cassian inspiring others to connect scripture to daily life and faith. Join the conversation and explore her work: Resources: https://stan.store/biblicallyspeaking  Website: https://www.bibspeak.com/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and
Theology podcast.
This is another episode that werecorded with a friend of ours,
ms Cassian Bellino, and on thisepisode she interviewed me and
we had a great discussion on Godattachment and it was really
good.
I think everyone just enjoyshearing about how they attach to

(00:23):
people, how they relate topeople, but the real cool thing
about God attachment is how thattranslates over, obviously,
into our relationship with God.
So she has some great questions.
We had a great discussion and Ihope that you guys enjoy it and
, as always, remember to followus on Instagram.
We're at psych underscore andunderscore Theo on Instagram,
and you can also email us atpsychandtheo at gmailcom If you

(00:46):
have any questions.
You can find us on iTunes, onSpotify and Apple podcast, and
leave us a review.
We'd love for you to follow thepodcast.
We talk a lot about manydifferent topics and in the next
couple of weeks we're going tobe releasing episodes on how
Christians can manage or dealwith their anxiety and with
depression and what are somehealthier ways of coping with

(01:09):
them you know, still having abiblical approach or how a
Christian would handle it andTim's going to talk about the
forgiveness, of how Christiansneed to receive and extend
forgiveness to others, and so on.
So, again, thank you forfollowing the podcast and also,
if you want to learn more aboutyour God attachment healing or

(01:29):
your own relationship with God,you can follow my page at God
attachment healing on Instagramand I have a lot of videos there
putting out a lot more contentthis month and next month.
And, yeah, you guys will learna lot about your attachment
style there.
So, without further ado, enjoyour conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Hello, hello everybody, welcome to Biblically
Speaking.
My name is Cassian Bellino andI'm your host Today.
I'm so excited to have SamLanda on my podcast.
If you follow me on Instagram,you would have known that he's
been on my live a couple timesand we were discussing
attachment theory.
Because you're a psychologist,you're a licensed counselor, a
licensed professional counselor,which I'll get into your bio in

(02:07):
a second.
But just the topic of attachmentstyle.
You typically think of that oflike your ex and how are you
attached to them, or theattachment style you have to
your parents and how thatinfluences modern day
relationships.
But you blew my mind on thelive when you were saying what
is your attachment style to God?
So I'm so excited that we'vededicated an hour now to explore

(02:28):
all of that topic further andjust to give you a proper
introduction, sam, you are alicensed professional counselor.
You're based in the East Coast.
You teach undergraduatepsychology courses at Liberty
University.
You've taught at every level ofeducation, starting from middle
school through the graduatelevel.
You have online teachingcourses, residential psychology
courses and right now you'reworking on your doctorate degree

(02:51):
as a counselor, education andsupervision.
You have research.
You're writing a dissertationon this topic and you also host
two different podcasts, onebeing Psych and Thea with Tim
Yance and another as GodAttachment Healing, which I had
the privilege of being onyesterday.
I'm so excited for that episode.
We had a really greatconversation, but welcome.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Thank you.
I'm excited.
I mean anytime we could talkabout attachment, I'm down for
it.
I mean this has been on my mindsince, like I started graduate
school.
I think I shared a little bitwith you on my podcast about
just my mentor.
I mean that was kind of how he,what he did his dissertation on
, and basically just talkingwith him and having chats about
attachments.
So it just became like a lanefor me to stay in and then just

(03:34):
find different avenues to attachto.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
So you would say, while you were in your graduate
level research, you found acounselor, a teacher that was
really helpful for you tounderstand what your attachment
style was, just to yourself, toyour partners, to your parents
and even to God.
And from there is when youstarted focusing on attachment
style in a spiritual sense.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, once he introduced God
attachment style to me, it justmade a lot of sense of how I
related to God, because it wasvery much based on my
relationships with my parents,my relationship with my
authority figures.
It was very distance,respectful oriented, which I'm
sure we'll talk about in alittle bit, but I missed the
relational piece, part of it.

(04:14):
So the anxious person that'skind of who I was.
Everything was out of mycontrol.
My parents got divorced when Iwas 17.
So that shook me a little bit.
So everything that I had as asecure base was not a secure
base anymore.
So then I was trying to grabonto things that would give me
some sense of security, and alot of that was accomplishing

(04:34):
stuff and just trying to do andbe the best for everything or
everyone else.
That's kind of where it started.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, that's a pretty big goal.
So what were you studying priorto kind of focusing on
attachment theory?

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, I didn't have anything that I was focusing on.
I mean, I was just interestedin learning about everything.
But because I was so close tothat professor we just slowly
started to, he started to investtime in me and I started to
kind of pick up on what he wassharing.
So it just makes sense to meand it's just kind of stuck with
me ever since.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
That's amazing.
Yeah, I'm sure that this hasreally affected every avenue of
your life.
When you now like look throughthe lens of you, know what is
our attachment style.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yes, very much so, Everything that I do, and look
at any.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Well, kind of the background.
Do you want to give like aquick synopsis on exactly what
happened that got you tofocusing so much on attachment
theory?
Yeah, so like the story of youand your counselor right
actually.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
So he was my professor when I first entered
graduate school and he was so Ihad three professors and two of
them I still know to this daygot very close with them.
But he kind of took thismentorship, discipleship
approach with me where when Ibecame his GSA and TA, so
graduate assistant, teachingassistant, he really just kind
of poured his life into me.

(05:54):
So he really he asked me onetime he said, sam, what do you
want to do in the future?
Like, what's your big goal withcoming to graduate school and
seeking this degree and so on.
And I was like you know, itseems that I've just always been
the teaching realm, like Itaught middle school students, I
taught high school students, Ilike working with graduate
students and undergrad students.
And he said, so you want toteach?

(06:16):
I think so, yeah, that's what Iwant to do.
He's like, ok, well, prepare alesson and in three weeks you
can teach a class.
I'm like what?
So that's kind of how heintroduced me to just the
classroom experience at thegraduate level.
Yeah, it was crazy.
I was just so surprised that hewanted me to have that
experience.
So I took that and, yeah, Imean my love for teaching, for
being in the classroom workingwith students, it really grew

(06:38):
from there.
So I've been teaching eversince.
That was in 2012, 2013.
And so, yeah, yeah, so I'vebeen there for for many years
and the attachment piece was metrying to understand the, the
way I related to others.
Obviously you mentioned kind ofwhether you with romantic
partners or friendship, parentsor people in the church, and I

(06:59):
was just always filled with thisoverwhelming machine and feel
like never getting things right.
So I was an over performer,like I wanted to do things.
I didn't think about it likethat when I was doing it for me,
it was just I was just seeingthe real.
That was my mentality.
So I kind of operated that way,but I didn't see anything about

(07:20):
it.
But when it started to becomean issue in actual relationships
and friendships, I realizedthat something was off.
And then started to become anissue in actual relationship and
friendship.
I realized that something wasoff and then I noticed the same
thing in my relationship withgod is that I try to keep all
the rules in order for me to begood enough pleasing for god.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
So that just kind of led me into trying to understand
it more and more okay, wow,that is quite a realization when
you're kind of like I'manxiously attached to you, know,
and I feel like I'veexperienced an anxious
attachment just some priorrelationships where it is this,
you know, eagerness forcloseness, for intimacy, for
honesty, and to feel like you'renever really going to get

(07:57):
enough of it or that you're notdeserving of it.
Am I understanding thatcorrectly?

Speaker 1 (08:04):
understanding that correctly.
Yeah, yeah, that's a perfectdescription of it.
I mean, the person who isanxiously attached wants to be
the best that they can, but evenif they are the best, they
still feel like it's not enough.
They still feel like they'remissing the mark and therefore
continue.
Kind of people pleasingbehaviors.
Right, in this case it was Godpleasing behaviors.
What pleases God.
Me going to church three timesa week.
Me going to this church eventover here.
Me going to home group me beingserviceable.

(08:25):
Me going to church three timesa week.
Me going to this church eventover here.
Me going to home group me beingserviceful me going to every
service opportunity.
All of those things for me waslike if I do these things, then
God will see me in a betterlight, right?
And we do that with people too.
If I do A, b and C, then thisperson will fully accept me.
If I don't mess up, then thisperson will really love me,
right?
So we kind of carry on thosesame patterns in both

(08:47):
relationships.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
And just to kind of like compare it, having more
secure attachment to God wouldbe, you know, doing the things
that you actually want to do,not the things that you're
supposed to do.
Or I want to say like, haveboundaries with God.
But if I was to have a securerelationship with someone to be
like, well, I can't come to youat every beck and call, like, I

(09:08):
have boundaries, I need to go tobed early, or I have, you know,
I have to work out so with God,what would those boundaries, in
a secure attachment style toGod, what would be?
Some examples of those?

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, so.
So one way I like to break itdown is kind of having this
quadrant, or different views ofpeople and different views of
God.
So think about it this way thesecurely attached person has a
high view of self and a highview of others, meaning that
they overall have a positiveview of themselves, good
self-esteem, they understandthemselves, they are able to

(09:37):
reflect well, can regulate theirown emotions.
So that's a securely attachedperson.
And they also believe thatabout other people.
But that stems from theirchildhood experiences where if
their parents were able to meettheir needs, then it would make
sense why they would trust thatpeople are, in general, good and
that in general, people canmeet their needs right.
So they have a positive view ofpeople and a positive view of

(09:59):
themselves.
So that's a securely attachedperson.
An anxiously attached personhas a high view of others,
negative view of self.
Right, so people are betterthan me.
People you know, they're somuch smarter, they're so much.
Needs were met inconsistently.
They never knew if they reallyhit the mark right.

(10:28):
So maybe on some days mom ordad was able to meet a need, but
on other days not so much.
Maybe mom promised some thingsor dad promised some things and
sometimes they got it and othertimes they didn't right.
So they never really know.
Is it because of me that I dosomething wrong, that I didn't
receive that gift or I didn'treceive that love or care?
So they start to viewthemselves negatively.

(10:49):
But it can't be, mom or dadthat messed up.
It can't be my authority figuresthat messed up, so it must be
me.
So positive view of others,negative view of self, the
avoidant attachment style theywould see themselves in a
positive light and would seeothers in a negative light,
right?
So I had to depend on myself inorder to meet these goals.

(11:10):
In order for me to do well inschool, I just became super
dedicated.
I didn't need anyone, it waspretty much all up to me and I
made it work, right.
So they've learned that theycan't depend or trust other
people.
So avoidance typically.
They didn't have their needsmet, so they couldn't depend or
trust other people.
So avoidance, typically.
They didn't have their needsmet, so they couldn't trust
their primary caregivers, right?
They never trusted anyone thatwould be in their circle because

(11:33):
everyone was doing their ownthing or people were distracted
or everyone was working right.
So they kind of learned to fendfor themselves.
So, in that sense, becausethey've had to do it for so long
, why would I depend on anyoneelse when I've been doing these
things on my own right?
So they develop a sense ofavoidance of close relationships
, like they can communicate withpeople and attach to people in

(11:56):
a way that works for them, butthey're not going to be intimate
or vulnerable or close withthat person.
For them it's really kind ofagain, positive view of self,
negative view of others.
Others are going to hurt me.
I'd rather not go through thathurt, so I'll just kind of
depend on myself, right?
And then, lastly, thedisorganizer, or the fearful
avoidance.
This person typically hasexperienced some significant

(12:17):
trauma, so sometimes they feelanxious, other times they feel
avoidance, other times they justdon't know what to feel.
They can't regulate, they can't.
They don't have anyself-awareness, right?
So this is just someone who notonly did they not have their
needs met, but they wereprobably abused in some way,
shape or form, you know, becausethe impact of trauma is not

(12:38):
just when you are abused, butit's also when significant needs
are withheld or not provided.
So this person grows uplearning I can't trust anyone,
but I want to trust someone, butI can't.
What if they break my heart?
What if they are not able tomeet my needs?
Is it my fault?
Is it because of me?
So they have this constantbattle in their mind where it's

(12:58):
a negative view of self and anegative view of others, right?
So that's kind of the overallperspective of attachment styles
, in the way that they viewthemselves and the way that they
view other people.
And again, just take that sametemplate and apply that to God.
If their relationship withtheir parents was that they
never met their needs and thatthey had to depend on themselves

(13:18):
, an avoidant person, anavoidant attachment to God,
would look like someone who saysyou know, I believe in God, but
you know, I got to where I ambecause of the things that I've
done.
I mean, I'm really smart, I'mreally this, I am very competent
.
So all of these things that Ihave, yeah, god's good and he's
given me some, but I've alsoworked hard for it, right?
So this is the person whodoesn't really have anyone to

(13:38):
depend on, so they onlyunderstand them doing the work
to get the results that theywant.
So I know God and I believe inGod, but I don't trust him
enough to be vulnerable andintimate and seek a relationship
with him.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
Okay, so that would be the avoidance.
So it's more of like a lack offaith and vulnerability and
intimacy.
And then there was also anxious.
So that was anxious was.
I'm sorry, I'm like, my mind isslipping.
That would be the lower view ofmyself and the higher view of
others.
I'm sorry, I'm like my mind isslipping.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
That would be the lower view of myself and the
higher view of others ExactlyLike why would God love me?
What do I have to give to God?
Right?
Who am I in this, in this world?
Right?
So God is great, I love youknow, he's a great person, he
loves and he says he loves me,but I'm not lovable.
Right, because no one in theirworld has shown them that
they're lovable and they havethat negative view of themselves
already.
So they see God, they respectGod, they understand that God is

(14:28):
good, but they don't reallyexperience that with him.
because of their anxiousattachment style, they don't
have a level of consistency tobelieve that.
Right, this is a person whocould read scripture that talks
about God's goodness and abouthis presence and about his
faithfulness and all of thosethings, and they could see it
and read it and believe it, butthey don't feel like they're

(14:50):
worthy to experience that withGod.
So, gosh, they become anxious.
They feel like it's about them.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
This reminds me of the conversation we had
yesterday.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
I realize now how much I told you yesterday on the
podcast.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
You're like anxious attachment Got it Okay, keep
going.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
So now, secure attachment with God.
What would that look?

Speaker 1 (15:10):
like Okay.
So secure attachment with Godwould be okay.
I'm worthy of love.
You know, my parents have shownme that they can meet my needs.
My needs will eventually be met, even though right now it
doesn't look like it.
But because I know that God isfaithful and because I know that
he is good, and because I knowthat he is just at the right
time, he will give me what Ineed right.

(15:34):
So this is a person who could begoing through a time of
suffering, but because they havesuch consistent behaviors of
people meeting their needs, it'san easy leap to read scripture
and see those verses that talkabout God's goodness, his
faithfulness and his providenceand believe it, because that's
all they've ever experienced.
So they have a high view of God, positive view of God and a
positive view of themselves.

(15:55):
They don't see themselves asunworthy.
They understand the biblicalaspect of being a sinner, but
they don't see themselves as, oh, God would never love me.
They say no.
God says in his word that heloves me.
I believe it, I've experiencedit and I know that he's used
people in my life to show me howmuch he loves me.
It could be my parents.
It could be a best friend.
It could be a pastor, it can beanyone in their life, but they

(16:16):
see the world through thissecure lens of God loves me and
the way that he's demonstratedthat to me is through these
people in my life.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
That is absolutely mind blowing, but you've just
mapped that out so well.
So, thank you, sam.
Was this like so mind blowingfor you when you realized this
and you like put this down inwords?
I mean, just in your field wasthis kind of revolutionary?
Or like, what was the responsewhen you kind of put this
together, because I've neverheard this before?

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, well, it was the first time I had heard it
with my professor and I was justshocked.
I was like, yeah, I mean, itmakes perfect sense, right, like
as we're talking about it, yeah, that makes sense.
Like if all I've everexperienced is fear and
disappointment in myrelationships.
Why would I believe that God istrustworthy, you know, if I
don't have any real lifeexamples of what trustworthiness
is, how can I make that lead tojust reading scripture and

(17:07):
believing it?
Now, there are the examples ofpeople who have, through the
Holy Spirit, have been convictedof sin and then they learn to
depend on God, because obviouslynow we have the spirit of God
living inside of us.
So God awakens us to thosethings.
But the majority of life is ourexperiences with people.
Right, we're made to be incommunity when we're made in

(17:30):
God's image.
God in his being is a triuneGod.
He's Father, son, holy Spirit,right, so he's a community
within himself.
So when we read that we're madein God's image, it makes sense
why we so desperately seekrelationships.
We so desperately seekacceptance and completeness,
because that is God's nature.
He is complete and fullyunderstands himself as a trinity

(17:54):
, as the one right, his oneness.
So all of those things, itmakes sense why we relate and
why we seek that community somuch.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
Wow, I love the way you just put that, sam is that
God is his own community ofFather, son and Holy Spirit.
You know he has this triune oflike a fun group of three and
with that we already have, youknow, three people that we can
be in community with.
I mean, you know, just me andmy three best friends like
that's a good time, and withthose people I want the most
secure, trusting, lovingrelationships with.
So when we approach God, we aretechnically, yeah, approaching

(18:26):
our quote unquote best threefriends and coming to them in
what type of relationship style,what type of communication
style and how do we view them?
You mentioned something about,like the father, you know,
understanding God as a father.
This concept, you know, istough, I think, because God is
so many things he's a protector,he's a provider, he's a father,
he's a friend and, you know, istough, I think, because God is

(18:47):
so many things he's a protector,he's a provider, he's a father,
he's a friend and, you know, asan early Christian, it's kind
of hard to imagine that in oneperson there's not typically one
person that plays all of thoseroles for us, but as a father.
You pointed out that this iskind of a new concept when it
came to the Israelite culturethat prior to Christianity and
Jesus, you know, seeing God asthe Father was new.
It wasn't something that theytypically did.

(19:09):
Could you kind of give us somebackground on that topic?

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, yeah, and let me preface that and I know we've
talked about it before youraudience as well is that my
background in specialization isin counseling and psychology and
attachment theory and so on.
So I'm not a biblical scholar,but I can read scripture and try
to gain an understanding ofwhat's happening in the text and
so on.
Actually, there's a really goodbook and even I think it's how

(19:35):
to make the most of reading yourBible.
I have it over here somewhere,but that it's a really good
demonstration of how to readthrough scripture and see it and
make observations and so on.
So, with that being said, oneof the observations made about
this aspect of God as a fatheris that the words themselves.
We see it in a couple of versesand I think I sent you some.

(19:55):
So we see some in Isaiah, wesee one in Jeremiah, some in
Malachi, right.
So I'll read some of theseIsaiah 63, verse 16, for you are
our father through Abraham,though Abraham does not know us
and Israel does not acknowledgeus.
You, o Lord, are our father.
Our redeemer of old is yourname.

(20:15):
So we see a reference here fromthe prophet Isaiah mentioning
this aspect of God, our father,right, 64, 8.
For now, o Lord, you are ourfather, we are the slave, you
are our potter and we are all ofyour hand.
And now I can have we not allone father has not one god
created us.
Why then are we faithful to oneanother?

(20:38):
Of our father?
We see these references to godas our father, but probably what
we see more often in the old isthe children of god.
The old testament kind ofunderstood themselves, or the
israelites that they werechildren of God, which would
imply that God was their father,right.
But we don't see that languageas much in the Old Testament of

(21:01):
them referring to him as fatherand remember that they would use
a high priest to connect or torepent of their sins with God.
Right, and that was, I think itwas done once a year.
So that was really their ownconnection with God.
And just to make it quickly,and with Jesus he kind of breaks
through all of that.
He says now you can have apersonal relationship with God
through me, his son, which iswhy I came to earth.

(21:21):
So now they have direct accessto God.
Which Hebrews, I think it'sHebrews 12.
So they have direct access toGod.
Us modern day Christians havedirect access to God At that
time.
They didn't.
So the culture played a hugerole in how they even saw their
relationship with God.
You know, god was the creator,he was the father, he was the
one who provided for them, whomade miracles right, who

(21:44):
protected them.
So you see that when they hadto battle other nations and so
on, so they understood all ofthat.
But I don't know and again thisis where my colleagues and
scholar friends of Old Testamentcan't correct me but they
didn't know or they didn't havethat personal relationship
individually with God as anation.
They had it with God, but Idon't know if they were able to

(22:05):
experience or if theyexperienced it relationally.
So we have Abraham with God andwe have all the fathers and so
on that they had that, but theywere representatives of God to
the people, right?
So that's an area where I thinkmy friends and colleagues can
speak to about.
Yeah, I mean, did theyexperience God in the same way
that we would today?

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Absolutely, and I think you're just bringing up a
lot of points.
I mean, this is a discussion,you have an area of expertise.
Thanks for showing me yourlimits.
I mean there's no, I'm nottrying to corner you into giving
me a response, but like, if youthink about it, there's the
Israelites that are experiencingGod through a priest or through
a messenger, like Abraham orMoses, who are experiencing God
in firsthand.
And if you had a father that youonly talk to through his

(22:46):
secretary, like what kind ofattachment style do you have
with that father on earth?
The same way, you know, likeMoses or Abraham are
experiencing completelydifferent version of God because
they're experiencing him inreal time, they're speaking
directly to him, and those arethe lens of which, you know, the
stories of the Bible are told.
And then, if you kind of put itin a modern sense, we've got
the way that we experience Godtoday, which does feel much more

(23:08):
disconnected.
We have way more distraction.
It seems like all three youknow an Israelite through a
priest, abraham, moses, thosecharacters that experienced him
in front of him, and then ustoday, with this bit of
disconnect.
If we're going to be honest,those are three different types
of relationships.
Those are three differentattachment styles, just due to
the level of closeness that'sallowed.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, that's a great point
, but you know what?
Another thing that we can addto this is think about when
Moses or Abraham, when theywould talk to the people right,
let's pick Moses, for example.
The people are seeing Moses'relationship with God, so they
have a template, in a sense ofoh, this is what it looks like.
Right, yes, moses isrepresenting us and he's

(23:50):
speaking on God's behalf and onour behalf, but we're seeing
what a relationship with God canlook like.
And similarly, today we canobserve other people who have a
relationship with God and sayyou know what I want?
That the benefit that we haveis we have direct access to God
when we become saved through hisson, jesus Christ.

(24:10):
Right, so we have that.
When we become believers, so weare able to learn how other
people attach to God, and we canpick up on that and we say, oh,
you know what I was missing.
So, personally, what I wasmissing was the relational piece
.
I had a cognitive understandingof who.
God was.
I grew up in the church, I wastaught scripture, I was taught
doctrine, but I didn't have thatpersonal relationship with

(24:32):
Christ and that's what I saw inother people.
I'm like, how do I get that?
And you know, as we discussed alittle bit, is that sometimes
suffering is what kind of pushesus to seek God in a much more
personal way.
Right, and interestingly, oneof the things that we learn
about attachment is yourattachment system is activated
when you encounter a stressorwithin the relationship.

(24:55):
Right, oftentimes I'll seepeople they'll say something
like oh, I have a secureattachment style and I say, well
, how do you know?
And say, well, you know, wereally get along great and you
know everything's going well andthis, this and that right
Things are positive.
But what happened when you guyshave a conflict?
Well, we haven't had a conflict, okay, well, you kind of have
to wait till that happensbecause the conflict would be

(25:17):
the stressor.
So let's say they have aconflict and all of a sudden the
person just kind of loses it.
They feel anxious, they can'tstop thinking about the problem
that they're having, they wantto fix it right away, but the
other person doesn't want toright.
That's when you see theattachment system activated.
There needs to be a stressorwithin the context of the
relationship for you to see whata person's attachment style

(25:38):
actually is.
So, similarly, in ourrelationship with God, you
understand how your attachmentto God is based on the stressor
that you encounter.
So, for example, let's say theloss of a child or the loss of a
best friend right?
So you lose your best friend.
So there's two responses, maybemore right, but two typical
responses could be god, why didyou allow this to happen?

(26:00):
This is the person that I lovethe most, is the person I've
known for years, and now they'regone.
You're not good anymore, right?
So that would show and avoid anattachment style because they
don't know the person, that God,who he is to them in their life
.
So they pull away A secureattachment would say Lord, I

(26:20):
don't understand why thishappened.
I know that you have a purposebehind it, but right now I'm
really hurting.
Please comfort me.
I don't know what to do withthis situation, but I'm in a lot
of pain and I need you to helpme through this.
Right, that's a secure responsebecause they know that, even
though something bad hashappened in their life, god has
been present and he has beenfaithful and committed to their

(26:43):
good through him.
So that's how you see thereneeds to be a stressor that
activates how one chooses toattach to their, to their god or
to other people in their livesis there an anxious example for
that version?
yeah, so an anxious attachmentstyle could be what did I do
wrong to deserve this lord?
What did I do?
Where did I?

Speaker 2 (27:03):
mess up.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
You decided to take away my, my best friend, or take
away my child.
What did I do?
It had to be.
It was three years ago when Idid that bad thing, right, when
I disrespected this person, orwhen I gossiped about this other
person, or when I lied to myspouse or to this person or to
that person, right All of thesethings.
They start blaming themselvesand trying to find the problem

(27:25):
that they did that made the Lordpunish them in a specific way.
So that is the anxiousobsession They'll look at.
I did something wrong, right,kind of going back to that
negative view of self.
I did something wrong.
I deserve this because I did A,b and C right.
But sometimes life just happensright.
Life just happens sometimes andthere may be no reason behind it

(27:46):
, but it does allow us to seewho we depend on and who we turn
to during times of distress.
And that's the attachment.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, yeah.
This is really illuminating injust the ways that you may have,
or I may have, you know, justlike a flashlight pointing out,
you know, like, how am Ireacting to God when I have that
source of conflict or don't getit what I want, or, you know,
he, he takes away something thatI really wanted or puts me
through something that I, like,really struggled with.
This is amazing.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
Can you think of a person in scripture and see if
we'd be able to figure out whattheir attachment style to God?

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Oh, I like that.
That's a fun game.
I was thinking about Jonah,actually, when you were talking,
because Jonah was so reluctantto go talk to those people and
deliver the message.
Oh gosh, now I can't rememberthe name of the country, but he
didn't want to do it.
The Ninevites, yes, in Ninevehhe got on a ship and went the
opposite direction and even whenhe got there he was like 40

(28:43):
days and the land will fall,like.
He just like said it reallyreally quickly and he just like
did not want to obey God.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
So to me that would tell me that he's avoidant.
Yeah yeah, great illustration.
Great illustration, like thestressor was I want you to send
the message.
And what was his response?
I'm going to avoid it.
You know I don't want to do itRight.
If there was a secure attachment, you trust the person that's
telling you to go send themessage.
If it's anxious, he would havedone a Moses where Moses was
like Lord, I'm not capable, I'mnot worthy, I don't have the
words, I'm not able to speak,right.

(29:14):
So he was putting it on himself.
Moses was, and Jonah, he coulddeliver the message.
He just didn't want to do itRight.
So he was avoidance.
To that situation, moses wouldhave shown kind of like an
anxious attachment style,because he's kind of looking at
himself and saying I'm theproblem, I'm not worthy enough
to go do this, pick someone else, I'm not the person, right.
So it's a me issue, negativeview of self, positive view of

(29:38):
God.
He didn't question God'scharacter in that moment, it was
just it was about me, like I'mnot capable to do what you're
calling me to do, right.
So that would be a natiousattachment style.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
Okay, then would you say, job was secure.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah, job was secure.
Yeah, yeah, job, you could, youcould.
Now he has that.
And here's the cool thing too,right, because there's this
argument happening between Joband God.
Right In a secure attachment,you're able to have those tough
discussions and trust that therelationship is still going to
be okay.
Right, in a secure attachment.
In a secure relationship, youcan have tough conversations,

(30:13):
right, I mean it's the typical.
You can have toughconversations, right?
I mean it's the typical pieceof advice that we receive, right
, like it's not that couplesdon't have arguments, it's how
they have those arguments, likehow do they speak to each other?
What's the tone, what's theposture, all those things.
So you can have a discussion orargument about something and be
respectful and kind, right, andnot fear that you're going to

(30:33):
lose the relationship.
So people who are secure intheir attachment can have those
discussions and know that at theend of it, they still love each
other and they still care foreach other and they're still
going to be there for each other.
An anxious attachment is notgoing to think that they're
going to think what did I dowrong?
Oh no, they're going to leaveme.
I'm not good enough for them.
Oh gosh, why did I say that Ishouldn't have said that, right,

(30:58):
and the avoidance kind of likegoing to be like I don't care,
I'm done with this, I'm betteron my own, I don't need anyone.
So they kind of take thatapproach.
So again, similarly, we carrythose same patterns in our
relationship.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah, that is really interesting.
And Job is almost a littletricky because he goes through
so many emotions of like I'mfaultless, why is this happening
to me?
It almost is like, nope, yougot it wrong, God.
And then when God humbles himin the last chapters, he really
does like you're right.
How could I possibly fathom thereasoning behind what you've
done?
But again, he never questionshis worth or devalues himself.

(31:32):
He really does stand up forhimself and then is able to
humble himself when he realizeshe's in the wrong.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Exactly, and that's a great point.
It's the realization, right?
Because we're human, we makemistakes.
We're not going to be perfectin how we respond, but what you
realize is that after theoffense, they seek
reconciliation, they seekunderstanding.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
And they want to reconnect and reconciliation.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
They seek understanding and they want to
reconnect and that's part ofbeing in a secure relationship.
Yeah, let's talk about the roleof Jesus and kind of how he
broke down and created closenessto God in the ways that maybe
previous Near Easterncivilizations weren't able to do
, because it was through apriest or through Moses or
through Abraham.
But with Jesus that changed,because now it was much closer,
it was the embodiment of God ina person that they could then

(32:16):
experience in real time.
How does that impact therelationship you're still trying
to have with God, the Father,but now you have Jesus in front
of you?
What kind of impact does thathave on the attachment style
you're trying to build with Godwhen you've got the physical
person in front of you?
It's so hard to describe this.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's interesting, because the
biggest prompt the Pharisees andthe Sadducees had with more so
the Pharisees I guess had withJesus was that he claimed to be
God.
Right, that was their bigprompt, the person who had
provided for us, who hadprotected us, who had been there
with us through all of thesedark seasons and centuries right
prior to this time.
You're saying that you're him,right, and that was hard for

(32:55):
them to understand, like theydidn't want to understand.
They didn't understand and youknow.
So Jesus starts talking to themin parables and he starts
modeling for them what therelationship with God the Father
looks like.
Right, he calls God his Father.
So all of these things thathe's doing that's just for
people that are listening to himwas confusing.
It's like who says these things, right?
So when you start talking toNative people, uh, on the prayer

(33:17):
, there were prayers that were,um, that they were already
having the fourth God, right,that everyone had their own
prayer.
But when Jesus was training inthe Garden of Gethsemane and he
says Abba, father and there's alot of conversation around this,
apparently some people think ofAbba as something like Dad or

(33:37):
Daddy or having a community ofagreement.
But when some other scholarswere arguing well, it wouldn't
make sense to say Daddy, father.
Some of the people who werearguing was well, it wouldn't
make sense to say daddy, father,some of the people who were
arguing for what does Abbaactually mean?
So some people were saying, youknow, it's a more intimate way
of communicating with God, it'smore personal, right, it kind of

(33:58):
means dad or daddy, but itdoesn't capture the full effect
of what Abba father means.
Is what other scholars wouldargue, and what they said was is
that Abba doesn't just meandaddy or doesn't just mean dad,
it means father, I will obey you.
And he said Abba is not merelyabout intimacy, it's also about
authority.

(34:18):
And so I'm reading that.
I'm like, wait.
Well, that makes a lot of sense, because when Jesus is having
the prayer in the Garden ofGethsemane, he's saying Abba,
father.
And what does he have to do?
He has to follow Exactly Obey.
To what?
To the point of death, to thecross.
So that makes a lot of sense,right.

(34:38):
And so the implication is thatit's not just the personal,
intimate relation with God, butalso because of that intimate
relationship, I'm going to obeyyou.
And that's what every parentyou know wants.
They want the love plus theobedience, right, and sometimes
we sacrifice one over the other.
There's some parents who gofull obedience and, you know,
don't care about the relationalaspect with their children, and

(35:01):
others just care about the lovepiece, without applying
discipline or demandingobedience, in a sense.
But you got to balance both outright, because when you love
people, you do things that arepleasing to them and what would
please the father is that theson would be obedient to the
point of death, because that iswhat would restore the
relationship of man back to God,the Father back to God.

(35:23):
So those are the implications.
So again, just kind ofrepresenting for us what a
secure relationship is, is thatthe things that you're doing for
each other.
It's a matter of the will, likeyou're choosing to do those
things because you love theperson that you're doing them
for, right?
In a secure relationship youdon't just do things.
You do things that you may notlike, but you do things also

(35:46):
because you love the person,you're committed to the person,
you want to see them happy,right, and I think in culture
today we just kind of miss themark.
Like there's so much emphasison you need to be happy and he
was crying and bleeding andsuffering on the cross, but he

(36:10):
understood that that wasnecessary for us to be restored
to our relationship with him,right?
I don't know if Moses was happyabout being sent to speak to
Pharaoh when he didn't feel hewas capable of doing so.
Jonah definitely wasn't happy.
Abraham wasn't happy to go andsacrifice his son, but he did it
Right.

(36:31):
So there's this love andthere's this obedience, and that
is part of a securerelationship things that we do
for each other because we loveeach other.
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
Beautifully said Sam.
Wow, you were mentioning theway that people prayed, yeah,
yeah.
Beautifully said, sam, Wow, youwere mentioning the way that
people prayed, yeah, yeah, theway that people prayed.
Did that change with the comingof Jesus?
And how he said you know, thisis how you pray our Father, who
art in heaven.
Was that a new concept thatreally, like, showed people the
closeness that they could get toGod, or was that very common?
Do you think?

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Yeah, no, I think it was.
It was.
The prayer itself was common.
I think the biggest distinctionwas this aspect of Abba Father
and what that meant.
It seems like that that wasn'tused.
That part wasn't used as much,I think, because it was a word
from a different language.
Again, my scholarly friendswill have to check me out on

(37:22):
that, but it doesn't seem likeit was too uncommon.
It was just that aspect ofFather.
I will obey you, and also againthe biggest thing, too, was that
the Pharisees just they didn'tlike Jesus in general because he
communicated that he was God,so they didn't like that, even
though he was.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
And also, if you compare, you know how the
pharaohs and the Sadducees, howthey saw God and how Jesus saw
God.
Those are two very differentrelationships.
You know, one knows of God,knows everything about God, but
lacks that intimacy, whereasJesus has nothing but intimacy
but also knowledge.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
And.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
I think that's something that you've spoken
about in the past is there's adifference in the attachment
theory when you know somebodybut don't know them intimately
in the sense of vulnerabilityand communication and closeness?
Could you speak a little bitmore on that?

Speaker 1 (38:12):
Yeah, yeah, let me see.
So there's the question thatwhat leads to secure
relationship with other people,like our knowledge of people?

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, the question is more so the difference in
attachment to those that youjust know versus the difference
in attachment to those thatyou're actually close to.
How do we see God versus how dowe feel about God?
There's a major differencethere.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
Okay, gotcha, yeah, so that touches on two terms
that we see a lot in attachmenttheory, and one is called the
God image and the other iscalled the God concept.
The God image has to do withour experience of God, right?
How do we feel when we talkabout God?
Do you feel anxious?
Do you feel happy, excited,joyful, scared, like what do you

(38:58):
feel about God when you talkabout him or when someone talks
about him?
Right?
So that would be the God image.
The God concept is what we thinkabout God and what we know
about God.
So there's some people thathave a really good God concept
but their God image struggles alittle bit, like they may know a
lot of things about God, butthey fear him because maybe they

(39:18):
rely.
What they know about God isjust that he is a just and
righteous God and that he'sgoing to execute punishment on
those who deserve it.
So they see themselves as thatperson.
So, even though that is part ofgod's character, it's not all
about character, right?
They focus on that part andtherefore they feel scared.
So their god image, theirexperience of god, is fearful.

(39:40):
But their god image is that heis just and righteous and will
to judge.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
So there's other so that would be, I want to say,
like a religion that's reallybased on the rituals of the
religion, versus like the actualrelationship of the religion.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yes, that that's exactly what it is.
So you'll see a lot of that inmore.
Um, can you say religions thathave a lot of practicing or
doing of things?
They legalistic churches.
They will have kind of thatsame concept like good
understanding of God, goodknowledge of God, but their God
image, it struggles, they'revery fearful of God or they only

(40:14):
see God as judgment.
They themselves can be veryharsh, right, that's just kind
of what they experience becausethat's the environment, that's
their culture.
Right, cultural backgroundplays a huge role.
You know, I come from a Latinobackground, so Latinos they, you
know, they tend to be a littlebit more more harsh, more
straightforward, more direct.

(40:36):
And so when you grow up in thattype of environment and you
have your fathers and uncles whoare similar in that way, it
makes sense for us to see God asthat way, like God is tough and
he's strong and he's, you know,if you misbehave he's going to
punish you.
Right, that makes sense.
But that's not all of God'scharacter.
So as we study scripture moreand more, we start to see oh,
but you know what?
God is also patient with me,like I messed up a lot, and he
is so patient with me, like if Iwas my own kid, I would not be

(40:58):
as patient with me, right?
So we have this differentconcept of ourselves and we just
start to appreciate God'spatience a lot more, his mercy,
his grace.
So then we start to have a morefuller understanding of who God
is.
So my God image starts tochange.
My experience of God is notfearful anymore Now.
It's restful Like.
I know that God loves me, Iknow that he cares for me and I

(41:20):
know that the reason why I'mliving my life the way that I do
is because I want to please himand it's not because I fear
that if I don't do A, b and C,that God is going to punish me
in some way, shape or form.
If something bad happens to me,I'm not immediately going to
think well, god is punishing me,and that's typically what an
anxious, attached person woulddo.
God is punishing me because Idid something wrong and that's

(41:43):
why I'm going through this.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Oh my gosh.
So it shows me that having arelationship with God like
although routine and regimentand ritual when it comes to a
relationship with God, incertain religions it serves a
purpose of kind of understandingthe concepts of God from an
educational standpoint.
But when it really gets intothe meat of a relationship and
having that secure attachment toGod, it requires that deeper
level of that relationship, ofhaving closeness and intimacy

(42:10):
and vulnerability, of not just,you know, going to communion,
for example, every single Sundayor going to confession every
single Sunday, but also comingto God outside of those moments,
outside of that regimen androutine.
I'm just going to keep usingthese R words, but going to him
outside of that of like this iswho I am.
It's not that I have to do A, band C to connect with you and

(42:31):
that's how it works.
But I'm just going to pray toyou right now.
I'm just going to you, know,pray to you through a friend.
I'm just going to come to youhumbly.
I guess I'm just referring tolike prayer.
But I mean, am I missingsomething here?
Is it going to differentchurches that create that
intimacy with God and that imageof God would be improved In my
household I feel like it was soclearly distinctive of, like my
mom was non-denominational, allabout the relationship, very

(42:52):
charismatic, all about theprayer, all about the worship,
and maybe that's another example.
And my dad was Russian Orthodox,so it was all routine.
Every church service was thesame, very regimented, and again
, that could just be theirpersonality types and that's why
they both resonated with it.
You know, alongside upbringing,obviously, but if, like
somebody like my dad, wanted togrow closer to God and improve

(43:15):
the God image of who God is, itwould require, you know, going
to church, going througheverything in that service
because he enjoys it, but alsoseeking God personally outside
of that.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yeah, yeah, it really comes to an understanding of
one's emotion, right,background-wise, instead of
Russian or Ukrainian right, andwhat is a common cultural
understanding of what a man or awoman is within those cultures?
That plays a role in it.
Right so, for example, to bestoic, right or to not pay

(43:49):
attention to your emotions, thatperson is going to have a much
different emotional experience,a God image, than someone who
grew up in a house whereemotions were valid and accepted
and expressed and acceptable.
Right so, for someone who'sunemotional, their relationship
with God is going to lookunemotional, right so?

Speaker 2 (44:12):
interesting.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
So their focus on God image is not going to be
necessarily important to them,or it's not going to be a
significant factor for them.
They're going to think thatbecause they just never learned
that, right, you were supposedto be unemotional, so they're
going to focus on the aspects ofGod that are unemotional.
Right?
So the only thing that thatcovers is justice, because

(44:35):
that's supposed to be right downthe middle.
Right?
You need to be fair, so that'sjustice.
You need to execute justice.
You need to express truth.
That makes sense to thembecause there's no emotion tied
to it.
Express truth Like that makessense to them because there's no
emotion tied to it.
But let's say you have someoneelse who grew up in a very
emotional home where feelingswere the main thing, like your
feelings were the most importantthing.
You have to feel happy.

(44:55):
I'm going to do everything thatI can to make you feel happy.
And you come to church and youdon't feel that way.
And if you don't feel that way,what do you think?
You think there's somethingwrong.
You think there's somethingwrong.
You think this is not the Godthat I know.
Right, because there's noemotion involved.
So it could be good doctrine,good understanding of who God is
.
But if you don't feel a certainway, you think that something's

(45:15):
wrong.
Why?
Because you grew up in a homewhere your emotions were the
most important thing.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
This is insane.
I just had a friend come visitme and stay with me and she was,
like, can we go to CatholicMass?
I'm like, yeah, a friend comevisit me and stay with me.
And she was, like, can we go toCatholic mass?
I'm like, yeah, we can totallygo to Catholic.
I don't go to Catholic mass,but like, if that's what you
want, we could, let's go ahead.
There's a really beautifulcathedral here and so we go, we
do the thing.
It's awesome, it's beautiful,but again, very different from
my church.
My church, we are singing,there's a band, there's a

(45:41):
drummer, you know like there's asermon.
It's very emotional.
My church, this church,Catholic mass.
I've been to tons, tons ofmasses, but this one again, like
very routine, unemotional, andI asked her afterwards.
I was like you're not really aspiritual person.
You know, why did you?
Why do you?
Why are you Catholic?
I didn't realize that you werea Catholic at all.
And she, her response wasexactly that.

(46:11):
She's like I just like love,how clear and focused.
And like straightforward thisis.
And I don't think it's sayinglike hers is better, mine is
better.
It just makes sense what youjust said, sam, of like if
that's how you approach religionand like your relationship with
Christ of being something thatis straightforward and focused
and stoic, then, yes, somethinglike Catholic Catholicism or
Russian Orthodox would make moresense for you to go to that
service versus a charismatic ora southern baptist or a
non-denominational church.
Exactly this is blowing my mind, and so it.

(46:33):
It really is that, like nurtureand upbringing and kind of how
you view your attachment styleto religion as a whole is going
to formulate your attachmentstyle to god, and are you going
to have a more seriousrelationship with him or a more
vulnerable relationship with him?
And that's just based on theemotions that you attach to a
God figure.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
Exactly Yep, that's exactly.
And think of all the layersthat we've covered that
influence your God attachment.
We talked about your parents,we talked about authority
figures, we talked about yourbackground, culture-wise, and
then we talk about just modernculture in general.
Then we talk about religiosityand that those are the behaviors
that we do to connect with God,and then we talk about

(47:16):
spirituality, which is what wethink about God, right.
And then so we've covered rightthere, like five, six layers of
things that influence ourattachment to God, not to
mention romantic relationships.
Imagine if you go through aseries of broken relationships.
At some point you start tobelieve that there's something
wrong with you or somethingwrong with other people, right.

(47:37):
And what happens then?
If you have multiple rupturesin your relationship with God,
you start to believe that eithersomething's wrong with God or
something's wrong with you rightand you'll lean one way or the
other.
That's why the example of Jobwas perfect, because he had so
many things happen to him andhad the argument with God and he

(47:58):
realized again that God haddone good.
So so many factors thatinfluence how we view God and
how we view our relationshipwith other people.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Oh my gosh.
And just to bring back in thefather aspect, would you say the
same logic applies to you.
Know, if I'm going to treat myreligion with more stoicism and
seriousness, then I'm going tosee father.
You know the father figure inthat way and in that light as
well.
The same way you know, withemotional vulnerability, the
same type of father and itsounds like kind of before Jesus

(48:27):
, that view of even Abba Fatherwas very stoic, very detached,
but very serious.
And then Jesus brought thatemotion back into it of like a
father you can connect to andspeak to and, you know, relay
your issues to.
He was not so disconnected,he's in front of you.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
Yeah, yeah.
And, cass, you bring up a pointthat we talked about.
I think this was a while back,I don't know if it was on your
live but we talked about thecompensation model and the
correspondence model.
Do you remember that?
Or maybe I briefly touched?

Speaker 2 (48:56):
on it.
Oh gosh, no.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
But this was a concept that kind of speaks to
what you were alluding to.
Is that our relationship withour father?
So my dad was.
He wasn't stoic, but he waskind of like the tough guy, work
provider and protector, right,that was him.
That was my dad.
I almost never saw him cry.
Maybe I seen him cry two orthree times.

(49:17):
So the emotional piece I didn'treally understand in regard to
my relationship with God, right?
So what the compensation modelwould suggest is that whatever I
lacked, seen in my upbringingor in my relationship with God
as a child my relationship withmy dad, I'm sorry as a child,
god would compensate for that byshowing me something different

(49:40):
when I would get older, meaningthat he would show me the other
side, his grace, his love, hispatience, right?
So typically in the research,what you find is people who did
not grow up in a Christian home.
They experienced thecompensation model because when
they come to the Lord later onin life, everything that they
feel that they lacked in theirrelationships with their parents
, god compensates for that byproviding that in their

(50:03):
adulthood, security, gettingtheir needs met, whether that be
through people or when theycome to know the Lord personally
through faith in Christ, sothey feel that God compensates
for all of the lack that theyhave throughout their lives.
Right, so that would be acompensation model.
The correspondence model is moreof whatever your parents
modeled for you growing up, andthis is what we've been talking

(50:24):
about for the most part on ourshow today.
On the show today is thatwhatever your parents modeled
for you, that's going to be thesame way that you're going to
view God when you get older.
So if your parents were harsh,judgmental, critical and all
those things, you're going tosee God as harsh, judgmental and
critical.
But if your parents were kind,patient, loving and

(50:47):
understanding, you're going tosee God as you get older as kind
, patient, loving andunderstanding.
And that's typically for peoplewho grew up in the church, so
they were growing to church.
Their parents go to church.
So whatever their parents modelfor them throughout their
childhood leading into adulthood, that's what they're going to
understand of God as they getolder, so the compensation model

(51:11):
is more so for those thatdidn't get raised in the church.
Yes, yes, in the research that'skind of how they observe it
they usually look at people whodid not grow up in religion or
very little of it.
So when they do come to knowthe Lord, they do encounter
religion.
When they get older, they seeit as a compensation.
Like man, what was I?
I missed out on all of this?
This community prayer, you knowall of these things that I

(51:33):
needed as a child and now I'mreceiving it as an adult.
So they feel like they've beencompensated in their
relationship with the Lord forthings that they didn't have in
their childhood.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
There have been so many topics covered in this one
episode I don't even know whatto name it.
To be honest, I feel like mymind's been blown.
So thank you for shedding somuch insight into the different
levels of relationships that wecan have with the Lord.
Sam, I really really appreciatethe time here.
Also, I'm really excited forall of the episodes that are
coming out soon with Psych andTheo.
I'm very excited to see theepisode come out with God

(52:03):
Attachment Healing.
What kind of episodes andtopics are you going to be
covering for both of thosepodcasts coming out that anybody
listening and they want tolearn more that they can look
forward to?

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Yeah, well, thank you for the shout out.
I really appreciate that.
So Tim and I are currentlyworking on a number of series
for Psych and Theo and we'recurrently on break.
So we finished season one,we're gonna move into season two
in a couple of weeks and we'redoing a series on manhood.
We're talking about somecontroversial topics.
We're doing one on abortion umwhat else are?

(52:32):
We talking about.
Oh yeah, that's gonna be,that's gonna be you guys are
fearless on this podcast.
Oh my gosh you know it's, it'sthe topic conversations that
people are having, but theydon't have these two.
That's true.
The whole purpose of ourpodcast was exactly that to
speak about it from what are thepsychological effects of
abortion and what are thetheological implications of this

(52:54):
as well, right, so there arethose things that people don't
like to talk about, but when wedo talk about it, we gain so
much insight and understanding.
What does the Bible actuallysay and what does the research
actually talk about the effectson unassessed people?
Right?
So I'm saying so, we try totackle these topics that are
difficult, I think, for mostpeople to have.
But you know, obviously, withtim and I, we've created the the

(53:17):
culture, I guess, within ourpodcast, of being able to
discuss these issues, andobviously some people don't like
some of our topics that we didone on gender identity and that
was popular, but you know it iswhat it is.
Those are the conversationsthat we need to have.
So those are a couple of thingsthat we'll be talking about.
On Psych and Theo, and, inregard to God, attachment
healing, I'm finishing up theattachment styles.

(53:39):
This week I'll do thedisorganized or the fearful
avoidance, and then next weekI'll have the one I did with you
, and we'll talk about God,attachment and parental
upbringing.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
Yep, yep, that's so exciting and I agree, I think
that Psych and Theo is amazing,just the fact that you guys can
dive into these biblical aspectsand say, well, listen, this is
what the theology says about itand this is what the psychology
says about it.
And, at the end of the day, howoften do you get a psychologist
and a theologian talking abouta topic in a very calm and

(54:10):
well-informed and educatedmanner?
So it actually is a productivediscussion.
It's not who's right and who'swrong.
You guys are simply saying youknow, this is what the Bible
says and this is what the datashows.
And if you're trying to growcloser to Christ, christ, this
is kind of what we suggest isthe best direction.
But there's no hierarchy ofright and wrong coming out of
either one of you guys.
When you're, you know,discussing these topics that are

(54:30):
very hot and um, I appreciatethe space for it because I think
it's what we exactly need yeah,yeah, and cast, and the thing
about this too.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
these two fields, they would not be anywhere near
each.
They were always clashing witheach other.
It was always like what are youtalking about?
You shouldn't be talking abouthuman development because you
don't understand the psychologybehind it.
And they would say well, youdon't understand how God created
us, so there should be nopsychology in the church.
Why even talk about that?
Right?

(54:58):
So it's kind of mirroring thesetwo things together and showing
that these two things can existwithin a Christian context and
we could understand what theimplications are, right?
So it's all the topics that arehappening in culture and again,
we're just trying to shed lighton these two areas of our
fields so that people can have afull understanding of it.

(55:20):
And I think- Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
And Psychan and Theo, oh no, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Yeah, and I think I shared this with you yesterday.
Regarding God attachmenthealing, is that now because I'm
going to use it more so as myresearch space I'm kind of
transitioning into?
I'm still have attachmentattached to it, but I'm also
going to add forgiveness, shameand a couple of other and
religious doubt, religiouscoping.
So those are going to be somenew themes and new topics that

(55:45):
you're going to see on God ofDestiny as well.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
That's amazing.
And you guys aren't just onSpotify, you guys are on
Instagram, but am I missinganything?
Are you guys on Apple?
Are you guys on TikTok?
Youtube?

Speaker 1 (55:54):
We're going to start doing YouTube, so yeah, so once
we get that down, hopefully weget our social media managers
soon and hopefully we'll be ableto put out more content in
different places.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
Good for you guys.
Well, I I'm going to need amoment to honestly digest
everything that we've discussed,sam.
So thank you for just sheddinglight on things that I would
have never had this conversation, how we not spoken.
I really appreciate it.
I feel like you've illuminateda lot of different aspects of
you know the relationship andkind of relationship we can have
with God.
But do you have any final wordson just like encouragement?
I mean, maybe people that arelike I'm totally anxious, am I

(56:27):
doing religion wrong or I haveto?
Just a good concept of God butnot a good image.
You know, if somebody islistening to this and maybe
feeling a little disheartenedthat they're not doing it
emotionally as close as theypossibly can what would be your
final message to them?

Speaker 1 (56:48):
no, that's a great, great question.
I think one of the things thatI would encourage them is to
find people who who you deem assecure in their relationship
with god and who also havesecure relationship with other
people.
Because the way you correct ananxious attachment style or an
avoidant attachment style is bybeing exposed to more secure
relationships.
So you know, remember in schoolwe had that one friend who was
trying to make friends withmaybe the ones who were excluded
from the big groups and so on.

(57:08):
Like that person, all it tookwas that person to invite them
over to a game or invite themover for a party or to a get
together and all of a suddenthat person who was excluded
feels part of the group.
Now, right, it took one secureperson to help this person over
here who was excluded to feelnow as part of the group.
So the way that you kind ofcorrect the anxious or avoidant

(57:30):
attachment style is moreexposure to secure people.
But, with that being said, youhave to develop a sense of um, a
willingness to engage, becausesometimes when you engage with
secure people, you feel so theanxious person feels a little
bit more intimidated by it, like, wow, this person has a lot of
friends, they get along well,they're productive, so they
might feel a little bitintimidated by that.

(57:52):
So if you're an anxiouslyattached person, I would say
it's okay, that's part of yourattachment style.
Continue to engage.
You just kind of have to breakout of that discomfort and be in
that discomfort for a littlebit.
And as you practice that moreexposure more and more you'll
start to learn the secureattachment behaviors and again
then you'll be able to practicethem.
For the avoidant, it's reallyjust kind of developing,

(58:14):
overcoming the sense of trust,like they don't trust people
easily.
So they might see a securelyattached person and be like, eh,
I think something's off withthat person, they can't have
that many friends, theyshouldn't be that successful,
right, and plus, I'm successful,I don't need another friend, I
don't need them right.
So for that person I wouldencourage kind of the same thing
.
It's like you know, give them achance, just try and see what

(58:35):
can develop from thatrelationship and you'll start to
see what actually security canlook like, that People security
can look like, that People canbe trusted.
It takes time and they willtake some time.
And, yeah, just expose yourselfmore and see if you can find
people that you would want to bewith, people that you like,
people that show that secureattachment and once you get that
exposure, transfer that over toyour relationship with God.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Wow, that is a beautiful place to end.
Thank you so much, sam.
I can't wait to listen on.
Psych and Theo and GodAttachment Healing.
I can't wait to have you back.
Let's find another reason to doa live or an episode, because
this conversation shouldn't stop.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Absolutely.
I'm always open for you, allright.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
We'll talk soon.
All right, thanks you.